Visit my website for hardware and software that will help you achieve your competitive goals. www.ShootSmallGroups.com #appliedballistics #believethetarget #longrange
People like Bryan are far and few between. He exhibits a humbleness born of honoring the scientific method in his work. That means continually pursuing the falsification of a working hypothesis. We wouldn't be awash in so much misinformation and outright falsehoods If more people took this approach in their thinking. Erik, thanks for having him on the podcast.
Bingo. Too few people, scientists included, can leave their ego behind in the pursuit of the facts. Why try and fool yourself, the truth will set you free 😉
@@redrock425 you're right, and facts here are the results on the target and not stats that don't take in account the most important and unexplained factors. If you can't prove scientifically that barrel harmonics have an effect on accuracy, it doesn't mean that it has no effect on it.
Eric, the exposure you provide to us from the elites of the shooting sports gives us an immense opportunity to receive knowledge we would normally never have gotten without an untold amount of expenditure of funds at the loading and shooting bench. Thank you sir.
Eric, I love that you talk to so many people from various disciplines. So much of the info is compartmentalized by discipline yet we can all learn from outside our own bubble.
Still watching the video because I had to rewind twice so far to make sure I understood correctly. Thanks to both of you for this video. It takes a lot of intelligence, curiosity and a lack of ego to sit down and have an open-minded convo. 👏👍😎
In my opinion, most shooters who've been in the LR/ELR shooting game for a long time aren't as open-minded as they'd like to believe. We have "our way" and that makes us feel good so we don't look for better ways. This is why I'm glad to see people challenging old ideas like Litz. After a while, the knowledge increases/changes, based on actual evidence, and newer shooters take advantage of this by not getting stuck in the "only way." The goal is not to have it all figured out, the goal is to be less wrong as Litz emphasized.
Yes, modern affliction to think anything old is wrong and new is good. Usually it's a bit of both. Too many "scientists" only interested in proving themselves right rather than testing the hypothesis, revising it and retesting. Lots of rumour, habit and superstition in shooting sports.
Been hoping for this interview since the channel was started. It did NOT disappoint. (Except for being too short. ha ha.) Thank you Erik and Bryan for making this happen. Great conversation!
@44:00 The thing that kept coming to my mind is that there’s a point of diminishing returns in terms of barrel roughness and bullet velocity. That may also explain why velocity slows near the end of its life. Of course, I also like Bryan’s explanation for the bore size slightly increasing which may decrease friction and reduce velocity. Whichever the cause may be, his roughness explanation still makes sense to me.
Thanks Bryan for bringing true knowledge of population distribution and statistical inference to the discussion. Like one of my stats teachers told us, "use statistics like a drunk uses a lamp post, for support not illumination".😊
Thanks Eric. This series is turning out to be a gold mine of information, not to mention a ground breaker in moving shooters thinking toward a far more scientific & realistic outcome. I see your podcasts as well as Hornady, Litz & etc to be the tip of the spear in pushing the shooting community from the subjective to the objective way of thinking & determining an outcome. These podcasts will have a long term effect not only on individual shooters but the industry as a whole. Thanks again Eric. Great stuff. Looking fwd to the next interview.
Man! The last few days have been like Christmas! These podcasts have been popping up in feed... Seeing Erik interview Frank Galli AND Bryan Litz! Phenomenal stuff.
Thank you Bryan and Erik, Excellent topic. As I shoot Bench Rest from time to time , I use the frequent cleaning method, using solvents, during Load Development, in my Hunting Rifles. I shoot .270 Win AND .270 Weatherby mag most often. One range session is either 15 or 18 or 21 rounds as I shoot 3 shot groups. . Thats it, then clean that rifle. During load development, I, may go to the range twice a week, with one rifle. until I have the group size, I'm looking for , at the velocity I need for Hunting applications. Thank You both again for an excellent Pod cast.
Eric the look on your face during the early part of this interview is priceless. When Bryan speaks people listen. 🤣😭🤣😭🤣😭 I’m not busting your balls either. The look on my face was the same😬😭🤣😭😬🤣 I was hanging on every word!!!!!!😭😭😭😭😭😭😭
I've always looked at things like everything is just another data point and the more you can put together the better informed decision you can make. This is why I love these podcasts so much you're taking info from every discipline and putting it out there for everyone which is amazing. Great video as always keepem coming brother!!!!
Wow! By virtue of Government contracts, Bryan has experienced courses of testing that the rest of us are unlikely to ever achieve. Let's face it, who can blow off 1500 rounds of .308 every day for a week or so and not get excited about the cost? For the uninitiated, get a copy of MIL Std (Standard) 105 which is the government guidebook for quality control inspection and or testing. It lays out in text what Bryan is explaining in this video. What I just learned from Bryan is that I'm spinning my wheels weight sorting 22LR ammo because the small sample sizes I'm capable of are not sufficient to overcome the effect of natural selection. I'd need at least a hundred of each sample weight to have a prayer of learning anything from the testing. (Avg of each individual sample)
I am greatly appreciative of the interviews you do and the wealth of knowledge that is passed along to new shooters like myself and those who have been at it for awhile. I’m blown away by how far down the rabbit hole really goes !! Keep up the good work 👍🏾💪🏾
2 great shooters in one pod cast. nice to see them on the same stage. I have read 4 or 5 books of Bryan Litz most of the pages I had to read 2 or 3 times to get it but Bryan's knowledge has made me a great hand loader and shooter. Also I have put a lot of old wise tales about loading and ballistics to rest around the campfire.
I spent a month training for a six sigma black belt certification under a very accomplished statistician it was massively eye opening. Couple things I got out of it: engineers (like me) are not statisticians and we routinely make errors in data analysis and two, we rarely know all of the real variables or their impact on the outcomes… So my take on some of this is that bench rest types have experience that engineers and statisticians can’t find the measurements to explain and they don’t precisely know how to explain it…
Thank you both for sharing what many of us have been looking for ,information based on sound trails and years of experience... wow what a great pod cast..
I had a Remington 700 bdl in .223 that I bought barely used, meaning less than 500 rounds. It also came with over 90 reloads and the recipe. I pin wheeled targets at 100 yds. It was mounted with a 6 power Redfield wide field scope. Although, I kept this gun in great shape, I used it to hunt everything from gophers to deer. I never did completely clean the barrel and it never stopped shooting. It would shoot 3 shots in the bull that you could cover with a mercury dime. I could and did shoot multiple shots trying to to take out the lines of the bull. I was always successful when hunting antelope. Though I no longer have the gun, it makes me wonder if I could have made it better by a better job of cleaning.
Thankyou Erik and Bryan, great questions and discussion. This is a video that watching twice will double what you get from it. I have been watching Erik's videos for about 4 years and they are improving, like his shooting. It is hard to wrap your head about the statistical sample size issue when it is hardly practical to shoot the required sample size. I recently viewed Erik's video with the developer of the OCW method of load development. A key point was that OCW looks at average impact point more than group size. This seemed like an Ah Ha!! moment for me. Groups are made up of a vertical component and a horizontal component and I have thought separating these components was necessary. Another point made in the OCW discussion is that flyers are probably shooter errors or some other factor rather than the load, but still a real event.
