Well, there is a comment here somewhere about an audio store that put out a video trying to show the difference in cables for what that is worth, but no a/b, abx testing. Thanks again for commenting
@@VideoArchiveGuy thats the issue. "Just listening" is prone to a lot of bias and brain tricks. "Blind testing" involves just listening with an experiment design to remove biases.
I cant believe how many tone deaf followers there are. Im sure these people also could not tell the difference between milk and orange juice in a blind taste test.
I don’t think so. Maybe with speaker cables but with interconnects, you can definitely hear differences. Now whether or not those differences mean more expensive or if those differences matter enough to spend the extra $$$, that’s something every audiophile will have to figure out with their own ears.
Thanks for taking the time to comment and you are correct for the most part- some audiophiles do see the advantage of equalizers as part of DSP that may be in their streamer...
This know-nothing audiohead has made and used, 12-14 gauge pure stranded copper wire since the vinyl bug bit some 50 years ago...SFSG. I'm still using them, the only thing I've done is make them shorter and replace the connectors, twice.
Thanks for your "tongue in cheek comment". I was not aware until after the video posted, but in their owner's manuals (60's and 70's, I believe)McIntosh listed the length and gauge of wire that should be used to connect their amps with speaker, and I don't think they ever went as high as 12gauge.....
The switch box and short home made cables would have to be eliminated, and your system would have to be a much higher resolution set up to be able to hear any difference, and your room would likely have to be treated to absorb reflections, and would need ideal placement of high end speakers. Because until you can hear things like soundstage, image front back and sides, separation of instruments, ect. you will not hear a difference between wire. THATS what the higher grade wires are all about. Myself I use different brands, always a high quality oxygen free copper. Stay away from anything Chinese, that stuff uses wire that came from a melting pot of different metals, whatever they could find in scrap. They make it look nice though.
Thanks for your thoughts on this issue, but I respectully disagree with you except for the OFC copper should be used. But but accident, the 12gauge wire I used for this test was copper covered aluminum, and still no difference in sound or measurements. After this video was posted I saw an excellent video from Audioholics where they measured some speaker cables and there is very little difference between the expensive ones and the regular wire. If there is no electrical difference I can't see how they can sound different... I can't get rid of the switch box or small cables and do an a/b test where you can switch between things immediately, which you need to do as our audio memory is not that good for trying to hear such small difference. I have another cable test video tomorrow....
Actually, the owner of the cables got them with a lot of other things and does not have his nose in the clouds. Most of the audio friends I have would never purchase a cable that expensive and are do not snotty. Thanks for the comment
To a certain extent, yes, but if your speakers are drawing a lot of current you would want to make sure that your cables were not going to cause much or any voltage drop.
I would say that many of them- at least the ones that I have met, have not complained of tinnitus. The one involved in this test has great hearing, though he is not a professional musician. I think the point is that many of them- those without hearing problems- have a good ear for sound??
I did a demo with a guy that said cables don't make a difference, I played one tune with the cables connected and the the second tune with them dis connected. There was a night and day difference....
I have a quite nice new Mcintosh / Sonus Faber system. I just couldn’t bring myself to spend a bunch more money on cables. I went to the car stereo shop down the street and said I wanted their best cable.. They sold me 40 feet of 10 gauge for $40 and said they’ve tried more expensive a few times and could never hear a difference.
As they say, a fool and their money are easily parted. On another channel " if something can be asserted without evidence, it can also dismissed without evidence.
I use to own a 8 gauge Monster cable until a friend went to my house with a Transparent Wave which is the most cheap of them 400 hundred for the pair, next day I bought one because I would not be happy with the Monster, difference in cables cannot be measure, the definition is not measurable, if you didn't hear the difference your wallet will be happier
Why are you not measuring these when hooked up to a speaker and amplifier? The resistance will affect the relationship of speaker with amplifier. Especially if you have a speaker with a wild impedance sweep and an amplifier with a crazy low output impedance (.000065) / super high damping factor (123,076 @ 8 ohms) like a Purifi Eigentakt.
Thanks for taking the time to comment/question. The Purifii amp you mention with such a high damping factor (doubt that is real), would care very little about the speaker cable unless it is was really high. I just looked at something simple like the frequency response and whether there was any distortion introduced, of which there was none. Did not bother to measure the resistance as it would be much less than my meter is capable of measuring, maybe 0.1ohm. Damping factor is difficult to measure when it is very high.
"Cheap audio components, inexperienced listeners, flawed test, mono speaker listening"; have we not heard it all 😂 Fact: supernatural hearing is defeated by going blind. Saying that, it would be interesting to form a panel of blind people, as many of them have improved hearing. "Our study shows that the brains of blind individuals are better able to represent frequencies," one of the team, psychology graduate student Kelly Chang, explains. "For a sighted person, having an accurate representation of sound isn't as important because they have sight to help them recognise objects, while blind individuals only have auditory information.
4K for ten feet? That distance isn't long enough to need anything fancy. That 4K would be better spent on high quality speakers so you can actually hear something different. Glad to see people testing blind and actually testing the harmonic distortion instead of just believing hype from a company.
Thanks so much for appreciating my little attempt at doing both an a/b test and the measurements portion as well. It was not perfect, but sure has touched an audio nerve.
Well I'm not suprised; no mentioning of cable lifters, nor whether the cables were burned in,-and how long that took-, and no mentioning of any participating certified trained listeners.
Wonder what type of solder they use in their amplifier, solid Gold or platinum maybe.its the price for being stupid with too much money and not listening in science class. They deserve what they get
Thanks for taking the time to comment. I totally disagree with you, as would lots of research by companies like Harmon, who did studies showing that trained listeners preferred speaker with a flat frequency response, just to name one.
Most of the differences that I hear between different cables is in the presentation of the soundstage, so designing a test that eliminates the distinctions seems pointless.
Thanks for the comment, though I would disagree with you about the soundstage comment. I think @Douglas_Blake_579 discussed the advantage of doing the test in mono amongst these comments...
Thanks for the comment and I guess there is the fact that you can tell someone that you are using $8k speaker cables along with your $20k amp and $35k speakers and $10k preamp- I guess that is worth something. The majority of commentors thus far would agree there is not going to be much added (sonically) with such expensive cables.
Nicely done Scott. 40 year electronics technician on this end. The results were, as expected of any listening test, very close to guesswork, which tells us they were trying to please you, not hearing actual differences. But hey... it's just wire, what did they expect? A few years ago my little audio group did a test... we put up a bedsheet to hide the system and gathered the group for a "Mystery A/B test" we asked them only to note any differences they heard and which they preferred ... nobody knew what was being tested. We played short clips on A then repeated them on B ... with half a dozen clips. The total test time was about an hour since we didn't want to wear out their patience. It went like this... clip plays ... behind the curtains we very quickly made our change... clip plays again. People make their notes. Then the next clip... The final vote was down to almost a tie between A and B with nobody noting "same". But here's the thing... We didn't change anything. My buddy and I got behind the curtain, made some hushed chatter, moved the curtain a bit with our arms and butts... then played the next clip. The resulting discussion pretty much put an end to that group's long debates about cables and sound quality.
Pretty interesting experiment and somewhat predicable results to a certain extent. I do hide things as best I can by covering the cables up so you don't know what is B or C in my case. I appreciate you sharing this!
@@vintageaudioreviewIf you are interested in facts you may want to try that same thoughts process with MIT ACC268 speaker cable consoles. This will show how lacking in knowledge and know how of doing almost ALL ARE.
@@davidcross890 Not exactly ... the system behind the curtains was a $15,000 setup, owned by one of the group's members and, in any case, we were looking for differences not qualitative analysis.
The snake oil business is alive and well in the high end audio industry. I have tried the high end interconnects and speaker wire and it's all b.s. Grabbed some ofc wire and Amazon Basics interconnects and there is no difference between the Audio Quest or Kimber Kable that I foolishly spent $$$ on.
@@Douglas_Blake_579 I am thinking about the folks that have large monoblocks up on some stand (fancy most likely) where the wires would be readily seen. This is not the case for the majority of us, and in those cases it is probably somewhat important from an aesthetic (and maybe ego) point of view to have "nice looking" speaker cables- I certainly get that point of view. (chuckling) I imagine the speaker cables would probably be up on risers to improve the sound, though...
What you hear in better quality cables often is not the tone, not an analysis of the bass, the midrange or the treble, it's in hearing the improved detail, transparency and spatiality of the 3-dimensional stereo image. But in order to hear those differences it comes down to setup. If a system is set up to present an accurate presentation of the stereo image then those differences can be become much more clear. If the system is not set up for that and one is merely listening for differences in tonality, whether they hear more or less bass, if vocals sound drastically different, or that a hi-hat is transformed, then you are not going to hear a huge difference. To reap the benefits of quality cables you need to have a properly set up system to maximize the stereo image and often the set up should include proper room treatments. You may say then, well why the heck do i need to go through all of that work to be able to hear differences in cables? You don't. It all depends on what you want. I say to each their own then. There is a market for higher quality cables because it caters to those who have a system set up to benefit from those cables. If you don't want to hear the differences cables make then just stick with the setup you have and carry on. For those of us who are maximizing the reproduction of the stereo image we will then reap the benefits of higher quality cabling.
You put some time & thought into your comments and I appreciate that. There have been a few arguments about cables effecting the stereo image, but basically just a slight movement of your head will effect the image more than the cables....but you can spend your money however you want in your search for audio nirvana- that is part of the hobby.
@@vintageaudioreview Thanks. I would not argue that the differences cables make is gigantic. But it's at times quite noticeable in the right systems and it comes down to how much you want to spend for those small improvements and what they mean to you. I don't have the money for super expensive cables but even if I did I don't have interest in them. All my cabling - speaker cables, interconnects, digital and power all add up to less $1k and that's the most I want t spend but to me they are worth it because they have all made a very clear and meaningful difference but I'm not interested in spending more for a tiny bit more of a difference. I know that you could reply and say that all of your cables add up to less than $50 total, I get it.
@@sean_heisler I have no problem on spending whatever you want on cables, and $1k does not sound too bad at all. Sometimes the cables look neat and have a good feel to them. If your cables are exposed then looks can play a part for some. It will be interesting to see the comments on another cable test I did that will be out in a few weeks.
@sean_heisler In reality, the quality of the 3-dimensional Imaging and Soundstage performance of loudspeakers have absolutely nothing to do with what speaker cables you are using. The properties, quality, or "precision" of the Imaging and Soundstage are determined first by what is captured or mixed into the recording itself, and secondly by the design and quality of the speakers themselves plus the acoustics of the room they are placed in. There is a third very important factor... In order for our auditory system to perceive a more accurate/more focused soundstage that reproduces exactly what is captured or mixed into the recording, the single most important factor is that the Amplitude Response (Level vs. Frequency, or "Frequency Response") Between the Right AND Left loudspeakers be as Closely Matched and as similar as possible At Your Listening Position. An imbalance between the Frequency Response of the Left vs. Right speakers will make it difficult to achieve good imaging. Achieving good imaging and soundstage performance with loudspeakers that are placed in a non-symmetrical room can be problematic. For example, when you have your speakers placed in a living room in an open-plan home where one speaker is in a corner with both a wall to the side and behind the speaker, while the other speaker has the same wall behind it, but no side wall because that side of the room is open to another adjacent living area such as the kitchen or dining area. In this scenario, due to the difference in reflections as well as the difference in boundary-loading and "room gain" between the left and right speakers, the Left vs. Right Frequency Response will be quite different, and the imaging/soundstage performance will suffer. The ratio of the direct sound from the speakers vs. the reflected sound from the room will also have an effect on the quality of the imaging, especially if one side is different than the other. Excellent imaging and soundstage performance is easier to achieve when you eliminate or mitigate most of the room's acoustic interactions and influence on the sound that you hear from the loudspeakers, and is the primary reason that the majority of recording, mixing, and mastering engineers generally use "nearfield" studio monitors while producing the music that we all listen to. Listening to speakers that were designed to be precisely matched to each other in regards to frequency response and dispersion, as well as listening to them in a nearfield environment provides for the most accurate reproduction of the imaging and soundstage in the recording, NOT speaker cables! This is another reason why even relatively inexpensive earbuds or headphones usually do a good job of providing good Left-to-Right imaging and focus. However, they usually lack some of the crosstalk and HRTF/head-shadowing imaging cues we hear when listening to loudspeakers in a typical room which are time-arrival based (ITD) and help to provide a perception of Depth and "Room Ambiance" or the size of the performance venue. Swapping speaker cables has NO affect on ANY of these properties. If for some reason you do have poorly designed speaker cables that alter the frequency response of the speakers due to excessive resistance, capacitance, inductance, etc, when you switch to a different pair of speakers cables that do not have this issue, even though the overall FR might be slightly different between each set of cables, BOTH speakers will STILL BE MATCHED to each other because you are using the same SET of cables for both speakers. And in reality, moving your head just 12" up/down/left/right from the MLP has far more potential to change the response and imaging/soundstage performance compared to any differences another set of speaker cables will make!
On high resolutions system everything can be heard! You DONT have high resolution system. So if you dont hear difference, than what is the point of this stupid video??? Everything can be heard….
Okay ... time to "out" this Transparent Cable nonsense... I've just sent Scott a link to an article where they did open the expensive cable to see what is inside... (I can't post it here... but he can) The big blob contains a 2.5 microhenry coil in series with the red speaker lead and a 1000pf (0.1uf) capacitor with a 31 ohm resistor in series across the red and black wires. That is about $5.00 worth of parts. It forms a very ineffective LC low pass network that in simulation causes a 0.5db drop at 20khz. ... and does nothing else. This is commonly called a Zobel network and it's primary function is preventing amplifier oscillations above about 50khz... but any decent amplifier already has that built in. No way on earth they're worth $4,000 each.
Thanks Doug! Here is the link he mentioned: www.instructables.com/How-to-make-a-Transparent-Audio-Reference-XL-Speak/ I did not notice any drop off in the Frequency response that I measured. I am wondering what the criteria is for "tuning" that they employ?
@@vintageaudioreview Dollars against Donut Holes ... You send it in, they send it back. The article contains pictures of the opened blob... it's all potted. The X-Ray is particularly telling.
Hey! I like that you did this test. The underlying issue you were testing is if an 8K cable sounds much better than a DIY home made cable. Note that while you did see a measurable difference between the two, you discounted it because it could be within the 'noise' or testing error. But in your test, there are a couple of issues. The biggest is that you only set up a single speaker for the test rather than create a stereo image. Of all of the people talking about the coloration of the music depending on amp, DAC or other hardware of the speaker... they also claim that the cables can also add to this. That there may be subtle differences with the overall sound image based on the cable. (e.g. sound stage, separation, focus... etc ...) So unless you ran two speakers ... you lose that. Overall, I would argue against spending $$$$ on cables, but I'd also argue about going too cheap. OFC is a must. Then there's the gauge and shielding of the cable wires, and your connectors. I suggest that you look at the retail cost of your components. Depending on length and quality of cable... you can spend up to $300.00 to make high quality stereo cables. But $300.00 is much less than $8K which would be better spent on other components to give you a better sound. Even in my small room, my cables are ~20ft in length because I have to run them behind cabinets and out of sight. (Hence the higher cost) Just my $0.02.
Thanks so much for taking the time to comment- with reasonable ones. I get your take on using two speakers for the "separation", but I don't believe there is any scientific basis for such a claim. Both speaker cables, assuming the lengths are pretty close to the same, would effect the signal the same amount. My a/b switching box does not have enough inputs and outputs to allow for a stereo testing of the cables is another reason I did not do that. I am pretty sure I went over the cost of what I used on my cables, and I screwed up by using copper clad aluminum wire instead of OFC wire, which made the point even better according to many of the comments. So far the cables that I made have been holding up well...
@@vintageaudioreview Hi, scientifically speaking, you already tested the cable which showed a measurable difference, albeit a small one. And that's key. 8K vs ~$100.00 (rounding up) That's $7,900 that could go towards better speakers, amp, dac, etc... which will impact your sound. The point of the A/B testing isn't scientific but more subjective and its the imaging of the sound that may be noticeable. Oh and I'm not saying there was anything wrong with what you made. When you go to source your wire, you're limited to what's available in your local brick/mortar store... in terms of quality and wire gauge. If you're looking at 10-12ft or less, you could go w 14AWG and longer 12AWG. If you go online, you can get better wire if you want. If you look at some of the UA-cam videos, you'll see people using Magomi ?sp? 4 wire cable and then pairing them. So 2 12 AWG would give you 10AWG. Then on to better banana plugs and you've got really good cables. Overall, I would encourage people to make their own cables and avoid the 'snake oil' stuff.
@@michaelsegel8758 How about considering a/b testing as a scientific way of doing subjective testing 😄 There are certainly some good videos on UA-cam making your own cables. If you find some McIntosh owner's manuals from the 70's, they often tell you what gauge "zipcord" you should use to connect your amp to your speakers depending on how far away they are. 12 gauge OFC speaker wire is going to work well for darn near everyone- The idea of using Magomi 4 wire cable is probably fine and might be a fun project, I suppose.
Before you start. Your cable won't work fine for girls bedroom after a week of Listening. That is when you find out. Now the crazy price is another story.
You should live for a week or 2 weeks with the over the top cable That is when you notice. Also when you tin your wire. Sound has to pass over the tin making A Dam no tin better sound blind or A , B test are. B. S LIVE with the good wire. You will miss it. Blind test on DAC,s Amps. Easier
I've always know that there would be no difference, but you will still get people say you can not measure the audile difference of the more expensive cable. $8k will get you a nice audio system and a 65 inch Tv. 😉
My little system (small but not limited) came in just under $1,500 with a 50 inch TV, NUC configured as an HTPC, 4tb of storage, UGreen DAC, Fosi TB10D amp and Pioneer tower speakers. A little tinkering with part values and some polyfil and voila decent system that will last for many years. Beyond that lies the dreaded world of diminishing returns. One of the local efetes got wind of what I am using and spent quite the effort running me into the ground about it. Cost me a few customers, too. So finally I ends up nose to nose with hiim: "You think my system is trash? Why don't you come over and actually listen to it before you dump on it..." He came, he listened, he went silent, he left and I haven't heard from him or about him since. The truth of the matter is that cheap audio is getting better and better audio is getting cheaper all the time.
