Owen Strachan on Kinism
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- Опубліковано 16 жов 2024
- This is a compilation of Owen Strachan answering questions and talking about christian nationalism and kinism.
Full video: www.youtube.co... (taken down...)
#religion #stephenwolfe #g3 #christian #CN #Christiannationalism
I’m disappointed by this video. I’ve read one of Owen Strachan’s books and listened to several of his podcasts - and have been edified by them. For what it’s worth I am a layman, a credobaptist who is mostly historically premil. I think Strachan is being melodramatic here and is misrepresenting Stephen Wolfe. Wolfe certainly does not place any ethnicity or race above any other and in Wolfe’d book he speaks positively of intermarriage. Here is a three sentence quote from Chapter 3 “Loving Your Nation: The Nation and Nationalism” of Wolfe”s book:
"Blood relations matter for your ethnicity, because your kin have belonged to this people on this land-to this nation in this place-and so they bind you to that people and place, creating a common volksgeist. We should not, however, disregard the work of intermarriage over time in creating bonds of affection, as Aristotle argues. Out of marriage form various brotherhoods and tribes and shared or public pastimes.”
That quote followed a reference by Wolfe to Jeremiah 48.
Also, Strachan seems to be saying he would debate but won’t platform??
And I’ve seen Owen’s X messages on this topic. They are like this video, melodramatic and misrepresenting.
I’m disappointed.
Why won't Owen debate A.D.Robles?
Thanks for actually quoting Wolfe. I haven't read his book and in all the reactions I've seen this is the first with an actual quoted situation.
You’d be even more disappointed when you find out the “He Gets Us” campaign funders are the ones pushing the Anti-CN message … likely funding G3…
This is exactly why our country is where it is. The Church has lost it saltiness. This guy is working and doing a lot of damage…
Exactly. Stirring up divisions and controversies that don't even exist. What a weasle
"there's no biblical duty to preserve your ethnicity."
just a Q Owen, where's the biblical duty to preserve democracy, free speech, and religious liberty?
In his other talk that was supposed to be about God's Sovereignty, he shoehorned in the statement about "white American Church", that God only loves those Christians and that statement right there is woke as could be as Scripture has no such categories as "white/black church" Those are obviously woke categories and are a biblical contradiction. But he's the PhD.
There is none. But where is he saying so?
The duty to preserve ethnicity exists only with Israel, so that includes those Christianized elements of ethnicity included in our own lives, since we're Israel now; those elements may have arisen from past practices specific to geographic locale (diet, non-sinful entertainment, etc.) and "baptized" parts of a geographic peoples' past kept after they were Christianized, but specifically non-Christian practices (being not of God) should not be kept of course. As such, I do not know what the video's speaker is talking about re: ethnicity.
As for democracy (in the form of a Republic), the Church Fathers included it as an acceptable Christian government along juridical and autocratic monarchial forms. It was part of the form of government at the time of Christ, even serving as the elector of the Imperial throne, which helped prevent massive succession crises, at least compared to inherited autocratic monarchies or even inherited constitutional monarchies. One can interpret the lack of specific condemnation during the existence of the post-Pentecostal Apostolic Society in Jerusalem, before the Apostles finished writing their contributions to the New Testament material and left to spread the Gospel. Your mileage may vary, though, as you may only hold that what is solely, specifically stated in the Bible (rather than passed over) can be valid; in this case, you're left with either a Theonomic Monarchy or Kritarchy.
@@ourdictatorshipthe church fathers are not a unified voice. Also your point about Israel is a huge stretch.
This whole interview is calculated damage control for Owen and G3.
Ironic Owen has a distorted view of the Trinity and yet he declares Wolfe as "unsound".
It is...and it's all just duck and dodge words.
Owen is a good brother in the Lord and is 100% correct in his condemnation of kinism. However, he is absolutely destroying his credibility by his refusal to privately to sit down with the CN guys to make sure
They are not misunderstanding each other. The same goes for Josh Buice/ Scott Aniol as well.
It is beyond shameful that this is even happening.
G3 has used Scripture to make their case publicly against CN, the same one touted by Harris, Robles, Wolfe, and Webbon.
No one has been misrepresented.
True, condemning monism is 100% correct; it’s just not a widely held belief in the Church and he’s arguing against an ideology which almost nobody holds and most everyone has never heard of.
