The Problems with Clara
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- Опубліковано 29 вер 2024
- Having now gotten far enough into my rewatch of modern era Doctor Who to be done with Jenna Coleman's time as Clara Oswald, I feel like I should put a final button on the character. Honestly, I probably don't need to do this, but I'm trying to cleanse myself of this baggage so I can finally move the heck on. Yeah right, as if I've ever done that. Oh well, here we go anyways as I clarify, to the best of my abilities, my issues with what I can't help but feel is Steven Moffat's most frustrating creation for Doctor Who.
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Massive respect to Jenna Coleman in Series 7, she had play what: seven, eight different characters all in all?
And then she played two more characters with series 8 and series 9! /joke
John Simm had to play every role minus a few in parts of the David Tennant swan-song...Jenna playing 7-8 roles ain’t got nothin on that!
@@waz207 John Simm certainly was a strange casting for Barack Obama but I think he pulled it off well
what do you mean by that?
Well done on her but it still is a reason why her character is bad
Her outfits are always really cool though. We can't take that away from her.
I’ve wanted to cosplay Oswin Oswald for years.
Robot of Sherwood......
Very true
She had the coolest style, if i liked skirts i would wanna dress like her all the time omg
Canonical: Clara is the Office.
That "MOAR ADVENTURE" was very Sea Hawk
I believe it is true: In the recent Christmas issue of Doctor Who magazine they look in depth at Last Christmas and how Clara (now old) was going to die in her grans home but in a dream state she would think of all the lives her splinters lived. There was an extract of how Moffat had written it.
“The readthrough script was written as Clara’s original exit, diverging from the final version entirely.
Originally the scene cut to outside, with the Doctor returning to his Tardis after the scene with him and old Clara at Christmas. He made a ‘call me’ signal up to Clara, looking down from her window. The Tardis dematerialised and the picture dissolved to the aged Clara, asleep in bed, ‘smiling faintly’ The picture dissolved to young Clara dressed as Oswin, climbing the spiral staircase into the sky as seen in ‘the snowmen’. As she passed a pillar, she became the ‘barmaid’ Clara, then the ‘governess’. A few more steps and she’s CLARA, as we’ve recently known her, still excited, still looking around. This is the best dream. The Tardis whizzes past the stair case and Clara stops, waves frantically, as the Tardis spins among the stars. Clara smiles as she watches it go and then the picture fades to black. Implying that the old Clara had been seeing her lives flash before her eyes at the end.”
I do wonder why that same exit idea couldn’t have been used in series 9 but who knows. I don’t mind Clara but my biggest issue was her domestic side. Each series it felt different and never had a consistency. It’s a flaw of Moffat’s companions sadly.
I imagine that if it would have been done that scene could have been beautiful.
i actually love that so much but it would've been so sad 🥺
The issue is that the last few seasons, starting with halfway through 11a arc, everything has to be super special. Like River Song, same issue. There can’t just be a companion, they have to be the most special person in the universe
Clara is easily the one companion I downright dislike (at least in the newWho, haven't watched the classic series), but weirdly that wasn't the case when she was with Matt Smith. Can't say I loved her or anything, but I had no problems with her either. I started to dislike her only when Capaldi entered to the picture. Maybe Smith was able to bounce off her better and/or Moffat hadn't fallen in love with his own creation too much yet and therefore wasn't pushing to the audience's face so much how awesome she was supposed to be, but I really started to root for her to leave during the series 8 and didn't feel bad at all when she "died."
This is how I feel about it too
I'm not an analyst. On top of this, I've only been into Dr. Who for maybe two years so far. My favorite part of Dr. Who that I've watched and rewatched so far is from the beginning of the 11th Doctor to the end of the 12th Doctor. So basically, we're talking about 4 pairings of doctors and companions 11 with Amy/Rory; 11 with Clara; 12 with Clara; 12 with Bill Nardole. I think the whole thing is Steven Moffat, right? So that means that my favorite show runner is a highly unpopular show runner/writer, hated only second to Chris Chibnall. Then, my favorite pairing, and therefore my favorite episodes are the ones with the 12th Doctor and Clara Oswald. Then ranking the rest would be Amy/Rory with 11, Clara with 11, and finally Bill/Nardole with 12. There are ups and downs to me in all eras and with all pairings throughout the modern era. I realize that. All I can say is that while I enjoy watching analysis and thinking about what people say a little bit, in the end it's not analysis that makes or breaks the show for me, so unapologetically, I suspend all belief and critical analysis when I'm watching these stories. I just like them. They make me laugh, and cry. They draw me in. They bring me more joy in TV watching than any other thing on TV ever has. I like the whole modern era, but I will probably spend more time in my life rewatching Dr. Who, from "Eleventh Hour" through "Twice Upon a Time", than any other TV that I'm likely to be confronted with. In the end I watch analysis videos just so I can get even more mention and acknowledgement of this phenomena that has happened to me over the past couple of years. Even bad or negative talk about Moffat, 11, 12, Clara, Amy, Rory, Bill and Nardole is at least more manifestation of these wonderful phenomena into the world, so thank you for that. In the end, I love this era and these characters and these stories because, well, I do.
Clara was created as a plot device. Once that plot ran its course, they had to create an actual character for her. They mainly relied on telling us about her rather than showing.
EXACTLY!!!
@Najawin I was wondering when you would get here... how does it feel to be recognised, 19:23?
I want it on record that I mentioned releasing this video was a bad idea
@Najawin "She was literally created as a subversion of treating characters as plot devices."
Do you have anything to support this statement?
@Najawin Maybe she wasn't talking about just you. She also mentioned other things like things Moffat said or other readings. Bit disingenuous of you not to regard that :)
@Najawin Just saying the headcanon point wasn't about you, don't know why you thought it was
I feel like she could have been great, she had a lot of wasted potential.
She could’ve been so interesting. Someone who the Doctor meets on their adventures and is always a different character... but no, Moffat just had to squander that chance.
Yes. This exactly. After the Snowmen I assumed that was what was going to happen.
Would have given Jenna brilliant opportunities to act, and driven the Doctor to despair as he began to realise that every time it happened she would die and that there was nothing he could do to save her: until of course, he found the “core Clara” the one who began it all.
@@stevetayler9518 plus, Moffat could’ve made her any character, she didn’t have to be an audience surrogate because we were introduced to her through the Doctor. She could have been anyone, but Moffat just had to go with the template.
I don’t think he did. Clara entered the doctor’s entire time stream. It’s entirely possible that they could bring some version of Clara back for every future Doctor. IMHO
That would be absolutely awful no disrespect, there would have been no character development or growth in her and the Doctor’s relationship and it would have gotten old veeeery quickly to see the companion die every episode
@@nicolas-pk would be a lot interesting than what we got.
Out of all the companions of New Who, I found Clara to be the most forgetable. Literally. I don't remember her role in half the episodes she's been in, she was that bland to me. All other companions I can assign one defining quality, but with Clara? As you said, she was a plot device for Mofatt to furiously boast about how clever his twists are. While Clara isn't the cause of Mofatt's overly complex storylines, to me, she is the epitome of it. Started out with an interesting mystery as a Dalek, but then lost all steam as the episodes ticked by.
As with you, I won't bemoan anyone who likes Clara. If she means something to someone, that's valid. Her character just never stuck with me.
I love hell bent but I’m honestly kind of meh on Clara: You don’t get a second chance at a first impression. Or second chance at a third impression, as they tried with the Impossible Girl.
I will also say, Moffat has numerous flaws as a writer and I feel that his handling of Clara bundles a lit, if not all of them together: companion who lives the Doctor (and meets him as a child); gratuitously faulty LGBT+ representation; too many death fake outs because “Everybody Lives!” was so good he kept at it (forgetting that it works because it doesn’t always turn out so well!); making the Doctor feel the centre of the universe; complexity addition that masks simplicity and feels wasted... and so on.
For all Chibnall’s faults as showrunner and writer, he doesn’t TIRE me like Moffat does.
