Drinker's Chasers - How Star Wars And JJ Abrams Destroyed Each Other
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- Опубліковано 15 гру 2023
- Its interesting that the man who brought Star Wars back to movie theatres, also turned out to be the architect of its downfall, only for the franchise to pull his career down with it. JJ Abrams - the saviour and destroyer of Star Wars.
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I am 50 years old. I grew up on 80's scifi/horror. I have never been as shocked and dumbfounded in the theater as when Rose "rescued" Finn from saving the rebels.
1983 was 40 years ago but it feels closer to 400.
I'm also 50
Same.
That scene actually angered me. Like genuinely infuriated me so much that I loudly shouted at the screen. I never did that before in somewhat of 30+ years of going to the movies, except when I was a kid an got excited. But the entire RoS movie had me so annoyed that at the point I just couldn't hold back anymore...
That scene was written be people who have no knowledge in story telling and absolutely no live experience.
@@richtifilmpalast5373 TLJ is the only movie that when the end credits appeared made me feel genuinely angry. For me it was that Holdo would die and there was no spy to explain her behavior through all the movie. To add insult to injury she died making a mockery of all the previous movies as to defeat the empire fleet a simple kamikaze in autopilot had been enough to destroy it. Fortunately I have forgotten such an obnoxious character as Rose Tico.
I would say that JJ destroyed himself and exposed how terrible KK is at running anything more complex than a coffee machine.
Savage! But not wrong.
Even a coffee machine is expecting too much from her.
Coffee machines have moving parts so you're wrong on that one
They both exposed how awful they were, once given unchecked opportunity, coffee notwithstanding.
I heard the original director of episode nine quit because Rian Johnson left him such a dumpster fire with episode eight and had sabotaged all the things he wanted to do with episode nine. I actually never finished the trilogy because I could never finish The Last Jedi. I tried to watch it three times on Netflix, first time I watched maybe the first 35-40 minutes, the second time about 15 minutes and the third time another 10-15 minutes, each time going, OK, it's now hit rock bottom, it can't get any worse, but it always did.
'Palpatine is back somehow.'
Truly amazing writing.
We didn't kill villains in the past - they got away or were imprisoned until a script needed them again - even George knew this at the end of 'A New Hope' (I hate not using the original Star Wars). Now they kill everyone and everything - never thinking about the future.
@@terrylandess6072 They also make the stakes of death irrelevant when you can just magic up a ressurection
I think it would have been better if the story had Finn and Poe, sent to track down the leader of the First Order, they pick up because, force user might help find Kylo.
Kylo ominously encounters and tries to dissuade them from their search which through various continuations leads back to Palpatine, and he wants to use sith knowledge to take over Reys body because she has the strongest connection and is related to him.
He then takes over Rey, and Kylo Ren shows up to fight her and save the rebels because he's had enough being used.
He is wounded in the fight but enable Rey to break free of Palpatine and she can kill the Palpatine husk.
Kylo can either die, or heal and disappear determined to carve his own path free of light and dark domination and Rey can honor Luke by rebuilding the Jedi order.
It's not perfect but it is my ideal for a salvage operation after TLJ
I remember thinking to myself when they introduced the trailer back in 2015 for the new Star Wars movies "I hope they do the Thrawn trilogy that we had in the books." They could have made the whole Palpatine cloning-thing actually work if they followed the plot line written by Timothy Zahn with the characters they already cast.
@@pbear7304 Plus George Lucas (at the time anyway) had endorsed the Thrawn trilogy as the official canon. What a wasted opportunity.
JJ had always been an unimaginative hack. He takes past ideas, puts a fanfic spin on it, and adds some glitter. Like macaroni art Mona Lisa.
And camera flares…
Fanfiction is made by fans.
JJ makes questions. It's why Lost was so intriguing at the start but got worse with time. He never has answers for the questions, but the audience is always happy to theory craft until they realize they've written a better story than he did.
He certainly defiled Trek.
@christopherjannette5863 I watched 2 episodes of Lost before I realized "These writers have no explanations for the mysteries they're setting up. They're literally just making it up as they go along knowing people will watch under the delusion that answers are coming."
Never watched it since. Garbage.
He destroyed Star Wars, Star Trek and Lost. I won't miss him.
Same.
He didn't "destroy" Lost, it was directionless trash for smooth brains from the start and I recall someone (may have be Abrams himself but I don't remember) admitting that they would write the big twists with no plan or even intention for them to pay off. Abrams is a hack and his career is a result of nepotism.
@@EronimusRexthey wanted to end the season after season 3 but the executives said no, do you know how hard it is to get a show people come back to in massive numbers
@@EronimusRexDidn't JJ kinda do the same thing with Lost that he did Star Wars? Like started it with no direction and 2 other guys took over?
@@Spaciousfootthat's because people trusted the showrunners actually had a plan for all the stupid shit they were doing. It was really the first show that just piled on twists and cliffhangers with zero intentions of resolving any of them. For years, people were convinced there was some grand scheme and hidden clues.
JJ is responsible for the most hack/trash television ever created. Just because he had morons tuning in, doesn't mean it was good, at all.
They were able to milk that trend for another good couple of years with garbage like prison break ect.. before people figured it out.
Its television for super tards.
The Star Wars prequels, for all of their faults, were at least one person's coherent artistic vision and a story with a beginning, a middle and an end. When you reached the final showdown between Obi-Wan and Anakin, it had dramatic weight because the entire trilogy had been building up to that moment and the audience knew what was happening and why.
Exactly, Lucas told a poor story but I *see* what he was trying to do with the prequels and I can forgive him for his shitty job. To put it another way, the prequels were an earnest but ultimately bad. The Sequels are meanspirited and a level of bad that makes me look back at the wooden dialogue from the prequels and say "Perhaps I treated you too harshly."
I loved the prequels. Jar jar n all. No complaints at all.
@@ajsouza3720 Correction: he told a great story, poorly. The distinction is important.
@xSilentZeroXx even then it's mostly just bad dialogue
@@ajsouza3720No. George wrote a spectacular story in ep1-3. When you peel the layers you see just how well thought out the story is. The problem is the dialogue. There is a vast difference between story and screenplay. Plus Lucas has admitted he struggles with dialogue, but then Star Wars has never been known for that. It's known for its characters, and ep1-3 had a lot of great ones.
TFA was made by someone who doesn't understand Star Wars. TLJ was made by someone who doesn't like Star Wars. TROP was made by someone who doesn't know how to make movies.
The question is whether TLJ forced too many of the decisions. TROP was a bad film, no doubt, but so many of the story cords were cut by TLJ that I doubt anyone could tell the story at that point. I agree with Baggage Claim, if JJ controlled all the films, the story would have been more coherent. Again, probably not a great product, but one that would have been passable and would have been far less destructive to the franchise. TFA may have actually made sense, given that alot of the legacy stories seemed to indicate a cyclical trajectory for the galaxy (Jedi win, become complacent, rise of the Sith, Sith win, superweapon, Sith infighting and their fall) and you could make a story with this breaking the cycle.
PERFECT.
TROP? That took me a while to get. Well done.
Allegedly, there was a longer cut of TROS which somehow the execs hadn't been shown - they'd only seen the theatrical cut. Somehow word of this had gotten back to them and they demanded KK make it available for them. They watched it and thought it was significantly better than the theatrical cut and wondered why that version hadn't been released instead... I'm guessing length was the excuse given.
@@bwill887 apparently there was a general overall arc planned for the trilogy when TFA was being made but for some reason that was allowed to go out the window when Rian insisted he be allowed total control. Why KK thought that was an acceptable price to pay for getting her choice of director onboard is beyond me.
"Resur-wreck" - Perfect term to describe movies like Star Trek (2009)/The Disney Star Wars Trilogy where old I.P.s are brought back from the dead only to be ruined by directors, execs, writers, etc. who don't have a clue about what made the I.P. great in the first place.