@@vintageaudioreview A lot of progress in Class D has happened recently. With the introduction of the TPA32xx series chips TI has pretty much revolutionized it. These chips can be found in powered studio monitors, sound reinforcement, public address, high end home theatre... and, yes, even in high end stereo gear. The ICE Power modules everyone rages about started with TPA3251 chips for the 50w/ch and TPA3255 for the 100w/ch units. The higher power ones are, of course designed with discrete components. Then there are the Purifi and Hypex modules everyone rages about. The Chinese versions of these amplifiers are basically stripped down versions of the more feature laden (read "expensive") versions you find elsewhere. The smaller sizes are possible by moving the power supply outside the chassis and the relatively small number of parts needed to make the chip happy. Miniaturization at it's finest. As long as they're not using fake or underrated parts, they're no less capable than the "big boy" versions you find in other equipment. The thing is the Chinese manufacturers are still learning how to use these chips to advantage. For example: I recently did a "deep dive" examination on the Fosi TB10D amplifier. Nice compact unit with tone controls. There were a couple of minor problems with overvoltage on the reset pin (easily fixed) and they had placed the output coils right against the heat sink, causing all kinds of bizarre eddy current problems. I pulled out my hacksaw and took one fin off the heatsink to create some space between it and the coils. The result... one sweet sounding amplifier that mostly runs at room temperature on 36 volts, producing 60w/ch RMS on 8 ohms with a flat response from 5hz to 25khz and distortion below the 0.01% threshold of my current test equipment at 99% output power. That's better than about 80% of the stuff these big huffy audiophiles are using. Of course the big advantage is that it, along with my HTPC, hard drive, DAC and their assorted power bricks fit nicely into a vacant drawer cavity in my TV stand. So what's not to like?
@@Douglas_Blake_579 Have only listened toto the little Aiyma amps, but they sound just fine to me and a few others that have heard them...most likely will be the subject of another a/b test....
I bought my first good system from an audiophile store that opened up across the street from the restaurant I was the chef at the time. We fed the guys after hours a few times as they were getting open so we had a good relationship. I don't think I paid much more than cost for the little system I bought from them. One day a big-money buyer was auditioning some Wilson speakers and switching between Nordost and Transparent cables. Both cost exponentially more than my 2 channel system. One of the owners turned to me in the other room and said it didn't really matter because both were just a tax on the gullible. They all used DIY stuff in their own homes and had settled on the fact that you can't convince someone buying $45K speakers that $50 cables will essentially sound the same as $5000 cables.
Thanks so much for sharing your story and I like calling them a "tax on the gullible". As I said in the video, the cables look cool and you can spend your $$'s however you want, but when you tell me they are going to sound better I am going to be doubtful.
*Sorry, but this test was flawed.* And I am actually surprised that none of the participants pointed this out. By listening to only 1 speaker, and not a pair, you are missing/ignoring a huge aspect of sound reproduction, and that is of course, the reproduction of spatial cues. Which contributes to soundstage width and depth, the ambience of the acoustic space the recording was made in. Imaging of the musicians within that acoustic space, the layering of the soundstage, etc. The human auditory system is capable of hearing interaural time differences as low as 7-10 microseconds. This is an evolved survival tool; our ancestors needed to know where (distance, direction, height, etc) in space a noise in the forest was coming from, to determine if it was a threat or food, for example. Obviously We leverage this aspect of our auditory system: to hear a soundstage, the ambience of the acoustic space where the musicians were playing, the location of the musicians within that soundstage, etc. Let me state that I took part in a double blind test about 4-5 years ago comparing speaker cables, and I was able to consistently pick out 1 over the other. The cheapest cable we compared were a pair of $100 Blue Jeans cables, and the most expensive, a pair of $4,000 Purist Audio. The way I was able to pick out 1 cable over the other, was by listening to the soundstage size and depth, the specificity of the musicians within the soundstage, and other spatial cues. Better speaker cables are better at keeping those very tiny (7-10 microseconds) time intact. I could add, which I may later, the reason why some cables are better at retaining these spatial cues than others.
Thanks for taking a lot of time to express your thoughts and the idea of using just one speaker and the spatial cues, was addressed pretty well by @douglas_blake_579 somewhere amongst the multitude of comments for this video.
@@pandstar I am going to copy and past his comment here for you from 2weeks ago: Since the topic of Subjective testing in stereo keeps coming up... (This is a re-post of one of my comments under another video) === 1) Why you cannot subjectively evaluate any part of an audio system. (Don't even think about arguing with me until you try this simple experiment.) Take any stereo setup in any room, no matter how good or bad, then play monophonic pink noise through the speakers, at a "conversational level" ... Find the spot where the sound is directly straight in front of you. Now, slowly move your head about 3 inches left or right of that ideal centre position... What did you hear? When you moved off of the dead centre between the speakers, you heard the sound get a little brighter and a bit louder; what an audiophile would describe as "presence". As you moved further from centre by the first tiny bit, if you went left, the apparent sound source went right, then as you move further it will suddenly jump to the left; "soundstage". Then if you continue by moving your speakers, you will notice, the further apart your speakers are, or the closer you sit to them, the worse this gets. This is a phenomenon known as "Mid-Field Cancellation" and there is absolutely nothing anyone can do about it. It is caused by the difference in distance from you left speaker to your left ear and to your right ear. Of course this also happens with the right speaker, as well. At about 1600 to 2200hz, depending on the size of your head, the sound in the far ear is behind that in the near one, it is late and it's out of phase... and it cancels. Now we know that a move of just an inch or so off of perfect centre changes what you hear. The question is, how often, when evaluating a new speaker, cable, device... have you plopped your butt back down into your chair an inch off from your previous listening position only to judge the new wateveryacallit as being "more open and present with a better soundstage"? What are you actually judging... the device or your current listening position? 2) Why you cannot subjectively judge tonal balance: (And again ... don't even bother disagreeing until you try this) Play a monophonic tone at about 10khz from both your speakers. This will be very piercing so keep the volume down. Now slowly rock your head a little bit toward one speaker then the other. What do you hear? Yep, you heard the tone get louder and quieter as you moved. You probably also noticed that it's left-right balance shifted cyclically as you moved, first favouring the near side then the far side. This is "Treble Cancellation" and it is caused by differences in the distance between your head and the speakers. At 10khz the in-room wavelength is about 1.3 inches or 3.3cm ... a move of just half that much will actually put your tweeters out of phase at your ears causing a dip in level and a shift in direction. Again... even the slightest shift in listening positions will change your perception of the sound. 3) The BIG question.... Now ask how many millions of dollars have been spent because of these simple facts of life? Measurements would have confirmed these simple differences are or are not real. === Both measurement and listening tests should be used together.
Do I think speaker cables sound different? Yes, but it is about the smallest change you can make. Do I think DIY can sound great. Yeh. That is what I use. I think interconnects make a much bigger difference. I find my diy far better than any commercial cable I have heard, but I have not heard many.
I am guessing that your DIY are speaker cables and that you did not spend more than $50 on them, and you don't need to try anything else if they are doing the job. Thanks for the comments!
@@vintageaudioreview Yes. My system is entirely DIY and the speaker cables cost $20 for the wire. Basically a litz cable made from 24strands of 24 gauge Teflon insulated copper.
The good old snake oil of speaker cables . Still waiting in gr research’s ab video comparison for his so called speaker cables for the goods . Sometimes money buys you good looking cable bling but won’t buy brains
Every time a high-end cable is tested and the results are "no difference" (which seems like every test outside the manufacturer's lab) the "Your system, ears, room, electricity, and/or snacks lack in these ways, obscuring the obvious benefits ..." name-calling and handwaving fanboys come out in force. If the "obvious benefits" are only obvious with the highest of high-end systems, isn't it slimy and bordering on immoral to sell me something this expensive that I have no chance of enjoying? Perhaps the manufacturers should have a Minimum Requirements list (like Microsoft publishes each time a new version of Windows comes out) so as to avoid disappointment and outright failure. As any scientist will tell you if something can't be independently verified (which requires the manufacturer to share all the details of the testing and methodology) then the claim isn't a fact.
I really appreciate your taking the time to expound on this video. Interesting idea about having a minimum requirement, which thinking about it, would include everything from speakers to the room..and maybe even a hearing test...I have no problem with someone wanting to purchase something so expensive if they can afford it- like owning a Rolex when a $100 Casio will keep just as good as time.
It always seems, if the really expensive component doesn't prevail in these sort of A/B tests, the response from the manufacturer or salesman of overpriced gear is always...." well, your system just isn't resolving enough to "hear " the difference.....🙄
I don't like to refer to folks as audiophools, but there I times I just wonder about certain claims that are made about gear sounding better after tweaking certain things, but most folks that do, don't claim they are superior or their gear is superior for the most part....- thanks for the comment!
Since the topic of Subjective testing in stereo keeps coming up... (This is a re-post of one of my comments under another video) === 1) Why you cannot subjectively evaluate any part of an audio system. (Don't even think about arguing with me until you try this simple experiment.) Take any stereo setup in any room, no matter how good or bad, then play monophonic pink noise through the speakers, at a "conversational level" ... Find the spot where the sound is directly straight in front of you. Now, slowly move your head about 3 inches left or right of that ideal centre position... What did you hear? When you moved off of the dead centre between the speakers, you heard the sound get a little brighter and a bit louder; what an audiophile would describe as "presence". As you moved further from centre by the first tiny bit, if you went left, the apparent sound source went right, then as you move further it will suddenly jump to the left; "soundstage". Then if you continue by moving your speakers, you will notice, the further apart your speakers are, or the closer you sit to them, the worse this gets. This is a phenomenon known as "Mid-Field Cancellation" and there is absolutely nothing anyone can do about it. It is caused by the difference in distance from you left speaker to your left ear and to your right ear. Of course this also happens with the right speaker, as well. At about 1600 to 2200hz, depending on the size of your head, the sound in the far ear is behind that in the near one, it is late and it's out of phase... and it cancels. Now we know that a move of just an inch or so off of perfect centre changes what you hear. The question is, how often, when evaluating a new speaker, cable, device... have you plopped your butt back down into your chair an inch off from your previous listening position only to judge the new wateveryacallit as being "more open and present with a better soundstage"? What are you actually judging... the device or your current listening position? 2) Why you cannot subjectively judge tonal balance: (And again ... don't even bother disagreeing until you try this) Play a monophonic tone at about 10khz from both your speakers. This will be very piercing so keep the volume down. Now slowly rock your head a little bit toward one speaker then the other. What do you hear? Yep, you heard the tone get louder and quieter as you moved. You probably also noticed that it's left-right balance shifted cyclically as you moved, first favouring the near side then the far side. This is "Treble Cancellation" and it is caused by differences in the distance between your head and the speakers. At 10khz the in-room wavelength is about 1.3 inches or 3.3cm ... a move of just half that much will actually put your tweeters out of phase at your ears causing a dip in level and a shift in direction. Again... even the slightest shift in listening positions will change your perception of the sound. 3) The BIG question.... Now ask how many millions of dollars have been spent because of these simple facts of life? Measurements would have confirmed these simple differences are or are not real. === Both measurement and listening tests should be used together.
Well put once again, Professor. Having the a/b switching done by the remote controlled switch does help in eliminanting changing the user's head position to a certain extent, but even that is not perfect.....
@@Douglas_Blake_579 To be honest, that was mainly due to the limitations of my switch box plus I was looking for tonal differences and not concerned about anything else that would have been hard to hear.....
I can tell the value of audio equipment just by looking at the price tag. Seriously. The more expensive it is, the more amazing it sounds. Don't let anybody tell you otherwise. ;-)
I appreciate the comment, though I and many others would disagree with you, as would most of the science. But people can spend the money on whatever floats their boat, I suppose.
@@lepidoptera9337 Ok, I am at my PC working on my next video and at 1st thought it was sarcasm, but then I didn't. Earlier this week I had a similar comment on the RCA cable test video, but I caught that one. But I know people (audio folks) that do think the more expensive it is, the better- at least to a point. Thanks again for the humorous comment!
@@vintageaudioreview There is so much nonsense on the internet that it drowns out even attempts at humor, doesn't it? The sad part is that there is actually very good audio equipment at very reasonable price points nowadays. All this "high end" stuff does, at the end of the day, only get in the way of the music. Peace!
I just think people need to stay away from audiophile dealers and not be talked into spending ridiculous amount of money on products they don't actually need.
Thanks for taking a moment to comment. I would agree with you other than I am sure there are several folks who can well afford such expensive cables and would do so just for their looks, which is their prerogative....
Thanks for doing this test of speaker cables, I wonder if you have seen this video of another speaker cable test, and did you hear a difference between the two cables in the video? ua-cam.com/video/bvbP2uu0U0M/v-deo.html
Thanks for the comment and I was aware of that video. W/out trying to disparage another youtube channel, I always dismiss any attempt to try to recreate what they are hearing vs what you are hearing on your computer or sound system, regardless of they used to record the demo. I only will play music to show that something is working, or maybe how the meters work, and never to try to convey the quality of sound, which for most UA-cam would be mp3 quality unless you subscribe to their HD service. My test allows for an immediate comparison between the two cables- within a 100ms if I remember correctly. No connecting and reconnecting cables- that may take a minute or possibly longer. I don't have any products to sell so I don't have a vested interest in in expensive cables sounding better... not to mention that the science is not there for it...
I never understood these type of comparisons. Cables do sound different from each other regardless of what is on a scope. Capacitance is the biggest factor as well as the quality of materials. You choose cables based on the character of the hardware you are using and what direction you want to go sonically.
@@Douglas_Blake_579 I guess, it's just tubes, it's just a cartridge, just a turntable, etc. If the cables don't matter that much to the sound , then none of it does.
Thanks for your comment and I am glad that you like your cables, but saying they provide warmer sound would be something that would go against what I experienced in this video with the cables that I tested and used.
Not really. My comment refers to Kimber and MIT. Your video refers to Transparent and your own creation. Both things could be true. @@vintageaudioreview
Yes Kimber can sound bright which is why I preferred Audioquest. To me MIT cables are too warm sounding. These days people seem to like the Shinyata cables which I haven't yet heard in my system.
Nice to have a gathering of like-minded people. I've been experimenting with cables for 50 years and end up with about these results, but it's exciting to try. As for signal cables, then I have other experiences. Thank you for your dedication
I have the KEF R5 Metas and did an A/B on my system between Blue Jeans and Kimber Kable. I did notice a difference even using a Denon AVR. The Kimber sounded 'crisper' and the highs were cleaner whereas to me, the Blue Jeans sounded more like is forwarding mostly mid-range. But that's me.
Thanks for taking the time to comment, though I am skeptical about most cables making any difference, but as long as you are happy with your choice, that is what is most important.
@GermanRedrum The KEF R5 META are great speakers. 👍 In your comment above, you said that you "did an A/B on my system between Blue Jeans and Kimber Kable." Was that "A/B" comparison 100% un-sighted (i.e. "BLIND"), meaning that you never had any idea which cable was being used at any given time during the A/B listening test? And if so, did you consistently choose cable "A" vs cable "B", or vice versus, at least 9 out of 10 times in a row?
hmmm - - both testing cables ultimately running through another cable, which looks to be stock Monster, but no matter - but how can ya tell between anything when everything is going through that cable 1st, meaning before the speaker? Bad enough that the colorations of using a single speaker will also cloud the results, meaning the ONLY speaker and it's particular colorations and it's particular internal wiring, not that you're listening to a "single" speaker in mono. You're not only implying, but you're saying that the added in cable is only a couple of feet long so shouldn't affect much and that's not to mention a switching box along with multiple added connections of the extra cable and the box itself (oh, none of that will matter, right?) This must be a joke. Would have made more sense to test the switch box in and out of the system to get a hearing handle on what effects it has before introducing it like it doesn't even matter, right? I have to mention, perhaps a bit of nit picking, but I found it to be bothersome that you constantly refer to your "single" cable as costing 14 bucks but a "PAIR" of MIT's is 9K, a rather obvious attempt on your part to exacerbate the cost differences. You can delete my comment - but come on, I thought I was watching a comedy sketch and I'm not even arguing one cable possibly being better sounding than the other - I'm sighting that this test set up would veil ANY comparisons of any cables regardless of price or performance - a total waste of time for you and anyone that trekked to your testing room and a big shocker, actually not, that the results were more or less ambiguous. If this is a soap box for "don't spend money" - you made absolutely no argument. All on the other hand, it's not escaping me that you went to some trouble to do all of this, even though I think it's a very flawed test I do appreciate you posting it regardless. So, thank you anyway.
Thanks for your long commentary. First, I would never delete a post unless it was filled with profanity (has not happened) or is a spam post ("Make $4000/day doing...", which has happened a few times). I think you are kidding with my trying to exacerbate the cost differences between the cables but just saying one cable cost $14 and a pair was $8k- it was never my intent if that is was you thought. It was done at my friend's house and once again, is a get together for "audio" guys to eat, drink and meet. This is the 2nd a/b test and everyone enjoyed it, and I have two more planned. THere is no way that I know of to test compare directly, and it is only in mono, and the intent was to test the tonality. I certainly have no soap box on the subject that I was trying to promote and thought I said that you can spend your money however you want. Unless you can switch between the devices immediately- which the switch box allows for- I don't see how you can compare such small differences (IMHO). There is a paper of my measurements on the switch box, which show that it does not effect the electrical properties that much at all (it does have an effect), but both cables were switched through it and effected the same- I did mention both the switch box and the small cable as being in the path. I described the small cable- it was actually two stranded 12gauge OFC NOS Realistic brand cables per each "+" & "-" lead that were soldered together at the ends- lots of resistance I am sure. Once again, I do appreciate your comments and thoughtfulness with them.
@@vintageaudioreview Thanks for replying - umm, the delete thing is just me not wanting to "rock the boat" with your regular viewers - it's a negative comment and I appreciate that you read it and responded, but of course it would be fine by me if you dumped it, and it's fine by me if you dump this - frankly - the cable thing is only a "thing" to those that haven't experienced the vast range of cable offerings, perhaps ranging from that skinny wire Radio Shack used to sell as speaker wire (I bet you remember that stuff) all the way to reference level stuff and the need to rob a bank to buy it. Let's be honest with each other, do you really think your DIY cable and the Transparent Cable, both running in a reference level system would sound the same? I'm not even asking if you think one would be better than the other, but do you honestly think there would be no difference at all in how they sound? Hey, maybe there wouldn't be, but the test you conducted here would never, as I've already pointed out, reveal much of anything anyway - again, no matter because you'd have a hard time convincing me that, used as intended, you yourself would expect the differences to be indiscernible or that basically both cables would sound the "same", that is, no switch box, no patch cable, direct connections, decent system etc. And that's not to say that sure, both you and I know we're only talking stereo here - and yes, for the sake of my perspective, I'm currently running full loom high end reference cabling - but I'm from way back too - I've played around with all kinds of wire & cables including that skinny stuff, actually, thinking back, I used it for quite a long time in the 70's and like most stereo lovers of that time, I was none the wiser, I loved my system then, and I love my system now - it's about getting off on the music - I can feel musically emotional with music coming from my less than average stock FM radio while driving down the street in my GMC Savana van - and at the other end of that spectrum, and speaking only from personal experience I'm flat out saying that the skinny stuff, and most cables in between, all the way to Nordost Vahalla II which I'm running now simply do not sound the same - everything makes a difference, everything - and again, I'm not talking about one thing being "better" than the other - but there's no denying everything, including speaker wire can and will sound different without the need for a switch box to hear it - but - on the other hand and as I'm tying to express - and - I'd bet we'd both agree on - that is definitely not a pre-request for "enjoying" music. That idea however, does not dismiss that there are differences - and again, my personal perspective & philosophy doesn't include, for example, a listener with a 5K system running out and buying 12K speaker cables either - for sure and of course, that's a diminishing return thing, but that also doesn't mean one would likely hear no difference at all given that scenario, because that too would be equally unlikely regardless of the cost or that one would never experience that 12K value. Anyway, what I'm driving at is that I'm trying to be, or I am the guy standing in the middle ground - either extreme: cables do magic/ cables don't do anything - is simply not true - and yes, any sort of a difference, even minor ones can have some listeners running around expressing magic, I'm not one of those guys. I respect you and believe from watching you and conversing with you that you're too smart of a guy to commit to either of those extremes yourself, even in the light of your questionable testing video.
