Result of this vintage vs ChiFi test means quality of speakers, room and maybe even cables are also important, not only amps. Nice, entertaining test! Thanks
Thanks for the comment. Speakers are pretty good. Speaker cables are 12guage and both the same for each amp as are the RCA cables going to each from the preamp. Room is not the best acoustically, but how many are? Strictly a quick test to see if there was an obvious difference between the two, and there really was not for the most part.
@@vintageaudioreview Thanks for the reply! No doubt all components are good. What i meant - with cheaper speakers and bad, thin cables the result would be more obvious : i hope vintage amp would show its pedigree and much better score even with those mass production components. Thanks again
@@leodvosis No problem and now I get what you were saying. 16gauge copper "zip cord" speaker will will do fine for most folks needs and either of the amps, but I go with the thicker wire to eliminate any doubt (at least for most reasonable folks). Find speakers that YOU like the sound of and can afford and you will be happy with most any decent amp as long as it can drive them...
This was a cool video and more interesting than the usual reviews. I’m located in Tucson and have bought stuff from Ian. I like the fact that you are local.
Thanks for the comment and I try to do different things topics now and then. If you ever want to participate in one of these get togethers contact Ian and let him know- we may have one in October sometime.
@@ragnarhairybreeks You are indeed correct. I don't have the test box that allows for that- they are around $1200. I think my method works pretty well so you can see if one of your choices is consistent with others taking the test, at least for the sample size.....
This is why many people listen with their eye balls, and maranta nailed it with their cosmetics... Had many Marantz receivers and they are ok at best...
One of the replies was asking for just vintage comparisons. I have the Bogan db230 and 230A which are actually quite different (not in sound but the circuits are different with different driver tubes) I would like to hear vs. the Marantz, Scott, Fisher, Dynaco or Heathkits etc. Thanks for the video.
Thanks so much for watching and the suggestion. I did mention in one of my earlier responses that for my next a/b get together test, it will be between vintage receivers. Ian (seen at the end of the video), has several vintage receivers to choose from. He will provide me 3 and will not know which two I use until after the test, and no-one else will know what the potential choices are. I will have tested all of them and done a video on the choices. I am guessing there will be a Sansui among them. This event will be in mid October if all goes well, with the video up in November.
Another great piece of work! I think I’ve found that for long listening, I would go with the Marantz even if the other sounded “cleaner” in the short run. Seems to me some speaker manufacturers elevate the highs a bit so they sound “cleaner” at the dealer (if people can still find one) in the short run, but can get fatiguing over long listening?
Thanks for the comments Chris! The T9 did have a bit of a treble bump that I pointed out in the data, but could have been adjusted slightly with the treble control I suppose though I tried to make sure it was as flat as I could get it w/out the midrange suffering more. There are some speaker reviews that I have watched that seem to indicate that manufacturers may adjust the sound from flat to a boost here and there based on market research..... I think I get more fatigued by certain music that is being played more than by the gear....when I am at a friend's place.
Many thanks for the comment. Good eye on the 250's- they used to be in Richard's bedroom, but his girlfriend must have said only 2 pairs of speakers are allowed in there. If they are not attached to anything I am sure he will let me use them for as long as I need to- so look for them in an upcoming video thanks for the request!
I have the A08 pro as well, and both of them sound great when paired with efficient speakers- always put your money into the speakers 1st. Aiyima maybe me sending another amp to test before too long.
@@vintageaudioreview btw, I'm driving it with a pair of notoriously hard to drive Dynaudio Crafft speakers with 86dB but still gives out respectable sound!
@@vintageaudioreview Crafft is a consumer version of Dynaudioacoustics C2 studio speakers, using a pair first generation Esotar which the sound is truly remarkable even in today's standard! That said, you should also give a try on a truly amazing little amp by PJ Miaolai A7 which was said by Doctor John that it took the throne away from Aiyima T9. Lower powere but more involving sound~ I'm using their A4 (same as Douk U4 which was raved by Jeff Day of Positive Feedback ) which got everything A7 has except the amp section, amazing little unit with a take no prsioner attitude!!
