Story’s reveal things that are true, when we are proving a point we are trying to hard. Whether the thing is true or not, the bs meter goes off lol. Because if it’s true you don’t have to prove it. It’s self evident. It just needs to be seen. If people really understood you, completely, as you really are, would you feel the need to hide? Story’s are meant to reveal our true selves, not to enhance our fake approval seeking ego.
@@grahamthomas9319 True. An example that comes to mind is living for today instead of lamenting yesterday, in Up. It was symbolized beautifully in Mr Fredrickson choosing to let his house go.
"Don't make a great female character, make a great character that happens to be female" -some wise person Edit: Yes, some characters are naturally female and have to be. The point is to not force a character to be female just to satisfy some inclusion policy. Also, characters that "prove females are worthy" or something like that actually proves nothing because they are fictional characters in fictional stories. I'm not saying women aren't worthy, I'm just highlighting the fact that you can't prove something by making a fiction movie about it. In essence: make a good character without enforcing features that are unfitting for that particular character or that would make no sense.
@@nicholas_obert a lot of it is due to sexism that still exists to this day, for many many decades women were seen as nothing more then trophies and objects for households. In the broad scheme of things, that's only been different for a little over 30-40 years. That's nowhere near enough time to undo the shackles of sexism, considering racism is still extremely prevalent and the civil rights act was over 50 years ago. This doesn't excuse this bad character writing, just a reason for why some people think they have to do it like this. Men don't have the problem of "being strong and masculine" because that's how its seen, but you need to see how people react to when a man is not very masculine but still a strong character, or if a man is based around sex appeal. Women get away with "being sexy and beautiful" driven a lot more due to culture. THere's a lot of sexism that goes both ways that a lot of people don't realize is there.
@@ItsAMaelstrom If the character writing is in your words "inexcusable" we should *all* reject that as the status quo. We should not sit here and say "well, but some people need this sorta hero/story", racism and sexism have, in one form or another (even occurs in matriarchal societies) existed since things that were "not all the same" have existed. That does not mean that every single story should start off with "Once upon a time there was a minority that was historically oppressed, we shall soon learn how that with a little pluck and free super powers they can make it ok for them to be themselves". I am gonna make a call back to an old 90s show called "Buffy the Vampire Hunter"; the main character *mcguffin* and thus is fated to be a vampire slayer... and she was *awful* at it in the beginning. All of the main characters were awful at the new roles they were adjusting to because; adjusting to life *sucks* and that is all something people can identify with. Was Buffy the ideal female character in the ideal setting to tell the ideal story? No. Was she someone who despite *mcguffin* and was now supernaturally strong and such someone who still worked her butt off learning about herself, her role, her powers, how to adjust to how those powers effect those in her life and a hundred other small things to become the person that saves the day? Yep, and despite the occasionally cringy episode men and women both liked the show, both were cheering on a mostly female main cast, sure they were learning a lot of stuff from some old British guy who had "all the answers" except he didn't... He had no idea to relate to the cast in the beginning and expected everyone to do what he said due to his job title, which did not go over too well. There are tons of heroines/main characters who suffer and fight to be the winner or to simply be "good enough" and we are always interested in those stories, as it gives us the slight belief that if we work hard enough we can effect the world. The stories where someone just gets something amazing with no work/pain are awful no matter who the character is, it's why most people like Batman more than Superman. Both were handed privileges' by birth, both had a moment of realization that forever changed their lives, but all the one had to do is take off his glasses to be the hero. The other worked, studied, used his wealth in chaotic good pursuits in order be a, if not "hero" to become an anti-hero for the people to rally behind, yet still condemn enough for Bruce's (spoiler) life to still be really difficult.
Not so much lack of skill (even if it is clearly there) as thinking that pushing an agenda is an acceptable proxy for actually writing a story/character.
Yea, but the biggest problem here people do not bring up the bad writing or make legit reasons as to why the movie is horrible they only bring up the part where the lead is a female and then go off on how "feminism is ruining movies". How many times has Hollywood made Mary Sue male characters? I can name plenty and audiences never complained at the same volume. It's pathetic.
@@imposter-hero-2736 For sure there are big problems on both sides. People jumping on the occasion to voice their hate, and not being able to argue the issue rationally like this video does so well
@@imposter-hero-2736 yeah, people don't get a chance to bring up bad writing or legitimate criticism because even before any of that can be discussed, your side has already fired up the buzzword minigun; sometimes in anticipation of stuff that hasn't even been said
@@imposter-hero-2736 There shouldn't be "sides" here based on feminism or anti. The sides should be divided by, "Is this a well written, acted, directed movie/show". As shown in the video and there are countless other examples Hollywood (mostly Disney) trying to do a good thing has utterly ruined their movies through poor execution.
- Katniss Everdeen (Hunger Gms.) - Helga Sinclair (Atlantis) - Neytiri (Avatar) - Ellen Ripley (Alien) - Princess Leia (SW) - Sarah Connor (Termina.) - Clarice Starling (Sile. of the Lambs) - Dana Scully (X-Files) Do I need to say more??? 100% what matters is the story.
Wow you're so efficient! Saved 2 letters of grueling work in Games (Gms.) Saved the terrible trial of 6 letters in Star Wars Relinquished yourself from the tortuous experience of typing 3 letters in Terminator And finally, saved the countless hours needed to type 3 letters to finish the word Silence (this one is even weirder than the others cus it's just such a random spot) Also, I realized as I typed this, because of autocorrect and typing the periods themselves, it was probably harder to do your shorter names than the actual ones.
@@adielebelieve1698 I've seen people type a complete paragraph in title case. I wonder what goes through these people's minds to do something that require _more_ effort to do something, ultimately less comprehensible than if they had just typed it out normally.
what u mean? its not like they do much females. I mean look at star wars female leads what 10 percent and people still complain. like a lot of people call ahsoka a mary sue even though she isnt and is one of the best female characters ever
@@ladyriethegoldendelmo5441 I think you have Ashoka confused with Rey little buddy. I haven't seen anyone call Ashoka, one of the most developed Star Wars characters of all time (thx Clone Wars + Rebels,) a Mary Sue. So I'd like to see where you got that from. Aside from your ass I mean. Besides, she didn't bring up Star Wars. You did And she isn't saying "stop using female characters." She's saying using the typical Hollywood "strong female character" archetype is harmful, and that she wants it to stop. Learn to interpret sentences in their full context. It'll get you further in life
@@minejack7773 uh mate? I am not confuse. and no I dont call ahsoka a maryu sue. type ahsoka mary sue and u see that one female (youtuber) who makes a whole channel about ahsoka being a mary sue (I'mYourAlibi)
When I watch these horrible movies about women, I always wonder what women think of this crap. Now I know. There are scenes in movies and tv where the women acts so stupid and idiotic, I cheer for the killer to get her.
I like how no one hated Gamora... Despite she being the 2nd strongest Physically and strongest In Overall Combat.... Because she was written perfectly in the guardians of the galaxy franchise..
Her and Nebula have a very interesting dynamic. Nebula is probably a stronger character than Gamora because not only did she have to overcome Thanos' indoctrination since she was a child, she had to overcome her hatred of her sister borne from Thanos' abuse. She projects all the pain she was put through onto Gamora instead of dealing with the reality that Thanos was responsible for it, something that Gamora came to realize much sooner.
Facts bro. Gamora was a great character, selfless, a badass, and (while I was a bit heartbroken), still a great character throughout with her memory loss and everything.
@@roxtechsbro, tue only person in the group that wouldn't need help in the shower scene was Groot, all the other guardians would die alone in the shower
Drax was physically strongest...but he was more of a slow grappler and brawler,only needed when they need raw force...but gamora not only had strength and speed but also more fighting skills and fineness...
Theres a quote by a woman on tumblr i believe where she says something along the lines of "if i have to act meek and inferior for you to feel like a strong man, then you arent a strong man." I think that also applies to strong female characters in shows; "if your female character has to have incompetent men around her to highlight her competence, she isnt a competent character."
actually "if i have to act meek and inferior for you to feel like a strong woman, then you arent a strong woman." but it's more than meek or inferior, since the men are patriarcal, sexists, homophobes, transphobes, micro-agressing, racist, idiots, fatphobic, magahatter, patriotic, nationalistic and etc.
Exactly, the female would just be less incompetent than the male characters, that does not make her superior and more often just straight up overpowered.
Haley Steinfeld is a common denominator in most of the good examples. She's Kate Bishop in Hawkeye, the voice of Vi in Arcane, and the voice of Gwen in Across the Spiderverse. She's amazing
Maddie in True Grit didn't take no shit either. People tend to gloss over that movie even though she did really well as a 13 year old sharing the screen with Jeff Bridges, Matt Damon, and Josh Brolin. Along with a lot of other talent.
It's not just Vi, all of the women in Arcane are so well written and have such varied personalities and looks but without being forced, they are all so well thought out and important to the story they want to tell. And last but not least, they don't make the male characters stupid or useless so that they shine more, on the contrary they are on par and have interesting interactions between them.
@@calebmerkellyt jayce is fine. i mean he's one of the weaker characters but shows his change in values and character. but yeah he's kinda just moving along with the story reacting the for most part.
They all have their goals, and their pros and cons of their personalities in reaching those goals. These bounce and blend well with each other and thus interesting interactions.
good ol' hollywood thinking that a strong woman needs to be more like a man, instead of making a real character EDIT: This comment was written at like 2 am in a few seconds, and I have notifs muted so I didn't see all the replies. To clear up confusion, I do mean man as specifically the self absorbed toxic masculine stereotype that is still common in media. A blending of traditional femininity and masculinity is needed for a truly good male or female character, and no gender is bound to a single set of values or way of life.
Amen, man. Likewise when the Emporor dresses her down, then starts the honor bow at the end of the film and we see her character arc complete. I LOVED the animated Mulan. The live-action was a disgrace.
as a kid i always loved mulan and thought of her as my fav princess, because she overcame the fact she was undervalued because she was a lady, and she proved people wrong just by showing she could do what nobody else could. and eventually she opens up other characters to the fact that women aren't inherently weak, nor is physicality the most important thing to be considered "powerful". her struggles were incredibly relatable esp as a young athlete and her arc was good and realistic. i havent seen the live action version and do not plan to, but my love for OG mulan remains strong
I thought that scene was badass showing that you can’t over come everything with brute strength but Disney wants woman to be everything and have no flaws
And Mulan is great example of "Finesse over strength", she use delicate strategies and wisdom instead of brute force, which these new "strong women" keep using.
Mulan was fun to me as a kid, but after serving in the military, in became one of my all time favorite animated Disney movies since I can relate to Mulan on a deeper level (I'm male, by the way). The MCU's Captain Marvel isn't relatable to me because she reminds me of male bullies that made my life a hell in school and the military.
Yeah for the first couple of episodes she feels like another strong character set out for revenge but then comes the episode "The Tale of The Ronin and The Bride" which changes the perspective completely.
It's really sad when the directors and writers resort to "people hate strong female characters" whenever their films end up failing. That defense itself is just weak.
This serves the purpose of victimizing women greatly though. As the plot does. Almost if those movies were filmed for that purpose rather than for the purpose of being good successful movies.
@@Squeekysquid I hear that she's getting a solo story to try and redeem her character. The sad thing is, if they had done everything right with the sequel trilogy they wouldn't have to try and redeem her character.
@@Squeekysquid I get the feeling of the winging it all right. Lucas had a general idea of where he was going with the original and the prequel trilogies. But for the sequel trilogy? With every entry it felt like they were leading up to something else. Why bring up that Fin is force sensitive if they don't do much with that idea? What was the point of showing the kid using the Force if it is never referenced again? The entire trilogy doesn't need to be completely written out word for word. But they should have at least known what they were going to do next and follow through.
I think the irony of the "sexism" card is that they are ultimately defending writers not respecting women enough to put real effort into their characters and arcs
theres also that poorly written male characters dont seem to get as much flack as poorly written female characters. if audiences cared about writing that much 80% of marvel movies would be tanking
@@mzamnesia7190 I would argue that even the worst films in the first few marvel phases still had interesting main characters and usually fell victim to weak pacing and unmemorable villains. Take the recent barbie movie for example. It was very well recieved and did good numbers at the box office despite preaching to an extent none of these movies people rag on have ever reached. It did this by being a good movie, with a script and characters that the writers actually gave a damn about.
Mulan was my favorite Disney princess as a kid because no prince had to save her instead she saved her country, while at the same time falling in love with a man that was still stronger than her. She had to learn to fight but she was smarter than everyone. She used her gender as a way to trick her enemy's because no one suspected a women to fight, and she won! The live action remake removed all the things that made Mulan unique and amazing.
I didn't know anything about the live action remake of Mulan, I just knew it existed, until watching this video. I thought they would just copy and paste the animated one but I didn't think they'd fuck up something so simple. Story was way better before.