Sacrificing Star Wars on the altar to expose JJ was a high price to pay, but it needed to be done.
So not resurrecting but more like necromancy, resulting into lifeless husks with likeness of their living selves.
I agree with Mauler: the question of "Which of the Disney Star Wars Trilogy is the worst" has to include The Force Awakens. Because a hallmark of Star Wars is worldbuilding and imagination, and TFA "established" what the entire trilogy was going to be. I've always found it funny how people would concede that Rian Johnson didn't leave much for Abrams to work with... uh, Abrams didn't leave _anyone_ much to work with by the end of TFA.
Exactly....and l honestly thought TFA was far worse than TLJ.
In retrospect of the whole trilogy, absolutely.
At the time and on its own then it seemed like a giant corporate behemoth getting to grips with things then playing it safe.
We gave them the benefit of the doubt but they went rabid instead!
I've seen some treatments where the 'Force Awakens' is only very slightly altered and becomes not only a fascinating movie but a fantastic set-up. For example, there is clearly a thread where they want to make Han Solo into Rey's father figure. And the question of why a Stormtrooper would suddenly stop being a Stormtrooper had many of us wondering if Finn was actually force sensitive. If they had just given Rey's powers to Finn and even kept Solo's death but after Rey bonded to him (and vice versa... imagine if she was the 'daughter he never had'...), they would have really had something.
But they didn't.
@@Mereologistas usual, the what-ifs of the sequel trilogy are far more interesting than what was delivered.
Exactly. I don't want to toot my own horn but I knew after walking out of the theater from TFA that this whole trilogy was Dead on Arrival. TFA is an absolute catastrophe of world building and character setup, even if you jettison the EU TFA just does NOT make sense from a world building perspective.
Mary Poppins Leia revival, even after the actresses had passed away. Easily the biggest joke in cinema
I laughed out loud in the cinema when I saw that 😂
One of the dumbest moments in cinematic history
i fell asleep watching this film in the cinema and was convinced that scene didnt happen until the film ended and my brother was just laughing at how reeturded it was
"When you forget your cocaine on the ship"
Star trek and star wars are both shells of what existed before.
Yes. I can not expect anyone whom didn't have respect and interest in what came before (and established itself) to produce anything of value beyond the Michael Bey effect.
This was my feeling about The Rise of Skywalker: "Oh, I'm afraid the boycott will be quite operational when your episode IX arrives."
The boycott will be larger than ever when the Rey movie arrives, if it gets canceled during the Disney civil war.
THIS
JJ did not resurrect anything. He just came in on franchises that had enormous fan base(its like digging up valuable antiques, the fact that they are buried somewhere does not make them junk). Anyone would be able to "Resurrect" them, simply due brand alone. The fact that nothing of value was made under those franchises did not mean that they were dead.
Same Force Awakens made 2 billion not because JJ is some cinematographic genius, but simply because people craved some Star Wars. A vet fart with SW log on in would make 2 billion at this point.
Yes totally right. At time Force Awakens came out everyone was crying out for more Star Wars. The fans thought that Disney would do a better job than Lucas did with the prequels, as the Marvel films had been so good at that point. How could they mess it up worse? Worse than Jar Jar Binks? Then we got Rey! It was worse just in a different way. It made all that money because anyone would have gone to see it as it was Star Wars. It was bound to make bank off the fans. By the time the last film came out the numbers had halved and the downward spiral had began in earnest. The last one barely broke a Billion at the box office and in light of all the reshoots, ditching the original director etc I bet it was close to running a loss, but as usual they fiddled the figures. Bottom line is the Joker movie, on a low budget made way more money than the third Star Wars Sequel.
All Jar Jar had to do was attend a Star Wars or Star Trek convention and ask the fans what they want to see. He should have sought out the most respected influencers and signed them as creative consultants. The movies would have written themselves and been great.
@@encinobalboa he didn’t even need to do that. He could have just took elements of the Expanded Universe and adapt their own story.
@@griz312 We don't want Jar Jar putting his creative mittens on anything.
@@encinobalboa he needs to stay the F away from anything that already has an established I.P. Just speaking through hindsight.
Like the suicidal pilot on that SwissAir flight, Rian Johnson put Star Wars into a nose-dive it was impossible to recover from.
When Baggage Claim said "Somehow . . . JJ returned" I lost it.
I know right😂
Drives me nuts how they talk over her because she just comes in with the bangers and they totally miss what she said
I'm surprised anyone heard it. Because when she said it, they weren't letting her talk.
talk about proof of toxic masculinity... a lot of people who hate woke culture like to claim their aren't sexist etc and then they just completely ignore everything the woman says lol
I don't think it's premeditated or sexism. Zoom meetings are tough due to lag and not physically seeing people (at least BC and the Drinker are on-screen).
I am constantly saying, "sorry, didn't mean to interrupt" on online meetings. It's not a form of interaction people are entirely used to.
Abrams and Bad Robot were among the worse things to come along in Hollywood after 2009. Just an absolute disaster on all levels.
Accurate names though.
maybe they should rename their selves into "Even Worse Robot" after they will kill Hasbro verse and most likely butchering of "Portal" (if any of it ever gets out of development before studio heads starts rolling).
Don´t forget he also unleashed another hack with Alex Kurtzman and Secret Hideout.
Abrams was riding Spielberg from the time he was a kid, not necessarily by his own choice. He learned mostly the wrong lessons from that man, and he passed those down.
Spielberg, to Abrams, to Kurtzman. There might be a pattern I just can't notice.
Lost was good, last seasons and ending lowered its quality. Alias was good too, I missed the last episodes, I don't know how it ended...
It wasn't just the writers and directors of the original trilogy, it was also George Lucas. He was the executive producer on the last two films and also receives sole credit for the story. So while he did not write the screenplay for Empire Strikes Back or Return of the Jedi, he did come up with the overarching story for those two films. The man was the custodian of that trilogy and kept the story cohesive and on track. He did the same thing for the prequels. The sequel trilogy did not have that kind of creative mind in control from start to finish.
That oversight was supposed to be done by KK.
And to give JJ a tiny bit of credit: yes, he made a meh movie, but he set up a lot of plots and side stories that Rian Johnson should have picked up and ran with/expanded upon. So if Rian had done just that, the whole Disney Trilogy would simply have been a meh experience.
Sadly Rian, ostensibly with KK's blessing, decided to act like the moron he is and fully went with his "subverting expectations" theme that didn't even make a lick of sense in the movie he made. The result was a total mess that went nowhere.
JJ was then brought back in by KK, probably in an attempt to try to somewhat turn the tide of negativity that Rian had caused, but that didn't just result in another JJ meh movie, but a movie that was even worse, because JJ desperately tried to correct much of the destruction and chaos Rian had caused with his movie.
Lucas is the mastermind. Fact.
It’s because Lucas wrote a script for the sequels but Disney threw it in the trash. Not saying it would have been way better but it would have had a cohesion of story that the sequels didn’t have.
That's your opinion. Fact.
Lucas has never produced anything of quality unless he was reigned in by those around him. This is why movies like Attack of the Clones are so messy. And people who suddenly say Clones is a masterpiece of a movie have room temp IQ.
.... No?
Everyone with half a brain knows the sequels will never be 'loved', no matter how many decades go by. Even with the hate the prequels got its merchandise flew off the shelves regardless while every game, comic and novel related to that era only made fan support for it stronger. The Clone Wars Multimedia Project was just a brilliant time to be alive and see, for all SW fans.
Now? I checked out a toy aisle in my local store yesterday, a little over a week before Christmas, and saw everything SW related on clearance. It's not selling anymore. The magic is gone.
The prequels had flaws, but for a lot of kids they were the first Star Wars experience they got. A lot of younger millennials loved the prequels more than the OT right away. It just took a while for those that grew up with the OT to appreciate the prequels' charm. Good luck finding anyone in Gen Z that loves the sequels that way.
