I put 190cc AFR heads on my '85 Corvette back in 1993, replacing the stock cast iron L98 heads. I did the whole cam/heads/intake/headers thing all at once, as a winter project. I have run the the Corvette in road course use over about 16 seasons, and the AFR heads have never given a problem.
I grabbed a pair of Pro Comp around 2007-2008. I just took em off yesterday. It was a budget build, and never had an issue. They were built with crane internals from a speed shop in LA. Looks like a little elbow grease and grinder work will be done this winter to get more flow! Hot roddin on a budget is super fun and you learn some cool stuff.
Richard, I was watching this while eating dinner, and everyone outside is shooting off fireworks. My little Jack Russell was cowering on the floor beside me. But when I started your video, she looked up and started wagging her tail. She must have thought you were talking to her, and your soothing voice erased her fear. Thanks man
On a 383, you honestly need a 210cc or slightly larger port to make good power. Stock vortec heads are 170cc and would choke that motor down power wise, but make a shit ton of low rpm torque.
It would be a better comparison. They are fairly equal. The pro comp heads do have the taller runners and I would recommend a vortec intake, because a factory gm high rise intake sets just below the top of the runner.
@@biggregsparks8364 not true, if it's the typical 6000 max rpm stroker kit the added flow isn't as helpful as you might imagine. For an na deal the higher velocity of the 195 street ports, and the stronger low lift flow will help drivability for the typical street car guy. Most guys aren't building a race car. And the added flow above 550 lift is pointless if you aren't spinning the rpm to take advantage of it... Again, I'm referring to na stuff. If using a power adder then sure. Also referencing afr cnc ported heads with stated flow bench data and known csa. Can't comment on the as cast import stuff. Although it's interesting how the afr 195s have been tested against some 200/210 speedmaster heads and basically kicked the shit out of them from idle to redline.
@@biggregsparks8364 the other thing this test isn't showing is you have even more flow with the afr and a properly spec cam. The afr will flow with around .550-.575 lift. So in truth a custom cam would show even more average power out of the afr.
As a previous owner of Pro Comp 180 (as cast) heads, it's my opinion they are great for a tight budget if you are seeking to upgrade to Aluminum heads. I found myself needing to replace a set of worked over 461's that had developed a crack & had very little to spend at the time. The throttle response was definitely lacking after the swap. Therefore when I recently replaced that engine I went with a set of AFR 180 CNC heads PN 916. I would only use those Pro Comps again if it was a stock to very mild daily driver.
Exactly the testing that I had wanted to see, Richard!! This is helpful for stuff we have and future projects!! Thanks much!! And dont forget us SBC guys, we're still out here!!
I would like to see the AFR195 as cast heads in a comparison. They seem to be a lot cheaper than the CNC heads, but they might be a lot less power as well.
It comes down to an old saying “ you get what you paid for “ and for me i would be paying for the AFR heads any day of the week !! You know exactly what you are buying , no surprises at all ! And all of the measurements are accurate!!
i bought some NEW aftermarket LS3 heads on craigslist for a screaming deal. Even got them CNC ported! Tossed em on the engine and the thing couldn't stay cool. My screaming deal craigslist LS3 heads had a plugged water jacket so there was NO water flow from the water pump. Waste of $2500, plus I gotta buy another known-good set of heads to replace em. I got what I paid for!!
I have been running AFR heads for years on a boosted combination beating on them with great results and no problems definitely worth the price , you also have to consider that a low cost offshore head likely will suffer in heat treating and longevity issues with valve seats , heat treating , plus the AFR’s come with high quality valves and springs. Want to go fast and engine last eat lots of Kraft dinner till you have the money for quality components
AFR FTW! I have seen countless AFR dyno tests, and they never cease to amaze me every single time. They always make killer torque throughout the rpm range, from off idle until they let off the throttle! YES, they are and have always been very expensive...BUT if you are building yourself that once in a lifetime perfect engine that you want the most out of for maximum fun....AFR will always outrun the competition and it won't even be close! Don't put all kinds of money into a car and then skimp on the cylinder heads because THAT is where your power is at!
@@armdrop101 Dont trust the guides in those heads....seats on the china heads are not iron I dont think they will handle the heat nearly as long as the usa heads with better seats.
You should do a budget head shoot out ,seems like everyone has a pair of heads in the 1000-1500$ range ,brodix ,trick flow ,pro filer, AFR ,all around the 190-200 cc range ,see were they all stand
As others have said its really not apples to apples when the afr's are cnc ported (which we know alone increases flow & therefore hp) and although port volume was close it would've been nicer to see a direct comparison with the same port volume, chamber volume(advertised of course) , and valve size. I think that would really be a fair test to see if the expensive heads are worth it.
CNC doesnt guarantee any more power thats a myth. Design has to be there other wise its just a pretty machined port Seen a number of cnc programs for cheaper heads that really sucked. Could tell by their flow chart it was designed by a half azz porter
I would love to see a shoot out with the skip white nkb200/proheader/assault heads against a dart 200 platinum head. These are copies of the dart heads. A CNC program will work on the the above China heads, and they are pretty nice castings.
It’s not just about price it’s also has to do with where the heads are made. Like the budget made in China intake. We need to stop financing the enemy and stop shooting ourselves in the foot by also offshoring our industries. It matters!!!
I agree 1000% but in a tight economy seeing a performance oriented aluminum head on the cheap is to tempting to alot of gear heads but you get what you pay for shit even factory votecs with flow better than those mediocre pro comps alot don't realize it would be cheaper to snatch up some good used vortecs and grab the diy tools to mod em for more lift and rocker studs for under $100, get a die grinder and cheap sand roll set, carbide bit and a porting book and do some basic work and get seat of the pants improvement ya know
I’m running a set of procomps on my 0.060 over 351-w. I just had to try a set out of curiosity and my opinion for people who don’t have the machine shop experience, go name brand cylinder heads and buy them bare and have a good reputable machine shop build them. I had to put about 25hrs into my set of procomps With cleaning up the castings, reshaping the combustion chambers, I redid the valve job because the margins where crap. I had to use two piece guide plates for proper valve train alignment. I went a best of 10.40’s on a 100 shot with a mechanical flat tappet camshaft. .500 intake-.522 exh. 225-235@ 0.050 on a 112 loc. TRW flat top forged pistons.
@@StainlessTIG2 yeah there's plenty of benefits to running even Chinese heads I just can't afford $2000 for set of big name ones and I'm not shure but I'd say the cheap line of big name ones may use Chinese castings? Maby not. I just have a set of 993 GM castings that came with bowl port, 2.02 .60 S/S under cut valves and studs from arrowhead bout 20 years ago I did the rest of the porting and polishing and I can say they work pretty good as much as people trash em, yhey actually flow pretty good there downside is the chambers are not that good but with flat tops I have 9:1 that's a good street compression for iron heads. With a Howards 232 480 108 lsa cam original Torker and roller rockers it is pretty damn healthy, no its not 400+ HP but I'd say 350+ even tho the forum experts have said be lucky break 300... common...wtf. but in a 92 c1500 it does cook along
@@95Sn95 the 993s actually outflow the double humps! The problem being the 76cc chambers compared to 64cc. It made quite a difference in our dirt track pure stock motor, years ago, to run the smaller valves good casting 305 heads, because of the increased combustion. We weren't allowed Vortec heads, and only flat top pistons and a max lift of .450! Very restrictive rules.
Glad you said that i have a pair of procom 210cc heads these heads can be ported bigtime i did mine and i will tell you my 78 malibu 358 is stupid fast i just bought a set of afr 195 inforcer heads im porting them now cant wait to see the diff im opening them up as much as i can
stupid comparison,you could spend 100+ hours hand porting a set of heads,what does it prove? you can not port to cnc repeatability and efficiency EVER.....EVEN THE BEST HEAD PORTING GUYS CAN NOT DO IT
I've got a 347 with pro comp heads 190cc and just bought AFR 195cc heads, I'm so glad finally theres a test to prove AFR is worth it... thank you for doing this test
Ya shoulda done the AFR as cast head. When r u gonna do a 350 Olds, Pontiac, and Buick comparison? I love watching your show. It's extremely informative. It's like a drug that I can't get enough of. LOL!! Keep up da great work. From Chicago Matt Da Hippy.