The issue is Jenna didn’t leave when she was supposed to, last Christmas or day of the doctor would of been good exits. season 8 and 9 feel tagged on because why she’s there had been done and dusted. I liked her but the series after the 7th just don’t make sense and they had to write something
I really liked her at the start then went downhill when, she thought she could be the doctor and taking too many chances and it blowing up in her face.
I love Clara and i liked her arc. Just to conform with your view on people either loving or hating.
Classic Who 'mystery box' companion. Ace.
New Who 'mystery box' companion. Clara.
Is Ace's mystery box pivotal to the story? Nope. Does it make her more important to the story? Nope. Do you even notice it's a mystery until the story where it's exposed and resolved? Nope. Does it make sense? Yep. And it didn't lessen the character.
For Clara you can answer 'yep' to ALL of those points. And it DID lessen the character. And then she became a teacher. Not a teaching assistant. A Teacher in a Comprehensive school. As Ian Chesterton was on the board, the Doctor may have pulled strings. Otherwise, there's no way in heck without a teaching degree we never knew she had.
Clara was the reason I passed my English speaking exam. It was during series 7. We could pick on subject what we like so naturally I picked Doctor Who. During the Q&A section at the end we got focused on Clara and I had plenty of points to make which impressed the examiner so I'm pretty happy with her for that at least 😂
The biggest problem with Clara that I have is that she is essentially a giant control freak Ableist. Both Smith's and Capaldi's doctors show characteristics that are very autistic in nature. And every time he does something like that, especially with Capaldi, Clara calls it out as problematic and it is written off as a joke. She never lets the poor guy be himself. She also uses the doctor specifically for his trips. Getting upset if he doesn't o it her way (which the show actually enforces). It's like the doctor is her personal toy and the doctor is through oblication to Clara forced to go along with it. Her "death" and the doctor trying to get her back (which she again scolds him for) feels like something from Stockholm Syndrome. He never had shown to be as attached to other companions who treated him way better
Stopping after the S7 rant.
In S7 (After the alternate versions) Clara was characterised with not really knowing what to do with her life, and failing at what she wanted to do (the book about travel and the leaf) -looking for an escape. 11 was that escape.
She was caring, but a risk-taker (looking after the kids, but then taking 11 in, even if it was in poor circumstances).
Her life felt repetitive, mundane and she was ordinary (ironic, as she is literally not ordinary) - she was fed up. So when 11 kept prodding at her life and made her sound interesting to herself, she took interest hence the flirting (not really flirting IMO, more banter).
I got that from what, the first 20 minutes in her first episode in modern-day. I'll edit this comment as I go through the video.
I know people have opinions, but I always get a little mad when people disagree with my opinions. And then I feel bad about it, and I really love Clara
I'm one of the people who are indifferent with Clara but I think you're right about it face the raven was the perfect exit for her and then they messed it up I also want to say that I love your rewatch and your Doctor who review are how I found your videos so I hope you don't stop doing them and I look forward to your series 10 videos because I'm a big Bill Potts fan anyway thank you I love your videos
I didn't like Clara because I have felt that a companions job is to be us the audience, to ask what's going on to be our amazement and wonder they are meant to be "Doctor there's a giant 50 foot animated statue coming up the street what's going on ?" while the doctor is meant to be "What another 50 foot animated statue it's the ...." Clara lost that and lost me.
On S7 Clara- I really really wish we had gotten Victorian Clara!!! I might be misremembering, but I feel like that was the plan once upon a time? And then we get to the end of series 7 (confusing ending, what even happened), and at the start of Day of the Doctor she's a teacher now?? That's probably the most egregious moment of not being clear with fleshing her out, but goodness it was rough.
What i think is so funny about s8 and 9 is that her character is infinitely better than in s7 because she has one single character flaw but most humans have multiple character flaws. Steven moffat rlly has no idea how to write women
It seems to me that what you said about how Clara treats Danny echoes how Gwen treated Rhys in Torchwood, and how Rose treated Mickey in the first modern series. Not a good representation of women throughout the Whoverse, I think.
Funny how you bring up how deaths in superhero comics seem trivial. I'm sick of deaths that are prophesied ahead of time where the Doctor can't stop it. And then they undo it. It happens over and over again. If you never kill a companion we can't take these threats seriously.
You know, if I was writing Series 7 and I wanted to keep the Impossible Girl arc, keep some of the multiple introductions to Clara but also give her a good character, here’s how I’d probably do it.
I’d have Amy and Rory leave at the end of Series 6 (as much as I love them, I think Series 7 would have worked better without them and I didn’t really feel their character arcs or dynamic as much in 7A as much as before) and introduce Modern Clara straight at the beginning of the series. Use the first half of Series 7 just focusing on her character, don’t bring in the mystery or the other versions of her, just build her character and relationships. Come the end of the first half, have her leave temporarily (maybe they have an argument like Kill the Moon?) and in the Xmas special have the Doctor meet another version of her (Victorian version.) who dies. That then starts the story arc and mystery in full until the finale.
To me, that would allow you to both have a fully realised character and have the mystery of your series be one of the character (It’s just a matter of building a strong character before the mystery). I’m sure other people have thought this as well, as it just seems quite obvious to me.
You’re not wrong - but some Clara therapy would likely help 🤪 Like you, I found Victorian Clara a delight and wish THAT version would have been the companion; maybe after Smith first crossing paths with contemporary Clara, so as to keep the “impossible girl” setup intact.
So, yeah... I may be that rare Whovian who is basically neutral about Clara. I can grant you all the points you make, she’s not in my top tier of companions. That said... I generally kinda like her character and I do adore Jenna and see her charm in the role. She worked better with 12 than with 11 for me. But I don’t feel super strongly in loving or hating her. She was, for me, fine. 🤷🏻♀️
It was actually stated by Moffat in an interview that he wanted Victorian Clara to be the full time companion but it didnt happen something to do with the beeb!
Im pretty sure they put in Marty's defiance of being called chicken in the previous films. Especually in part two in the final showdown with young biff thats used as a charcter arc for Marty in part three
It appears out of nowhere in part two after never coming up in part one.
@@CouncilofGeeks I get what you mean but you can see Marty's recklessness in his behaviour and how easily hes ready to fight Biff in the first one. Its like a subtle character trait he has, Marty's hot-headed, will not take any shit and it gets more addressed in the later films
@@CouncilofGeeks I remember being mystified at the time, to the point I thought maybe I'd forgotten it from the first movie. It didn't seem in character at all for what we knew of him.
Series 7 Clara is my least favourite version of Clara, if we'd got Victorian Clara (with consistent characterisation) then she'd likely have been a well loved companion, but modern day Clara felt weak as a character. Series 8 Clara is a vast improvement though it very much feels like Moffat was constantly trying to assert that she was perfect while simultaneously showing that she's very capable of being a morally questionable person. Series 9 Clara for the most part to me felt like a wonderful idea for a character, the idea of a companion trying to be the Doctor is a fun idea and showing that it's not a good plan made Clara as a companion feel much more interesting finally, but yeah... they 100% messed up the ending of Clara's story with Hell Bent...
I think the worst thing about Clara is that she has those episodes where she is an interesting character, but then they always backtrack. You can see the potential and then it's like they chose the worst possible way they could think of to continue her story. If Clara was just a bland audience surrogate, the story could have focused on other things. I liked her ending, but would have prefered the one from face the raven and maby then draw a parallel between the doctors grief and her grief for Danny.
I liked modern Clara. I LOVED "Asylum of the Daleks" Clara and "The Snowmen" Clara. I also just love Jenna Coleman--may I reference "Victoria" here? *smile*
So, perhaps the reason I liked Clara was solely because of Jenna?
Anyway, there were things that bothered me in the modern Clara iteration, but as you noted, it was in the writing, not the acting of Ms. Coleman.