So you won't "platform" them, but you will debate them? 🤔 This is why he is called sneaky, he double talks.
Back stabbing, posturing and creating division. Poser.
Yeah, he makes no sense. He'll platform apostates and unbelievers but not someone he called a Christian brother and a deep thinker.
Here we go with the bogus “woke” terminology. It’s not factual. It’s not biblical. It’s just name-calling without substance.
So is James White platforming muslims when he debates them? And they would be happy to platform you all.
They sound just like TGC during the whole Woke thing.
Political word salad. Owen: I agree, but I disagree. I’ll debate, but not platform. I’ll generalize, but not name call. I read what they say, but I don’t pay attention. They’re brothers, but some seem unconverted.
People appreciate straight talk.
The interviewer threw softball questions that appeared more controversial than they were.
It's a kind of double mindedness that's unstable.
Well said brother. You put my thoughts into words. Exactly why I can't stand listening to this guy, and many of the middle-ground, squishy "pastors" we hear out there today who would rather virtue signal than stand on the truth, and end up coming across like walking, talking contradictions.
I would encourage anyone not familiar with Stephen Wolfe's book to get a copy and not listen to Owen's misinformed interpretation of it.
So get a book where Wolfe says he won't exegete a passage to make his case? No, thanks
@chrisland4023 He applies biblical principles, it's not a commentary on the text. I guess you don't read much? It's this kind of thinking that reinforces ignorance.
@c.m.granger6870 I am a little over halfway through, and the way he has been misrepresented is shameful.
I have the book. It is awful and sophomoric, and worse uses next to no Scripture in its defense.
@gunnartesdahl9347 He's addressed why he isn't using Scripture, it's a polemic work based on Biblical principles. It's astonishing any Christian would object to governing their country by biblical principles. I guess you prefer global secular multiculturalism? How's that going for you? Drag Queen story hours and enforced gender affirmation by parents are preferrable?
The Reformers and Puritans were Christian Nationalists. I hope you'll be consistent in disavowing them.
And to say Wolfe's book is "sophmoric" is to expose that you haven't read it. Even Owen has to confess that Wolfe is a deep thinker. I guess you're smarter than Owen.
No Owen is not another Russell Moore, but yes in this matter he is engaging in Russell Moore-style performance art, and he deserves to be roundly rebuked for it as is taking place in this comment thread.
That's why i added my voice to this exchange in the thread. there's some good dialogue happening.
Please! Owen has been mudslinging very badly
If you are going to name names publically and your opposition publically says you are misunderstanding their views to the degree of slander to then cut the dialogue claiming there's no biblical standing to platform or debate is pretty weak.
100%
This is cringy and seems so scripted. Like all of it. Also Owen is quite ridiculous. Nothing he says makes sense, he talks out of both sides of his mouth.
“Very strange to be on the side of my theological tradition but also opposed by most of the people today who claim that tradition.” -said someone
Paul refuted Peter to his face. I think more communication and clarification would be good for the understanding of the Church. I've heard both sides claiming to be getting their ideas from the Scriptures.
This last 4 min, Owens last answer about meeting with Wolfe. Wow! What a snake he is.
I've loved Owen, by-and-large, but lately... His comments about CN were unfortunate, but it seems he's getting a little better at hearing them. I also think his characterization of Postmills as 'trusting Christ is not enough, we need something else' was also a complete misreading of the position. Even I know that.
More importantly... Is that guy wearing a suit jacket over the top of a hoodie? What is the world coming to!
He's 'fly' 😂
Shutting down conversation is exacrly what they are doing...
I don't agree with everything Owen says and the way he goes about it (sometimes he's a bit glib for my taste), but I'm a little put off by the personal attacks against him. I get the point, people think he's misrepresenting Stephen Wolfe, but is everything he saying completely off? And if CN is so sound, how come most of the comments is about the way Owen is going about it but not addressing the Biblical problems with this CN movement? To me, going after Owen and G3 to make them akin to Big Eva is just as low a blow as what Owen and G3 are accused of. It's kinda like, "They said it first, therefore we're going to say it the same way." As a believer, I search the scriptures to see if something is true (Acts 17:11) because God's Word is supernatural, sanctifying, and sufficient (2 Timothy 3:16-17, John 17:17); I think the problem for me isn't all the Owen and G3 said this, that, or the other, my problem is I have Christians advocating for Christian nations with little or no specific scriptures.
