Faxon Q&A #4: Chamber types, heat dissipation, headspace and more!
Вставка
- Опубліковано 29 сер 2024
- Part 4 of ongoing our barrel discussions with Faxon. In this one we discuss chamber types, heat dissipation, headspace and quite a bit more as well.
00:41
What’s the difference with chamber cuts? 223, 556 NATO, match, Wylde, etc.
What are all these things and are they relevant and why?
06:37
Commentary: For most real world and practical applications, match grade and tight chambers aren’t worth the trouble.
08:51
Discussion about what tight versus loose chamber cuts actually even mean in terms of dimensions.
Radial and dimension differences between .223 and 5.56 NATO.
10:44
What does it take to get to “subMOA”?
12:53
The gun design itself is important when attempting to get to “subMOA”. Some designs lend themselves towards accuracy more than others.
18:38
What is the difference between a true match and a “subMOA” barrel?
21:16
The definition of what a “match” is has changed over time and therefore the requirements for what you need to shoot a match have changed as well.
25:00
What is the difference between lapping and honing?
30:25
What is headspace and how is it measured?
40:04
Some guns have adjustable headspace.
What can happen when headspace is outside of safe boundaries?
42:41
What can be done to mitigate headspace problems?
45:00
Thermal dissipation - weight versus function?
Pencil barrels aren’t intended for sustained high ROF, but that wasn’t the goal.
Barrels designed for sustained rates of fire are heavier & thicker - it’s all a compromise.
49:14
The BAR & the Chauchat had overheating issues because of barrel design.
The M16 was not designed to be a SAW.
51:00
The full auto switch on an M16 can’t be used as a panic button which then can result in overheat and total failure. This doesn’t mean we shouldn’t have full auto, but it has a specific purpose.
52:59
Fitting extensions to receivers and what is the accuracy effect in doing so?
55:28
The AR15’s locking recesses are part of the barrel assembly, not the upper receiver. This is different than many other designs.
InRangeTV is entirely Patreon supported!
/ inrangetv
InRangeTV T-shirts here!
shop.bbtv.com/...
This type of Q&A makes me want to buy from faxon and when the time comes maybe see what can be done for my own projects through them. After all a manufacturer who willing put themselves out there and talk about things is one i'm willing to trust more over one who doesn't.
John J yeah, they've already earned some of my money with one of their 14.5" pinned barrels and will probably be forcing me to spend more money soon. Haha my wallet might be sad but I'll be happy at the range.
We are honored. Thank you!
RonJohn63 it's excellent marketing. It's confidence inspiring to see how well he knows his stuff. As such I want a faxon gun. I'm in the marketing field and this is a refreshing change of pace to just see someone sharing knowledge and giving value to the community.
RonJohn63
Yes, there are several companies that make excellent barrels but I would rather support the one that educates me to make the best decision.
Great series of videos, too bad it wasn't five years sooner! I had to buy books and wade through the internet to learn most of what is covered here. The inside knowledge from the manufacturing sense, and the confirmation of what I thought to be the truth in most cases is well worth my Patreon contribution. Only way to cut through the internet BS. Again, thanks to Faxon for providing the information.
Bought an 18" .223 Wylde because of these videos.
This has been a fascinating series. Please keep it up. I have learned so much from this series and the WWSD series. Great work guys.
27:30 The nod of a man who has no idea what was just said... Love you guys, keep up the good work!
I have learned so much from this series. Thanks, guys!
Thanks for watching!
Ian addresses a very important point at 8:54. All of these different chambers relate to the leade and the throat only. Case diameter and headspace measurements are identical for .233 and 5.56.
I got very confused last week about a proper GO gauge dimension to the datum point on the shoulder. Some internet experts (oxymoron intended) kept insisting that 1.4646” was the proper dimension for 5.56. I finally found a Forster “NATO” headspace gauge with that dimension, but the Q&A on Brownell’s was confusing to say the least. I called Forster and learned that it is a special order item to meet a COLT specification. Not SAAMI, not NATO, but Colt. 1.4636” is the correct headspace dimension for a GO gauge for either cartridge. Now the NO GO gauge dimension is a different story, but I’m going to stick with SAAMI specs for .223.
I think that Karl misspeaks at 39:58. The .223 Remington NO GO and Field headspace gauges have shorter headspace dimensions than their 5.56 NATO counterparts. The guy from Faxon said exactly that just moments earlier. IOW a .223 Field gauge will identify excessive headspace sooner than a 5.56 Field gauge.