Also the AFR 195 head has 8mm valve stems, bigger 2.05 intake valve, and 5 angle valve seats. That head has more than just the basic CNC stuff. So of course it should out perform a as cast cheap heads. I would love to see the sane AFR 195 comparison with the Trick flow 195 as cast, now that would be a treat. But still Richard always has good content!!!
Compatibility is the game. One can throw 10k or 3k into a motor and have the same reliability and performance numbers. When I build motors I figure out budget, performance requirements, and planned drivetrain. Then go from there. Many times I end up getting a Chevrolet Performance create motor and adding a few items to keep the budget below 3-4k for a new motor with a few speed parts sitting between 300 - 350hp and should get 100,000 miles. That power level is usually enough to get you in trouble but not enough you have to spend 10k in drivetrain upgrades. Most cases anything more then that is lost/never used power. But as mentioned you will start having to drop money into the driveline to handle the power and don't forget about suspension, brakes, and tires. Point is it can snow ball quickly into not just 10k for the motor but another 10-20k for everything needed to put the power to the road reliably.
I had some S/R torques on my 383 Chevy. Almost all the valve springs cracked. Replaced all the springs and it was fine. After that,I'm never buying budget heads again. I heard many times that they are basically thrown together with crummy tolerances with cheap parts. I'd rather just save up and get what I really want,put together with quality parts. Eventually about a year later,a valve seat cracked in one of those torquers. I slapped on some used vortec heads. It felt like that 383 gained about 20hp. Just because it's aftermarket doesn't mean it's better.
Great video! I appreciate you putting all this together for all of us to see. If you need any new content ideas, I agree with a lot of the other comments. I would love to see the middle ground heads like the brodix ik, blueprint 195s, Edelbrock e street and so on. As always great stuff.
I have a set of pro comp casting. Put good valves and springs in. Complete for both heads in $700 BRAND NEW. And that's small block mopar. Not one issue here
The ProMaxx heads are a surprisingly good casting for the money, have them checked and assembled properly by a machinist and they'll put down good power for the money.
Regardless you have to check every brand of heads I don't care if it's AFR Frankenstein to pro comp... Ask any real builder... And yes pro comp can make Power
Add to this is the Procomp heads are generally softer alloy, not even consistent on the same head! So they A do not retain the headgasket near as well. B blow headgaskets as the deck flexes. Plus assembly and valve and spring quality is not near as good. While I have never hear of a valve breaking they do stretch plus the [roller] rocker marks the valve tip. And the inserts have been known to burrow into the alloy or worse break. This on all cheaper heads, The ProComp just one of the worse. Though I have had assemblies from Edelbrock that were NOT machined very well either. But they did make better power than the cheapos.
Put up numbers from a set of sbc proheaders I did shortly after they came out. All these yrs later they still come out on top. I got called bs online by a few well knowns but know for a fact they are legit.
I am running a set of dart motown heads 220 intake runners 2.05 intake 1.60 exhaust 67 cc chambers I run 12.1 pistons with a single plane intake , pro-form 750 double pumper Hyd cam ,560/585 lift 320/325 duration 110 lobe separation msd 7AL ignition with a pro power coil aluminum vs cast I will go with aluminum . Thank you for your time and consideration on this subject 👍
Well, My response is pretty neutral because I agree with most of the comments that I read. First, I want to say that I enjoy your work and videos. Thank you! Now, when you were talking about what the cheapo CNCd heads did, keep in mind that this is on the older,milder 383. I took the gains over as-cast as a percentage and applied it to the 405 hp of the current cheapo results and it doesn't look as pathetic! I would agree to go with the AFR heads, if you can afford them. Now, if you can port your own heads, the cheapo heads could do more. If you are broke and your budget is either used factory or the cheapo heads, they might be a bargain. Now, consider how much time you are going to invest in porting them. Do you want to invest your time in the cheapo ones? I believe that you could nearly match the cheapo heads with a set of used Vortec heads. I know that you weren't doing junkyard heads here. I guess the cheapo can be used on a completely bad budget but I would still lean towards a less expensive, brand name head... I agree with buying American and also think folks need to realize something else. When you buy foreign, you aren't just losing American jobs but you are losing the Manufacturing ability of the shops that you helped put out of business... Ya'll Take care and be safe, John
@The Truth about Africa hurts we aren't talking about cast aluminum here I'm talking about cast heads such as vortec chevy heads your machine shop can machine them to be some of the best performance heads ever I know I run them on dirt track
@The Truth about Africa hurts them being aluminum really doesn't affect the way they preform not enough to feel it behind the wheel but aluminum you can cut and modify alot easier plus you get a weight reduction and they do run a little cooler and cooler fuel means better mixture and bigger booms
I bought EBAY Old Nascar Phase 5 Aluminum Bowties, Pulled old 80's .740 lift solid roller used comp bracket cam we had laying around new pistons, rods, old craigslist Strip Dominator w 2" spacer 850 carb 355 CI 11.75:1 compression New comp lifters I will say I went with 3/8 push rods and had a really good full kick out pan on it Dynoed 565HP The head cam combo was killer ( we were racing it whether it was or not) We call it the EBAY motor You can build some fun reliable stuff if you pay attention and do your homework.
However, as hi end technology continues to trickle down to the unwashed masses (a CD player was 300 bucks 30 years ago, now you can get one for 30), you can go much faster for a low price than you could in the 90s. Competition between brands is good for consumers.
You should have baselined the test with some factory vortec heads. Everyone says how great they flow, but there are not a lot of tests comparing them. You should do a test with a set of fuelies, 882’s, and vortecs.
Never skimp on your cylinder heads,if your trying to build a performance engine ya want the best heads you can afford. AFR is expensive heads but you can’t beat the out the box power capability that their heads make. I have a set of the 220 comp heads on my 427 small block Chevy and even though they costed me close to $2500 they was worth every penny. 650 horsepower in a 2800 pound Chevy II makes for lots of fun so trust me spend the money ya won’t regret it and after all it’s only money your not going to take it with ya and it’s meant to be spent anyhow.
I have an NHRA SS/J Chevy II I use NHRA legal Edelbrock heads on. Its a 327 that makes 780 hp @ 8500 RPM. It too is a 2800 lb car with a full interior, 6 point roll bar, and no modifications to the body or the hood. My question to you is why in the hell would you build a 427 cubic inch small block when a 427 big block will blow it away so bad its not funny? Youre making 650 horsepower? Yea right and Im the Pope. Spin it to 7 grand for any length of time and youll have pistons and rods scattered all over the track. You guys with your mixed matched pieces and parts crack me up. So what is its E.T. and MPH on a quarter mile track anyway?
@@MasterWitchDoctor there’s nothing mismatched and the question isn’t why its more of why not?? It’s a new millennia,technology has come a long way. It has a dart lil M block and there’s no doubt the motor would make way more power but it’s a street car and was built for 300 shot but you clearly know it all. I know it’s not very practical no but it’s a toy. As for turn it any real rpm,well I shift it at 7300rpm and rods are still in it and I would have to go dig the time slips out the glove box for exacts but it runs 9.80’s all day on motor. I never get more then one pass as I get kicked out every time as I have no cage. It’s a ladder bar car that’s all that has been done so I could put a 26x10 slick without cutting the car up. It does have frame ties an a simple bolt in coil overs up front. Still have the factory cammed lower control arms up front and upper A arms and strut rods,Still has the rear steer that the first gens came stock with. That’s exactly why I didn’t go big block when clearly the cylinder heads well out flow most factory style engines,but have ya ever tried shoe horning a big block into a first gen x-body? Especially with it still having a factory front clip. It’s 64 factory SS car so I wasn’t cutting it up especially when it was my fathers car. The engine is capable of a lot more when it was on the dyno,it had a 750 street dominator on it. It now has 1100 pro systems .699intake .702exhaust can’t recall the exact duration and Doug 1 3/4 inch primary with 3 inch collectors. They make 2 inch fender well exit but again didn’t wanna cut the car up. If ya ever in the south east Michigan area and wanna put ya money where your mouths at?? I know quiet little section of road that we can go and see if your shit can hang. I won’t even spray it and will let you the nitrous line off and tape it your self so ya can see it’ll be all motor.
@@85gbody97 220c.p are real nice heads...got a new set for my 383 but had to sell due to health/not working His point was on a BB 427 say an afr 265 can make much more power than a 220cc sbc head.
