P&S ModCast 125 - Terminal Ballistics
Вставка
- Опубліковано 15 вер 2024
- Primary & Secondary ModCast
Formerly known as Sitrep 8 - Terminal Ballistics released July 2016.
Host: Matt Landfair
Panel:
Dr. Gary Roberts
Roland aka Chuck Pressburg
Mike H
Chuck Haggard
Bill Blowers
J. L. Bourne
Matt Meckley
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Intro music by American Hitmen - Killing Floor
You should listen to the whole thing, they are just carpet bombing us with knowledge bombs backed with LE/Military/Medical experience, but here it is by topic:
2:25 Podcast intro and introduction of the panel and their backgrounds
7:17 Misconceptions about terminal ballistics
9:04 Properties of duty/self defense ammunition of most importance
10:38 Roland's take on barrel length's relationship with penetration, and barriers
15:00 Doc talking on LE's experience going from FMJ to Gold Dot
16:10 Why birdshot for home defense sucks, and looking at LE gun/ammo selection as a guide
18:15 Buckshot enters the discussion
18:55 Slugs are now discussed, in the context of residential areas/home defense use
19:47 AR15 as a prime choice for home defense and why
21:27 Limitations and weaknesses of shotguns for home defense
23:00 Mike and Doc talking on challenges within LE agencies and Mil in understanding terminal ballistics
25:18 Roland discussing the origins of misinformation about terminal ballistics within LE/Mil
27:09 Specific talk on the Glaser Safety Slug and why it sucks
28:03 First mention of defeating cars/car doors as barriers, leading to the old negative image of Mini14/AR15 for LE
30:20 Don't underestimate frangible ammunition
31:53 LE agencies not using FBI resources (for free) to learn more info for weapons/ammo selection
33:44 "backyard testing" of projectiles versus actual FBI-grade gel testing
36:40 Ammo selection first, then finding a gun the agency should adopt and why it should be in that order
39:30 AR15 home defense ammo selection, and how it differs from the ammo selection for a LE patrol rifle
42:50 Roland's liquor store shootout, and knowing what your bullets will go through and how cover/concealment differs
45:02 AR barrel length and how it should help dictate proper ammo selection
47:10 Definition of "barrier blind" property of projectiles
47:55 Defining of terms; internal, external, terminal, and wound ballistics
51:50 SS109/M855 "Green Tip," what it was designed to specifically do, and why it suffers if not shot from a 18-20" barrel
55:20 Bullpup rifles and why European military forces wanted them with regard to M855
59:39 Chuck's take on the original purpose of M855, and the consequences of making ammo to win a contract
1:01:56 Chuck on FBI testing, and LE ammo selection needing to be a better-informed process
1:03:16 The media vilifying military 5.56mm ammo while common hunting ammunition is far more destructive
1:04:47 Roland's insistence that the AR15 is an optimized "killing machine," and the pro-gun community needs to be forthright about this, but they should not at all be banned, and the media's lack of knowledge
1:08:30 "Going postal," mass shootings, and Roland's ideas as to why they've become more common, and they will continue
1:11:55 Discussion of "assault rifles" in shootings, and how much more destruction would occur if hunting rifles/ammo were used
1:13:20 The shortcomings and illogical approach of driving gun laws with emotion rather than knowledge and truths
1:15:46 Conundrum of pistol ammo potentially being an over-penetration concern more than AR/carbine loads
1:17:17 The .380 ACP enters discussion, and the particular challenges with the round itself, and the guns chambered in them
1:20:16 Doc talks on the importance of choosing reliable, consistent ammo and ammo held to strict Govt requirements
1:22:00 Going into the weeds of .380 defensive choices, basically only being able to choose a "least worst" option
1:28:00 "Little man" guns, non-permissive carry environments, paranoia about over-penetration that may not be real, versus real over-penetration concerns
1:33:30 Issues with .380 ACP reliability in various gun offerings
1:35:08 Pistol barrel length and bullet weight combinations, Doc argues what's most important in choosing loads
1:37:00 The importance of LE agencies having several approved loads for ammo availability concerns
1:38:30 Chuck on 9mm 124 gr +P versus 147 gr loads and where each option thrives
1:40:15 Conversation moves to long range shots, and how accuracy then starts to outweigh terminal ballistics priorities
1:42:23 Evolution of 9mm projectile construction/design and the gradual downfall of .40 S&W
1:46:40 Chuck shitting on the Glaser Safety Slug, handgun supremacy fantasy, the constant search for the "magic bullet," the emergence of "fad ammo," the resurgence of 9mm