Major take aways for me... There's a 30% allowable tolerance in group size. Fighting to get better than that as a recreational shooter is just banging your head against the wall. And... Now I understand why they weren't twisting barrels faster back in the day. From time to time you hear about certain cartridges "failing" because the barrels weren't twisted fast enough to stabilize the heavier bullets. Now I understand why. If you try spinning up an off balanced bullet too fast, it's just going to corkscrew on you. Once the manufacturing process was improved to provide better balance, you could then increase the twist rates.
It's very cool how you don't have to be a scientist to understand everything Bryan says. Only the best of the best can articulate such topics in Layman's terms.
What Litz did not point out when Eric was asking about BC and software is that the G1 and G7 software is based on how a particular shaped bullet flies. The bullet used to develop the G7 curve has a 7.5° boattail 0.6 calibers long, a shank 1.45 calibers long and a 10 caliber tangent ogive. Unless your bullet is shaped EXACTLY like that, the equation will predict the wrong drop. It might get close, but it won't be perfect. A custom drag curve is developed for the specifically for the bullet you are shooting.
Thank you very much for this podcast! I loved the info in this one and will definitely have to listen multiple times to get all the info out. When two people can sit down with different points of views on their experiences and how they achieved them, people can sure learn a lot. Thanks Erik for sharing so we all can try and better ourselves in the shooting sports.
Wow, what an in-depth conversation. I watched the entire video trying my best to wrap my grey mass around what all was being discussed. Very interesting stuff. Its a pleasure to learn from experts that are willing to share information. ❤️✌️😎👍
I found it very interesting that two professionals in their respective areas of ballistics and marksmanship have such varying opinions on different things. It doesn't mean that either is wrong or right, but it opens up dialogue that makes us think outside the box that we normally hang out in. Pretty good interview. I love your channel.
For me the comment "they try to attack everything at once, they are really confusing themselves" is 100% accurate. After I shot 1200 rounds in two and half months I decided to get into reloading and it was overwhelming. I just wanted to keep shooting at the volume I was but do it for cheaper. I had to slowly work on each piece of the reloading process. Now I feel much more comfortable with everything. Just need to get a damn lab radar lol.
Erik with a “K”! Very interesting dialogue. Bryan has made a career out of testing data, with more resources available. It’s probably why his shooting days are behind him. Moving forward I am keep those 3 aspects in mind; ignition, harmonics, and external ballistics. I’m going to be getting a 223 AI, and I can afford to shoot larger sample sizes with that 😂. Thanks again, Isaac
First of all thankyou Erik for taking us back stage and deep into the sport of high end precision shooting! We are just peons and as far as im concerned enjoy this trove of information you have exposed. Information which always useful and only enhances and promotes the sport of precision shooting. That being said I would like to thank all of your guests! Super informative, entertaining and just plain fun! Just to name a few, speedy gonzalez, jack neary, this guy hear too many to list. I think what hes trying to say concerning statistical distribution of group size is that no barrel can shoot 1 moa or 1/4 moa without changing something in the equation to stay ahead of the curve. He said “Using the same load” for 1500 rounds without changing the load. We all know that everything breaks down if adjustments are not made. Like for example as you said changing your oil. Im sure toyota, ford, honda etc all know this break down distribution as well. We all know barrels will lose accuracy with shots fired unless we change something like load, bullet seating, and yes proper cleaning.. at least thats what I got out of it. Great videos! Thankyou once again! And yes, Im the same guy that bought about 5 tuners from you, great products!
Two living legends arguing and at points discreetly disagreeing, but touching the subject of handloading neither mentions "accuracy nodes". That alone should tell us something about popular testing protocols, but listening to the whole discussion is a treasure trove of useful information.
Minimizing cumulative variation is how you get a small group. That includes ammunition component variation, equipment variation (temp, mechanical positioning, barrel fouling, etc), environment, shooter… reduce these and you get the small groups.
Let me start by saying my brain hurts from all this knowledge bomb being dropped! So much great info. But I can’t believe you did this to us!!!!!!!!! Lol😂 dang that was a cliffhanger like no other! I can’t wait for the next segment! Thank you so much and thanks for a great tuner break!
Requarding primer powder match up Brian is spot on a good example would be a slow burning powder in a large case and burning that powder completely and consistently.
I think Bryan's point with the custom drag table is that you can more accurately determine dope when targets are at varied distances. Obviously it wouldn't be useful for a known and zeroed distance such as 1000yds. For prs when you need to hit a plate the first time this is much more convenient then doping @ 100, 200, 300 and all the way to 1000yds.
I believe that the best BR shooters are able to see/read the variances and know how to compensate with their loading whether it's caused by the humidity or the natural curve.
On the abrasives topic; I have my second 6.5 creed Proof barrel on my competition rifle and it had somewhere between 1600-1900 rounds on it and I just could not get it to group with anything..y buddy has a nearly identical set up and cleaning habits as me but his rifle shot absolutely stellar and we develop our loads at the same time. Bore sighting his barrel vs mine, I had WAY more fire cracking and carbon fouling that absolutely wouldn't come out. I would bronze scrub with lots of solvents, let it sit, scrubs, wipe clean, etc, and it still wouldn't clear. Over winter I had decided it was just a "bad" barrel and was ready to replace it this year but decided to give it one last go with some jb bore paste followed by bore bright since that had cleared up some issues with my non-competition rifles and after... a TON of jb and one more good cleaning I took it out to redevelop loads and Holy cow. It went from doing maybe 1.5-2moa down to 0.4"-0.75" on every charge with my 144 hybrids. So I'm a believer. If anyone is frustrated with their barrel that SHOULD be good, give it a shot.
That’s a tough one, obviously your story is just one anecdote. A copper bullet blistering through a barrel should “smooth” imperfections far better than a bore paste…. would be the counter argument. Was it just not clean enough with solvent? Was it placebo? The argument will likely go on.
One of the factors that constantly changes is temperature. From chemistry the rate of a chemical reaction doubles for each 10° increase in temperature.
So I liked this podcast but I must say after reading Brian’s books and listening to his podcast for months now , we are dealing with a data driven shooter . For me this is beneficial because it deals with facts , tested facts . I think the best thing you can do is learn from proven consistent champions who love to share there information. The thing you have to determine is what ur trying to achieve. For me it’s hunting long range . So I need good cold bore , low ES and SDs . Good BC killing bullets at distance. So I incorporate some bench rest practices and ELR practices into my reloading and shooting. You need to pull form each discipline. Brian is scientific based data driven proven champion shooter ! Jack Neary is a proven bench rest champion . At 100 yards , SDs and ES s don’t matter, just groups . So u can’t take that load and shoot 800 yards . I did think Eric had small problem by trying to maybe disprove some of Brian’s scientific data driven facts ? Maybe do to the turner article in his book 🤔 Brian is a humble guy which goes along way with me . Here’s the proven data ? You don’t have to believe it , you can continue to thrash around spend hundred if not thousands on tools that aren’t proven to consistently work . Over all good podcast . These are just my opinions and you know what opinions are like !