I think you could have added Blue Point and Eldebrock heads to get some that where more mid range although they are far from cheap. The added torque and horsepower is impressive.
Not sure how your reading my mind Richard. But I am building a 383sbc forged bottom end with with flat tops, and the XE284 camshaft and some older pro topline steel heads. And I’ve been trying to figure out dual plain or single plain. Now I know. Thanks!
I'd like to see the same test with higher compression. Step it up to 11:1 and I bet the AFR heads really start showing its true colors but even at 10:1 it was a considerable difference. Great vid 👍
....or you can spend that extra AFR head $ on a 76mm ebay turbo and make double the power with the China heads. I'm on a page called the driveway engineer where 30k a year mechanics make 9 sec drag cars on 8k budgets. Learned a lot about how to go really fast on a budget.
Thanks Richard. Very diplomatic comparison. I have heard some of the Chinese performance parts such as heads won’t even bolt on some engines. The old saying you get what you pay for has never been more relevant.
I've had one too many problems with Pro Comp, aka: Speedmaster... which brings up the whole point, why the name change? That's a hint in my estimation.
I'd like too see roundup comparison of budget heads. Like Vortecs vs. ProComps(speedM) vs. NKB ect. The NKB heads SkipWhite sells have sparked my interest. Also noticed Blueprint engines heads look like NKB's with BPE engraved on the faces and they seem too make great power on their sbc crates.
It might be interesting to to compare the cost of porting the cheap heads to get them to make as much power as the afr heads. I bet it would be more! What I thought was impressive with the AFR heads was how nice the power curve was, and is a sign of a lot of refinements.
@@richardholdener1727 If the porter is only allowed to "remove material", I would totally agree- at best all that would happen is the peak power might get close but would not have a nice power curve, because the port volume would have to get bigger, making it "lazy". If the porter is allowed to cut and re-weld, I bet it could be done but it would then be crazy expensive and almost certain to not last long. It is really hard to gain "good" airflow where the port doesnt loose alot of speed and keeps the gas and air well mixed, and have every port consistent.
They are pretty pricey,the only build I ever saw was in an old mag back in the day,it was the vic jr cam& lifter kit, vic jr heads along with the port matched intake,and a 750 cfm edelbrock carb, it was a 355 10.5 comp and it made if I recall around 508hp-515hp ish in the high 6k rpm range.
Sadly here in this case you get what you pay for. Thanks for testing, makes it easier to make an informed purchase decision. You're awesome, keep up the good work.👌🏻😎👍🏻
Hey Richard I enjoyed this. I knew the AFR head was going to produce the goods. It would’ve won out even if you had put it up against the larger CNC Procomp in the same comparison. I think it comes down to what you can afford, but for a $400 difference between the two CNC’s I’d beg for, borrow or steal the $400 bucks. Cheers & keep up the good work😊
Excellent video! I'm at this point now I have the same pro comp heads on a 383 I have ran them at the track and they are just not enough! Afr is where its at
The gains are definitely worth the extra money. No doubt about it! Unfortunately, not everyone can afford the heads. Some are forced to settle for the Chinese heads.
So the more expensive cylinder heads made 75-80 more horsepower, with the same cam, intake and exhaust. Why? Chamber size, intake and exhaust port design, valve shape(seal), all of the above?
Let's do middle of the road sbc heads, Flotek vs Promaxx vs Profiler vs Brodix IK vs AFR enforcer. All in 195ish to 200cc runner. All as cast. 64 chamber.
Now that is a super idea for the regular joe gearhead. I bought Flotek 190, 64cc sbc heads over cast gm fuelies and gm Vortecs to build a 327 L79 clone.
Really hoping my promaxx 190s do good things for me. Mines not a striker but the xe 274 flat tappet comp cam and flat tops with scat rods and a dual plane with 750dp. Here's hoping. If it makes close to 400 I'll be tickled.
About 20 years ago I built a 383 that made 447hp to the rear tires in a 3rd gen camaro. 11.4:1 compression. 93 octane. 28-29 degrees timing. Je pistons, 6” rods, Gm fast burn heads I ported, tpis mini ram intake, haltech ecm. Daily driver back in the late 90’s. Ran 11.4@122-124mph. Everything in the car still worked. That was with a 1.9 60ft on nitto 555r’s. Wish I knew what that motor made at the flywheel.
trillrif axegrindor you are out of your mind. They are far better than vortec heads. They had like a 210cc runner, 62cc chamber, .200 raised runner. They were an LS head before the Ls heads were even made. I say that because the chamber was far more efficient than any normal head. Like I stated above, I made 447 rear wheel hp with a slipping trans. I bought a set of trick flow R heads later on, thinking they would be better. Nope. Car ran the same. And the trick flows flowed more on the flow bench. I flowed both of them on the same flow bench. So I’m not sure what you are talking about. The fast burns are heads and shoulders above vortec heads.
I've seen several head guys claim "all" production aftermarket heads should be torn down and checked over because they have seen even higher dollar heads like Brodix have issues with quality control issues.... I guess can't hurt plus be ideal time put few hours in on em with a die grinder, weekend of smoothing could be worth an extra 15/20hp or more, on budget heads just a basic bowl port and remove flash off the runners will make a noticable difference in power and that's quick and easy.
They have see problems with AFR,Dart,Brodix, Edelbrock all the top name brand heads they found problems in the valve guide but if you buy them assembled the found even more things wrong with the heads that's why they say buy them bare
ALL heads have issues. I only buy bare, as cast heads for high performance builds. For a daily driven street engine, even the least expensive fully assembled heads will usually be fine. For a race engine, extra machining, flow testing and carefully chosen components, assembled by hand, are necessary.
I have a set of brodix iron killers on a mild 355 in my s10 build that runs very well they were right at $1000 for the pair ! as always thanks for all you do !
Depends on end goals. For boat work, more than half the value is removing weight. The Procomp/Speedmaster heads do that just fine. If the boat will be a cruiser, there is no need for AFR. If it's a go faster, yeah, you gotta spend the money :D But, I'm troubled by the test. How much of the HP difference was due to differences in compression? And I think it should have been as cast to as cast, or CNC to CNC, not one of each ...
Thank you. I've got an Alpha drive on the old 21' Chris Craft, so the extra 50-75hp from the "badass" set of AFRs would easily wreck the drive, whereas the cheap heads won't - but they'll still shave 75lb from the boat over the old iron vortecs. With the money saved, I bought a set of aluminum exhaust manifolds and risers that'll flow better than original iron "logs", plus save another 100lb from the boat. It's not a speed boat, but the new, 150lb lighter 355 with a 212/218* cam and 10.5:1 compression oughtta be a nice improvement.
I’m curious about the Promaxx 190 cc heads. I did some research, and they had quite a few more benefits to the Pro Comp heads. I port matched them, cleaned up the bowl areas, and cleaned up what little machinists ridge there was at the valve seats. Could you do a show on how making these modifications would help?
We're running hand-blended Patriots stage2 205 valves with 650 Max pack Springs have you ever tested any Patriot heads. Everybody on the internet says they're no good we've been running them since Patriot first produced them . Have ever tested Patriot or promaxx?
Nice comparison. I have 200cc intake ports as cast in my World Products Dart 2 Sportsman heads.202 intake 160 exhaust valves on a forged internals 385ci. Gen 1. They make good power and lots of torque. 10.5 to 1 compression. 502 hp at 6400rpm. Not enough these days though. There is a 6.0 in my work truck tho........
@@gt-37guy6 l used to race on street night at New England Dragway on Friday nights until l was told l need an 8 point cage by the track tech's after an 11.89 on a cold Oct evening.
Or maybe a bunch of stock heads like Double humps, 041, and 305’s vs cheaper name brand aluminum (Edelbrock E-Street, Promaxx, etc.) and cast iron (EQ, Dart Iron Eagle, World Torquers).
It's getting to the point that inexpensive aluminum heads like these ProComp/Speedmaster heads are less money than doing a full rebuild on a set of iron GM heads. $800 at the machine shop for stock iron heads, or spend the same for aluminum heads. No brainer really. As for cheap vs steep, I'm a big proponent of buying the absolute best cylinder head you can afford.