Not completely though. A good friend's grade schooler is obsessed with the Prequels, and The Clone Wars. Because he admires Anakin, while understanding how he was destined for his leadership qualities to become tainted by Palpitine into something inhuman.
Imagine 20 years ago, let alone 40 years ago... being told that not only was Star Wars merchandise on clearance, but rotted on shelves unwanted. The very name of Star Wars was as radioactive as plutonium...
I went into my local The Entertainer yesterday and everything Disney was reduced by 50-80%.
It's been a decade since the release of, "Star Trek Into Darkness," and I still don't know why Khan's people were placed into those photon torpedoes.
It’s been a long time, but I thought he did it to smuggle them out of Sol before he got caught. Even if I’m right it’s pretty doinky.
The plot needed them in there.
Plot needed it to happen
Khan did so in order to try and smuggle them away from Section 31.
I thought he was going to take over the big scary ship by defrosting them in the middle of a mission or something but the slightly-less-bad guys found out before it was ready. They were big scary versions of torpedoes so I assumed they were made for that ship. How he managed to get them all into torpedoes before being discovered, and how he was discovered at all I dunno. Maybe in 30 more years somebody will make an entire movie to explain it. They can call it "Khan One: A Star Trek Story".
JJ Abrams knew how to get bodies into theater seats for big box office returns. Even when the film was a steaming pile, he could fill a theater. I hope most of the audience has some awareness of his promotional tricks by now.
I think it's really a matter of that he's great with first entries when it comes to movies. After that things tend to fall off pretty rapidly. As far as Riann Johnson, his style really wasn't a great fit for Star Wars
Tbf, you could have put Uwe Boll in charge and people would've filled the theatres for Star Wars at the time.
It would be nice if all sheep were actually wolves in sheep's clothing, but we know that's not true . . . .
@@RambleOn07 Agreed!
Manipulating idiots is a talent. And yes, I am calling fans idiots because they kept on running back for more no matter how they were insulted and/or assaulted with bad content. Fans supported garbage with billions of their dollars, so they got what was comibg to them...a severely injured franchise.
Lucas gave KK his draft of 7-9 and she and Disney said no thanks. I'm curious to know what Lucas's 7-9 was.
Better than what Disney gave us, that’s for sure
I believe it was about Maul.
@@TheOriginalFishPondand his hot twi'lek apprentice Darth Talon
The last trilogy from what I’ve heard was focused more on Leia. First trilogy - The Father, 2nd - The Son and third the daughter
@@chrischreative2245 That could have been fun. The failures of the father set up the crisis. The son, the hero, opens the door for the galaxy to move out of darkness and have a new hope. And then the daughter, the politician, builds that new future. There's room for all of the characters from Luke's story to stick around in that last one, but you just shift the focus.
Granted, wouldn't want Lucas at the helm for that last one. I wasn't entirely impressed with his ability to portray politics. But then again, he's still better than JJ at it.
JJ Abrams is a courageous filmmaker - he made "Rise of Skywalker" and released it with his name attached!
I would have Alan Smitheed that movie so fast.
The biggest crime of all was not having a set plan or arc for the trilogy from the outset. Not doing that for something of this magnitude which was for Disney, day 1 of ownership, is astonishing.
Who allowed Rian Johnson to demolish all of the set up by JJ to then bring him back to try rescue it from the ashes🤯
After destroying Star Trek in 2 movies (Justin Lin did not bring more in the 3rd), I did not trust this guy anymore. The blame also to Paramount execs at that time showing the "TOS and Berman era" fans the middle finger. And now the Star Trek series are looking like his movies: Dutch angles, excess of lens flares, lack of interesting stories,...
And then KK announced him as the first director of the Disney Star Wars. I had no hope.
The history repeated itself.
I don’t know whether to be happy, sad, or resigned that we’re running out of franchises to ruin.
Didn't he treat 'LOST' just like D&D treated GOT? Instead of finishing with a flourish, he just got out asap. Do you want that person in charge of your films? What if/when he gets bored?
and waiting for Zack Snyder overbloated Rebel Moon with slowmo shots, lense flares and weird color grading...
Same type of directors. Should I add Michael Bay in the list ?
@@laurentd.4473 Why are you waiting on something you don't like? There's more to life than hating on everything you don't like - life is short - stop wasting it.
@@terrylandess6072 You're right !
Regarding what Robot Head says around the 10' mark: I don't believe for a second that the Sequels will have a "renaissance" or reappraisal in a few years time like the Prequels had. First off, the Prequels were never THAT unpopular, especially amongst younger and foreign audiences (I'm from France and they were beloved over here, and in some countries like Russia they were more popular than the original films), and even so, they had tons of wonderful material and expanded universe around them to make it all the more sweeter (video games like Battlefront and Racer, comics like Republic, novels like Shatterpoint and Medstar), not to mention the animated series that are still beloved to this day. The Sequels have had none of that; au contraire, Disney has been quick to move away from them, unlike George Lucas who through The Clone Wars made a lot of people more appreciative of what he was trying to achieve with these three films. I'm sure there is a tiny fraction of fans who were introduced to Star Wars by the Sequels, but it's in no way comparable to the formidable rebirth of the franchise that happened between 1999 and 2005, and beyond. Different movies, different times anyway.
As divisive as the prequels are, and for multiple different reasons... Even the most ardent fans agree unanimously at things that worked: Darth Maul (presence and fight scenes), Liam Neeson as Qui-Gon Jinn, Duel of the Fates theme, Samuel L Jackson's choice of lightsaber, Christopher Lee as Dooku, Ewan McGregors performance, and of course the Anakin/Obi Wan standoff on Mustafar (effects not withstanding).
Apart from that, those films pretty much get shredded on multiple levels. There is NOTHING that even comes close to being universally praised on the Di$ney Trilogy. Nothing.
I’m sure the prequels are actively improved by dubbing over the awful dialogue and wooden delivery!
All of what you regard as successful and popular never came from the Prequels, they were utter dreck, but other people managed to find gold in the dross, I loved the OG Star Wars as a kid, but my kids never saw value until the Mandalorian and Andor.
this. I keep seeing some people say the sequels will have a resurgence. for all the internet is desperately trying to convince us that the prequels were worse than battlefield earth, they had a story to tell. fun things happened because of the prequels. merchandise sold because of the prequels. aside from youtube content, what have the sequels given us? mediocre to shitty books? mediocre to shitty television? maybe two good video games?
"They keep saying that in 10 years, people will love it [ the Sequel Trilogy]."
God! I chuckled so hard at this!
It worked for the prequels, kind of. There are even stans for The Phantom Menace
@@Dhomden That's because the Prequels actually hold up to scrutiny. If you look at them objectively, they range from great to outright brilliant. Including The Phantom Menace. Is it childish? Absolutely. And that was completely intentional, in case George Lucas' "It's a film for 12 year olds" combined with Jar Jar Binks and making Anakin a literal child didn't make it blatantly obvious. As for Revenge of the Sith that's easily as good as The Empire Strikes Back. Which one is preferable depends on the person but the level of quality is the same.
@@tomnorton4277There is zero way anyone looking at the prequels 'objectively' would come to any of those conclusions. Phantom Menace is *literally* pointless. In the others we learn that Anakin is a colossal douche, anything but tragic, and that the Jedi Order is fucking creepy. Even if we fix the godawful dialogue and editing, the trilogy is just baffling. Lucas was lucky that the shows and games picked up the pieces
@@Dhomden Only an idiot with no understanding of storytelling structure would come to your conclusions. You know absolutely nothing about writing.
The Clone Wars is objectively worse than the Prequels. Anakin Skywalker's character development was completely botched by having him be Revenge of the Sith Anakin from the start instead of building up to it. Even the 2003 Clone Wars managed to get that character arc right. And Order 66 was made so blatantly obvious that there is absolutely NO chance that the Jedi wouldn't be prepared for it unless they were utterly retarded. The Prequels actually understood Dramatic Irony because they only let the AUDIENCE know what was happening, not the characters.
