Catra Part 1: Broken Promises
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- Опубліковано 12 вер 2024
- This was a long time coming. However, when mapping out this video, we realized it would be like a hour long and we didn't want to deal with that. So we're breaking it up into multiple parts. This part covers Catra's childhood and Adora leaving the horde.
The show doesn't really address a lot when it comes to Catra's character. She is a victim but she also makes a lot of problems for herself by choosing to stay in a bad situation when she has multiple opportunities to leave it. She insists Adora broke their promise to look out for each other, but is that really the case? There's definitely a lot to unpack here.
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to quote linkara: a sympathetic backstory/motive is not the same as BEING sympathetic.
True, but that doesn't mean that Catra isn't entirely sympathetic.
@@StareachValcin
She was completely unsympathetic to me from begining to end. If anything, she reminds me of people I used to know who I don't have much positive things to say about, if any at all.
I thought you hated Linkara.
Another part of the way fans of this ship seem to have some dissonance with it is there is a very prevalent trope that adora had various scars from catra scratching her (and noelle even has some art of this), and the focus of the angst is how *Catra* feels guilty about it. Poor catra can’t handle the crushing guilt that she left a lasting mark on adora that she always sees. Meanwhile adora is completely unaffected by them and chooses to comfort catra and tell her that it doesn’t matter and she still loves her and she knows she didn’t mean it. Which is like?
Completely remove the characters names for a sec, and just look at how that it textbook example of how abusers will focus their abuse about how they feel guilty about that and it’s on the person they hurt to assure them it’s fine
The fact that you two are spending more than one part to breakdown why Catra is a problematic character makes me excited to see the rest. 👍
It worries me how so many she-ra stans will defend her actions till the day they die. Especially the catdora ship. It's such a toxic ship that does not deserve recognition or credit. Also they love comparing her to Zuko from ATLA, which is stupid as well. They are not on the same level of complexity. Zuko learned how his actions impacted innocent civilians and how the fire nation manipulated everyone into thinking THEY were the good guys. The gang ofc didn't trust him at all so he had to work hard to EARN it. He had incredible character growth. He wasn't perfect, he was human.
Honestly, Catdora probably is super popular only cause they are lesbians. People seem to refuse to believe they too can have toxic relationships and are just "YES MY GAY BABIES LOOK AT THEM 🥺🤩🥰😍🌈". It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
That's true zuko had didn't consider that what the fire nation was doing was wrong but catra in the first episode knows what their actual doing through out the series so that does seem like a poor comparison.
The shows idea that relationships will heal you like everything else is surface level. Just like the “best friend squad” don’t feel like best friends or how despite having “Princesses of Power” in the title of the show the Princesses don’t feel important or like fleshed out characters, the idea that relationships can help you heal boils down to shipping fuel.
Catra coming from an abusive background explains her behaviour, but does not justify it.
The show pretends that a sympathetic beginning is enough to make anyone redeemable forgetting that catra had strayed so far as to be a monster.
@george thompson And that she enjoyed every second of it.
Just remember the entire show, all 52 episodes is Noelle Stevenson desperately trying to tell the world that her abusive, poisonous relationship was a 'good thing'. All the story beats, plots, characters and elements that were ignored, dropped or forgotten was in service of that singular goal. And in the end, all she showed us was how much she was in need of legitimate help.
Redemption is a work in progress.
And no what makes someone redeemable is being willing to work for it. Catra's willing to work for it. Ergo she IS redeemable. Certainly not as bad as Horde Prime
@@ryanmoore6259 No, she doesn't. That's the problem, the only reason she switched sides is because Horde Prime scared the piss out of her. Maybe even literally.
@@Slitheringpeanut Well if you want you should watch Tangled the animated series take place after Tangled movie. Another pair that’s basically beta Catradora is Rapunzel and Cassandra.
I’d say Cassandra and Rapunzel is the healthiest version of Catradora even in Season 3.
Catra's arc could have worked if they established she was a product of Military Indoctrination. Soldier completely bred to be subservient to the Horde, taught to believe all who are againat the Horde are enemies. And made her relationship with Adora a bit better, making it so the two are very close, almost like sisters, who despite getting in friendly competitions, are still there for each other, and despite being second place, Catra doesn't care because Adora has always been there for her and wants to be there for her. And because of Catra's conditioning, she not only see this as an act of treason, but it hits her more, because Adora was her friend, and now she's going to fight for the enemy. And because of her indoctrination, she's unable to join her, fearing the Horde's power and influence.
You just described their relationship in the show lmao
@@screamsintothevoid9968 Lol. What I meant was they could have done it a little better.
Also, considering Catra disrespects and talks back to Shadow Weaver, and attacked Hordak, you don't really get the impression that she's a product of indoctrination. Afterall, no soldier, brain washed and indoctrinated at a young age would just casually talk back to, and attack, their superiors.
@@screamsintothevoid9968
No. They didn't.
In the Show, Catra both state and demonstrate that she knows the horde is evil.
As well as being A F*ck up @sshole herself.
What OC here said:
A Good Loyal soldier who is loyal to their group.
You are not loyal to those you consider Evil. They are at best useful to you.
Also, you do not deliberately abuse those you are loyal to.
The whole thing could have been salvaged by Adora comming out saying "you know what, I´m not just leaving the Horde, that´s just an excuse. I´m leaving you because you´re poison!"
Then Catra can be like, "okay, I can see that I´ve cultivated an unhealthy mindset. I accept that we can never be together, and I will seek out the help I need".
And boom! The show has a point and a reason for existing. Yay!
Catra is a "scary character" who could have been a good Shakespearean-style villain if she was intentionally written as such instead of a “sympathetic villain” or a “girl boss”.
Reminds me a little of Chloe from the game Life is Strange
I still can't believe how certain fans would defend Catra's behaviour till the very end, going as far as saying "but Adora DID abandon her" O___O
It was incredibly uncomfortable for me to watch Catra and She-ra become a couple.After the way she treated her it's so disturbing how the writers went along with this ship.Catra really needed a role model but most of the older characters in this show are either incompetent or evil or a mix of both and were in no position to guide Catra and help her with her obsessions and self destructive tendencies.How some people can look at her and compare her "redemption arc" to Zuko's is a joke.
Cartra feels like the power fantasy of someone who wants to be the bully but still deserve a happy ending, so they throw on halfbaked reasons for redemption.
Catradora is literally Noelle Stevenson's own relationship glorified in the show.
@@Xanegoh Sad and true, the whole "stay" line is just plain manipulation dressed up as being romantic.
When you learn who Catra is based on, it'll make a whole lot of sense.
@@Xanegoh Yeah, it's like she's saying "I'm being abused by my spouse/significant other, but it's okay, this is how relationships should be. How dare you say anything bad about our Relationship!"
Noelle's decision to write a show (and claiming it to be a Kid's show, I might add) just to justify her bad decisions and choices is seriously messed up.
Even if it's true that Noelle Stevenson had an abusive relationship, that does not mean that she has to defend her abuser's actions, if anything she's not only damaging her reputation but that of others in similar situations as her. Not to mention she's grooming an entire new generation of people to share her terrible views and beliefs.
It 1:41 am here and I don't care. Excellent video and I love it. You pointed out the red flag that Catra was showing.
The most scariest thing about Catra's possessive behaviour is how it actually mirror to a character called Wendy in a game called Rule Of Rose, and she's like 10. The main character, Jenifer, who was like a child at the time, had this very close friendship or possible romantic relationship with Wendy. Wendy asked Jenifer to promised her that they would always be together forever. Jenifer agreed. But Wendy was very easily sick so she couldn't play with Jenifer a lot, and had to be inside her room most of the time. Jenifer would found a puppy who she called Brown. Jenifer started hanging out with Brown more over time, Wendy grew jealous and obsessive. Wendy hated Brown because the puppy was stealing Jenifer away. She only see Jenifer as a possession in this sick love she has. Wendy even got the entire orphanage kids to bullied Jenifer, made her entire life a living hell because Jenifer prefer to play with Brown over her, that Jenifer didn't know any better, and that Wendy was justified in abusing Jenifer. Wendy got more frustrated over time that Jenifer won't yield. Wendy did a very horrible act in spite of Jenifer, to make her see that she need Wendy. I won't say it cause spoiler to the game and it very messed up. Recommended RagnarRox cover on Rule Of Rose as he explained it very detail on the abuse of power, toxic relationship, mentor abuse of power. Be warned it very dark.
It mirror exactly how Catra didn't want Adora to have any friends, how she would hurt her because she didn't do what she wanted. And she would continued to hurt her because she's justified in doing it. Because Adora left Catra, just as Jenifer broke her promise to stay with Wendy.
Even worse than the fact that Catra is badly written....
is the fact that everyone just enables her. Adora could bust Catra's butt yet, just takes the abuse Catra lashes out. Scorpia could snap Catra in half but takes the abuse Catra lashes out. Even Loni takes the abuse. As it stands, Double Trouble is the ONLY one finally allowed to do what the others aren't - throw Catra's crap back in her face.