I believe the key to AFR's making power is their exhaust flow numbers and port shape and velocity. I was watching one show and they had a short interview with Kaase and he was saying a lot of guys chase the biggest flow numbers but without proper shape and velocity it doesn't matter. I can't remember which head he was talking about but he said that they could change the port and pick up airflow but when they did that they lost something like 50-100hp and that's what he was contributing it to. All I know is when Kaase starts talking about heads I listen.
The build quality between the two brands is completely different. You’d have to spend a few hundred on the Procomp head out of the box just to get the valves to seal.
You have got that right. And when that thin head goes through a few heat cycles it is leaking again, I've seen over 20 hp in the valve job. Maybe Richard will do that someday.
@@davidreed6070 They copy all the brand names & its all junk. You are better off to spend the extra dollars & get a quality product rather than end up paying more in the long run.
Yeah I wouldn't trust the china heads, I had a valve head fall off of a china valve and punched a hole in the piston on a ford 5.4. It was just a work truck, weren't even beating on it. Didn't save a cent doing that.
It is a shame the the intake valve pockets were not compared between the 2 makes of cylinder heads. The valve pocket is a critical area to good flow. I have a pair of Pro Comp heads and they will never flow good. In fact, I question it they will hold up due to some much missing aluminum under the intake seats. The pockets are huge with no attempt to guide air smoothly. In fact, the valve seat itself is an interference to flow due to the size of the pockets. I wasted my money completely. Maybe if I was a good aluminum welder, I could do some filling and profiling but are they worth the time and money?
I am running that same “first combo” same style pistons same cam same heads and I’m not impressed with how bad it noses over at 5500. I would be curious how much hand porting would help the procomp head
Would love to see an apple to apple comparison (within name brand) and see the difference between the AFR 195 cnc'ed street port and a AFR 195 Enforcer head on a 355 Chevrolet with a street/ strip type build. Decent compression, moderate hydraulic roller camshaft, dual plane intake, good ignition and the such.
@@richardholdener1727 But, it would show and give the average hotrodder the advantage or disadvantage of spending their hard earned money for something that they dont need or want. 9 1/2 to 1 to 10 to 1 compression, a hydraulic roller with 230 duration @.050" on the intake, decent dual plane intake, common 750 Vacuum carb and a great ignition with a "decent" (simple 1 5/8" primary) header. Thats probably 75% of the cars at car shows. Most of these folks will never spend the money for a set of ported/cnc'ed heads, but, it would give them an idea as to what they're missing... or, maybe not missing! Just saying...
I think that some of the difference between the ported AFR head and the ported Pro Comp head would have to do with differences in the companies CNC programs. I'd be curious to see what the result would be had AFR done both sets, or had someone like David Visard hand port both sets
It looks like the procomp had bad shrouding around the intake valve (no relief cut) The AFR has the spark plug way closer to the chamber roof and probably improves propagation direction. The AFR intake runner roof has a step in it to toss air towards the valve before bending in the bowl. Now I see how to port like AFR😉 THANKS for the view!
Going with the AFR’s over any cheap head means you have the power adder on all the time. I’m definitely buying the power for our 383 C20, it’ll be worth every dime!
The outdrive on my boat can't handle the extra power the more expensive heads can make. So the AFR would not only cost an extra grand, but they'd force to buy a $7000 heavy duty Bravo outdrive. YMMV
I had procomp heads on a 302 with tfs1 cam and trackheat intake in a fox mustang, it put down 250hp and 295lb-ft. I swapped the heads out for some 58cc tfs 170 heads and nothing else and the car put down 310hp and 343lb-ft. A 60hp gain at the wheels is huge, I always advise people to spend the money and get the brand name heads.
Here's what we need... A small block Chevy, tested with everything made for a SBC, vs everything made for a SBC, then we can decide!!! Then do it again for the BBC!! Thanks Richard, you're the best!!
I put 190cc AFR heads on my '85 Corvette back in 1993, replacing the stock cast iron L98 heads. I did the whole cam/heads/intake/headers thing all at once, as a winter project. I have run the the Corvette in road course use over about 16 seasons, and the AFR heads have never given a problem.
@Hello Kitteh Retrofit hydraulic roller. 224/230 effective duration. Comp Cams
@@andyharman3022 hell yeah man that sounds similiar to my build. AFR 195s and the XM276hr cam. same 224/230 split 112LSA
When I found a barely used set of AFR 195`s for $1000. I jumped on them and didn't bother to haggle.
I put I set of AFR 195 Eliminators on my 355 because I wanted the best head I could get out of the box and they didn’t disappoint!
I grabbed a pair of Pro Comp around 2007-2008. I just took em off yesterday. It was a budget build, and never had an issue. They were built with crane internals from a speed shop in LA. Looks like a little elbow grease and grinder work will be done this winter to get more flow! Hot roddin on a budget is super fun and you learn some cool stuff.
Richard, I was watching this while eating dinner, and everyone outside is shooting off fireworks. My little Jack Russell was cowering on the floor beside me. But when I started your video, she looked up and started wagging her tail. She must have thought you were talking to her, and your soothing voice erased her fear. Thanks man
I'd love to see a comparison of the procomp/speed master heads vs vortec heads
On a 383, you honestly need a 210cc or slightly larger port to make good power. Stock vortec heads are 170cc and would choke that motor down power wise, but make a shit ton of low rpm torque.
me too!!! or pro comp vs gt40 pro comp vs double hump!
It would be a better comparison. They are fairly equal. The pro comp heads do have the taller runners and I would recommend a vortec intake, because a factory gm high rise intake sets just below the top of the runner.
@@biggregsparks8364 not true, if it's the typical 6000 max rpm stroker kit the added flow isn't as helpful as you might imagine. For an na deal the higher velocity of the 195 street ports, and the stronger low lift flow will help drivability for the typical street car guy. Most guys aren't building a race car. And the added flow above 550 lift is pointless if you aren't spinning the rpm to take advantage of it... Again, I'm referring to na stuff. If using a power adder then sure. Also referencing afr cnc ported heads with stated flow bench data and known csa. Can't comment on the as cast import stuff. Although it's interesting how the afr 195s have been tested against some 200/210 speedmaster heads and basically kicked the shit out of them from idle to redline.
@@biggregsparks8364 the other thing this test isn't showing is you have even more flow with the afr and a properly spec cam. The afr will flow with around .550-.575 lift. So in truth a custom cam would show even more average power out of the afr.
As a previous owner of Pro Comp 180 (as cast) heads, it's my opinion they are great for a tight budget if you are seeking to upgrade to Aluminum heads. I found myself needing to replace a set of worked over 461's that had developed a crack & had very little to spend at the time. The throttle response was definitely lacking after the swap. Therefore when I recently replaced that engine I went with a set of AFR 180 CNC heads PN 916. I would only use those Pro Comps again if it was a stock to very mild daily driver.
Man, you do really good work. I appreciate that you do real comparisons that guys like me are interested in. Thanks for making good content!
Exactly the testing that I had wanted to see, Richard!! This is helpful for stuff we have and future projects!! Thanks much!! And dont forget us SBC guys, we're still out here!!
I would like to see the AFR195 as cast heads in a comparison. They seem to be a lot cheaper than the CNC heads, but they might be a lot less power as well.
Cause there Chinese
It comes down to an old saying “ you get what you paid for “ and for me i would be paying for the AFR heads any day of the week !!
You know exactly what you are buying , no surprises at all ! And all of the measurements are accurate!!
i bought some NEW aftermarket LS3 heads on craigslist for a screaming deal. Even got them CNC ported! Tossed em on the engine and the thing couldn't stay cool. My screaming deal craigslist LS3 heads had a plugged water jacket so there was NO water flow from the water pump. Waste of $2500, plus I gotta buy another known-good set of heads to replace em. I got what I paid for!!
@@rustysausage69 YOU BOUGHT THEM ON CRAIGSLIST,IDIOT
Not always, you gotta take those apart too and ck everything.
I have been running AFR heads for years on a boosted combination beating on them with great results and no problems definitely worth the price , you also have to consider that a low cost offshore head likely will suffer in heat treating and longevity issues with valve seats , heat treating , plus the AFR’s come with high quality valves and springs. Want to go fast and engine last eat lots of Kraft dinner till you have the money for quality components
AFR FTW! I have seen countless AFR dyno tests, and they never cease to amaze me every single time. They always make killer torque throughout the rpm range, from off idle until they let off the throttle! YES, they are and have always been very expensive...BUT if you are building yourself that once in a lifetime perfect engine that you want the most out of for maximum fun....AFR will always outrun the competition and it won't even be close! Don't put all kinds of money into a car and then skimp on the cylinder heads because THAT is where your power is at!