@@skip1835 As most of my reviews are how equipment performs after many years, I have not had anything like what has happened with this video- and it is a good thing I am retired as I do reply to every comment that I see, so it has taken many hours of time, which is fine as it keep me off the street at nights. Not even when I did the tube vs solid state amps did I get this reaction. Most of the comments have been more in favor with the cables not making as much a difference once they are say a decent gauge- for me that would be 12gauge, but good old OFC "zip cord" would do for the majority of folks (IMHO). Science does not support the claims of cables sounding different when paired with a decent amplifier- there was a suggestion that I should have done a null test measuring any difference between cables, but that would not have engaged my friends. If I had two expensive and huge monoblocks setting on my living room floor, having 14gauge zip cord is not going look very impressive- I get that. I would also agree that someone having a $5k stereo system is probably not going to run out and get these cables. I do have another a/b test coming up in the next few months that will involve a cable test, but not speaker cables, but will involve a switch box, though a different one and a small adapter will be needed- this one just kinda fell into my lap, so to speak and it will be interesting to see how that one goes... At heart I am an audio gear guy and just like what I am listening to sound pretty good- perfection will never be achieved and I am not one that will spend a lot of time trying to swap this out for that little bit more of the audio nirvana- but there are many folks that do and it is a hobby after all. I mentioned in a few comments that my group will be getting together in later Jan. for a/b test between two very different integrated amps, not really a right or wrong kinda thing, just which did you prefer......It is nice having an intelligent discourse with you, but I have to get back to assembling my Carver Cube....
@@vintageaudioreview Ha! too funny my friend, and I am assuming you're pulling my leg a bit - but ah, the old Carver Cube, was it a class H or something, I don't recall exactly - - true story, I once called into a hi-fi radio show that came out of Boston - at the time I was fortunate enough to have an original Ampzilla from GAS (Great American Sound) - anyway I posed the question as the Carver Cube was making the scene and generating a lot of curiosity - and oddly, driving the question was that the specs between the huge Ampzilla and Bob Carver's cube were virtually the same - this is way back - the Ampzilla was driving Time Windows which might jog a time frame reference for you - and in those days we were really on a step learning curve (although I think by then we had figured out the original Monster Speaker Cable sounded better than zip wire, maybe much to do with it's gauge as you pointed out) Of course I wanted to know if those guys on the show thought the two amps might sound the same, the Carver was much less money - I will give them credit as none of the 3 guys would tackle the question head on - you know, like in those days most of us thought similar or matching specs for an amp should mean it should sound the same or similar - - they were more informed than I in that they knew better than to make any such prediction - but that was a cool moment for me because they didn't care about the question so much as they wanted to know about the Ampzilla and the Time Windows which surprised me in that moment but admittedly stroked my ego a bit - that was one amplifier that I should have kept, but who knew back then that to this day it would still be coveted, more for it's brute power and looks than it's rather hard, Bipolor transistor sound - gawd I miss that amp, it was built literally like a tank - - anyway - catch ya later and happy listening - - don't waste another minute of time responding to this one - I've appreciated sharing with you - happy holidays and all that stuff - best wishes for your channel too.
@@skip1835 Thanks so much for your anecdote! I Have never listened or tested an Ampzilla, but can understand your wishing you had it now. Yes, I was referring to the m400a version of the Cube. Check out episode #51 on the Cube. I had two cubes running as monoblocks and decided to re-cap them, which is a royal pain. THey were working well and I decided to push them a little and one died- went into and stayed into protect mode. I decided to wait as I had already been into it a few times as I screwed something up the 1st time during reassembly. About 4months later I decided to take it apart again and found the problem and was able to repair it, and it is being tested as I am typing this- so far, so good. Aside from the low level (no signal) hum you may hear, they work really well as long as your are not DJ'ing a party. Best wishes for you as well during this holiday season
Nice video! And the crazy part is, the Transparent Audio speaker cable that you tested is one of their more "affordable" lines. Transparent Audio's top of the line speaker cable costs $77k a pair and I have heard it still made out of copper. You would think for that kind of money it would be dipped in gold! A fool and his money...
Goldplating isn't that expensive, for that money it could be a fully gold wire, but even better would be a fully silver wire, as silver has the best conductivity. Gold is used for goldplating since it doesn't oxidize, but making full wire of gold isn't as beneficial. Long time ago I used a thin coax cable made of silver to be able to carry long distances.
Honestly, 16guage lamp cord would be fine for most people's needs. I am not sure that it comes in OF copper, which I would want to use as I have had 16guage wire that was not OFC corrode over time, and that is in a dry climate. If you are running less than 15' to a speaker it should not be a problem. Thanks for your input.
@@vintageaudioreview When properly tinned and soldered, the garden variety copper lampcord gives good long service. OFC is best, I agree. The stuff you don't want is CCA (Copper Clad Aluminum) wire. That stuff is a technicians nightmare... it actively rejects solder, reacts with brass or gold fittings and breaks real easy when bent a few times. A 10 foot speaker cable with 16ga lamp cord has a DC resistance of about 0.08ohms so it is suitable for most stereo uses. (4 ohms/1000 feet, 20 actual feet in the cord)
@@Douglas_Blake_579 thanks for getting the resistance calculation. Years ago I read am article in stereo review or audio- probably in the mid 80's- and the author said that good old 16guage lamp cord is all most of us would need. As far as the corrosion, I am seeing it at points along the wire, which is somewhat clear, not specifically at the ends. Probably looks worse than the effect- at least at this point- by I built a match for the one wire that was used in the test so I use that now for my reviews.
@@vintageaudioreview By corrosion I trust you mean that green mould like stuff... not simple colour changes in the copper. Usually the jacket protects the copper quite nicely and harmful corrosion only happens in exposed bare wire ... which is why we tin the ends.
Good cables are available for less then $100-$150 depending on length ... It's your money and you can buy every exotic cable you want, but never claim they are "better" ... as they aren't... They are just looking nice and expensive... probably the real reason you bought them.
At a show a million $ system switch between Home Depo 14ga extension cord and several Uber high end ones the majority of listeners thought the HD cable sounded better.
Which show was this? Here's a better test: I was at a local high end shop and we swapped between cables from a higher-end cable to a mid-line cable. Instantly two 21 year-olds in the back of the store looking at budget gear asked what we did because the sound stage went away.
@@VideoArchiveGuy So maybe if you are 21 and your hearing is really, really good and you have the money to spend on very expensive cables and you hear a difference, go for it.
@@vintageaudioreview It's not about being 21, it's about the level of your system and whether those changes are important to you. For example, if you have a highly resolving system, and an additional $10,000 spent on speaker cables better resolves the space in which the original recording was made, is that worth it to you? I'm not talking a modern "every member of the band sent in their part from home" recording, I'm talking about a 1963 recording with Frank Sinatra being recorded in a studio with the orchestra right there. Is the fact that a speaker cable upgrade allows you to resolve the size of the studio involved rather than Frank just being a voice in space worth the money to you? For some it's everything, for others it isn't worth $10 more.
@@VideoArchiveGuy The system issue has been brought up in a few of the comments. What is a highly resolving system? Who determines the min. equip list? And what about your room and your hearing ability ?
Sorry to hear you have such a low opinion of the C1. I have a/b'd them against several preamps and the C1 holds its own, both in sound in electrical performance. I do appreciate your taking the time to comment, though.
@@vintageaudioreview compared to what audio research,sonic frontiers,Modwright,VTL,CAT,Conrad Johnson etc etc etc, I wouldn't want it if someone gave it to me free,i fell for the Carver BS 35 years ago and it was all marketing nonsense,oh sonic halography ,yeah sure the Carver amazing speakers howrver were ahead of its time
@@stevieg2755 We are all entitled to our opinions. Bob Carver and his gear have a heck of a following and his gear typically gets a lot of views on my channel. I enjoy Sonic Holography. The only time I thought a preamp sounded markedly better than the C1, which it did, was because I had left it in Mono.
@@stevieg2755 I'm not big on audio tube preamps. I get to listen to a lot of gear, some of it "high end". My audio world is fairly large compared to many. Spend your money on speakers that you like the sound of and make sure your amp can drive them and your problems will be minimal is what I have found.
If there are arrows pointing towards the spade connectors would this not suggest the orientation they should be connected; ie signal direction of travel towards the spades, so spades connect to the load end (the speaker)?
Thanks for the comment/question. my understanding is that the arrows point towards the amp connection side. That is the way that they were measured which did not show anything abnormal at all. My electrical engineering friends laughed at the concept of the cables requiring a connection in a certain direction....
@@IliyaOsnovikov It is an ac so the signal flow should not be a factor. I did not see anything on their website specified that, but I did not do a "deep dive".
Thanks for the question. The switch box limits how many things one can switch between. A mono signal was used going into the amplifier and then into both cables.
My approach is to let people hear both low cost and higher priced cables and let them decide if they think that the audible differences are worth what is being asked for them. My policy is that if they can get a bigger improvement in musical enjoyment by investing less, then that is the way they should go. Surely the buyer decides based on what they hear and feel, and what they want to spend. Any expensive product, such as a sports car is often bought because it brings enjoyment, not because it measures better.
Ah, this old chestnut again. The problem is that people think the relationship between expense and performance is entirely linear, when it most certainly is not. Less arcanely put: above a reasonable quality/price point, the reality of 'diminishing returns' kicks in - beyond which any notions of linearity are lost. So then, and based upon good empirical evidence and properly conducted blind listening tests, £25 - £45 is about the range to consider as a reasonable cut off point. What then does this tell us about the individual who is willing [and indeed able] to pay the outrageously preposterous sum of £8000 for a set of cables? a. The price of satisfaction can be exorbitant in the extreme. b. Items of belief/faith - even in the face of all the evidence to the contrary - are an all pervading, powerful tool for the suspension of critical thinking. C. Proof - if ever it was needed - that a fool and his money are, indeed, easily parted. An interesting and thought provoking video. Keep 'em comin'. Phil.
I appreciate that, Phil!. "A fool & his money are easily parted" has come up a lot in the comments. I like to mix up my videos with different audio themed subjects, and this one struck a nerve. THere is another type of cable that will be tested at a later date...
Thanks for the question. I suppose you could send the same signal into both cables- using appropriate adapters into and out of each cable- and put them into a scope where you can subtract one channel from the other, so all you are left with is the difference between the two. You could test a few frequency points across the band and see if there was any major difference, which I would guess in this case, there was not....
If there are gullible audiophiles out there to spend that kind of money, I guess there are plenty of snake oil opportunists willing to cater to them. With $8k to spare, I would rather spend it on my listening room to correct the deficiencies or acoustical aberrations that can affect the overall sound performance. Having a blind person to listen to the realism of a singer or small group of musicians and asking that blind person what they liked about their performance is a true test, that normally cannot be replicated with audiophile equipment. If the performance is so convincing to be the real deal, than I would say that the system truly has accomplished that synergy we are searching for.
Thanks for your thoughtful comments. The one about using a blind person (with good hearing) is a good one. In this test, we did have a musician listen who has good hearing. We hope to have at least one musician and maybe a singer at the next a/b test, which is in the planning stage.
I see this has ignited the usual "my system is better than your system" kind of debate that every technician and engineer dreads .... So let me just give you all a couple of simple things to think about... Why mono instead of stereo? ... Two word answer: Phase Cancellation. By the time you get into the higher frequencies, about 10khz and up, what is called the "brilliance" or "presence" range, the wavelength of the audio signals in air is less than 1.5 inches... this means that any error in distance from the listening position to the stereo speakers of more than 1/4 inch could result in the tweeters being increasingly out of phase at the listening position. Moreover, simply moving your head 3/4 inch either side of the perfect equal distance can result in significant reductions (or increases) of perceived high pitch sounds. With a monophonic test, this doesn't happen. Then there's the problem nobody can fix... Mid Field Cancellation The audio wavelength in the range between 1.5 and 2.5 khz corresponds to the width of most people's heads. In a stereo system we hear both speakers with both ears and we take directional clues from the difference in amplitude, phase and arrival time at our ears, dominantly in this mid-vocal range of the spectrum. So... with a pair of small speakers, set up a near field listening test... speakers about 3 feet away, equal distance and angle from the listening position. Now play a 2khz monophonic test tone at a low-medium level through both speakers. Find the spot where the sound appears to be dead centered between the speakers... now move your head about an inch either side of that perfect point... you will hear the loudness of the tone increase and it will seem to move toward one of the speakers. Move the other way and it happens with the other speaker. Now repeat the same test with white noise... when you move even an inch or so the entire tonal quality of that noise will change very noticeably, becoming brighter and more present. This issue cannot be fixed. It is cancellation caused by the distance between your ears and the arrival time of the signals from the speakers at each of your ears. Of course, with a monophonic test this is also not an issue. So, now we know why most stereo listening tests are a simple waste of time. Unless you are rigidly positioned between two speakers at exactly equal distances and angles, the results will change every time you move your head. Now for the interesting question .... how close is your home setup to this ideal... equal distance, equal angles from the listening position. Yes, even 1/4 of an inch matters... Then ask yourself if you always sit in the perfect position...
Thanks for taking the time to expound upon this point. I wish I could take credit for setting up a mono test for the reasons you mentioned, but it was mainly because that is the only way it can be done with my a/b switcher. Imaging/soundstage is determined more by room acoustics, the speakers and your place in the room as you pointed out.....
@@vintageaudioreview No worries .... it's kinda fun. Imaging and soundstage actually come from the recorded material, not any part of your playback system. It is impossible to create when none exists... However; it is possible, and even easy to sabotage the one you got in the recording. Simple matters such as imperfect speaker positioning and even sitting position in the room can degrade the perception of it significantly.
@@vintageaudioreview As a special effect, maybe ... I can do the same in software on my system. But if you listen closely it comes at the expense of other sound qualities that might be more important to our enjoyment. Still, if it pleases you... why not?
It does alter the FR a bit from what I have measured, but the effect can be pretty impressive at times, and I do like it so why not....that is part of the hobby.
I don't know how anyone can justify charging 8 large for a speaker cable. Even more, someone paying that. I have heard a difference in speaker cables, but not THAT big of a difference.
Hmmm...do I understand correctly, you used a stereo preamp (set to mono) to drive 2 mono amps, each amp had one of the test cables run from it to the switch box, and then a single homemade short cable between the switch box ad the speaker? If so, not really a valid test, as you can't account for any differences between the 2 power amps....not that I think it would have made any difference anyway LOL
You are pretty close to getting it right. One power amp was used- the Bryston 2B-LP. It is a stereo amp, however it is a dual mono design- basically 2 independent amps in one chassis. I have measured the amp and their electrical characteristics are almost the same- definitely for the purpose of the test- you are indeed correct. And having the short homemade cable as part of the test has been pointed out a few times today (a record # of comments for me). But my premise is that if both cables are passing through it, the effect would be nulled out......Thanks for the comment
Some people can hardly make financial ends meet, and there are those who think $8000 for speaker wire is okay. Clearly it seems there's no audible difference, when testing equipment can barely detect micro differences
thanks for the comment. I cannot begrudge someone who has the financial ability to buy $8000 speakers and purchases them. If they tell me that that their sound has improved greatly, I am going to be a bit skeptical.
Yes- both the expensive cables and the one I made went through the 2' DIY cable I made as well. But two, 2' 12gauge cables connected in parallel should have very little effect on the result.
Agree with the analysis, but I do hear differences with different interconnect cables. It’s noticeable when comparing a twisted pair configuration with a floating ground(long-time established protocol for recording studios), compared to a pair with the ground connected at both ends.
Thaks for sharing. I think you are talking about using a balanced cable vs an unbalanced interconnect cable. The balanced approach is used to help eliminate noise- important for a recording studio. If there was no noise on the unbalanced cable I doubt you would hear any difference- kinda hard to test, I would think, since the preamp may use a slightly different circuit to drive the xlr cable than the unbalanced cable....
@@vintageaudioreview Nope, this is using Mogami 2549 microphone cable in a single-ended application, for a typical 2-channel system. One wire hot, one wire return, with the shield connected only at the source and “floating” at the other end. This connection methodology also prevents ground loops. In this configuration, the sound is very transparent and open. When the shield is connected at both ends, the sound is darker and closed-in. I get the same results with Canare L-2T2S microphone cable. A 3-ft. pair of these cables with Rean Neutric connectors will run less than $15-$18 and will smoke anything up to $500/pair.
@@ChicagoRob2 Show these are your "rca" interconnect cables then ? Interesting about only grounding the shield at one end working better. It would be interesting to a/b them with a standard rca cable...I will have to check into this a little more as it would be nice to have the exact length of cable to connect gear....
Ground loop problems can be quite complex. It is entirely possible that lifting the ground on an unbalanced interconnect reduces noise or hum IN YOUR SYSTEM as the ground current is flowing in another path. Or it could make the problem worse and usually does with unbalanced systems. What you are testing is not one cable compared to another. You are modifying the electrical current paths in your system. You can't compare a modified balanced interconnect with an unbalanced. Apples and oranges. I think I understand what you are doing. Using shielded pair cable, with the pairs as the hot and ground and only connecting the shield to the ground at one end versus an unbalanced cable. But you have to keep in mind your topology has more resistance and inductance in the ground path than the 2 conductor shielded cable does do the mass of the metal. So yes, there could be an audible difference with hum and low level noise. But that has nothing to do with cable quality.
@@ChicagoRob2 If you have one wire connected as the "return" which on a single ended cable is ground... your fancy "shield at one end" trick *will not* prevent ground loops. In fact it could make things worse as the unterminated length of shield can act as an antenna, picking up all kinds of RF interference.
If I'm buying a speaker cable which is 321 more ekspensive than your 28 $ cable it is 321 times better than yours!!! End of story. My brother is stronger than your brother! LOL
Transparent cable doesn't claim their cables are lower distortion or have a different frequency response than less expensive cable s. Transparent claims their network boxes reduce noise and are calibrated to match the impedance between amplifier and speakers , and between components and their network boxes have damping expoxy to reduce resonance s so these are tests in the video that are not addressing the specific manufacturers claims like resonances , impedance matching and measuring noise spectrum in the range transparent claims is reduced by their cable networks but if more extensive tests are done and cannot confirm the manufacturer s claims then cable nay sayers could be right .
Thanks for taking the time to express your thoughts- that network in the cable is calibrated to match your system how? Do they have a library of the majority of speaker impedances and output impedances, and a massive amount of L, R and C's to use ??
