P&S ModCast 103 - Gun Nerds 6: 5.56 Vs .308 (and Other Silly Interim Ideas)
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- Опубліковано 5 вер 2024
- Primary & Secondary ModCast
New weapons and new calibers for interim options to be fielded by the U.S. Military.
Is it a hardware solution for a software problem?
How will that affect combat loadouts?
Is it effective?
Panel:
Dugan Ashley: Carnik Con
Jordan Bowles: Carnik Con
Ash Hess: Author TC 3-22.9 Rifle and Carbine and TC 3-23.35 Pistol
Karl Kasarda: InRange TV
Matt Landfair: Primary & Secondary
Mike Lewis: 82 Airborne Retired
Ian McCollum: Forgotten Weapons
Chuck Pressburg: Presscheck Consulting
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Intro music by American Hitmen - Killing Floor
0:00 Introductions
8:20 Chuck goes on a Rant, When and Why for 5.56 vs 7.62, misses and combat load, X-SAPI
24:40 Marksmanship, Tactics and Explosives
37:15 ROE, Armor Penetration, Markmanship, SALVO & H Y P E R B U R S T
47:45 "You can't get kills without putting bullets on the guy", Software vs Hardware solutions, Training
54:45 Qualification Shooting vs Reality, Chuck games the system
1:05:30 Chuck reads his love letter from Petraeus, Zeroing
1:14:00 Ammo Distribution, Training issues, SCAR 17 and the RFI
1:24:00 Why .308 for the RFI, Cartridge Selection (Gun Jesus Preaches to His Disciples on Mount Picatinny)
1:33:40 Specifics of Killing People, Shot Placement, Esoteric Evolutions to sub-5.56
1:46:00 77gr/Mk262 Lethality, JAG being an oxygen thief
1:52:40 "How Serious is the Army on 7.62?" *cue Chuck bitter laughter* 6.8 SPC, Cartridge Adoption
2:01:10 .280 Brit v .308, New Bullets during War, 6x35, AR-15 Magwell
2:07:30ish LSAT and Polymer Case, Replace the Case, Weight considerations
2:20:00 MOCK THE M-14, MG RoF, bullshit memoirs, .308 logistics in the squads
2:30:00 "Interim" Rifle, Pure Fleet vs Arms-Room, AP Requirement
2:42:00 Warfighting Problems and Soldier Load, Lack of Mobility and Uniform stuff
3:00:00 More Uniform Stuff, Gortex, LBE, Gear Customization and Placement, Critical Thinking
3:17:30 Accepting the Battle Raifu, Suppressors, Manufacturer, New Zealand
3:32:10 Chuck reads his Kuwait packing list, shares his drop story
3:42:30 Powered Exoskeletons, Jevon's Paradox
3:45:30 Wrapping up
I really liked this modcast, though I would've loved some more direct terminal ball-istics comparisons between M855A1 and M80/M80A1. I've got a niggling suspicion that M855A1 is the more terminally killy round, though as Ash points out, the requirement is motivated by armor penetration.
James Kachman Unfortunately we are unable to get into specifics of M855A1 at this time.
+Primary & Secondary totally get that, wouldn't want to get anyone in trouble - but not even some of the public videos that have been put out?
Our stuff is being... restrained
Methinks there's shenanigans going on... keep up the good fight guys!
Doesn't matter how great M855A1 is if no gun that we can make and stand up to shooting it. 60k+ chamber pressures.
I am in a never-ending cycle of being cautiously confident in the AR one minute and saying "oh shite this thing is not going to work" in the next minute. This dialogue gave me more confidence and may have saved me many thousands of dollars.
Tea & Empire that is part of the motivation of the P&S network
this pod cast is gold. Hands down the best gun pod cast I've seen. Its nice to hear from the people who have been there
I waited two hours for Dugan to finally mention Rhodesian shorts because I knew it had to happen, based on the caliber topic, and I was right! Love my FAL!
CountryHombre TIME STAMP PLS
1h 53 mins or so
"It's a long way to Mukumbura, it's a long way, to Jawl!"
Chucks a straight up badass.
Just listen to Chuck at around the 9:45 mark or so for 30 seconds and that's all you need to watch about the topic.