Won't matter if ya jammed some boost down it's throat gonna make power regardless. Cheap heads will make killer power with 144 or turbo.
@@armdrop101 Dont trust the guides in those heads....seats on the china heads are not iron I dont think they will handle the heat nearly as long as the usa heads with better seats.
Bottom line: An engine is basically a air pump. The more you can get into it, the more you'll get out of it.
You should do a budget head shoot out ,seems like everyone has a pair of heads in the 1000-1500$ range ,brodix ,trick flow ,pro filer, AFR ,all around the 190-200 cc range ,see were they all stand
Yup, and Edelbrock E Street, Promaxx, Blueprint, and on and on...
RHS was pretty good , but was 8 years ago I ran a set. Bought bare. Damn good head when I couldn't afford RHS
Would have liked to see a 461 cast iron production head in the mix as a base line to .
Great info. All your videos provide good information, but for me this was one of your better ones. Shows what you get for tour money. Thank you
I know someone always says it, but these videos are gold. thankyou!
I bought the AFR 210 heads when they first came out 20 years ago they were $1375 a pair assembled
Practically double now....not worth it to me anymore.
For 2k I can get into a set of BB heads and put work to them
As others have said its really not apples to apples when the afr's are cnc ported (which we know alone increases flow & therefore hp) and although port volume was close it would've been nicer to see a direct comparison with the same port volume, chamber volume(advertised of course) , and valve size. I think that would really be a fair test to see if the expensive heads are worth it.
CNC doesnt guarantee any more power thats a myth. Design has to be there other wise its just a pretty machined port
Seen a number of cnc programs for cheaper heads that really sucked. Could tell by their flow chart it was designed by a half azz porter
I would love to see a shoot out with the skip white nkb200/proheader/assault heads against a dart 200 platinum head. These are copies of the dart heads. A CNC program will work on the the above China heads, and they are pretty nice castings.
It’s not just about price it’s also has to do with where the heads are made. Like the budget made in China intake. We need to stop financing the enemy and stop shooting ourselves in the foot by also offshoring our industries. It matters!!!
I agree 1000% but in a tight economy seeing a performance oriented aluminum head on the cheap is to tempting to alot of gear heads but you get what you pay for shit even factory votecs with flow better than those mediocre pro comps alot don't realize it would be cheaper to snatch up some good used vortecs and grab the diy tools to mod em for more lift and rocker studs for under $100, get a die grinder and cheap sand roll set, carbide bit and a porting book and do some basic work and get seat of the pants improvement ya know
I hate turning in an old car battery to the scrap yard. I get a few bucks, but I think all the lead in it goes to China. Not Good.
I’m running a set of procomps on my 0.060 over 351-w. I just had to try a set out of curiosity and my opinion for people who don’t have the machine shop experience, go name brand cylinder heads and buy them bare and have a good reputable machine shop build them. I had to put about 25hrs into my set of procomps With cleaning up the castings, reshaping the combustion chambers, I redid the valve job because the margins where crap. I had to use two piece guide plates for proper valve train alignment. I went a best of 10.40’s on a 100 shot with a mechanical flat tappet camshaft. .500 intake-.522 exh. 225-235@ 0.050 on a 112 loc. TRW flat top forged pistons.
@@StainlessTIG2 yeah there's plenty of benefits to running even Chinese heads I just can't afford $2000 for set of big name ones and I'm not shure but I'd say the cheap line of big name ones may use Chinese castings? Maby not. I just have a set of 993 GM castings that came with bowl port, 2.02 .60 S/S under cut valves and studs from arrowhead bout 20 years ago I did the rest of the porting and polishing and I can say they work pretty good as much as people trash em, yhey actually flow pretty good there downside is the chambers are not that good but with flat tops I have 9:1 that's a good street compression for iron heads. With a Howards 232 480 108 lsa cam original Torker and roller rockers it is pretty damn healthy, no its not 400+ HP but I'd say 350+ even tho the forum experts have said be lucky break 300... common...wtf. but in a 92 c1500 it does cook along
@@95Sn95 the 993s actually outflow the double humps! The problem being the 76cc chambers compared to 64cc. It made quite a difference in our dirt track pure stock motor, years ago, to run the smaller valves good casting 305 heads, because of the increased combustion. We weren't allowed Vortec heads, and only flat top pistons and a max lift of .450! Very restrictive rules.
Would love to see this same test but for the cast iron heads, stock vortec heads vs dart iron eagle vs maybe world products, you get my drift
That's what I'm talking about.
Dart and RHS win.
Cast iron vs vortec!!!!
i wanna see a speedmaster head hand ported and polished go against the afr head
Glad you said that i have a pair of procom 210cc heads these heads can be ported bigtime i did mine and i will tell you my 78 malibu 358 is stupid fast i just bought a set of afr 195 inforcer heads im porting them now cant wait to see the diff im opening them up as much as i can
stupid comparison,you could spend 100+ hours hand porting a set of heads,what does it prove? you can not port to cnc repeatability and efficiency EVER.....EVEN THE BEST HEAD PORTING GUYS CAN NOT DO IT
I bet the afr still spanks it. Plus I know the seats and guides are better quality, holes in the right places thicker deck etc.
I've got a 347 with pro comp heads 190cc and just bought AFR 195cc heads, I'm so glad finally theres a test to prove AFR is worth it... thank you for doing this test
I have the afr 195's on a very similar engine. 383 10:2:1 rpm intake lunati 270hr and it's a great daily driver that will destroy tires at will.
Ya shoulda done the AFR as cast head. When r u gonna do a 350 Olds, Pontiac, and Buick comparison? I love watching your show. It's extremely informative. It's like a drug that I can't get enough of. LOL!! Keep up da great work. From Chicago Matt Da Hippy.
Thank you Richard for sharing your work. You truly are a Engine Master
Id like to see a shootout between aftermarket gen 2 lt1 heads, and a popular porting job on stock heads from lloyd elliot.
Also the AFR 195 head has 8mm valve stems, bigger 2.05 intake valve, and 5 angle valve seats. That head has more than just the basic CNC stuff. So of course it should out perform a as cast cheap heads. I would love to see the sane AFR 195 comparison with the Trick flow 195 as cast, now that would be a treat. But still Richard always has good content!!!
Forgot bout the larger valve n better VJ in my reply, good points!
Compatibility is the game. One can throw 10k or 3k into a motor and have the same reliability and performance numbers. When I build motors I figure out budget, performance requirements, and planned drivetrain. Then go from there. Many times I end up getting a Chevrolet Performance create motor and adding a few items to keep the budget below 3-4k for a new motor with a few speed parts sitting between 300 - 350hp and should get 100,000 miles. That power level is usually enough to get you in trouble but not enough you have to spend 10k in drivetrain upgrades.
Most cases anything more then that is lost/never used power. But as mentioned you will start having to drop money into the driveline to handle the power and don't forget about suspension, brakes, and tires. Point is it can snow ball quickly into not just 10k for the motor but another 10-20k for everything needed to put the power to the road reliably.
This is getting better and better Richard... Your hitting every angle of the engine world💪🏾💪🏾💪🏾
I had some S/R torques on my 383 Chevy. Almost all the valve springs cracked. Replaced all the springs and it was fine. After that,I'm never buying budget heads again. I heard many times that they are basically thrown together with crummy tolerances with cheap parts. I'd rather just save up and get what I really want,put together with quality parts. Eventually about a year later,a valve seat cracked in one of those torquers. I slapped on some used vortec heads. It felt like that 383 gained about 20hp. Just because it's aftermarket doesn't mean it's better.
Interesting, thanks.
I'm curious about the Edelbrock offerings. They are marketed as a sort of 'middle-of-the-road' head option.
Would like to see that too. I have Edelbrock Performer RPM 64 CC heads. Going on my 355 with lunati voodoo cam
I'm not sure how I messed this one Richard. Outstanding and useful shootout. Well done!
Great video! I appreciate you putting all this together for all of us to see. If you need any new content ideas, I agree with a lot of the other comments. I would love to see the middle ground heads like the brodix ik, blueprint 195s, Edelbrock e street and so on. As always great stuff.