They should've let Loni become a physical threat and actually kick Catra's backside a few times; especially to try and get it through Catra's thick skull that rank means nothing without the physical power to enforce it.
This would've provided a believable reason for Catra's doubling down in her drive to keep going for the power grab instead of a kind hand. When Horde Prime arrives, she'd be at the top thinking that she'd never be hurt again.... only for Horde Prime to show her how easily being toppled back into the cycle of abuse actually is. This could have led to her redemption arc being about coming to terms with the fact that power alone doesn't stop the abuse; accepting that kind hand's offer and getting help to change one's situation does. Y'know; preferably to a good support group.
**Sigh** But it's always about the "could've beens" because no one in the production appeared to care so that's what it was; "uncaring".
That's what always bugged me:
Catra behaves like she's the biggest Badass on the Planet, but she lacks the Power to actually back up any of her Threats.
Sure, she's agile and a decent Manipulator, but she shouldn't be able to take on People like She-Ra, Hordak or even Tongue Lasher.
Catra is the most unthreatening Bad Guy ever.
@@johannesseyfried7933 Hehehehehe..... Lemmie introduce you to a "nice" old fella called "Captain Sky Hook"; non-antagonist of the "Space Kidettes". :D
The show actually has She-Ra (A literal goddess) struggle against a simple cat girl. The catpeople in Nu-Ra don't have magic and Catra doesn't turn into a panther like in the original so it's just weird.
Can't have the showrunner's OC look bad, even she is terrible.
She even took down a gang in the crimson waste by herself when she shouldn't and became their leader.
Catra: *literally scratches Octavia's eye out*
Adora: Nice prank, bro.
I know kids can be really mean unintentionally sometimes but wtf made the writers think this wouldn't make Catra look like a psycho?
But she has a sad backstory and she’s a lesbian so you have to accept it.
@@cartoonking1789 You got a point, pal.
Guess I'll just be like everyone else in the show and forget Catra almost destroyed reality itself out of pettiness.
@@lightnight1481 Yeah but she totally made up for be befriending Glimmer despite being the reason her Mother is as good as dead and set her free as a feeble attempt to get back in Adora’s good graces so we should forgive her universal suicidal temper tantrum, leading arms to conquer and destroy kingdom, and generally being a creepy obsessed abusive stalker to Adora. (◔_◔)
Agreed. It’s understandable that Adora is a child and doesn’t understand the ramifications of this action. But the writers sure as hell should.
Hold up, did they have Catra scratch out Octavia's eye so they could shoehorn in a reference to an Undertale character?
For those unaware, Undine from Undertale is a fish-woman warrior, who is a lesbian, and wears an eyepatch.
Another important thing to understand about mental illness is that it is harder to regain agency but not impossible. Even if her motives are understandable the fact remains that just because Catra has a mental illness does not excuse the fact that she is a person that exists on the fictional world of Etheria who makes choices that are manipulative, violent or destructive. It shows how some fans can twist Catras psychology in ways to ignore the fact that she has agency and power without responsibility while at the same time playing as if Catra is still somehow the victim. She stopped being the victim once other people who had nothing to do with her were in her crosshairs. It is mandatory that she should not only apologize but make up for the serious things she did in the show. For the best friend squad to be self righteous and saying look we can tolerate or ignore Catras past actions because we are virtuous to saving her life is both cynical and wrong. Make her own those consequences by making her be better once you save her life ( due to Catras psychological relapses) and just because she was abused is not an excuse just look at Zuko and Bojack horseman.
I hate how a sad backstory or upbringing has become a lazy way for writers to have a quick excuse for why a bad guy is now good. It is now an over used trope that people still act like is a good excuse for bad writing.
The sad thing is that it can work. But people are too lazy to actually put in effort to do so. So we end up with piss poor characters the writers expect us to like.
@@Xanegoh Then you have the people who will defend the laziness, because the creator calls detractors and critics ist and phobes.
@Jacqueline Davis Or the Rick and Morty approch. Get your fans to feel like they are smarter then other because they like the show. All because the creators of the show said that you have to be a genius to get the show.
@@travisb.honest2438 yeah it feels like more people in western entertainment are putting minorities in their stories is so no one will question it and be attacked by toxic people instead of putting work on those stories.
It also puts minorities in a bad spot depending on the type of person.
@@noahwiley2846 Yeah, most minority characters have become more of a shield than actual characters. They can be poorly written but they will just call you a racist for not loving them.
This character is pretty much the creator's attempt to excuse her own lover that cheated on her with men prior to getting married
Yeah, even if it's true that Noelle Stevenson had an abusive relationship, that does not mean that she has to defend her abuser's actions. Nor does it justify her bad decisions and choices.
It's like she's saying "I'm being abused by my spouse/significant other, but it's okay, this is how relationships should be. How dare you say anything bad about our Relationship!"
If anything she's not only damaging her reputation but that of others in similar situations as her. Further, Noelle's decision to write a show (and claiming it to be a Kid's show, I might add) just to justify her bad decisions and choices is seriously messed up is going to end up grooming an entire new generation of people to share her terrible views and beliefs, which would most likely result in them becoming victims of abuse or even abusers.
@@ChroniclerV Her lover told her to stay even after she pulled the shit of sleeping with men while Noelle has to sleep on a couch
Why do people defend this show? It's a master class is wasted potential. Its like a stick figure cartoon with non strait people in it so its wrong to criticize it. Clearly there is a market for for coming of age stories for non strait people, but they deserve better then this.
sex is not an identity
@@Steven9567 Careful you'll get cancelled :P
“Representation”
@@Steven9567 indeed
Im not surprised people defend it but I am surprised its so popular especially compared to various other shows around that are way better then it
To an abuser, their victim IS abusing them, by not doing as they wish. They cry abuse while harming someone they claim to love. It's often rooted in a need to control.
Spot on!
What's scary about this comment is that if you think about it, a lot of characters that are pushed as 'empowering' now fit this sort of mold given how much they go in to try to get their way, not because it's for the betterment of everyone but only because it's for themselves.
@@SuperCosmicMutantSquid I've been saying this about several characters. Like Harley Quinn, she's an amoral sociopath with dependency issues, but she's being push as this 'female Deadpool' which is somehow 'Feminist' and 'Empowering'. Catra is one in a long line of abusive female archetypes that have been cropping up since the 80's.
@@Slitheringpeanut it’s because they’re women and a woman can commit genocide and still get a slap on the wrist if she’s portrayed as sympathetic enough.
@@cartoonking1789 Yeap, sadly.
Even though we understand Catra's reason it's still unacceptable. We shouldn't give her a pass for destroying kingdoms, possibly killing hundreds of people, tormenting's everybody around her, harassing Adora, and killing Angella just because she was abused. Catra need to accept all the bad things she did and not lump the all into one apology to one person, the only good apology she did was with Entrapta and it was nice but everybody else had to just deal with her because Adora said so.
The writers of this show need to understand that a backstory explains the motives of the characters but it doesn't excuse them
There was a very good Mass Effect Fanfic, "Morinth and Samara", that really made me *feel* for Morinth.
She's not evil. She didn't *choose* the Ability to kill her Partners via S*x, it's just something that's out of her control.
At first, she tries to control it and even find some kind of Cure against this Ardat Yakshi Curse....but eventually, Morinth gives in.
I felt bad for this psychic Vampire!
However....as the Story went on, Morinth became more and more dangerous, killing People, corrupting a peaceful Asari Colony and sending them to their Death just so she could escape from her Mother, ruining the Lives of others.....
Morinth was a tragic Character.
However, she still needed to be stopped. 500 years of killing People cannot go unpunished.
If Doctor Heinz Doofenshmirtz can have a downright horrid childhood (seriously, if your parents don’t even show up to your birth, forget your birthday, neglect you because of your brother, AND force you to be a lawn gnome, you had it rough) AND still be a sympathetic character, then it really shows how badly They-Rx 2018 (She-Ra 2018) messed up.
Also, Doof had a better redemption arc than Catra.
The writers are very likely going to retcon everything and claim that "no one actually kicked the bucket because that's too edgy for a kids' show", despite Stevenson saying that "The show would address mature issues such as discrimination and genocide"
The only discrimination that was shown onscreen was Bow being snappy at Netossa and Spinerella and with his parents.
I do agree that Catra shouldn't get a free pass but Shadow Weaver still play a part in this she treated Catra so horribly how do you think Catra became like this I am one of those people that feels bad for her
I just didn't understand why they got together. Catra needs therapy and connections. I don't think romantic connections are the answer.
This I actually agree with. I...like the Catradora ship. But I like what it _could_ be. Like, that flash forward Adora had? That. I think being friends with Adora is fine as Catra learns and grows but having Adora essentially be a crutch is something she would need to learn to move away from.
I can’t believe that former Queen is STILL trapped in the void, while the best friend squad let her get away with this. What kind of message does that send to the audience???
And I also don’t how very forgiving they are, like??? ... I get that forgiveness is important, but when it comes to situations like THIS? There needs to be some limits and putting your foot down.