@@Dhomden Without The Phantom Menace, there would be no context for Palpatine's rise to power, Anakin's early life and relationship with Shmi, or how Anakin and Padme knew each other before Attack of the Clones. All of those things are extremely important to the overall story, so saying that The Phantom Menace is pointless is a retarded assertion.
Furthermore, The Clone Wars series actually caused MORE problems in the Prequels than they ever had on their own. Character assassinating Count Dooku was a major one because he was much more morally grey in the Prequels. Bringing back Darth Maul was a cool "what if" scenario but he absolutely should have been dead and might have even been the domino effect for everybody surviving wounds that are clearly fatal in Disney's dogshit Star Wars projects.
The biggest fuck up in The Clone Wars is that it made Order 66 so blatantly obvious that there's no chance the Jedi Order wouldn't have been prepared for it. Fives' death worked because everybody assumed he'd gone mad but the discovery of Sifo Dyas and Dooku's collaboration combined with Yoda's adventure on Dagobah and Moraband confirmed his story. Unless the Jedi are complete retards, they would have known Order 66 was coming due to all that evidence.
The Prequels actually understood how to use Dramatic Irony.
JJ Abrams should have never had anything to do with Star Wars, given his track record of failures. He only has himself to blame. 🎉
His film company is poison he uses to spread his influence.
I agree with Baggage Claim! I don't think JJ did a good job, but there seem to be some behind the scenes ideas that were good. Driver said on Rich Eisen that the original plan for his character was to follow the reverse Vader arc and start out more unconfident in his path and then descend even further to the Dark Side as an absolute villain. Everything about that trilogy was absolutely messed up. They had no overarching vision or cohesion and it failed so miserably. Made tons of money, but absolutely tanked the Star Wars brand for at least half a decade and there is no end in sight.
Jar Jar Abrams seems like a yes man, studios employed him because he just allowed the studios to interfere and change things. A decent director pushes back against that and sells their vision.
Also he is willing to make a movie to order. He has no artistic vision, good or bad.
He's actually worse. He's a selfish subversive out to enrich himself at the expense of others' work.
Personally I think its mostly a lack of talent. It takes real vision to begin with and working hard on the script and then hammering it out with a team who's also onboard with that vision.
Part of that talent is true leadership as well, you have to amass an army of actors to grips and prop makers genuinely wrapped up in the project who are going to go that extra mile to make it the best they can with what they have. Not to mention, these guys had a lot of everything being given an almost open book of cheques to spend on whatever they needed and somehow, they couldn't find that talent to drag it over the line. Heck it wasn't even passable!
Maybe genius, mastery of the art and media itself is just rarer than a lot of people give it credit sometimes. You sure can't buy it apparently
He also gets his projects on screen and opens to a lot of hype. The latter is because of his mystery boxes - they're essentially teasers for a movie he'll never make.
The former is because he immediately spends his budgets on long term contracts and the like. Any studio that hires him or his students has little time to cancel or reevaluate a project.
Hit the nail on the head. The word that is missing from most things today.... Vision. Nothing is more powerful than someone who believes in their vision so wholeheartedly that they are willing to risk it all to ensure this vision becomes real.... With the caveat that the best visionaries make micro adjustments and tweaks to their vision when the people around them have something valuable to add. There are many examples of this and many names for it, the one I choose is 'Art'.
I grew up in the eighties, so have seen 4-6 dozens of times and they have become part of my collective childhood. I’m still on the fence about the Prequels. I actually really enjoy a fan edit here on UA-cam that has a majority of the childish dialogue removed. Since then, only Rogue One is a movie that I’m willing to watch and (re)watch. It also feels like a Star Wars movie, full of hope for the future and sacrifice
What's the fan edit that you enjoy?
I also wanna know
@@TF80s ua-cam.com/video/pBT1qw5kNu8/v-deo.htmlsi=3vtAyH-SObYPzY5w
@@TF80s I'm betting it's the one that removes Jar Jar.
Are you implying that The Phantom Edit is on UA-cam? I have wanted to watch that for years. Apparently there is also a very good edit of The Last Jedi around, with some funny name like "Anti-Female Edition".
KK set up an all woman story group led by Kyrie Hart who, under KK's direction set up Ray, KK's self insert as the main character. From what I have heard the story group made a chart with all the characters and their traits, and moved all the traits to Ray. They came to the conclusion that Luke kept getting in the way and needed to be gotten rid of!
To this day I still am curious 'how' KK moved up the ranks if not for her husband and some other 'hidden' information some would prefer to remain private. Her track record begs this observation.
Moved all the traits to Rey? I'm assuming just the skill traits because lord knows they didn't give her any personality ones.
Writing science-fiction without science and space opera while being bad at both space and music was really not a good idea.
If only he was capable of thinking outside the mystery box.
The funny thing is that writing a new Star Wars series should've been a narrative slam dunk, such as: Han and Leia are still married, She is in politics and has spent the last 30 years trying to rebuild the Galactic Senate, but there are still elements that flourished under the Empire and want to see a return of some kind (political intrigue). Han is still in the military and runs the New Republic's flight school, training basically a galactic police force to patrol the galaxy and has to deal with a talented but reckless recruit (the Poe Dameron character).
Leia and Han had twins (this can be the Rey and Ben characters) that are force sensitive and have been training at the Jedi Temple that Luke has spent the last thirty years rebuilding on Courassant. It's not easy because the Temple is haunted by the Jedi and apprentices that were slaughtered there under Order 66 and Luke and the twins have to constantly reckon with the memory that his father/their grandfather led the slaughter. It also suffers from all the knowledge that was lost and the fully trained Jedi that have been hiding since the fall of the Old Republic are hesitant to return there to teach. This creates a blind spot where Sith agents can pose as potential students or as non-teaching staff to seduce talented apprentices to the dark side. Rey is more talented and powerful than Ben, not by much, but enough to enflame him with jealousy and make him vulnerable to seduction of the dark side. His defection kicks off the story.
Sixty(?) years ago, Palpatine learned of Anakin while he was training at the Jedi Temple and understood who he was. In between "The Phantom Menace" and "Attack of the Clones" he bribed Anakin's mother's enslaver and harvested her ovaries, in the process erased her memories of the ordeal. It took decades in a top secret facility known only to Palpatine and a handful of Sith loyalists, but Sith scientists figured out how to fertilize her eggs with Palpatine's DNA, but there were only two viable fetuses (twins, to mirror Ben and Rey) that successfully came to term, who were born just as the Empire collapsed in "Return of theJedi." The few remaining Sith apprentices that Palpatine had been secretly training raise and train the children to become the new rulers of the galaxy, communing with Palpatine's "force ghost" for guidance all the while collecting faithful remnants of the Empire and rebuilding the galactic fleet. They forced the aliens from "Attack of the Clones" to build another stormtrooper clone army for the New Order, but there are "bad batch" clones that have free will and are kept isolated (the Finn character). The seduction of Ben was a calculated ploy to distract Leia, Han, and Luke while the New Order of the Empire prepares to strike, with the Sith twins leading the way. "Finn," possessing a conscience, understands what's happening and escapes from the clone training facility to inform the New Republic what's going on before it's too late and the New Order attacks the New Republic unawares.
See? Easy.
This is what happens when you throw out everything made by others and fail. Then you start 'stealing' those ideas to use as your own hoping no one will notice. FDF
That whole part about Palpatine stealing Shmi's ovaries and erasing her memories sounds utterly stupid, man.