Hello. I agree with you when you say that all depends on what you're trying to achieve, and the way is to understand which techniques are the best to do it. About tuners they work from what I know after using it in rimfire benchrest shooting for years. What isn't statistically relevant on 100 or 1000 rounds for Mr Litz can be relevant for benchrest shooters : 5 shots groups aggregates, load development based on 3 shots groups, positive compensation with barrel tuners and powder charge or seating depth tuning... Otherwise he could just try to prove them they're wrong by winning their competitions by only using what's in his books. Because they know that science just explains very few aspects of reality, scientists don't fear to admit the huge part of ignorance in our knowledge. Even if ballistics rules and chronograph stats explain a lot of things, to my mind it's a wrong way to try to explain everything with it, especially what he hasn't been testing yet.
I wasn’t sure about listening to a two-hour video, but it was certainly worth it. Thanks to you both. I am still puzzled about one thing that was mentioned here and I first read in volume III of Litz’s advancements in long range shooting book: How can external humidity affect powder that is contained inside a stout metal cartridge case that is stoppered with tight fitting bullet and primer? Mention was made of “leaky” cartridges. How does that occur? Are the bullets seated so loosely that air can migrate in and out of the case? Does change in atmospheric pressure due to weather conditions or altitude make that happen?
Ambient temp and altitude maybe? The brass heating up and offgasing from the air inside expanding? The higher drier your altitude the more its gonna wanna expand/depressureize the air inside the case like an airplane? Also the lower more humid altitudes causes a vacuum inside the case from the ambient pressure being more compared to where the ammo was loaded causing a strong vacuum in the case therefore the case will pull in moisture? Crack a fresh bottle of water in ambient temp put it in the fridge and it may shrivel up some, take it out of the fridge and let it sit and it will expand and youl hear it pop from it expanding, thats also happening to ammo but the world is its fridge lol
So much good information to digest! I think the "trust, but verify" attitude will always be the key to success. Erik, THANK YOU so much for bringing all of these great people together. The knowledge, wisdom and experience from you all bolsters my enthusiasm for learning more. Bryan, thanks for publishing your findings to share with us.
"Derty Harry" said, "A man has got to know his limitations". These guys help me to avoid spending more on improvement then I can possibly achieve with my given resources. Thanks
It would be extremely valuable to run a test using the groups from a bench shooter’s gun over it’s life after everything has been locked (bullet, case, base charge weight). It would be interesting to see if the sd of 30% for group sizes holds up. If it does this is a very useful piece of knowledge. If it’s tighter than that, it would explain why bench shooters can ‘whisper’ to their gun. A more precision instrument would be much more sensitive to slight changes, i.e. - much less noise more gain to read the changes. This would explain why the guys the big data statistical types are unable to understand why their methods work. Their assumptions assume wide variability and therefore requiring large sample sets to pick up on small improvements. For example, if a gun that is a .25 moa had a standard deviation of 10% you could pretty easily measure a change to .4 moa because that would place more than 90% of the shots outside of the 99% confidence interval off of .25. You don’t need a huge sample size to confirm that you’re falling out of tune, 2-3 shots could reliably show that you’re out of tune. Then applying prior experience and knowledge you would be able to make proper adjustments and then be able to test that you’re in tune again with a couple of shots.
Was enjoyable to listen. Some interesting concepts discussed. Shooting a Comp in Australia at a distance of 500m Called Fly shoot were we score and measure group size then add together for a total score. Understanding how to make our rifle consistently consistent to shoot a 25mm X (Fly) is a passion. Not sure I will worry about the paid subscription for a discussion on Tunners... my popcorn machine is broken... one day Erik might visit Aus and shoot a SSAA CF Fly shoot.
Welp, I've been in the power industry for almost 40 years. I know things about the combustion process of VOCs that most engineering disciplines wouldn't even suspect. The easiest little tid bit to remember is simply that water increases in volume by 1600 times when it transitions to steam. I'm going to let everyone discover the rest for themselves 🤙
Been waiting for this interview for sure. A tremendous amount of info but to me he talks like a politician in some aspects when you try to pin him down to a specific area, just one example on bullet pointing, you asked for a specific measuring step or function to achieve the proper meplat or best tip. His answer was it depends on what bullet your using and I agree but where and how to measure for this should have been answered and he just answered it depends... Again lots of info but no resolution to anything at least for me. Bryan is a VERY smart man for sure and I respect his knowledge but it seems to be sorta closed minded to others input or testing. Thank you Erik and Bryan for this video and interview it was an eye opening view. It depends!!
it’s because Bryan understands these questions are not black and white like we want them to be. It is frustrating to grasp at first, but once you understand why he responds this way it will make you a much better precision shooter. remember, if there were definitive answers to these questions they would have been figured out by now, but they haven’t been.
@@SigmaBallistics Sorry sir I don't drink that flavor, again he's a smart politician. I's not frustrating for me at all I take away what I need and I expect other do as well.
Wow! You asked about the bullet sorting question! Exactly what I wanted! So now that I’ve sorted 200 by base to ogive… no I’ll just redo 100 base to tip and compare the two.
I'm sure this has already been covered in another comments, but truing your Kestrel (ballistic calculator) for each profile is important because all of the available chronographs will not be consistent across all manufactures and might not be precise. So by truing the Kestrel it is adjusting the true MV by using the known distance to the known bullet drop per the custom drag model. So if you put in a MV of 2900 and the known bullet drop from the Kestrel is say 30 MOA at a 1000 yards and the actual drop from live fire is 30.5 MOA then the MV is faster then 2900. When the POI of 30.5 is added into the Kestrel it will make the appropriate adjustment of the actual MV.
It's important to rank the variables. Some will have a much larger effect than others on group size. Start with the biggest variables and control what you are able to. Wind and shooter ability will be right at the top.
Hello, what is true for PRS or offhand shooting isn't the rule. I have the exact opposite approach. First, since I shoot with very light triggers from the most steady positions (prone or from a bench, with rear support on sandbags + bipod or tripod on the front), shooter ability is not in the first limiting factor. I would say wind reading and rifle+ammo overall accuracy are the two most important parameters of the equation. Since checking your gear overall accuracy is the easiest thing to do, that's what I always begin with, but there's another reason. Just suppose you have a bad barrel and/or bad quality bullets (supposed to have the best BC in the world), and you decide to test your skills at 600yds. Each time it will spit a bullet in a random direction you won't have any way to understand if it's you or the wind or anything else. No way to understand the reason of a poi shift on target = no way of improving your wind management.
Bullet seating depth of jump, jam or touching of the barrels rifling is the horizontal part of the group and the powder charge and type of powder is the vertical part of the group!