. Lol, outstanding video with your buddies. Are you guys sure you wrote down the right results? 'Cause it looked like a good time and not so much a test. Lol, good stuff. Acid Jazz, Funk & Brass 🔈🔉🔊
Thanks for the comments as always. Even though there was beer, only a few of us had any and I had maybe two or 3 over a 4hr period. Everyone took the test seriously, and a few even did it twice. And they almost always comment that they learn something and enjoy doing them. They are also told not to discuss the test with those that had not yet taken it.
Thanks for the comment. Am not sure what complimenting the speakers would have required as both amps were able to drive them pretty easily for the levels we needed. Some folks believe that horn speakers can sound less harsh with tube amps, but I have not found that with my listening tests.
I have not seen a schematic or block diagram, but based on the fact that the T9's Aux out shows the even harmonics higher than the odd, I would guess the tubes are a buffer in the preamp stage. Tubes do provide amplification!
The tubes will typically be in a Cathode Follower configuration (do a search). They won't provide gain, but the "tube effect" will be somewhat present.
@@Douglas_Blake_579 I was thinking @craigenputtock was making a general statement about tubes not being able to amplify signals, but re-reading the comment it may have been just for the T9...
@@vintageaudioreview Tubes certainly can produce gain ... gobs of it! But at the low voltages provided by boost converters in these pre-amps the tubes are just barely on, so their gain is substantially limited. Thus cathode followers ... the equivalent of an emitter follower in a transistor circuit. The tube is passing the waveform, but will not produce voltage gain.
Good catch and thanks for paying attention to the data! I noticed that too and I believe that was when I was approaching the max output power of the T9 the SNR dropped as the noise floor went up quite a bit. Not sure if it was in the preamp stage which I assume uses the tubes or the chip amp itself. I could have looked at the preamp output I suppose (I don't remember if I did that in the T9 episode). But at max power playing most music I listen too in a decent set of speakers, you will most likely not hear the increased noise I am guessing.
@@vintageaudioreview Something to bear in mind here is that the old clipping target of 1% distortion used with vintage gear is going to be well beyond the clipping level of this newer class D stuff. The reason being that older gear, either through aging or limitations of the design, starts out with significantly more distortion. As you know I've added clipping and protection indicators to a few TPA3255 based amplifiers and the chip's clipping light typically comes on at about 0.1% distortion which, unlike AB amps, is actually visible on an oscilloscope.
@@Douglas_Blake_579 Great comments as always. It seems that the 1% distortion at max power is a newer spec by the CEA (?) standards where there was no such rating with the older IHF specs. Interesting that you can see the clipping at .15 THD. When I get done trying to measure DC on AC I may hook up the scope to the A07 and look at clipping 😃
@@vintageaudioreview Keep in mind that these Class D amps are running in BTL (Bridged) mode so both speaker poles are active. This however gives us a chance to see the behaviour at clipping very clearly ... Measure only one pole of the output against ground. As the output approaches waveform clipping you'll see some "fuzzy" trace effects at the peaks of the waveform. That is Class D clipping... it's inserting very narrow pulses to prevent the PWM carrier from reaching pulse-widths of zero. But don't worry ... the fuzzies are in phase for both poles of the bridge so they produce no output. If you then read the signal differentially you will see waveform clipping but not the "fuzzies". You will also notice there's a fair bit of difference in the two levels. PWM safety pulses begin at about 99% of waveform clipping levels, which is just below that conventional "knee" point where you see distortion rise dramatically... and considerably less than 1% distortion. What you can deduce from that is that Class D clipping is far more managed than Class AB clipping. Allowing it to clip conventionally could result in shut-downs in the PWM carrier which, in turn, could make some very strange, very loud noises until it recovers.
@@vintageaudioreviewit would have interesting to know as a viewer which way the participants were leaning. Got it at the end but lost interest during the tester remarks section.