Maybe, but I'm just using the context of the world George Lucas built and meshing it with the framework that Abrams and Kasdan attempted to create. Think about it though, Palpatine is always jealous of his own power and everyone under him, including Vader, is disposable. Anakin was a "virgin" birth according to the Phantom Menace, so there is a logic to Shimi having an (unconscious) powerful biological relationship to the Force and Palpatine plotting to have a Plan B which is creating his own progeny (which dovetails with another Abrams plot point). Palatine's Sith twins create a powerful set of antagonists for our protagonists to set themselves against without reconning canon and doing the lame Palpatine resurrection storyline. Maybe the memory erasure is unnecessary, because the next time we see Shimi is in "Clones" she's dying from her enslavement by the Tusken Raiders, so her not telling Anakin what happened to her previously in that moment would make sense. In the end this all just an academic exercise anyway.@@MagcargoMan
One thing that I will never understand or forgive is how they didn’t complete the heroic arc of Luke, Han and Leia. I understand that they were going to be put out of the saga, but there was a simple while unforgettable way to do it. Put the boys into a terrible, deadly situation, and let their parents to sacrifice for them. Like a new version of the Death Star or a comparable menace that Luke, Leia and Han made to explode by making the Millennium Falcon to bring a nuclear weapon into it. And just before pushing the button, Leia would say Han “I love you”, to be answered “I know”. It would have been perfect bowing out. And from that moment on, the new Jedis would have fought the Empire in the name of them, and being legitimated by their parents’ sacrifice.
I had high hopes for the sequal trilogy after The Force Awakens. But yikes, my interest in anything Star Wars related died with The Last Jedi.
Force Awakens was alright/ok but after TLJ and Rise Of The Fanfiction, it went to the dogs.
Everyone who defended TFA is the main part of the problem. If you lot had called out Rey being a Mary Sue back then, maybe we wouldn’t be in such a disaster.
@@killgriffinnow I though TFA was meh, nothing terrible but nothing good either
You did? most people seemed to have the opinion that the Force Awakens was a derivative story, a retread. People were generous to it because it was a new Star Wars film, had a big budget and it had original cast members in it. My opinion is that Disney was creatively bankrupt well before they bought Lucasfilm and there was plenty of quality material out there they could have used for the films but they didn't want to pay anyone for the story and they didn't want to pay Lucas his share for merchandising of his characters.
You took the words right out of my mouth. The sequel trilogy was off to a great and promising start with the Force Awakens. But, when The Last Jedi came out, it's all downhill from there and the trilogy never recovered.
JJ's career peaked when he did the music for Night Beast.
Seriously, look that movie up 😂
Was he a composer or what?
@@user-xx6vy9ri8p
I'd say it was more adding a lot of electronic synth sounds. 😂
It’s easy to get work in Hollywood if you’re one of the chosen people.
Thought Lens Flare Boy peaked when the devs of Half-Life 2 hid a computer with the numbers from Lost on the sceen in a dark corner.
My heart sank when I heard he was going to be involved in a future Half Life project but thankfully nothing ever came of it.
To be fair, JJ nearly quit TROS and said "put it as"written and directed by Lucasfilm"" because Disney kept changing stuff
From what I heard
If he had an integrity he should have.
@@sambandah6170 Aye. We see that in many past situations or the Alan Smithee treatment. JJ ain't giving up the golden ring.
I get Baggage Claim's point, but Abrams ANNIHILATED Han Solo. There's no reason he wouldn't have done the same to Luke and Leia.
Correction; _Darth Kennedy_ destroyed Han Solo
Eh, we should keep in mind that Harrison came back under the condition that Han would be killed.
With that in mind, they could have at least had the old band back together in the cockpit of the MF, had a few interactions, you know, give us a few final moments between beloved characters. They opted not to do that. They also oddly opted to have Leia greet Rey after Han’s death as Chewy walked right by, like it was no big deal.
@@DaMaster012 , his film, his circus.
I hate TFA, but I think ROS was an even bigger sin.
It’s important to remember that prior to the release of TFA, there was still a lot of goodwill from the fans.
The trailers looked good and the film, while flawed, worked in as much as it did some bizarre and strange things but it made bank so it was deemed a success.
JJ was likely burnt out from his experience directing TFA and letting Rian direct the middle film while Hamill was happy to stand-by and let his most famous character be dumbed down and humiliated while KK was pulling the strings, was a perfect storm.
It was clear after my first viewing of TFA that the new trilogy was doomed.
Small correction here, Hamill was obviously not happy to stand by while his character got assassinated. He was baited like the fans were and when he did fight back it didn't even matter because of Ruin Johnson and Kathleen Kennedy.
They said it best in the video the TFA was an inferior copy of the 1st film in just about every way. TLJ is unwatchable but then again so are all 3 of the prequel films only fit for criminals in the state pen to watch.
@@bartsullivan4866 The prequels are not unwatchable.
While overall worse than the first trilogy, especially Episode 3 had deeper moments. And imo is better than ROTJ even.
But none of the 6 Lucas movies have nonsensical plotholes like the new trilogy.
Rey is constantly shown being driven by hate and anger, so much that she can even shoot Sith lightning and doesn´t even fight against the darkness while Luke was "training" her, yet we are told she is a hero.
We are constantly TOLD from the script itself that Kylo will redeem himself, so there is nothing to be excited for.
Speaking of Kylo they can´t even get on one page about his helmet. First he wears it, then he throws it away, then he wears it again, then he destroys it, then he glues it together, then he throws it away again.
What a incoherent mess.
Lastly, if people like you wouldn´t pretend the prequels were on par with Plan 9 from outer Space, Disney would have not attempted to "fix" Star Wars and thus giving us 3 actually unwatchable films.
Disney does what Disney does although I think you are giving the prequels a free pass when they are outright terrible. Outside of the Pixar movies when has Disney ever done a good sequel on anything? I blame Lucas himself for not having a capable writer work on the scripts. He had all the money and talent in the world to make them good and just did 1 rough draft and said lets start shooting. nothing but yes men around him and people patting him on the back telling him how great he is. People seem to think that if Lucas got control of the franchise back that he would make 3 more blockbuster films. @@gameking8809
JJ wasn't burnt out, he never intended to make anything beyond the first movie. Disney had to work to bring him back after TLJ got roasted by fans.
Hamil wasn't content to let them ruin Luke's character. He fought Johnson throughout filming and was very vocal about how much he hated the changes once the movie came out. The only thing you got right was that KK destroys everything she touches.
Wouldn’t mind if we got more Star Wars content that mirrors the tone and feel of the trench warfare scene from Solo. If Andor’s reception is anything to go by, audiences crave better writing AND a return to a grittier version of the SW universe.
I say “return” because the OT had some fairly gruesome moments to it that have been absent from Disney SW, i.e. Slicing the Tauntaun open to survive, the Wampa eating Luke’s Tauntaun after mauling him, the bloody dismemberment scene in the Cantina, Luke’s aunt and uncle being reduced to charred skeletons, etc, etc…
The Clone Wars 3d series proves you can easily make a war drama work in Star Wars.
I’ve been trying to remind anyone who will listen that JJ Abrams has been effectively sidelined since TROS. He’s not made _anything_ since TROS. He’s been shopping not one but two TV shows for streaming and after WB turned him down, the rest of Hollywood followed suit. “Duster” has scripts and is essentially finished, while Constantine has the support of Keanu Reeves, no one appears to be interested after Matrix 4.