I would like to see that too
Hi richard holdener. Now you can test the as cast heads against the AFR enforcer As Cast heads 195cc probably need to cc the intake runner.
I would like to see the cheap heads run again with a good valve job and a proper set of springs
But by the time you do all that might as well just buy a good head
I have a set of pro comp casting. Put good valves and springs in. Complete for both heads in $700 BRAND NEW. And that's small block mopar. Not one issue here
@@daddysbrokegarage the castings aren't super consistent with the pro comps. There are definitely worse, but they're not the best I've ever seen.
The ProMaxx heads are a surprisingly good casting for the money, have them checked and assembled properly by a machinist and they'll put down good power for the money.
Regardless you have to check every brand of heads I don't care if it's AFR Frankenstein to pro comp... Ask any real builder... And yes pro comp can make Power
Add to this is the Procomp heads are generally softer alloy, not even consistent on the same head! So they A do not retain the headgasket near as well. B blow headgaskets as the deck flexes.
Plus assembly and valve and spring quality is not near as good. While I have never hear of a valve breaking they do stretch plus the [roller] rocker marks the valve tip. And the inserts have been known to burrow into the alloy or worse break.
This on all cheaper heads, The ProComp just one of the worse.
Though I have had assemblies from Edelbrock that were NOT machined very well either. But they did make better power than the cheapos.
I would like to see a head porting competition from well known head porters. On same head and engine combo. And then dyno
That would be awesome!
Put up numbers from a set of sbc proheaders I did shortly after they came out. All these yrs later they still come out on top. I got called bs online by a few well knowns but know for a fact they are legit.
I am running a set of dart motown heads
220 intake runners
2.05 intake
1.60 exhaust
67 cc chambers
I run 12.1 pistons with a single plane intake , pro-form 750 double pumper
Hyd cam ,560/585 lift
320/325 duration 110 lobe separation msd 7AL ignition with a pro power coil
aluminum vs cast I will go with aluminum .
Thank you for your time and consideration on this subject 👍
If I have learned anything from engine masters it is buy the best head and intake you can afford.
Well, My response is pretty neutral because I agree with most of the comments that I read.
First, I want to say that I enjoy your work and videos. Thank you!
Now, when you were talking about what the cheapo CNCd heads did, keep in mind that this is on the older,milder 383. I took the gains over as-cast as a percentage and applied it to the 405 hp of the current cheapo results and it doesn't look as pathetic!
I would agree to go with the AFR heads, if you can afford them.
Now, if you can port your own heads, the cheapo heads could do more. If you are broke and your budget is either used factory or the cheapo heads, they might be a bargain.
Now, consider how much time you are going to invest in porting them. Do you want to invest your time in the cheapo ones?
I believe that you could nearly match the cheapo heads with a set of used Vortec heads. I know that you weren't doing junkyard heads here. I guess the cheapo can be used on a completely bad budget but I would still lean towards a less expensive, brand name head...
I agree with buying American and also think folks need to realize something else. When you buy foreign, you aren't just losing American jobs but you are losing the Manufacturing ability of the shops that you helped put out of business...
Ya'll Take care and be safe, John
I'm curious how as-cast AFR hads would have fared in this test.
Me too. A bit less pricey as cast.
Cast heads will preform just as good as the pricey aluminum heads
@The Truth about Africa hurts we aren't talking about cast aluminum here I'm talking about cast heads such as vortec chevy heads your machine shop can machine them to be some of the best performance heads ever I know I run them on dirt track
@The Truth about Africa hurts them being aluminum really doesn't affect the way they preform not enough to feel it behind the wheel but aluminum you can cut and modify alot easier plus you get a weight reduction and they do run a little cooler and cooler fuel means better mixture and bigger booms
This is knowledge and knowledge is power. Thank you Richard!
I've been waiting for this!
I bought EBAY Old Nascar Phase 5 Aluminum Bowties, Pulled old 80's .740 lift solid roller used comp bracket cam we had laying around new pistons, rods, old craigslist Strip Dominator w 2" spacer 850 carb 355 CI 11.75:1 compression New comp lifters I will say I went with 3/8 push rods and had a really good full kick out pan on it Dynoed 565HP The head cam combo was killer ( we were racing it whether it was or not) We call it the EBAY motor You can build some fun reliable stuff if you pay attention and do your homework.
Customer: I want to go fast.
Shop: How much money do you have......Money = Speed.🤔
However, as hi end technology continues to trickle down to the unwashed masses (a CD player was 300 bucks 30 years ago, now you can get one for 30), you can go much faster for a low price than you could in the 90s. Competition between brands is good for consumers.
So much cheaper to buy a ZX-14 or a Hayabusa than build a motor, transmission and drivetrain for a car if you want to go fast.
@@2010HarleyDynaFXD, Totally not the same
@@joejones9944 not the same but you go a hell of a lot faster per dollar
Did I hear him right? Did he say ass hat heads?
what i want to know about is the durability of the valves, spring, retainers, keepers, & rocker studs in the cheap heads?
Yep-our dyno test doesn't tell that
You should have baselined the test with some factory vortec heads. Everyone says how great they flow, but there are not a lot of tests comparing them. You should do a test with a set of fuelies, 882’s, and vortecs.
There are some of those tests out there. Cant say where exactly. But the votec is better than all of those stock heads.
I would think the guys using the speed master heads are stepping up from factory iron heads with 76cc chambers
Never skimp on your cylinder heads,if your trying to build a performance engine ya want the best heads you can afford. AFR is expensive heads but you can’t beat the out the box power capability that their heads make. I have a set of the 220 comp heads on my 427 small block Chevy and even though they costed me close to $2500 they was worth every penny. 650 horsepower in a 2800 pound Chevy II makes for lots of fun so trust me spend the money ya won’t regret it and after all it’s only money your not going to take it with ya and it’s meant to be spent anyhow.
I have an NHRA SS/J Chevy II I use NHRA legal Edelbrock heads on. Its a 327 that makes 780 hp @ 8500 RPM. It too is a 2800 lb car with a full interior, 6 point roll bar, and no modifications to the body or the hood. My question to you is why in the hell would you build a 427 cubic inch small block when a 427 big block will blow it away so bad its not funny? Youre making 650 horsepower? Yea right and Im the Pope. Spin it to 7 grand for any length of time and youll have pistons and rods scattered all over the track. You guys with your mixed matched pieces and parts crack me up. So what is its E.T. and MPH on a quarter mile track anyway?
@@MasterWitchDoctor there’s nothing mismatched and the question isn’t why its more of why not?? It’s a new millennia,technology has come a long way. It has a dart lil M block and there’s no doubt the motor would make way more power but it’s a street car and was built for 300 shot but you clearly know it all. I know it’s not very practical no but it’s a toy. As for turn it any real rpm,well I shift it at 7300rpm and rods are still in it and I would have to go dig the time slips out the glove box for exacts but it runs 9.80’s all day on motor. I never get more then one pass as I get kicked out every time as I have no cage. It’s a ladder bar car that’s all that has been done so I could put a 26x10 slick without cutting the car up. It does have frame ties an a simple bolt in coil overs up front. Still have the factory cammed lower control arms up front and upper A arms and strut rods,Still has the rear steer that the first gens came stock with. That’s exactly why I didn’t go big block when clearly the cylinder heads well out flow most factory style engines,but have ya ever tried shoe horning a big block into a first gen x-body? Especially with it still having a factory front clip. It’s 64 factory SS car so I wasn’t cutting it up especially when it was my fathers car. The engine is capable of a lot more when it was on the dyno,it had a 750 street dominator on it. It now has 1100 pro systems .699intake .702exhaust can’t recall the exact duration and Doug 1 3/4 inch primary with 3 inch collectors. They make 2 inch fender well exit but again didn’t wanna cut the car up. If ya ever in the south east Michigan area and wanna put ya money where your mouths at?? I know quiet little section of road that we can go and see if your shit can hang. I won’t even spray it and will let you the nitrous line off and tape it your self so ya can see it’ll be all motor.
@@85gbody97 220c.p are real nice heads...got a new set for my 383 but had to sell due to health/not working
His point was on a BB 427 say an afr 265 can make much more power than a 220cc sbc head.
Good info , looking for 450 hp on a budget 383 stroker 97 chevy truck motor
Use Vortec heads and you'll have that all day long!