I have a feeling that Angela was supposed to die since the show never acted nor bothered to get her back, no matter what the fans think. Not even at the end. That makes everything season 4 onward worse. Catra killed Angela, Glimmer blamed Adora for her death despite it was Glimmers's idea to go the Crimson Waste without telling anyone, a place where Angela didn't want her to go. Adora, being the resident gaslit mutt that she is, takes this, doesn't bother to say it was Glimmer's fault the whole time, and went steady her abuser who killed her "surrogate mom" (Angela and Adora didn't have much screen time together).
If Nu ra did have a movie, I doubt it would involve getting Angela back. The show only cared like 4 times with not much vengeance
@@Saltedroastedcaramel if they had a movie it be more shipping fuel.
Great analysis of Catra and the flaws surrounding her and her story! Looking forward to more! 👍
13:02 Going off of Hordak choosing to favor her and back to my idea of using this opportunity to corrupt her, maybe giving her that promotion could have been Hordak separating Catra from the rest of the Horde kids by making her their superior, i.e. better than them, thus ensuring that Hordak is the only one Catra can rely on and cut off one more possible positive outlet for Catra.
Catra was terrible as a character and boring as a villain. She could have been a decent villain if they didn't try so hard to make her seem likable, especially since every attempt just showed that she's a worse person than we initially believed, and if they gave her something to be able to properly hold her own against She-Ra in a battle and I don't get why they didn't do this it's not like they didn't have anything to work off of they had her battle cat form. Catra could have been a compelling foe but they kept trying to cover it up so there can be a ship in the end and it just ruins her potential as an antagonist and ruins her as a character.
They put too much focus on her and wanted her to be everything, so she ended up being nothing.
That does sound uninteresting with her always losing and her abuse on others beneath her.
My hero academy had villains that match the heroes and they sometimes succeed with there plans. There also interesting as character and how some of them interact with the main characters is interesting.
Re zero has an interesting main character that sometimes work past his personal problems while with a character that's stronger then him. He fails a lot but stays alive of his ability. In this instance the character is facing against someone stronger then him and when he figures out a to defeat him, it feels satisfying.
Catra was likable when she was evil
It would be way better if they just didn’t have the preexisting relationship between Catra and Adora. Then her obsession with Adora as the only kind person in her life would make more sense and the brainwashing would be more complete.
And at least not make Catra look like a psychotic hose beast. She attacked two people as a kid for petty reasons.
I think it would have been better if they’d taken a page from Jem and had Catra initially think Adora and She-Ra were different people and that She-Ra had kidnapped or killed her friend. Possibly thrown in a scene of the hoard kids learning about She-Ra, a legendary warrior who seeks to destroy their world. Then Catra would have had a legitimate reason for hating She-Ra and would have initially felt betrayed by finding out that She-Ra was really Adora, before finally deciding that reconnecting with her friend meant more to her than fighting her enemy.
Who's jem?
@@noahwiley2846 She’s from an 80s TV show. It’s about a woman named Jerrica masquerading as a rock star named Jem and part of the drama comes from Jerrica liking a boy who is torn between loving his girlfriend Jerrica and his crush on Jem without knowing they’re the same person.
@@cathygrandstaff1957 ah I see, that does sound interesting.
Catra pretty did see them as different people though. To her, the sword, and by extension She Ra, are what took Adora away. I mean, I guess that's different from outright believing they're two different people but Catra still saw it that way from what I recall.
The fact that people defend this horrible character's heinous actions and such a toxic ship with such unbridled gusto and fervour to the point of bullying others just for simply disagreeing is really telling of how delusional they are. They're no different to the idiots who slobber after bad boys with the whole "I can change him, momma!" mindset. Also, the fact people think her redemption is deserving and somehow better than that of characters like Zuko from ATLA is a total sham and an insult to any person with half a brain.
Showrunners behind Zuko actually pushed his redemption back because he still needed some growth. Catra's "redemption" just makes her look like an opportunist that hit a dead-end rather than someone who actually regrets her past actions.
@@CoolG97 That just exemplifies the writing ability of the writers in ATLA and the ones in Nu-Ra even more. The ATLA writers knew Zuko needed to grow because they didn't see him as a self-insert for self-therapy, but an actual character who needed growth. Catra meanwhile, is just a self-insert for adults who clearly haven't grown up and want validation instead of facing reality.
@@maskedblanks7774 Nu-Ra's writers are from fanfics, where character "development" begins and ends with romance no matter how unnecessary or toxic the pairing is. Also, they are more prone to living in echo chambers.
The reason Katra was bullying others because she was a victim of abuse I said it before it doesn't excuse all her action but a lot of people seems to forget or don't care that shadow Weaver was a monster the way she treated a girl was Unforgivable no wonder catra became messed up in the head. And I also agree Zuko from Avatar The Last Airbender had the best Redemption heart of any character
@@animezilla4486
I understand your point, but that only works as a justification to a certain extent.
Eventually it becomes all Catra's own doing, and I personally feel like when she tried to destroy all of reality out of spite for Adora was when she crossed that line of evilness where there's no real coming back.
If an abused child grows up to become an abuser because of that, they are still just as much an abuser and just as guilty for their own actions.
Catra's actions are still her own, and I don't think being hurt should ever be an excuse to hurt others the way Catra did.
But that's just my opinion.
Throughout your recap of the show, a single thought permeated my mind: “I could do a better job than her”, and I believe I’m not the only one. In fact…
By her do you mean Noelle?
Friends and support groups can be great! They can inspire personal growth. But with issues THIS severe - ie severe abuse and emotionally stunted growth...holy heck friends cannot be the only answer. You can't just demand "oh hey, Character C is a victim of abuse who is now abusing others...and even though they are extremely violent, toxic, selfish and unkind to everyone around them....the best way to fix it is to offer them a victim to abuse again and expecting them to just...be friends, but better this time." It isn't healthy or helpful to anyone...
I think it's really interesting that they created a character like Catra and characterized her in such a vile way considering that the creator has such a similarly toxic relationship with her own spouse. You'd think she'd do her best to depict a way to prevent this kind of relationship, but instead she decided to project...
What happened between Noelle and her spouse?
@@BNK2442 There's an explanation for that on her memoir.
@@BNK2442 well for one they tried to have an open relationship at one point but Noelle's wife who was still their girlfriend at the time had sex with a guy in their bed room while Noelle slept on the couch and they really got hurt by that even tho they were in an open relationship at a time at least this is the thing that i heard if anyone reading this knows more feel free to fact check but this is what i've been told happened
@@thedwgk3969 so basically Noelle is Catra? No wonder why her character and the rest of the writing sucks.
@@orionbelt4013 And, she's entitled.
Yessss I've been waiting for this for so long!
Man, I'll admit it, I liked season 1/early Catra. She was sly and cunning, but clearly had her issues, but man the writers just HAD to force the ship between her and Adora and it's a shame because there WAS potential for this character if she remained single character. But nope, got to ship like it's no tomorrow! (sarcasm)
It pains me to talk about Catra because when all the other characters were just bland or boring stereotypes, she actually had the most interesting backstory, but the writers almost NEVER use it for anything. And if it is brought up, it's constantly hindered by AWFUL writing to justify her stupid and abusive behavior. I wish more people would point out how much wasted potential this character had. Great video! Looking forward to part 2!
When do think the character went down hill?
@@noahwiley2846 Probably the episode where she was sent to the Crimson wastes.
Oh yeah hands down season 1 catra was interesting and i really wish they went down the path of making her a villain to Adora but not to the universal extent that they did. That whole " this is all your fault adora" got very old and kinda toxic quickly once the theme of abuse was further emphasized.
A lot of these characters are the epitome of wasted potential; especially catra who did get my attention at first
@@tinkywinky5558 I mean if they didn’t make her go worse than the Battle of Bright Moon and at S3 stays in the Crimson Wastes could have worked better.
If you guys want a way better written version of Catra then watch Amphibia, Sasha Waybright is basically Catra done right
Sasha actually believes she is helping her friends.
Catra just wants Adora to either make suffer or only follow her orders.
@@CoolG97 also unlike Catra, Sasha character got challenged in a believeable way that shapes her
Yeah Sasha Waybright really is Catra but written WAY better!!
@@ValenArtsAnimation And I genuinely start feeling sad for her even after her bad decisions and she still has a genuine (though somewhat toxic) friendship with Grime. They’re a duo that when they appear on screen is just pure gold for me.
@@toadlord8594 And Marcie is Entrapta but better realized.
Catra is a character who thinks she's a victim written by those who think they aren't abusers.
The woman that created the shera reboot is bi-polar I don't think she gets how non bi-polar people think.
...damn
Which leads to the show showing us one thing but telling us it’s another thing.
that's quite an accusation though, isn't it?
@@pinxelated2799 yep, doesn't mean its not true though.
I think a big reason why people like catra is because ✨ gay ✨
That's a stupid reason
@@nono-hy7gb "BuT We'Re StArViNg FoR rEpReSeNtAtIoN!1!1!1!"