1. The biggest nitpick: After the events of "The Name of the Doctor, the whole "Impossible Girl" storyline just disappeared in the ether. It was never mentioned again. You would have thought that living multiple lives over hundreds (thousands?) of years would have left some kind of residual effect on her? Made her a little nuts for a while, schizophrenic even? I really wish there had been something...references dropped in dialogue, especially after Capaldi came on.
2. Clara's behavior in "Deep Breath" when it came to the Doctor's regeneration, and expecting, no DEMANDING, that he be Matt Smith again. Um, she met two other iterations of the Doctor, i.e., David Tennant and John Hurt. Are we supposed to believe that the memory of what happened in "The Time of the Doctor" was erased? Why? Tennant and Hurt's Doctors (and Eccleston, too, since Hurt immediately started regenerating into him) wouldn't remember because the events of the TTotD happened in their future (timey-whiney wibbly-wobbly acceptable explanation), but the events happened in Clara's present, and, by the time of "Deep Breath," were in her past, i.e., memories. So the bafflement as to why the Doctor had a new face doesn't work.
3. How did Clara go from being a nanny to being a thoroughly licensed teacher? We never saw or heard any reference to her studying for the degree.
Such a shame they didn’t keep Victorian Governess Clara.
In fact, I think it was a missed opportunity that the second half of Season 7 (after the Snowmen) wasn’t set in Victorian times.
Imagine, just a few tweaks to the stories, we could have had 8 episodes of the Paternoster Gang, of the absolutely magical, iconic image of the TARDIS in the clouds, of a character arc for the 11th Doctor as he slowly recovers from the grief of losing the Ponds.
Plus, the mystery of Clara could have been much better served if Governess Clara was the constant companion but in every episode we met a ‘shard’ Clara as well, who died saving the Doctor.
Okay, that might have been a bit ‘oh my god you killed Kenny’ but that analogy was there anyway.
It would have been awesome!
Agreed! Governess Clara should have been a companion!
Yes, I’m in the Victorian Clara should have been the companion (but also just ditch the impossible girl thing) camp.
Holy crap that's such a great pitch that I almost wonder if that was almost going to be the plan before, like production issues or something. Series 7 does feel like the type of media that feels messy as a result of production hell, so I wouldn't be surprised if they just straightup said that was the initial plan lol
Now that is something I would’ve much rather seen the second part of series 7 be about.
The thing is I can't even imagine there to be a budget issue with that version, because you could literally do everything in the same way, maybe have one or two more stories in Victorian London (for which they clearly already had a set!) so I really can't fathom why they didn't do that. If you really wanted to have three different Claras (although I agree that the Impossible Girl thing should have been scrapped altogether) you could have made the boring modern Clara the second splinter. If you want to go around bringing her back in Hell Bent but still like the "Doctor telling a story" vibe, you know how you could have solved that? Making the waitress!Clara another splinter (which they already set up! it was so easy to do that! why the hell not?)
The problem with Clara isn't Jenna Coleman, it's Steven Moffat.
THIS!
This comment needs to be pinned, near perfectly said
Agreed. Moffat is my favourite Doctor Who writer despite the harm his series arcs did to the show, but Clara might be his biggest failure.
@Najawin If he fails to get audiences to understand the character then he's failed the character, not trying to be the "your opinion is OBJECTIVELY wrong >:((((" guy bc that's always annoying, but a good chracter should be complex while still managing to be appreciated by its audiences, in one way or another
@Najawin I'd disagree, art is nothing without an audience, and I don't think it's possible for the audience to have any truly "wrong" interpretations/reactions to an artwork, generally speaking.
Also the problem with Clara's character isn't that she's used as a mystery box, the problem is that the mystery box element overshadows any attempt at giving her an entertaining or memorable personality, which should always be the #1 focus imo. Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS attempts to tell the audience that she should still be a character on her own and not just a mystery box, but that's not gonna work if she just... doesn't have much personality.
Again if you found her entertaining then that's completely valid and all, these are just my issues that many who also have mixed or negative thoughts on Clara might share
Jenna leaving twice would have not been any problem at all if they remembered the whole thing about there being MULTIPLE Claras spread across time and space. Clara leaves, Jenna stays on as another Oswin. Oswin leaves, Jenna stays on as another Clara. The already HAVE this mechanic as being a thing in the series.
I mean it could have been but since the Doctor didn’t die on Trenzalore, that means that the timeline can’t end up being jumped into... even though Clara already has...
Hmm... now I’m not sure if there could be fragments of Clara everywhere or not.
I'm so glad someone liked the Governess too! It's not Coleman at all, Moffat simply can't write women as actual people. Coleman is doing what she can with the material she had.
I used to love Clara but that was just because I'm a raging lesbian
Idk man that sounds kinda gay
I’m a lesbian too, I just happen to be male. 😝
haha relatable. it's me trying to navigate whether clara is my favourite because im attracted to her or whether i actually like her because of her character. the lines blur. 😂
@@jackochainsaw wow you are so funny wow.
The Impossible Girl arc was literally the Bad Wolf story with a person instead of a meme.
But Bad Wolf became a Person and The Impossible Girl never was addressed again...
And the hybrid was just the doctor donna
The main problem I had with Face the Raven was when Clara died I felt nothing for her death because according to the show she left three times in Kill the Moon, Death in Heaven, and Last Christmas. By the time Face the Raven, unlike Rory and Army which I felt legitimately sad when they died with I didn't Clara because of all those fake departures
well i mean amy and rory lived full lives before dying
I cried. I actually skipped over her death scene shown in this clip. I still can't accept it.
I have a Dalek-esque hatred towards the Timelords. Yes, Clara was reckless, but it was they who set that trap. So long as they don't undo this, I will always hold them in contempt.
Oswin's death affected me more than Clara's for sure for that very reason
I don't like Clara but my dislike depends on what season she being written. Jenna Coleman is great actress.
"This should me my last word on Clara"
Until she reappears in the 60th☺️
I mentioned this in the live chat but honestly I've been thinking lately that there's a pretty good chance of this. She had a pretty notable run so people would be familiar with her, worked with two Doctors so if they're coming back it would make sense and Jenna isn't too busy that she couldn't make the time.
@@defrostedrobot77 I don't think Jenna would return to the show honestly, considering how badly the fandom treated her for playing a fictional character. such a shame :(
@@EmpireEmployeeRick I don't think she would let the hate get to her too much. There was still a lot of love for her out there (and she did return for Twice Upon a Time). And people could be pretty negative about Rose too but Billie returned as The Moment for Day of the Doctor. We'll just have to see what Chibs has in mind I guess.
she also is in twice upon a time as a cameo
@@Venemofthe888 yes. Let's see if she can can through that review without mentioning her 😊
Your absolutely right about Moffatt being in love. River Song, Amy _and_ Clara; say what you want about Chibnall, I've never got the feeling he's just putting his Waifu's on National television.
That would actually imply or require he cared about Yaz.
I think that's because Chibnall doesn't put love into his characters. That's why they're so lifeless
I go back and forth on Clara. I lost my husband a few years ago, and I identified with the Doctor seeing her in Hell Bent because that happened to me after my husband died. I saw him in people I saw out in public, I talked to him when I was asleep, I imagined him sitting in the car next to me when I was driving. It helped me process my grief.
And the best thing about Clara's flaw in S9 is: not only does it get foreshadowed in S8, it's actually a direct extension of her main flaw from S8. She's a control freak. Everything WILL work the way she plans. She's the one who sets the schedule. Being second fiddle to a force of chaos like the Doctor is not her style but she likes the adventures, so she'll match him and do things her own way. And so she moves on from manipulating Danny to trying to match the Doctor in his field... and doesn't measure up, because of course she doesn't. Not even the Doctor measures up to the Doctor, or we wouldn't be on the second regeneration cycle already. And Clara had only one life to lose.