I think you could have added Blue Point and Eldebrock heads to get some that where more mid range although they are far from cheap. The added torque and horsepower is impressive.
You mean Blueprint? Autocorrect gotcha!
Not sure how your reading my mind Richard. But I am building a 383sbc forged bottom end with with flat tops, and the XE284 camshaft and some older pro topline steel heads. And I’ve been trying to figure out dual plain or single plain. Now I know. Thanks!
I'd like to see the same test with higher compression. Step it up to 11:1 and I bet the AFR heads really start showing its true colors but even at 10:1 it was a considerable difference. Great vid 👍
....or you can spend that extra AFR head $ on a 76mm ebay turbo and make double the power with the China heads. I'm on a page called the driveway engineer where 30k a year mechanics make 9 sec drag cars on 8k budgets. Learned a lot about how to go really fast on a budget.
Thanks Richard. Very diplomatic comparison. I have heard some of the Chinese performance parts such as heads won’t even bolt on some engines. The old saying you get what you pay for has never been more relevant.
Why don't you guy's used a 600 lift roller cam to test both heads.
I'd like to see how mild hand porting helps these.
I love the low end torque of a SBC! Been debating on putting a cam/head SBC in my truck over a LS.
Ls 6.0 wit a truck norris cam makes a flatter torque curve and more peak torque. Imlo.
ua-cam.com/video/-tRvLiJbdzc/v-deo.html
Go to 3:00
@@safetyfirstintexas thats not a 6.0 in that video
@@joshuadyck4861 where did i say it was?
@@safetyfirstintexas not saying you did, but you talked about a 6.0 with cam and then referenced that video, kinda implies that
@@joshuadyck4861 people are creative like that
Your videos are enlightening thank you and your crew for all you do!
I've had one too many problems with Pro Comp, aka: Speedmaster... which brings up the whole point, why the name change? That's a hint in my estimation.
Universally known as poor!
I'd like too see roundup comparison of budget heads. Like Vortecs vs. ProComps(speedM) vs. NKB ect. The NKB heads SkipWhite sells have sparked my interest. Also noticed Blueprint engines heads look like NKB's with BPE engraved on the faces and they seem too make great power on their sbc crates.
It might be interesting to to compare the cost of porting the cheap heads to get them to make as much power as the afr heads. I bet it would be more! What I thought was impressive with the AFR heads was how nice the power curve was, and is a sign of a lot of refinements.
not sure you could get there with the Speedmaster 190 heads-maybe a good porter
@@richardholdener1727 If the porter is only allowed to "remove material", I would totally agree- at best all that would happen is the peak power might get close but would not have a nice power curve, because the port volume would have to get bigger, making it "lazy". If the porter is allowed to cut and re-weld, I bet it could be done but it would then be crazy expensive and almost certain to not last long. It is really hard to gain "good" airflow where the port doesnt loose alot of speed and keeps the gas and air well mixed, and have every port consistent.
fun but stupid idea,welding and machining an inferior pile of crap to "try" to make it better isnt worth the massive headache it would create
BTE Thanks for your content I believe I got complete set for around $900.00 It had titanium intake valves they didnt even advertise too.
Great video , Is anyone ever going to do an Edelbrock Victor jnr head SBC youtube video ? Richard should be the first !!
They are pretty pricey,the only build I ever saw was in an old mag back in the day,it was the vic jr cam& lifter kit, vic jr heads along with the port matched intake,and a 750 cfm edelbrock carb, it was a 355 10.5 comp and it made if I recall around 508hp-515hp ish in the high 6k rpm range.
I have a 383 and am in the market for new heads. I also think I'm in the market for a single plane intake.
Love your videos !
Brett from Montana .
Hey Richard can you do a test on a 3inch Y pipe vs. a 3inch dual exhaust on a 383, 350, or LS?
I have that set up on a third gen. With long tube headers.
Sounds awesome. Runs damn good too.
Engine Masters already did that test. Check it out on Motortrend on demand
Engine masters did this recently
@@656hookemhorns what of you dont have motor trend on demand?
@@adalmadera25 Subscribe, if you can afford it, good value in my opinion.
Sadly here in this case you get what you pay for.
Thanks for testing, makes it easier to make an informed purchase decision.
You're awesome, keep up the good work.👌🏻😎👍🏻
It depends what you’re looking for. For a daily/street toy, pro comp heads are just fine.
Hey Richard I enjoyed this. I knew the AFR head was going to produce the goods. It would’ve won out even if you had put it up against the larger CNC Procomp in the same comparison. I think it comes down to what you can afford, but for a $400 difference between the two CNC’s I’d beg for, borrow or steal the $400 bucks.
Cheers & keep up the good work😊
Yea and put the bigger AFR on aka 210cc to 210cc and retest...shit...
Excellent video! I'm at this point now I have the same pro comp heads on a 383 I have ran them at the track and they are just not enough! Afr is where its at
The gains are definitely worth the extra money. No doubt about it! Unfortunately, not everyone can afford the heads. Some are forced to settle for the Chinese heads.
I cant afford to do it twice (again). Rather save for yrs if need be and get it right the first time
I wonder what the difference in reliability is? Anyone put a hundred thousand miles on a set of those heads?
i have the blue print engine version of the pro comps Part #: H8002K they run about 900 bucks which when you're on a budget is a great deal.
we have run a lot of BPE stuff
Either version of the sbc BPE are not the same as procomp, different ports and chamber
So the more expensive cylinder heads made 75-80 more horsepower, with the same cam, intake and exhaust. Why? Chamber size, intake and exhaust port design, valve shape(seal), all of the above?
CNC PORTING,better quality machining,better quality parts,better quality cnc programming
Let's do middle of the road sbc heads, Flotek vs Promaxx vs Profiler vs Brodix IK vs AFR enforcer. All in 195ish to 200cc runner. All as cast. 64 chamber.
Never did a direct comparison but I really liked the ik200s
Now that is a super idea for the regular joe gearhead. I bought Flotek 190, 64cc sbc heads over cast gm fuelies and gm Vortecs to build a 327 L79 clone.
Really hoping my promaxx 190s do good things for me. Mines not a striker but the xe 274 flat tappet comp cam and flat tops with scat rods and a dual plane with 750dp. Here's hoping. If it makes close to 400 I'll be tickled.
Stock Ls heads out do them all
@@horsefly1020 good thing this video isn't about LS heads then huh
About 20 years ago I built a 383 that made 447hp to the rear tires in a 3rd gen camaro. 11.4:1 compression. 93 octane. 28-29 degrees timing. Je pistons, 6” rods, Gm fast burn heads I ported, tpis mini ram intake, haltech ecm. Daily driver back in the late 90’s. Ran 11.4@122-124mph. Everything in the car still worked. That was with a 1.9 60ft on nitto 555r’s. Wish I knew what that motor made at the flywheel.
why? fastburns are crap even compared to vortecs
trillrif axegrindor you are out of your mind. They are far better than vortec heads. They had like a 210cc runner, 62cc chamber, .200 raised runner. They were an LS head before the Ls heads were even made. I say that because the chamber was far more efficient than any normal head. Like I stated above, I made 447 rear wheel hp with a slipping trans. I bought a set of trick flow R heads later on, thinking they would be better. Nope. Car ran the same. And the trick flows flowed more on the flow bench. I flowed both of them on the same flow bench. So I’m not sure what you are talking about. The fast burns are heads and shoulders above vortec heads.
I have heard that the cheap ones can have valves leaking and play in the components but maybe they are getting quality control down
Just call and ask if they have any cosmetic damage heads in stock they would give you a discount on
I've seen several head guys claim "all" production aftermarket heads should be torn down and checked over because they have seen even higher dollar heads like Brodix have issues with quality control issues.... I guess can't hurt plus be ideal time put few hours in on em with a die grinder, weekend of smoothing could be worth an extra 15/20hp or more, on budget heads just a basic bowl port and remove flash off the runners will make a noticable difference in power and that's quick and easy.
They have see problems with AFR,Dart,Brodix, Edelbrock all the top name brand heads they found problems in the valve guide but if you buy them assembled the found even more things wrong with the heads that's why they say buy them bare
Even the expensive heads still need to be gone thru to be sure.... Had to do so with all the heads I've ever bought. World/Edelbrock/AFRs....