1:52:18 Shot Placement enters the discussion, Doc advocates for higher mag capacity for lots of hits
1:55:05 J.L. Bourne's introduction via Roland
1:57:30 Subsonic rounds with suppressors enter discussion with the MP5SD origin story (The "Bee Story") as told by Roland
2:03:20 Bill Blowers comes in with Chuck and they talk about the importance of test-firing duty ammo
2:04:47 Doc drops the bomb on the use of subsonic rounds with suppressors for LE use, and continuous misinformation within LE agencies on round selection and SOP for officers in a shoot
2:07:15 Suppressor use for SWAT with unknown or often ignored considerations
2:09:50 .300 Blackout enters discussion, the shooting of sentries/dogs in LE operations, LE should stay away from subsonic ammo in long guns
2:15:00 Ultimate smack down on pistol-caliber carbines/long guns
2:16:10 Dumping money on training versus having a plethora of guns and calibers, CCW/EDC gospel, prioritize mastery rather than chasing the next "fad ammo"
2:21:08 .22 LR out of rifles actually doing work -don't underestimate it, with crazy Roland story of .22 rifle getting shit done
2:25:27 Have a gun, preferably a long gun
2:25:57 Doc giving out guidance to LE departments for selecting ammo
2:28:15 Accuracy standards verses man-killing power for a patrol carbine, understanding the balance/trade-off
2:33:45 Different calibers performing the same penetration standards
2:35:27 Ballistic shields being a huge asset to LE
2:37:00 Smack down of 4.6mm/5.7mm for LE and home defense, and a discussion on where/how it does thrive
2:41:07 INTENSE "5.7mm in the Ft. Hood shooting" discussion, Beretta M9/115gr FMJ verses FN FiveSeven, disarmed US Military service members on military installations
2:43:50 Fighting mindset in an active shooter situation
2:44:48 Pervasiveness of ballistics myths and misinformation
2:49:45 Discussion of how many rounds/volume of training officers get and proficiency among LE, keeping skills sharp
2:53:42 The importance of handgun training and how pistol skills require the most training to stay sharp
3:02:05 Shit can happen at random, even in an unsuspecting or "low-threat" setting, the low-capacity/no-reload carry option is risky
3:03:19 Handguns are tough to be good with, pistol marksmanship is not common
3:05:00 Accuracy in shooting versus speed, and what's most important
3:08:22 "Transcending ballistics" and how experience counts
3:10:00 Difference between being fast and being proficient
My comments as a dude on UA-cam and a bystander to what just happened:
The discussion on M855 really made things come into perspective for me, considering the threats we faced in Afghan and Iraq. We weren't squaring off against Soviet troops wearing "bunk-ass armor," we're talking about malnourished and thin dudes with minimal kit, and certainly no armor, using mainly 14.5" M4s, and the "ice-pick" effect and multiple shots needed makes sense to me now, considering the craziness talked about with the 193 and 20" M16s in Vietnam. It also helps me understand why we now use the M855A1 "brown tip," and I'm curious what Roland, Chuck, and Doc Gary would say on the data and testing on that round. That round has gone well outside the pressure tolerances of NATO 5.56mm loads, it's wearing down gas rings, bolt cams, and other parts -even the M4 feed ramps are showing aggressive wear just cycling it. All of that looks like it was in pursuit of going back to a 3,000+ fps velocity out of a 14.5" barrel, and we're certainly seeing the consequences of that with increased wear -our NATO allies certainly can't shoot it out of their guns, at around 60-63k PSI, it's right in the middle of regular 50-52k PSI NATO loads and the 70k PSI proof load used to high pressure test the bolts. So yeah, I'd like to hear what these dudes would say about the ballistics of the M855A1, because I don't think even the Army knows what this will look like long-term.
I've always thought the .380 was trash, and it didn't make sense to me when you can go just 1mm longer and hook into the 9mm world, especially since 9mm is more common and generally the same or cheaper in cost. When I'm at home I generally carry my M&P9 with two spare mags, but as I'm ramping up for deployment I abandon everything else and train with my personal M92F, and carry that in the months leading up to deployment. Not my favorite choice at all, but it's what I carry downrange and I just want to temporarily drop everything in preparation for that. It does feel good to hear someone validate my choices, which often confuse and perplex others as to why I'd go out of my way to stop shooting the "better" guns I own and just train with and carry that.