That makes better sense. I didn't feel like the writer was writing her as having a flaw, though I see it as a flaw. I thought from Moffat's perspective (and the trendy attitude of the time) was that any abusive behavior from Clara is justified because she's female and that makes physical abuse OK if it's toward a male character. That's how I read it and why I stopped watching the show. I hope her verbal and physical abusive bahvior was meant as a character flaw, though considering when it came out I doubt it.
@Mystefier moffat loves making woman smack people as a #girlboss moment. The man could not write a healthy dynamic with a woman if he tried
Also couldn’t agree more on Moffat falling in love with his own character, but I’d go as far to say that he falls in love with his own stories as a whole, post series 5. He’s even gotten worse over the years. Hell, just look at the last episode of Dracula.
The last episode of Dracula was the most surreally "Look how deep and clever I am. I'm such a good writer. I love this character." things I've ever seen.
It felt obnoxious and totally not self aware
This makes me glad that I never watched Dracula. Other than that, I absolutely agree. Moffat loves himself and his writing. All his Characters are the greatest, all his Stories are the best and all his Dialog is big and epic. I mean no offense towards the Guy, he IS talented, but he is very aware of that and also seems to see himself and his creations as the best of all. I hated that his Doctors had to be "President of the World" and overblown Stuff like that.
@ThePandoricaOfFandoms omg same
It was such a disappointment seeing it tail spin after such a hot start
Yeah, after having already seen Doctor Who under his watch and Sherlock, I made three predictions going in to Dracula. The first episode would stunning, amazing, everything you thought you wanted from Dracula. The second episode would still have elements of that, but something would feel off. And the third episode would be downright awful.
I have never made such accurate predictions before or since.
I liked her in the beginning, then she felt like she was taking the Doctors role - then the nearly decade long arc of the Doctor finally arriving back on Gallifrey... was completely pushed aside and ruined just to save Clara. hated that.
very true
The Doctor actually reflected how I felt about what happened to Clara. He pretty much hoisted the Time Lords up by their collars. I would have, too, to be honest.
I think her trying to take The Doctor's role was almost the point. I liked how it showed the darker aspects of being a companion, and it made her death extremely resonant, because it was entirely as a result of her own character flaws, and would not have happened if she had not tried to act as The Doctor. It showed clearly that The Doctor is not just about being assertive and hoping for the best. The Doctor knows the risks of what they do, and has obviously paid the price multiple times. The difference is that The Doctor can regenerate, but Clara is human and only has one chance. It was a straight case of "play stupid games, get stupid prizes", and it made it just that more tragic, because she was just trying to emulate the man who had become her hero.
The issue for me was Hell Bent. Imo, The Doctor should never have truly succeeded in saving Clara. My vision of Hell Bent was literally the title. I wanted to see a dark, completely unleashed Doctor who was willing to do anything to save Clara. Think Ten's Timelord Victorious but cranked up to 11, with Peter Capaldi let loose. It should have been the explosive other side of the coin to the quiet and introspective Heaven Sent. I think The Doctor should have resorted to increasingly dark and dangerous measures to get Clara back, stooping lower and lower, until he finally comes face to face with Clara herself, extracted from
the moment of her death in the way she gets brought back in the actual episode. The climax of the episode should have been Clara basically taking the role of Adelaide Brooks, telling The Doctor that what he is doing is wrong, and that she is furious at him for breaking his promise to her and trying to take revenge, basically re-teaching him the lessons he tried to teach her, and capping off the whole "Am I a good man?" theme of 12's run. A good man is not inherently good. A good man is someone who makes the difficult choice to put others above himself, and constantly checks his own behaviour.
The episode should have ended with Clara just reiterating to The Doctor in that frozen moment that he was HER Doctor, and he taught her to never be cruel or cowardly... etc. and giving him one last tearful hug goodbye before going to her death again. The Doctor, having basically held Gallifrey at gunpoint, now surrenders and willingly goes back into exile on Earth, this time at Bristol University. He is still allowed his Tardis, but on one unrevealed condition. This condition would later be revealed to be that the Doctor is forced to act as the prison guard for The Master/Missy for the rest of time, with him personally electing to try rehabilitating her, against the express wishes of Gallifrey, adding some extra conflict to him starting to occasionally release her in Series 10.
In my opinion, great writing focuses on characters first over plot, while still ensuring that every action in the plot has a purpose and a consequence, and bringing Clara back by cheating and making The Doctor forget her, was a disservice to the story arcs of both Clara and The Doctor. Clara lost her heroic sacrifice because she was able to indefinitely postpone it, allowing her to avoid the ultimate consequences of her actions, which undercut the climax of Face the Raven. Meanwhile The Doctor got to avoid his guilt and grief in a finale which both thematically and story-wise undercut the incredible Heaven Sent, allowing The Doctor to save Clara with no real negative consequences for his actions within the story other than the memory loss, while also giving him an easy justification for leaving Clara, for whom he just spent 2 billion years punching down a wall to save. The payoff didn't match the investment, and the lack of a satisfying ending for Clara further contributes to fan ambivalence about her character.
>Introduced three times
>Absolutely no chemistry with Matt Smith
>"Most important person in the universe" bs that had become a trend with companions pushed to its limit
>"The Doctor would destroy the universe for her" bs that had become a trend with companions pushed to its limit
>Incredibly selfish
>Negative character arc
>Actually had a good death that paid off the negative character arc but was then brought back for no reason.
>Was the reason for Hell Bent
You know my problem is I have watched the entire modern doctor who about 10 times, but I still confuse between episodes in season 8 and season 9. Like.. I just can't remember all the episodes, but the ones I do like, I'm like "was that from season 8 or 9?"
And this never happened in the Ponds' run. I remember which episodes are from season 5 and which are from season 6. I don't confuse between the two seasons. Somehow, their personalities progressed, and their relationship with the doctor and River progressed, and the plot progressed in a way that I can think about it chronologically. Amy and Rory FEEL young in season 5. Then feel mature in season 6. So I can place the episodes in correct order. Even if I found an episode mediocre in their era, I was still very interested in seeing how the Ponds' personality grow. I just loved seeing them interact, love each other a little more than the previous episode and of course, the doctor is always brilliant.
For Clara, nothing feels constant. I don't really understand her personality. I don't understand her job( nanny? Teacher? Secret agent? What was that bike scene? What the fuck was that thing with the leaf btw). I don't understand her intelligence, I don't understand her as a character ( unless you give me back Victorian era Clara) , because every episode just moulds her into what the episode needs her to be. That why, I forget some episodes because I can't remember what personality growth she had. There are some episodes I like for the plot and the doctor, so I simply remember the episode and not her. There are some episode I love Clara in, but I can't remember which season lol. Can anyone understand what I'm saying?
Anybody watch wrestling? In wrestling, they will try to bring out a new wrestler, and then they will try to establish the new guy as the new hotness. This almost never works. The wrestling crowd does NOT like being told who they should or shouldn't love. I think the same thing happened with Clara. they tried too hard to just tell us she was "the greatest companion ever!" instead of letting he audience decide that for ourselves.
When it works, that new wrestler is visibly better in some way, there faster an more skilled, taller an heavyer, have more muscles an are stronger.
That tell you what there about an that doesn't make them popular.
That doesn't happen with clara, she's a mess of entry's an unclear about who she is.
You watch the face of evil an its shown repeatedly that Leela is more aggressive an violent then Sarah Jane would ever be, Leela is defined its clear who she is.
@@SuperFunkmachine Clara was fine but trying to declare her the greatest companion ever rubbed some folks the wrong way.
They did a "tell instead of show" with her. Isn't she pretty? Isn't she clever? The Doctor is all caught up in the mystery of "the Impossible Girl" and you should be too! Yeah, she's pretty. She's actually rather smug, rather than clever, and she didn't earn the right to be smug. And I have no clue why the Doctor was so entranced by her, because Moffett didn't show us any reason for it. Maybe he just assumed all his viewers were affected "the power of boners" like he clearly was.
@@byMidnyt YES!
I don't know if I am "neutral" on her, more... I just didn't understand what was going on lmao. Most of Moffat's run just felt so convoluted and confusing to me...