@@brunoespinosa5907 Thanks for you suggestion. I like putting the participants in the video- I think they get a kick out of it and it just shows I am not pulling this out of the air. I doubt we would ever get more than 15folks, and one guy does not want to be on UA-cam (he was not at this event). At 19:38 in the video I did read the questionnaire summary results.
@@vintageaudioreview I do appreciate the reviewers candid impression and think it's a part of a very important step of verification of the authenticity of the results, please keep this part in upcoming posts! Those who may not be interested may simply skip this part~
@@ericlo6370 As I mentioned to someone- maybe it was you (there have been a lot of comments on this video, which is good, but does take some time for me to respond) the participants, most but not all I have met before, like to have me ask for their comments for the video, though not all of them have seen it yet.
@@vintageaudioreview That should be interesting. The one I'd really like to see is the Aiyima A07 (original) vs a solid state Class AB amp. You know, the classic ... $100 vs $1,000 battle.
Great test! Seeing isn’t believing….hearing is!
Thanks for the comment and hearing is of course, but so are measurements 😄
Result of this vintage vs ChiFi test means quality of speakers, room and maybe even cables are also important, not only amps. Nice, entertaining test! Thanks
Thanks for the comment. Speakers are pretty good. Speaker cables are 12guage and both the same for each amp as are the RCA cables going to each from the preamp. Room is not the best acoustically, but how many are? Strictly a quick test to see if there was an obvious difference between the two, and there really was not for the most part.
@@vintageaudioreview Thanks for the reply! No doubt all components are good. What i meant - with cheaper speakers and bad, thin cables the result would be more obvious : i hope vintage amp would show its pedigree and much better score even with those mass production components. Thanks again
@@leodvosis No problem and now I get what you were saying. 16gauge copper "zip cord" speaker will will do fine for most folks needs and either of the amps, but I go with the thicker wire to eliminate any doubt (at least for most reasonable folks). Find speakers that YOU like the sound of and can afford and you will be happy with most any decent amp as long as it can drive them...
This was a cool video and more interesting than the usual reviews. I’m located in Tucson and have bought stuff from Ian. I like the fact that you are local.
Thanks for the comment and I try to do different things topics now and then. If you ever want to participate in one of these get togethers contact Ian and let him know- we may have one in October sometime.
Love the test, great work!... This would stir the post on certain forum! :)
Thanks for the comment and these tests are always fun and a bit insightful...
Well that was interesting! Nice one, thanks
Thanks for taking the time to let me know!
I’m not knowledgeable about such things, but I’ll guess you considered an a,b,x comparison set up? Where x is either a or b
@@ragnarhairybreeks You are indeed correct. I don't have the test box that allows for that- they are around $1200. I think my method works pretty well so you can see if one of your choices is consistent with others taking the test, at least for the sample size.....
This is why many people listen with their eye balls, and maranta nailed it with their cosmetics... Had many Marantz receivers and they are ok at best...
I do like the vintage Marantz receivers and they do look great and sound fine and why not spend your hard earned $$'s on something you want 😆
One of the replies was asking for just vintage comparisons. I have the Bogan db230 and 230A which are actually quite different (not in sound but the circuits are different with different driver tubes) I would like to hear vs. the Marantz, Scott, Fisher, Dynaco or Heathkits etc. Thanks for the video.
Thanks so much for watching and the suggestion. I did mention in one of my earlier responses that for my next a/b get together test, it will be between vintage receivers. Ian (seen at the end of the video), has several vintage receivers to choose from. He will provide me 3 and will not know which two I use until after the test, and no-one else will know what the potential choices are. I will have tested all of them and done a video on the choices. I am guessing there will be a Sansui among them. This event will be in mid October if all goes well, with the video up in November.
Another great piece of work! I think I’ve found that for long listening, I would go with the Marantz even if the other sounded “cleaner” in the short run. Seems to me some speaker manufacturers elevate the highs a bit so they sound “cleaner” at the dealer (if people can still find one) in the short run, but can get fatiguing over long listening?