Takes: -Abrasive barrel conditioning keeps velocities down better and possibly(?) gives more constant velocities -loading the same powder charge led to fps increase of 200fps after the powder dried with desiccant pouch in the ammo can -H4350 has 0.8% weight gain from 30% to 60% humidity -Primers make big change to how the powder acts and affects MV SD/ES
What Eric said about an abrasive for break in is my approach. I use jb bore paste between 10 shots. My idea is to smooth the lands that were cut by the reamer. The reamer marks are across the bullet travel on the lands and catch jacket material.
Wouldn’t the argument be though that a copper bullet blistering down the barrel is going to do a pretty good job of naturally smoothing the barrel assuming you keep it clean in between the first few shots? I mean, that’s an insane amount of friction.
I always thought the barrel sped up because the copper fouling in the barrel filled, smoothed and even lubricated the barrel, up to a point, and would even increase pressure. Cleaning or removing any copper in the barrel would lose pressure and speed. These guys know their stuff.
Erik, I would recommend using Median as a measure vs. Average. Averages can and are very deceptive & can be blown with one shot. Median calculates group center with 50% of shots above center & 50% of shots below center. A much better measure for group. As far as BR changes through the day, consider the Canadian sniper who placed his ammo in direct sunlight in order to get the velocity he needed to make the record shot. Temp is one obvious variable through the day.
In a normally distributed relationship, the median and the average are the same. Obviously that requires an appropriately sized sample size. However, mathematically you have to use the average to calculate sd, so while I’m not disagreeing with you. It really depends on what you’re looking at and how you’re going to test it. You are absolutely right when it comes to reading groups. If you have four shots grouping, and one straying, versus, a tighter group with a smaller moa but a much more random pattern. It would be good to further test the 4 that grouped before writing it off.
You can measure the speed at two target distances using radar cronos and calculate a bc or you can use a bc calculated from shape ogive length tail angle etc
There are no arc’s in cnc interpolation between two axis like milling an curve between x&y on a Milling machine. But here is a true arc made with a boring bar! Hence thats why you bore a engine cylinder and don’t interpolate one.
When breaking in a barrel, your work hardening the stainless steel , try using a 1/8 drill on stainless sheet and put drill on fast , ok the drill will burn and the stainless instantly hardens , when we run a barrel in we are work hardening the core using bullets , so we don’t want to aneal imperfections into the base metal , so as we smooth the surface ( and harden) we clean as much as we can , until no copper gets left between shots then groups of shots , Dan Australia
I am not as experienced as you guys but at 45-46min in the interview where you are talking about barrel speeding up and slowing down, i have notice when you do a rapid firing during a stage of say 10 shots, the barrel is hotter more towards the middle of the barrel. So the idea of friction and powder burn is very logical to me, but like i said, i am far from the experience level here. Erick, great videos and content. Thank you.
At around 19:00 in, Mr Litz said 38 thou. He accidentally divided 75 by 2 instead of multiplying. He meant 150 thou as in 0.1” to 0.4” is 95% of groups if your average is 1/4.
I like to load some cast bullets. Then for the last shot I have one that is lubed with fine valve grinding compound. Then I cut slips in a 1/4" wood dowel and put multiple cloth patches with more fine compound and go with the rifling. For deep cleaning I pull the barrel and plug both ends with my fingers. I have a bottle of mercury I pour in and tip the barrel for an hour, then pour it back to reuse.
.There are a lot of postings regarding upcoming testing of tuners by Bryan. The testing of tuners he did is discussed in detail in his book "Modern Advancements in Long Range Shooting - Volume III" copyright - 2022. He fired over 1800 rounds in both rimfire and center fire rifles. Many are going to find the results interesting,
Okay I think I have a theory on why Bryan is right. You shoot 1,500 rounds with the same ammo you wear out the throat as well as the lands in the barrel. Throughout the life of the barrel the bullet is moving slower or faster through the barrel. So for instance when we “foul” out a barrel the pressure is increased and the barrel produces more speed throughout the life cycle of the barrel. This changes harmonics and if you figure out the effects of exactly how much wear causes these speeds and the speed increase then you can come up with a formula to adjust a tuner to be very reliable with group sizes. 100 rounds baseline my rifle starts to increase 45 fps. I clean and I lose 65 fps. My groups from 10 shots to 99 are .25” average while once I get over this 100th round I start getting .75” groups and 75 fps difference in rounds. I think that a barrel has a limit on how many rounds you can put through it before it starts increasing velocity and this is why the benchrest guys clean so regularly because they have a number of rounds they know they can shoot before this increase in pressure.
Another reason why benchrest shooters reload at the range is that they can use always the same 5 "good" brass cases to make their groups. After testing years ago, some of them saw they made tighter 5 shot groups by using always the same case and reload it between the shots. Now they sort and reject brass that causes flyers before competitions.
This was great. I was looking forward to the tuner discussion, but y’all covered a lot of good ground. Please link us to his podcast when you do it. I’m also looking forward to your discussion with Quintan from Hornady. Listening to Bryan today makes me think those two have quite a bit of common ground on the sample size and seating depth issues in particular.
Litz is incredibly smart, talented and insightful. Peterson is a babbling drug addled grifter that’s done so much Benzodiazepines and Klonopin that it’s permanently damaged his brain. They are absolutely nothing alike.
People like Bryan are far and few between. He exhibits a humbleness born of honoring the scientific method in his work. That means continually pursuing the falsification of a working hypothesis. We wouldn't be awash in so much misinformation and outright falsehoods If more people took this approach in their thinking. Erik, thanks for having him on the podcast.
Bingo. Too few people, scientists included, can leave their ego behind in the pursuit of the facts. Why try and fool yourself, the truth will set you free 😉
@@redrock425 you're right, and facts here are the results on the target and not stats that don't take in account the most important and unexplained factors. If you can't prove scientifically that barrel harmonics have an effect on accuracy, it doesn't mean that it has no effect on it.
I LOVE seeing two mature adults that don't agree 100% have an amazing conversation that everyone benefits from.
Man, Bryan is a walking science lab. He puts out amazing data based info that really is a blessing and clearly a very humble guy.
Eric, the exposure you provide to us from the elites of the shooting sports gives us an immense opportunity to receive knowledge we would normally never have gotten without an untold amount of expenditure of funds at the loading and shooting bench. Thank you sir.
The reality of it is that without the support of other people's money, we simply cannot do it.
Eric, I love that you talk to so many people from various disciplines. So much of the info is compartmentalized by discipline yet we can all learn from outside our own bubble.
Still watching the video because I had to rewind twice so far to make sure I understood correctly. Thanks to both of you for this video. It takes a lot of intelligence, curiosity and a lack of ego to sit down and have an open-minded convo. 👏👍😎
In my opinion, most shooters who've been in the LR/ELR shooting game for a long time aren't as open-minded as they'd like to believe.
We have "our way" and that makes us feel good so we don't look for better ways.
This is why I'm glad to see people challenging old ideas like Litz.
After a while, the knowledge increases/changes, based on actual evidence, and newer shooters take advantage of this by not getting stuck in the "only way."