@Douglas_Blake_579 .....phone preamp s have different impedance matching for moving coil cartridges s but transparent can't do different impedance s in their network boxes with internal circuits that include resistors ?...okay ....someone should file a lawsuit against them if it's a lie
@@mikelanden Phono preamp matching to a cartridge is a totally different beast than matching between an amp/speaker. The signal levels are much, much smaller coming out of a cartridge and the input impedance of your preamp much different than that of a speaker. I am hope @Douglas_Blake_579 can provide more details on the subject- I have to get back to testing....
@@vintageaudioreview ...oh...ok...what about 4 ohm , 6 ohm , 8 taps on amplifier s that are part of the signal path that include being connected to speaker cable s...👌
Too many variables, I know the C1 and it's far from being transparent. That said, the hiend cables for thousands of dollars are baloney. Get some Neotech wire and call it a day.
Thanks again for the comments. I did a quick check of Neotech wire as I was unfamiliar with it and it appears pricey by my standards, though not as nearly as much as the one I tested. I will stand by the C1- I have compared (a/b'd) it to many name preamps. The only one I did not think it held its own against was because it turns out I had the Carver in Mono accidently. But you are right, there are mainly variables.....
It doesn't matter. He could have used a $50.00 china amp and the test would still be valid because the only thing that changed was the 10 foot speaker wire.
I worked for an aerospace company and there are legitimate reasons some simple things like hammers may cost much more than one you picked up from home depot. But your point is well taken 😄 Thaks for taking the time to comment!
New to your channel. Thanks for performing this type of test. I've been saying to anyone who would listen, a channel that does thus kind if "blind A/B" test would be so welcome to the hobby. I'm not a cable denier, but I've been skeptical of people who make claims about being able to hear the difference between X & Y components, but not un a truly blind test. I look forward to more blind test results. 👍
Thanks for the comment and hope you stick with the channel. I only do a/b tests every now and then- mainly as an excuse to get together with audio buddies. We are planning another for the 1st of the year...
If you can't hear the difference between X & Y components in a system or the difference between X & Y speaker cables, I suggest you save your money & try a different hobby Sir
@@stLtBilko Thanks for the comment, but I am not sure what you are driving at. I am a gear guy who has decent hearing. If I can't hear the benefit of an expensive component, then why spend the $$, unless there is some aesthetic value to it for me. I could spend the money on something else that may not have the sound quality of say a streaming device, but boy, it would be nice to own it- in this case I am thing about a Nakamichi Dragon- which is the part of the hobby I enjoy.
I have not tested any power cables, but Amir at Audio Science Review has tested several over the years and the result is pretty much the same- no effect on audio performance. Some may block some high frequency noise a bit better, but that would not have anything to do with the audio band performance.
If you hear sonic differences between power cables, the problem is in your equipment, not the cables. All AC powered equipment is required to have power line filtering and proper grounding as part of it's design. If cords make a difference the problem is in your device's AC filtering.
Yeah. Let's put a Ferrari engine in my Mitsubishi Mirage and see how it works. Wow! This engine is crap. It performs much better with a 1.2 L 3 cylinder engine. I'm sure glad I didn't waste my money on Ferrai F8. People who spend money on high end cars are dupes.
I am not sure I totally follow you here, but I typically don't fault folks who can afford to by an exotic car or piece of audio gear. Best value on a high end car is typically the Corvette... Thanks for the comment.
@@vintageaudioreview Well to make it simpler, if you attached that $8000 wire to a pair of tin cans I'm sure the result would be worse than if you attached a string and pulled them taut between your ear and your friends.
Well put. Most of my audio friends are not rich, but have gotten really good deals on gear before it became more difficult in recent years. The other week I was helping an "audio friend" out and asked him if he had some wire strippers and he handed me some scissors....
_" Audiophiles are sometimes rich people who know nothing about technology,"_ And the rest tend to be middle-class people who know nothing about technology. Some time ago I helped an audiophile's widow clear out the sound room. This got her nearly $10,000 to put in the bank. They both lived on Canada's senior's pensions for years!
@@Douglas_Blake_579 The majority of audiophiles I know are middle class with their "knowledge" coming from reading/watching reviews and some experimentation of things on their own over the years....Thanks again for all of the commentary 😀
@@vintageaudioreview Unfortunately a lot of that 'knowledge" (appropriately in quotes) comes from the webpages of these shyster companies who prey upon their gullibility. It is amazing how much so-called science I see that exists only in the audiophile realm... and at odds with well established understandings beyond that. One of life's harder lessons: "The ones who know the least are the easiest to lie to." I constantly urge anyone getting into audio gear for any other reason than listening to music or movies to take the time to learn some basic electronics skills. Not saying they need to become techs or engineers, but they should at least know how to read and interpret specs and graphs as well as troubleshooting simple problems. I see the necessity of it every time I lift off the covers on some piece of gear and note the blank stares on their faces.
Hello. I have had a LOT of problems with OFC. speaker cables with transparent PVC insulation. especially after I've soldered on them. very many became green and dark in colour. Buying a cheap speaker cable can be punishing. You can get short life out of them. have also seen this in a newer jamo speaker now only tinned copper cable and never untinned
As was pointed out in one of these comments, the wire I actually used was Copper clad aluminum, apparently not the best wire, though I have had good luck with it thus far- thanks for the comments
Yep, that's an electrolytic reaction to passing current through a junction of dissimilar metals. It's not limited to aluminium wire... but that is the worst for it. IF your cables are reacting as you say, it's probably not copper. Most likely it's Copper Clad Aluminium. The simple test is to scrape away a little bit of the surface of the strands and see if they turn silver... if they do it's aluminium wire. I've repeatedly seen CCA wire actively reject solder, as in, you make a perfectly good splice and then trying to solder it the solder just rolls off and drips onto the floor. You actually need special (expensive) solder and an oxygen eliminating paste to make a proper connection to it. Terrible stuff....
@@vintageaudioreview By the way, the measurement you are doing is not good enough! I 100% agree that the sound difference between cheap good cables and EXPENSIVE cables is so small that you have problems hearing differences. But you also have to measure the capacitor value and other things. And you also have to zoom in on the measurement on the oscilloscope. It seems that you have zoomed out quite a bit and then you don't see the difference. I believe that you must also have a very good sound system before it makes sense to buy expensive cables
@@ford1546 See my other comments on this ... reactance, inductance and other feedline effects are unimportant below 1/4 electrical wavelength of cable, so unless you are running 2 mile cables, you don't need to worry about that. Plus, from experience, if you have to zoom in on a scope trace to find a difference... it is _extremely_ unlikely you will hear it.
Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts. At least we agree that the expensive cables will not sound different that the "cheap" cables. Douglas_Blake_579 has commented a lot about the capacitive, inductive and resistive elements of audio cables is pretty miniscule. The scope you mentioned is an audio analyzer and the scales I use (for THD) are normal and show what is going on. The frequency response plots can be zoomed in enough to make and show any difference.
I have seen this type of cable test multiple times since the 70's. When set up properly, almost always no difference. A few times the fancy, expensive cables actually sounded worse, usually because of some "magic tech" add on component to the cables. And of course, there are the stories of what Monster Cable use to do at shows, using regular cables behind the scene for the actual hook ups!
@@vintageaudioreview Okay ... two quick stories for you. 1) I was called in to service a "Monster" demo unit in a local hifi shop. The "standard cable" side of the switch had stopped working. I noticed it was connected with about 50 feet of coiled up telephone wire (26ga), so I did what any competent tech would do and replaced it with about 6 inches of proper 16ga hookup wire. Their sales of Monster cables tanked... 2) At a Canadian audiofest I attended a demonstration of "AQ" cables and like everyone else I heard the stunning difference between the "standard" RCA cable and the AQ one. After the demo the salesmaker left his stand unattended as he milled though the crowd taking orders. I went behind the stand, spotted an equalizer hooked into the system... put it on top of the stand for all to see... and the place exploded into a near riot when people realized what had been done to them. Needless to say I was actively invited to never return to that show again.
@@Douglas_Blake_579 Without trying to sound big headed, I sold all my rca's a few years back except a pair of pure audio one's I still use to play vintage stuff with, it's all about the nas, ethernet cable & amp for me, I still chuckle when I see ads for this or that's latest incarnations of their interconnect rca cables
@@golds04 Head off to the hardware store, electrical department, and grab a roll of 16ga all copper lamp cord. It'll cost you about $0.30 per foot and last you a lifetime.
I have additional tools to test cables. As we put it, we test from DC to daylight in the spectrum. We measure dielectric absorption, resistance, impedance, inductance, and capacitance per foot, and dielectric breakdown votage. In genera, the DC resistance is the most important factor, so the shorter the better. As most speaker cable is not even close to the impedance of the speaker, any speaker cable of any significant length is mostly affected by Inductance per foot as the speakers are much lower impedance than the cable. In professi0onal audio, this issue is dealt with by using balanced line level signals to the mostly powered speakers. This results in the length of wire between the amplifier in the speaker to the drivers is under 3 deet in most cases. Large crossover components are eliminated and replaced by active crossovers into a bi-amp configuration. For effeciency the bass is handled by class D amplifiers, and the upper frequencies by a lower power class AB amplifier. In many professional sound systems, instead of sending analog balanced line levels to the powered speakers, the connection is digital from the console using either AES2, Waves, or Dante interfaces. This eliminates all analog noise sources in the sound distribution from the console to the speaker arrays. Why are guitars still using high impedance pickups in the days of low impedance balanced sound? That ancient artifact needs to go. If you have a bench power supply that can provide 10 amps or more, you can do low resistance measurements yourself on the cables. Send for example 10 amps regulated into a shorted cable, and then measure the voltage due to resistance. EG a 10 amp current into a 10 foot cable and has a voltage of 20mV would equate to 2 miliohms.
Really? Applying RF feedline standards to a low frequency cable that is only a tiny fraction of the wavelength of the signal? Lets do the math ... The speed of light is about 299,792.458 kilometres per second. Electricty travels through copper at about 96% of the speed of light (VF = 0.96) This gives us a velocity of ... 299,782.458 x 0.96 == 287,791.159 kilometers per second. Wavelength = velocity / frequency, so... at 20khz... 287,791.159 / 20,000 == 14.389 Kilometres ... that's 8.941 MILES. The first resonant point in a feedline is at 1/4 wavelength so... 14.389 / 4 = 3.597 Kilometres or 2.235 MILES. Now most of us don't run 2 mile speaker wires... so below that feedline impedance, dielectric, inductive and reactive components will have a negligible.... likely unmeasurable effect on the sound quality of a system. What matters is resistance ... which as you pointed out is in milliohms (1/1,000 of an ohm) for all but the most drastically under sized wire. So lets look at good old 16ga lamp wire ... rated by UL and CSA at 4 ohms per 1,000 feet. A 10 foot speaker wire made up of 16 ga wire actually has 20 feet of wire in it. So we have (4 x 20) / 1000 == 0.08 ohms (80 milliohms) of resistance. Compared to a 4 ohm speaker that gives us an impedance ratio (damping factor) of... 4 / 0.08 == 50. which is totally acceptable.
Really nice comment here! I have very little experience with guitars and the associated equipment. Your idea with a 10amp p/s is good, but a milliohmeter would accomplish the same thing- I don't have one... though I would like too. Thanks for the commentary!
@@Douglas_Blake_579 All the facts about the speed of light is absolutely true. However, the impedance mismatch means that a low impedance load on a higher impedance cable results in the cable being inductive. When a high impedance source is applied to a much lower impedance cable the result is capacative loading, even at fractions of a wavelength. Your assumption in the velocity factor in wire is incorrect when an insulator on the wire changes the capacitance per foot. This is referred to the velocity factor. You will find most polyvynil plastic dielectric produces a velocity factor closer to 60% and not the claimed 96%. It is true the effects at lengths under 100 feet is negligible except for the resistance, but this is a bunch of Audiophiles where any measurable difference in cable is worth $14,000 in price for the cable. This is the level of difference they claim they can hear. I emphasize the word claim. Just an FYI, High voltage transmission lines traveling 500 miles or more often need impedance corrections to keep the voltage stable. Ask your utility about capacitors on rural distribution lines in the country. This is at 60 hz in the USA. Yes is it a fraction of a wavelenght and the lines are air insulated without a solid dielectric. High tension lines can need either inductors for long lighter loaded lines resulting in an impedance mismatch, or capacitors for under loaded lines resulting in impedance mismatch the other direction. If you can tour a local HV transmission line substation, ask to see the KVA, KV, Megawatt meters and in the same area find the power factor meter and the MegaVarmeters. Ask the operator about power factor correction. Speaker cables with the two conductors broken down into many smaller insulated strands, which are then braided together, is to add capacitance to the cable to lower the impedance to be closer to the impedance of the speaker. Google Power Factor correction in transmission lines for further reading. Yes it is flow lower frequencies and longer distances. But then we are talking about Audiophiles again.
@@vintageaudioreview A mili-ohm meter is nothing more than a current source, and a volt meter in a nice package. Look up "4 lead resistance measurement" Meter leads, contact resistance, and other measurement errors make measuring milt-ohms impossible with a traditional 2 lead setup. Replicating the function of a 4 lead milt-ohm meter is not difficult. The point is the leads measuring the voltage can not be the same leads used to supply the measurement current as any lead contact resistance will make the reading invalid. Disclaimer, yes I do measure wire, relay, and contact resistances as part of my day job. No we do not use a mili-ohm meter to take the measurements. We use a DMM with mili-volt scale and a regulated current power supply. We measure mili-ohms down to micro-ohms.
Another test would be to secretly replace an audiophile's $8000 cables with a $14 pair and see if they notice.
Not overly practical, but a good idea!
Same thing with high priced DAC’s 😅
@@carminedesanto6746 One of my favorites is when an acquaintance told me heard an improvement when he changes is toslink cable. Thanks for the comment
tell the them that your are hearing the $8000 cable when in fact they are hearing the $14 pair and I they will say the $8000 is better.
@@itsonlyme9938 Interesting experiment idea
The expensive cables should come with a free dunce cap.
I would not go that far.. Thanks for the comment.
@@vintageaudioreview
I would. In fact I like that idea!
If you understand NEC table 310.15(b)(16), you don’t need more than #12Awg wire for the speakers. Just make sure you have a good separation.
Great video! Its funny how people that defend expensive cables never back up their claim with an AB or ABX test.
Well, there is a comment here somewhere about an audio store that put out a video trying to show the difference in cables for what that is worth, but no a/b, abx testing. Thanks again for commenting
It's funny how those who say there is no difference are unwilling to just listen but instead rely on measurements and "blind testing."
@@VideoArchiveGuy thats the issue. "Just listening" is prone to a lot of bias and brain tricks. "Blind testing" involves just listening with an experiment design to remove biases.
@@abelfonseca Unless you've been doing it for a while and know what you're listening for.
Multi strand oxygen free copper wire is exactly what the expensive cable uses, the name is what costs the extra money.
Thanks for the comment, though to be fair, I am sure there are costs with putting together such a cable that we may not see.
@@vintageaudioreview
... *unnecessary* costs.
Wow! $9000 will get you 2 carbon special rel subs now there is a difference everone will notice!
It would b fun to come up with a list of audio gear you could purchase for $9k.....
The results are as expected, wire is wire, the end.
Amen!
I cant believe how many tone deaf followers there are. Im sure these people also could not tell the difference between milk and orange juice in a blind taste test.
I don’t think so. Maybe with speaker cables but with interconnects, you can definitely hear differences. Now whether or not those differences mean more expensive or if those differences matter enough to spend the extra $$$, that’s something every audiophile will have to figure out with their own ears.
@@Simon-oq6ds That is key- if you hear differences and want to spend the $$, go right ahead, it is your money and hobby- thanks for the comment.
audiophile believe expensive cable can tune their system sound better but they not believe cheap eq can improve it immediately
Thanks for taking the time to comment and you are correct for the most part- some audiophiles do see the advantage of equalizers as part of DSP that may be in their streamer...
This know-nothing audiohead has made and used, 12-14 gauge pure stranded copper wire since the vinyl bug bit some 50 years ago...SFSG. I'm still using them, the only thing I've done is make them shorter and replace the connectors, twice.
Thanks for your "tongue in cheek comment". I was not aware until after the video posted, but in their owner's manuals (60's and 70's, I believe)McIntosh listed the length and gauge of wire that should be used to connect their amps with speaker, and I don't think they ever went as high as 12gauge.....
audiophile = nonsense spending to be never satisfied
There is sure a lot of truth to that statement
The switch box and short home made cables would have to be eliminated, and your system would have to be a much higher resolution set up to be able to hear any difference, and your room would likely have to be treated to absorb reflections, and would need ideal placement of high end speakers. Because until you can hear things like soundstage, image front back and sides, separation of instruments, ect. you will not hear a difference between wire. THATS what the higher grade wires are all about. Myself I use different brands, always a high quality oxygen free copper. Stay away from anything Chinese, that stuff uses wire that came from a melting pot of different metals, whatever they could find in scrap. They make it look nice though.
Thanks for your thoughts on this issue, but I respectully disagree with you except for the OFC copper should be used. But but accident, the 12gauge wire I used for this test was copper covered aluminum, and still no difference in sound or measurements. After this video was posted I saw an excellent video from Audioholics where they measured some speaker cables and there is very little difference between the expensive ones and the regular wire. If there is no electrical difference I can't see how they can sound different... I can't get rid of the switch box or small cables and do an a/b test where you can switch between things immediately, which you need to do as our audio memory is not that good for trying to hear such small difference. I have another cable test video tomorrow....
OMG, people actually buy crap like this for multiple thousands of dollars? Are their noses so far in the air they never see the ground?
Actually, the owner of the cables got them with a lot of other things and does not have his nose in the clouds. Most of the audio friends I have would never purchase a cable that expensive and are do not snotty. Thanks for the comment
@@vintageaudioreview I was saying in general. For people who go out looking for stuff like this. Thanks for the response.
@@IDPhotoMan I suppose that could be the case sometimes.
Only foolish people get fooled, a wire is a wire,
To a certain extent, yes, but if your speakers are drawing a lot of current you would want to make sure that your cables were not going to cause much or any voltage drop.
Haha musicians definitely don’t have better ears. They all suffer from tinnitus 😅
I would say that many of them- at least the ones that I have met, have not complained of tinnitus. The one involved in this test has great hearing, though he is not a professional musician. I think the point is that many of them- those without hearing problems- have a good ear for sound??
Any SHORT speaker cable of modest quality will do the job
Good old hardware store 16ga lamp cord, still the best.
Amen!
I did a demo with a guy that said cables don't make a difference, I played one tune with the cables connected and the the second tune with them dis connected. There was a night and day difference....
Thanks for the comment. Unless you do an immediate a/b switching I would not be a believer...
LOL ... really?
(nicely played!)
@@vintageaudioreview I believe you missed the tongue-in-cheek disconnection, without wires, no sound.
I have a quite nice new Mcintosh / Sonus Faber system. I just couldn’t bring myself to spend a bunch more money on cables. I went to the car stereo shop down the street and said I wanted their best cable.. They sold me 40 feet of 10 gauge for $40 and said they’ve tried more expensive a few times and could never hear a difference.