(And Stephen Wolfe blatantly defends not using scripture to talk about Christian nationalism. So my question is this: how can believers sign off on something that they say is Biblically mandated but the person they're defending gives me no Biblical foundation for it. Shouldn't alarm bells go off when this happens?)
I don't think they are saying that people who are not advocating what they are advocating are in biblical error. But I would agree along with the CN people that people who are advocating secularism as the highest good in a premillennial time, people who are saying that the way the United States has done things after 1962 is spiritually proper and the way things were done before 1962 was spiritually improper, are in actual spiritual error. We should not get our theology about politics and government from the demonic American Civil Liberties Union.
Well said.
I think it is feminine to use a respectable pastor’s wife to defend your image. What is the purpose of her being there if this is about CN and Owen’s response to it? I would feel so out of place if I was her.
Exactly, it's like G3 is moving things forward so women can feel a part of it too. Buice's article on the G3 website goes into great detail about how we need to have women be teaching each other privately while denouncing "public" teaching for women, but what they are doing IS public teaching with Susan Heck as a headliner. No men are allowed so that makes it not public all of the sudden? Contradiction and shell game playing.
Nothing wrong about Christians grappling with Protestant political theology. Very cowardly of you not to invite Stephen Wolfe to have discussions.
Stephen Wolfe doesn't use Scripture and has said he doesn't have to in order to justify his position.
Why would he be invited to a biblical discussion of any kind?
Are the presentations of James Lindsey grounded in scripture?
Owen has shown himself to be disqualified by his inability to discern the truth on this topic.
How so? That kind of statement requires evidence.
@@lauramckinney9896 how long do you platform a speaker who lies about his opponent's views of the topic of his speech?
@philipmurray9796 I'm asking for evidence that he isn't discerning truth.
I've followed the debate closely and have seen Owen repeatedly use Scripture to refute the aspects of CN he deems problematic and he's shown grace in the areas that need further discussion.
So what exactly are you referring to?
@@lauramckinney9896 Owen has painted Christian Nationalism as a white racist movement. That's simply not true.
So we should reach out to and challenge obvious heretics, but not obvious brothers? The way Owen & Co. are acting is like Matthew 18, but with the one under church discipline making the effort to meet.
I'd suggest nationalism in religion tends to indicate the desperation within the faith, it will end up doing the faith a disservice by ostracising the moderates of the faith and leaving only the hard core types, this further will snow ball the the loss of demographic that faith needs to survive in the longer term, it's a short sighted approach that may give a sugar hit to those that identify with the nationalism but longer term it's a poor strategy.
Wait when did the CNs say interracial marraige is prohibited!?!?!?!?w
They didn't, of course.
No they didn’t
Peak 2023: “I’m like Gandalf!” OS
That was the stupidest thing to say. He is tooting his own horn on how vigorous he is. Silly.
There is no biblical mandate to preserve your ethnicity, and there is also no biblical mandate to keep a constitutional republic. You cant use the bible to dismiss someone's argument when your own arguments are not biblically based but culturally and traditionally based
So it's OK for Jews to not protect their country or culture? Or Africans? Just want to make sure I understand you here.
Maybe I'm missing something, but can someone please show me who these people are that supposedly preach and teach that the United States should remain predominantly white? All I hear them say is that a nation is kept strong and united by agreed upon customs, ethics, and traditions rooted in a biblical worldview.
These are highlights?!😮😬
First few sentences out of Strachan's mouth was a lesson in STRAW MANNING. Owen want from a promisse in Christian circles to being obviously just out of depth having to resort to silly arguments, because in the ONline world one has to be right at all time. The online world threw him into a undeserved spotlight, it's downhill from here.
Greek Orthodox here (I'm a proud, dirty Scots-Irish; our Churches don't ban other ethnicities as commonly thought). It is correct - we believe binding by the 1872 Council of Constantinople - that no race or ethnicity should be considered **ontologically** higher than another. We all came from Patriarch St. Adam the First-Formed 7532 years ago, and from Patriarch St. Noah, his three sons and their wives, according to Scripture. Thus, our differences do not exceed this very small period on this very young Earth. The Lord did not say "Thou shalt not be black." The Lord **did** command Israel to not marry outside of Israel, but as written in Esther and is readily apparent today by going to your nearest Church, Israel can be joined; so if you marry inside Israel, you marry inside your formal ethnicity.