I used to love the Prequels. Then hated them. And now after everything that has been done with the brand since Disney acquired it I've kind of come full circle. While I do think they still have their many problems and issues, I really no longer indulge in this overblown idea that they were so monstrously bad they quote: "Killed the franchise." Whether you love or hate those movies, Star Wars still continued to thrive as a worldwide, money printing phenomenon. Merchandise still was able to sell, we got dozens of pretty decent spin-off material through the Prequels whether it was the books, comics, video games, or the cartoon shows. And most importantly, they did succeed at getting new generations into the franchise. Something you cannot say the same of from the Sequels. From the outright distain to just outright apathy generated around the trilogy and most importantly, the failed merchandise which even many toy companies admitted no one wants. I mean remember when they announced the Obi-Wan show that had Ewan and Hayden coming back? I mean granted that sucked unholy balls from hell, but there was general excitement and anticipation for these characters coming back. Compared to the announcement of the Rey movie where there was just complete apathy to just a general sense of 'why'? And the people that do screech about their supposed love for the Sequels are probably no doubt the same people that screeched about their supposed love of similar garbage like Jodie Whittker's Doctor Who, modern Marvel and DC comics, or Rings of Power. Which as we have seen time and time again, never put their money where their mouth is. They'll tweet endlessly about how much they love it, but never go and spend money on them.
I remember coming out of the theater on prequel release night and stopping to look at the thoroughly disappointed faces of the people that left the cinema with me. A silent, disappointed crowd, hardly talking or showing any positive emotion.
@JanFunification And yet they probably still showed up for the next two films. And when the trilogy reached its conclusion, probably still continued to buy the toys, books, comics, and basically anything else that had 'Star Wars' slapped onto it. I'm not saying their weren't people that weren't immensely disappointed with the Prequels, I'm just saying I don't think the reaction against them was strong enough to where half the audience just walked away completely from the brand as a whole. As we've seen from the fallout of the Sequels or the Kenobi show.
@@death-king1834 Yeah, that's true. I watched the following 2 movies. But then, i watched the sequels as well, but only TLJ in the cinema.
paragraph breaks yo
Abrams may have had few cards to play, but he first tossed most of them in the nearest toilet and then played the remaining cards wrong by making a little house out of them, then sat there stupidly grinning and expecting praise for his "creativity".
Jar Jar Abrams messed with his career after he destroyed Star Wars but then again Nostalgia was part of JJs Strategy besides using Mystery Box.
He made enough money, contracts and other opportunities which allow his company to continue the damage he no longer needs to be the immediate face of.
NOT having an outline of where they were going in that trilogy was unforgivable. We have the Star Wars franchise in our hands and we are going to wing it..
_Anyone_ who rebooted the Star Wars and Star Trek franchises was going to make bank as long as they made something that wasn't overtly bad; the title did the heavy lifting at first, and JJ makes things that SEEM very good... at first glance. He's always setting things up, promising that things will make sense later, but not following through on them; so he's really good at STARTING projects, not so good at ending them. If he keeps going you start to notice that nothing is getting resolved but just clumsily ended with a half-assed explanation that isn't satisfying for how much it was built up.
The trick is to wait for a new crop of viewers. Nuff said.
There are STILL so many simps for The Force Awakens, even though it was a bad rip-off of a New Hope with a Mary Sue protagonist that destroyed the originals. Even in this comments’ section. Shameful, absolutely shameful.
There are also still prequel simps everywhere, twice as ferocious as before Disney. This is the Mouse's greatest crime
@@Dhomden Revenge Of The Sith is still better than the sequels
@@Dhomden The prequels weren’t perfect but they weren’t awful. George Lucas told the story he wanted to tell
@@Dhomden Prequels didn't destroy anything, they expanded the storyline.
What makes everything surrounding the rise of Skywalker worse is when you read the synopsis and leaked script details from Colin Trevorrow’s canceled Star Wars episode nine Duel Of Fates movie and when you read what he had planned and compare it to what we got in the rise of Skywalker the rage one feels is indescribable because what Trevorrow had planned was so much better
And yet fkng KK basically had no cohesive vision and basically doomed Star Wars as an IP and sequel trilogy to be dogshit.
@ShaneJoshua1980 "the force is female" was her vision lol
Exactly. I heard some of the details and nearly cried at what we lost.
What was in it?
Nothing good or compitent was remotely possible with Madame Ovary Kennedy straddling the helm.
With all due respect to Baggage Claim, "The Force Awakens" is an awful Star Wars film. The main baddie has a temper tantrum about 30 minutes into the film. Han Solo is depicted as some sort of deadbeat dad who is killed at the end. With this absolute 💩as the base of a trilogy, it's no surprise that it sucks. The sequel trilogy films are so terrible, it makes the prequel trilogy look great.
Love it when Robot Head and MauLer are on a video together! I also love that we are all still talking about Disney Star Wars, its a true testament to how badly those movies have failed and that will never be forgotten.
Deep down, SW fans still hope. Perhaps a legacy of the OT?
@@Valen-mh9fh I hear you, but for me personally, if it doesn't have George involved it's not Star Wars.
I can understand why they played it safe with TFA, since it was Disney's 1st attempt at the IP and I remembered having a good time and thinking to myself, yes Star Wars is back! thinking its only going to get better from here.. and man was I so wrong. So I don't really blame JJ, I just think Disney's priority was profit margins, thus they killed off all the OG characters. I really hate it that the OG characters did not even meet altogether.. and with the chance wasted, it will never ever happened again, which is just sad.
I wouldn’t say never. With the stuff that AI is doing now, people will be able to create extremely realistic movies with the original cast deep faked very soon
If their aim was profit margins, why would they kill off any of the characters
Played it safe? With TFA? Han was a failure. And died a villains death. Luke didn't appear and didn't train anyone. And Leia was a 40 year failure as a politician and a Jedi and a parent...
Safe???
@alexgillis9446 Rey is also a failure. Leia said one thing during training. " dont be afraid to be who you are." So what does Rey do? She finds out she's a palatine and lies about who she is claiming to be a Skywalker riding off stolen valor.
KK wanted to kill or destroy the OG characters, so she can re-write star wars history and claim it was her idea all along and Lucas brought it to life to start with but she perfected it with the final three.
talking about the new characters, I remember seeing the poster of TFA and thinking something in the line of: "oh, three main characters, just like the OT. Maybe, this new friends will have each one a mentor in the trio of the OT. Not the most origina way of passing the mantle but, yeah, this could work!"
I didn't watch TLJ nor RoS.
TFA ended star wars for me and my kids.
Jar Jar Abrams was exposed with The Force Awakens, much like he did with Star Trek, he simply copied and pasted story elements and concepts beat for beat. He'll make.small changes, like have Kirk die, instead of Spock. Or change the sex of the Luke character and her redeem a peer instead of her father. Not to mention all the other small changes, Giant Death Star instead.of a regular, a Darth Vader cosplayer, etc.
I don't think he's creative in the way, for example, Lucas was.
Please don’t call him Jar Jar. I think Binks deserve better than being compared to Abrams.
The first line of TFA ("This will begin to make things right") gives away JJ's intention, an intention which he has stated explicitly in interviews: namely, to make Star Wars "right" again (meaning more like the OT) after the disaster of the prequels. JJ has stated in interviews that he wanted to make a statement to the younger generation who, when they thought of Star Wars, thought of the prequels, that "no, to those of us who grew up in the 70s and 80s, Star Wars was this," and then proceed to show them an imitation of the OT. As someone who loves the OT and is not satisfied with the prequels, I understand and sympathize with JJ's intention.
Baggage Claim is right in the sense that the sequel trilogy absolutely lacked of creative vision from start to finish. If someone has an initiative to create 3 consecutive movies for the greatest sci-fi franchises in the world, they should have an ideaof an overarching story, the characters and the setting. But honestly: what else did we expect from the company that trashed the entire previous Star Qars canon, only to have it corpse looting years later after the sequel trilogy failed??? Utter F-ing shame...
The reason the rise of Skywalker is the way it is is because of the last jedi wrapping up the trilogy in the second movie.
Yes. Kylo would not have worked as the main villain, being defeated by the good guys multiple times before. Rian also inflamed the Reylo fanbase, gleefully promoting topless wideboy and hand shake memes. This was aimed at the modern, sex positive feminist part of the fanbase they wanted to chase, so they had to include that element in IX. So again he could not be the main villain because of Rian. They had to kiss and embrace at some point in the story. The audience they wanted demanded it.