Thanks for sharing your experience. Sounds like your 10 gauge wire is working well- no surprise there.
As they say, a fool and their money are easily parted.
On another channel " if something can be asserted without evidence, it can also dismissed without evidence.
Yep ... Hitchen's Razor
That is an interesting comment and truee- thanks for that!
@@vintageaudioreview Hi, this is where saying came from .ua-cam.com/video/g-_RYJA1T1U/v-deo.htmlsi=dWDoYv0KZLL9ntC0
I use to own a 8 gauge Monster cable until a friend went to my house with a Transparent Wave which is the most cheap of them 400 hundred for the pair, next day I bought one because I would not be happy with the Monster, difference in cables cannot be measure, the definition is not measurable, if you didn't hear the difference your wallet will be happier
Thanks for your comment and if the Transparent cable floats your boat, go for it....
Why are you not measuring these when hooked up to a speaker and amplifier? The resistance will affect the relationship of speaker with amplifier. Especially if you have a speaker with a wild impedance sweep and an amplifier with a crazy low output impedance (.000065) / super high damping factor (123,076 @ 8 ohms) like a Purifi Eigentakt.
Thanks for taking the time to comment/question. The Purifii amp you mention with such a high damping factor (doubt that is real), would care very little about the speaker cable unless it is was really high. I just looked at something simple like the frequency response and whether there was any distortion introduced, of which there was none. Did not bother to measure the resistance as it would be much less than my meter is capable of measuring, maybe 0.1ohm. Damping factor is difficult to measure when it is very high.
"Cheap audio components, inexperienced listeners, flawed test, mono speaker listening"; have we not heard it all 😂
Fact: supernatural hearing is defeated by going blind.
Saying that, it would be interesting to form a panel of blind people, as many of them have improved hearing. "Our study shows that the brains of blind individuals are better able to represent frequencies," one of the team, psychology graduate student Kelly Chang, explains.
"For a sighted person, having an accurate representation of sound isn't as important because they have sight to help them recognise objects, while blind individuals only have auditory information.
Thanks for commenting! I think there was a suggestion about having a blind listener in one of the comments- I appreciate your quote from the study.
I wonder how many of those high end cables they sell?
No idea but good question
A fool and his money are easily parted...
Indeed!
Linn LK400,good cable,well made and they are a reasonable price, their again I have some supra cable and it works just as good,,8 grand😮rip off
Thanks for the thumbs up!
4K for ten feet? That distance isn't long enough to need anything fancy. That 4K would be better spent on high quality speakers so you can actually hear something different. Glad to see people testing blind and actually testing the harmonic distortion instead of just believing hype from a company.
Thanks so much for appreciating my little attempt at doing both an a/b test and the measurements portion as well. It was not perfect, but sure has touched an audio nerve.
Well I'm not suprised; no mentioning of cable lifters, nor whether the cables were burned in,-and how long that took-, and no mentioning of any participating certified trained listeners.
Thanks for the humorous comments- I am a trained listener, but did not hear any difference, of course....
Wonder what type of solder they use in their amplifier, solid Gold or platinum maybe.its the price for being stupid with too much money and not listening in science class. They deserve what they get
Thanks for the comments!
When you say you didn’t hear much of a difference I believe you.
Thanks for taking the time to comment!
Some rigs don't have the resolution to hear the difference.
I wonder what standards there are for such rigs?? I appreciate the comment.
This is so absolutely comical, in order to hear high end. Products, you need a high end stereo ,measurements tell you nothing.
Thanks for taking the time to comment. I totally disagree with you, as would lots of research by companies like Harmon, who did studies showing that trained listeners preferred speaker with a flat frequency response, just to name one.
8 grand for speaker cables?????????? A fool and his money and all that.
They can reacher even higher levels than that- thanks for your comment!
Most of the differences that I hear between different cables is in the presentation of the soundstage, so designing a test that eliminates the distinctions seems pointless.
Thanks for the comment, though I would disagree with you about the soundstage comment. I think @Douglas_Blake_579 discussed the advantage of doing the test in mono amongst these comments...
You’ll notice a bit of difference of course but not 8000 worth of difference?
Thanks for the comment and I guess there is the fact that you can tell someone that you are using $8k speaker cables along with your $20k amp and $35k speakers and $10k preamp- I guess that is worth something. The majority of commentors thus far would agree there is not going to be much added (sonically) with such expensive cables.
Nicely done Scott. 40 year electronics technician on this end.
The results were, as expected of any listening test, very close to guesswork, which tells us they were trying to please you, not hearing actual differences. But hey... it's just wire, what did they expect?
A few years ago my little audio group did a test... we put up a bedsheet to hide the system and gathered the group for a "Mystery A/B test" we asked them only to note any differences they heard and which they preferred ... nobody knew what was being tested.
We played short clips on A then repeated them on B ... with half a dozen clips. The total test time was about an hour since we didn't want to wear out their patience.
It went like this... clip plays ... behind the curtains we very quickly made our change... clip plays again. People make their notes. Then the next clip...
The final vote was down to almost a tie between A and B with nobody noting "same".
But here's the thing... We didn't change anything. My buddy and I got behind the curtain, made some hushed chatter, moved the curtain a bit with our arms and butts... then played the next clip.
The resulting discussion pretty much put an end to that group's long debates about cables and sound quality.
Pretty interesting experiment and somewhat predicable results to a certain extent. I do hide things as best I can by covering the cables up so you don't know what is B or C in my case. I appreciate you sharing this!
Clock radio level systems and low knowledge you refer to do not have qualities that show differences
Fourty years of training on low mode level electronics?
@@vintageaudioreviewIf you are interested in facts you may want to try that same thoughts process with MIT ACC268 speaker cable consoles. This will show how lacking in knowledge and know how of doing almost ALL ARE.
@@davidcross890
Not exactly ... the system behind the curtains was a $15,000 setup, owned by one of the group's members and, in any case, we were looking for differences not qualitative analysis.
What is the difference between a $4,000 speaker cable and a $14.00 speaker cable?
$3,986.00
Pretty much from what I have seen...maybe some aesthetics.
Nothing.
@@donbest5024
$3,986.00 is NOT "nothing".
The snake oil business is alive and well in the high end audio industry.
I have tried the high end interconnects and speaker wire and it's all b.s.
Grabbed some ofc wire and Amazon Basics interconnects and there is no difference between the Audio Quest or Kimber Kable that I foolishly spent $$$ on.
Thanks for the comment and I think the snake oil part of the business will probably always be there.
@@vintageaudioreview
Only as long as we keep buying their crap.
@@Douglas_Blake_579 Though some of does look pretty cool!
@@vintageaudioreview
But why does it have to look "cool" if it's hidden behind your stereo stand?
@@Douglas_Blake_579 I am thinking about the folks that have large monoblocks up on some stand (fancy most likely) where the wires would be readily seen. This is not the case for the majority of us, and in those cases it is probably somewhat important from an aesthetic (and maybe ego) point of view to have "nice looking" speaker cables- I certainly get that point of view. (chuckling) I imagine the speaker cables would probably be up on risers to improve the sound, though...
What you hear in better quality cables often is not the tone, not an analysis of the bass, the midrange or the treble, it's in hearing the improved detail, transparency and spatiality of the 3-dimensional stereo image. But in order to hear those differences it comes down to setup. If a system is set up to present an accurate presentation of the stereo image then those differences can be become much more clear. If the system is not set up for that and one is merely listening for differences in tonality, whether they hear more or less bass, if vocals sound drastically different, or that a hi-hat is transformed, then you are not going to hear a huge difference. To reap the benefits of quality cables you need to have a properly set up system to maximize the stereo image and often the set up should include proper room treatments. You may say then, well why the heck do i need to go through all of that work to be able to hear differences in cables? You don't. It all depends on what you want. I say to each their own then. There is a market for higher quality cables because it caters to those who have a system set up to benefit from those cables. If you don't want to hear the differences cables make then just stick with the setup you have and carry on. For those of us who are maximizing the reproduction of the stereo image we will then reap the benefits of higher quality cabling.
You put some time & thought into your comments and I appreciate that. There have been a few arguments about cables effecting the stereo image, but basically just a slight movement of your head will effect the image more than the cables....but you can spend your money however you want in your search for audio nirvana- that is part of the hobby.
@@vintageaudioreview Thanks. I would not argue that the differences cables make is gigantic. But it's at times quite noticeable in the right systems and it comes down to how much you want to spend for those small improvements and what they mean to you. I don't have the money for super expensive cables but even if I did I don't have interest in them. All my cabling - speaker cables, interconnects, digital and power all add up to less $1k and that's the most I want t spend but to me they are worth it because they have all made a very clear and meaningful difference but I'm not interested in spending more for a tiny bit more of a difference. I know that you could reply and say that all of your cables add up to less than $50 total, I get it.
@@sean_heisler I have no problem on spending whatever you want on cables, and $1k does not sound too bad at all. Sometimes the cables look neat and have a good feel to them. If your cables are exposed then looks can play a part for some. It will be interesting to see the comments on another cable test I did that will be out in a few weeks.
@sean_heisler
In reality, the quality of the 3-dimensional Imaging and Soundstage performance of loudspeakers have absolutely nothing to do with what speaker cables you are using.
The properties, quality, or "precision" of the Imaging and Soundstage are determined first by what is captured or mixed into the recording itself, and secondly by the design and quality of the speakers themselves plus the acoustics of the room they are placed in. There is a third very important factor...
In order for our auditory system to perceive a more accurate/more focused soundstage that reproduces exactly what is captured or mixed into the recording, the single most important factor is that the Amplitude Response (Level vs. Frequency, or "Frequency Response") Between the Right AND Left loudspeakers be as Closely Matched and as similar as possible At Your Listening Position.
An imbalance between the Frequency Response of the Left vs. Right speakers will make it difficult to achieve good imaging.
Achieving good imaging and soundstage performance with loudspeakers that are placed in a non-symmetrical room can be problematic. For example, when you have your speakers placed in a living room in an open-plan home where one speaker is in a corner with both a wall to the side and behind the speaker, while the other speaker has the same wall behind it, but no side wall because that side of the room is open to another adjacent living area such as the kitchen or dining area.
In this scenario, due to the difference in reflections as well as the difference in boundary-loading and "room gain" between the left and right speakers, the Left vs. Right Frequency Response will be quite different, and the imaging/soundstage performance will suffer.
The ratio of the direct sound from the speakers vs. the reflected sound from the room will also have an effect on the quality of the imaging, especially if one side is different than the other.
Excellent imaging and soundstage performance is easier to achieve when you eliminate or mitigate most of the room's acoustic interactions and influence on the sound that you hear from the loudspeakers, and is the primary reason that the majority of recording, mixing, and mastering engineers generally use "nearfield" studio monitors while producing the music that we all listen to.
Listening to speakers that were designed to be precisely matched to each other in regards to frequency response and dispersion, as well as listening to them in a nearfield environment provides for the most accurate reproduction of the imaging and soundstage in the recording, NOT speaker cables!
This is another reason why even relatively inexpensive earbuds or headphones usually do a good job of providing good Left-to-Right imaging and focus. However, they usually lack some of the crosstalk and HRTF/head-shadowing imaging cues we hear when listening to loudspeakers in a typical room which are time-arrival based (ITD) and help to provide a perception of Depth and "Room Ambiance" or the size of the performance venue.
Swapping speaker cables has NO affect on ANY of these properties. If for some reason you do have poorly designed speaker cables that alter the frequency response of the speakers due to excessive resistance, capacitance, inductance, etc, when you switch to a different pair of speakers cables that do not have this issue, even though the overall FR might be slightly different between each set of cables, BOTH speakers will STILL BE MATCHED to each other because you are using the same SET of cables for both speakers.
And in reality, moving your head just 12" up/down/left/right from the MLP has far more potential to change the response and imaging/soundstage performance compared to any differences another set of speaker cables will make!
On high resolutions system everything can be heard!
You DONT have high resolution system.
So if you dont hear difference, than what is the point of this stupid video???
Everything can be heard….
Thanks for the comment, though I will disagree. What are the specs for a "High resolution System" ?
Okay ... time to "out" this Transparent Cable nonsense...
I've just sent Scott a link to an article where they did open the expensive cable to see what is inside... (I can't post it here... but he can)
The big blob contains a 2.5 microhenry coil in series with the red speaker lead and a 1000pf (0.1uf) capacitor with a 31 ohm resistor in series across the red and black wires.
That is about $5.00 worth of parts.
It forms a very ineffective LC low pass network that in simulation causes a 0.5db drop at 20khz. ... and does nothing else.
This is commonly called a Zobel network and it's primary function is preventing amplifier oscillations above about 50khz... but any decent amplifier already has that built in.
No way on earth they're worth $4,000 each.
Thanks Doug! Here is the link he mentioned:
www.instructables.com/How-to-make-a-Transparent-Audio-Reference-XL-Speak/
I did not notice any drop off in the Frequency response that I measured. I am wondering what the criteria is for "tuning" that they employ?
@@vintageaudioreview
Dollars against Donut Holes ... You send it in, they send it back.
The article contains pictures of the opened blob... it's all potted.
The X-Ray is particularly telling.
Hey!
I like that you did this test.
The underlying issue you were testing is if an 8K cable sounds much better than a DIY home made cable. Note that while you did see a measurable difference between the two, you discounted it because it could be within the 'noise' or testing error.
But in your test, there are a couple of issues.
The biggest is that you only set up a single speaker for the test rather than create a stereo image.
Of all of the people talking about the coloration of the music depending on amp, DAC or other hardware of the speaker... they also claim that the cables can also add to this. That there may be subtle differences with the overall sound image based on the cable. (e.g. sound stage, separation, focus... etc ...) So unless you ran two speakers ... you lose that.
Overall, I would argue against spending $$$$ on cables, but I'd also argue about going too cheap.
OFC is a must. Then there's the gauge and shielding of the cable wires, and your connectors.
I suggest that you look at the retail cost of your components. Depending on length and quality of cable... you can spend up to $300.00 to make high quality stereo cables.
But $300.00 is much less than $8K which would be better spent on other components to give you a better sound. Even in my small room, my cables are ~20ft in length because I have to run them behind cabinets and out of sight. (Hence the higher cost)
Just my $0.02.
Thanks so much for taking the time to comment- with reasonable ones. I get your take on using two speakers for the "separation", but I don't believe there is any scientific basis for such a claim. Both speaker cables, assuming the lengths are pretty close to the same, would effect the signal the same amount. My a/b switching box does not have enough inputs and outputs to allow for a stereo testing of the cables is another reason I did not do that. I am pretty sure I went over the cost of what I used on my cables, and I screwed up by using copper clad aluminum wire instead of OFC wire, which made the point even better according to many of the comments. So far the cables that I made have been holding up well...
@@vintageaudioreview
Hi, scientifically speaking,
you already tested the cable which showed a measurable difference, albeit a small one.
And that's key. 8K vs ~$100.00 (rounding up) That's $7,900 that could go towards better speakers, amp, dac, etc... which will impact your sound.
The point of the A/B testing isn't scientific but more subjective and its the imaging of the sound that may be noticeable.
Oh and I'm not saying there was anything wrong with what you made.
When you go to source your wire, you're limited to what's available in your local brick/mortar store... in terms of quality and wire gauge. If you're looking at 10-12ft or less, you could go w 14AWG and longer 12AWG.
If you go online, you can get better wire if you want. If you look at some of the UA-cam videos, you'll see people using Magomi ?sp? 4 wire cable and then pairing them. So 2 12 AWG would give you 10AWG. Then on to better banana plugs and you've got really good cables.
Overall, I would encourage people to make their own cables and avoid the 'snake oil' stuff.
@@michaelsegel8758 How about considering a/b testing as a scientific way of doing subjective testing 😄 There are certainly some good videos on UA-cam making your own cables. If you find some McIntosh owner's manuals from the 70's, they often tell you what gauge "zipcord" you should use to connect your amp to your speakers depending on how far away they are. 12 gauge OFC speaker wire is going to work well for darn near everyone- The idea of using Magomi 4 wire cable is probably fine and might be a fun project, I suppose.
For $9k I need a night and day difference...
Indeed!
Before you start. Your cable won't work fine for girls bedroom after a week of Listening. That is when you find out.
Now the crazy price is another story.
You should live for a week or 2 weeks with the over the top cable
That is when you notice. Also when you tin your wire. Sound has to pass over the tin making A Dam no tin better sound blind or A , B test are. B. S LIVE with the good wire. You will miss it.
Blind test on DAC,s
Amps. Easier
Thanks for the humor!
I've always know that there would be no difference, but you will still get people say you can not measure the audile difference of the more expensive cable. $8k will get you a nice audio system and a 65 inch Tv. 😉
Thanks for your insight!
My little system (small but not limited) came in just under $1,500 with a 50 inch TV, NUC configured as an HTPC, 4tb of storage, UGreen DAC, Fosi TB10D amp and Pioneer tower speakers. A little tinkering with part values and some polyfil and voila decent system that will last for many years. Beyond that lies the dreaded world of diminishing returns.
One of the local efetes got wind of what I am using and spent quite the effort running me into the ground about it. Cost me a few customers, too. So finally I ends up nose to nose with hiim: "You think my system is trash? Why don't you come over and actually listen to it before you dump on it..." He came, he listened, he went silent, he left and I haven't heard from him or about him since.
The truth of the matter is that cheap audio is getting better and better audio is getting cheaper all the time.
@@Douglas_Blake_579 Great story and some of those inexpensive amps do a great job...
@@vintageaudioreview
A lot of progress in Class D has happened recently.
With the introduction of the TPA32xx series chips TI has pretty much revolutionized it. These chips can be found in powered studio monitors, sound reinforcement, public address, high end home theatre... and, yes, even in high end stereo gear.
The ICE Power modules everyone rages about started with TPA3251 chips for the 50w/ch and TPA3255 for the 100w/ch units. The higher power ones are, of course designed with discrete components.
Then there are the Purifi and Hypex modules everyone rages about.
The Chinese versions of these amplifiers are basically stripped down versions of the more feature laden (read "expensive") versions you find elsewhere. The smaller sizes are possible by moving the power supply outside the chassis and the relatively small number of parts needed to make the chip happy. Miniaturization at it's finest. As long as they're not using fake or underrated parts, they're no less capable than the "big boy" versions you find in other equipment.
The thing is the Chinese manufacturers are still learning how to use these chips to advantage. For example:
I recently did a "deep dive" examination on the Fosi TB10D amplifier. Nice compact unit with tone controls. There were a couple of minor problems with overvoltage on the reset pin (easily fixed) and they had placed the output coils right against the heat sink, causing all kinds of bizarre eddy current problems. I pulled out my hacksaw and took one fin off the heatsink to create some space between it and the coils.
The result... one sweet sounding amplifier that mostly runs at room temperature on 36 volts, producing 60w/ch RMS on 8 ohms with a flat response from 5hz to 25khz and distortion below the 0.01% threshold of my current test equipment at 99% output power.