Thanks for the comments Chris! The T9 did have a bit of a treble bump that I pointed out in the data, but could have been adjusted slightly with the treble control I suppose though I tried to make sure it was as flat as I could get it w/out the midrange suffering more. There are some speaker reviews that I have watched that seem to indicate that manufacturers may adjust the sound from flat to a boost here and there based on market research..... I think I get more fatigued by certain music that is being played more than by the gear....when I am at a friend's place.
Thank you for the entertaining video. Any chance of doing a review of those JBL 250's in a future video?
Many thanks for the comment. Good eye on the 250's- they used to be in Richard's bedroom, but his girlfriend must have said only 2 pairs of speakers are allowed in there. If they are not attached to anything I am sure he will let me use them for as long as I need to- so look for them in an upcoming video thanks for the request!
Great post! I keep telling people that Aiyima T9 and my A08pro is a proper hifi equipment which one should take it seriously!
I have the A08 pro as well, and both of them sound great when paired with efficient speakers- always put your money into the speakers 1st. Aiyima maybe me sending another amp to test before too long.
@@vintageaudioreview Interestingly, I bought an A07max but the difference is not small and A07max is now sitting beside my A08pro gathering dust....
@@vintageaudioreview btw, I'm driving it with a pair of notoriously hard to drive Dynaudio Crafft speakers with 86dB but still gives out respectable sound!
@@ericlo6370 Am not familiar with your speakers, but 86dB is a bit on the lower side. As long as you are liking the sound, you should be 😁
@@vintageaudioreview
Crafft is a consumer version of Dynaudioacoustics C2 studio speakers, using a pair first generation Esotar which the sound is truly remarkable even in today's standard!
That said, you should also give a try on a truly amazing little amp by PJ Miaolai A7 which was said by Doctor John that it took the throne away from Aiyima T9. Lower powere but more involving sound~
I'm using their A4 (same as Douk U4 which was raved by Jeff Day of Positive Feedback ) which got everything A7 has except the amp section, amazing little unit with a take no prsioner attitude!!
. Lol, outstanding video with your buddies. Are you guys sure you wrote down the right results? 'Cause it looked like a good time and not so much a test. Lol, good stuff.
Acid Jazz, Funk & Brass 🔈🔉🔊
Thanks for the comments as always. Even though there was beer, only a few of us had any and I had maybe two or 3 over a 4hr period. Everyone took the test seriously, and a few even did it twice. And they almost always comment that they learn something and enjoy doing them. They are also told not to discuss the test with those that had not yet taken it.
Never know these days. Makes me think the speakers weren't complimenting the Marantz's strengths.
Thanks for the comment. Am not sure what complimenting the speakers would have required as both amps were able to drive them pretty easily for the levels we needed. Some folks believe that horn speakers can sound less harsh with tube amps, but I have not found that with my listening tests.
So is the Ayima amp really a class d sending a signal through a tube buffer since the tubes don't provide amplification?
I have not seen a schematic or block diagram, but based on the fact that the T9's Aux out shows the even harmonics higher than the odd, I would guess the tubes are a buffer in the preamp stage. Tubes do provide amplification!
The tubes will typically be in a Cathode Follower configuration (do a search). They won't provide gain, but the "tube effect" will be somewhat present.
@@Douglas_Blake_579 I was thinking @craigenputtock was making a general statement about tubes not being able to amplify signals, but re-reading the comment it may have been just for the T9...
@@vintageaudioreview
Tubes certainly can produce gain ... gobs of it!
But at the low voltages provided by boost converters in these pre-amps the tubes are just barely on, so their gain is substantially limited. Thus cathode followers ... the equivalent of an emitter follower in a transistor circuit. The tube is passing the waveform, but will not produce voltage gain.
@@Douglas_Blake_579 Too bad there is no schematic for it- that I have found.
What would be the reason for 90 vs 45 db SNR difference in these amps ?