Lastly, I think Roland's perspective on "assault rifles" was a fresh and much-needed perspective. I think we hurt our cause when we try to mitigate the AR15 and attempt to pass it off as just a "nothing-special" modern sporting rifle. Yes, it's effective at killing people, it's the top choice of many people including myself, even at home when I could buy anything I wanted. I think there's difficulty in presenting the truth and not scaring people away, at the risk of them blowing you off as a psycho. I don't know how we effectively come forward with the truth, yet still retain and even gain people's attention when we also argue that they should not be banned. I think the "easy" road for most is to just try and claim it's nothing special, but I think ultimately that's doing us more harm than good.
Great podcast, truly awesome.
@Mr2ndAmenment Youre the man! Thanks
I disagree, the AR15 is a "nothing special" rifle. It's ubiquitous, it has the most aftermarket support, etc etc etc but let's look at the fact: the highest kill count achieved in a single mass shooting was obtained by a madman with a Mini-14 in Utoya, Norway. Obviously there's a ton of factors that come into play but as long as it's semi-automatic a "traditional sporting rifle" is just as effective at killing unarmed people.
I dont want my rifle to be effective one time. I want my rifle to be effective many, many, many times.
So I own ARs. Not mini 14s.
To say "everything semi automatic is equal" is fucking stupid.
No, it's not. People object to the concept of semi-automatic rifles, not how well they were designed or their production executed.
Single best and most thought out comment on youtube to date from anyone on any channel!
Had the distinct pleasure of spending time in conversation with Dr. Fackler while he was at Letterman. What he taught me stays with me today.
I can’t count how many times I’ve listened to this particular modcast.
Chuck has officially Transcended Ballistics.
+6mmFilms which Chuck?
Both, but 'the bullet's short happy life.' is golden
FACT.
One of the best modcasts to date. Particularly enjoyed the debunking of micro rounds and subsonic stuff like .300 Blackout fads.
This is golden. A little over 30 mins in and i wish i had transcripts to lay out for people.
Manuel_Snoreaga my thought exactly
This is one of the most fascinating and valuable Modcasts! I feel like this needs to be mandatory viewing/listening for everybody everywhere.
Really glad you put this out again, Matt. Extremely good information and worthwhile tangents.
2:37:00 for the 5.7 and 4.6 discussion. Mainly posting for my benefit, for when I share this with people who are asking about getting one.
In all honesty, the arguments they made are rather shallow, and you can easily disprove a lot of what they say there. It's a pistol round necked like a rifle round. Sure, it's not BEING a rifle round, but it's definitely stronger than a pistol round. Don't judge a book by "more mm vs fewer mm" when the with with fewer mm performs better in ballistic gel tests, performing similar to that of underpowered rifle rounds such as 5.56.
Im looking forward to chucks tactical tackle box filled with specialty ammo, molle compatible of course.
Big take away don't sweat the small stuff. Buy less stuff, buy more ammo, practice more, and be happy.
Awesome stuff. Thanks!
Good cast. Excellent panel
2:18:44 good place to start to hear the best line (comes roughly @ 2:20:17 - 2:20:25).
I missed it or failed to hear it-what office do I contact specifically at FBI for their ballistic research video? My department needs this terribly so.
Edited: I would very much appreciate generic email contact information for Dr Gary Roberts to get that specific FBI office info.
Jason McKinney
That was the Ballistics Research Facility. I could not find a publicly-available direct contact for that office in a quick Google search, so you would probably want to start by contacting the Quantico switchboard or having your Department's Training Officer contact them.
Awesome I learned some things today.
Damn. We just had a shoot through in New Mexico.
I agree with all this one was spot on "Great Information"
This was information blast for me-I really only have a rudimentary understanding of ballistics. Are there any good resources available that can build knowledge from the ground up to this level? There’s a lot of info out there, but not on par with this discussion. Thanks for sharing this podcast.
I have a few links to really old videos on different kinds of propellent work, and you could watch a lot of videos of gel tests.
I bet that such things would help you get educated.
I've listened to this 5 times....at least.
2:10:30 the dog part fuckin killed me lol
Roland is the only progun person I have ever heard tell the honest truth about assault rifles. I'm sick and tired of people using lies and half truths to try and defend our rights. Antigunners see right through that and will call you on it every time. All that does is make your case seem week.
I agree but the anti-2a media should also be honest about their intentions >> if they are going after 223/556 firearms they'll also have to include shotguns, hunting rifles, hunting loads etc. Not holding my breath.