That's better than about 80% of the stuff these big huffy audiophiles are using. Of course the big advantage is that it, along with my HTPC, hard drive, DAC and their assorted power bricks fit nicely into a vacant drawer cavity in my TV stand.
So what's not to like?
@@Douglas_Blake_579 Have only listened toto the little Aiyma amps, but they sound just fine to me and a few others that have heard them...most likely will be the subject of another a/b test....
I bought my first good system from an audiophile store that opened up across the street from the restaurant I was the chef at the time. We fed the guys after hours a few times as they were getting open so we had a good relationship. I don't think I paid much more than cost for the little system I bought from them. One day a big-money buyer was auditioning some Wilson speakers and switching between Nordost and Transparent cables. Both cost exponentially more than my 2 channel system. One of the owners turned to me in the other room and said it didn't really matter because both were just a tax on the gullible. They all used DIY stuff in their own homes and had settled on the fact that you can't convince someone buying $45K speakers that $50 cables will essentially sound the same as $5000 cables.
Thanks so much for sharing your story and I like calling them a "tax on the gullible". As I said in the video, the cables look cool and you can spend your $$'s however you want, but when you tell me they are going to sound better I am going to be doubtful.
*Sorry, but this test was flawed.*
And I am actually surprised that none of the participants pointed this out.
By listening to only 1 speaker, and not a pair, you are missing/ignoring a huge aspect of sound reproduction, and that is of course, the reproduction of spatial cues. Which contributes to soundstage width and depth, the ambience of the acoustic space the recording was made in. Imaging of the musicians within that acoustic space, the layering of the soundstage, etc.
The human auditory system is capable of hearing interaural time differences as low as 7-10 microseconds. This is an evolved survival tool; our ancestors needed to know where (distance, direction, height, etc) in space a noise in the forest was coming from, to determine if it was a threat or food, for example. Obviously
We leverage this aspect of our auditory system: to hear a soundstage, the ambience of the acoustic space where the musicians were playing, the location of the musicians within that soundstage, etc.
Let me state that I took part in a double blind test about 4-5 years ago comparing speaker cables, and I was able to consistently pick out 1 over the other. The cheapest cable we compared were a pair of $100 Blue Jeans cables, and the most expensive, a pair of $4,000 Purist Audio.
The way I was able to pick out 1 cable over the other, was by listening to the soundstage size and depth, the specificity of the musicians within the soundstage, and other spatial cues. Better speaker cables are better at keeping those very tiny (7-10 microseconds) time intact.
I could add, which I may later, the reason why some cables are better at retaining these spatial cues than others.
Thanks for taking a lot of time to express your thoughts and the idea of using just one speaker and the spatial cues, was addressed pretty well by @douglas_blake_579 somewhere amongst the multitude of comments for this video.
@@vintageaudioreview I'd be interested in hearing their take, but I can't find the comment you refer to .
@@pandstar I am going to copy and past his comment here for you from 2weeks ago:
Since the topic of Subjective testing in stereo keeps coming up...
(This is a re-post of one of my comments under another video)
===
1) Why you cannot subjectively evaluate any part of an audio system.
(Don't even think about arguing with me until you try this simple experiment.)
Take any stereo setup in any room, no matter how good or bad, then play monophonic pink noise through the speakers, at a "conversational level" ...
Find the spot where the sound is directly straight in front of you.
Now, slowly move your head about 3 inches left or right of that ideal centre position...
What did you hear?
When you moved off of the dead centre between the speakers, you heard the sound get a little brighter and a bit louder; what an audiophile would describe as "presence". As you moved further from centre by the first tiny bit, if you went left, the apparent sound source went right, then as you move further it will suddenly jump to the left; "soundstage".
Then if you continue by moving your speakers, you will notice, the further apart your speakers are, or the closer you sit to them, the worse this gets.
This is a phenomenon known as "Mid-Field Cancellation" and there is absolutely nothing anyone can do about it. It is caused by the difference in distance from you left speaker to your left ear and to your right ear. Of course this also happens with the right speaker, as well. At about 1600 to 2200hz, depending on the size of your head, the sound in the far ear is behind that in the near one, it is late and it's out of phase... and it cancels.
Now we know that a move of just an inch or so off of perfect centre changes what you hear. The question is, how often, when evaluating a new speaker, cable, device... have you plopped your butt back down into your chair an inch off from your previous listening position only to judge the new wateveryacallit as being "more open and present with a better soundstage"?
What are you actually judging... the device or your current listening position?
2) Why you cannot subjectively judge tonal balance:
(And again ... don't even bother disagreeing until you try this)
Play a monophonic tone at about 10khz from both your speakers. This will be very piercing so keep the volume down.
Now slowly rock your head a little bit toward one speaker then the other.
What do you hear?
Yep, you heard the tone get louder and quieter as you moved. You probably also noticed that it's left-right balance shifted cyclically as you moved, first favouring the near side then the far side.
This is "Treble Cancellation" and it is caused by differences in the distance between your head and the speakers. At 10khz the in-room wavelength is about 1.3 inches or 3.3cm ... a move of just half that much will actually put your tweeters out of phase at your ears causing a dip in level and a shift in direction.
Again... even the slightest shift in listening positions will change your perception of the sound.
3) The BIG question....
Now ask how many millions of dollars have been spent because of these simple facts of life?
Measurements would have confirmed these simple differences are or are not real.
===
Both measurement and listening tests should be used together.
Lol, cable mens what do you have to say
The latest likes vs dislikes is at ~95 so it seems the "cable mens" are in the minority.
Do I think speaker cables sound different? Yes, but it is about the smallest change you can make.
Do I think DIY can sound great. Yeh. That is what I use.
I think interconnects make a much bigger difference. I find my diy far better than any commercial cable I have heard, but I have not heard many.
I am guessing that your DIY are speaker cables and that you did not spend more than $50 on them, and you don't need to try anything else if they are doing the job. Thanks for the comments!
@@vintageaudioreview Yes. My system is entirely DIY and the speaker cables cost $20 for the wire. Basically a litz cable made from 24strands of 24 gauge Teflon insulated copper.
@@user-od9iz9cv1w That took a bit of time to wrap/twist 24 wires together ane remove the teflon, but am glad it worked great for you!
The good old snake oil of speaker cables . Still waiting in gr research’s ab video comparison for his so called speaker cables for the goods . Sometimes money buys you good looking cable bling but won’t buy brains
I did watch a video from another youtuber who went to GR and supposedly Danny was able to tell the difference between the cheap cable and his....
@@vintageaudioreviewit’s the supposedly part that makes me laugh. I would love him to do the hanger test😂😂😂
@@waterlover Luckily we get some humor here...
You are very right I don't believe in expansive cables as well I'll just put my money into nice vintage equipment rather than buying expansive cables
My feelings as well!
I kind of agree. There may not be much of a difference between $300 vs $10000 cables but I know there is a difference between $20 vs $300.
@@Simon-oq6ds Well put!
Every time a high-end cable is tested and the results are "no difference" (which seems like every test outside the manufacturer's lab) the "Your system, ears, room, electricity, and/or snacks lack in these ways, obscuring the obvious benefits ..." name-calling and handwaving fanboys come out in force. If the "obvious benefits" are only obvious with the highest of high-end systems, isn't it slimy and bordering on immoral to sell me something this expensive that I have no chance of enjoying? Perhaps the manufacturers should have a Minimum Requirements list (like Microsoft publishes each time a new version of Windows comes out) so as to avoid disappointment and outright failure. As any scientist will tell you if something can't be independently verified (which requires the manufacturer to share all the details of the testing and methodology) then the claim isn't a fact.
I really appreciate your taking the time to expound on this video. Interesting idea about having a minimum requirement, which thinking about it, would include everything from speakers to the room..and maybe even a hearing test...I have no problem with someone wanting to purchase something so expensive if they can afford it- like owning a Rolex when a $100 Casio will keep just as good as time.
"Any claim made out of hand can be dismissed out of hand"
Hitchen's Razor... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitchens%27s_razor
It always seems, if the really expensive component doesn't prevail in these sort of A/B tests, the response from the manufacturer or salesman of overpriced gear is always...." well, your system just isn't resolving enough to "hear " the difference.....🙄
@@danb.9891
The correct answer is that the cable doesn't make enough difference for it to become obvious.
The audiophool will claim they can hear differences that others say they cannot, hence establishing their superiority to the flock.
I don't like to refer to folks as audiophools, but there I times I just wonder about certain claims that are made about gear sounding better after tweaking certain things, but most folks that do, don't claim they are superior or their gear is superior for the most part....- thanks for the comment!
@@vintageaudioreview I don’t usually use that term, but sometimes it just comes out 😂
@@richardgoldsmith8592 No problem and hope you keep watching the videos...
The network is useless.
I would agree, but there were a few comments that I needed to send the cable back for calibration.....
Since the topic of Subjective testing in stereo keeps coming up...
(This is a re-post of one of my comments under another video)
===
1) Why you cannot subjectively evaluate any part of an audio system.
(Don't even think about arguing with me until you try this simple experiment.)
Take any stereo setup in any room, no matter how good or bad, then play monophonic pink noise through the speakers, at a "conversational level" ...
Find the spot where the sound is directly straight in front of you.
Now, slowly move your head about 3 inches left or right of that ideal centre position...
What did you hear?
When you moved off of the dead centre between the speakers, you heard the sound get a little brighter and a bit louder; what an audiophile would describe as "presence". As you moved further from centre by the first tiny bit, if you went left, the apparent sound source went right, then as you move further it will suddenly jump to the left; "soundstage".
Then if you continue by moving your speakers, you will notice, the further apart your speakers are, or the closer you sit to them, the worse this gets.
This is a phenomenon known as "Mid-Field Cancellation" and there is absolutely nothing anyone can do about it. It is caused by the difference in distance from you left speaker to your left ear and to your right ear. Of course this also happens with the right speaker, as well. At about 1600 to 2200hz, depending on the size of your head, the sound in the far ear is behind that in the near one, it is late and it's out of phase... and it cancels.
Now we know that a move of just an inch or so off of perfect centre changes what you hear. The question is, how often, when evaluating a new speaker, cable, device... have you plopped your butt back down into your chair an inch off from your previous listening position only to judge the new wateveryacallit as being "more open and present with a better soundstage"?
What are you actually judging... the device or your current listening position?
2) Why you cannot subjectively judge tonal balance:
(And again ... don't even bother disagreeing until you try this)
Play a monophonic tone at about 10khz from both your speakers. This will be very piercing so keep the volume down.
Now slowly rock your head a little bit toward one speaker then the other.
What do you hear?
Yep, you heard the tone get louder and quieter as you moved. You probably also noticed that it's left-right balance shifted cyclically as you moved, first favouring the near side then the far side.
This is "Treble Cancellation" and it is caused by differences in the distance between your head and the speakers. At 10khz the in-room wavelength is about 1.3 inches or 3.3cm ... a move of just half that much will actually put your tweeters out of phase at your ears causing a dip in level and a shift in direction.
Again... even the slightest shift in listening positions will change your perception of the sound.
3) The BIG question....
Now ask how many millions of dollars have been spent because of these simple facts of life?
Measurements would have confirmed these simple differences are or are not real.
===
Both measurement and listening tests should be used together.
Well put once again, Professor. Having the a/b switching done by the remote controlled switch does help in eliminanting changing the user's head position to a certain extent, but even that is not perfect.....
@@vintageaudioreview
Actually the biggest part of overcoming that problem is that you tested in mono with a single speaker.
@@Douglas_Blake_579 To be honest, that was mainly due to the limitations of my switch box plus I was looking for tonal differences and not concerned about anything else that would have been hard to hear.....
@@vintageaudioreview
Accidentailly or otherwise, it worked out for the better.
I can tell the value of audio equipment just by looking at the price tag. Seriously. The more expensive it is, the more amazing it sounds. Don't let anybody tell you otherwise. ;-)
I appreciate the comment, though I and many others would disagree with you, as would most of the science. But people can spend the money on whatever floats their boat, I suppose.
@@vintageaudioreview It is true that sarcasm doesn't work on the internet. I should have made it stronger and so should you have. :-)
@@lepidoptera9337 Ok, I am at my PC working on my next video and at 1st thought it was sarcasm, but then I didn't. Earlier this week I had a similar comment on the RCA cable test video, but I caught that one. But I know people (audio folks) that do think the more expensive it is, the better- at least to a point. Thanks again for the humorous comment!
@@vintageaudioreview There is so much nonsense on the internet that it drowns out even attempts at humor, doesn't it? The sad part is that there is actually very good audio equipment at very reasonable price points nowadays. All this "high end" stuff does, at the end of the day, only get in the way of the music. Peace!
I just think people need to stay away from audiophile dealers and not be talked into spending ridiculous amount of money on products they don't actually need.
Thanks for taking a moment to comment. I would agree with you other than I am sure there are several folks who can well afford such expensive cables and would do so just for their looks, which is their prerogative....
Electrons do not flow any better through pretty wire.
Most of the comments would second your motion.....
Transparent audio representative...chime in!
That would be interesting if they did....
@@vintageaudioreview
Wringing hands in anticipation ....
Thanks for doing this test of speaker cables, I wonder if you have seen this video of another speaker cable test, and did you hear a difference between the two cables in the video?
ua-cam.com/video/bvbP2uu0U0M/v-deo.html
Thanks for the comment and I was aware of that video. W/out trying to disparage another youtube channel, I always dismiss any attempt to try to recreate what they are hearing vs what you are hearing on your computer or sound system, regardless of they used to record the demo. I only will play music to show that something is working, or maybe how the meters work, and never to try to convey the quality of sound, which for most UA-cam would be mp3 quality unless you subscribe to their HD service. My test allows for an immediate comparison between the two cables- within a 100ms if I remember correctly. No connecting and reconnecting cables- that may take a minute or possibly longer. I don't have any products to sell so I don't have a vested interest in in expensive cables sounding better... not to mention that the science is not there for it...
I never understood these type of comparisons. Cables do sound different from each other regardless of what is on a scope. Capacitance is the biggest factor as well as the quality of materials. You choose cables based on the character of the hardware you are using and what direction you want to go sonically.
Thanks for your comment, though I respectfully disagree with you....
Nope. It's just wire.
@@Douglas_Blake_579 I guess, it's just tubes, it's just a cartridge, just a turntable, etc. If the cables don't matter that much to the sound , then none of it does.
@@RACKDOCTOR
Grab yourself a dictionary and look up "Hyperbole" ...
@@Douglas_Blake_579 Wasn't sure if you were being Hyperbolic.
I thought Kimber braided cable was too bright for my system, and definitely heard a warmer sound when i switched to my current MIT cables.
Thanks for your comment and I am glad that you like your cables, but saying they provide warmer sound would be something that would go against what I experienced in this video with the cables that I tested and used.
Not really. My comment refers to Kimber and MIT. Your video refers to Transparent and your own creation. Both things could be true. @@vintageaudioreview
@@mantosof I guess you could call me a cable denier for the most part. At least so far.
Yes Kimber can sound bright which is why I preferred Audioquest. To me MIT cables are too warm sounding. These days people seem to like the Shinyata cables which I haven't yet heard in my system.
Nice to have a gathering of like-minded people. I've been experimenting with cables for 50 years and end up with about these results, but it's exciting to try. As for signal cables, then I have other experiences. Thank you for your dedication
Thanks for the kind words! I am sure I will get around to signal cables....
I have the KEF R5 Metas and did an A/B on my system between Blue Jeans and Kimber Kable. I did notice a difference even using a Denon AVR. The Kimber sounded 'crisper' and the highs were cleaner whereas to me, the Blue Jeans sounded more like is forwarding mostly mid-range. But that's me.
Thanks for taking the time to comment, though I am skeptical about most cables making any difference, but as long as you are happy with your choice, that is what is most important.
@GermanRedrum
The KEF R5 META are great speakers. 👍
In your comment above, you said that you "did an A/B on my system between Blue Jeans and Kimber Kable."
Was that "A/B" comparison 100% un-sighted (i.e. "BLIND"), meaning that you never had any idea which cable was being used at any given time during the A/B listening test?
And if so, did you consistently choose cable "A" vs cable "B", or vice versus, at least 9 out of 10 times in a row?
snake oil bs
Most folks 2nd that opinion! Thanks for the comment
hmmm - - both testing cables ultimately running through another cable, which looks to be stock Monster, but no matter - but how can ya tell between anything when everything is going through that cable 1st, meaning before the speaker? Bad enough that the colorations of using a single speaker will also cloud the results, meaning the ONLY speaker and it's particular colorations and it's particular internal wiring, not that you're listening to a "single" speaker in mono. You're not only implying, but you're saying that the added in cable is only a couple of feet long so shouldn't affect much and that's not to mention a switching box along with multiple added connections of the extra cable and the box itself (oh, none of that will matter, right?) This must be a joke. Would have made more sense to test the switch box in and out of the system to get a hearing handle on what effects it has before introducing it like it doesn't even matter, right? I have to mention, perhaps a bit of nit picking, but I found it to be bothersome that you constantly refer to your "single" cable as costing 14 bucks but a "PAIR" of MIT's is 9K, a rather obvious attempt on your part to exacerbate the cost differences. You can delete my comment - but come on, I thought I was watching a comedy sketch and I'm not even arguing one cable possibly being better sounding than the other - I'm sighting that this test set up would veil ANY comparisons of any cables regardless of price or performance - a total waste of time for you and anyone that trekked to your testing room and a big shocker, actually not, that the results were more or less ambiguous. If this is a soap box for "don't spend money" - you made absolutely no argument. All on the other hand, it's not escaping me that you went to some trouble to do all of this, even though I think it's a very flawed test I do appreciate you posting it regardless. So, thank you anyway.
Thanks for your long commentary. First, I would never delete a post unless it was filled with profanity (has not happened) or is a spam post ("Make $4000/day doing...", which has happened a few times). I think you are kidding with my trying to exacerbate the cost differences between the cables but just saying one cable cost $14 and a pair was $8k- it was never my intent if that is was you thought. It was done at my friend's house and once again, is a get together for "audio" guys to eat, drink and meet. This is the 2nd a/b test and everyone enjoyed it, and I have two more planned. THere is no way that I know of to test compare directly, and it is only in mono, and the intent was to test the tonality. I certainly have no soap box on the subject that I was trying to promote and thought I said that you can spend your money however you want. Unless you can switch between the devices immediately- which the switch box allows for- I don't see how you can compare such small differences (IMHO). There is a paper of my measurements on the switch box, which show that it does not effect the electrical properties that much at all (it does have an effect), but both cables were switched through it and effected the same- I did mention both the switch box and the small cable as being in the path. I described the small cable- it was actually two stranded 12gauge OFC NOS Realistic brand cables per each "+" & "-" lead that were soldered together at the ends- lots of resistance I am sure. Once again, I do appreciate your comments and thoughtfulness with them.