5:09 the only line in She-Hulk I actually laughed at because it's so absurd that it almost seems like satire, except we all know that they took it completely seriously
Man, Edge of Tomorrow is such an enjoyable movie. Emily Blunt's character's OP status is logically explained AND used to further the plot all while showing her as a really skilful, knowledgable badass who's still vulnerable underneath the battle-hardened exterior. Cannot believe professional writers don’t learn from examples like that
I am not sure it could be put as an example of a good hollywood story/characterization though, since it is from a Japanese manga. It actually shows even more how there are so few examples of good female character design that you kind of need to borrow them or from the past or from other nations
@@leonardobertuzzi3042 Edge of Tomorrow though is only really loosely based off All You Need Is Kill. The majority of the story is actually largely original to the movie.
As a child girl, one of the female character I liked the most was Elizabeth Swann from Pirates of the Caribbean. She went from an innocent girl afraid of pirates to one of the most badass pirates of the franchise. Shame to the writers for her character arc in Dead Men Tell no Tales. It felts like going backward.
She was actually never afraid of pirates, she was fascinated by them, even in the very first scene of the first Pirates movie. I get what youre saying and totally agree, i had a huge crush on her not just because shes pretty but also smart and capable. I found her role in the subsequent Pirates movie franchise to be a bit contrived though, as she had never had swordsmanship lessons but turned into a swordsman on Par with Will, arguably the best swordsman in the franchise. I thought that was a bit weak, but i didnt let it ruin the movie, just a plot hole.
The only thing I didn't like about her was how she seemingly became a skilled swordsman/fighter out of nowhere, even though she was a fairly sheltered noble woman before that. she could have practiced off screen. But there's the key, that was "off screen". Would have liked to actually see her grow in that department rather than "I can suddenly fight on equal terms with veteran pirates now, or even outright beat them."
As a women myself, I completely agree with this video. Recently, Disney has been making stories in the idea that all strength, power and abilities come naturally and don’t require hard work or great sacrifice- which is just total nonsense. They must think that a character is automatically likeable just because they are a strong women against the world. No, if you want me to like any character, man or woman, I need to see their struggles and hardships, and how they learn and grow off other people. -Not just having a moment of self-belief and then defeating the villain single-handedly.
Arcane really did create the blueprint for building strong characters. Both good and bad. Vi is a great example of a character that grew from tragedy during her childhood into a hero. All the steps along the path were beautifully laid out and executed. If you have avoided this show because it’s a “cartoon”, stop! Arcane has very deep characters built through tragedy and struggle. It’s not perfect in every way. But it is brimming with quality that is so hard to find in 90% of all other shows out today.
That Jedi girl had Hella struggles, we only had to watch the movie once she lived it... But the Live Die Repeat girl di have to deal with Tom Cruise but at least she got a space suite when he running everywhere jumping on couches.
@@johnfletcher6814 Arcane was actually one of the best series I've ever seen hands down. I also recommend to anyone that loves a GREAT story to go watch it right now, fan or no fan
The fact that you had to say "As a woman" is appalling. The fact that you're a woman has nothing to do with being able to agree with something that concerns your gender. Lmao so disgustingly modern. I should say, this is not hate, I don't care, just making an observation.
@@rhexsusx4428 Ehm, it was actually quite refreshing to read a sane womans thoughts on the matter given the subject in this “woke hysteria” are “bad female writing” But of course you had to fire off the “this is not hate. I’m simply making an observation.” You, my friend is the target audience for she-hulk and all these “modern woke bullshit” and original poster should pay this comment no mind hahaha
Fantastic video. What you said about the problem of self-actualization and having the message of the film be that you are enough and all you need to succeed can be found within yourself is exactly why the people who make these films, and those who enjoy them, don't understand why other people don't like them and therefore claim that we must just be misogynistic. Because the thing is... that message is the worldview those people have. They genuinely believe that that message is true and good. So when people criticize these films, they see nothing wrong with them and just assume the only reason people would dislike them is because of the female lead. They can't understand that they are writing films that operate on a worldview that is not only stupid and self-centered, but also completely out of touch with reality, because that's not how the world actually works, as much as they might think or hope it is.
I suspect a lot of the hatred for these characters is actually due to the writer's own entitlement. Blaming the audience for not liking your characters because the character is a woman is just a laughably bad excuse for the writer. A poor craftsman blames his tools. Where's my hero's journey? Where's my engaging conflict? Where's my fun character moments? Am I excited to even see this character on screen?
they are baiting controversy, its frustrating but it makes them money. im sorry but i cant take "people hate on the live action the little mermaid because the actor is black" seriously come on who do you think i am.
I'd say it's less a matter of blaming their tools, these writers have all of them, but rather blaming their clients for not liking a sub-standard product.
For me Jyn Erso is, in so many ways, the character that Rey should've been. Conflicted, complex, full of uncertainty, and yet still strong and heroic. It's no surprise that audiences really liked Rogue One- because the female lead was a human being, not a billboard.
@@joet8862 that might be a problem with how you understand the character, considering you used the word stoic, and gave examples of the exact opposite of stoicism.
A man named Clifton Duncan once said; "Audiences don't hate diverse characters. What they hate is being slammed as bigots for rejecting bad work from pretentious, unskilled activists posing as writers. If the demography of your characters becomes more important than the story, your story will probably suck."
especially shit like the new little mermaid, i can deal with being black cause technically thats what they shouldve been but they made the hair brown and the songs suck
Indeed. Being "woke" isn't slamming skin tone differences and genders and saying THIS IS ALL WE NEED. Generally I find myself decently woke but I don't find myself ignorant to join in on the "THEY ALL HATE THE MOVIE CAUSE THERE IS A WOMAN" Make the diversity play a small role if not none existant role to focus on character growth and improvement. People want a story they can connect to as well as improve, and have flaws. Not a "knows how to do it all" but is blocked by someone else. Rey Skywalker suffers from that. At least Luke didn't hold a lightsaber until later. She just beat Kylo first encounter. Yes he got shot, but clearly statistically he should've killed her.
As a girl I have always thought that those movies failed because of sexism, not in the sense that audiences didn't like it, but in the sense of not creating new characters, just female versions, not creating complex characters, just make them perfect. It's like 'a woman has to be perfect' 'a woman is superficial ' 'a woman is not worth the effort of writing a good characters' and 'women are so dumb that this is all it takes to sell a movie'
That's what I've been thinking for a while now. All these gender swapped characters just scream lazy and patronizing. Instead of creating new and exciting female characters that tell their own story they just take already established and well loved male characters and make them female. The same thing goes for race swapped characters. Stop being lazy and write new characters that people can identify with, don't just slap a new coat of paint on an existing character.
I am a woman and I agree with you. These characters are simply not sympathetic. They are plastic. Sorry for the mistakes, english is not my native language.
@@poluticon why would they stop if it works? millions of people are oblivious to your very epiphany and yet they celebrate whenever a race/gender swapped hero "is born". Personally i couldnt care less, im a man and i wanne see a good male character, because that is my perspective. If that male character is accompanied/supported by a really good female character, even better. All women surely want the same thing just from a female perspective, yet how can they celebrate over something so stupid? They should relinquish in actual new stories and female characters being born and not accept a wishy/washy gender/race swap. First of all u dont make the audience feel like "others" meddle in their universe and secondly this is a chance to create a new label / studio to generate millions by writing orignal stories with women who suffered and became strong. Im pretty sure we "guys" could have "our" witchers series not ruined, while you could have your very own story that you hold dear.
There may be something to that claim... The market mostly caters to women, because they have frankly proven to be easier to swindle, and to be the ones that do the most shopping. Perhaps this is really just them thinking that women on average will pay more, and are THAT easy to trick. It's not panning out ofc. Not only because that's not as true as they think - But more importantly because it actively pushes men away, and they peddle it in genre's that men dominate(games, action movies, medieval fantasy movies, superhero movies, etc). Your mentions do make me think that may idd have been a big factor. The whole "pink helm, blue helm" idea.
A perfect example comes from two characters in the same works, Ahsoka Tano and Rey. We watched Ahsoka grow from this overconfident and inexperienced padawan to a Jedi through struggles and lessons learned through her journey. Rey didn’t do shit to earn her status
@@homer6292 So all of these people only hate Rey because... What? Because "Double standard >:("... Against another female character? The white woman lost in privilege to the orange alien in the eyes of a bunch of 'greasy nerds'? But the funny thing is, people DID hate Ahsoka when she was first introduced, if I remember correctly, but then she was eventually re-written into a character people found endearing. Rey COULD eventually get a rewrite by someone who actually has talent, but as of now, she's shit. And Luke never even 'defeated' Vader. He literally lost a fucking hand the first time he fought him and had to run away. He didn't even beat Vader in their LAST fight; he just appealed to his father, who wasn't even trying to 'kill' him. What the hell are you even referencing?
Ahsoka was hated when she was first introduced, but there are 4 episodes that focused on her that taught her the lessons she needed to become a better and more likeable character Such as getting her light saber stolen and partnering with the old, slow jedi from the library She learnt patience and taking time to think her actions through rather than rushing into everything and getting into trouble
And if you don't write your character in a way that incorporates your gender, the writing is probably not going to be good. Don't fall for this dumb bullshit.
I do like the use of Toph as an example because Toph is INSANELY powerful right from the word go, easily the strongest of the Gaang outside Aang himself and I'm including Zuko in that. She still has to struggle, and when she masters metalbending, it's because she earned it. She also IS arrogant and frequently unlikeable but also fiercely loyal to her friends. I like her despite her flaws, and you're supposed to.
Characters that have to work hard to reach their goals and grow is something a lot of people from every culture, background, race, and gender can relate to. So it’s mind blowing Disney keeps writing female characters that are just naturally super physically strong and great at fighting. Something hardly any women can relate to.
LOL this video is trying to convince everyone that incel virgins who think "wahmen bad" don't exist. They're all over the internet. That's like denying that the sky is blue.
Writers: *Give a woman some random op ability, make her a girl boss, write her to be unlike ably sarcastic and obsessively goal oriented, give her some quick one liner about how bad men are, make her the instigator in some halfhearted love session* Yeah this is awesome Watchers: Who is she as a person? why is she here? why does she have this power? are there drawbacks to this power? Why is she so snarky? Does she not care about anyone? Why do her powers break all the rules of the powers we set into place previously? Writers: Obviously it flopped because men don't want to watch a strong woman.
@@robin.19 you just proved the writer's point, by saying that the reason why you think these movies are bad is because they have female main character. Regardless, neither misogynist or feminist are right.
Glad that her role in Sicario was mentioned, imo she did really great job for first movie but it went underappreciated because character was specifically made to be kinda not likeable
She actually revealed her secret in an interview. If she sees a script that any point refers to her character as a "strong female empowered protagonist," she groans and throws it in the trash.
3:52 a few friends of mine actually did a presentation on class for this theme, and they used the pictures of a female friend of mine for the test. They used a simple instragram selfie for her, nothing special, and she got like 150 swipes in 2 days. The dude got 0
Vi lost her family twice, grew up in a place where people are regularly beaten up by the police and dragged to prison without a trial, was locked in a cell for about 6 years where she was brutally beaten by guards, had to watch her home turn into a drug infested criminal underworld and she bears a giant burden due to what happened to her sister. Through out all of this, she didn't loose sight of who she is, stayed loyal to her loved ones and prioritized their well being over hers. As Vander said "You've got a good heart, don't ever loose it." That's a great character right there.
Arcane is the perfect counter example to the "audiences are bigots" line. The most primary characters in the show are women (Vi & Jinx) and the only mutually expressed love interest (RIP Sky) in the show is a homosexual relationship. And yet the show was huge, praised almost across the board. Easily the best show I watched of 2021.
@@zigedelic3909 Jayce and Mel are a Mutually expressed hetero relationship. They even get a sex scene. Not to detract from your point, there are a lot of Strong Women in Arcane: Vi, Sevika, Ambessa (Mel's mother) are all physically strong. But it doesn't sideline the men either: Vander, Jayce, Ekko are also strong men. That's not to mention how stereotypical roles are often reversed: Cait's Mother being the working, strong parent; and her dad being what stereotypically women would be. Silco being physically weak but still, for all his crimes, a loving father (not a good one, big difference). Note: a lot of what I said comes from a video analysis by a youtuber called Schnee. He makes great stuff.
I've always loved Mulan 1999. Not specifically because she is female, but because of how much she grew as a character. She went from having a disadvantage and she developed and learned and even found a way for her own upbringing and disguising to become an advantage in the final battle.
It was crazy to me to see Mulan bust out as a superpowered little girl right off the bat like that. It not only doesn't make sense, no kid can relate to that. It went from a tale of childhood struggle to a superhero movie.