The goal is not to have it all figured out, the goal is to be less wrong as Litz emphasized.
Yes, modern affliction to think anything old is wrong and new is good. Usually it's a bit of both. Too many "scientists" only interested in proving themselves right rather than testing the hypothesis, revising it and retesting. Lots of rumour, habit and superstition in shooting sports.
Wow, what a show. I feel like I need to go look in the mirror to make sure my hair isn't on fire. Will most definitely be watching this one again.
Been hoping for this interview since the channel was started. It did NOT disappoint. (Except for being too short. ha ha.) Thank you Erik and Bryan for making this happen. Great conversation!
@44:00 The thing that kept coming to my mind is that there’s a point of diminishing returns in terms of barrel roughness and bullet velocity. That may also explain why velocity slows near the end of its life.
Of course, I also like Bryan’s explanation for the bore size slightly increasing which may decrease friction and reduce velocity. Whichever the cause may be, his roughness explanation still makes sense to me.
For me it explains easily why some barrels shoot better with more cleaning and some others don't.
Thanks Bryan for bringing true knowledge of population distribution and statistical inference to the discussion.
Like one of my stats teachers told us, "use statistics like a drunk uses a lamp post, for support not illumination".😊
Thanks Eric.
This series is turning out to be a gold mine of information, not to mention a ground breaker in moving shooters thinking toward a far more scientific & realistic outcome.
I see your podcasts as well as Hornady, Litz & etc to be the tip of the spear in pushing the shooting community from the subjective to the objective way of thinking & determining an outcome.
These podcasts will have a long term effect not only on individual shooters but the industry as a whole.
Thanks again Eric. Great stuff. Looking fwd to the next interview.
Just after 1:40, The dialogue is the leading edge of our time from 2x shooting dynasties. Thank you.
Two of the best talking with each other. As good as it gets.
Man! The last few days have been like Christmas! These podcasts have been popping up in feed... Seeing Erik interview Frank Galli AND Bryan Litz! Phenomenal stuff.
Everytime you post a podcast, I cant believe that I get to listen for free.
Thank you Bryan and Erik, Excellent topic. As I shoot Bench Rest from time to time , I use the frequent cleaning method, using solvents, during Load Development, in my Hunting Rifles. I shoot .270 Win AND .270 Weatherby mag most often. One range session is either 15 or 18 or 21 rounds as I shoot 3 shot groups. . Thats it, then clean that rifle. During load development, I, may go to the range twice a week, with one rifle. until I have the group size, I'm looking for , at the velocity I need for Hunting applications. Thank You both again for an excellent Pod cast.
Valuable information explained in layman's terms. I can't find the words to express gratitude ,thank you
This is the best interview yet! Can't wait to get out and start retesting everything I thought I was doing right before!
Eric the look on your face during the early part of this interview is priceless. When Bryan speaks people listen. 🤣😭🤣😭🤣😭 I’m not busting your balls either. The look on my face was the same😬😭🤣😭😬🤣 I was hanging on every word!!!!!!😭😭😭😭😭😭😭
Thanks Erik and bryan for doing a great job at educating all of us.
I've always looked at things like everything is just another data point and the more you can put together the better informed decision you can make. This is why I love these podcasts so much you're taking info from every discipline and putting it out there for everyone which is amazing. Great video as always keepem coming brother!!!!
RIGHT ON ERIK!
Great interaction and conversation!
Bryan is a top dog! Really enjoyed him!
Wow! By virtue of Government contracts, Bryan has experienced courses of testing that the rest of us are unlikely to ever achieve. Let's face it, who can blow off 1500 rounds of .308 every day for a week or so and not get excited about the cost? For the uninitiated, get a copy of MIL Std (Standard) 105 which is the government guidebook for quality control inspection and or testing. It lays out in text what Bryan is explaining in this video. What I just learned from Bryan is that I'm spinning my wheels weight sorting 22LR ammo because the small sample sizes I'm capable of are not sufficient to overcome the effect of natural selection. I'd need at least a hundred of each sample weight to have a prayer of learning anything from the testing. (Avg of each individual sample)
I am greatly appreciative of the interviews you do and the wealth of knowledge that is passed along to new shooters like myself and those who have been at it for awhile. I’m blown away by how far down the rabbit hole really goes !! Keep up the good work 👍🏾💪🏾
2 great shooters in one pod cast. nice to see them on the same stage. I have read 4 or 5 books of Bryan Litz most of the pages I had to read 2 or 3 times to get it but Bryan's knowledge has made me a great hand loader and shooter. Also I have put a lot of old wise tales about loading and ballistics to rest around the campfire.
I spent a month training for a six sigma black belt certification under a very accomplished statistician it was massively eye opening. Couple things I got out of it: engineers (like me) are not statisticians and we routinely make errors in data analysis and two, we rarely know all of the real variables or their impact on the outcomes… So my take on some of this is that bench rest types have experience that engineers and statisticians can’t find the measurements to explain and they don’t precisely know how to explain it…
You said six sigma. Now my brain hurts! Good stuff though.
Thank you both for sharing what many of us have been looking for ,information based on sound trails and years of experience... wow what a great pod cast..
I had a Remington 700 bdl in .223 that I bought barely used, meaning less than 500 rounds. It also came with over 90 reloads and the recipe. I pin wheeled targets at 100 yds. It was mounted with a 6 power Redfield wide field scope. Although, I kept this gun in great shape, I used it to hunt everything from gophers to deer. I never did completely clean the barrel and it never stopped shooting. It would shoot 3 shots in the bull that you could cover with a mercury dime. I could and did shoot multiple shots trying to to take out the lines of the bull. I was always successful when hunting antelope. Though I no longer have the gun, it makes me wonder if I could have made it better by a better job of cleaning.
Thankyou Erik and Bryan, great questions and discussion. This is a video that watching twice will double what you get from it. I have been watching Erik's videos for about 4 years and they are improving, like his shooting. It is hard to wrap your head about the statistical sample size issue when it is hardly practical to shoot the required sample size. I recently viewed Erik's video with the developer of the OCW method of load development. A key point was that OCW looks at average impact point more than group size. This seemed like an Ah Ha!! moment for me. Groups are made up of a vertical component and a horizontal component and I have thought separating these components was necessary. Another point made in the OCW discussion is that flyers are probably shooter errors or some other factor rather than the load, but still a real event.
What an incredibly comprehensive and detailed information trove. Thank you Erik and Bryan!
This is gold!!!
Referencing the scientific method sums it all up.
Great interview with a very knowledgeable professional!
just watched this for the 3rd time. Great Video. Best thing I got from this is to keep an open mind and keep searching for more knowledge.
Glad you enjoyed it!
I've been waiting for this interview and Bryan and Erik delivered.
Major take aways for me...
There's a 30% allowable tolerance in group size. Fighting to get better than that as a recreational shooter is just banging your head against the wall.
And...
Now I understand why they weren't twisting barrels faster back in the day.