@@vintageaudioreview Thanks for replying - umm, the delete thing is just me not wanting to "rock the boat" with your regular viewers - it's a negative comment and I appreciate that you read it and responded, but of course it would be fine by me if you dumped it, and it's fine by me if you dump this - frankly - the cable thing is only a "thing" to those that haven't experienced the vast range of cable offerings, perhaps ranging from that skinny wire Radio Shack used to sell as speaker wire (I bet you remember that stuff) all the way to reference level stuff and the need to rob a bank to buy it. Let's be honest with each other, do you really think your DIY cable and the Transparent Cable, both running in a reference level system would sound the same? I'm not even asking if you think one would be better than the other, but do you honestly think there would be no difference at all in how they sound? Hey, maybe there wouldn't be, but the test you conducted here would never, as I've already pointed out, reveal much of anything anyway - again, no matter because you'd have a hard time convincing me that, used as intended, you yourself would expect the differences to be indiscernible or that basically both cables would sound the "same", that is, no switch box, no patch cable, direct connections, decent system etc. And that's not to say that sure, both you and I know we're only talking stereo here - and yes, for the sake of my perspective, I'm currently running full loom high end reference cabling - but I'm from way back too - I've played around with all kinds of wire & cables including that skinny stuff, actually, thinking back, I used it for quite a long time in the 70's and like most stereo lovers of that time, I was none the wiser, I loved my system then, and I love my system now - it's about getting off on the music - I can feel musically emotional with music coming from my less than average stock FM radio while driving down the street in my GMC Savana van - and at the other end of that spectrum, and speaking only from personal experience I'm flat out saying that the skinny stuff, and most cables in between, all the way to Nordost Vahalla II which I'm running now simply do not sound the same - everything makes a difference, everything - and again, I'm not talking about one thing being "better" than the other - but there's no denying everything, including speaker wire can and will sound different without the need for a switch box to hear it - but - on the other hand and as I'm tying to express - and - I'd bet we'd both agree on - that is definitely not a pre-request for "enjoying" music. That idea however, does not dismiss that there are differences - and again, my personal perspective & philosophy doesn't include, for example, a listener with a 5K system running out and buying 12K speaker cables either - for sure and of course, that's a diminishing return thing, but that also doesn't mean one would likely hear no difference at all given that scenario, because that too would be equally unlikely regardless of the cost or that one would never experience that 12K value. Anyway, what I'm driving at is that I'm trying to be, or I am the guy standing in the middle ground - either extreme: cables do magic/ cables don't do anything - is simply not true - and yes, any sort of a difference, even minor ones can have some listeners running around expressing magic, I'm not one of those guys. I respect you and believe from watching you and conversing with you that you're too smart of a guy to commit to either of those extremes yourself, even in the light of your questionable testing video.
@@skip1835 As most of my reviews are how equipment performs after many years, I have not had anything like what has happened with this video- and it is a good thing I am retired as I do reply to every comment that I see, so it has taken many hours of time, which is fine as it keep me off the street at nights. Not even when I did the tube vs solid state amps did I get this reaction. Most of the comments have been more in favor with the cables not making as much a difference once they are say a decent gauge- for me that would be 12gauge, but good old OFC "zip cord" would do for the majority of folks (IMHO). Science does not support the claims of cables sounding different when paired with a decent amplifier- there was a suggestion that I should have done a null test measuring any difference between cables, but that would not have engaged my friends. If I had two expensive and huge monoblocks setting on my living room floor, having 14gauge zip cord is not going look very impressive- I get that. I would also agree that someone having a $5k stereo system is probably not going to run out and get these cables. I do have another a/b test coming up in the next few months that will involve a cable test, but not speaker cables, but will involve a switch box, though a different one and a small adapter will be needed- this one just kinda fell into my lap, so to speak and it will be interesting to see how that one goes... At heart I am an audio gear guy and just like what I am listening to sound pretty good- perfection will never be achieved and I am not one that will spend a lot of time trying to swap this out for that little bit more of the audio nirvana- but there are many folks that do and it is a hobby after all. I mentioned in a few comments that my group will be getting together in later Jan. for a/b test between two very different integrated amps, not really a right or wrong kinda thing, just which did you prefer......It is nice having an intelligent discourse with you, but I have to get back to assembling my Carver Cube....
@@vintageaudioreview Ha! too funny my friend, and I am assuming you're pulling my leg a bit - but ah, the old Carver Cube, was it a class H or something, I don't recall exactly - - true story, I once called into a hi-fi radio show that came out of Boston - at the time I was fortunate enough to have an original Ampzilla from GAS (Great American Sound) - anyway I posed the question as the Carver Cube was making the scene and generating a lot of curiosity - and oddly, driving the question was that the specs between the huge Ampzilla and Bob Carver's cube were virtually the same - this is way back - the Ampzilla was driving Time Windows which might jog a time frame reference for you - and in those days we were really on a step learning curve (although I think by then we had figured out the original Monster Speaker Cable sounded better than zip wire, maybe much to do with it's gauge as you pointed out) Of course I wanted to know if those guys on the show thought the two amps might sound the same, the Carver was much less money - I will give them credit as none of the 3 guys would tackle the question head on - you know, like in those days most of us thought similar or matching specs for an amp should mean it should sound the same or similar - - they were more informed than I in that they knew better than to make any such prediction - but that was a cool moment for me because they didn't care about the question so much as they wanted to know about the Ampzilla and the Time Windows which surprised me in that moment but admittedly stroked my ego a bit - that was one amplifier that I should have kept, but who knew back then that to this day it would still be coveted, more for it's brute power and looks than it's rather hard, Bipolor transistor sound - gawd I miss that amp, it was built literally like a tank - - anyway - catch ya later and happy listening - - don't waste another minute of time responding to this one - I've appreciated sharing with you - happy holidays and all that stuff - best wishes for your channel too.
@@skip1835 Thanks so much for your anecdote! I Have never listened or tested an Ampzilla, but can understand your wishing you had it now. Yes, I was referring to the m400a version of the Cube. Check out episode #51 on the Cube. I had two cubes running as monoblocks and decided to re-cap them, which is a royal pain. THey were working well and I decided to push them a little and one died- went into and stayed into protect mode. I decided to wait as I had already been into it a few times as I screwed something up the 1st time during reassembly. About 4months later I decided to take it apart again and found the problem and was able to repair it, and it is being tested as I am typing this- so far, so good. Aside from the low level (no signal) hum you may hear, they work really well as long as your are not DJ'ing a party. Best wishes for you as well during this holiday season
Nice video! And the crazy part is, the Transparent Audio speaker cable that you tested is one of their more "affordable" lines. Transparent Audio's top of the line speaker cable costs $77k a pair and I have heard it still made out of copper. You would think for that kind of money it would be dipped in gold! A fool and his money...
Thanks so much for commenting and I did not see ow much their most expensive cable was... for what length I wonder?
@@vintageaudioreviewI believe that is for the 8ft lengths.
@@generationbehindhifi All I can say is "wow"... must be nice to have that kind of dough.
Goldplating isn't that expensive, for that money it could be a fully gold wire, but even better would be a fully silver wire, as silver has the best conductivity. Gold is used for goldplating since it doesn't oxidize, but making full wire of gold isn't as beneficial. Long time ago I used a thin coax cable made of silver to be able to carry long distances.
@@gorankrajnovic Thanks for taking the time to comment!
Good old 16ga lamp cord from the hardware store ... still the best speaker wire.
Honestly, 16guage lamp cord would be fine for most people's needs. I am not sure that it comes in OF copper, which I would want to use as I have had 16guage wire that was not OFC corrode over time, and that is in a dry climate. If you are running less than 15' to a speaker it should not be a problem. Thanks for your input.
@@vintageaudioreview
When properly tinned and soldered, the garden variety copper lampcord gives good long service. OFC is best, I agree.
The stuff you don't want is CCA (Copper Clad Aluminum) wire. That stuff is a technicians nightmare... it actively rejects solder, reacts with brass or gold fittings and breaks real easy when bent a few times.
A 10 foot speaker cable with 16ga lamp cord has a DC resistance of about 0.08ohms so it is suitable for most stereo uses. (4 ohms/1000 feet, 20 actual feet in the cord)
@@Douglas_Blake_579 thanks for getting the resistance calculation. Years ago I read am article in stereo review or audio- probably in the mid 80's- and the author said that good old 16guage lamp cord is all most of us would need. As far as the corrosion, I am seeing it at points along the wire, which is somewhat clear, not specifically at the ends. Probably looks worse than the effect- at least at this point- by I built a match for the one wire that was used in the test so I use that now for my reviews.
@@vintageaudioreview
By corrosion I trust you mean that green mould like stuff... not simple colour changes in the copper. Usually the jacket protects the copper quite nicely and harmful corrosion only happens in exposed bare wire ... which is why we tin the ends.
Actually, the green mold stuff. If i get around to it I will email you a photo.
Even if you can afford them it doesn’t make sense to buy them.
I would agree!
If I spent $8k on a pair of cables, I would insist they were superior, to anyone who would listen. Otherwise I'm admitting I got scammed.
Thanks for the chuckle you just gave me
Whoomp ... there it is!
Good cables are available for less then $100-$150 depending on length ...
It's your money and you can buy every exotic cable you want, but never claim they are "better" ... as they aren't...
They are just looking nice and expensive... probably the real reason you bought them.
Exactly! Glad you get it- thanks for the comment!
At a show a million $ system switch between Home Depo 14ga extension cord and several Uber high end ones the majority of listeners thought the HD cable sounded better.
Good thing I was sitting down when I read your comment- thanks!
Which show was this?
Here's a better test: I was at a local high end shop and we swapped between cables from a higher-end cable to a mid-line cable.
Instantly two 21 year-olds in the back of the store looking at budget gear asked what we did because the sound stage went away.
@@VideoArchiveGuy So maybe if you are 21 and your hearing is really, really good and you have the money to spend on very expensive cables and you hear a difference, go for it.
@@vintageaudioreview It's not about being 21, it's about the level of your system and whether those changes are important to you.
For example, if you have a highly resolving system, and an additional $10,000 spent on speaker cables better resolves the space in which the original recording was made, is that worth it to you?
I'm not talking a modern "every member of the band sent in their part from home" recording, I'm talking about a 1963 recording with Frank Sinatra being recorded in a studio with the orchestra right there. Is the fact that a speaker cable upgrade allows you to resolve the size of the studio involved rather than Frank just being a voice in space worth the money to you?
For some it's everything, for others it isn't worth $10 more.
@@VideoArchiveGuy The system issue has been brought up in a few of the comments. What is a highly resolving system? Who determines the min. equip list? And what about your room and your hearing ability ?
Hilarious expose of snake oil in the most understated manner.
Thanks for the comment and it really just started out as a get together for my audio buddies- it makes it more fun to do something like this...
It's all at the connectors. Brass 99% of all connectors and is 30% conductive at best. Tellurium copper 90% conductive. You'll hear it.
Most of the connectors I have run into are not brass, or if they are, they are gold plated... Thanks for taking the time to comment!
Carver C-1 ,come on man that's the biggest pos preamp I ever owned
Sorry to hear you have such a low opinion of the C1. I have a/b'd them against several preamps and the C1 holds its own, both in sound in electrical performance. I do appreciate your taking the time to comment, though.
@@vintageaudioreview compared to what audio research,sonic frontiers,Modwright,VTL,CAT,Conrad Johnson etc etc etc, I wouldn't want it if someone gave it to me free,i fell for the Carver BS 35 years ago and it was all marketing nonsense,oh sonic halography ,yeah sure the Carver amazing speakers howrver were ahead of its time
@@stevieg2755 We are all entitled to our opinions. Bob Carver and his gear have a heck of a following and his gear typically gets a lot of views on my channel. I enjoy Sonic Holography. The only time I thought a preamp sounded markedly better than the C1, which it did, was because I had left it in Mono.
@@vintageaudioreview well maybe try a ARC ls-16 it's a big world out there
@@stevieg2755 I'm not big on audio tube preamps. I get to listen to a lot of gear, some of it "high end". My audio world is fairly large compared to many. Spend your money on speakers that you like the sound of and make sure your amp can drive them and your problems will be minimal is what I have found.
If there are arrows pointing towards the spade connectors would this not suggest the orientation they should be connected; ie signal direction of travel towards the spades, so spades connect to the load end (the speaker)?
Thanks for the comment/question. my understanding is that the arrows point towards the amp connection side. That is the way that they were measured which did not show anything abnormal at all. My electrical engineering friends laughed at the concept of the cables requiring a connection in a certain direction....
@@vintageaudioreviewUsually those arrows show direction of a signal flow from a source to a load.
@@IliyaOsnovikov
In which wire? It's an AC signal... current flows in both directions in both wires.
@@IliyaOsnovikov It is an ac so the signal flow should not be a factor. I did not see anything on their website specified that, but I did not do a "deep dive".
The arrows indicate the recommended signal flow.
Why not use L and R in mono? Then swap. No corruption.
Thanks for the question. The switch box limits how many things one can switch between. A mono signal was used going into the amplifier and then into both cables.
My approach is to let people hear both low cost and higher priced cables and let them decide if they think that the audible differences are worth what is being asked for them. My policy is that if they can get a bigger improvement in musical enjoyment by investing less, then that is the way they should go. Surely the buyer decides based on what they hear and feel, and what they want to spend. Any expensive product, such as a sports car is often bought because it brings enjoyment, not because it measures better.
I agree with you- if it brings enjoyment to you for whatever reason, go for it if you can afford it. Thanks for commenting.....
Ah, this old chestnut again.
The problem is that people think the relationship between expense and performance is entirely linear, when it most certainly is not.
Less arcanely put: above a reasonable quality/price point, the reality of 'diminishing returns' kicks in - beyond which any notions of linearity are lost.
So then, and based upon good empirical evidence and properly conducted blind listening tests, £25 - £45 is about the range to consider as a reasonable cut off point.
What then does this tell us about the individual who is willing [and indeed able] to pay the outrageously preposterous sum of £8000 for a set of cables?
a. The price of satisfaction can be exorbitant in the extreme.
b. Items of belief/faith - even in the face of all the evidence to the contrary - are an all pervading, powerful tool for the suspension of critical thinking.
C. Proof - if ever it was needed - that a fool and his money are, indeed, easily parted.
An interesting and thought provoking video.
Keep 'em comin'.
Phil.
I appreciate that, Phil!. "A fool & his money are easily parted" has come up a lot in the comments. I like to mix up my videos with different audio themed subjects, and this one struck a nerve. THere is another type of cable that will be tested at a later date...
Can these be electrically nulled like that Bob Carver amp test?
Thanks for the question. I suppose you could send the same signal into both cables- using appropriate adapters into and out of each cable- and put them into a scope where you can subtract one channel from the other, so all you are left with is the difference between the two. You could test a few frequency points across the band and see if there was any major difference, which I would guess in this case, there was not....
If there are gullible audiophiles out there to spend that kind of money, I guess there are plenty of snake oil opportunists willing to cater to them. With $8k to spare, I would rather spend it on my listening room to correct the deficiencies or acoustical aberrations that can affect the overall sound performance. Having a blind person to listen to the realism of a singer or small group of musicians and asking that blind person what they liked about their performance is a true test, that normally cannot be replicated with audiophile equipment. If the performance is so convincing to be the real deal, than I would say that the system truly has accomplished that synergy we are searching for.
Thanks for your thoughtful comments. The one about using a blind person (with good hearing) is a good one. In this test, we did have a musician listen who has good hearing. We hope to have at least one musician and maybe a singer at the next a/b test, which is in the planning stage.
Exactly what I’ve found after trying several hi-end speakers cables. Returned them all.
Glad to hear that you did not keep something you really did not need...
I see this has ignited the usual "my system is better than your system" kind of debate that every technician and engineer dreads ....
So let me just give you all a couple of simple things to think about...
Why mono instead of stereo? ...
Two word answer: Phase Cancellation.
By the time you get into the higher frequencies, about 10khz and up, what is called the "brilliance" or "presence" range, the wavelength of the audio signals in air is less than 1.5 inches... this means that any error in distance from the listening position to the stereo speakers of more than 1/4 inch could result in the tweeters being increasingly out of phase at the listening position.
Moreover, simply moving your head 3/4 inch either side of the perfect equal distance can result in significant reductions (or increases) of perceived high pitch sounds.
With a monophonic test, this doesn't happen.
Then there's the problem nobody can fix... Mid Field Cancellation
The audio wavelength in the range between 1.5 and 2.5 khz corresponds to the width of most people's heads. In a stereo system we hear both speakers with both ears and we take directional clues from the difference in amplitude, phase and arrival time at our ears, dominantly in this mid-vocal range of the spectrum.
So... with a pair of small speakers, set up a near field listening test... speakers about 3 feet away, equal distance and angle from the listening position. Now play a 2khz monophonic test tone at a low-medium level through both speakers. Find the spot where the sound appears to be dead centered between the speakers... now move your head about an inch either side of that perfect point... you will hear the loudness of the tone increase and it will seem to move toward one of the speakers. Move the other way and it happens with the other speaker.
Now repeat the same test with white noise... when you move even an inch or so the entire tonal quality of that noise will change very noticeably, becoming brighter and more present.
This issue cannot be fixed. It is cancellation caused by the distance between your ears and the arrival time of the signals from the speakers at each of your ears.
Of course, with a monophonic test this is also not an issue.
So, now we know why most stereo listening tests are a simple waste of time. Unless you are rigidly positioned between two speakers at exactly equal distances and angles, the results will change every time you move your head.
Now for the interesting question .... how close is your home setup to this ideal... equal distance, equal angles from the listening position. Yes, even 1/4 of an inch matters... Then ask yourself if you always sit in the perfect position...
Thanks for taking the time to expound upon this point. I wish I could take credit for setting up a mono test for the reasons you mentioned, but it was mainly because that is the only way it can be done with my a/b switcher. Imaging/soundstage is determined more by room acoustics, the speakers and your place in the room as you pointed out.....
@@vintageaudioreview
No worries .... it's kinda fun.
Imaging and soundstage actually come from the recorded material, not any part of your playback system.
It is impossible to create when none exists...
However; it is possible, and even easy to sabotage the one you got in the recording. Simple matters such as imperfect speaker positioning and even sitting position in the room can degrade the perception of it significantly.
I am a fan of Carver Sonic Holography and it can- depending on the source material- make an improvement in the soundstage.
@@vintageaudioreview
As a special effect, maybe ... I can do the same in software on my system. But if you listen closely it comes at the expense of other sound qualities that might be more important to our enjoyment. Still, if it pleases you... why not?
It does alter the FR a bit from what I have measured, but the effect can be pretty impressive at times, and I do like it so why not....that is part of the hobby.
I don't know how anyone can justify charging 8 large for a speaker cable.
Even more, someone paying that.
I have heard a difference in speaker cables, but not THAT big of a difference.
Thanks for the comment and am curious how you did your test..