Mulan was always one of my favourite disney protagonists because I love characters that win via wits and creativity over strength. Hearing that this aspect of her got cut in the live action is really disheartening.
Gwen Stacy from the Spider-Verse films is also another well-written female character. I'm really happy Lord and Miller didn't try to make her some strong badass who's so tough and can handle everything. No, they made a sincere, relatable, sweet and confident character. One whom you can wholeheartedly relate to in her journey and emotional vulnerabilities because of how real of a character she feels. And I freaking appreciate it!
Here is an interesting but a bit useless fact, Vi from Arcane, Gwen Stacy from the Spider-Verse and Kate Bishop from Hawkeye was all played by Hailee Steinfeld.
"confident" is a very bad way to describe Gwen stacy. She is at best outwardly confident but imo compared to most other characters in Spiderverse she is easily among the least actually confident up till the end of the second movie. Her whole journey in the second movie was about coming into her own and not just following along with thats there and easiest. But to also make the hard choices, stick by your values and do whatever it takes to help your friends.
I watched a breakdown comparing the cave troll fight from Fellowship with the ice troll fight from RoP. Having not seen RoP for myself, I can't say just how much the editing in the breakdown contributed, but I came away thinking that, if a man were to act that way, he would most certainly either become the villain over the course of the story, or it would be revealed that he had secretly been evil all along.
Toph and Katara were so badass. I loved that they were opposites of each other so they could shine in their own way. Toph as strong skilled young bender who overcomed her disability and never identified as victim still strugling with femine problems as how she looks like and not fiting delicate doughter role her parents put her in. Katara was firstly arrogant as best (only) bender in her small village, but she grown as person and mage when world humbled her. She had to study and practice to earn her prestige. At the same time she learned how to use her mother like instinct to support everyone instead of being overprotective and aggressive
I love those characters and for me Toph always felt like a character at she‘s already gone through most of her development before the start of the show. She started off as powerful beyond her disability, independent and strongwilled. She was op and could easily have been a Mary Sue but they gave her small character flaws like her inability to ask for help or rely on others that the overcame with the help of her team and that made all the difference.
A character I don't see mentioned enough in this train of thought is Elizabeth Swann from Pirate of the Caribbean. She's courageous and has some team leader spirit, but doesn't know how to hone that, isn't fully physically experienced yet, and is somewhat bound by the expectations and norms for someone raised in English nobility. The cracks start to show at the start of Dead Man's chest, and by the movie's end she's full-blown pirate the moment she leaves Jack for dead with only a sliver of remorse. By continuing to prove herself physically in combat, she eventually comes into her own as the Pirate Queen in At the World's End's finale.
And I love that despite being able to handle a sword well enough, she never actually won any sword duels with any of the important characters and got absolutely floored by Davy Jones. But most important of all, what makes Elizabeth Swann such an interesting character is the fact that she's human. She has flaws, weakness but also strength and she isn't afraid to show that vulnerability with her relationship with Will Turner. If At World's End were made in the modern day, they would strip all of that away from her and turn her into a one-dimensional, badass do all good all Pirate King who went against the odd to show these misogynistic men that a woman pirate can do anything without the help of another man
I think Ridley Scott said, when writing a character that would become Ripley, he didn't write it to be a male or a female. He just wrote the character and then casted the person, he thought was the best fit. And what came out of it is one of the greatest characters in the history of film. I think that says a lot...
That's one of my favorite trivia pieces about that movie too. Better yet, literally everyone was written ambiguously. Just their last names were specific, and their first names were given when the actors took them. I think that's partially why all the characters feel so genuine, because there was no directorial string-pulling or bias.
The original script (starbeast) that was the basis for Alien was by Dan O'bannon and Ronald Shusett and was genderless. You can see the script online and it included the line after the cast list: "The crew is unisex and all parts are interchangeable for men or women." Scott did not write them ambiguously, he simply picked their genders freely (and made great choices) @@brendansage6876
This is such a great video! I really like how you included the "already attained virtue but still has to struggle" type of good character in this analysis; that one gets forgotten in critiques sometimes, opening them up to the counterargument like "what about Captain America? Isn't he a Mary Sue, too??" So I really appreciated you differentiating those as well!
Arcane is a master class on how to write characters who EARN an audience's respect, something that is severely lacking in every one of the bad examples you gave. We see Vi get walloped in a street brawl multiple times before she defeats her opponent. It's not her victory that makes us root for her, but the fact that she's tough enough to keep fighting no matter what. We see Powder, then Jinx, struggle through failure after failure, with doubt piled on her by others, before she hones her inventions and becomes essentially a force of nature. We see Caitlyn go through the reverse, where she easily could have lived in luxury her whole life, but she chooses a difficult path because she wants to make a difference in the lives of people who are less fortunate than she is. All three of these female characters are incredibly skilled and powerful in their own ways, but that isn't the reason we love them. We love them because we see them earn it, AND the reasons why they choose to.
And I think Mel is a well-written female character that the audience is SUPPOSED to dislike. It's as if the writers looked at Hollywood's many failures to write a strong female lead and decided to use those tropes for the antithesis to the characters that viewers are supposed to root for.
another thing i love about Vi in particular in Arcane, is that she doesn't always win. Even when she does, she gets her shit kicked in. she has to struggle to win, she bleeds. Same with Cait at the very end of Season 1. they don't win, and they suffer or struggle, and each have unique flaws within their personalities.
12:22 I think a character arc being about finding one's own worth and value, realising you are enough etc can actually be good, but it still has to follow that fundamental principle of character arcs: they need to *change*. For example, you could have a character who does everything for everyone else, stretching themselves thin by constantly saving others and neglecting their own wellbeing. You could also have a character with terrible self esteem, who constantly underestimates themselves and never tries new things because they assume they'll fail. You could have an unhealthy perfectionist character, who is driven by the insatiable need to constantly get better, who is never satisfied with who they are. All of these characters could have a "finding their own worth/strength/potential" arc, and have it be satisfying and well written, because something changed. There was a problem in their lives, an inner turmoil that is solved through the events of the story.
Hermoine Granger is a good example of a well written female character IMO. She saves Harry and Ron on multiple occasions with her intelligence and sacrificial attitude. That's a strong character to me.
IMO she is great in the books. In the movies, she is a little boring for always being perfect all the time, specially when you compare her to the bufoon that they made out of Ron, so she could look even superior.
@@iamfreedman6880There's a certain sense in your words but from my personal experience it's not exactly like that. A few of my female friends were experienced and talented in areas that you describe as male only (sports, martial arts, etc) and they didn't have any problem whatsoever. Yes, there are physical differences between male and women and it's very difficult to overcome them with sheer effort, but that doesn't mean they can't do it or that it's an offense to the men that did it. If someone wants to do something and has the skill to do it by all means. The problem with modern society is that they want role models that are exactly like them but better without understanding that a role model is the type of person that you want to be regardless of gender
For me the problem begins when the writers want to create "strong female leads." When I hear that I already know it's gonna be bad. I don't want to feel like I'm watching a strong female lead. I just want to watch a character. The minute you put a label on a character you have already doomed yourself
Well I love a strong female lead. Sarah Connor, Clarice Starling, the kill Bill bride, etc. But quite often they let a girl play an antisocial, sterotypical toxic masculine prick that's full of herself...
Funny thing is Hollywood nailed the formula for strong female characters decades ago. Look at Princess Leia, Ellen Ripley, Sarah Connor, etc. All strong, all feminine, and most importantly, all well-written. But we all know how much Hollywood values writers, so the likelihood of seeing characters like them in the future is slim.
The people running Hollywood don't like that kind of strong women; likely because they want to stroke their egos and claim that their era created the 'strong woman' concept. Or because they're not the 'right' kind of strong that they want.
But they not perfect and the bestest ever they had flaws but todays female characters have to be flawless and better than all male characters. Alpha female beta males. Then you have writers putting themselves into the character.
I wouldn’t say they nailed it, just set the right bones. They left plenty of room for improvement and we’ve gotten far better since then. Not knocks against those characters, just pointing out how in spite of the many failures we see today, there were a great many successes on our way here too, and some of them are among the best characters ever written
Let’s be honest, Mabel from Gravity Falls had a better character Arc than most of these live-action Disney heroines. Katara and Toph? Not even a competition, those two were incredible.
Katara and Toph were two of my favorite characters all time. they were very well written, and actually had character growth throughout the story, which made them actually worth watching.
Another problem with Hollywood's extensive usage of this trope is that it inadvertently suggests that traditionally female roles are somehow lesser, and that to be a strong female character you must reject it entirely. Traditionally female roles require just as difficult as traditionally male roles, I think a character that showcases strength in this role is Nani from Lilo and Stitch.
Also Snow white, Her having traditional female roles led to her becoming the leader of the dwarves because she does things that dwarves dont know how to do such as clean and cook.
well said. while I'd argue that society is mostly trying to move past the idea of "roles" and that plays a huge part of discussions around the topic of genders, I do think we have to acknowledge at least some semblance of those roles and their qualities remain for reasons and that's okay. Like you said, being a strong "motherly" figure is still viewed as favorable even though technically a single father raising a child alone could fulfill those qualities Vi from Arcane is a good example of ignoring roles though. Her character demonstrates PLENTY of traits a vast majority of people would say are masculine in nature but at NO POINT does the show ever feel the need to point that out, not once.
Ironically, turning all heroines into tough, uncaring and steel-nerved brutes signals that a "strong" woman must have "masculine" qualities in order to be invincible. Unavoidably implying that traditionally "feminine" traits are weak or lesser, which is in turn applying a negative connotation to being feminine and thus glorifying masculinity. Which is like, completely distorted from what feminism actually preaches. This is what happens when you don't sit to think about your story and characters for longer than 10 minutes
Yes! I also want a badass character who enjoys dresses and traditionally feminine stuff. Being "girly" doesn't mean you can't be strong and kick ass. Why do all strong female characters need to be tomboys?
I just watched the new Puss n Boots movie yesterday and told my girlfriend exactly this! I said "this is how you write a strong female character!" And she completely agreed with me
Highlighting the hypocrisy of writers making their female characters abrasive, smug, and arrogant when they abhor such traits in male characters is such a great point and a perfect metric for judging the quality of a character If your female character were gender swapped with a male character who possesses the same powers, abilities, and traits and said male character would be hated, then it's a pretty strong indication that your female character should justifiably be hated as well. I would still despise Rey is she were a male.
Unless you think of it as a whole range of possibilities that are available to explore (even when some of those possibilities suck). So, male characters got to cycle through arrogant, smug, etc (eventually to land on more complex and virtuous developmental arcs), but the shallow zone is off limits to women? This is the challenge of transitioning from a "dominant culture" (where the standard for "normal" is straight white male) to a more equitable and inclusive one: the unreasonable demand that those who have been marginalized or excluded have instantaneous mastery of the places previously reserved for the privileged class. No glitches, bumps, missteps, or failures allowed. Only total perfection from the get-go. Ultimately, this perpetuates the status quo "norm" because it allows, "See? You suck. That's why you weren't allowed here in the first place." Consider the millions of poorly written white male protagonists we have endured. Do you have space and patience enough to let women, people of colour, queer folk, people with disabilities make the same number of mistakes necessary to learn and grow?
@@lousialb8962Wattpad exists for a reason, as does independent publishing etc. If it's for practice, go there. I've read a lot of trashy books from new authors, some so bad I legitimately don't understand how the author put it together. But ultimately, those books are practice in a hobby or hobby-job, so aside from ignoring the author and series it's none of my business. Don't generally complain or review them, they're ultimately the works of individuals with limited time/skills. Larger productions on the other hand have the ability to go through multiple edits and reviews, adjustments and rewrites. Storyboarding and meetings to determine characterization. If the team either do not self reflect or ignore criticism, that's on them. Most of the worst protagonists I've read are straight (or bi), white, and male. There are a couple exceptions, but overall the above is true. Quantity and all that. Mary/Gary sues were equal for awhile in my experience, though the lower barrier to publishing has let Gary's take the lead. But queer/feminine writers have been some of the most acclaimed and influential authors for actual centuries. Don't pretend that queer/feminine authors are new at this, they're not. What they have is now a lower, more tolerant, and accessible barrier to entry. This allows for more of their 'bad' writing to enter the public sphere. If it's from an independent author, move on and ignore the author. Small team? Same applies. Hollywood productions? I personally don't care much, but at that point there's too many routes to improve your writing to have excuse. The arts have long held more of repressed demographics, being from one is not an excuse for bad art.
@@lousialb8962 And maybe if they (the writers) were humble about how they failed horrible things didnt get that much out of hand, but no, when people criticize they characters all the fault is on the audience because they are clearly sexist white supremacist that want to keep the patriarchy. The problem went out of hand when they refused to learn and keep pushing again and again with the same characters with the same problems, after all, as the video said there are examples of strong women in recent films that were very well liked (Arcane is a good example).