We need more of these
I really appreciate Faxon for being a part of this. If I ever build a gun, it'll be their barrel.
Thank you!
I will also be buying a barrel from these guys very professional and knowledgable they seem to really care about the products they put out. Only thing is I want a 12 or 13in 6.5 Grendel and all I can find it in is stainless wish I could find it in stainless nitride or just nitride finish in 4150 in a faxon barrel
Not gonna lie, I'd be really curious to see Karl, who's a dang good shot, attempt to clean a CMP course of fire from years past.
Something that I think would be interesting would be a muzzle to butt overview of all the AR components, purpose and function of each part, how it interacts with other components and variations available of each component and what their impact on the gun is. Thanks!
This series is a must for AR Builders, New or "Experienced".... absolutely wonderful content. Thanks Again guys
I just watched all four videos, I love the slow progression of quality in AV throughout the series.
"Solid mating between the barrel nut and the flange"...easy now lads.
I was wondering why my pants felt extra tight.
Faxon you just earned a new customer that will surely return.
Due to these videos faxon has become my soul source for barrels in the future(fir the most part). I haven't seen another company have a sit down and really explain stuff. And dispel the voodoo magic that surrounds sartain things. So thank you for making these videos.
I was pointed to this video from the AR15 subreddit. This video is gold.
Awesome content guys. It's always a pleasure to investigate the geekier details and learn a few new things. Really enjoy the Q&A's. Any chance of another HMG StG44 Q&A in the works?
Yes.
Good timing! I'm sitting here in Hamilton, Ontario with not much to do for a few hours before I head back to the heat and sun.
Love these Q&As, keep them coming!
Great video. A lot explained, many things debunk. Thanks guys!!!
i always learn something on this channel. thanks for spreading the knowledge. great job guys!
Hey guys, love the videos.
I'd like to know more about progressive twists and tapered bores please!
Excellent content guys, really nice to hear some signal through all the noise out there. Thank you!
Excellent firearms related discussion! Thank you!
when I can buy a 450 bolt action dollar rifle, a 350 dollar scope, and use commercial ammo, and get 1.5 moa without any fuss, we're living in a great time for rifles. No handloading, hell not even true match ammo, no aftermarket upgrade to the rifle. It's awesome.
This was an excellent series!! Make more please!!
if this pistol thing is going towards a "what would browning do series" I'd advise dawning fireproof clothing before publishing a vid
inb4 "not mah gov'mn't model!"
@@ChoChan776 Muh two world wars!
Thank you to all, your time, energy, and teachings are greatly appreciated.
Any chance for more of these type of videos (pretty please)? I loved all four of these videos and learned so much, didn’t realize how old they are and can’t find more like this. Other manufacturers (ammo, BCGs, FCGs, etc.) - not product reviews, but actual engineering and manufacturing insight - would be so appreciated. Quintessential InRange/Forgotten Weapons
The best takeaway from this (in the rifle I'm current assembling) is to quit agonizing over the tiny things. Faxon has my vote (and more importantly, my money) because they've taken the time to explain that the important part is quality manufacturing and everything else is mostly marketing.
Love these Faxon videos!!
Excellent video guys.. More of these please..
How dare you suggest that my precious 91/30 is anything but the very best sniper rifle every made by man?! I have my nylon ushanka and my surplus great coat all ready for the inevitable end, and you hurt my feelings like that!?
Unsubbed.
Being a visual learner there are many aspects of these discussions, great discussions btw, that could be presented in an easier to understand way. Perhaps even just pull up a picture of some of these components and point to different parts to accompany the word-splosions. Excellent content as always. Thank you.
Extremely interesting video....keep it up.
My M16A2 in Basic Training had about 137,000 rounds through it when issues to me; one of the armorer-qualified Drill Sergeants rebuilt it after my initial-issue examination revealed issues. One of the things he did was replace the barrel, as it was worn out of headspace. (At 137,000 rounds, this was not the first time this rifle had been rebuilt!)
Any company willing to take this kind of time to educate consumers deserves serious consideration from anyone in the market for an AR15 or respective parts.
I do agree, I have 3 faxon barrels and I will say, I cannot achieve sub moa, but between 1: to 1 1/2" very consistent at 100 yards! They clean really nice with Lucas formula. My 6.5 CM faxon barrel the best I got @ 400 yards was .915"
I did not think to get all of my old mill surp guns head space checked now I am going to do that, they all go bang well but this is a good reminder
nathancombs11 a lot of old surplus rifle (even not so old ones) basically used a NoGo and Field gauge in place of a Go and NoGo. Long story short, their fine. I recommend getting them checked my a gunsmith, but that's up to you. However, I would strongly recommend AGAINST reloading brass fired from these rifle unless checked. Fire it once and forget about it, unless you know the chamber is good. And of course always look for signs of a loose chamber. Brass with develop cracks and stretch marks, it will be misshaped once fired (compared to unfired brass) or the brass with have blast marks near the case mouth on the outside.