"Keep him away from everything" is what they will be saying about Jordan Peele soon enough
im curious as to why you feel that way
My brain decided to just forget everything about the sequels, but i remember being glad that the whole community got together to shit on them.
A New Hope lucked out with Lucas wife as editor. She basically made it the success it is. Empire lucked out with Kershner who understood the only way forward was for the Empire to win by seeking revenge. Jedi lucked out because it brought the trilogy to an end and closed all the story lines.
The prequels failed because no one reigned in Lucas. The sequels failed because Kennedy is fucking clueless
JJ and Ruin we're the simpletons who KK found who would do her bidding!
He will forever be Jar Jar Abrams.
Keep those Mystery Boxes coming JJ. Who needs a complete story with an ending that was planned out?
All 3 directors wanted to make a statement instead of a movie. They wanted to subvert expectations.
One of the best descriptions I recall hearing is that JJ and Rian were two kids fighting over the toys in the sandbox.
Compounding the problem that neither of them is all that imaginative or original.
In my head canon, The Mandalorian only has 2 season.
In mine it doesn't exist.
@@user-xx6vy9ri8p Fair enough but I liked it.
This- two seasons that was it,
In mine, only Lucas's films exist
In mine it has 3 episodes
JJ could’ve had material to play with or cards if he didn’t choose to leave out the EU entirely
I don't believe JJ had any say in that matter, but he did have say in joining Disney.
Maulers comment about autoplay is so fucking spot on. Especially when it turns up as "continue watching?" next time you log on.
As a parent I can say with certainty that what is currently carrying Disney+ is little kids watching their favorite thing on repeat. My 2 year old watches Sleeping Beauty at least once a day, every day and on days where she doesn't have to fight her older siblings for the TV she'll try to watch all the way through 5 times or more. That's recent though, for most of this year it was Frozen. My three other children all have their favorites and a very tiny fraction of what they watch on Disney+ was made in their lifetime.
Jar Jar destroyed himself the day he fooled himself into believing he could be a filmmaker. He was never any good, never had any talent, which should've been obvious to anyone who suffered through his butchering of "Star Trek."
He is just a tracer
@@mrcliff3709 If he _only_ copied/ripped stuff off, that'd be bad enough. But with Star Trek anyway, he completely butchered the lore, history, the timeline, the characters, everything. Everything that was good about the original, that is, leaving nothing left but the vaguest, most superficial & shallow resemblance on the surface-level.
@@MrPGC137 agreed.
I remember Red Letter Media (whose snarky reviews of the PT initially had some good points but also later went overboard into nonsense, especially in their reviews of the 2nd and 3rd prequel film) were pushing HARD for JJ Abrams to take over from Lucas, whom their reviews excoriated, and I really think that because it became cool for everyone to like the RLM videos, that's why Abrams was hired. I knew that this was a horrible idea even at the time, based on his wretched Star Trek revisionist films. But it ended up being even worse, because Star Wars brought out all of Abrams's innate worst approaches and mixed them with a toxic helping of woke, and the result was a truly wretched movie. The other sequel films were apparently just as bad, but Abrams's DEI propaganda movie set the stage.
Stop coping. The sequels being shit doesn't change the fact the prequels are also shit.
If i remember correctly, they later clarified that they wanted him to direct not write the movies.
@@mousedynasty4953 Yeah, I took that as backpedalling and trying to save face once they realized what a steaming pile their JJ-pushing had foisted on the world.
RLM can be really funny, but they’ve had plenty of takes over the years that were goofy in a… different way.
Most good directors are not good writers and most good writers are not good directors. Couldn't Disney afford to hire a few good writers to write the whole trilogy first and then hire good directors to direct?
JJ original plans didn't make any sense. Kylo saying "I'll finish what you started". Dude, your grandad redemption saved the galaxy!
I think one problem Hollywood has (among many, *many* others) is that they take positive audience reaction and assume it's all to their credit.
I'm not a big fan of Star Trek, but I know it has a built-in audience and has for decades, and definitely stronger when JJ was just starting out. The same is true for Star Wars.
This changes how to evaluate the performance of a movie that's part of a series, especially for the first week or so. I remember everyone who covered for Disney's trilogy doing a victory lap for both TFA and TLJ, and all I could think was that from the start, TLJ was signalling nostalgia from the first trailer, while TLJ was going off the hype of the TLJ. In that respect, the proper way to measure a movie's success is how well subsequent movies do afterwards, as if they keep coming back, that's generally a good sign, whereas if interest withers, that likely signals something went wrong.
With that in mind, the performance of the films makes sense. TFA did well off of the hype of Star Wars (including the Prequels), and hit enough points that even if some people had complaints (I dropped out before it even released when Disney declared the EU non-canon, so I haven't watched any, and I remember most people saying at most that it was using nostalgia and shock value by killing off characters Han), it still did well enough that TLJ could piggyback on that. TLJ, a film that tried so hard to subvert audience expectations that it was inadvertently driven by them and made a bunch of ridiculous writing decisions, cut a wedge in much of the audience and ruined many people's hopes for a good payoff, and so there was much poorer performance for Solo and later ROS.
Side note for any who read this far: if any of you still just want to find a movie that feels like Star Wars, I might suggest Star Wars: Fallen Jedi by Vader Reviews here on YT. It may not have the budget of a Hollywood movie, but I can say it feels like Star Wars.
Say what you say about quality of these products, but one thing they gave us, is a boom of internet critic channels
George Lucas had the outline of the original trilogy planned before he filmed it. Heck, A New Hope is episode 4! Jar Jar and Disney had no plan for their trilogy, and it shows!
A New Hope became Episode 4. The original release does not have Episode 4 on the opening crawl, that was added later.
@6581punk Fox made Lucas drop the Episode 4 because they thought it would confuse the audience. A New Hope was always intended to be Episode 4!
@@6581punk He did plan to make a sequel. That’s why he took the gamble to take a cut in pay and just have merchandising rights. In exchange he was able to own the sequels outright. He also got extremely lucky when the merchandise made him a multi millionaire.
That's Lucas ret-conning reality. Star Wars was a remake of The Hidden Fortress. He did not have an overarching plan before it was made.
@@SunshineLoLypops Lucas took inspiration from Hidden Fortress, especially for the Droids. You act like he completely ripped it off. If he had no intention of making a sequel, he would have killed Vader. There is a clear set up for Luke to face the man who killed his father in a future movie.
Is there a full vid of this whole stream?
Good discussion! Where can I find the full video for this clip?
Whole video probably be up sunday
thanks!
MAD
Mutually assured destruction.
Threads(1984), The Divide(2012) and Aftermath(2014). The Nuclear War Trilogy. Great films and better than Disney Star Wars
💯💯👍
When it comes to Star Wars I don’t think it would have been egregious if JJ directed all 3 movies. The first one wasn’t a great film but it wasn’t a horrible one either, there could have been a chance for him to redeem himself in the future. But when what’s his name directed TLJ, it felt like a kid who just sort of came in, took all of the building blocks that the JJ was originally building up and made his own tower using tooth paste and spit wads to hold it together before fucking off and JJ was left to try and clean up the monstrosity left behind by the TLJ director into something even close to the original thing he was trying to make with only 5 minutes left until recess ends
JJ is the idiot who hid Luke out of pure fear, JJ is the guy who stopped the three classic heroes from meeting, JJ is the guy who gave us Rey Mary Sue who isn't even a character, JJ gave us the worst characters and stupid jokes .
JJ is Kathleen Kennedy's perfect minion.
Jar Jar Abrams is irredeemable he killed Han in TFA and forever missed the opportunity to have Carrie, Mark, and Harrison in even just 1 scene together.
Rian Roundhead is a marked man where I live and should never walk the streets alone at night
Yep, if there was ever “the most punchable face ever”, Ruin Johnson would be it. I’d risk a criminal record for caving in his smirking face in a heartbeat.