I really liked your remark on the lost boys, you hit the nail on the head, these writers don't read, the writers of "She Hulk" admitted they didn't read the comics, and even worse, the writers of "The Witcher" openly mocked the books, so how do you expect these people to write a good story ?
In the Generation where every Writer is like M Night Shyamalan to Avatar the Last Air Bender... I heard he had a different presentation to the Creator and Writers. Then he Changed it ALL UP for His Little Girl, giving a Different Movie. Ironically, the Snowman Olaf in Frozen was originally not part of the script, too. That too was put to please their Daughter -- Producer, iirc [or Director]. To be honest, I like Frozen without Olaf. Olaf's character felt too forced in the story to literally be a visual representation of her youth.
@@Mary-Ann_B_Mabaet Besides, they so easily gloss over the fact that she is creating sentient life with a whiff of the hand. That has enormous repercussions.
Yeah, the She-Hulk writers clearly didn't read the comics. I especially knew that when they had Jennifer tell Bruce that her life was worse than his. Her life is paradise compared to Banner's. What did she say she had to deal with? Catcalling? What has Banner dealt with? Being abused by his father and seeing him murder his mother, being constantly hunted by the military, and he admitted to trying to commit suicide in the MCU.
God, I was legit banging my head against a wall because of the Witcher. Nobody gave a f*** about the source material, be it the books or the game. They just transformed Geralt into a sidekick who occasionally makes some noise instead of having actual lines. Yen is suddenly a mother figure for Ciri after literally trading her in to get back her powers and Ciri doesn't have any real character development. She isn't able to make any use of her magical powers and the physical training with Geralt didn't pay off as it should. They made her into a total victim for Yen to save and protect then threw to our face the "Geralt isn't capable enough to be her father/witcher trainer/guardian". They also got paid for this!!! RIP
The writers of She-Hulk also couldn't write courthouse scenes. Which is a bad thing on its own, but becomes absurd when your character is a lawyer. I mean, sure, one can't be an expert of anything, but they could have done something like how House MD had an actual doctor as consultant so that the writers would ask him if they were writing something inaccurate or bad.
As a side note, a show about a lawyer that has to deal with the messes caused by superheroes, only to have those powers pushed upon her and learning how to deal with two different worlds (maybe seeing events through both lenses), would actually make a pretty interesting show. It just has to be written well.
I thought the first few episodes of She-Hulk were fine but then it just got into more... Cringe humor? Not a fan of that but it was alright show 6.5/10.
@@mrcaterpillow9926 I agree. The beginning of the show was good but then it got worse. Every episode at the end of the show, except the episode with daredevil, was bad.
@@ruzgarelci My main issue is the fact they didn't really hold onto the whole lawyer thing and turned it into a bit of a joke. I think they lost so much potential there, it could have been a really good character arc and such for Jen. Will say, I hated how people represented the first couple of episodes. Like when she throws the boulder further than Banner and people were like, "OMG THEY SRE TRYING TO SAY SHE IS STRONGER AND JUNK BLAH BLAH BLAH" then completely forget Banner fucking incinerates a boulder by throwing it, immediately after. Even the scene when she is saying how she handles anger better and peopled jumped on that but like she was lying, she definitely doesn't have a good control on it because she turned! It's ridiculous .
That one scene in Dead Man's Chest still gets a big chuckle out of me, how she is just so done with the boys' crap and even tries to play the frail damsel to get those chucklefucks to stop fighting for one bloody minute. I can feel her frustration every time XDXDXDXDXD
Hailee Steinfield also showed up twice in your list, she's the voice of Vi. She also voiced Gwen Stacy in the Spiderverse movies, seems like she's picking up some really good roles as well!
@@Xhanx11 Audiences hate Bad-Writing AND WE CAN SHOW THAT to the world. We just have to support the currrent Trend-Wave of 'Big Criticism-Essays' like what Madvocate did to The-Flash, Jay Exci did to Doctor-Who, Mauler did to Doctor-Strange, Hbomberguy did to both Sherlock Holmes and RWBY, and what Some-More-News does to Real Life!!
@@loturzelrestaurant The newest doctor strange is not guilty of this. Scarlet Witch is an incredibly powerful character. Always has been. If anything its everything around Scarlet Witch that is poorly written.
@@godturkey4098 Incredibly powerful is nice and all but shes also badly written in that film, so you arent really making a Point here. Her Power in that movie is incosistent and yeah: why not? Why wouldnt she been included if anything 'around her' as you phrase it is 'badly written'. Duh: Shes also badly written.
which is why we should be hating on 80s action movies more. die hard works because mcclane is in way over is head, doing what he’s doing because someone has to. similarly, terminator 2 works because the T800 is more than just a badass machine - it’s a shield for the other two protagonists who are both in much greater danger and act as our emotional centrepieces for the story. even predator, which looks like one of the most generic action movies of it’s time, makes dutch a great protagonist simply by giving him an adversary almost infinitely stronger than he is, forcing him to change his outlook on combat. and, since everyone else has already spoken on it, I don’t even need to mention why ripley is one of the best protagonists in all sci fi. the problem with the 80s action hero is best exemplified in john rambo. in first blood, he’s amazing - a fantastically written character that serves as a genuinely sympathetic hero, a badass who earns his coolness, and a means of making a point about the horrors of war. and then every other film in the franchise shits all over that by making him nothing more than a buff machine gun toting killing machine. such a protagonist works in a video game (see doom) but not a movie. and this model of protagonist infected so many other films of the time - commando, demolition man, any and all steven seagal films, pretty much any chuck norris film, conan the barbarian, flash gordon, etcetera etcetera. these films are horribly written and deserve all the retrospective shit we give to disney’s recent output. they’re just as bad.
@@atomictoaster8013i completely disagree with you. What disney does is so much worse than what lets use steven segall movies does. Disney pushes agendas in a cribgy way and does it so poorly that if anything it just has the opposite affect and they also are completely ruining the entire movie industry by doing absolutely nothing other than remakes. Steven segall made crappy action movies that are fun to watch... Thats it and they're even original (comapred to remakes) with funny moments
@@atomictoaster8013 I don't quite understand what connection you're trying to make. The other Rambo movies from what I remember still have a focus on his mental issues as well as requiring him to use cunning to outsmart his enemies. The mental part can get pushed aside but the creativity in how he attacks is still there. Are you complaining he doesn't have a training arc in those movies? That he isn't only fighting defensively? His expertise is already established with previous movies, he needs to have different struggles that can't be dealt with purely through strength or skill, in which cunning is the best way to show him overcoming those struggles. It sounds like you just don't like action movies, which is fair, but you're misrepresenting why you don't like them to try and defend Disney. Rambo was a war hero with ptsd. Modern Disney characters are trying to be faultless.
Toph and katara from ATLA. In the very first episode katara lacks confidence because her waterbending skills arent very good, and she's traumatized by the loss of her mother. Over the course of the series she not only hones her skills to become one of the best waterbenders and healers in the world, but also learns to look past her prejudice towards the fire nation after zuko joins the team. Toph is an interesting one because she's very quickly established as one of the most capable characters in the group, despite her parents attempts to keep her hidden from the world for fear of her blindness. Her struggle doesnt come in the form of mastering her powers, her struggle is in learning how to have meaningful relationships with others. Like she says before running away from home, "I've never had any real friends"
You missed the parts where Sokka was sexist to Katara in the first episode. Pakku also refused training Katara solely because it wasn't customary for a woman to battle, but to stay in healing huts. Those too are added struggles to her character (especially the Pakku ordeal, since she absolutely needed a competent trainer at that time).
Katara even got angry, why do we forgive katara for being angry at the injustice. But why is there other types of "righteous anger" that feels so bad... Maybe because it's not truly righteous, it's tyrannical anger
Meanwhile Korra: masters 3 elements because why not, masters air using her emotions (it's the OPPOSITE of what she shall be doing), THEN struggles a lot and manages to defeat everyone only because she's Mary Sue and has friends.
Toph is one of the best example of how to write a "girl boss" that is likeable and overpowered. She is funny, emotional, vulnerable, powerful and easy to root for. I love the contrast of her introduction to the series where she destroys a bunch of "men" at there own game to only be beaten by the least manly person ie aang. Seeing how this upset her and showed the audiences although she is powerful she can still lose, and we get ad an audience get to explore her arc as a character, not as "gotcha" one off moment.
@@brayancanon6665 Nah man Avatar The Last Airbender has a crazy good cast of characters, and Aang is far from being a masculine chad hero. Say they made a series to follow Toph on her escapades after the end of Aang's story. I think alot of people would wanna see that.
@@brayancanon6665 just like Vi from Arcane is a secondary character right? Cold take. You literally sat through the entire explanation of why its not the female characters people hate, its the way a lot of hollywood writers write characters that we hate and you still don't get it.
@@iroden5335if you make a good story, you’re gonna have a good point. Think of any good story and ask what the overarching themes and ideals is and you’ll find it
Write characters to tell a story, and write the story to make a point. You (usually) can’t skip the middleman there without sacrificing something in the quality of the writing. It’s fine to make points, though. Even political ones. But all of this must be well written in order for the audience to be receptive to it.
the most importance thing make someone be successful thing is balance. Balance is the most key important thing that what make someone be successful. Overlying one side had worse side affect and had terrible end result if continued.
@@Zahlenteufel1 yep, which has several powerful female characters that compliment the script and actually, unexpectedly, did a half decent job on the Bechdel Test without pandering to its audience. Now it’s far from perfect, but for a show from 1997 it didn’t do half bad.
NO. Why would i hate a strong and independent women? What harm does thag cause us lol. We hate women who belittles other just to prove that they are better.
quite right. a good writer does not TELL US that the character is such and such, they SHOW US. but that takes effort to create situations that shows us the character being whatever it is they want us to see; and preaching fanatics are as a rule in too much of a hurry to do this
Sophie in Howls moving castle always struck me as the embodiment of a strong independent woman cuz despite all the crap she put up with. She was still kind and empathetic towards others and influenced them to be better.
Yes, she's one I thought of when watching this video. Even better, she was old and unattractive, so she wasn't trying to flirt her way through the story either. Which is something else that poorly written female characters do.
@soylentlyso3219 Guess I'll have to go back and watch the movie again. I have read the book and seen the movie, and I didn't notice that big of a difference in how Sophie was portrayed, but there was a big time gap between seeing the movie and reading the book so maybe I didn't notice.
As an animation student that wants to be involved in film making. “Write characters to tell a story and not to prove a point” is something im going to drill into my head.
The hardest thing to do that has the best results is when you write characters with personalities and you stick them in a situation and they behave according to their personality to deal with the situation. Most stories just have characters do what the author wants while ignoring their personality. A characters personality did only change as a result of events in the story where for better or worse. What makes this tough is that you as an author may want something specific to happen, some scene you have in mind, but if it doesn't fit the personality you have to scrap it. If you don't, people can tell they broke character. Sadly badly written characters and stories make up so least 99% of the content out there.
Yes and no. Most great art pieces were made to prove a point (Fankenstein, Moby Dick, El Quijote, Les Misérables, and countless other examples). They just didn't considered the point was enough. If you just care about the point, make an essay. But most of the most important stories do have a point to make, and it's what makes them great.
@@asier_getxo Valid, but your response was a prime example of missing the point. Nothing in the original comment mentioned "important stories don't have a point to make". The quote was "Write characters to tell a story and not to prove a point”, not "write a story". It's the smaller part of the story: the characters.
I'd change that to "say what you want to say through the story and the characters", since every story is trying to prove some point, promote or reinforce some idea. Hopefully it's a good point/idea, a good message, but that can still can fail horribly if the execution isn't done right.
@giannixx Not really, most stories are made to entertain and provoke emotions and don't try to prove anything. And even if they have some message to tell it's normally hidden so well that the audience isn't annoyed by it.
Arcane had the best modern strong female characters in any other medium so far imo. Everyone was just so well written. Vi and Jinx are my personal favorites. Vi is strong, competent and courageous, but she’s so likable, charismatic and caring. Jinx is so complex in a good way and they portrayed madness in the best way possible (I’m looking at you, GOT). I seriously love Arcane. Such a good show, animated or live-action.
While I love those two, I actually think Mel is the best. She’s a smart, cunning woman in a position of high power. In many stories her beauty would be painted as a “stepping stone” she used to gain that power, but we see any of that
Vi and Mel are strong female characters without losing their vulnerabilities making them real characters with internal and external struggles instead of perfected super beings that were seemingly created by computer. That makes these characters so lively and relateable, not only for women but every other person aswell.