@@Saltedroastedcaramel Sp starving that they’ll eat toxic waste and mewl about how “amazing” it is.
That is the exact reason unfortunately. To the point a lot of the "Stans" can't even remember most of the show up until the kiss itself at the end.
@@DarkXaero999 And they'll forget this show exist.
I would actually love a solid hour+ of just listening to you two wonderful women talk about these things :D
Catra's "redemption arc" felt unearned and rushed, even in the end she said "Please, just this once, stay!", implying that she still believed that Adora left her and is still acting like the victim
Exactly!
Her "arc" was feeling guilty for an episode and a half before going back to her original personality only now she is on the "good" side. She still thinks she's right after all the trouble she caused.
@@CoolG97 that does sound messed up, they say she changed but still hold adora as in the wrong meaning her views have not changed.
@@noahwiley2846 Adora literally had the weight of the world on her chest and Catra was just "What about meeeeeee.".
Spot on.
If they wanted to make Catra more sympathetic, then I think one way would be to change her motivation for attacking Loney in the flashback. Instead of doing it because she was jealous, she did it because she realized that Shadow Weaver's threat to her could apply to any of the other Horde kids if Adora gets too close to them, so Catra acts abrasive and doesn't let Adora be closer to any of the other kids in order to shield them from Shadow Weaver's ire.
One of the main problems of the show is that it was trying to be "complicated" rather than "complex". It has a lot of individual plots, characters, themes, etc thrown in, but hardly any of it connects in a logical way or to give the story more depth. This is what my rewrite idea is going for; connecting the scene where Shadow Weaver threatens Catra with the scene where Catra pushes away the other Horde kids. There are other changes that could be made, of course, but this is the first that popped into my head.
The show’s ideas and characters seem to be a mishmash of different shows all put together with no thought.
That sounds like the same problem rwby has.
That sounds way better than Catra motive in the show ngl
Not only does it make Catra more sympathetic but it also connected to the previous flashback scene with Shadow Weaver
@@noahwiley2846 Someone actually made a connection between the two shows.
Here's a link to his video:
ua-cam.com/video/X-lhDhGeSgM/v-deo.html
Go to time 18:48 of the video to see the connection.
The major issue with Catra is that we are supposed to feel sympathetic toward her but shoe does NOTHING to truly earn that sympathy.
She just chooses to blame everyone else and not take any responsibility for her own actions.
Exactly.
Someone who had changed would have looked back at her past actions with more regret rather then continued to enforce it.
@@noahwiley2846 Agreed
I miss the catra that had ambition but still had compassion for the people that hurt her
The fact that Octavia doesn’t seem upset that she lost her eye to a six year old throwing a tantrum further shows what a villain-Sue creator’s pet she is.
Villain sue? That's something I've haven't heard before.
@@noahwiley2846 Basically a villainous Mary-Sue.
In reality Octavia would've reached Adora and Catra running, then grabbing Catra and maybe scratching her eye as well. Because Octavia is so big with wider steps compared to these children.
I do like Catra but I do feel that there is an entire season of episodes of She-ra missing that was supposed to focus on or begin Catra’s redemption arc. Like the episode of Avatar “Zuko Alone” is a great episode and shows that Zuko is a good guy and is capable of doing good things and is not all evil. We get no such episodes with Catra, we’re all just supposed to forgive her in the end despite her character never changing from the spoiled, selfish, angry little brat, and I can say the same for Glimmer who is also word for word a spoiled, selfish, angry little brat or other B word that rhymes with witch.
The potential for redemption was there, you have the beginning and you have the ending, but the middle is missing. It’s almost as if production got word that the show was going to be canceled and they rushed everything just to tie up lose ends while sacrificing character development and leaving behind so many plot holes that it is evident that there was an entire season missing. Like Mara and Angelica.
I mean, if you think there is any way to make Catra, or in fact this entire show, any good and to make any sense, then a lot of editing would need to be done; would you think that Catra’s journey toward redemption would better put forward if the two part episode of her turning on the universe altering device be omitted? So, you watch the show but when you get to the two part episode, skip it and continue on; what effect would that have on your opinion of Catra?
Now granted there is still a lot more missing that would add to anything resembling character development in every episode of She-ra, but at least to is a start.
Unfortunately there's no season for that. Any actual chance of redeeming Catra was wasted
@@Saltedroastedcaramel Exactly and lets not forget that Noelle had 52 episodes upfront to provide that and still squandered it. Even with another writer brought in to fix some of her mistakes.
@@DarkXaero999 52?!
@@lavenderplace8591 Yup
@@DarkXaero999 🤦♀
Thanks for the videos you guys are my favourite UA-camrs and your videos always cheer me up
“Come on! I was abused as a child and I’m a lesbian, that makes it okay for me to do all those awful things! Come on guys!”
I have legit met people who use past abuse and status to justify their horrible behavior. Worse was when they made me friend cry because she was dating a friend of the group and they “perceived” she hated people with autism (he was medically on the spectrum), and they tried spreading rumors about her.
I told the couple straight up what was happening and he confronted them and told them to heck off with that nonsense. Only one or two actually apologized to her, the rest said things like “oh, well I thought I saw signs she was abusing you” or “she reminded me of this jerk I knew back home” and worse “it was just a joke anyway, and she’s not good enough for you.”
People who would complain for hours about being bullied, picked on, and disliked for being “x represented” dogging on a sweet girl who hates swearing and confrontation, much less being an abuser. I distanced myself from them right afterwards.
@@jendoe9436 wow that's not right, people shouldn't jump the gun like that.
Catra, Also Known As; One of Noelle's OCs with a skinsuit of a character from She-Ra to show the one that got away how she really needs her.
Catra is a classic abuser. She attacks and belittles Adora and then when she tries to leave the environment, Catra is somehow the victim and not at fault because it was Adora who made her do those awful things until she realizes her faults and tries to make her come back to her - and she ends up being rewarded for her actions.
I thought Catra was Noelle’s girlfriend but either way this show was just her tumblr vent about the stupid people in high school getting dunked on while her characters come out smelling like roses.
I've seen abuse storylines done better in my hero academia, princess principal, and Zatch bell. They had more realistic characters and the people who got abused and some of the abusers had more realistic chooses.
Actually Catra is based off of Noelle’s wife. Adora is Noelles self insert
@@hodzal5258 that sounds like a cry for help
I'd be interested in seeing how Stevenson treats her wife honestly.
I do hate that I thought Catra was constantly trying to gaslight Adora.
She was
The problem this show and a lot of entertainment has is thinking every person’s actions should be forgiven and the injured party should let the abuser back in their live.
While yes, forgiveness is letting go of anger, resentment, frustration, etc against someone who hurt them, that’s actually where forgiveness ends. The victim tells their perpetrator they no longer hold negative traits towards them, and the victim is free to move on with their lives without looking back.
What creators seem to want nowadays is mercy, which does deal with forgiveness but is kind of an extra step where one person helps the other be better. The main difference is mercy involves the victim and perpetrator assisting each other to right those wrongs.
However, if the victim is continually being abused and the perpetrator has no intentions of bettering themselves, then the victim does have every right to separate themselves from the toxic relationship. Both parties can be hurt by abuse, but when one doesn’t want to do better and focuses on their own desires over the other’s then mercy isn’t being offered. What’s happening is the cycle of abuse is continued and the forgiveness being offered actually isn’t there as the victim has trouble accurately processing what is actually happening. Thus affecting the virtue of forgiveness itself.
The best thing the writers could have done what have Catra survive this, and Adora declining any further contact with her. That way she can more accurately process her own feelings about her past, come to an independent opinion about Catra, and give Catra that chance to better herself as well.
As it is, this show pretty much states a victim of past abuse must always have their actions forgiven and the abused needs to stick around so the abuser feels better. It’s a horrible, toxic message that just makes me depressed and disgusted thinking about it 😔🤢
The whole relationship is just Noelle and her wife. She went back to her after the wife cheated and 'convinced' her to stay and the entire show is her trying to validate that she made the 'right' choice.
@@SuperCosmicMutantSquid yea, that's what I've heard from various articles and people. It's quite depressing to hear as even though I find Noelle's work mediocre and have opinions about her personal life, I never wish anyone to remain in horrible situations. Both of them need actual therapy and a bunch of self-reflection, but I have a sinking feeling the 'Community' will never let either of them better themselves by separating.
@@jendoe9436 Considering no one called that shit out before, apparently not.
@@SuperCosmicMutantSquid Yeah, Even if it's true that Noelle Stevenson had an abusive relationship, that does not mean that she has to defend her abuser's actions. Nor does it justify her bad decisions and choices.
It's like she's saying "I'm being abused by my spouse/significant other, but it's okay, this is how relationships should be. How dare you say anything bad about our Relationship!"
If anything she's not only damaging her reputation but that of others in similar situations as her. Further, Noelle's decision to write a show (and claiming it to be a Kid's show, I might add) just to justify her bad decisions and choices is seriously messed up is going to end up grooming an entire new generation of people to share her terrible views and beliefs, which would most likely result in them becoming victims of abuse or even abusers.