My FFL loves 308 and I was feeling the pull to focus more on 308 as a main battle rifle caliber. That fifteen minutes or so, wow. I'm back solidly in the 223/556 camp.
nice to see carnik con is still alive
Raptor Fred You must not have been paying attention.
Raptor Fred If you aren't seeing the value of having him on the panel, there is no need to try to convince you.
I think the MG in .338 Norma Magnum is going to be far less costly than what is suggested here. The round is mostly used for long range shooting by quite a small section of gun owners. They might spend 5 dollars per round but they buy 20 rounds of the best ammo they can get. The army is going to look for 20 million rounds that are good enough. And the round will mostly compete with .50 BMG which also cost a lot of money.
7.62 NATO as a general issue for Riflemen will get a lot of soldiers killed. Combat load, and therefore small unit combat endurance, will be so low, that it will throw a wrench in the system showing up when you start to get more calls on the net from elements in contact asking for reinforcement and resupply, even in urban terrain feeding from vehicles.
The local units will see the symptoms show up first as dudes start looking for resupply from the trucks, which constrains your ability to prosecute your skirmish line/FLOT and maintain momentum, because there is this distraction of trying to feed 7.62 NATO rifles. We already knew this from the Ft. Benning studies from the early 1960s which invalidated the choice of the M14/7.62 NATO service rifle system.
Nonsense.
Ever tried to outfit a dismounted Infantry unit with 7.62 NATO across the board? It's an abortion.
This is one of my favorite episodes. I really enjoyed this conversation. I am not law enforcement. I am not former or current military. I'm just a responsible civilian sheepdog and my hobby is target shooting and hunting. This conversation kept my interest I could follow along with their logic they did not get into the weeds with a bunch of pedantic details and fancy lingo. Good job on this one guys
I really like the scar17 with SR 25 mags. The recoil is really light compared to my dad's S&W M&P10. My LWRC REPR does too.
It's interesting @43:20 to hear that historically, there's always been a battle between equipment and training, and trying to have one compensate for the other, to meet some anticipated or unrealistic standard.
I hope you can get Chris Bartocci in the panel of the next Gun Nerds. He has a vast knowledge of the AR15/M16 and M4 carbine.
😳🤔
Honestly one of my favorite videos
More chuck pressburg!
www.patreon.com/Presscheckconsulting/
What an eye opening discussion. Awesome.
Steyr AUG 20” in 6x45 for average Joe and AUG 24” in 6x45 with 42rd mags. Need a CQB? 14” barrel in 6x45 or 9mm... Done. One caliber, interchangeable mags, ammo, sights, spare parts with lightweight and compact size. BEST overall compromise.
Great episode, and good to see Roland back
49:30 We definitely did both when I was in. There was an emphasis in the proper fundamentals on a KD range be we also did more practical shooting in a Kevlar and flak, close range, distance, moving, barricade, nvg, etc.
33:39 Holy crap! I have a friend who works at Raytheon. They're smaller arms stuff for missiles are really cool.
Showing some love to mortars! Chuck! Send it! Aim with your thumb!
5.56 vs .308. If the answer isn't 5.56 and it isn't .308. What is the answer? "It would be a Plasma rifle in the 40 Watt range." MIC DROP!
40 s&w mp5 is the answer
Too bad the 110gr 7.62x40WT did not get a look. At least I don't think they did. More lethality than 5.56 and less weight of 762 NATO .
When you go to 6.5 you do get throat erosion issues. That's also a big factor.
+1000 likes for Dugan's reference to whipsnake. Steve Climber!
This was such an interesting and enlightening discussion. Thanks!
Another factor with terminal performance is length matters more than diameter in spitzer bullets. the bad thing about 5.56 is even though it has velocity, its short, and doesnt tear as much ehen tumbling or produce as large fragments as a long bullet would.
It's been 5 years.. The army adopted 6.8x51... Everything y'all said is coming to pass...freaking gun Nostradamuss I swear
1:39:00 is still the best minute of this episode
Idk why Ian and Karl think 5.56 is anywhere close to 308 and people are acting like 5.56 has a prayer at any significant distance. With a 308 and a slick bullet you can say fuck wind for about 600 yards and get a hit. 5.56 gets iffy, with Mk 262, much past 400 and the energy and velocity on target is also no comparison at distance.
Did you want the video?