I stopped watching Doctor Who yeeeaaars ago because of Clara. It’s a shame I’ve never started watching it again
Honestly, I think Clara suffers from the same problem as Moffat's other companions; namely that he tried to re-create the success of RTD's companions without understanding what made them so successful in the first place...
Funny how Donna who thought she was nothing became the doctor yet Clara failed and thought she was everything, including being the doctor.. I’d say Clara is the opposite of Donna. Just like Martha was the opposite of Rose.
Clara Isa poor man's Donna. Jenna is lovely though
I didn’t like her, but it depended on how she was written
Still watching, but I agree that in series 7, they used her as a plot device. They tried to make her a “mystery character” like River Song but she was duller, which was in no part the fault of Jenna Coleman.
My key problem is the lack of variety clara brought with her
First series with her: Tardis crew is Doctor and Clara, clara does something majorly impactful
Anniversary Movie: Tardis crew is Doctor and Clara, clara does something majorly impactful
Second series: Tardis crew is Doctor and Clara(plus constant teasing of Danny that never went anywhere) clara does something majorly impactful
Final season: Tardis crew is Doctor and Clara, clara does something majorly impactful (and then is left free of consequences as far as we know.) getting exactly what she wanted by becoming effectively a second doctor with her own companion, faulty tardis and weird pulse.
I was tired of her before I was halfway into series 8 because I wanted the doctor to play off other people but instead clara demanded every episode be about her, it’s the problem I had with Amy only there was no rory or river to break up the dynamic or a clara to finally replace the companions who should have wrapped up their plot lines half a season ago anyways.
One other issue I have with Clara is that the series becomes about her rather than the doctor. This would not have been a problem if the show was titled, The Adventures of Oswin. But it's not. It's Dr Who and we don't really get to see much of what Peter Capaldi can do as an actor till Heaven Sent because he never gets the chance.
@Life in my garden - THANK YOU!! I've been saying that for years. My issue with Clara has always been with how she pushed the Doctor out of his own series to the point where he became simply her sidekick. And treated him like an idiot - many references to "stupid old man". (Which may have been intended "affectionately", but it sure doesn't come across that way.) I've always felt so bad for Peter Capaldi - he was SO excited about playing his childhood hero in the beginning. But he basically got screwed over in favor of putting Clara front and center. He's such an amazing actor and was given no chance, as you said, to really show what he could do as the Doctor (with the exception of Heaven Sent) until series 10, when Clara was finally gone. People are only realizing now how good he was, but just imagine how much better he could have been had he been allowed to actually BE the Doctor.
I only really enjoyed him in Season 10 when she was gone and he could shine. (Plus Bill was much easier company)
Starting Clara off with three different introductions and a half-baked story-arc revolving around her didn't do her any favours whatsoever. The character didn't really click for me until The Day of the Doctor onwards since they started giving her an actual personality, a life outside the Doctor and actual human flaws. In Series and 9, her dynamic with Capaldi provided the best Doctor/companion dynamic reminiscent of Sarah Jane Smith's dynamic with Tom Baker. Her relationship with Danny was sadly underdeveloped, but I loved how it ended and what says about her connection to the Doctor. Had they just started her off with no multiple intros, no Impossible Girl arc and just ended it at Face the Raven/Heaven Sent, she would be much better remembered as a solid companion in her own right. Just a shame Series 7 and Hell Bent screwed things up.
@The Reverse I don’t really see The Impossible Girl stuff as a fail. It was an interesting mystery and it challenged the Doctor in a new way.
@The Reverse That’s fair but (as some have pointed out) she got more than is given credit for, more than some Chibnall era characters at least.
So agree. It’s also like they wanted her to be bigger or more mysterious but it never quite gets there
As a writer who has had a bit of a thing for his own characters, Moffat loving Clara totally tracks. I think she should have left with 11, they didn't seem to know what to do after that. I think that's a big part of why I loved Bill so much, she wasn't Clara.
Also the Lava thing was the breaking point for me where I went from "I don't like her as much as I used to" to "I greatly dislike you, please leave this series now."
It bothers me no end that Clara was so against a new dr, after meeting every dr during name of the dr... if it had been a different version of clara.. this could have worked
I mean, it basically just echoes the fanbase as a whole. Everyone has "their Doctor," it seems, and a large portion of that fanbase gets preemptively angry whenever a new Doctor is revealed, sometimes taking multiple series to warm up to them if at all. I imagine it's even more potent if you're someone who actually knows and travels with the Doctor.
@@TheGeoXWar I remember DOTD. As does several others.
The multiple fake out deaths robbed Face the Raven of the impact it could have had (I had no reason to believe this time she was really dead). Otherwise I’m neutral to positive about Clara in series 8 and 9 but it took me a looong time to get there after the whole impossible girl fiasco. The memory of series 7 and Clara’s continued presence really poisoned my initial enjoyment of Capaldi’s Doctor - who once I got passed that is definitely my current no 1 modern run doctor.
I completely agree with the sentiment of Moffatt falling in love with his character.
The episode ‘Listen’ was almost going to be one of my favourite episodes when I first watched it.
That is until the end of the episode when Clara gave the (child) Doctor his own speech about fear. It came across as her being more important to the Doctor and his world view than the Doctor himself. That’s when I gave up on the character, the writing and, unfortunately, the show.
I miss ‘Doctor Who’. It just stopped feeling like itself the longer Moffatt was show runner. And I really liked Peter Capaldi’s performance; I was really hopeful for a Doctor who felt like a philosopher trying to find his own understanding of the universe. It just fell short every time I thought it would get there.
I couldn't stand Clara and was so relieved when her time on Doctor Who was done. She was annoying and condescending. She was tolerable when she was will the 11th Doctor, but she was just the absolute worst after he regenerated into the 12th Doctor. Jenna Coleman is a beautiful woman and a fantastic actress, but the best actor can only do so much with a poorly written character.
My feelings exactly. I really disliked how she treated 12 and Danny, and how the show made her look like she had the moral high ground even when she was being obnoxious (from memory at least!) Her reaction at the end of Kill The Moon did it for me.
Clara & 11 introduced me to the Whoniverse and I immediately had (and still have) a huge crush on her which may be why I can't judge her character fairly...alas! The power of nostalgia... ;)
I've never understood why more people don't talk about her like that. Like at the very least, she was good eye candy.
Here's my essay: The Doctor thoroughly grieved Clara while in the confession dial, and it was a very good exploration of grief and reminds me of my pathway through grieving my mom's death over the last 6 years... BUT ...I would risk the universe too if I could bring her back, and if I had to shoot someone that I knew would be okay in order to make it happen, well screw them. Hell Bent was the inevitable result of the Doctor being the person he had become by the time Clara died.
Exact reason I thought Hell Bent was pretty great
Exactly! People think Hell Bent was about Clara, but it was about the Doctor. And sure, also a way to give a less gruesome exit to a companion because adult fans forget Doctor Who is a family show that is a huge part of kids' childhoods. And before the 13th Doctor, a female companion was how girls could relate to the show (at least it was that way for me). If I'd been younger when series 9 aired it'd be deeply upsetting if Face the Raven was the last I saw of Clara. But that aside, Hell Bent was about how dangerous rage and grief can make a person, especially if you have as much power as the doctor does.
I would even say Heaven Sent wouldn't have made sense if he did accept her death.
Choosing to spend what feels like eternity in a prison/torture device isn't what you would do if you had accepted someone's death.
It wouldn't have made sense if he finally got out and it turned out he did all that for no good reason and really could have confessed at any time without any consequence.
But he didn't confess because 1. he begrudged those who caused her death, knowlingly or not and 2. he wanted her back
Both of those are not signs of someone who has accepted someone's death.
Why they decided to have the much expected return of Gallifrey as a side plot though, I really don't know.