You made an interesting argument, I never heard this distinction between mercy and forgiveness.
I think these shows might petray that.
My hero academia
Princess principal
I dislike Catra’s supposed redemption arc. I would argue that she was never redeemed.
Yeah the main problem with her supposed “redemption arc” is that when it came to it and say zuko’s redemption arc, when he made the bad choices/became more of a villain it was treated as something wrong by the show while in she-ra when catra became more villainous they treated it as something cool or good so we don’t treat it as a proper redemption arc because they don’t care about actually seeing the errors of her ways. Additionally zuko had to gain the trust of each teammate personally by helping them get closure, save family etc. and not just well you say you’re good now so let’s ignore your past cruelty
i would have rather that she be a stubborn and bitter villain that goes down with the ship
In the end she said "Please, just this once, stay!", implying that she still believed that Adora left her and is still acting like the victim.
At that point, the only way she could have been redeemed is with self sacrifice. She doesn't deserve a happy ending after she nearly erased the world.
I saw worst, to be fair. Aham Vegeta Aham
I actually think it's was all goes back to the writers and the show runner. Noelle Stevenson has said that she never watched the series as a child only played with the toys. This really comes out when she said in an interview that "She-Ra was nothing but He-Man's sidekick in the original." I don't know why the right holders have people like this do the series instead of talented creators who have much love the source material.
This show was just Noelle’s fanfiction therapy.
@@cartoonking1789 I want to say you are joking, but then I remember she admitted to it on Twitter.
@@Guciom You could feel it in the writing.
They tried that with Voltron and people just wined about it
@@cartoonking1789 It's strange she didn't mention the church or holy spirit in her show.
So glad to see the Catra breakdown train starting up, and the fact that it's split into multiple parts means that there's gotta be a lot wrong with Catra.
On the premise of this video, with Catra breaking her promise with Adora rather than the other way around, I find that it reflects the broken promises of Catra and Adora being the big central relationship. All the audience is given is a beginning and an end to the journey, but not the journey itself. Instead, the audience is made to accept that Catra has supposedly "changed" when we never see her become that better person.
More than that, some people in this comment section noted that she has no good traits that the audience can grasp onto. In fact, it seems that Catra is defined purely by the darker parts of her nature, being an obsessive and extremely violent monster willing to hurt or even kill the person she "loves" to get what she wants. Catra has no compassion, loyalty, care, or any trait that could show the good within her. While this is already bad, it's compounded by Adora effectively ignoring or excusing these issues, effectively enabling Catra despite knowing better and denying any responsibility Catra had for her actions.
Speaking of responsibility, Catra herself takes close to no responsibility for her own actions. She doesn't take responsibility for hurting Adora, killing Angella, and conquering the world for the Horde. Instead, it's brushed off as "Well she was abused by Shadow Weaver" or "Adora abandoned her" or "she did that one good thing to save Glimmer". Catra is never brought to bear for her actions, and as such, she never learns or changes despite being told that she does.
In the end, without the time to flesh her out, Catra is nothing more than a monster.
The problem is they tried to merge the" tsundere" archetype with the "yandere" archetype.
However not only did the writers not seem to realize why people like these type of the characters, but that there is one point were these points de-verge;
Tsundere's eventually get better, Yandere's get 'worse'
Basically the writers think she's Meg from "Hercules" when really she's Judge Claude Frollo from "Hunchback of Norte Dame"
This!
@Jacqueline Davis he also had a really good singing voice, presence, and style, something Catra can barely dream of.
I think todara is good example of a tsundari character.
I think Catra’s issues come from the fact she’s a creator’s pet. She’s not just the main antagonist, she particularly the only antagonist. Shadow Weaver, her abusive Mother-figure is taken out with relative ease and she doesn’t really interact with her, we’re supposed to see this woman as a force for Catra to overcome but she does it so quickly and easily.
Hordack is locked in his lab so much that he has no interactions with the heroes, his small interactions with Catra portrays him as ruthless and uncaring. He gets some character given to him when he bounds with Entrapta and they become discount Beauty and the Beast but she is the only character he has any real connection with. When Hordack is going to kill Catra her plot armor activities and she talks him out of killing and then later defeats him TWICE. THE. SAME. WAY. BOTH. TIMES. and takes over the horde.
When we get to Horde Prime we have spent more time establishing Catra as the main villain and competent force in the show so not only do we not really get a feel for him as a character he doesn’t leave much of an impact. He’s there to be a stand in for Noelle Stevenson’s Hatred of religion and like most things in this show it feels like a teenager complaining on their “live-blog” than it does a actual look at religion. Plus when he usurps control from Catra it feels less like a natural evolution of things and more of the crew wanting Adora and Catra to end up together and Prime was the conflict killer.
The show wants Catra to be a “tragic misunderstood character” but it also wants her to be a “badass girl boss who is a master manipulator” and you can’t have a character who is both, especially when Catra is neither of these things separately. Every “tragedy” is her own fault but she still acts like the victim and pushes others away, then acts hurt when she’s left alone. I can’t feel sympathy for someone who not only willingly runs into on coming traffic but does it multiple times and then tries to blame the driver, no matter how much of a “terrible childhood” they had. Every victory felt unearned, because it wasn’t because Catra was a badass who had skills to pay the bills, it was because the characters were stupid and the plot needed her to succeed. Characters would make decisions that they would logically never make and the story would bend over backwards to accommodate her.
Noelle Stevenson clearly has mommy issues, on top of her hatred of anything male and her desperate cry for help, being stuck in an abusive lesbian relationship. Don't kid yourself, this isn't anything more than a luridly pornographic depiction of her own life with the She-Ra name slapped on it.
Shame cause Catra could be phenomenal if her tragic character could be handled better.
Would love to hear some ideas on how to rewrite this type of character better cause I have been slowly thinking about writing out my own OC Hardened Mean girlboss character. But with a genuine soft spot for the small group of friends she cares about for time now.
Only she’s the main protagonist and slowly develops into a better person after eventually realizing her past shitty behavior and wants to atone.
@@toadlord8594 If I was writing her I’d have more characters react to her unhinged toxic behavior, which would cause her to hate the world more and do more awful things. Have her go full Azula and alienate herself due to her vicious behavior and realize by the time she’s in over her head be in too deep and is defeated along with Horde Prime.
And people said that she's like Zuko...We live in a clown society indeed.
What do you mean? My favorite part of Avatar was when Zuko was willing to burn down the entirety of Ba Sing Se - including his uncle - in order to catch Aang. You just don't get it!
...
Joking aside, Catra WISHES she could even hold a small spark of flame to Zuko.
Zuko is the gold standard on how to do violin redemption arcs.
-He doesn't go over the line by outright killing or permanently maiming characters
-Only does bad things because of the situation he's forced into
-His change in character is slow & gradual enough to make mistakes and learn from them.
-He had someone patient & wise to keep him on the right track, no matter what.
That scene with his father during the eclipse was the culmination of his character development since season 1 up to what he's learned from that whole experience which is what made it so satisfying.
Oh, not to mention that when he does become a good guy they don't immediately accept him, they acknowledge all the bad stuff he did. In the end they let him join because Aang really needed a firebending teacher & it takes a while for the group to warm up to him.
@@Redx500 Have any constructive criticism on how Catra’s Villain arc and redemption arc could be better done? Cause the character concept of Catra sounds genuinely interesting to me personally but wish it was done better.
@@toadlord8594 Nah, I'm not really a writer so I sadly can't specifically point out parts of the story they should change
I think the biggest reason why Catra's redemption feels so unearned is that she had very few redeemable traits to begin with. In the first season alone she's violent, cruel, mean spirited, possessive, power hungry, rage filled, arrogant, self centered, and just flat out sadistic sometimes. The show writers seemed like they wanted their cake and eat it too, they wanted her to be a quip throwing, mocking, threatening, power mad villain who enjoyed her villainy inside and out. And a deep, complex, abuse victim who just needs genuine love to break away from her darker nature. But they didn't give her enough good traits to make us want that redemption, no honor, loyalty, compassion, anything. Catra was kind of a bad person at the start, got worse in the middle, was about to go on doing what she did until Horde Prime showed up and she awkwardly just joined the other side. With seemingly more reluctance and out of her utter obsession with Adora than out of any self-reflection. Also the rapidness the other characters just accept the person who torched one of the princess' cities, nearly destroyed the world out of her own self interest, and willingly stayed with an evil regime for the sake of obtaining power is just comical. Catra could have been a great villain, but the writers didn't understand how to make someone evil but redeemable, it isn't easy to do and this is just one example of how poorly it can go.
Yeah I agree I honestly see nothing likable about Catra and yet her fanbase is huge for some reason I don't understand
@@stevensteviepryde5888 I think a large part of her fanbase projects themselves on to Catra, that they’re justified because the show portrays her a justified.
@@cartoonking1789 that's also probably the reason for why current western writers are writing these characters.
@@noahwiley2846 They can’t make heroes so they make petty assholes
@@noahwiley2846 can you name a few examples just genuinely want to know
And this is what people call good LGBT representation? Wow, just wow.