Chuck is a bad ass I'd love to meet him
Btw that's min 50 if anyone wants to see
I am so f****** glad I said that however long ago it was because I wanted to refer back to it today
It was 1 hr 8 to 10 mins not 50
At 1:14:00, Doctor Roberts mentions “reduced capacity magazines” and I’m not sure contextually what he means, my department has/does issue 20 round PMAGs at times. Most are 30, but it’s a random thing and you may get two 20’s instead of two 30’s. I’m not sure if that’s what he means by reduced capacity, but just throwing it out there.
Jason McKinney The international standard for capacity with intermediate caliber Rifles and Carbines is 30 rounds. Anything less than that within the 5.56, 5.45, 7.62x35, or 7.62x39 caliber range is low capacity. 20 round mags still have there uses, easier to carry on a duty belt, fit in a small case, or backpack, but 95% of the time the 30 rounders are where it is at. Pistols are a whole other ballgame.
Jason McKinney He was talking about 10 round magazines that communist states restrict their citizens to.
Really appreciate the wisdom share on this one!
To give us better audio-quality, maybe Roland could turn his speakers down when on the mic? Unfortunalty, there is some unpleasant feedback in some parts.
+sportfreundrollins this was from over a year ago. We improved since
@primary&secondary Loved the commentary about intermediate barrier capability in a home defense situation. As a new LTC holder, are there benefits to carrying rounds with greater penetration potential when out and about? I'm thinking that the possibility of a shoot-through is greater (armor, barriers) in an active shooter situation.
Buddy in my department is an MPO on swat. He cannot stand shotguns and is trying to get them taken away from patrol division
+Goodspittin patrol rifles do provide a lot of value and are easier to run.
With the location of my home and the fact that I live alone, overpenitration is NOT a safety concern for me.
Digging the stache, Matt
It is an older video
Roland was just as fucking badass back then, I see.
What specific loads should I look for in a home defense ar with 16” 1/9 barrel. Over penetration isn’t a huge concern because I live in the country. Accuracy is a bigger concern, last month I had to make a “hostage shot” on a coyote that wanted to fuck up one of my dog at 40ish yards. Currently using Speer gold dot 64gr 223. I Chose that load just because it’s Speer and available. I’m getting 2-3 moa with it.
Bass Flats & Beyond lots of factors to consider- your barrel twist is not doing you any favors. We have a hunting specific group on Facebook that can help
Sounds like you’ve got excellent job security ;-)
Roland nails it regarding the AR-15 and the gun community's reluctance to admit what the media knows, that it is a highly effective killing machine. Let's admit that if only to avoid looking like fools to the bulk of Americans who generally don't have anti- or pro-gun attitudes and are simply want to understand what works, why it works and whether that is compatible in our society.
Well duh. That is all guns were designed to do. Kill things.
Could someone file a FOIA for the ballistic research?
it was attempted for the FBI caliber change a few years ago. the FBI withheld a bunch of information for "operational secrecy" or some nonsense.
I've been listening to these on sticher, is there an order on where u upload to first. Since I've been listening seems like sticher is way behind UA-cam at least. And is there some place where I can listen the older audio episodes? Btw not complaining love the show.
+tallhorse89 This one hasn't been released in audio only form yet.
Spreaker has the latest and provides live episodes. Old stuff is no longer available in audio only form.
Do they talk about ammunition vs various types of armor at any point? I don't wanna listen to 3 hours for no reason. Some guy linked this video on a discussion of m193 vs lvl III steel armor. Time stamp would be appreciated if they do.
see the post with all the time stamps? that's the best I have
@@PrimaryAndSecondary yea sorry didn't see that when I commented. Thanks for that post btw. Very helpful.
2:22
What do you guys think about .224 Valkyrie as a potential 5.56 replacement for the NGSAW/ whatever the Army is looking for the #nextgen rifle?
+Dan Vazquez No experience with it.
The .224 Valkyrie burns through barrels in just a few thousand rounds. As a standard issue Infantry or SOF round? Forget it.
224V hasn't been released yet, the offical launch is at SHOT, no one can say jack about it yet.
Why does DocKGR keep calling himself, "just a Dentist" ?
+VIPER150311 people who don't like him tend to refer to him as that in a derogatory fashion. I think it was his title on M4C as well.
Primary & Secondary
Gotcha. Have you guys considered doing a video on turd guns? Mini 14's, XD's, Taurus', High Points, etc. ?
That niche is already filled by most UA-cam channels.
Primary & Secondary I meant it as far as the why aspect as a definitive rebuttal to the derp out here that "proves" all the bad options are "just as good"