💯
there is this thing that use to happen in music, i always called it "an accident of poverty". it is where some starving struggling nobody band goes into some small studio and records their debut album and it is just amazing and turns them into overnight stars. then a few years later they are signed to a big label and go into some world class recording studio to record their follow up album and it just id not good, and some of it is of course the material is not as great but it also has a lot to do with that raw limited sound the first album had and of course the hunger and struggle. sometimes that cheap simple limited budget and equipment you have creates an accident of poverty and it just works.
i have always argues that the Original Trilogy had some of that in it. yes Star Wars had a much bigger budget than that but we all know now about the things Lucas wanted to do but was not able to because of limitations he had at the time, we also all know that the special editions have a lot of cringe added to them and for me the prequels are still even worse than the new films. it turns out all the things Lucas wanted to do in the prequels were the exact same things i personally did not want to see in Star Wars.
what sucked with the sequel trilogy was the first film was not good, but there was some small scene with Han and Chewie arguing that actually made me laugh and were the only scene in it that felt like Star Wars to me. even though it was stupid that senior citizen aged Han is still wearing his 20s clubbing clothes and searching for his old high school Trans Am. but that scene at the very end when Rey shows up looking very serious and holding out the saber to Luke legitimately left me excited and hopeful. i thought well we all sort of make fun of Return Of The Jedi because we know it was not as good as the first two, well maybe this time the first film is going to be the dud and the next two will be amazing. in the end i could not even get all the way through the second film and have still never watched the third one because i have literally zero interest. the prequels i HATED, the sequels i just do not even care.
but yeah i am sure we all sit around and wonder how in the hell do these people get picked to be put in charge of these films and franchises, there are a million of us fan out here that genuinely believe we could deliver a better film but would bever get the chance. i am not a writer and i have zero experience directing, but i fully believe if i were in charge of overseeing something like the new Star Wars Trilogy i would at least know what idea to run with and which ones to say no that is stupid change it. personally i was worried when they very first announced there was going to be a new trilogy and the original cast were going to be in it. Harrison is still an A lister but wants nothing to do with Star Wars and famously wanted to be killed off and i still believe he only agreed to do it if they killed him and thus they did, way to early and with no reason or meaning and it was pointless. the last i had seen Hamill at that time he was looking a bit rough and out of shape and Carrie had not aged well either and i thought it sounded like a terrible idea. then these guys pointlessly killed of two of the three, then the only one they left alive tragically passes in real life right afterwards. idiots.
Poor Baggage Claim keeps getting talked over. 😒
The other guys are allows to share their opinions
It turns out that you can tell a story or tell a Mystery Box. One or the other.
They're not mutually exclusive, but you need the box to open into something desirable.
Like a Christmas present, for example; seasons greetings bud! 😊
Big fan of Robot Head. Thanks for having him.
Listening to Adam Driver's recent comment on how different a character Ren was supposed to be, and that he wasn't supposed to be what Rian and JJ did to him in favor of the train wreck making Rey into the Rise of Mary Sue and the bestest Jedi ever and totally destroying the entire Star Wars legacy.
Baggage Claim is a great addition to this crew
6:50 or so - Ever since I found out about it, I've always been curious to visit the universe next door where David Lynch was the one who directed (I think it was) Revenge/Return of the Jedi.
I've been praying on JJ's downfall since that 2009 so-called Star Trek movie so I guess ROS was actually a blessing for me.
I actually asked my mother if she remembered the Star Wars sequel trilogy. She said no. We watched them together.
Why would u abuse ur mom that way?
All roads may lead to Jake Skywalker, but the Force Awakens was the first step on that road.
The Last Jedi and the Rise of Skywalker are terrible movies, and you could make a good argument that either of them are the worst of the sequal trilogy.
But the Force Awakens is the foundation of sand that the sequel trilogy was made on. IF they'd actually had a plan, followed it. Then I've no doubt that the sequel trilogy would have been better than what we got. Probably not a timeless classic, but maybe a passable movie trilogy.
Disclaimer: I cannot keep the new trilogy films apart by their title. I was like 90% sure that TFA was Ep. VII, but I seriously had to check IMDB while this video was playing to see which one was Ep. VIII and which one was IX, in order to even be able to follow the discussion properly.
And to date, Ep. IX (umm, The Rise of Skywalker) is the only one of the 9 main-line films I only saw once, and that I don't actually own on home media. Yes, that means I did actually get TFA and TLJ on DVD, but I just couldn't be bothered anymore with the last one.
And all that's coming from someone who attributes his life-long love of cinema to seeing the first film on the big screen when it was originally released in 1977...
I can't get over how much JJ Abrams looks like Mattia binnoto in that picture. And it's funny considering how Mattia is responsible for Ferrari crashing and burning and JJ is for Star wars.
Luke Skywalker was a trans black paraplegic vegan.
I did not watch Rise of Skywalker and I'm not inclined to watch it ever, even though I watched all previous movies. That's how weak that trilogy is.
Rise Of Skywalker was awful.
You're not missing out. There's nothing good about that movie.
@@dontshootmex5588 Terrible film
I watched TFA and Rogue One then stopped. I can't even remember any of the plot lines for TFA, that's how good they are. I do contemplate watching the other two, but why waste my time?
I still remember before ROS trailer came out, I was still hopeful for the last movie. TLJ was a mess of a movie, yet the were plot points I wanted to see followed up:
Finn converting stormtroopers to the cause (something that should have been left in from the deleted scenes, but still has potential as a story bit for him); why the galaxy didn't give aid (could have been as simple as it was literally the next day after TFA and planets needed time to organize); Leia actually training Rey and shows her lack in discipline, warning what that could lead to.
Yes, TLJ had very horrendous plot elements attach to these story points, but they should have still carried foward with aspects of it. Early script leaks where hopeful to this, but when that trailer finally dropped for ROS... we knew there was no saving this trilogy with that choice, immediately...
JJs biggest problem was taking the job in the first place. Baggage Claim nailed it. JJ was also instructed to make a copy of ep 4 with a strong female character as well. Given all that he made a decent movie. In TROS he was totally effed from the beginning.
A better discussion might be is working with certain studios the career killer? They force creative decisions on you and then you get left holding the bag in a lot of cases.
Ruin Johnson
The new ones made me enjoy the prequels so much more. That's the only benefit they had for me. And I legit had a close female friend who was brainwashed into liking the new ones and she made me go see Rise of Skywalker in 4D at the time. Tried to explain to her why I thought all 3 of the movies were bad but she never really listened to me tbh. And even funnier is that she looks quite a lot like Sydney Watson and if I knew my old friend, she would probably hate her guts which is even funnier as I would rather be mates with Sydney now lol.
I remember being totally confused by the TLJ trailer and what Luke says. Then I was done when Luke throws the lightsaber. As a late 70’s and 80’s kid, I’ve never been so angry walking out of a theatre. That was NOT Luke Skywalker.
TLJ, the SW film when KK killed off Luke Skywalker. That's how I remember it.
I went to see it in the cinema because someone invited me to a UK preview for free. After TFA, that would have been the only way to go and see another Disney SW.
When TROS came out, I turned down another preview offer.
Ah yes, Mr. Mystery box with no payoff himself. JJ and his buddy RJ completely destroyed the sequel trilogy. I'll never understand it, Disney had decades of EU stories already written for them which they could have adapted to the big screen (Thrawn trilogy, Luke's New Jedi Order). But no, they put these two clowns in charge of the trilogy and we all got to watch their pissing contest as they just made sh@t up as they went. Colossal failure on Disney's part.
Exactly. The EU is a goldmine
The Yuuzhan Vong War storyline would’ve have an awesome basis as the ST.
@@chasehedges6775Yes it would have! Would even work with the actors' age too.
@@stevequincy388💯💯