They all are well written. I can't find any reason not to like male and female in arcane. Vi, jinx, mel, victor, sevika, jaice, eko some of the best in my list. And my favorite one is silco the best amongst all. He just absolutely perfect.
I like the example I heard between the ghost busters reboot, and the more genuine 3rd. Bith actually had primary female leads. However in the more recent one, they felt more meshed in the story. They just happened to be female.
@@derekeuchner1800 Totally agree, the Afterlife movie was a great movie and it 'felt' like a Ghostbusters movie that just happened to have a female lead. The all female reboot was just not a good movie in my opinion, nothing against the actors as people like Kate McKinnon are great in SNL and have been in other roles, but the movie was just not great. Added to this, in the original ghostbusters Janine was a hard-ass who kept the men in line....in the reboot Helmsworth's character was an idiot.
Oh, my gosh. This is spot on! You articulated an idea that I have believed since The Force Awakens came to theaters - and in much more eloquent and thorough terms. As a woman myself, I don’t care about being “empowered” or “represented” the way Disney believes I do. I just want to see a good story! It feels almost like that’s too much to ask at this point. The company of Disney has become a greedy shell of what it once was, and while there are much more important things in this life than movies and Tv, these modes of entertainment still affect the culture. If you are going to be an organization that influences people, you should at least try to do it in a good and wholesome way.
@@mikeawesome9212 Nobody knows, because you don't know? Did you not realize that she, and two of those characters (and projects), were very heavily highlighted in this UA-cam-video?
Katniss Everdeen is another example of a well written female protagonist. She's talented with the bow at the start, but we learn she had to be to hunt for food to feed her family. She didn't just pick up a bow one day and oh look she hits a bullseye every time. In the arena she makes mistakes, she gets physically hurt either by her own decisions or the other children succeed in their attacks against her. She feels emotional pain constantly. When she becomes the Mockingjay we know she's just being used. She's a figurehead. Other people, including men, are just as competent or even more than her. Their talents shine through. She needs and gets their help. She doesn't do everything by herself defeating everyone invincible without a scratch.
I watched the first movie last week, for the first time in ten years or so, and legitimately thought the same exact thing. To be completely honest, I was somewhat hesitant, because I remembered really liking the books and films as a teenager, but didn't have a vivid memory of the movie. Scarred by the garbage that is mass-produced nowadays, I thought: "I probably just liked it back then because I hadn't seen as much of this "empowering" crap, and the action was cool." But, lo and behold, the story is really good. Katniss's abilities make complete sense, aren't overdone to a ridiculous degree (despite this even being a young adult story, where teens, regardless of gender, are often wildly OP, she actually MISSES SHOTS - incredible), she is not stupidly strong for her size or anything like that, just has a tough personality. And her quiet, somewhat stoic, stand-off-ish character and disgust regarding the system, cool as they may be, actually get her in trouble sometimes, because the games are a TV show, and being charismatic gets you sponsors. As a guy who, by modern standards, apparently hates women - I thoroughly enjoyed rewatching this film about a compelling character... who just so happens to be a girl.
No I didnt like the hunger games movie. Its a typical movie for teens, its not even PG-13. The content is so tame compared to better movies like battle royale and so forth
@princeedwards10 what people don't realise for aliens most of the new characters like vasquez was written with only a last name until they cast someone. The actress came in with high heels and a full dress and got the role. again just great writing
@PaulKMF1 I get it. Make no references to her femininity and she is a great character who happens to be female, right? Except Captain Marvel, Rey, Ms. Marvel, Shari, Echo and all the supposed 'woke' characters don't really make reference to their womanness as a central attribute and still get lambasted as 'message characters.' It's the disingenuous cry of a group that fears it is being left behind.
This video explained all my frustrations so well. I love the fact that you used arcane as an example because that show really understood what it meant to write women. With Vi's character, they did such a great job of not keeping the stereotype of a "strong macho woman" that doesn't have any agency and needs to be "independent". While she is strong and can take care of herself she's also a big softie and takes care of her loved ones all while still needing some support not because she's weak as a character but because she's human.
I love that Vi want's to be like Vander.. the old and the new.. and in her own way she is. It never matters in the story her gender or sexual orientation nor any of these dumb new "empowerment" agendas... she's just Vi, failing, growing, taking decitions that may end up poorly but she choses to keep moving and trying her best to get her family back. Damn what a great show.. and let's not forget about Mel, Ambessa, Sevika.. a wide spectrum of how to portray power, loyalty, ambition.
Its insane that Hollywood cant write strong feminine characters anymore. Like femininity is a weakness in itself and you can't be strong and feminine at the same time. According to the idiots at Hollywood of course. Me who had a loving and strong mother knows exactly how strong a feminine woman can be.
@@rw5622 how is it hard to understand? The writers can easily "tell you" to like a character by: making everyone around the character love them from the get-go, making the character virtuous and having nearly zero flaws right off the bat. Like did u watch the video? Many of the characters mentioned don't earn our love
Mulan is the one of best female heroes by my opinion. Her point was not to prove to anyone that she is a strong - she wanted to help her country, to help her family and father. Even she was weak, she trained hard for stay in the army and became stronger and inspired other teammates to study and practice more.
Yeah I mean the entire country in that time period was incredibly sexist so for her to be able to prove her value despite almost being executed for her treachery and STILL choosing to save her country despite it almost killing her… such a great story
That, and the reason Mulan had to do the things she did was because of the fact she was female, the challenges she faced with physique and social constructs was because of what hun era china believed of women. Her gender was an integral part of the movie, it actually mattered and added to the story that she is female.
In most cases, I believe that it would be ideal to write a character's personality and traits before deciding their gender based on something like a coin flip. Mulan is one of the exceptions to this, as her being a woman is a crucial part of her story.
I like your point about strong characters still finding that they are not enough, yet can still do incredible things. No doubt, this is an extremely important outlook to carry throughout life -- that even I, weak though I may be, can do things to tilt the world toward good.
I honestly love how Toph and Katara were handled. Toph is presented as a "one of the boys" character and that she's tough. But Katara contrasts that a bit; Katara isn't traditionally feminine but she's not also as "one of the boys" as Toph is, and I love their bit in The Tales Of Ba Sing Se because Katara is giving Toph something she never had; an actual friend who she can go out and be girly with. And still this doesn't change Toph's attitude much, just helps explore here character to a much deeper level
"Ya'll hate on Rey just because she's a strong woman" Meanwhile Ahsoka, Leia and Padme are some of the most beloved and iconic characters in Star Wars history
the character has no depth. Ashoka went through growth if you are a fan of star wars you would know Ashoka didn’t become powerful over night same with leia and padme. Rey is more like an Isaiki protagonist, such a dry character only kills this beautiful story
We got to see Ashoka grow up and become a great character, she had talent but was rough around the edges when first introduced but went on to become a legend after years of work. They wanted Rey to be all of that in 1 hour with no back story other then "Surprise she got palpatine blood" 😒
I wouldn't say Rey in the first movie fits entirely into this category; she lives and works alone, she doesn't know what's happened to her parents, she only gradually discovers her powers and she faces terrifying situations while she's doing so, and she only finally accepts her situation in the final battle with Darth Vader jr (I forget his name). Even then she continues to believe that Luke is her destiny, rather than she being his. After that, of course, her character becomes a cypher.
A lot of strong female characters seem to be written with the express purpose of trying to show that women are better or equal to men in all things. I think this is what I really dislike about this character type. Male characters get to just exist and we see them develop where as strong women exist in relation to thwarting men's expectations. It's boring, they're boring and the struggle while real doesn't need to be a central theme in all strong woman content. The great thing about men and women is we're built different we handle situations differently which makes for interesting viewing. I love seeing people play to/discover their strengths as well as being held up by their legit weaknesses.
These "strong female characters" also tend to embody everything the lefter leaning people claim to be toxically masculine too. Theyre abrasive to the point of aggression, rude, snarky, arrogant etc. In general, even without those toxic traits, they seem to do their best to make the female leads more stereotypically masculine, as if that somehow equates to strength. Men can lift a bigger rock and punch harder, sure, but thats hardly the only type of strength. Mulan is the perfect example. She was physically weaker and inexperienced compared to the men, but overcame that through wit, intelligence, and sheer will. Tbh in general i dont think femininity is well accepted in modern society, and i have no idea how we got to that place.
The gist of this whole trend is that women can bench press 1000lbs so long as they believe in themselves. Also they must make a point of humiliating their male competitors who can never measure up since this whole "power comes from believing in yourself rather than hard work" thing only applies to females apparently.
Me as a man i dont hate powerful women. I hate it when in movies it is frantically shown that she is better than men. I think thats a wrong way of giving women a screen
I don't know if you have seen Better Call Saul. But Kim Wexler is the best female lead I've seen ever. All of her merits were earned and she feels so real
That is such a good quote to describe humanity! It makes me think of a quote from Isaac Newton "If I have seen further than anyone else, it is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants"
So true. A female 1 v 1 a man and she does not have supper powers is going to lose even with defense training. The first thing they tell you in defense training is get ready to run because it is all about getting the surprised hit in and then running like hell. That said there are male 1 v 1 monsters that should not have a chance to win either let alone the 1 v 3 or more and winning. If you watch these you will see 1 man fighting 1 man and the others just circling and coming in when the one is finished. If there are 3 or more you are going to lose.
You’re absolutely right: the criticism isn’t of strong women but of terrible writing. The intensity of the stupidity, incompetence and total wrong-headedness of the studio bosses who keep pushing this offensive drivel continues to astonish. Why any board interested in profits and stability would continue to support them is a mystery. The onslaught of badly written, entitled, obnoxious Mary Sues trashing all men is NOT supportive of strong women. It shows how little the people behind this understand what a strong woman is - none of these new characters are believable strong women - and how little they care that their presumed audience despises what they produce. It’s not only self-destructive for the studios, it’s insulting both to the legacy characters and to the audience. I hate the idea of young girls seeing this twisted garbage with the message that it is how strong women should act.
I feel like one of the best strong female and strong male characters were portrayed in The Black Panther - the female characters have flaws, talents, emotions, determination, love, the need to fight and protect and the male characters have a vulnerable side that they show sooner or later, they make mistakes, learn, show selflessness and support, show appreciation and even emotions which is pretty rare to see in bigger movies. One of my favorite movies to watch just because of the writing of characters
It's a reasonable assumption that it is the female executives of these companies that are pushing these character types. It's a reflection of themselves.
Not much point in pointing it out though because they already know that. No honest person genuinely believes that if you love the original Mulan but dislike the remake then you're a misogynist.
The biggest disappointment about Galadriel is that she hardly uses magic, even though she is a sorceress who is only surpassed in the arcane arts by Sauron.
Yeah, it seems the writers of these things think the only possible way to be a strong character is by being a badass warrior. There couldn't possible be another way to be strong and competent
@@rodgerlang884 Its because it looks spectacular. They have no way to properly show sorcery, or at least it wouldnt be as pictoresque. Most movies just go the "melee character" root because its easier to retain attention through stunts and coreographed fights than a well and properly written story.
@@kurai8437 DnD made it clear magic is powerfull and can be used in great movie scenes. But the budget might not be the same and the writers have to actually think during their work.
I don't know if a female hero finding her inner strength is a bad thing full stop. I think Disney however does a really bad job at telling that kind of story. For a story like that to work I would say the female hero needs to be put in situations that push her to her absolute limits, forcing her to find a strength/will power that she didn't believe she had. The problem that you pointed out so well is that, Disney doesn't make them WORK for it! The work and the struggle are key to any hero's story! She can have inner strength but she or any character male or female need to work and struggle to find themselves! That's always been a key part of the hero's journey! Great video! P.S. This isn't to say that i disagree with your point about them saying "your perfect as you are". There's no story if that's true. I'm only saying I think she can hold all the power within her already but she has to be made to work/learn how to access it and or control it. There has to be a struggle.
Agreed, the actual problem with "strong female characters" nowadays is that the media thinks that people want to see female characters that were born badass when neither male nor female audiences want that. Everyone likes and admires characters that had to work hard, struggle and evolve to become strong and proving themselves, no matter if they're a male or female character, and it's a shame that writing in media is so political in every sense, whether it's about gender, sexuality or race to the point where characters are more like caricatures with only one personality trait that is directly tied to one of those political themes and it sucks.
This is why audiences *LOVED* _Arcane: League of Legends_ . Not only the spectacular animation, but amazingly strong and well-written female characters we actually _care_ about. That's something that is sorely missing in recent Disney movies and several Disney TV shows.
@@primary2630 Viktor and Silco are og fr, fr Viktor is the love of my life, and so it will be yours to see him fall in the next season will be... perfection
This is easily the best take on why the trend of "powerful female characters" is bad. It's not because they're women. It's because they're _lazily-written_ women.