ALL heads have issues. I only buy bare, as cast heads for high performance builds. For a daily driven street engine, even the least expensive fully assembled heads will usually be fine. For a race engine, extra machining, flow testing and carefully chosen components, assembled by hand, are necessary.
I have a set of brodix iron killers on a mild 355 in my s10 build that runs very well they were right at $1000 for the pair ! as always thanks for all you do !
I was told a long time ago, buy the best head you can afford. I will work more side jobs to afford AFR
They're worth it
Depends on end goals. For boat work, more than half the value is removing weight. The Procomp/Speedmaster heads do that just fine.
If the boat will be a cruiser, there is no need for AFR. If it's a go faster, yeah, you gotta spend the money :D
But, I'm troubled by the test. How much of the HP difference was due to differences in compression?
And I think it should have been as cast to as cast, or CNC to CNC, not one of each ...
Thank you. I've got an Alpha drive on the old 21' Chris Craft, so the extra 50-75hp from the "badass" set of AFRs would easily wreck the drive, whereas the cheap heads won't - but they'll still shave 75lb from the boat over the old iron vortecs. With the money saved, I bought a set of aluminum exhaust manifolds and risers that'll flow better than original iron "logs", plus save another 100lb from the boat. It's not a speed boat, but the new, 150lb lighter 355 with a 212/218* cam and 10.5:1 compression oughtta be a nice improvement.
I’m curious about the Promaxx 190 cc heads. I did some research, and they had quite a few more benefits to the Pro Comp heads. I port matched them, cleaned up the bowl areas, and cleaned up what little machinists ridge there was at the valve seats. Could you do a show on how making these modifications would help?
you added about 5-8 horsepower
We're running hand-blended Patriots stage2 205 valves with 650 Max pack Springs have you ever tested any Patriot heads. Everybody on the internet says they're no good we've been running them since Patriot first produced them . Have ever tested Patriot or promaxx?
tested both and both worked well on our test
Nice comparison. I have 200cc intake ports as cast in my World Products Dart 2 Sportsman heads.202 intake 160 exhaust valves on a forged internals 385ci. Gen 1. They make good power and lots of torque. 10.5 to 1 compression. 502 hp at 6400rpm. Not enough these days though. There is a 6.0 in my work truck tho........
Eric, are you racing? Or a street power junkie? I like the thought process...
@@gt-37guy6 l used to race on street night at New England Dragway on Friday nights until l was told l need an 8 point cage by the track tech's after an 11.89 on a cold Oct evening.
@@ericbengtson3490 Outstanding work! Just wondering, I don't race, just addicted to Buick 455 torque...
I would like to see the ProComp versus a stock aluminum head.
an L98 head? with the small chamber?
Or maybe a bunch of stock heads like Double humps, 041, and 305’s vs cheaper name brand aluminum (Edelbrock E-Street, Promaxx, etc.) and cast iron (EQ, Dart Iron Eagle, World Torquers).
Hey Richard you ever do any sb2 head testing?
I have not-pretty small market
Good head if your building a 800hp NA SBC.
@@richardholdener1727 Richard, at 4:25 in the video, what is the pipe plug in the front of the block, just above the timing cover, for ?
GREAT VIDEO RICHARD!!!! BOTHARE GREAT HEADS. DEPENDING ON YOUR BUDGET.
It's getting to the point that inexpensive aluminum heads like these ProComp/Speedmaster heads are less money than doing a full rebuild on a set of iron GM heads. $800 at the machine shop for stock iron heads, or spend the same for aluminum heads. No brainer really. As for cheap vs steep, I'm a big proponent of buying the absolute best cylinder head you can afford.
I believe the key to AFR's making power is their exhaust flow numbers and port shape and velocity. I was watching one show and they had a short interview with Kaase and he was saying a lot of guys chase the biggest flow numbers but without proper shape and velocity it doesn't matter. I can't remember which head he was talking about but he said that they could change the port and pick up airflow but when they did that they lost something like 50-100hp and that's what he was contributing it to. All I know is when Kaase starts talking about heads I listen.
The build quality between the two brands is completely different. You’d have to spend a few hundred on the Procomp head out of the box just to get the valves to seal.
You have got that right. And when that thin head goes through a few heat cycles it is leaking again, I've seen over 20 hp in the valve job. Maybe Richard will do that someday.
I’ve heard the guides wouldn’t last long either.
@@timtodd6830 Procomp is junk!!
They have a bad reputation in Australia. Chinese made rubbish
@@davidreed6070
They copy all the brand names & its all junk. You are better off to spend the extra dollars & get a quality product rather than end up paying more in the long run.
Yeah I wouldn't trust the china heads, I had a valve head fall off of a china valve and punched a hole in the piston on a ford 5.4. It was just a work truck, weren't even beating on it. Didn't save a cent doing that.
It is a shame the the intake valve pockets were not compared between the 2 makes of cylinder heads. The valve pocket is a critical area to good flow. I have a pair of Pro Comp heads and they will never flow good. In fact, I question it they will hold up due to some much missing aluminum under the intake seats. The pockets are huge with no attempt to guide air smoothly. In fact, the valve seat itself is an interference to flow due to the size of the pockets. I wasted my money completely. Maybe if I was a good aluminum welder, I could do some filling and profiling but are they worth the time and money?
I am running that same “first combo” same style pistons same cam same heads and I’m not impressed with how bad it noses over at 5500. I would be curious how much hand porting would help the procomp head
When you say "noses over", is it breaking up from valve float, or just running out of steam?
@@jeffrykopis5468 doesn’t break up or misfire or anything, but it’s like it hits a wall and runs out of steam
@@jeffrykopis5468 I probably need stiffer valve springs either way
Would love to see an apple to apple comparison (within name brand) and see the difference between the AFR 195 cnc'ed street port and a AFR 195 Enforcer head on a 355 Chevrolet with a street/ strip type build. Decent compression, moderate hydraulic roller camshaft, dual plane intake, good ignition and the such.
A MILD COMBO WON'T BE ABLE TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF WHAT A GOOD HEAD HAS TO OFFER
@@richardholdener1727 But, it would show and give the average hotrodder the advantage or disadvantage of spending their hard earned money for something that they dont need or want. 9 1/2 to 1 to 10 to 1 compression, a hydraulic roller with 230 duration @.050" on the intake, decent dual plane intake, common 750 Vacuum carb and a great ignition with a "decent" (simple 1 5/8" primary) header. Thats probably 75% of the cars at car shows. Most of these folks will never spend the money for a set of ported/cnc'ed heads, but, it would give them an idea as to what they're missing... or, maybe not missing! Just saying...
AFR new Budget Enforcer heads are about $900 complete.
I think that some of the difference between the ported AFR head and the ported Pro Comp head would have to do with differences in the companies CNC programs. I'd be curious to see what the result would be had AFR done both sets, or had someone like David Visard hand port both sets
Would that difference been even more apparent with say a solid roller cam with around 250 duration at 050 and 0.625 lift?
It would
I’m using the Nkb 200 with 9.8 to 1 heads ported with gt3582s @.050 254/265 .600/.600 114 LSA solid roller wish me luck.
Even tho I'm not a Chevy guy. I really appreciate this video . And who would of known the gains would of been that substantial!
It looks like the procomp had bad shrouding around the intake valve (no relief cut)
The AFR has the spark plug way closer to the chamber roof and probably improves propagation direction.
The AFR intake runner roof has a step in it to toss air towards the valve before bending in the bowl.
Now I see how to port like AFR😉 THANKS for the view!
Going with the AFR’s over any cheap head means you have the power adder on all the time. I’m definitely buying the power for our 383 C20, it’ll be worth every dime!
The outdrive on my boat can't handle the extra power the more expensive heads can make. So the AFR would not only cost an extra grand, but they'd force to buy a $7000 heavy duty Bravo outdrive. YMMV
I had procomp heads on a 302 with tfs1 cam and trackheat intake in a fox mustang, it put down 250hp and 295lb-ft. I swapped the heads out for some 58cc tfs 170 heads and nothing else and the car put down 310hp and 343lb-ft. A 60hp gain at the wheels is huge, I always advise people to spend the money and get the brand name heads.
Here's what we need...
A small block Chevy, tested with everything made for a SBC, vs everything made for a SBC, then we can decide!!!
Then do it again for the BBC!!
Thanks Richard, you're the best!!
EVERYTHING MADE FOR A SBC?