One point to considère is magazines dimensions ,,,you must reloading ammo to fit the magazine. Chamber dimension are secondary. Thank you for your time.
Here's a question for Nathan, if you think it worth asking; Do you believe that polishing the lede (leade/lead) stops fire crazing/cratering of the metal? I know you touched on this in this programme, by saying that polishing should be done before nitriding, but do you think that the polishing is integral to prolonging barrel life? Many thanks for the very informative shows, they are much appreciated.
A good question for installment #5!
Keep these videos up guys! I love them!
This is great company asvertising and customer relation for huilding trust.
When are you going to do another interview with Hill and Mac, not that don't enjoy Faxon, I am curious what's going on with them.
Thanks for the interviews to Faxon, Karl, and Ian.
+Zed Hiro Yes, the next one releases on 8/19. ~K
InRangeTV Thanks for the reply I appreciate it.
i wonder if the tease has anything to do with the survey faxon sent asking what sort of finish i prefer on my glock barrels. hmm. great video fellas, thanks for all the gun nerd knowledge.
That was just lucky timing.
Question: Why do Faxon Barrels not feature a dimple opposite the gas port like some other barrels? Is there a specific reason?
wotnuk Nathan has stated elsewhere that Faxon omits dimpling to keep their barrels universal to the different gas block designs (pinned, clamp on, set screws), as well as reduced cost for the consumer.
Specter covers most of it, but we'd be happy to go into additional detail in the next part.
Faxon how do the pencil or gunner barrels hold up to use with a suppressor? Are they rigid enough or will they droop and throw off point of impact as the the barrel heats up? Not talking full auto or anything just semi auto rapid fire at the worst.
I had a Gunner and didn't notice any discernible shift with the suppressor on or off. Granted, I have a TBA ultra 7 which is a pretty light weight suppressor and I wasn't dumping mags either. So ymmv.
Thanks for the info.
Any suppressor will change POI just due to the change in barrel harmonics (on any weight) and the change in how the barrel uncorks the projective. The Gunner series will host a suppressor very well. I run a 11.5" mid on my personal carbine.
Winchester’s fraternal twin to the .222 Remington Special, the .224 Winchester E2, appears to have inspired ArmaLite’s use of a 2 degree, 27 second throat angle, which has lived on in the 5.56mm NATO chamber. In contrast, the current SAAMI throat angle for the .223 Remington chamber mimics its commercial siblings, the .222 Remington and .222 Remington Magnum.
So, what's the joke behind "torque wrench"? I must have missed it.
If I recall correctly, this was in the "free float handguard installation" walkthrough. At some point a torque wrench was employed....in an "incorrect/improper" manner. The internet scolded Karl mercilessly for this offense. While technically correct, the required torque value range was so *wildly* varied, that the level of precision demanded was rendered a moot point........In any case...Karl is now a poopyhead who doesnt know how to use a torque wrench :)
Oh no, how can the internet do that to Karl. Clearly, there's no going back for him as internet is not a forgiving fella, if forums and youtube comments are to be believed.
Had to go check the video and .. jeez.. i thought it was something really bad and dumb but no, it's a little thing done according the manual but because internet, this is a thing now.
Does anyone have the vid link in question? It does not seem to be coming up for me.
A question stemming of the full auto mag dump. Is there a specific "rate of fire" that is needed to be effective? Has the military conducted studies on this? If so what is it and is it possible to reach this level with a semi auto only rifle or is full auto needed. I hear all the time that the M249 rate of fire is too high to provide sustained cover and it runs at 725/1000 rpm if I remember correctly. Second question is would a better trigger in a service rifle preclude the use or even installation of full auto in a service rifle?
Why do bolt action rifles usually use 2-3 lug bolts instead of multi lug designs such as on the ar-15? One would think that the more consistent locking of the multi lug design would be especially important on a bolt action sniper rifle.
Probably too expensive for the outcome. But some European manufacturer use more than 2 or 3 locking lugs: Steyr = 4 (Austria), Rößler Titan = 3, 6 or 16 (Austria), Sauer = 6 (Germany), Mauser = 6 (Germany)...