@@Leptospirosi Incompetently written characters that only exist and are forced because the people behind those productions are afraid to be seen a certain way and are appealing to the modern demographic. Don't misinterpret their laziness as anything less than deceitfulness, because that's what it is.
Toph is one of the most likeable avatar characters. Even when katara and aang and even sokka were main characters.. everyone likes toph due to her personality and her way of adapting.
@@thorin1045 Exactly! I don't mind female characters strong from the start, but she has to have a flaw! On top of having flaws, she's also not a know-it-all. She contributes, she kicks ass, but she also needs help once in a while, it's perfect.
While she knows she's strong and talented, Toph actually still feel insecure about her blindness and experience, which is why she acting rude to hide that side from others. I mean to compare bad character writings, those "girl boss" are harsh and bossy because they think they're strong and right (which the story support that). Toph acting like that because she knows how "weak" she actually is and trying to hide her feeling like immature kid.
Toph has moments where she isn’t strong. We are allowed to see her flaws and her fears, and they are incorporated into her character in a way that makes her feel fleshed out and complex. Often her traits can be a positive AND a negative. I think that tends to be a better way to write characters: you can have a character that’s a know-it-all, but that trait can also really hinder them as much as it helps. I really liked the concept of One Punch Man because you have an overpowered protagonist and that’s actually THE PROBLEM. Too many overpowered characters have little to no repercussions for their power 🤷♀️.
Eeeh. Hawkeye show mentioned! I really enjoyed that our female kid sidekick actually had to flub up a few times to gain experience first! Her journey actually felt earned and it remained respectful to Hawkeye to have him remain the experienced mentor.
right? I was so upset that ppl who hadn't watched Hawkeye were criticizing it so much. Is marvel flopping right now? Yes. But Hawkeye was prob my favorite series marvel has done. Kate was awesome
No one would expect that out of all the new heroes, the rich already talented girl would be the one with the best development and actual charisma, they really did a good job with her.
Sicario. Yes, another brilliant film with her taking the lead. She really has done a lot of amazing roles. The TV series 'The English' is another one. Its almost a pulp fiction western.
Emily Blunt has been pretty open about tossing out any script that specifies "Strong female lead" because it's a shit concept that doesn't generally lead to a good script.
I agree with this video. My mom and I went to see Wonder Woman (the first movie), and we really enjoyed it. That was because she HAD to learn how to be a hero. Despite her powers, her bigger weakness was her naivity, she thought that defeating Ares will fix everything in the world and she learned that humans were more complex. She had to walk the path of the hero to became one. THAT is what makes her more relatable and, ironically, human. Others female caracters lack of these caracteristics and at the end become supeflous and anoying.
I completely agree. I absolutely loved the first Wonder Woman, because while the antagonist wasn't all that great, the protagonist had a believable and inspiring journey, of seeing being able to see the imperfections of the world, and yet coming to understand that despite this, there were those still worth fighting for. She got to see that people have good and evil, but that they AREN'T good and evil, in that most don't fit perfectly into one category or the other. On the one hand, there were plenty of flaws in the "good" men fighting for the allies, such as the mysoginy of the brass, and the imprefections of Steve Trevor and his team of saboteurs, spies and assassins, as well as the fragily and very human pain of the "evil" characters, such as the scientist's terror at Wonder Woman and her scars implying a painful past. The fact that Wonder Woman is almost tempted by Ares into murder, and that she is able to defeat him only after changing her binary perception of the world, is what makes her a great protagonist and someone to root for.
@@estebanpineros9409yeah no, wonder woman is a terrible example. Shes a mary sue aswell. She single handedly defeats the Germans in the trenches of world war 1. She walks around like a shampoo commercial making a mockery out of the suffering misery and death of millions. Awful awful movie
Stop watching this video already.
If you refuse to do so, you could at least support me on Patreon. www.patreon.com/MasterSamwise
no
No
The UA-cam Algorithm gods have spoken... they said no...
no
Nuh uh
“Write characters to tell a story not prove a point” Great line!
So true!!!
You can also probably prove that point or at least give it some light if you tell that story.
Stories have themes, that's kinda "proving a point"
I agree with this in the way it was intended tho
Story’s reveal things that are true, when we are proving a point we are trying to hard. Whether the thing is true or not, the bs meter goes off lol. Because if it’s true you don’t have to prove it. It’s self evident. It just needs to be seen.
If people really understood you, completely, as you really are, would you feel the need to hide? Story’s are meant to reveal our true selves, not to enhance our fake approval seeking ego.
@@grahamthomas9319 True. An example that comes to mind is living for today instead of lamenting yesterday, in Up. It was symbolized beautifully in Mr Fredrickson choosing to let his house go.
"Don't make a great female character, make a great character that happens to be female"
-some wise person
Edit:
Yes, some characters are naturally female and have to be. The point is to not force a character to be female just to satisfy some inclusion policy. Also, characters that "prove females are worthy" or something like that actually proves nothing because they are fictional characters in fictional stories. I'm not saying women aren't worthy, I'm just highlighting the fact that you can't prove something by making a fiction movie about it. In essence: make a good character without enforcing features that are unfitting for that particular character or that would make no sense.
it should be the same with men though
@@alejandrasanchez3022 very true.
@@alejandrasanchez3022 it seems like men characters don't usually have this problem of being male before being strong, at least in western culture
@@nicholas_obert a lot of it is due to sexism that still exists to this day, for many many decades women were seen as nothing more then trophies and objects for households. In the broad scheme of things, that's only been different for a little over 30-40 years. That's nowhere near enough time to undo the shackles of sexism, considering racism is still extremely prevalent and the civil rights act was over 50 years ago.
This doesn't excuse this bad character writing, just a reason for why some people think they have to do it like this. Men don't have the problem of "being strong and masculine" because that's how its seen, but you need to see how people react to when a man is not very masculine but still a strong character, or if a man is based around sex appeal. Women get away with "being sexy and beautiful" driven a lot more due to culture. THere's a lot of sexism that goes both ways that a lot of people don't realize is there.
@@ItsAMaelstrom If the character writing is in your words "inexcusable" we should *all* reject that as the status quo. We should not sit here and say "well, but some people need this sorta hero/story", racism and sexism have, in one form or another (even occurs in matriarchal societies) existed since things that were "not all the same" have existed. That does not mean that every single story should start off with "Once upon a time there was a minority that was historically oppressed, we shall soon learn how that with a little pluck and free super powers they can make it ok for them to be themselves". I am gonna make a call back to an old 90s show called "Buffy the Vampire Hunter"; the main character *mcguffin* and thus is fated to be a vampire slayer... and she was *awful* at it in the beginning. All of the main characters were awful at the new roles they were adjusting to because; adjusting to life *sucks* and that is all something people can identify with.
Was Buffy the ideal female character in the ideal setting to tell the ideal story? No. Was she someone who despite *mcguffin* and was now supernaturally strong and such someone who still worked her butt off learning about herself, her role, her powers, how to adjust to how those powers effect those in her life and a hundred other small things to become the person that saves the day? Yep, and despite the occasionally cringy episode men and women both liked the show, both were cheering on a mostly female main cast, sure they were learning a lot of stuff from some old British guy who had "all the answers" except he didn't... He had no idea to relate to the cast in the beginning and expected everyone to do what he said due to his job title, which did not go over too well.
There are tons of heroines/main characters who suffer and fight to be the winner or to simply be "good enough" and we are always interested in those stories, as it gives us the slight belief that if we work hard enough we can effect the world. The stories where someone just gets something amazing with no work/pain are awful no matter who the character is, it's why most people like Batman more than Superman. Both were handed privileges' by birth, both had a moment of realization that forever changed their lives, but all the one had to do is take off his glasses to be the hero. The other worked, studied, used his wealth in chaotic good pursuits in order be a, if not "hero" to become an anti-hero for the people to rally behind, yet still condemn enough for Bruce's (spoiler) life to still be really difficult.
The worst part is when they get called out for bad writing they pull the sexism card to cope for their lack of skill
Not so much lack of skill (even if it is clearly there) as thinking that pushing an agenda is an acceptable proxy for actually writing a story/character.
Yea, but the biggest problem here people do not bring up the bad writing or make legit reasons as to why the movie is horrible they only bring up the part where the lead is a female and then go off on how "feminism is ruining movies". How many times has Hollywood made Mary Sue male characters? I can name plenty and audiences never complained at the same volume. It's pathetic.
@@imposter-hero-2736 For sure there are big problems on both sides. People jumping on the occasion to voice their hate, and not being able to argue the issue rationally like this video does so well
@@imposter-hero-2736 yeah, people don't get a chance to bring up bad writing or legitimate criticism because even before any of that can be discussed, your side has already fired up the buzzword minigun; sometimes in anticipation of stuff that hasn't even been said
@@imposter-hero-2736 There shouldn't be "sides" here based on feminism or anti. The sides should be divided by, "Is this a well written, acted, directed movie/show". As shown in the video and there are countless other examples Hollywood (mostly Disney) trying to do a good thing has utterly ruined their movies through poor execution.
- Katniss Everdeen (Hunger Gms.)
- Helga Sinclair (Atlantis)
- Neytiri (Avatar)
- Ellen Ripley (Alien)
- Princess Leia (SW)
- Sarah Connor (Termina.)
- Clarice Starling (Sile. of the Lambs)
- Dana Scully (X-Files)
Do I need to say more??? 100% what matters is the story.
Wow you're so efficient!
Saved 2 letters of grueling work in Games (Gms.)
Saved the terrible trial of 6 letters in Star Wars
Relinquished yourself from the tortuous experience of typing 3 letters in Terminator
And finally, saved the countless hours needed to type 3 letters to finish the word Silence (this one is even weirder than the others cus it's just such a random spot)
Also, I realized as I typed this, because of autocorrect and typing the periods themselves, it was probably harder to do your shorter names than the actual ones.
@@jzmc7562I don’t get it either😂😂…like what’s so hard in typing the whole wording out, literally “-tor” and “nce”!
People are so weird…
You make great points. And if you don't mind, I was wondering what the reason was for abbreviating the way you did?
@@jzmc7562Well. That was pedantic.
@@adielebelieve1698 I've seen people type a complete paragraph in title case. I wonder what goes through these people's minds to do something that require _more_ effort to do something, ultimately less comprehensible than if they had just typed it out normally.
As a woman, it doesn’t feel empowering or inspiring. It feels patronizing and pitying. They need to stop doing this
what u mean? its not like they do much females. I mean look at star wars female leads what 10 percent and people still complain. like a lot of people call ahsoka a mary sue even though she isnt and is one of the best female characters ever
@@ladyriethegoldendelmo5441 I think you have Ashoka confused with Rey little buddy. I haven't seen anyone call Ashoka, one of the most developed Star Wars characters of all time (thx Clone Wars + Rebels,) a Mary Sue. So I'd like to see where you got that from. Aside from your ass I mean. Besides, she didn't bring up Star Wars. You did
And she isn't saying "stop using female characters." She's saying using the typical Hollywood "strong female character" archetype is harmful, and that she wants it to stop. Learn to interpret sentences in their full context. It'll get you further in life
@@minejack7773 uh mate? I am not confuse. and no I dont call ahsoka a maryu sue. type ahsoka mary sue and u see that one female (youtuber) who makes a whole channel about ahsoka being a mary sue (I'mYourAlibi)
@@minejack7773 but yea (I'mYourAlibi) is wrong about ashoka by a long shot lmao
When I watch these horrible movies about women, I always wonder what women think of this crap. Now I know.
There are scenes in movies and tv where the women acts so stupid and idiotic, I cheer for the killer to get her.
I like how no one hated Gamora...
Despite she being the 2nd strongest Physically and strongest In Overall Combat....
Because she was written perfectly in the guardians of the galaxy franchise..
Her and Nebula have a very interesting dynamic. Nebula is probably a stronger character than Gamora because not only did she have to overcome Thanos' indoctrination since she was a child, she had to overcome her hatred of her sister borne from Thanos' abuse. She projects all the pain she was put through onto Gamora instead of dealing with the reality that Thanos was responsible for it, something that Gamora came to realize much sooner.
Facts bro. Gamora was a great character, selfless, a badass, and (while I was a bit heartbroken), still a great character throughout with her memory loss and everything.
Well she did loose to Rocket and Star Lord their their 1st encounter. And has to rely on Star Lord when she is taken to showers.
@@roxtechsbro, tue only person in the group that wouldn't need help in the shower scene was Groot, all the other guardians would die alone in the shower
Drax was physically strongest...but he was more of a slow grappler and brawler,only needed when they need raw force...but gamora not only had strength and speed but also more fighting skills and fineness...