@Rufus Mcdowell Q force?
@@hodzal5258 nah Qforce was actually good and INTENTIONALLY MADE TO BE CRINGEY...This was somehow meant to be seen as healthy and progressive but came off the complete opposite
I hated what they did with her. Catra and Hordak don't deserve redemption, they haven't even done half of what they should have done to start redeeming their crimes or attitudes.
She caused most of her own suffering and hurt many on the way, and hasn't changed fundamentally since the start. For all we know she could can go back to be the abussive and manipulative person she started as.
Wait hordak gets redeemed? I haven't watched the show, just watching videos and reading posts recently.
@@noahwiley2846 They make it seem like he and Adora had a Father daughter relationship out of nowhere and he gets with Entrapta.
One if the characters even ask if everyone is ok with letting him just go like it was nothing.
@@davidgusquiloor2665 and what did the other characters say?
@@noahwiley2846 No if anything they made Hordak come across as irredeemable as Catra.
@@davidgusquiloor2665 Hordak may not have done enough to receive redemption, but I think Catra helping Adora to save the universe from Horde prime is enough for redemption, or at the very least puts Catra on the path of redemption.
I think something that would have been an improvement for Catra would be have it that she believes in a sort of "might makes right" mentality due to how she was raised in her childhood, she believes the Horde would be the rightful rulers of Etheria due to the fact they were strong enough to defeat the kingdoms. How the Horde was able to conquer Etheria when we only see about twenty people in it, tops.
Honestly, if the show ended with season 3, I wouldn't be nearly as harsh on this show since it ended with Adora basically saying she's done with Catra's abusive crap. Sadly, the later seasons have them get back together due to the writers shipping them.
Also, and I hate to nitpick, but there is a difference between jealousy and envy. Jealousy is when your worry what you have will be taken, while envy is wanting what someone else has. Basically, Shadow Weaver was envious of young Adora while Catra jealous of Lonnie and the other Horde kids because she thought they'd take Adora away from her.
If she had kept to her word and viewed Catra as an enemy the show would have been better.
All this showed is how abusive and manipulative Catra was, nothing she ever did was 'redemptive'. It wasn't rushed, it was non-existent. Anyone who think that Catra is a 'good character' are disturbing to me.
Well because cat. 🐈
Well Shadow Weaver was the reason Catra became like this in the first place she was never treated right as a child wow you said her Redemption was non-existing I don't agree with that
@@animezilla4486 Its suppose to not be there, Noelle said that season 5 is the start of her redemption only.
@@animezilla4486 No, Shadow Weaver was not the cause, she just pushed. Catra was always broken, most psychopaths are.
@@Slitheringpeanut that's not true shadow weaver was the cause she favors adora because of the power treated catra like a worm Shadow Weaver said those awful things to a child even threatened to harm her do you really think that wouldn't make Catra the way she is today so in my opinion Shadow Weaver did more than just push her
It's clear that the writers wanted to create another Zuko but created another Azula instead
Don't do my girl azula like that lmao
Zuko redemption ark was amazing and handled amazing and catra ark wasn't really good because she keep blaming others people instead owed up to it herself and it felt rushed
This whole relationship is a big old 'i can fix them'. Dont cut out the toxic person in your life, just takr responsibility for all their bad behavior and one day they will be better.
Wow, yeah noo
At first, I thought I related to Catra, but viewing reviews like yours, she just is too abusive, and I never been hurt like her (can't imagine). Yeah, her redemption did feel quick towards the end, because how she's the villain most of the series, how she is turning down Adora's offer, how she takes power too her advantage and how she treats enemies, allies, and Adora (her so called "love interest) shouldn't be make up after ONE FINAL season.
Catra: I don't want to leave. What don't you understand about that?
Critical thinkers: Why you'd want to stay in a toxic, dangerous environment with your life-long abuser.
Perhaps the most toxic, abusive character ever put on screen.
Very believable (and disturbing) that Catra is Stevensons' self insert.
Stevenson's wife. Adora and Glimmer are Stevenson's self inserts
@@Saltedroastedcaramel If that's the case then.... yikes!
Between her and Bakugo Katsuki from MHA it makes me wonder why these storytellers like abusers.
I wouldn't even call them friends. The whole idea of the Hoard was that they were child soldiers so it comes off that Catra only stuck around Adora due to the 'projection' she provided, rendering her a weapon, an OBJECT to use and because of how empty headed and spineless Adora is throughout the series, she just takes it without having the ability to see past it because she's that desperate for 'companionship' she doesn't fight back when it's clear that Catra is a nasty, manipulative asshole.
Adora is Catra's guard dog at the end of the day.
@@Saltedroastedcaramel ABUSED guard dog.
@@SuperCosmicMutantSquid Then when it looks like Adora is done being Catra’s punching bag, when she stands up for herself and says she won’t be Catra’s excuse to be a vindictive bitch anymore the next episode she still wants to go back and help Catra, despite her being a toxic waste pool.
That's an interesting view on there relationship.
It’s funny how people say Horde Prime is irredeemably evil because he takes away others will but fail to mention that Catra did the EXACT. SAME. THING. in “White Out”.
That she so how gets a free pass because she’s got a “sad backstory ™”.
Yeah, that's right! In that episode of season 2, Catra tried to use the infected First Ones tech, that Entrapta was still holding on to, to brainwash Adora and make her go "Berserk".
@@shawnwarrynn8609 And was gushing about how she’ll enjoy making her hurt her friends.
She's got a sad backstory.... and she has a Fanny. English to American translation "Fanny" = "Pussy". Ha Pussy Cat.
Wannabe Zuko
Catra was one of the most toxic, abusive, manipulative characters I've ever been "expected" to empathize with and it really took me out of the show. I kept waiting for the show to either sever the bond or to earn the redemption and the show did neither. Honestly my favorite moment in the entire series was when Adora said enough was enough and walked away from Catra. For one brief glorious moment I thought Adora was going to cut this abusive chain around her neck loose, but of course the show wouldn't let that last because shipping is everyone's happy ending right? Honestly to me that was even more unforgiveable than the fact that the primary antagonist and protagonist (Hordak and Adora) barely have any interaction at all through the entire series. I couldn't even love to hate her as a villain because the show expected us to sympathize with this inherently unsympathetic person. She was a bad villain, a bad love interest, and a bad friend, and drug the entire show down.
That does sound weird, hordak's is the villain in the original and supposed to be in this one right?
@@noahwiley2846 Yes, Although Horde Prime did take on the role of "The Big Bad", Hordak was still a major antagonist in the original She-Ra series and would frequently fight She-Ra and even He-Man from time to time.
Yet in this series Hordak and Adora barely interact with one another.
I have this big comment about what I would’ve done if I wrote Catra, hubris of me I know, but I’ll save that for the final part
Good idea
Please touch upon the fact Catra is the reason Angella is dead (or trapped between dimansions)!
Everyone seems to forget Angella sacrificed herself for Adora because Catra was being an obsessive bitch T_T
They already did a video about angella's death you can look it up if you want to
Does that ever get touched on in the show?
@@noahwiley2846 not really
@@noahwiley2846 It was never talked about. In fact, Glimmer blamed Adora for that. Nevermind it was both Catra and Glimmer, but Adora never said anything. Self inserts gets away
As long as she is super gay, she is the best character ever! Now let's all draw fanart.
I usually don’t go the triggered rout but Catra triggered me and disturbed me deeply.
I was best friends with someone for 7 years. That’s a freakin long time and guess what?
My friend turned out to be jealous of me and grew to hate me because “ my life was perfect blah blah blah”
News flash *A Ss HOLE* MY LIFE ISNT PERFECT. I HAVE SEVERAL MENTAL DISORDERS AND A MILLION HEAKTH PROBLEMS. NOT TO MENTION THE THINGS I DONT WANT TO TALK ABOUT.
Do you think this stopped my best friend of 7 years from treating me badly??? NO.
I HAD MY OWN CATRA. ITS GROSS, I WOULD NEVER WANT TO F*CKING KISS SOMEONE WHO ABUSED ME .
It disgusts me that the relationship between Catra and Adora is supposed to be “romantic”
Wow I'm sorry to hear that
She's a cartoon cat..
@@fstorms Based on an actual toxic relationship
@@fstorms and...? That can still be a trigger.
Like, im not gonna bully someone who has a trigger for murder with "Murder happens every day" like thats just gross.
I’m sure that we’re meant to feel sympathy for young Catra lashing out and hurting Adora but it just makes her look more like a possessive toxic stalker. She’s been obsessed with Adora since they were kids and has continued to hurt and scar her and SOMEHOW this is romantic?!
Those scenes were disturbing and confusing like i feel sad for adora but it seems the show wants me to feel sad for catra even though she's the one hurting others
@@usernotfound_____yet Because for some messed up reason we’re supposed to feel sorry for Catra.