@@PrimaryAndSecondary by all means I’d love to see it. I think he’s straight talking out his butt right here.
@Lost_Achaean a 7.62x39 is probably 400-500 ft/sec slower than 308. Common 150 gr ball is 2600-2750 from a carbine while 7.62x39 is praying for 2350 ft/sec with a 123.
no doubt. I think the mg34 was one of the best MGs of all time with its rate of fire not too fast not too slow, select fire capability and ease of barrel change.. The mg42 is much better fit for use with the tripod
Some good points all around. 7.62 x 51 will give you better long range ballistics. That's fine if all we will ever do is fight in Afghanistan or similar terrain. But we know that's not the case. Waste of time, money, effort and its really very short sighted to do this.
If I remember correctly,the M855 steel penetrator is a 10gr cone.
Would a SR 25 dmr in every platoon or even section not solve the 4 pkm's in the hill problem?
It could, sure, but then you still have the issue of how to train those guys to hit out to 600-700m. That's not something a lot of guys have the training to do, is the point the panel makes. (Personally, I like RAAWS in the weapons squad to solve the "long range PKM" problem.)
Its fun going back to old Modcast and see Ash Pre Beard.
God stuff they’ve said is exactly why I got out of the military “Jones you can’t wear multicam in the field it has to be ocp”
Maybe what needs to be designed is a a rifle that can shoot 2 or more different cartridges of the same caliber without any need to modify the gun. just design a chamber, bolt, and gas (or even a blowback) system that can shoot 2 different round lengths (or maybe even 3 if someone is that creative enough). For example it could shoot a round that is 50mm in length and one that is 30mm in length, but with the same caliber. I can promise you it would be one hell of a design, and I do believe it would be possible.
I'm not a fanboy or anything, but it seems like 6.5 Grendel is a pretty good compromise.
Maybe I misheard but I find it funny that Chuck reffered to the over neurotic defense industry as Ike's issue. Considering Dwight Eisenhower was one of the first to warn of an over infalted military complex and is famous for believing the search for absolute secuirty would only lead to bankruptsy.
hardware vs software thing. In a time of war, in the scale of WWII, how much time do you need to get a green recruit to make accurate hits at 300?
A long two weeks
So are we willing to revisit this subject now that I can talk about it?
sounds like those aluminium cases were made from an aluminium & magnesium. if it has magnesium it tends to burn real nice. i also wonder if titanium & aluminium alloy would make a better case
Is it wrong I still want a .308?
Not really as long as you understand its limitations and don't try to push it into a role it isn't particularly suited for.
I think so?
Fals and daisy dukes
4yrs later and what 7.62 gun do we have
Pre-beard Ash...fuckin A!
What about a lighter gun like the pof Revolution, that’s in a smaller size frame but chambered in .308 for a limited application .308 dmr type role? Would that be a viable option, to help keep the weight of rifle down given piston driven, 14.5-18.5” barrel at >7.5-8lbs bare?
Or even a small frame ar n get new 6.5 Grendel uppers at 14.5-20” length to bridge gap between 5.56&.308
Going to a light .308 gun doesn't address the weight and bulk of the ammo itself which are the real issues. 6.8 SPC is dead because it's just 7.62x39 with a slightly better bullet and has a rainbow- like trajectory.
If the Army REALLY wants a cartridge with more legs than 5.56 but without the weight of .308, it needs a new gun entirely with a mag well in between the M4 and SR25 sizes. Maybe a 6.5x45mm something or other?
It'll kick a little harder than 5.56 but not to the point that it's uncontrollable in a carbine about the size of the M4.
It'll weigh more and you'll probably lose about 30-50 rounds for the same weight/ bulk. Combine it with a powder and 90 grain bullet optimized for 28-2900 fps out of a 14.5" barrel so that it has the same performance as a 6.5 Grendel out of a barrel that's 10" shorter. The "DMR" round would be 130 grains and fire at about 26-2700 fps of a 18-20" barrel.
But it would be ludicrously expensive to build a new gun from the ground up, manufacture new mags, and new pouches.
If they're going to fix the weight issue, they need to perfect polymer case ammo or something semi caseless which is only going to increase cost more.