Good catch and thanks for paying attention to the data! I noticed that too and I believe that was when I was approaching the max output power of the T9 the SNR dropped as the noise floor went up quite a bit. Not sure if it was in the preamp stage which I assume uses the tubes or the chip amp itself. I could have looked at the preamp output I suppose (I don't remember if I did that in the T9 episode). But at max power playing most music I listen too in a decent set of speakers, you will most likely not hear the increased noise I am guessing.
@@vintageaudioreview
Something to bear in mind here is that the old clipping target of 1% distortion used with vintage gear is going to be well beyond the clipping level of this newer class D stuff. The reason being that older gear, either through aging or limitations of the design, starts out with significantly more distortion.
As you know I've added clipping and protection indicators to a few TPA3255 based amplifiers and the chip's clipping light typically comes on at about 0.1% distortion which, unlike AB amps, is actually visible on an oscilloscope.
@@Douglas_Blake_579 Great comments as always. It seems that the 1% distortion at max power is a newer spec by the CEA (?) standards where there was no such rating with the older IHF specs. Interesting that you can see the clipping at .15 THD. When I get done trying to measure DC on AC I may hook up the scope to the A07 and look at clipping 😃
@@vintageaudioreview
Keep in mind that these Class D amps are running in BTL (Bridged) mode so both speaker poles are active. This however gives us a chance to see the behaviour at clipping very clearly ...
Measure only one pole of the output against ground. As the output approaches waveform clipping you'll see some "fuzzy" trace effects at the peaks of the waveform. That is Class D clipping... it's inserting very narrow pulses to prevent the PWM carrier from reaching pulse-widths of zero.
But don't worry ... the fuzzies are in phase for both poles of the bridge so they produce no output.
If you then read the signal differentially you will see waveform clipping but not the "fuzzies".
You will also notice there's a fair bit of difference in the two levels. PWM safety pulses begin at about 99% of waveform clipping levels, which is just below that conventional "knee" point where you see distortion rise dramatically... and considerably less than 1% distortion.
What you can deduce from that is that Class D clipping is far more managed than Class AB clipping. Allowing it to clip conventionally could result in shut-downs in the PWM carrier which, in turn, could make some very strange, very loud noises until it recovers.
@@Douglas_Blake_579 I will give this a try at some point- I appreciate the info!
So who was B and who was C. Comments lacked without association. The subject didnt need to know but us viewers would like to know.
Thanks for the comment/question. I stated in the video, towards the end, that B was the T9 and the Marantz was C.
@@vintageaudioreviewit would have interesting to know as a viewer which way the participants were leaning. Got it at the end but lost interest during the tester remarks section.
@@brunoespinosa5907 Thanks for you suggestion. I like putting the participants in the video- I think they get a kick out of it and it just shows I am not pulling this out of the air. I doubt we would ever get more than 15folks, and one guy does not want to be on UA-cam (he was not at this event). At 19:38 in the video I did read the questionnaire summary results.
@@vintageaudioreview I do appreciate the reviewers candid impression and think it's a part of a very important step of verification of the authenticity of the results, please keep this part in upcoming posts! Those who may not be interested may simply skip this part~
@@ericlo6370 As I mentioned to someone- maybe it was you (there have been a lot of comments on this video, which is good, but does take some time for me to respond) the participants, most but not all I have met before, like to have me ask for their comments for the video, though not all of them have seen it yet.
No surprises. About what I expected, really.
AS always, thanks for watching and the comments. I think for the next test we are going to a/b some vintage receivers........
@@vintageaudioreview
That should be interesting.
The one I'd really like to see is the Aiyima A07 (original) vs a solid state Class AB amp.
You know, the classic ... $100 vs $1,000 battle.
@@Douglas_Blake_579 As I have the original A07 (I think), it could be done at some point....
@@vintageaudioreview
Cool. The original A07 is still the king of the Chi-Fi amps.
@@Douglas_Blake_579 Hi Douglas, I stand by my A08pro over 07, more musically tuned I think, but both are good products ~