I do not understand why people love this ship, it is so toxic. And yes I know what happened with Noelle and her wife and I feel sorry for her, but it's extremely irresponsible to write this kind of relationship in a children's show and have them have a sudden happy ending. As someone who's been a victim of abuse, the message that someone's abusive behavior is ok if they've been abused really upsets me
I'm sorry but I disagree with you that relationship was not toxic I wish it was written better
from what I understand it's because it's enemies to lovers and is gay
@@animezilla4486 Did you even bother to watch this video? Catradora had red flags since episode 2
Yeah, it's like she's saying "I'm being abused by my spouse/significant other, but it's okay, this is how relationships should be. How dare you say anything bad about our Relationship!"
Noelle's decision to write a show (and claiming it to be a Kid's show, I might add) just to justify her bad decisions and choices is seriously messed up.
Even if it's true that Noelle Stevenson had an abusive relationship, that does not mean that she has to defend her abuser's actions. Nor does it justify her bad decisions and choices. If anything she's not only damaging her reputation but that of others in similar situations as her. Not to mention she's grooming an entire new generation of people to share her terrible views and beliefs.
@San Shinobi I can get that. Problem is that it's a flagship relationship, it's in a progressive show and we get called homrophobix for calling it out.
The truly sad thing is that Catra was the most interesting character int he show.
This video sums up perfectly why Catadora dosn't work as intended.
Another thing I realized about Catra is since she rarely talks to other horde soldiers and those soldiers don't have the spotlight on them for the most of the time, we barely see any insight on Catra at all. Yes she is abused, but the show never determined if it was because of her attitude (since she freaking clawed a superior's eye out for no reason and attacked Adora and Lonnie out of petty jealousy as kid) or because Shadow Weaver is abusive in general. The show failed to prove S.W wrong that Catra will bring Adora down.
Hell Octiva remembers losing the eye as a found memory, in a “oh that little rascal” kind of way. It seems like even when people should not like her she still gets her ass kissed.
@@cartoonking1789 Exactly. It seems like only Lonnie and Kyle are able to talk back to her. Btw dt doesn't count.
@@Saltedroastedcaramel And despite Kyle and Lonnie talking back to her they still follow her until part 5, you think that they would have dipped out a long time ago. Hell, it’s established that most people don’t like working with Catra so you think they would have either dipped out or mutinied when she took over the first chance they got. I think DT only got away with calling Catra out because their non-binary and Noelle doesn’t want to piss off the tumblr crowd.
@@cartoonking1789 Pretty much
@@cartoonking1789 I think the only people who don't mind working with Catra are those two nameless horde kids that only appeared twice in the show. Mainly because they just stand there and don't talk
"Childhood friends" = adopted sisters
As someone who never watched the show my opinion might not be very valid but she why people have a problem with this character, the thing that strikes me as odd is as you pointed out when catra stays in the hord and leaves the person she was obsessed with.
Why does she choose power over someone she's obsessed with because from what you two point out she only cares about adora but instead of going with her she prefer to stay in a abusive environment for power.
This pacific plot line would work if wasn't that obsessed and had valid reasons for chasing power but from your first video she doesn't have that much reason to gain power to stay in a oppressed environment.
catra felt like adora betrayed her because they promised to stay together at all times. they grew up together and at that moment when adora left, catra felt like adora betrayed her. catra turned this betrayal into rage and anger and projected that onto other people by abusing them and becoming more and more power hungry. she believed that if she got more power, she would one day be better than adora and no longer need her validation. shes so obsessed with adora because she is madly in love with her, wants her back, and deep inside feels shitty for leaving her behind so she keeps coming back to her. i guess its my personal bias and view on her character, but thats how i see it.
@@purrkuri The messed up part is Adora never betrayed her. Catra betrayed Adora and the show never portrayed it was that.
Katra could have been the most interesting character in the show.Earning her way back into her friend's good graces through redemption would have been fantastic... but.... agenda, shipping and just plain sloth made that impossible.
A redemption arc is, IMO, the most satisfying of the tropes, but they can be difficult to write due to complexity.Abuse is part of a chain... break the chain and the abuse stops The problem is that without knowing why it was forged in the first place you'll always risk the chain being reforged and the cycle restarting.
This show never went into real detail about anything. It only showed events. That's lazy writing. Abuse arcs cannot be done by lazy writers. It's like teaching someone to be a marathon runner without first teaching them how to walk. They did bring in another writer to plug a few holes but it wasn't enough.
They always seemed to fall short in this iteration of She-Ra.
Her turning against Adora also felt a bit forced and somewhat out of nowhere. They made it hard to root for her as character overall :/
That part I don't understand the show shows her obsessed with adora while choosing power over her. I get why she was obsessed with adora but why she want power so bad?
@@noahwiley2846 That's a good point
I have seen some forced narratives before, but I honestly don't think that Catra turning against Adora was completely forced, nor do I think it was completely out of nowhere.
@@StareachValcin Yeah it was forced and it came out of nowhere. Especially since Catra never bothered to leave the horde despite hating how she was treated.
Catra was literally an abuser it should have just kept her as a villain and got rid of her as a way of fighting against those that abuse you... because she abused her sister/girlfriend for a long time both physically and mentally and admitted to see her as an object.
And even after all of that abuse, she had the nerve to tell Adora that she loves her, Catdora is one of the worst fictional relationships I have ever seen
Catra did not abuse Adora for a long period of time
@@animezilla4486 The duration of time isn't the issue
@@animezilla4486
That doesn't make it much better.
@@KelShu can I ask you a question I've been looking at all the comments most of them are hating Catra but no one seems to have a problem with Shadow Weaver
I would’ve been ok with them dating, IF the Catradora was actually well-written and healthy. But no, it’s the EXACT opposite! Their relationship isn’t any different from the bland, straight toxic couples from WATTPAD!!!
If Catra was so attached to Adora as they wanted to convey, she would have defected with Adora.
I mean in Catra’s perspective would it have been so easy to leave the evil abusive environment she had spent her whole life in so easily?
Even if she defected, it would probably be season one and two being spiteful towards Glimmer and Bow for “stealing” her childhood best friend and eventually she and Glimmer at least begrudgingly respect each other after some adventures.
@@toadlord8594which would have been a better plot, Bow would easily grow on her and the moment she does something cute unknowingly Bow would genuinely tease her about being cute which would make flustered distracting her from her jealousy...bonus Shadow weaver isn't there to make her feel worse and maybe she can find comfort from queen Angela who would maybe treat her like a daughter plus if she tries anything like lashing out she's surrounded by She ra Queen Angela Glimmer Bow the rest of the princesses (maybe if they are in on place) the guards etc...Oooor it would give a great opportunity for Netossa to use the spray bottle which would bring some comedic moments and restrain her with some nets(actually THATS A BETTER IDEA THAN EVERYONE JUST GANGING UP ON HER WOW I'M A GENIUS) So yeah if she freaks out *spray bottle* if she attacks people *spray bottle* if she steals something *spray bottle*😂 anyway you get it.
What do you think of what I said?
@@JohnA.-sp9vb Honestly YES that does sound more satisfying. Catra would be able to actually grow while at the same time getting some good environmental benefits. Along with some actual discipline and help in advice from Perfuma and the other princesses.
@@toadlord8594 I'm glad you liked it
@@toadlord8594 Hey did I also mention that since she would be in a much healthier environment?
Catra is abusive and entitled. And yet, the Catra stans defend her.
They only excuse it because of gay shipping.
Maybe they see themselves in her and don't want to admit they don't deserve a happy ending...
@@nagillim7915 so basically a poorly written self-insert
@@nagillim7915 You and Orion are both right.
@@orionbelt4013 Yes. With lesbians.
I have been waiting for you two to tear Catra apart forever.
CALL! OUT! HER! FAULTS! CUZ! SHE'S! A BAD! CHARACTER!
It’s so refreshing to see after seeing so many horny fan girls Stan her atrocious behavior.
This show was a mixed bag for me. It has its pros and cons, and is not above constructive criticism. For me to understand, I need to process this in my own time. Content creators like M and J are appreciated.
I never liked how she got Adora despite all she did. She hurt Adora so much and one single apology is supposed to fix it?
8:34 what's wrong with catra's face 😂
I never liked her
This will be a long read, but Catra reminds me a bit of this one character from a webcomic called Dragon Ball Multiverse. It's this story in the world of Dragon Ball where, after defeating Majin Buu at the end of DBZ, Goku and his friends participate in a tournament against teams from other universes created from if certain moments in the Dragon Ball story happened differently, like if Goku never hit his head as a baby, or if certain villains were victorious against the good guys.
The character I'm referring to is Son Bra, an alternate version of Vegeta's daughter from a universe where he and Goku remained fused together into Vegito rather than splitting apart back into their former selves. Due to being the daughter of the much more powerful Vegito rather than just Vegeta, Son Bra's fighting potential is infinitely greater than most other characters, but she doesn't really care about protecting innocent lives, constantly acts on her emotions, and lets herself lose control with her immense power. In a battle against a villain, she let loose and ended up killing an entire planet's worth of innocent people as well as one of the heroes just to win. At that point, she had gotten so powerful that Vegito is the only hero in their universe who could stop her rampages. When she makes it clear that she has no concern about the collateral damage she caused, her father Vegito gives her an ultimatum, either she learn to control herself, or he'll kill her before she has the chance to surpass him as well.