Theres a quote by a woman on tumblr i believe where she says something along the lines of "if i have to act meek and inferior for you to feel like a strong man, then you arent a strong man." I think that also applies to strong female characters in shows; "if your female character has to have incompetent men around her to highlight her competence, she isnt a competent character."
actually "if i have to act meek and inferior for you to feel like a strong woman, then you arent a strong woman." but it's more than meek or inferior, since the men are patriarcal, sexists, homophobes, transphobes, micro-agressing, racist, idiots, fatphobic, magahatter, patriotic, nationalistic and etc.
Exactly, the female would just be less incompetent than the male characters, that does not make her superior and more often just straight up overpowered.
Thanh?
"a quote by a woman on tumblr" - ah yes... who could forget her, lmao
Yup
Haley Steinfeld is a common denominator in most of the good examples. She's Kate Bishop in Hawkeye, the voice of Vi in Arcane, and the voice of Gwen in Across the Spiderverse. She's amazing
She's talented
and she also was in “true grit”! imp one of the best examples of a “strong character” who happened to be a young woman)
She’s definitely got a good agent/manager sorting her out these roles and a keener eye for a stronger script than a lot of other actors
Maddie in True Grit didn't take no shit either. People tend to gloss over that movie even though she did really well as a 13 year old sharing the screen with Jeff Bridges, Matt Damon, and Josh Brolin. Along with a lot of other talent.
True Grit. Don't forget True Grit.
It's not just Vi, all of the women in Arcane are so well written and have such varied personalities and looks but without being forced, they are all so well thought out and important to the story they want to tell. And last but not least, they don't make the male characters stupid or useless so that they shine more, on the contrary they are on par and have interesting interactions between them.
Jayce is bland
@@calebmerkellytJaycee’s lore is lame anyway
@@calebmerkellyt jayce is fine. i mean he's one of the weaker characters but shows his change in values and character. but yeah he's kinda just moving along with the story reacting the for most part.
@@calebmerkellyt But Victor is cool af
They all have their goals, and their pros and cons of their personalities in reaching those goals. These bounce and blend well with each other and thus interesting interactions.
good ol' hollywood thinking that a strong woman needs to be more like a man, instead of making a real character
EDIT: This comment was written at like 2 am in a few seconds, and I have notifs muted so I didn't see all the replies. To clear up confusion, I do mean man as specifically the self absorbed toxic masculine stereotype that is still common in media. A blending of traditional femininity and masculinity is needed for a truly good male or female character, and no gender is bound to a single set of values or way of life.
It's like they think femininity doesn't have inherent strength...
Oh wait...
True
You heard it here folks! Masculine characters are not characters! /j (This is a good take. I am just poking fun at a literal reading)
Feminism was mastered in Legally blonde almost 20 years ago and they just kinda forgot about it and started doing it all wrong
@@jorgecuevas8843 Looking for feminism from corporate America is like looking for an honest politician.
As a male that scene of Mulan climbing the pole with those gold medals is so inspiring and gives me chills to this day
Amen, man. Likewise when the Emporor dresses her down, then starts the honor bow at the end of the film and we see her character arc complete. I LOVED the animated Mulan. The live-action was a disgrace.
as a kid i always loved mulan and thought of her as my fav princess, because she overcame the fact she was undervalued because she was a lady, and she proved people wrong just by showing she could do what nobody else could. and eventually she opens up other characters to the fact that women aren't inherently weak, nor is physicality the most important thing to be considered "powerful". her struggles were incredibly relatable esp as a young athlete and her arc was good and realistic.
i havent seen the live action version and do not plan to, but my love for OG mulan remains strong
I thought that scene was badass showing that you can’t over come everything with brute strength but Disney wants woman to be everything and have no flaws
And Mulan is great example of "Finesse over strength", she use delicate strategies and wisdom instead of brute force, which these new "strong women" keep using.
Mulan was fun to me as a kid, but after serving in the military, in became one of my all time favorite animated Disney movies since I can relate to Mulan on a deeper level (I'm male, by the way). The MCU's Captain Marvel isn't relatable to me because she reminds me of male bullies that made my life a hell in school and the military.
Blue Eyed Samurai is a good example of a female lead that goes through that struggle to earn her powers.... AND its a good narrative story.
Yeah for the first couple of episodes she feels like another strong character set out for revenge but then comes the episode "The Tale of The Ronin and The Bride" which changes the perspective completely.
@@novasparrow4210YES!! So fantastic
@@hayleyz1703it's also clear she's not overpowered. Things go wrong for her OFTEN. It's not easy at all
It's really sad when the directors and writers resort to "people hate strong female characters" whenever their films end up failing. That defense itself is just weak.
This serves the purpose of victimizing women greatly though. As the plot does. Almost if those movies were filmed for that purpose rather than for the purpose of being good successful movies.
Weak men come up with weak defenses.
Good writers and showrunners need no defenses.
The worst part is that people eat that excuse up.
@@Squeekysquid I hear that she's getting a solo story to try and redeem her character. The sad thing is, if they had done everything right with the sequel trilogy they wouldn't have to try and redeem her character.
@@Squeekysquid I get the feeling of the winging it all right.
Lucas had a general idea of where he was going with the original and the prequel trilogies.
But for the sequel trilogy? With every entry it felt like they were leading up to something else. Why bring up that Fin is force sensitive if they don't do much with that idea? What was the point of showing the kid using the Force if it is never referenced again?
The entire trilogy doesn't need to be completely written out word for word. But they should have at least known what they were going to do next and follow through.
I think the irony of the "sexism" card is that they are ultimately defending writers not respecting women enough to put real effort into their characters and arcs
FACTS
theres also that poorly written male characters dont seem to get as much flack as poorly written female characters. if audiences cared about writing that much 80% of marvel movies would be tanking
@@mzamnesia7190that’s not true 90% of movies are well written. Name me one movie that isn’t.
@@mzamnesia7190 I would argue that even the worst films in the first few marvel phases still had interesting main characters and usually fell victim to weak pacing and unmemorable villains.
Take the recent barbie movie for example. It was very well recieved and did good numbers at the box office despite preaching to an extent none of these movies people rag on have ever reached. It did this by being a good movie, with a script and characters that the writers actually gave a damn about.
@@whyyoumad4686 not true nearly all marvel films are shit
Mulan was my favorite Disney princess as a kid because no prince had to save her instead she saved her country, while at the same time falling in love with a man that was still stronger than her. She had to learn to fight but she was smarter than everyone. She used her gender as a way to trick her enemy's because no one suspected a women to fight, and she won! The live action remake removed all the things that made Mulan unique and amazing.
I didn't know anything about the live action remake of Mulan, I just knew it existed, until watching this video. I thought they would just copy and paste the animated one but I didn't think they'd fuck up something so simple. Story was way better before.
Plus the new one didn't have the funny dragon!
@@viveklimboo1605 That's a crime in and of itself.
@viveklimboo1605 ngl that's why I didn't watch the live action
They really took away 100% of the things that made the movie good
5:09 the only line in She-Hulk I actually laughed at because it's so absurd that it almost seems like satire, except we all know that they took it completely seriously
Man, Edge of Tomorrow is such an enjoyable movie. Emily Blunt's character's OP status is logically explained AND used to further the plot all while showing her as a really skilful, knowledgable badass who's still vulnerable underneath the battle-hardened exterior. Cannot believe professional writers don’t learn from examples like that
I am not sure it could be put as an example of a good hollywood story/characterization though, since it is from a Japanese manga. It actually shows even more how there are so few examples of good female character design that you kind of need to borrow them or from the past or from other nations
Fr Edge of Tomorrow is my favorite movie. Even after she lost the thing that made her strong, she still showed how much of a badass she was
@@leonardobertuzzi3042 Edge of Tomorrow though is only really loosely based off All You Need Is Kill. The majority of the story is actually largely original to the movie.
@@StrikeNoir105Eat least Edge of Tommorow had a good ending. All You Need Is Kill's ending is bittersweet at best.
@@StrikeNoir105E i would say it's pretty close to the original other then the ending though
As a child girl, one of the female character I liked the most was Elizabeth Swann from Pirates of the Caribbean. She went from an innocent girl afraid of pirates to one of the most badass pirates of the franchise. Shame to the writers for her character arc in Dead Men Tell no Tales. It felts like going backward.
Yees, she became as devious as pirates when necessary as well which was awesome
She was such an inspiration for young girls around the world! Including me back then!
She was actually never afraid of pirates, she was fascinated by them, even in the very first scene of the first Pirates movie. I get what youre saying and totally agree, i had a huge crush on her not just because shes pretty but also smart and capable. I found her role in the subsequent Pirates movie franchise to be a bit contrived though, as she had never had swordsmanship lessons but turned into a swordsman on Par with Will, arguably the best swordsman in the franchise. I thought that was a bit weak, but i didnt let it ruin the movie, just a plot hole.
The only thing I didn't like about her was how she seemingly became a skilled swordsman/fighter out of nowhere, even though she was a fairly sheltered noble woman before that. she could have practiced off screen. But there's the key, that was "off screen". Would have liked to actually see her grow in that department rather than "I can suddenly fight on equal terms with veteran pirates now, or even outright beat them."
ikr
i was really hyped to see her fight with a sword for the first time
great character overall
As a women myself, I completely agree with this video. Recently, Disney has been making stories in the idea that all strength, power and abilities come naturally and don’t require hard work or great sacrifice- which is just total nonsense. They must think that a character is automatically likeable just because they are a strong women against the world. No, if you want me to like any character, man or woman, I need to see their struggles and hardships, and how they learn and grow off other people. -Not just having a moment of self-belief and then defeating the villain single-handedly.
Arcane really did create the blueprint for building strong characters. Both good and bad. Vi is a great example of a character that grew from tragedy during her childhood into a hero. All the steps along the path were beautifully laid out and executed. If you have avoided this show because it’s a “cartoon”, stop! Arcane has very deep characters built through tragedy and struggle. It’s not perfect in every way. But it is brimming with quality that is so hard to find in 90% of all other shows out today.
That Jedi girl had Hella struggles, we only had to watch the movie once she lived it...
But the Live Die Repeat girl di have to deal with Tom Cruise but at least she got a space suite when he running everywhere jumping on couches.
@@johnfletcher6814 Arcane was actually one of the best series I've ever seen hands down. I also recommend to anyone that loves a GREAT story to go watch it right now, fan or no fan
The fact that you had to say "As a woman" is appalling. The fact that you're a woman has nothing to do with being able to agree with something that concerns your gender. Lmao so disgustingly modern. I should say, this is not hate, I don't care, just making an observation.
@@rhexsusx4428 Ehm, it was actually quite refreshing to read a sane womans thoughts on the matter given the subject in this “woke hysteria” are “bad female writing”
But of course you had to fire off the “this is not hate. I’m simply making an observation.”
You, my friend is the target audience for she-hulk and all these “modern woke bullshit”
and original poster should pay this comment no mind hahaha
Fantastic video. What you said about the problem of self-actualization and having the message of the film be that you are enough and all you need to succeed can be found within yourself is exactly why the people who make these films, and those who enjoy them, don't understand why other people don't like them and therefore claim that we must just be misogynistic.
Because the thing is... that message is the worldview those people have. They genuinely believe that that message is true and good. So when people criticize these films, they see nothing wrong with them and just assume the only reason people would dislike them is because of the female lead. They can't understand that they are writing films that operate on a worldview that is not only stupid and self-centered, but also completely out of touch with reality, because that's not how the world actually works, as much as they might think or hope it is.
I suspect a lot of the hatred for these characters is actually due to the writer's own entitlement. Blaming the audience for not liking your characters because the character is a woman is just a laughably bad excuse for the writer. A poor craftsman blames his tools. Where's my hero's journey? Where's my engaging conflict? Where's my fun character moments? Am I excited to even see this character on screen?
they are baiting controversy, its frustrating but it makes them money. im sorry but i cant take "people hate on the live action the little mermaid because the actor is black" seriously come on who do you think i am.
I'd say it's less a matter of blaming their tools, these writers have all of them, but rather blaming their clients for not liking a sub-standard product.
Also writing them as they would bad fanfiction. Not good fanfiction/well.
Bad tools, accountability. I like you’re metaphor.
your**
The Woman King
based on a true story, except it's completely reversed
For me Jyn Erso is, in so many ways, the character that Rey should've been. Conflicted, complex, full of uncertainty, and yet still strong and heroic. It's no surprise that audiences really liked Rogue One- because the female lead was a human being, not a billboard.
Jyn Erso, wow, what a woman! I just simply love her.
Still sad they didn't have Mara Jade be the Surprise Force User at the end of season 2, on the hunt for Luke.
Yeah just like her buildable Lego action figure😂😂😂
She was a bit too stoic to me, too bland, she was either really miserable looking or crying. I just couldn’t like the character
@@joet8862 that might be a problem with how you understand the character, considering you used the word stoic, and gave examples of the exact opposite of stoicism.