From time to time you hear about certain cartridges "failing" because the barrels weren't twisted fast enough to stabilize the heavier bullets.
Now I understand why.
If you try spinning up an off balanced bullet too fast, it's just going to corkscrew on you.
Once the manufacturing process was improved to provide better balance, you could then increase the twist rates.
New favorite podcast! Good discussions!
It's very cool how you don't have to be a scientist to understand everything Bryan says. Only the best of the best can articulate such topics in Layman's terms.
What Litz did not point out when Eric was asking about BC and software is that the G1 and G7 software is based on how a particular shaped bullet flies. The bullet used to develop the G7 curve has a 7.5° boattail 0.6 calibers long, a shank 1.45 calibers long and a 10 caliber tangent ogive. Unless your bullet is shaped EXACTLY like that, the equation will predict the wrong drop. It might get close, but it won't be perfect. A custom drag curve is developed for the specifically for the bullet you are shooting.
Thank you very much for this podcast! I loved the info in this one and will definitely have to listen multiple times to get all the info out. When two people can sit down with different points of views on their experiences and how they achieved them, people can sure learn a lot. Thanks Erik for sharing so we all can try and better ourselves in the shooting sports.
Wow, what an in-depth conversation. I watched the entire video trying my best to wrap my grey mass around what all was being discussed. Very interesting stuff. Its a pleasure to learn from experts that are willing to share information. ❤️✌️😎👍
I found it very interesting that two professionals in their respective areas of ballistics and marksmanship have such varying opinions on different things. It doesn't mean that either is wrong or right, but it opens up dialogue that makes us think outside the box that we normally hang out in. Pretty good interview. I love your channel.
I like the idea of monitoring powder humidity with a Kestrel Drop in a sealed ammo can with desiccant before reloading.
For me the comment "they try to attack everything at once, they are really confusing themselves" is 100% accurate. After I shot 1200 rounds in two and half months I decided to get into reloading and it was overwhelming. I just wanted to keep shooting at the volume I was but do it for cheaper. I had to slowly work on each piece of the reloading process. Now I feel much more comfortable with everything. Just need to get a damn lab radar lol.
Erik with a “K”! Very interesting dialogue. Bryan has made a career out of testing data, with more resources available. It’s probably why his shooting days are behind him.
Moving forward I am keep those 3 aspects in mind; ignition, harmonics, and external ballistics. I’m going to be getting a 223 AI, and I can afford to shoot larger sample sizes with that 😂.
Thanks again,
Isaac
First of all thankyou Erik for taking us back stage and deep into the sport of high end precision shooting! We are just peons and as far as im concerned enjoy this trove of information you have exposed. Information which always useful and only enhances and promotes the sport of precision shooting. That being said I would like to thank all of your guests! Super informative, entertaining and just plain fun! Just to name a few, speedy gonzalez, jack neary, this guy hear too many to list.
I think what hes trying to say concerning statistical distribution of group size is that no barrel can shoot 1 moa or 1/4 moa without changing something in the equation to stay ahead of the curve. He said “Using the same load” for 1500 rounds without changing the load. We all know that everything breaks down if adjustments are not made. Like for example as you said changing your oil. Im sure toyota, ford, honda etc all know this break down distribution as well. We all know barrels will lose accuracy with shots fired unless we change something like load, bullet seating, and yes proper cleaning.. at least thats what I got out of it. Great videos! Thankyou once again! And yes, Im the same guy that bought about 5 tuners from you, great products!
I have watched this video first time today. That's a great video and an impressive talk. Please keep on sharing! Thanks!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Two living legends arguing and at points discreetly disagreeing, but touching the subject of handloading neither mentions "accuracy nodes". That alone should tell us something about popular testing protocols, but listening to the whole discussion is a treasure trove of useful information.
Minimizing cumulative variation is how you get a small group. That includes ammunition component variation, equipment variation (temp, mechanical positioning, barrel fouling, etc), environment, shooter… reduce these and you get the small groups.
Let me start by saying my brain hurts from all this knowledge bomb being dropped! So much great info. But I can’t believe you did this to us!!!!!!!!! Lol😂 dang that was a cliffhanger like no other! I can’t wait for the next segment! Thank you so much and thanks for a great tuner break!
Requarding primer powder match up Brian is spot on a good example would be a slow burning powder in a large case and burning that powder completely and consistently.
I think Bryan's point with the custom drag table is that you can more accurately determine dope when targets are at varied distances. Obviously it wouldn't be useful for a known and zeroed distance such as 1000yds. For prs when you need to hit a plate the first time this is much more convenient then doping @ 100, 200, 300 and all the way to 1000yds.
I believe that the best BR shooters are able to see/read the variances and know how to compensate with their loading whether it's caused by the humidity or the natural curve.
On the abrasives topic; I have my second 6.5 creed Proof barrel on my competition rifle and it had somewhere between 1600-1900 rounds on it and I just could not get it to group with anything..y buddy has a nearly identical set up and cleaning habits as me but his rifle shot absolutely stellar and we develop our loads at the same time. Bore sighting his barrel vs mine, I had WAY more fire cracking and carbon fouling that absolutely wouldn't come out. I would bronze scrub with lots of solvents, let it sit, scrubs, wipe clean, etc, and it still wouldn't clear. Over winter I had decided it was just a "bad" barrel and was ready to replace it this year but decided to give it one last go with some jb bore paste followed by bore bright since that had cleared up some issues with my non-competition rifles and after... a TON of jb and one more good cleaning I took it out to redevelop loads and Holy cow. It went from doing maybe 1.5-2moa down to 0.4"-0.75" on every charge with my 144 hybrids. So I'm a believer. If anyone is frustrated with their barrel that SHOULD be good, give it a shot.
That’s a tough one, obviously your story is just one anecdote. A copper bullet blistering through a barrel should “smooth” imperfections far better than a bore paste…. would be the counter argument. Was it just not clean enough with solvent? Was it placebo? The argument will likely go on.
so so appreciate this channel and these chats, thank you all
One of the factors that constantly changes is temperature. From chemistry the rate of a chemical reaction doubles for each 10° increase in temperature.
I remember watching movies and the ending sucks, it always was a letdown… glad to learn about powder / ammo storage and it’s correlation to fps/ sd’s
So I liked this podcast but I must say after reading Brian’s books and listening to his podcast for months now , we are dealing with a data driven shooter . For me this is beneficial because it deals with facts , tested facts . I think the best thing you can do is learn from proven consistent champions who love to share there information. The thing you have to determine is what ur trying to achieve. For me it’s hunting long range . So I need good cold bore , low ES and SDs . Good BC killing bullets at distance. So I incorporate some bench rest practices and ELR practices into my reloading and shooting. You need to pull form each discipline. Brian is scientific based data driven proven champion shooter ! Jack Neary is a proven bench rest champion . At 100 yards , SDs and ES s don’t matter, just groups . So u can’t take that load and shoot 800 yards . I did think Eric had small problem by trying to maybe disprove some of Brian’s scientific data driven facts ? Maybe do to the turner article in his book 🤔 Brian is a humble guy which goes along way with me . Here’s the proven data ? You don’t have to believe it , you can continue to thrash around spend hundred if not thousands on tools that aren’t proven to consistently work . Over all good podcast . These are just my opinions and you know what opinions are like !