Now in the Dragon Ball world is an evil wizard named Babidi who can turn people evil as well, which increases their power. The thing with his mind control is that it only works on those who already have malevolence in their hearts, but the power to act independently from Babidi is still a possibility, as Vegeta has shown in DBZ, meaning that to a degree the brainwashed still has autonomy over their actions. During Multiverse proper, Son Bra allows herself to be taken over by Babidi, gaining more power and going on another rampage. Babidi had already teleported some of the more powerful fighters in the tournament to a faraway place so they wouldn't stop him, so only a few fighters were left to fight Bra. Despite some of the remaining fighters being powerful in their own right, none of them stood a chance, and Bra ends up killing most of them, including members of her own family and even many of the tournament spectators, all the while trying to protect Babidi so she wouldn't lose her powerup.
When it looked like Bra would finally be held accountable for her actions, the story pulls a 180 and tries to make it equally Vegito's fault for being an abusive parent for threatening to kill her. Now there's no debate that Vegito is kind of a dick, but Bra proved herself to infinitely worse as a person than Vegito. And while a handful characters still hold Bra to task, like Pan whose father was killed by Bra, it still felt like the story gave her an easy out so they could find a way to potentially redeem her in the future.
Looking back on Catra's "redemption", if you can honestly call it that, there's definitely some parallels between that and whatever DBM's author is setting up for Son Bra's inevitable "redemption." While this isn't a knock to DBM as a whole, that part of it does rub me the wrong way.
Same here I never liked son bra and have always found her so called “redemption” to be total bull crap.
I don't have anything important to add to the conversation that hasn't been covered before about Catra (I don't think) but I just wanted to draw people's attention to 9:59. I didn't realise it before but *wow* is that a face that can and will easily induce nightmares.
It very quickly tells you Catra's state of mind even if and/or when she's not aware of it (be awful to everyone except Adora because the latter's different from the assumed unwashed masses).
Even though I never watched She-Ra, I've learned enough about this show just from watching these videos, and I've come to the conclusion that Noelle Stevenson is a total loon. You can tell just from Catra's "character arc" alone; in fact, I would put Catra in this category I have thought up of characters that ended up perfectly reflecting their creators' ultimately disappointing visions (for my money, Natsu Dragneel and Hawk Moth are in the same boat, feel free to try and debate me about this). But I'm probably getting ahead of myself.
Anyway, good video, M and J, and I can't wait to see the other parts.
I am curious what do you think of hawk moth?
I am curious what do you think of hawk moth? And how does he reflect thomas astruc?
@@usernotfound_____yet He doesn't reflect Astruc as he does what I think Astruc (and Zag) ended up making the show, per se. I gave up on Miraculous (Ladybug) after the first season because I was already sick and tired of how repetitive every episode was, and I learned that season 2 was going to be more of the same. Now we're in season 4, and apparently despite all the worldbuilding (including, from what I've learned, giving Hawk Moth an upgrade), nothing has changed (from glancing at the episode synopses on Wikipedia). Personally, I don't think this is the kind of thing you should do when you're making a series like this, and I reject it completely. Hope this clears up the confusion.
Oh, and one other thing: I don't think Catra reflects Noelle, either (nor do I think Natsu reflects Hiro Mashima, for that matter), since it was made pretty obvious that Noelle was Adora, while their abusive partner was Catra.
What the show runners should have made Adora and Catras relationship more unstable basically having it wherein Catra was always jealous of Adora and Adora was not a good friend either maybe having it that Adora was always looking out for herself desiring to rise up through the horde ranks and was always hard on Catra believing she was holding back. So when Adora defects this leaves Catra the opportunity to get back Adora for all the pain she caused her.
Thanks for the upload
Adora shouldn’t be teaching Catra anything but she is expected to keep trying to save and help her and feel guilty when Catra pushes her away and then whines about Adora “abounding her” again. (◔_◔) Im so over her pity party parade.
Wait...why do people ship catra and adora?
Because “lesbians”.
theyre canonically lesbian in the show.
@@purrkuri that's sad. That's like shipping a man and woman just cuz they're both straight. 😔Tho tbh that's kinda how fandoms be.
@@paintbrush3554 what? have you even watched the show ??
@@purrkuri I've seen parts n from what I've seen catra n adora don't even have a healthy friendship. Catras a egocentric confused stalker at best. I watched this vid n now I'm even more unconvinced these two should be a couple. But I'll admit I haven't watched every episode(especially the last few). That's why I asked why people ship them
This show sweeps EVERYTHING under the rug! They dangle potentially interesting character arcs and plot lines, they tip their toes in serious subject matters but they never commit. They tell a joke or have a the subject dropped or shift focus to something else instead of the important thing they were just talking about or focus on shipping. This show so badly wants to be Avatar the last Airbender when it’s not even the Legend of Korra book two Spirits!
Wanted to be Avatar, Korra, Voltron and Steven Universe. Failed to be all of them.
@@SaltedroastedcaramelExactly! This show is just a hodgepodge of other, better shows, and it just turns out to be a horrid mess. Anything this show claims to have you can find a better representation of it elsewhere.
Catra was the best and worst thing about the reboot. She was interesting, complex and had a story arc. All of which was fumbled and out right botched by the show. Catra was my favourite part of the reboot and that was more despite the writing than because of it. The rest of the show was at best meh to ok and I don't really care that much about it but Catra made me mad just because she could have been great.
Somehow I never noticed this before; but a lot of the voice acting really isn't very good. Most of it sounds like its from some kind of modern comedy series, not a fantasy adventure, and many of the characters sound like they're being voiced by wine-moms.
A lot of them really don't capture the weight and gravitas of the situations given, or even seem to really care about their roles or characters. Anyone remember *Kathleen* *Barr*, one of the greatest female VAs of all time? She voiced _Evil_-_Lynn_ in MO2000X and was able to capture all the essence of her evil and powerful [as well as layered and complex] nature, even when the character had her silly moments.
And that's just one role. She also did a fantastic job giving all sorts of range and believability to Dot Matrix in _ReBoot_, and that show got VERY silly, at times. She was also Gali in 'Bionicle: Mask of Light' and Roodaka in the prequel film 'Web of Shadows', Gelorum in 'Acceleracers', Queen Chrysalis and Trixie Lulamoon in MLP:FiM, and even Kevin and Marie in 'Ed, Edd, 'n' Eddy'.
Now that I mention it; ReBoot was filmed to the brim with fantastic VAs, female ones, especially; Shirley Milner [Hexadecimal], Stevie Vallance [Mouse], and Sharon Alexander and Andrea Libman [AndrAIa] They all stack up great against Michael Benyaer, Ian James Corlett, Paul Dobson, and the legendary Tony Jay.
Whether or not a VA is widely known, all these names listed are clearly capable of massive talent and range. Why is it so hard to give She-Ra anything even remotely like that? Would Barr have really been so hard to get a hold of for at least one character in She-Ra? She could have been an excellent Shadow Weaver...
Or would she then eclipse literally everyone?
That’s what I notice whenever I hear a lot of VA these days. Sometimes they’re great, alright, passable if the story is strong enough, to downright ‘ugh!’
Most of this show’s voices just sound so whiney and grating, and that’s coming from someone like me who loves Jay’s voice for Hiccup in HtTYD 😅 (I can acknowledge its oddity, but it kinda works). The kids are especially annoying to me because it sounds like 20 to 30 something adults trying to sound like teenagers, but base it off cringey Tik Tok or Tumblr teens. There have been decent to amazing VA for young characters by adults, but this cast doesn’t seem to cut it. The adults are a little better, but something just never matches between the voice and character design to me.
The problem is the direction. Nu ra, despite being part of a fantasy cartoon, is made by a person who wants to do a slice of life rather than an action cartoon. In which case, they tried to do a comedy with action and drama. All of these fall flat. Not much action, comedy is dragged too long or inappropriate, drama is often misplaced or hard to take seriously.
The main voice actors on Nu-Ra are from sitcoms. (Catra's voice actor is mostly known for playing dumb blonde characters.)
@@CoolG97 Most of them are from movies and tv shows with the exception of Madam Razz as she's voiced by Grey Delise. Adora and Catra voice actors have voice act before. Adora's voice Elena from Elena of Avalor and Catra voiced Smokey Quartz from Steven Universe
Talent or skill isn't the issue here. 1, they all lived in California so all thought the same - and 2, were real cheap.
this show is flawed in so many ways. the writing. the motivations. most of the characters. but I love it. I dont know why I love it, but I have a blast watching it. not in an ironic "haha this is so bad" sort of way- i genuinely enjoy this cartoon. I wonder why. I guess i like the characters? The writing made me attached and made me care for most characters in the show.
except catra. shes annoying as fuck. in my opinion, as a netflix she-ra fan, these videos criticizing the show- and especially catra- are worth watching and bring up some valid points. keep up the good work!