The problem in my opinion werent the parts you described but what came after. That The Doctor basically sucseeded with resurecting Clara, that Clara got her own faulty TARDIS and her own companion (and with that invalidated Face the Raven) and that The Doctor couldn't learn enything out of it about himself and his Am-I-a-good-man arc because he lost his memory of her. It would have been better if at one point Clara finalised her I'm-like-the-Doctor arc with her standing her ground against him, telling him why he is wrong and then going back to the Time Lords to be send back to the point of her death.
I'm definitely one of the people that liked Clara more because of Jenna Coleman's performance than the way she was written, because I'm rather apathetic to her as a whole. She had a lot of potential, and her relationship with Peter Capaldi's Doctor was very engaging, but on the whole she never really hooked me in as a character, but I never really disliked her either
As a fan of Clara, the problem I have with most analyses of her arc, this one included, is that they approach her story progressively rather than holistically. Her being a living plot device in her first season would be annoying if you just look at that series in a vacuum, but then the next season deconstructs that by forcing her to examine who she is when the thing that made her relevant is no longer the case, and then the next season has her resolving that existential problem by realizing that if she has no meaning independent of the Doctor, her only recourse is to become the Doctor, only to realize the folly of that and meet the same tragedy that befell her previous incarnations, and then in the end, the Doctor gets to save her the way she saved him so many times, paying her back and paying off her arc. It's the most complete and well realized companion arc in the modern era as far as I'm concerned.
You put more thought into this than Moffuck. XD
I agree. While there are some writing problems, such as how others react to Clara, I do think she has a consistent personality. disagree with some of her actions, I do think she's a good character and her arc is more clever than many give it credit for. Plus, sidenote, while Moffat probably did fall in love with her, I think Davies fell in love with Rose to an annoying extent that hurt the dynamic of Ten and Martha. Let's not pretend that Rose was perfect or not divisive lol
You are kinder about her run than I am. I think she should have been dropped after the Impossible Girl story line or simply not have existed in the first place since I feel Clara was just a bad attempt to recapture the magic of Amy Pond. Clara was really a sign that Moffet was running out of ideas. Capaldi really deserved to start his run with a completely new companion and his run was mired by Clara weighing him down.
I have the same problem with Clara that I do with River Song. I love Alex Kingston and Jenna Coleman and the introduction of both Clara and River made me really interested in the characters. What made me ultimately dislike them is that they’re written to know everything and do everything better than the Doctor despite the Doctor being at least a couple thousand years old and traveling for most of their life. They had the potential to be some pretty interesting characters, but the writing was just so bad.
It's been pointed out that Clara and River share more than a few similarities, and as someone who likes River but not Clara the difference was the dosage. River, as an occasional presence, never had to carry a full series or be the core relationship for the Doctor. Though, I'd say it's fair if these traits don't work for you regardless of how often it comes up.
@@CouncilofGeeks This and it feels more plausible with River. We only see so much of her time with the Doctor and it makes a level of sense the Doctor is prepping River for future interactions. That is just my take. I understand the issues with both.
I just feel like that's how Moffat writes women in general? I think his thought process is "we can't make her the damsel in distress, because it's unfeminist ... so let's make her ridiculously smart, bossy and sexy" Like Amy, River and Clara all have the same character traits but in different dosages. Both Amy and Clara have a girly, princessy energy at the start, both River and Clara are made out to be extremely intelligent, all three of them undermine the men in their lives (Amy and River even hit Rory and the Doctor respectively). And all three are weirdly sexual? Amy works as a kissagram, tries to shag the Doctor and has a moment where she looks at her clone and finds herself hot. Okay, that's part of her personality, that's fine. River is constantly making innuendos and drugging people by kissing them. Okay, she's Amy's daughter and has that whole femme fatale thing going on. Dalek!Clara is constantly flirting, Governess!Clara flirts and makes out with the Doctor and Modern!Clara ALSO has a moment where she looks at her clone and finds herself hot. Also fine on its own, but for this to be the one thing that all three characters (and also Missy and Reinette) have in common? This was becoming majorly uncomfortable and I'm glad that he didn't go the same route with Bill.
I would have used the Impossible Girl macguffin to have one series with each of the Clara variants. You can tell there's moments in later Clara seasons where they're still writing for one of the other two and that could have been resolved by having multiple versions each go through a full character arc but never overlapping. Jenna could have stretched herself a bit further since she's capable of being charismatic in so many ways, and you could have had your usual mystery box hook by having each of them say or do something identical to an earlier version. Also, if the Doctor had lost several other versions of Clara by the time he got to Face the Raven, he would have reached the type of breaking point we see in Waters of Mars where he feels enough is enough, and he tries to take matters into his own hands, rather than an unjustified level of effort that we didn't even see him go through with Rose or Amy, who he had a much better emotional connection with.
I would have to respectfully disagree with you about the chemistry Clara had with 12 especially, they are my favorite Doctor/Companion duo, but each person's perspectives are subjective and their own so I see how you would think so. I saw a platonic love and respect between which contrasted with their obsessiveness with each other which eventually broke them apart. Too bad we won't get a chance to see them together one last time in the future before she finally has to meet her ultimate fate.
Neutral here! 🙋♀️
I don't hate Clara, I have writing issues and over celebration of her. But I get her. Fundamentally her personality type I do get. I often thought out of all modern companions she's probably most like myself. Now I worry no one likes me 😭
You're not written by Steven Moffat. Don't think like that.
@@MovieMagic515 it's ok I know everyone like me really... once they get to know me. I've never actually looked up Clara's personality type. According to the Myers Briggs personality test, and some super nerd who labelled all the doctor who characters with one of the 16 personality types. I share the same personality with Amy. Which honestly I would have to disagree. My personality type are supposed to be a walking contradiction. Which is more like Clara. Their are people out there who are quite but also loud and outspoken who also avoid confrontation, but yet thrive of it. People who are so insecure, but also cock sure of themselves. Clara trying to be like the doctor actually screams insecurity. What does one do if you don't like one self? Be someone you do like. It's why she lies to Danny. She doesn't know if shes doing the right thing or not. But shes fairly sure its wrong so she lies. She carries on doing what she's doing because she doesn't know if shes doing the right thing or not. She likes the person she is when she's with the doctor. Like people who use performance enhancers. They know its wrong so they lie. But yet it's also right because its getting the results that they want. That result of being what you think you should be outweighs the risk. So yh basically I just get her.
So looked up her personality type. As suspected about 4 different opinions on the matter. The majority say ENFJ.
I'm INFJ. so the same apart from I'm fundermentily an introvert also I'm actually load and chatty. Whereas Clara is pegged as an extrovert. Since the show never calls the companions to have alone recharge time I think its difficult to tell weather she would be more introverted than extroverted. She seems very well read so honestly I would peo her more as an introvert. A few other factors too. The plans she made in the beginning but never actually did. The fact she couldn't could leave after her freind died even though she held no responsibility to family what so ever suggests someone whose more introverted. The fact she didn't have much of life outside that family, and the fact she was actually quite happily single before and after Danny. All suggest introvert. Everyone believes I'm an extrovert but I'm not. Probably because I waffle on so much to strangers about crap their not interested in😂
I'm also quite neutral on Clara! I like her character arc in series 9 and her overall ... energy? Her vibe? (I don't know what to call it.) But I hate how series 7 handled her and how she treated Danny.
Oh please...just stop.
Moffat didn't know how to write a companion without making them important than anything. When you look at RTD era, all companions are such different characthers. Including Mickey and Jack. But looking at Moffat era, he had 2 companion that stayed way too long and was almost the same characther. Both Amy and Clara are beautiful girls without any family established, they don't have any goals in the beginning of their journeys, they don't have any traits other than being assertive. They both start with a crush on Doctor but then settle on a follow up companion and become friends with Doctor and gain confidence as they go to the point they treat Doctor as a kid and think themselves better than the Doctor. Problem is Amy was first, her supporting cast of Rory and River was better and she wasn't as cocky. After Amy, Clara didn't bring anything new and unlike former companions she didn't get punished when she did something back which also somehow includes her coming back from death. As much as I don't like her season Bill is the best companion of Moffat era just because she was something new. Still doesn't hold a candle to RTD era and worse than Yaz as well. The difference between Rose, Martha and Donna were really clear and they all brought a different side of Doctor which made the series 2,3,4 great standalone series. I have no idea which episode is which season after season 6. Everything is a blur. And companions took the blame there
Very well said.