Hmmm...do I understand correctly, you used a stereo preamp (set to mono) to drive 2 mono amps, each amp had one of the test cables run from it to the switch box, and then a single homemade short cable between the switch box ad the speaker? If so, not really a valid test, as you can't account for any differences between the 2 power amps....not that I think it would have made any difference anyway LOL
You are pretty close to getting it right. One power amp was used- the Bryston 2B-LP. It is a stereo amp, however it is a dual mono design- basically 2 independent amps in one chassis. I have measured the amp and their electrical characteristics are almost the same- definitely for the purpose of the test- you are indeed correct. And having the short homemade cable as part of the test has been pointed out a few times today (a record # of comments for me). But my premise is that if both cables are passing through it, the effect would be nulled out......Thanks for the comment
Some people can hardly make financial ends meet, and there are those who think $8000 for speaker wire is okay. Clearly it seems there's no audible difference, when testing equipment can barely detect micro differences
thanks for the comment. I cannot begrudge someone who has the financial ability to buy $8000 speakers and purchases them. If they tell me that that their sound has improved greatly, I am going to be a bit skeptical.
Wait, at some point the signal is going thru the "cheaper" diy cables, the short ones?
Yes- both the expensive cables and the one I made went through the 2' DIY cable I made as well. But two, 2' 12gauge cables connected in parallel should have very little effect on the result.
Agree with the analysis, but I do hear differences with different interconnect cables. It’s noticeable when comparing a twisted pair configuration with a floating ground(long-time established protocol for recording studios), compared to a pair with the ground connected at both ends.
Thaks for sharing. I think you are talking about using a balanced cable vs an unbalanced interconnect cable. The balanced approach is used to help eliminate noise- important for a recording studio. If there was no noise on the unbalanced cable I doubt you would hear any difference- kinda hard to test, I would think, since the preamp may use a slightly different circuit to drive the xlr cable than the unbalanced cable....
@@vintageaudioreview Nope, this is using Mogami 2549 microphone cable in a single-ended application, for a typical 2-channel system. One wire hot, one wire return, with the shield connected only at the source and “floating” at the other end. This connection methodology also prevents ground loops. In this configuration, the sound is very transparent and open. When the shield is connected at both ends, the sound is darker and closed-in. I get the same results with Canare L-2T2S microphone cable. A 3-ft. pair of these cables with Rean Neutric connectors will run less than $15-$18 and will smoke anything up to $500/pair.
@@ChicagoRob2 Show these are your "rca" interconnect cables then ? Interesting about only grounding the shield at one end working better. It would be interesting to a/b them with a standard rca cable...I will have to check into this a little more as it would be nice to have the exact length of cable to connect gear....
Ground loop problems can be quite complex. It is entirely possible that lifting the ground on an unbalanced interconnect reduces noise or hum IN YOUR SYSTEM as the ground current is flowing in another path. Or it could make the problem worse and usually does with unbalanced systems. What you are testing is not one cable compared to another. You are modifying the electrical current paths in your system. You can't compare a modified balanced interconnect with an unbalanced. Apples and oranges. I think I understand what you are doing. Using shielded pair cable, with the pairs as the hot and ground and only connecting the shield to the ground at one end versus an unbalanced cable. But you have to keep in mind your topology has more resistance and inductance in the ground path than the 2 conductor shielded cable does do the mass of the metal. So yes, there could be an audible difference with hum and low level noise. But that has nothing to do with cable quality.
@@ChicagoRob2
If you have one wire connected as the "return" which on a single ended cable is ground... your fancy "shield at one end" trick *will not* prevent ground loops. In fact it could make things worse as the unterminated length of shield can act as an antenna, picking up all kinds of RF interference.
If I'm buying a speaker cable which is 321 more ekspensive than your 28 $ cable it is 321 times better than yours!!! End of story. My brother is stronger than your brother! LOL
Don't go dropping your pants mate. BTW my dad would kick your dads arse.
Thanks for the humorous comment!
Transparent cable doesn't claim their cables are lower distortion or have a different frequency response than less expensive cable s. Transparent claims their network boxes reduce noise and are calibrated to match the impedance between amplifier and speakers , and between components and their network boxes have damping expoxy to reduce resonance s so these are tests in the video that are not addressing the specific manufacturers claims like resonances , impedance matching and measuring noise spectrum in the range transparent claims is reduced by their cable networks but if more extensive tests are done and cannot confirm the manufacturer s claims then cable nay sayers could be right .
Thanks for taking the time to express your thoughts- that network in the cable is calibrated to match your system how? Do they have a library of the majority of speaker impedances and output impedances, and a massive amount of L, R and C's to use ??
See my root comment above ... Nothing about those cables can or will do any of the things you say they're claiming. It is a physical impossibility.
@Douglas_Blake_579 .....phone preamp s have different impedance matching for moving coil cartridges s but transparent can't do different impedance s in their network boxes with internal circuits that include resistors ?...okay ....someone should file a lawsuit against them if it's a lie
@@mikelanden Phono preamp matching to a cartridge is a totally different beast than matching between an amp/speaker. The signal levels are much, much smaller coming out of a cartridge and the input impedance of your preamp much different than that of a speaker. I am hope @Douglas_Blake_579 can provide more details on the subject- I have to get back to testing....
@@vintageaudioreview ...oh...ok...what about 4 ohm , 6 ohm , 8 taps on amplifier s that are part of the signal path that include being connected to speaker cable s...👌
Too many variables, I know the C1 and it's far from being transparent.
That said, the hiend cables for thousands of dollars are baloney. Get some Neotech wire and call it a day.
Thanks again for the comments. I did a quick check of Neotech wire as I was unfamiliar with it and it appears pricey by my standards, though not as nearly as much as the one I tested. I will stand by the C1- I have compared (a/b'd) it to many name preamps. The only one I did not think it held its own against was because it turns out I had the Carver in Mono accidently. But you are right, there are mainly variables.....
It doesn't matter. He could have used a $50.00 china amp and the test would still be valid because the only thing that changed was the 10 foot speaker wire.
He should sell this cables to the US military ,along with some $35000 hammers
I worked for an aerospace company and there are legitimate reasons some simple things like hammers may cost much more than one you picked up from home depot. But your point is well taken 😄 Thaks for taking the time to comment!
New to your channel. Thanks for performing this type of test. I've been saying to anyone who would listen, a channel that does thus kind if "blind A/B" test would be so welcome to the hobby. I'm not a cable denier, but I've been skeptical of people who make claims about being able to hear the difference between X & Y components, but not un a truly blind test. I look forward to more blind test results. 👍
Thanks for the comment and hope you stick with the channel. I only do a/b tests every now and then- mainly as an excuse to get together with audio buddies. We are planning another for the 1st of the year...
If you can't hear the difference between X & Y components in a system or the difference between X & Y speaker cables, I suggest you save your money & try a different hobby Sir
@@vintageaudioreviewsolder is my pet peeve in cable building honestly
@@stLtBilko Thanks for the comment, but I am not sure what you are driving at. I am a gear guy who has decent hearing. If I can't hear the benefit of an expensive component, then why spend the $$, unless there is some aesthetic value to it for me. I could spend the money on something else that may not have the sound quality of say a streaming device, but boy, it would be nice to own it- in this case I am thing about a Nakamichi Dragon- which is the part of the hobby I enjoy.
@@stLtBilko Please elaborate..
I’m curious if you tried different power cables specifically for noise. I feel like there’s no difference but I’m not 100% sure!
I have not tested any power cables, but Amir at Audio Science Review has tested several over the years and the result is pretty much the same- no effect on audio performance. Some may block some high frequency noise a bit better, but that would not have anything to do with the audio band performance.
If you hear sonic differences between power cables, the problem is in your equipment, not the cables. All AC powered equipment is required to have power line filtering and proper grounding as part of it's design. If cords make a difference the problem is in your device's AC filtering.
Yeah. Let's put a Ferrari engine in my Mitsubishi Mirage and see how it works. Wow! This engine is crap. It performs much better with a 1.2 L 3 cylinder engine. I'm sure glad I didn't waste my money on Ferrai F8. People who spend money on high end cars are dupes.
I am not sure I totally follow you here, but I typically don't fault folks who can afford to by an exotic car or piece of audio gear. Best value on a high end car is typically the Corvette... Thanks for the comment.
@@vintageaudioreview Well to make it simpler, if you attached that $8000 wire to a pair of tin cans I'm sure the result would be worse than if you attached a string and pulled them taut between your ear and your friends.
@@helgar791 Ok, I guess.
Thank you for this beautiful demonstration. Audiophiles are sometimes rich people who know nothing about technology, some take advantage of it.
Well put. Most of my audio friends are not rich, but have gotten really good deals on gear before it became more difficult in recent years. The other week I was helping an "audio friend" out and asked him if he had some wire strippers and he handed me some scissors....
_" Audiophiles are sometimes rich people who know nothing about technology,"_
And the rest tend to be middle-class people who know nothing about technology. Some time ago I helped an audiophile's widow clear out the sound room. This got her nearly $10,000 to put in the bank. They both lived on Canada's senior's pensions for years!
@@Douglas_Blake_579 The majority of audiophiles I know are middle class with their "knowledge" coming from reading/watching reviews and some experimentation of things on their own over the years....Thanks again for all of the commentary 😀
@@vintageaudioreview
Unfortunately a lot of that 'knowledge" (appropriately in quotes) comes from the webpages of these shyster companies who prey upon their gullibility. It is amazing how much so-called science I see that exists only in the audiophile realm... and at odds with well established understandings beyond that.
One of life's harder lessons: "The ones who know the least are the easiest to lie to."
I constantly urge anyone getting into audio gear for any other reason than listening to music or movies to take the time to learn some basic electronics skills. Not saying they need to become techs or engineers, but they should at least know how to read and interpret specs and graphs as well as troubleshooting simple problems. I see the necessity of it every time I lift off the covers on some piece of gear and note the blank stares on their faces.
@@Douglas_Blake_579 Well Put!!
Hello. I have had a LOT of problems with OFC. speaker cables with transparent PVC insulation. especially after I've soldered on them. very many became green and dark in colour. Buying a cheap speaker cable can be punishing. You can get short life out of them.
have also seen this in a newer jamo speaker
now only tinned copper cable and never untinned
As was pointed out in one of these comments, the wire I actually used was Copper clad aluminum, apparently not the best wire, though I have had good luck with it thus far- thanks for the comments
Yep, that's an electrolytic reaction to passing current through a junction of dissimilar metals. It's not limited to aluminium wire... but that is the worst for it.
IF your cables are reacting as you say, it's probably not copper. Most likely it's Copper Clad Aluminium. The simple test is to scrape away a little bit of the surface of the strands and see if they turn silver... if they do it's aluminium wire.
I've repeatedly seen CCA wire actively reject solder, as in, you make a perfectly good splice and then trying to solder it the solder just rolls off and drips onto the floor. You actually need special (expensive) solder and an oxygen eliminating paste to make a proper connection to it.
Terrible stuff....
@@vintageaudioreview By the way, the measurement you are doing is not good enough! I 100% agree that the sound difference between cheap good cables and EXPENSIVE cables is so small that you have problems hearing differences.
But you also have to measure the capacitor value and other things. And you also have to zoom in on the measurement on the oscilloscope. It seems that you have zoomed out quite a bit and then you don't see the difference.
I believe that you must also have a very good sound system before it makes sense to buy expensive cables
@@ford1546
See my other comments on this ... reactance, inductance and other feedline effects are unimportant below 1/4 electrical wavelength of cable, so unless you are running 2 mile cables, you don't need to worry about that.
Plus, from experience, if you have to zoom in on a scope trace to find a difference... it is _extremely_ unlikely you will hear it.
Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts. At least we agree that the expensive cables will not sound different that the "cheap" cables. Douglas_Blake_579 has commented a lot about the capacitive, inductive and resistive elements of audio cables is pretty miniscule. The scope you mentioned is an audio analyzer and the scales I use (for THD) are normal and show what is going on. The frequency response plots can be zoomed in enough to make and show any difference.
I have seen this type of cable test multiple times since the 70's. When set up properly, almost always no difference. A few times the fancy, expensive cables actually sounded worse, usually because of some "magic tech" add on component to the cables. And of course, there are the stories of what Monster Cable use to do at shows, using regular cables behind the scene for the actual hook ups!
Thanks for input- never heard any Monster cable stories, though....
@@vintageaudioreview
Okay ... two quick stories for you.
1) I was called in to service a "Monster" demo unit in a local hifi shop. The "standard cable" side of the switch had stopped working. I noticed it was connected with about 50 feet of coiled up telephone wire (26ga), so I did what any competent tech would do and replaced it with about 6 inches of proper 16ga hookup wire. Their sales of Monster cables tanked...
2) At a Canadian audiofest I attended a demonstration of "AQ" cables and like everyone else I heard the stunning difference between the "standard" RCA cable and the AQ one. After the demo the salesmaker left his stand unattended as he milled though the crowd taking orders. I went behind the stand, spotted an equalizer hooked into the system... put it on top of the stand for all to see... and the place exploded into a near riot when people realized what had been done to them. Needless to say I was actively invited to never return to that show again.
@@Douglas_Blake_579 Without trying to sound big headed, I sold all my rca's a few years back except a pair of pure audio one's I still use to play vintage stuff with, it's all about the nas, ethernet cable & amp for me, I still chuckle when I see ads for this or that's latest incarnations of their interconnect rca cables
I was there for the comparison. Was a fun get together & shootout. Great video, Scott. 👍
Thanks & I will let you know when we are having the next one.
Dare you to open the 8k$ speakers and see nothing inside then see your mouth drop !
We all wondered what the purpose of the "block with the feet on it" was. THey are too expensive to take apart...Thanks for taking the time to comment.
It's full of glue and magic. 100% the speaker cables you made are better !@@vintageaudioreview
@@JasonsLabVideos Thanks, and I know mine are easier to use as well.
Someone spends that much on cables- only thing fairly certain: now looking for even better ones.
Thanks for making me chuckle with your comment!!! The owner now has that cable and its mate now up for sale on Audiogon or some place like that..
@@golds04
Head off to the hardware store, electrical department, and grab a roll of 16ga all copper lamp cord. It'll cost you about $0.30 per foot and last you a lifetime.
More or less what I expected.
Thank you for your comment- not really a surprise to me either, to be honest..
I have additional tools to test cables. As we put it, we test from DC to daylight in the spectrum. We measure dielectric absorption, resistance, impedance, inductance, and capacitance per foot, and dielectric breakdown votage.
In genera, the DC resistance is the most important factor, so the shorter the better. As most speaker cable is not even close to the impedance of the speaker, any speaker cable of any significant length is mostly affected by Inductance per foot as the speakers are much lower impedance than the cable.
In professi0onal audio, this issue is dealt with by using balanced line level signals to the mostly powered speakers. This results in the length of wire between the amplifier in the speaker to the drivers is under 3 deet in most cases. Large crossover components are eliminated and replaced by active crossovers into a bi-amp configuration. For effeciency the bass is handled by class D amplifiers, and the upper frequencies by a lower power class AB amplifier.
In many professional sound systems, instead of sending analog balanced line levels to the powered speakers, the connection is digital from the console using either AES2, Waves, or Dante interfaces. This eliminates all analog noise sources in the sound distribution from the console to the speaker arrays.
Why are guitars still using high impedance pickups in the days of low impedance balanced sound? That ancient artifact needs to go.
If you have a bench power supply that can provide 10 amps or more, you can do low resistance measurements yourself on the cables. Send for example 10 amps regulated into a shorted cable, and then measure the voltage due to resistance. EG a 10 amp current into a 10 foot cable and has a voltage of 20mV would equate to 2 miliohms.
Really? Applying RF feedline standards to a low frequency cable that is only a tiny fraction of the wavelength of the signal?
Lets do the math ...
The speed of light is about 299,792.458 kilometres per second.
Electricty travels through copper at about 96% of the speed of light (VF = 0.96)
This gives us a velocity of ...
299,782.458 x 0.96 == 287,791.159 kilometers per second.
Wavelength = velocity / frequency, so... at 20khz...
287,791.159 / 20,000 == 14.389 Kilometres ... that's 8.941 MILES.
The first resonant point in a feedline is at 1/4 wavelength so...
14.389 / 4 = 3.597 Kilometres or 2.235 MILES.
Now most of us don't run 2 mile speaker wires...
so below that feedline impedance, dielectric, inductive and reactive components will have a negligible.... likely unmeasurable effect on the sound quality of a system.
What matters is resistance ... which as you pointed out is in milliohms (1/1,000 of an ohm) for all but the most drastically under sized wire.
So lets look at good old 16ga lamp wire ...
rated by UL and CSA at 4 ohms per 1,000 feet.
A 10 foot speaker wire made up of 16 ga wire actually has 20 feet of wire in it.
So we have (4 x 20) / 1000 == 0.08 ohms (80 milliohms) of resistance.
Compared to a 4 ohm speaker that gives us an impedance ratio (damping factor) of...
4 / 0.08 == 50. which is totally acceptable.
Really nice comment here! I have very little experience with guitars and the associated equipment. Your idea with a 10amp p/s is good, but a milliohmeter would accomplish the same thing- I don't have one... though I would like too. Thanks for the commentary!
@@Douglas_Blake_579 All the facts about the speed of light is absolutely true. However, the impedance mismatch means that a low impedance load on a higher impedance cable results in the cable being inductive. When a high impedance source is applied to a much lower impedance cable the result is capacative loading, even at fractions of a wavelength.
Your assumption in the velocity factor in wire is incorrect when an insulator on the wire changes the capacitance per foot. This is referred to the velocity factor. You will find most polyvynil plastic dielectric produces a velocity factor closer to 60% and not the claimed 96%.
It is true the effects at lengths under 100 feet is negligible except for the resistance, but this is a bunch of Audiophiles where any measurable difference in cable is worth $14,000 in price for the cable. This is the level of difference they claim they can hear. I emphasize the word claim.
Just an FYI, High voltage transmission lines traveling 500 miles or more often need impedance corrections to keep the voltage stable. Ask your utility about capacitors on rural distribution lines in the country. This is at 60 hz in the USA. Yes is it a fraction of a wavelenght and the lines are air insulated without a solid dielectric. High tension lines can need either inductors for long lighter loaded lines resulting in an impedance mismatch, or capacitors for under loaded lines resulting in impedance mismatch the other direction.
If you can tour a local HV transmission line substation, ask to see the KVA, KV, Megawatt meters and in the same area find the power factor meter and the MegaVarmeters. Ask the operator about power factor correction.
Speaker cables with the two conductors broken down into many smaller insulated strands, which are then braided together, is to add capacitance to the cable to lower the impedance to be closer to the impedance of the speaker.
Google Power Factor correction in transmission lines for further reading. Yes it is flow lower frequencies and longer distances. But then we are talking about Audiophiles again.
@@vintageaudioreview A mili-ohm meter is nothing more than a current source, and a volt meter in a nice package. Look up "4 lead resistance measurement" Meter leads, contact resistance, and other measurement errors make measuring milt-ohms impossible with a traditional 2 lead setup. Replicating the function of a 4 lead milt-ohm meter is not difficult. The point is the leads measuring the voltage can not be the same leads used to supply the measurement current as any lead contact resistance will make the reading invalid.
Disclaimer, yes I do measure wire, relay, and contact resistances as part of my day job. No we do not use a mili-ohm meter to take the measurements. We use a DMM with mili-volt scale and a regulated current power supply. We measure mili-ohms down to micro-ohms.
You must also be retired, Doug :)