It is mentioned that Kinism is a response to Wokeness, but it isn't; it's older even than Wokeness' first iteration in the early 90s. This idea has been around (predominately in Independent Calvinist Baptist circles along with some PCA/OCP) since the 70s-80s, seemingly from the Rushdoony crowd. The people I've personally known from that movement are always in the Calvinist side of the movement now known as Christian Nationalism, namely Theonomists, though it is from nothing within Theonomy internally. The emergence of Left-race realism from "Standpoint Epistemology" and from the overflow into the even more incapable hands of the general populace from its origin in the academic world has revived race realism a bit, but as far as I know the white hood folks are still sewing only a few hundred Klan uniforms a year across the whole country and the only people excited about the neo-Nazi movement are Ukranian hyper-nationalist Banderites taking refuge mainly in NYC. In other words, my guess is that the Kinism blowback within the CN movement is likely coming from the exact same people I knew 10-15 years ago.
We have plenty of worldly ethnicities and races inside our Communion from Ethiopian to Aleutian Alaskan; different rites, languages and practices are followed in accordance to the predominant geography, worldly ethnography and history present in each Church, but anyone can join any Church available to them, none are better than the others, and intermarriage is perfectly acceptable, as the husband's practices have been the standard for each family to follow when spousal disciplines clash (such as Lenten practices in my own family).
If you don't want to marry someone from a certain race because of that race, it should be because everyone in that race happens to be following Ba'al or something like that, but we aren't in the Ancient Near East and since I don't think I know anyone who is contemplating marrying someone from the North Sentinel Island or something. If race prevents a Christian man and woman who are otherwise compatible, happy, and most of all, mutually dedicated to the idea of partaking this Sacrament with each other and having children they will raise in the Church, then there's a larger problem arising from a non-Christian or anti-Christian hangover in one or both of the couple. If they are worried that they'll obliterate at least one, if not both, instances of (Christianized) particular background, then they aren't doing marriage correctly, or else they are worried about some aspect of ethnic culture that is worldly and, therefore, in need of oblivion anyway, as all the rest that isn't from God. Ethnic preservation is fine, in other words, so long as that which is preserved is preserved in Christ.
I know Protestants differ from us Orthodox, but there are some confusions both within Kinism as a system and with the answer to it as presented in this video that are coming from man-made ideas, like the idea of ontological differences-in-kind in races that come from false Darwinianism and Enlightenment goo-to-you beliefs of the multiorigin of the human race from dumb animals, people-are-averages thinking from IQ tests, and other such pointing toward instances of actual incompatibilities in situations that always seem to arise from worldly contexts.
Why did the Orthodox Churches take about 1200 years or so to have another attempt to get together and even then it fell well short? (I know why the Russians didn't show up but I'm not clear about the others)
I do think we need to appreciate the direct questions on this topic and what seemed to be direct answers.
Rare these days.
Unfortunately it is having to be done during a conference on one of the most glorious subjects the Sovereignty of God
Did this dude just compare himself to gandalf?
If Kinism were the overarching problem he claims it is AND he properly identified those that actually espose Kinism (such as NOT Webbon or Wolfe), he might have a point. Those that are prominent in CN particularly disavow those beliefs uet he persists on falsely smearing other brothers.
His actions and lies are an embarrassment to himself in particular and G3 in general.
He is not persecuted; he is just grandstanding for his new book 😢
God bless you Owen
Own doesn’t believe they are believers, or brothers. I think this is an example of women getting in the middle of a fight that men need to have in a masculine way, not with a mom in the middle. Owen doesn’t use memes but he is still being nasty. This is not how everything started. This is how big Eva starts. We listen to those that speak “nice” but there is deception in their words.
You’re misrepresenting his words with your first sentence, see 17:20
He is a coward…
Owen is being Dishonest here. super disappointing.
Real question, how is he being dishonest?
It is dishonest to make such an assertion without refuting or substantiation
How so? If you call him dishonest, you need to back it up.
I’ve got no skin in this game. How’s he being dishonest?