You make a lot of good points, and I also often felt that Moffat fell in love with his own creation. (On some level it could be argued there was actually a similar problem with Rose under Davies, but I digress). I do know for a fact season 7 struggled due to Moffat’s work on the 50th-though I absolutely agree I would have rather had Victorian Clara travel with the Doctor after The Snowmen and have her try to unravel the mystery that she seemed to be so similar to Oswin. Would’ve worked a lot better. Definitely agree with the problems with Jenna Coleman not being able to decide whether to stay or go, but as you said was successfully rectified through Face The Raven.
As I mentioned under your Hell Bent video, it is so odd how poorly executed the episode is in terms of narrative cohesion. It feels similar to studio meddling in things like Star Wars Episode 9 and as you mentioned, Batman v Superman-where the storyteller wanted to tell a specific story but they were also slapped with the responsibility of fulfilling an order from their bosses. Considering both how Series 10 was presented as a soft reboot as well as how much of Chibnall’s appeal to the fans pre-season 11 was that he would be switching away from the Moffat style of continuity and connection to past stories that appeared to be draining the ratings, I don’t consider it too far-fetched that the BBC wanted Moffat to basically purge as much of it as possible at the end of Series 9-though that may simply be my own bias for how good a writer I believe him to be most of the time, and it’s hard for me to understand why he would purge so many of his own carefully set up plot points so haphazardly. Doesn’t absolve him of much, but it’s an interesting perspective to consider at least.
I think the issues with Moffat (as a writer specifically. He has some weird issues with writing women I don't want to get into right now) are that he gets in his own head. If you give him some restraints, some rules, he can work in those and give you a banging story. But when he has total control he probably over thinks and keeps adding extra things to every story point to make it more "clever" or "deep" (in his head)
So you end up with weirdly convoluted plots where you don't really understand why anything happened even though it feels like thought was put into it
(Season 9. The end of Sherlock. Dracula.)
@@jordon2074 that’s a very good way of putting it.
In Series 7B, I found Clara a bit bland at best, and Mary-Sue-ish at worst. However, she became far more interesting in Series 8 and 9, when paired with Capaldi's Doctor. I loved their dynamic - it was by far the most interesting of any previous Doctor and companion. I enjoyed how she had some very real flaws; and how in many ways, she and the Twelfth Doctor brought out the worst in each other (noting that usually, the Doctor tends to bring out the best in their companion(s) and vice versa). Oddly enough, by the end, I was a complete Clara-Twelve shipper!
10:00 THANK YOU for bringing up her lies to her partner!!! She was a garbage person for treating him the way she did and I felt nothing about his death beyond the feeling that he deserved better. Their relationship was based upon her convenience and I hoped that her taking of the TARDIS keys was her guilt for treating him like shit and wanting a do over where she'd treat him like an equal and not a pet.
It almost worked, going into 'Last Christmas' with the suggestion that even decades later Clara still regretted her mistreating Danny and still wished she could be with him. It just backfires in the sense of the poorly done 'twist ending', only done because Jenna Coleman decided at the very last minute to stay on for Series 9. 'Last Christmas' is an ok episode, but as a departure episode for the character it works a hell of a lot better than 'Hell Bent'.
The point for me personally where I was totally done with Clara was "In the Forest of the Night." I was already starting to have issues with her and her relationship with the Doctor, and then her treatment of the kids in that class just hit where my buttons are and intensified a lot of the problems I already had.
(I'm not sure how to refer to the class in the episode in a British context, but whatever it was, it seems to be the where they were throwing all their neurodivergant kids.)
This is like all I comment about on these videos now, but these intros really need their own compilation videos by the end of the year like what Anthony Fantano does, or even a "best of"
the sad thing is that jenna coleman's acting talent was totally wasted on such a badly written character
Actually she had the very best writing Doctor Who has had to offer.
@@euler4273 "the very best writing" hmmm very debatable
@@wrenpen She had by far the best characterisation; we know about her goals and aspirations, her dreams and plans, all of her abilities, which ones she tries to improve, and which she didn't. She has so many character strengths but also weaknesses. She has great victories, but also great failures. She doesn't always get it right, but she always learns from her mistakes, and gets better as a consequence. She has the most three dimensional, relatable character. Then there is her character development, which is also by far the best, consistent, continuously developed. She changes gradually over time, to ultimately undergo an absolutely incredible and inspiring development. She gives numerous fantastic speeches, and has countless standout character moments. Yes, her writing is very clearly the very best.
After already not liking Amy and the plot around her, the Clara character was what finished turning me away from Who. I found her unlikeable and the next mystery girl after we had just finally gotten rid of Amy not something I was interested in.
i feel like clara should have been killed at the end of each story and the doctor should have found a new one rather quick, i also think it should have been a season before the doctor found the original
I completely respect your opinions on Clara and you gain a lot of respect from me for stating that you won't attack Jenna, she's extremely talented and sometimes people mix writing and acting up and attack the actors, you have a lot of respect from me for that!
I will say this though, Moffat has stated many many times on live interviews that him and peter approached Jenna and asked her to stay for series 9. Jenna simply accepted as she loved working on the show with Peter.
You can make your mind up on who you believe but for me I'm gonna go with what Moffat has actually said multiple times in interviews! Besides that i enjoyed the video despite me loving Clara haha
Look forward to the next one :)
I didn't say that's impossible. It just means that of the two options available (the script needed a last minute re-work or suffered for it vs. Moffat just wrote a really really terrible ending to the script and thought it was fine), it leaves Moffat in a worse light.
These are my exact feeling on Clara. Jenna Coleman did a great job with what Moffat gave her. But what he gave her, often times, was just poor writing. And her ending, to me, completely undercut the significance of her death two episodes earlier. But I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Moffat couldn't commit to killing off a companion. They all got some sort of "get out of jail free" card that let them exist beyond their supposed deaths.
It's not just you. Hell Bent's ending for Clara, and Hell Bent in general, was awful (though, granted, Hell Bent is mediocre to me).
She always felt annoying to me but I never could put the finger on why. Actually the ending pissed me off do much, face the reven was basically the one episode when I actually enjoyed Clara as a character
i haven't even watched the video yet but i'll just put my thoughts here:
clara's always been my favourite. i had accidentally missed the first 2 episodes jenna appeared in (asylum of the daleks and the snowmen) so my first clara episode was bells of st john and i loved her. straight away we're introduced to almost every aspect of what makes her character so charming; she's kind, witty and down-to-earth yet is comfortably in control of what she wants to do. "come back tomorrow and ask me again, because then i might say yes."
i was barely 13 years old when this episode aired, so series 7b is quite nostalgic for me, and is an era of doctor who which i remember fondly, despite its flaws.
Then series 8 came around, and my goodness what a fun time that was. 12 and clara became my favourite duo pretty much instantly, and little 14 year old me completely adored every episode of s8. The way the characters were explored, the story of each episode, how there was a bit of everything; horror, humour, drama, action, as well as a good mix of dark and light aspects and it played out beautifully. Not to mention the overall arc and the core themes of the series. Definitely one of my absolute favourite eras.
For some reason s9 felt a lot darker to me, despite the doctor's change in character, and there were times where i found the story a bit harder to follow and pay attention to (i was only 15), but i still enjoyed clara's character and i think they finished her off nicely.