River Styx Armory Thank you, for your comprehensive answer. That was very informative.
Do three lug rotating bolts have a tendency of not locking? I would have imagined the thicker lugs would be more resistant to higher forces than a multitude of smaller ones.
INTCY: I don't think so. Those bolt actions with 3 lugs I had the opportunity to lay hands on were all excellent and in the more expensive range. (Mauser, Sauer, Sako TRG M10)
Can .223 Remington headspace gauges be used to check a .556 NATO chamber? Since both rounds measure the same from the shoulder back, and the headspace is measured from the shoulder it seems like it shouldn't matter.
I find this so interesting! Will there ever be a part 5?
You mentioned speaking with a bullet manufacturer: if you do, *please* think about Berger. I'd love to hear what kind of answers they give to your and your viewers' questions...
Q fpr Faxon: Why does the 16" gunner have a .081 gas port while the 16" pencil has a .073 gas port? They both have a .625 gas block journal.
Has Faxon ever considered doing custom shop orders for those of us who want more restrictive gas ports?
Where is 5 6 7 8? .. love these vids
How does nitriding / chrome plating processes affect the heat dissipation capability of the barrel???
Interesting. I understood most of it but what it boils down to in terms of the ordinary "everyday plinker" is stick to what you know and don't worry about the technical bullshit. Your personal accuracy skills are far more important.
However, there was one point that rang a real warning. When I was a novice, I was told by an " experienced" marksman that the snake bore cleaning rope was suffice for clearing barrel lead deposit. Believe me, it is not. The lead build-up eventually caused the excessive pressure to split the cases. I could not understand why accuracy had gone. I blamed the ammo until a wise man told me otherwise.
Although I could still clearly see the rifling, I did not realize it was clogged with lead. I was advised to get a brush, rod and Hoppes No 9. The muck that came out was amazing. It took days, but eventually all was put right.
Ian's stash has super powers
Point of interest regarding head space,,,, the dimensions of head space are different between 308 win,, and 7.62x51.
Question for you guys.
I built an AR with premium parts such as wilson combat match grade barrel and a lantac bolt carrier group. When it came to checking headspace, i did not close on the No Go gauge as it shouldn’t but when it came to the go gauge. The bolt doesn’t close either. O used another bolt by src and it still wont close on the go gauge. When i shot it do to an armorers advice stating that it didnt matter there was severe wear on both of my bolts lugs and the rifle would not cycle. it would shoot the round but not extract the round or load the next. I disassembled the gas system thinking that the gas block was not set right but after reinstalling it the same issue occurred. All this happened within 50 rounds
Around 19:30 Ian mentions something that sounds like "the chip program." I know I am hearing this wrong, but I am interested in what he is referring to. Anyone have better hearing than me?
I've got multiple rifles using Faxon barrels...and they've been wonderful
Excellent. If you ever have an issue, please let us know and we will be happy to help!
Faxon Firearms if there ever is an issue that pops up I'll let you guys know. However I'm not gonna bother you guys over a barrel that has 20,000 rounds through it and isn't holding 1 moa anymore ha ha
Deal!
Faxon Firearms I'm wanting to put together another rifle in the future you guys have first choice.
I'm surprised no one mentioned the savage 110 barrel nut system when you were talking about head space.
An interview with Mr Litz from Berger needs to happen
What are the prospects of Faxon making FAL barrels?
Being honest, not high. We tend to focus on platforms with easy installation for our users. We do, however, make many barrels for OEMs that are used in similar platforms.
Great topic stream, especially as I am a Mechanical Engineer! Is there any reason that the 223 Wylde barrels only come in a 1-8 twist rate (to my knowledge)? Would a 1-7 twist rate work measurably better for heavier weight rounds such as 77 grain?
Installment #5 question!
How does headspacing work on a MG42/MG3/Ameli? From what I understand, headspacing the guns in the field doesn't happen. Are they all pre-headspaced or do they headspace themselves?
nvm, apparently all the barrels were pre-headspaced and the guns work fine on the no go gauge. This apparently gave them enough confidence to hand the guns with three barrels total to their gunners and forget about the issue. I seem to remember being told that some gunners had up to five, but that might just be hearsay rumors.
What about fluting? How does that affect strength and heat dissipation?
Covered in an earlier video in this series.
If you replace your bolt &barrel and it does not pass the headspace check, how do you know if it is not passing because of the bolt or the barrel?
So where does Weatherby sit in accordance with accuracy, quality control and consistency ?
I think you meant "Century" grinding the CETME bolt faces?