Hello. I agree with you when you say that all depends on what you're trying to achieve, and the way is to understand which techniques are the best to do it. About tuners they work from what I know after using it in rimfire benchrest shooting for years. What isn't statistically relevant on 100 or 1000 rounds for Mr Litz can be relevant for benchrest shooters : 5 shots groups aggregates, load development based on 3 shots groups, positive compensation with barrel tuners and powder charge or seating depth tuning... Otherwise he could just try to prove them they're wrong by winning their competitions by only using what's in his books. Because they know that science just explains very few aspects of reality, scientists don't fear to admit the huge part of ignorance in our knowledge. Even if ballistics rules and chronograph stats explain a lot of things, to my mind it's a wrong way to try to explain everything with it, especially what he hasn't been testing yet.
My brain just exploded...
Thanks for the information Brian and Erik
I wasn’t sure about listening to a two-hour video, but it was certainly worth it. Thanks to you both. I am still puzzled about one thing that was mentioned here and I first read in volume III of Litz’s advancements in long range shooting book: How can external humidity affect powder that is contained inside a stout metal cartridge case that is stoppered with tight fitting bullet and primer? Mention was made of “leaky” cartridges. How does that occur? Are the bullets seated so loosely that air can migrate in and out of the case? Does change in atmospheric pressure due to weather conditions or altitude make that happen?
Ambient temp and altitude maybe? The brass heating up and offgasing from the air inside expanding? The higher drier your altitude the more its gonna wanna expand/depressureize the air inside the case like an airplane? Also the lower more humid altitudes causes a vacuum inside the case from the ambient pressure being more compared to where the ammo was loaded causing a strong vacuum in the case therefore the case will pull in moisture? Crack a fresh bottle of water in ambient temp put it in the fridge and it may shrivel up some, take it out of the fridge and let it sit and it will expand and youl hear it pop from it expanding, thats also happening to ammo but the world is its fridge lol
Thanks for the discussion guys really enjoying your program Eric .
Bryan, thank you for all the helpful literature you've provided for us.
So much good information to digest! I think the "trust, but verify" attitude will always be the key to success. Erik, THANK YOU so much for bringing all of these great people together. The knowledge, wisdom and experience from you all bolsters my enthusiasm for learning more. Bryan, thanks for publishing your findings to share with us.
"Derty Harry" said, "A man has got to know his limitations". These guys help me to avoid spending more on improvement then I can possibly achieve with my given resources. Thanks
It would be extremely valuable to run a test using the groups from a bench shooter’s gun over it’s life after everything has been locked (bullet, case, base charge weight). It would be interesting to see if the sd of 30% for group sizes holds up. If it does this is a very useful piece of knowledge. If it’s tighter than that, it would explain why bench shooters can ‘whisper’ to their gun. A more precision instrument would be much more sensitive to slight changes, i.e. - much less noise more gain to read the changes. This would explain why the guys the big data statistical types are unable to understand why their methods work. Their assumptions assume wide variability and therefore requiring large sample sets to pick up on small improvements. For example, if a gun that is a .25 moa had a standard deviation of 10% you could pretty easily measure a change to .4 moa because that would place more than 90% of the shots outside of the 99% confidence interval off of .25. You don’t need a huge sample size to confirm that you’re falling out of tune, 2-3 shots could reliably show that you’re out of tune. Then applying prior experience and knowledge you would be able to make proper adjustments and then be able to test that you’re in tune again with a couple of shots.
Was enjoyable to listen. Some interesting concepts discussed. Shooting a Comp in Australia at a distance of 500m Called Fly shoot were we score and measure group size then add together for a total score. Understanding how to make our rifle consistently consistent to shoot a 25mm X (Fly) is a passion. Not sure I will worry about the paid subscription for a discussion on Tunners... my popcorn machine is broken... one day Erik might visit Aus and shoot a SSAA CF Fly shoot.
Welp, I've been in the power industry for almost 40 years. I know things about the combustion process of VOCs that most engineering disciplines wouldn't even suspect. The easiest little tid bit to remember is simply that water increases in volume by 1600 times when it transitions to steam. I'm going to let everyone discover the rest for themselves 🤙
Wow! So many great topics! I'm going to save this one and come back for reference. Good job.
Great conversation! Thanks Erik
Been waiting for this interview for sure. A tremendous amount of info but to me he talks like a politician in some aspects when you try to pin him down to a specific area, just one example on bullet pointing, you asked for a specific measuring step or function to achieve the proper meplat or best tip. His answer was it depends on what bullet your using and I agree but where and how to measure for this should have been answered and he just answered it depends... Again lots of info but no resolution to anything at least for me. Bryan is a VERY smart man for sure and I respect his knowledge but it seems to be sorta closed minded to others input or testing. Thank you Erik and Bryan for this video and interview it was an eye opening view. It depends!!
it’s because Bryan understands these questions are not black and white like we want them to be.
It is frustrating to grasp at first, but once you understand why he responds this way it will make you a much better precision shooter.
remember, if there were definitive answers to these questions they would have been figured out by now, but they haven’t been.
@@SigmaBallistics Yes, learn all the principles then apply them to your particular use case.
@@SigmaBallistics Sorry sir I don't drink that flavor, again he's a smart politician. I's not frustrating for me at all I take away what I need and I expect other do as well.
Kept hearing “all day long” 😊 made me smile
Wow! You asked about the bullet sorting question! Exactly what I wanted! So now that I’ve sorted 200 by base to ogive… no I’ll just redo 100 base to tip and compare the two.
I wish I could do what you guys do for a living, to be an “apprentice” to guys like you would be the coolest job out there
I'm sure this has already been covered in another comments, but truing your Kestrel (ballistic calculator) for each profile is important because all of the available chronographs will not be consistent across all manufactures and might not be precise. So by truing the Kestrel it is adjusting the true MV by using the known distance to the known bullet drop per the custom drag model. So if you put in a MV of 2900 and the known bullet drop from the Kestrel is say 30 MOA at a 1000 yards and the actual drop from live fire is 30.5 MOA then the MV is faster then 2900. When the POI of 30.5 is added into the Kestrel it will make the appropriate adjustment of the actual MV.
No tuner discussions 😂, as always awesome awesome awesome podcast 👌🏻
It's important to rank the variables. Some will have a much larger effect than others on group size. Start with the biggest variables and control what you are able to. Wind and shooter ability will be right at the top.