(Hell bent is an overhated gem in my opinion)
overall, clara is one of the strongest characters i've ever seen in fiction. She's complex and flawed, she makes mistakes and is realistically human, and there were times when her strengths became weaknesses and vice versa, but she had a good heart and was honestly the sweetest 🥺
she will forever be my comfort character 💗
Interesting how people see things differently. I felt her characterisation was all over the place and her getting things over the Doctor all the time was unearned. She brought a lot of stuff I don’t enjoy in companions. She felt like another timelord actually.
I like S8 Clara (and to a lesser extent S9, but... S9 Clara has some issues even putting her ending aside for a second). Unfortunately S8 Clara - particularly at the start - is nearly unreconcilable with her characterization in S7 to me. I like Coleman's performance throughout, mind, my issues are firmly on the writing side.
I liked Clara better with Capaldi. She was perfect for him, but even still, I just never fell in love with her.
I think honestly what happened is they had all these good Clara’s and just gave up with the “real” one.
Interesting note about 11th and Clara's "lack of chemistry" compared to her chemistry with 12th. Personally, I felt it was the opposite: the 11th Doctor and Clara felt like best buds and thick as thieves to me, while 12th and Clara felt like they were at odds with each other most of the time and were kinda repelling each other over the course of series 8 and 9.
That said, that could be my interpretation of that whole "Clara wanting to be the Doctor" thing you mentioned, which is possibly where that "repelling" vibe I got from Clara and 12th came from and why I felt series 9 was a slog to get through.
I am so eager to see you look back at season 10 though! I'll be sure to check those out.
Finally! Normal comment that doesn't support 12th and Clara's toxic relationship.
I think Moffat broke Clara as a character. If you compare her in season 7 and 8, these are completely two different Clara. I don't understand why ppl don't see it and why ppl like s8 or s9. I still hate when 12th and Clara just have always conflict, screaming and just not talk to each other. This is so wrong. This has never happened before between 11th and Clara. Clara knew about his regeneration, and when they rescued Gallifrey, she accepted his faces. She accepted his faces even earlier when she was in his own time stream. She just was like travel with him and be his companion. She knew their roles. She didn't want to be the Doctor. And I think she never wanted to be. I really love relationships 11th Doctor and Clara. It's was... just good, like he finally have friend who KNEW him. No secrets. They was close, it's was good... but nothing not for ever, huh?
This is how I felt about it too. To me Clara was fine in s7 and then got super obnoxious in the later seasons.
I couldn't stand Clara. She kept the plot shackled to modern day London. All the other companions would travel with the Doctor, see the sights.
Tenth Doctor said it best, Allonz Y. Let's Go. Let's go somewhere because I have a box that can take us anywhere in space, in history, in space's history. Lets go on an Adventure.
And Clara says "nah" I have boring modern day London shit to do. Because I don't wanna be in doctor who, I wanna be in a rom-com with Hugh Grant (or whoever is in Rom-coms these days)
classic era had the 3rd doctor exiled to Earth for three seasons, you would think this would be boring, it wasnt. Thirds run was considered the beginning of the golden age of classic era who. They were stuck on earth, but they still had adventures, and the hilarity of the doctor TRYING to get his TARDIS going, his first companion was a lady scientist, in her human way, every bit as smart as he was, and the UNIT crew. But Clara, some how, between seasons went from c a girl with no real purpose, to a HIGH SCHOOL ENGLISH TEACHER now unless the British system is different to any other, teaching is a MINIMUM three year course, high school is three years of your particular subject, plus a year for your teaching certificate. A minimum of 5 years, did we have ANY hint there was a 5 year gap between series? Or just giving her something to do to be interesting?
It’s so weird. I just didn’t have any deep thoughts about Clara during 7B. I liked her and Chemistry between her and Matt Smith was fine. I loved the Finale, but upon reflection, it probably had little to do with her. She was someone for the rest of the cast to bounce off of. I did like the end of that episode, not only because of John Hurt. I liked that the companion/Doctor relationship had evolved to a “duty of care” one. We were done with the mystery, now we could move on. I know a lot of people really hate her. I’ve heard all the reasons and I can understand all of them. But I just enjoyed her for what she was. After seeing 13’s companions, I now feel absolutely validated. 😊
My opinion on Clara is mixed, I really don't like Oswin because of that "I was going through a phase" line, Victorian Clara is quite good. Series 7 Clara is boring but I like her in DotD and TotD, I like her in Series 8 and in 9 until Face the Raven. I don't like Hell Bent
I think your reading of the Series 9 3-parter hinges too much on the assumption that the narrative is treating the Doctor's assessment that Clara shouldn't try to be like the Doctor as correct. The Doctor is wrong here, both morally and as treated by the narrative. The Doctor is saying this because he thinks Clara is safer if she doesn't do this, but also recognizes that it needs to be done when it's his decision. He's being a hypocrite, and he is punished by the narrative, while Clara "wins" and runs off with her own TARDIS. This doesn't make Hell Bent a good episode-the Doctor still killed someone and the episode is still poorly paced-but I don't think it fails on a thematic level. I do think it fails as art, however, for the reasons you explained here; the fact that there is no consensus on how to read it is a major flaw.
Note: Smith, Capaldi, and Coleman all gave strong performances and I do not intend to criticize that.
I know this is blasphemy, but I actually really love Clara and I don't think she had many problems with character development. I know that in her first season she was a little plot devicey and blank, but in Series 8 and 9 she had really strong character arcs and the problems that people tend to bring up about her seemed to be problems about Capaldi's Doctor's character arc and not hers. For example, in Hell Bent, Capaldi's Doctor just HAS to bring her back, even though the masterpiece that is Heaven Sent was about him overcoming his grief for her. That's HIS character inconsistency, not Clara's, In fact, I think her character is really well written in Hell Bent. It is not he fault she was brought back. And throughout Series 8, Capaldi's Doctor had a bunch of 180 character swooshes, most evident in Listen and The Caretaker. But people blame HER for the Series arc problems when her character had strong, consistent development. I feel people give Clara a lot of flak for things that were more of a problem for Capaldi's Doctor.
That’s a really, really interesting take! Especially the point about Hell Bent, which is so obvious when pointed out but I admit I overlooked it.
She was pretty accepting of her death. Quite brave about it, actually. Face the Raven was actually the episode I finally loved her fully and completely.
It’s not her fault the Doctor ruins what was a lovely arc with a graceful and inevitable downfall!
There's a recurring problem throughout new-Who - that Companions can't just leave (except Martha Jones) - Rose has to be trapped in another universe, Donna has to have a mental landmine that will kill her if she spends time with the Doctor, Amy and Rory have to be trapped behind a time paradox for the rest of their lives, Clara has to be erased from the Doctor's memory, Bill gets turned into a Cyberman and then left for dead... And even then several of them turned up again after finally escaping the Doctor...
Maybe someday they'll figure out how to let characters just leave the show without having to take out a metaphysical restraining order on the Doctor in the process.
@@rmsgrey Grahn and Ryan basically just left the doctor.
So at least martha jones isn’t the only one that just moved on.
Clara is the prime of a story aspect of "universally significant companion "on way too long to the point that she virtually replaced the doctor in everything, but name which is evident by Moffatt's interviews
Which is why I adore Graham and Yaz finally their ordinary and dealing with realistic things like grief and mental issues
yeah that was refreshing
Tbh I am a vehement Clara stan but admittedly it's 90% bc she's gender af, not necessarily the writing for her which often disappointed me
Clara to me feels like they where trying REALLY hard to make a New Sarah Jane. A Sarah Jane 2.0 but IMPORTANT. And it felt to forced. Like The Doctors didn't feel natural around her. She felt more like a tag on, and that the Doctor Kept her along because.. She's Important. But "how" is she important? Jenna Coleman was great actress, but yes the writing was 1 dimensional for her.
Peter and Jenna were amazing . They had a great chemistry and were the perfect match for me. Bill Potts wasn‘t my cup of tea. Pearl Mackie did her best but had no chemistry with the 12th Doctor. BTW I didn‘t just love Jenna as an amazing actress I also liked her character „Clara“ that was better on season 9 for sure.