What gauges would you use for a .223 wylde barrel
Hi there! I was curious about your guys thoughts on the Pantheon arms Dolos system and how that would affect accuracy... I am building a 300 blk backpack pistol and was curious if this would be an effective solution to reducing the overall size of the package. Thank you in advance!
What barrel is on Ian's wwsd rifle? You guys say pencil but I don't find a 18 inch pencil barrel on Faxon' s website, I do find a gunner though.
It is our 18" Gunner. For that long of a barrel, we added a bit more meat over the true pencil profile.
What is the lightest 20 inch barrel on the market?
I believe our 20" Gunner profile is the winner.
The discussion of the .223 Wylde chamber focused on its limitations in terms of improving the ultimate accuracy of a rifle with match ammo / hand loads.
But my understanding of the main benefit of a Wylde spec chamber is that it can tend to somewhat improve the accuracy one can expect from cheap ammo / tends to make a rifle less ammo sensitive.
Any thoughts? It that just an old wives' tale?
Anthony Droege That's not exactly how the discussion went. They pretty much covered your question:
The gain will be minimal.
It's only when you seek the ultimate accuracy in an otherwise tuned system that it makes sense to consider the chamber type for accuracy.
i saw on another channel a draco barrel that is supposed to be lightweight and dissipates heat extremely well. does faxon have something similar? how long can a draco barrel fire before it reaches critical heat vs a heavy steel barrel?
OK guys I have the Go/No Go Gauge think down I think. However, I have never used a Field Gauge, is the Field Gauge something the average/typical AR user should have or is it something that is getting into the area of full out gunsmithing, engineering, nerd land, or etc??? The way it was described it seemed something worth knowing.
Can y'all talk about faxon 6.5 barrels they just realized one and no one is talking about it I'm a huge 6.5 Grendel fan so it would be awesome
What question can we answer with them?
What is the best-built, most accurate and reliable production AR?
Do chrome lined chambers have a less likely chance of a stuck cases vs other treatments?
Any opinions on the new falkor dracos barrels? I'm getting one for my next build.
Question for Faxon. What do you guys use for a coating for your barrels. I had to counter sink the screws to hold a front sight group. The normal bits just spun and didn't bite. I had to use carbide to make the counter sink.
They Nitride the entire barrel.
Elephant Ride answered most of the question. Carbide is needed for drilling nitrided parts.
I bet someone from Sierra bullets would come on... That would be neat..
Thanks....
Hello InRangeTV team!
I'd be very interested in seeing a USMC WW2/Korea or Vietnam 2 gun. Thinking M1 Garand vs M1 Carbine or M14/M1A vs M16/Colt SP1 with M1911s for the sidearm.
Keep up the good work, thanks for all the outstanding content! Semper Fi from Okinawa!!!
410 or 416 stainless steel and why? Durability and corrosion resistance
Speaking of heat dissipation as well as barrel rigidity, I've seen some manufacturers begin wrapping barrels in carbon fiber. From my own preliminary research it seems that there are kinds of carbon fiber that have different properties. Is there any truth to carbon fiber dissipating heat faster, and would you have a less rigid barrel if you used one wrapped in carbon fiber compared to one of the same diameter but that was solid steel?
David Hammers CF is generally a very good insulator compared to steel. The carbon itself is a great conductor but because it's a composite the epoxy which distributes the stress is not very thermally conductive.
Pistol meaning intermediate/ full size caliber pistols?
Can the tech used to make AR barrels be repurposed to make AK barrels?
It is everyday!
40:43 & 41:10 The heck is a 'mod deus'? I assume you're talking about the M2 Browning, or some other .50 BMG machine gun, but I don't know what this phrase is.
Ma deuce, just slang for M2
you don't get the option of a polish before rifling on every barrel ... Diemaco does everything in one step... there is no opportunity to polish before anything.
This is why their isn't a POI (point of impact) shift between a first shot and a 1,000th shot ... and that's what makes their barrels the choice of every spec ops in the west.
hey Faxon has anyone ever experimented with titanium barrels ? if so what were the results
collin simpson I've heard when shot, it strips rifling. Although I'm not an expert.
A good question for installment #5!
I clearly missed the inside joke about torque wrenches.
Is SMG still in business?
+Rebelbrand SMG guns, Rick Smith? Yes, absolutely. Still making fg42s... ~K
more ammo, this is good.Ian is don van vliet .
velt.C B H.
It seems like even kinda cheep guns today aren't to bad.
Iains schollars cradle massiv