@@Mrguy-ds9lrHe's being dishonest by misrepresenting Christian Nationalism and implying it's Kinist, which it isn't. He also doesn't understand Wolfe's book, clearly, and he's been corrected about this but continues to repeat strawmen.
@20:27 Very fair and it’s out of conviction. No one can force him to change it or do as they see fit.
I agree with most of what Owen has said. Never heard of any of these people until today.
Gain more wisdom
Next time you get to ask this question on blasphemy, you should ask instead "which blasphemy laws do you prefer?" since we already have them in effect today...and they are in full force. I could prove it in this comment but you wouldn't see it lol
Erin is mistaken on this.
She was inadvertently calling out Owen to his face, also Woodard, jolly and the rest of the g3 gang….
Amen brother Owen! We stand on the precious word of God the foundation for all Worldview of a Christian!
The Reformers and Puritans were Christian Nationalists. Guess you stand against them too?
He is slandering other brothers
We shouldn't stand for that
16:30 - amen brother!!
Love this! Totally agree with Erin Coates❤
Sounds like Owen isn’t very well read nor is he a scholar. Seems as though Wolfe's arguments went right over his head.
It's crazy how much hate Owen is getting in the comments, with no regards or attempt to understand his points. Rather just taking whatever he said to attack him without taking or even attempting to understand what he actually just said. Erin's got it spot on; "attacking people instead of attacking points".
Owen is the one who is doing what you describe - you can accuse someone of doing what he first did while trying to excuse his actions
The irony in your comments is astonishing since Owen is the one doing everything you're admonishing against here. That's what's really crazy.
@@c.m.granger6870 In this clip he didn't attack people, and by his own admission he made paraphrases. He tried to stay as amicable as possible while talking about CN and the surrounding. People in the comments accuse him personally rather than his points, while failing to understand the reasoning for why he won't go ahead and do a public debate/talk on the podcast. Another youtuber that's against CN pointed out the same thing that Erin did in the video, that is that one side seems to attack the individuals more than the argument, so with that in mind is it surprising someone won't want to platform with others?
Just food for thought.
Both sides can be a lot more gracious with how they deal with each other but from a bystander position (where I searched both sides to see how they come to conclusions of their arguments) I think it's fair to say that CN side has been a lot more aggressive and divisive.
@cosstefan7682 He's implying Kinism, and specifically some kind of white supremacy kinism, lurks in the shadow of CN. However, CNs repudiates kinism. Yet, Owen continues to use smear tactics a la Russell Moore to implicate otherwise.
He has no "argument" because he argues against a position CN doesn't include. And perhaps he's being "attacked" because of this.
What Christian would oppose being governed by biblical principles rather than global secular multiculturalism? Weird.
According to this view, God is more pleased with open idolatry than laws that would outlaw false religions.
This guy is shameful…
This panel is already off just by having a woman on it.
Quit the LARPing. You seek to misrepresent the true Christian. Obviously.
He is as nuanced and careful as he can. The negative comments here are so off base and unfair that their biased is undeniable.
Good for Owen, this conversation is not going away.
The only sad thing is that CN is now being appropiated by types like Wolf, when it's fundamental principle should be embraced by Christians worldwide. Should a Christian in Zambia not seek the best for his country, which is Christ and freedom?
I already see thay I'll have comments from the same haters with the same tactics. I don't care. It is pretty obvious what's going on here.
why is there a woman teaching men? This is already off...
Shamefull...
It's a panel discussion, not the pulpit ministry of the church.
So thankful for this dear brother in Christ!!!
For what, for lying about his brothers?
Owen is a beta
What Owen has said here rings true for me. No bells went off based on my current understanding of the Scriptures. I appreciate his composure amidst the seemingly unfounded criticisms.
The criticisms aren't unfounded, unless you're ignorant of what's being discussed and misrepresented.
@@c.m.granger6870 Can you be specific about exactly what he said that I should take issue with? I’d like to try to evaluate your specific criticism of his specific comment with Scripture.
@jeffbither4692 He's misunderstanding Wolfe's use of the terms "nation" and "ethnicity", he's also implying there's an innate element of white supremacy kinism in Christian Nationalism. This is false, it's simply a smear and since he's been corrected the only conclusion to be made is he's grandstanding.
The emphasis on Wolfe's supposed kinist beliefs are slanderous. The lies are despicable.
@@c.m.granger6870 Thank you. I will investigate further in my personal study.