Hello, what is true for PRS or offhand shooting isn't the rule. I have the exact opposite approach. First, since I shoot with very light triggers from the most steady positions (prone or from a bench, with rear support on sandbags + bipod or tripod on the front), shooter ability is not in the first limiting factor. I would say wind reading and rifle+ammo overall accuracy are the two most important parameters of the equation. Since checking your gear overall accuracy is the easiest thing to do, that's what I always begin with, but there's another reason. Just suppose you have a bad barrel and/or bad quality bullets (supposed to have the best BC in the world), and you decide to test your skills at 600yds. Each time it will spit a bullet in a random direction you won't have any way to understand if it's you or the wind or anything else. No way to understand the reason of a poi shift on target = no way of improving your wind management.
I predict this will become the largest view count of all BTT interviews. Maybe within 10 days.
One of my friends shoots for applied ballistics you guys are awesome
Bullet seating depth of jump, jam or touching of the barrels rifling is the horizontal part of the group and the powder charge and type of powder is the vertical part of the group!
Takes:
-Abrasive barrel conditioning keeps velocities down better and possibly(?) gives more constant velocities
-loading the same powder charge led to fps increase of 200fps after the powder dried with desiccant pouch in the ammo can
-H4350 has 0.8% weight gain from 30% to 60% humidity
-Primers make big change to how the powder acts and affects MV SD/ES
What Eric said about an abrasive for break in is my approach. I use jb bore paste between 10 shots. My idea is to smooth the lands that were cut by the reamer. The reamer marks are across the bullet travel on the lands and catch jacket material.
Wouldn’t the argument be though that a copper bullet blistering down the barrel is going to do a pretty good job of naturally smoothing the barrel assuming you keep it clean in between the first few shots? I mean, that’s an insane amount of friction.
I always thought the barrel sped up because the copper fouling in the barrel filled, smoothed and even lubricated the barrel, up to a point, and would even increase pressure. Cleaning or removing any copper in the barrel would lose pressure and speed. These guys know their stuff.
Erik, I would recommend using Median as a measure vs. Average. Averages can and are very deceptive & can be blown with one shot. Median calculates group center with 50% of shots above center & 50% of shots below center. A much better measure for group.
As far as BR changes through the day, consider the Canadian sniper who placed his ammo in direct sunlight in order to get the velocity he needed to make the record shot. Temp is one obvious variable through the day.
In a normally distributed relationship, the median and the average are the same. Obviously that requires an appropriately sized sample size. However, mathematically you have to use the average to calculate sd, so while I’m not disagreeing with you. It really depends on what you’re looking at and how you’re going to test it.
You are absolutely right when it comes to reading groups. If you have four shots grouping, and one straying, versus, a tighter group with a smaller moa but a much more random pattern. It would be good to further test the 4 that grouped before writing it off.
@@xstevenx8132 👍
You can measure the speed at two target distances using radar cronos and calculate a bc or you can use a bc calculated from shape ogive length tail angle etc
There are no arc’s in cnc interpolation between two axis like milling an curve between x&y on a Milling machine. But here is a true arc made with a boring bar! Hence thats why you bore a engine cylinder and don’t interpolate one.
Another great interview.
When breaking in a barrel, your work hardening the stainless steel , try using a 1/8 drill on stainless sheet and put drill on fast , ok the drill will burn and the stainless instantly hardens , when we run a barrel in we are work hardening the core using bullets , so we don’t want to aneal imperfections into the base metal , so as we smooth the surface ( and harden) we clean as much as we can , until no copper gets left between shots then groups of shots , Dan Australia
Great episode.. Lot of good info to think about.
I am not as experienced as you guys but at 45-46min in the interview where you are talking about barrel speeding up and slowing down, i have notice when you do a rapid firing during a stage of say 10 shots, the barrel is hotter more towards the middle of the barrel. So the idea of friction and powder burn is very logical to me, but like i said, i am far from the experience level here. Erick, great videos and content. Thank you.
In the end BC is a continuous function of velocity as well as the shape and Sectional Density.
The BC at Vo=0 ft/sec equal to 1
No cleaning needed. I shoot 6.5/284 and I rebarrel at 500 rounds, since throat evaporates enough that I can no longer shoot high X-Counts at LR.
At around 19:00 in, Mr Litz said 38 thou. He accidentally divided 75 by 2 instead of multiplying. He meant 150 thou as in 0.1” to 0.4” is 95% of groups if your average is 1/4.
That was a fantastic conversation!!
Looking forward to the next one
Just getting into hand loading and long range shooting. Very interesting thanks
I like to load some cast bullets. Then for the last shot I have one that is lubed with fine valve grinding compound. Then I cut slips in a 1/4" wood dowel and put multiple cloth patches with more fine compound and go with the rifling. For deep cleaning I pull the barrel and plug both ends with my fingers. I have a bottle of mercury I pour in and tip the barrel for an hour, then pour it back to reuse.
And that is why I rarely buy a used rifle 😉
@@redrock425
Did you know that you can fire a 243 in an 06?
.There are a lot of postings regarding upcoming testing of tuners by Bryan.
The testing of tuners he did is discussed in detail in his book "Modern Advancements in Long Range Shooting - Volume III" copyright - 2022.
He fired over 1800 rounds in both rimfire and center fire rifles. Many are going to find the results interesting,
Thank you for the knowledge
Okay I think I have a theory on why Bryan is right. You shoot 1,500 rounds with the same ammo you wear out the throat as well as the lands in the barrel. Throughout the life of the barrel the bullet is moving slower or faster through the barrel. So for instance when we “foul” out a barrel the pressure is increased and the barrel produces more speed throughout the life cycle of the barrel. This changes harmonics and if you figure out the effects of exactly how much wear causes these speeds and the speed increase then you can come up with a formula to adjust a tuner to be very reliable with group sizes. 100 rounds baseline my rifle starts to increase 45 fps. I clean and I lose 65 fps. My groups from 10 shots to 99 are .25” average while once I get over this 100th round I start getting .75” groups and 75 fps difference in rounds. I think that a barrel has a limit on how many rounds you can put through it before it starts increasing velocity and this is why the benchrest guys clean so regularly because they have a number of rounds they know they can shoot before this increase in pressure.
Another reason why benchrest shooters reload at the range is that they can use always the same 5 "good" brass cases to make their groups. After testing years ago, some of them saw they made tighter 5 shot groups by using always the same case and reload it between the shots. Now they sort and reject brass that causes flyers before competitions.
This was great. I was looking forward to the tuner discussion, but y’all covered a lot of good ground. Please link us to his podcast when you do it. I’m also looking forward to your discussion with Quintan from Hornady. Listening to Bryan today makes me think those two have quite a bit of common ground on the sample size and seating depth issues in particular.
Quinlan*
I wonder if they will agree on the best ballistic solver. 😜
Lol, probably not that. Or what match bullets is best. But maybe they can agree on a few things. You should ask Quinlan about tuners!
@@BelieveTheTarget or will those ballistic silvers agree?
@@BelieveTheTarget could you 3d print a barrel with Inconel
Bryan Litz is like the Jordan Peterson of rifle ballistics.
Litz is incredibly smart, talented and insightful. Peterson is a babbling drug addled grifter that’s done so much Benzodiazepines and Klonopin that it’s permanently damaged his brain. They are absolutely nothing alike.