As for AP, a .204 tungsten core could do the job
Dan Martinez so you making an argument for something like the 6.5 Grendel with a slightly longer case with slightly larger case capacity? I can understand that in an ideal world.
As by no means am I migrating away from 5.56 for my primary gun. I’m wanting the lightest possible set up with what’s out there now for specific situations. I went with the Revolution That fully outfitted with optic, white light, sling & suppressor snd no mag is ruffly >12lbs.n using imi razor core 175grain I’m 20rd lancer L7awm, for those times when needing to reach over 500 yards with energy left to spare once it reaches the target. If I ever stray from 5.56 for my primary it will be for 13.9” 6.5 Gendel that has more energy than an 20” 5.56 n could reach out to most reasonable distances with a sandman k while remaining compact, using 90 grain “varmint grenades” rounds. While what your saying is ideal with the current offerings on market those are some of the better combos I could think of presently for a civilian like me who just wants to cover his bases if things go south.
@@fook-joby-den6172 but what they're saying is is that the real issue with going to a .308 is that the ammo weighs so much more and that it takes so much more space, not to mention that it recoils so much more, especially in a lighter gun. Then the concussion is going to be stupidly obnoxious in CQB. What I was saying is that if the Army wanted to do it right, they'd look for a true intermediary solution in a rifle that's built to handle it instead of practically skeletonizing the bolt like 6.5 Grendel
Dan Martinez That all makes sense. Thanks.
Did I hear you right that a 556 is more lethal than a 762?
Yes, at ranges under around 200 when compared to M80 ball.
@Phillip Cameron Not sure many soldiers are blastin black hills. Some are. Nor are their barrels 20" unless they are fobbits/snipers.
So I doubt black hills would be more lethal for the average grunt at 500 than M80 ball, which is not even fair. If you have 77 otm, you'd likely have 175 otm in the 7.62. But Black hills out of a 20"+ may still be better, idk.
Yes 55 grain 5.56 is more effective on a target than m80 ball
Chuck should be a 5 stars general :D
Ash Hess mentioned the Army wanting to go to a 7.62 NATO battle rifle because of the near peer Russian threat/body armor. He specifically mentions the AP ammo on hand is 7.62 NATO, the M993 AP. Somebody even mentions that the Army should just come up with 5.56 AP ammo with a tungsten penetrator. The Army also has 5.56 AP, its called M995, its DODIC is AB33. From what I've read it can penetrate ESAPI plates so its likely to pierce Russian armor which is under Lvl IV. Why isn't this being utilized? Is there a reason they need 7.62 NATO AP and not 5.56 AP? The eight hundredth of an inch different in permanent wound cavity doesn't seem to be justification for the loss of magazine capacity, basic load, increased recoil, and the cost and problems of replacing many thousands of carbines.
Hadji using non-AP ammo and really shitty marksmanship have been suppressing US and allied combat arms folks wearing ballistic helmets and hard armor plates for the last 16 years, so its not like AP ammo is needed to fix an enemy to maneuver on them or to finish with supporting arms...
Interesting. I did not know we had an AP round for 5.56. I want to see if it really can do work against that Russian armour. I've seen M855A1 do didly dick to that gear.
At about the 53:00 mark the comments about theoretical training regimens versus actual training activities is so spot on for law enforcement as well. It's a cancer on my department. They have no interest in even addressing it ether.
How do we get soldiers to shoot better? Teach them to shoot like us.
Dude with the redbeard looks like Chris Bartocci.
UltimateEnd0 it's not
@@PrimaryAndSecondary Thank God
Maybe I'm just crazy, maybe I love the Corps too much but these issues with marksmanship training or qual issues seems to be a problem with the Army. These issues aren't nearly as bad in the Corps, at least in my experience. Heck, when I that one guy said that mag changes aren't a part of the course of fire I laughed. It's all part of our course of fire. Depending what table we were shooting we are moving, shooting behind barricade, shooting with nvgs or what have you. Again maybe I'm too moto about the Corps but it seems like if the Army would just train like us a lot of their marksmanship issues would be solved. Disclaimer I've never been in combat so I have no idea whether or not our guys use that marksmanship training in a firefight.
thaty was his story from the very late 90's. i think this has changed alot
Great discussion, please fix Ash's mic it's difficult to listen due to the ear piercing "s" squeal. It's on several other episodes also
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