A man named Clifton Duncan once said;
"Audiences don't hate diverse characters. What they hate is being slammed as bigots for rejecting bad work from pretentious, unskilled activists posing as writers. If the demography of your characters becomes more important than the story, your story will probably suck."
truth fact.
especially shit like the new little mermaid, i can deal with being black cause technically thats what they shouldve been but they made the hair brown and the songs suck
Indeed. Being "woke" isn't slamming skin tone differences and genders and saying THIS IS ALL WE NEED. Generally I find myself decently woke but I don't find myself ignorant to join in on the "THEY ALL HATE THE MOVIE CAUSE THERE IS A WOMAN"
Make the diversity play a small role if not none existant role to focus on character growth and improvement. People want a story they can connect to as well as improve, and have flaws. Not a "knows how to do it all" but is blocked by someone else. Rey Skywalker suffers from that. At least Luke didn't hold a lightsaber until later. She just beat Kylo first encounter. Yes he got shot, but clearly statistically he should've killed her.
Yeah.
sounds like something a bigot would say
I love that you gave Kate Bishop a shoutout. The Hawkeye show (and especially that character's writing) is extremely underrated.
As a girl I have always thought that those movies failed because of sexism, not in the sense that audiences didn't like it, but in the sense of not creating new characters, just female versions, not creating complex characters, just make them perfect.
It's like 'a woman has to be perfect' 'a woman is superficial ' 'a woman is not worth the effort of writing a good characters' and 'women are so dumb that this is all it takes to sell a movie'
That's what I've been thinking for a while now. All these gender swapped characters just scream lazy and patronizing. Instead of creating new and exciting female characters that tell their own story they just take already established and well loved male characters and make them female. The same thing goes for race swapped characters. Stop being lazy and write new characters that people can identify with, don't just slap a new coat of paint on an existing character.
lol
I am a woman and I agree with you. These characters are simply not sympathetic. They are plastic. Sorry for the mistakes, english is not my native language.
@@poluticon why would they stop if it works? millions of people are oblivious to your very epiphany and yet they celebrate whenever a race/gender swapped hero "is born". Personally i couldnt care less, im a man and i wanne see a good male character, because that is my perspective. If that male character is accompanied/supported by a really good female character, even better. All women surely want the same thing just from a female perspective, yet how can they celebrate over something so stupid? They should relinquish in actual new stories and female characters being born and not accept a wishy/washy gender/race swap. First of all u dont make the audience feel like "others" meddle in their universe and secondly this is a chance to create a new label / studio to generate millions by writing orignal stories with women who suffered and became strong. Im pretty sure we "guys" could have "our" witchers series not ruined, while you could have your very own story that you hold dear.
There may be something to that claim... The market mostly caters to women, because they have frankly proven to be easier to swindle, and to be the ones that do the most shopping. Perhaps this is really just them thinking that women on average will pay more, and are THAT easy to trick. It's not panning out ofc. Not only because that's not as true as they think - But more importantly because it actively pushes men away, and they peddle it in genre's that men dominate(games, action movies, medieval fantasy movies, superhero movies, etc).
Your mentions do make me think that may idd have been a big factor. The whole "pink helm, blue helm" idea.
A perfect example comes from two characters in the same works, Ahsoka Tano and Rey. We watched Ahsoka grow from this overconfident and inexperienced padawan to a Jedi through struggles and lessons learned through her journey. Rey didn’t do shit to earn her status
Wait until you see Disney's take on Ahsoka. You'll LOVE it! /s
@@DamienDarksideyou say that like the suckquels haven't already proved what Disney does.
Hear! Hear!
@@homer6292 So all of these people only hate Rey because... What? Because "Double standard >:("... Against another female character? The white woman lost in privilege to the orange alien in the eyes of a bunch of 'greasy nerds'? But the funny thing is, people DID hate Ahsoka when she was first introduced, if I remember correctly, but then she was eventually re-written into a character people found endearing. Rey COULD eventually get a rewrite by someone who actually has talent, but as of now, she's shit.
And Luke never even 'defeated' Vader. He literally lost a fucking hand the first time he fought him and had to run away. He didn't even beat Vader in their LAST fight; he just appealed to his father, who wasn't even trying to 'kill' him. What the hell are you even referencing?
Ahsoka was hated when she was first introduced, but there are 4 episodes that focused on her that taught her the lessons she needed to become a better and more likeable character
Such as getting her light saber stolen and partnering with the old, slow jedi from the library
She learnt patience and taking time to think her actions through rather than rushing into everything and getting into trouble
Remember folks: the gender of the character does not matter, as long as it is good writing.
And if you don't write your character in a way that incorporates your gender, the writing is probably not going to be good. Don't fall for this dumb bullshit.
I do like the use of Toph as an example because Toph is INSANELY powerful right from the word go, easily the strongest of the Gaang outside Aang himself and I'm including Zuko in that. She still has to struggle, and when she masters metalbending, it's because she earned it. She also IS arrogant and frequently unlikeable but also fiercely loyal to her friends. I like her despite her flaws, and you're supposed to.
Characters that have to work hard to reach their goals and grow is something a lot of people from every culture, background, race, and gender can relate to.
So it’s mind blowing Disney keeps writing female characters that are just naturally super physically strong and great at fighting. Something hardly any women can relate to.
LOL this video is trying to convince everyone that incel virgins who think "wahmen bad" don't exist. They're all over the internet. That's like denying that the sky is blue.
@@One.Zero.One101 the thing is you weirdos call everybody who disagrees with you about stuff like this an incel.
ATLA is such a good example of this and I’m glad to see it used a bit in this video! A very fun watch for sure.
Writers: *Give a woman some random op ability, make her a girl boss, write her to be unlike ably sarcastic and obsessively goal oriented, give her some quick one liner about how bad men are, make her the instigator in some halfhearted love session* Yeah this is awesome
Watchers: Who is she as a person? why is she here? why does she have this power? are there drawbacks to this power? Why is she so snarky? Does she not care about anyone? Why do her powers break all the rules of the powers we set into place previously?
Writers: Obviously it flopped because men don't want to watch a strong woman.
No we prefer men😂
Yeah like what feminist scared the writers into total submission? Who is grabbing them by the freaking balls?!?
@@jontaii152disney executives are the ones grabbing their balls, maybe some literally.
@@robin.19Cringe
@@robin.19 you just proved the writer's point, by saying that the reason why you think these movies are bad is because they have female main character.
Regardless, neither misogynist or feminist are right.
It's always the sudden shift from total victimhood to total power that feels forced and doesnt make sense.
The Female Power fantasy. Sympathy and love for being a victim, to absolute power with zero effort. A narcissistic wetdream
It does when you realize the ideology behind it seeks to use victimhood as a means of power.
And with no training, they're just immediately better than everyone at everything.
And it’s so frustrating! It collapses the world that could have been, or that previous movies/books had worked so hard to build
Gotta love the mindset of these iNdEpEnDeNt and eMpOwErEd feminist clowns
I feel like Emily Blunt is really good at picking well written female main protagonists. She did it in Edge of Tomorrow, Sicario and Quiet Place.
Same with Hailee Steinfeld. I noticed that a lot of her roles were on this list.
100% agree. She's amazing. Never seen her in a role that isn't rich in integrity. Brilliant in Sicario.
Glad that her role in Sicario was mentioned, imo she did really great job for first movie but it went underappreciated because character was specifically made to be kinda not likeable
She actually revealed her secret in an interview. If she sees a script that any point refers to her character as a "strong female empowered protagonist," she groans and throws it in the trash.
@@BlazingOwnagerthat was covered in the video lmao. Do you make a habit of commenting on videos without watching them?
3:52 a few friends of mine actually did a presentation on class for this theme, and they used the pictures of a female friend of mine for the test. They used a simple instragram selfie for her, nothing special, and she got like 150 swipes in 2 days. The dude got 0
Vi lost her family twice, grew up in a place where people are regularly beaten up by the police and dragged to prison without a trial, was locked in a cell for about 6 years where she was brutally beaten by guards, had to watch her home turn into a drug infested criminal underworld and she bears a giant burden due to what happened to her sister.
Through out all of this, she didn't loose sight of who she is, stayed loyal to her loved ones and prioritized their well being over hers. As Vander said "You've got a good heart, don't ever loose it."
That's a great character right there.
Yes! I freaking love Vi
Arcane is the perfect counter example to the "audiences are bigots" line. The most primary characters in the show are women (Vi & Jinx) and the only mutually expressed love interest (RIP Sky) in the show is a homosexual relationship.
And yet the show was huge, praised almost across the board. Easily the best show I watched of 2021.
@@zigedelic3909 Jayce and Mel are a Mutually expressed hetero relationship. They even get a sex scene. Not to detract from your point, there are a lot of Strong Women in Arcane: Vi, Sevika, Ambessa (Mel's mother) are all physically strong. But it doesn't sideline the men either: Vander, Jayce, Ekko are also strong men. That's not to mention how stereotypical roles are often reversed: Cait's Mother being the working, strong parent; and her dad being what stereotypically women would be. Silco being physically weak but still, for all his crimes, a loving father (not a good one, big difference).
Note: a lot of what I said comes from a video analysis by a youtuber called Schnee. He makes great stuff.
@@mr.pickle6487 Oh shoot I totally forgot about Jayce and Mel, good catch. Agreed with the rest of your comment too
@@mr.pickle6487 Also schnee is great. I really enjoy his analysis and pacing
I've always loved Mulan 1999. Not specifically because she is female, but because of how much she grew as a character. She went from having a disadvantage and she developed and learned and even found a way for her own upbringing and disguising to become an advantage in the final battle.
It was crazy to me to see Mulan bust out as a superpowered little girl right off the bat like that. It not only doesn't make sense, no kid can relate to that. It went from a tale of childhood struggle to a superhero movie.
@@Nphen So glad I skipped that pile of trash
Mulan was always one of my favourite disney protagonists because I love characters that win via wits and creativity over strength. Hearing that this aspect of her got cut in the live action is really disheartening.
you know kids movies used to be brutal, like what modern kids movie show thousands getting killed or even any
@@einar8019 why should a kids movie show thousands of people dying? what the fuck lmao
Gwen Stacy from the Spider-Verse films is also another well-written female character.
I'm really happy Lord and Miller didn't try to make her some strong badass who's so tough and can handle everything. No, they made a sincere, relatable, sweet and confident character. One whom you can wholeheartedly relate to in her journey and emotional vulnerabilities because of how real of a character she feels. And I freaking appreciate it!
Here is an interesting but a bit useless fact, Vi from Arcane, Gwen Stacy from the Spider-Verse and Kate Bishop from Hawkeye was all played by Hailee Steinfeld.
@@drix012
Lol, yeah that's true. Hailee must have a really good agent.
@@liamphibiashe probably only takes on characters that make actual fucking sense because she knows that’s what she deserves. Good on her.
"confident" is a very bad way to describe Gwen stacy. She is at best outwardly confident but imo compared to most other characters in Spiderverse she is easily among the least actually confident up till the end of the second movie. Her whole journey in the second movie was about coming into her own and not just following along with thats there and easiest. But to also make the hard choices, stick by your values and do whatever it takes to help your friends.
@@liamphibia nah gwen is ass
I watched a breakdown comparing the cave troll fight from Fellowship with the ice troll fight from RoP.
Having not seen RoP for myself, I can't say just how much the editing in the breakdown contributed, but I came away thinking that, if a man were to act that way, he would most certainly either become the villain over the course of the story, or it would be revealed that he had secretly been evil all along.
Toph and Katara were so badass. I loved that they were opposites of each other so they could shine in their own way. Toph as strong skilled young bender who overcomed her disability and never identified as victim still strugling with femine problems as how she looks like and not fiting delicate doughter role her parents put her in.
Katara was firstly arrogant as best (only) bender in her small village, but she grown as person and mage when world humbled her. She had to study and practice to earn her prestige. At the same time she learned how to use her mother like instinct to support everyone instead of being overprotective and aggressive
I love those characters and for me Toph always felt like a character at she‘s already gone through most of her development before the start of the show. She started off as powerful beyond her disability, independent and strongwilled. She was op and could easily have been a Mary Sue but they gave her small character flaws like her inability to ask for help or rely on others that the overcame with the help of her team and that made all the difference.
we care
@detective2221 we care
We care
Good Ending
We care
A character I don't see mentioned enough in this train of thought is Elizabeth Swann from Pirate of the Caribbean. She's courageous and has some team leader spirit, but doesn't know how to hone that, isn't fully physically experienced yet, and is somewhat bound by the expectations and norms for someone raised in English nobility. The cracks start to show at the start of Dead Man's chest, and by the movie's end she's full-blown pirate the moment she leaves Jack for dead with only a sliver of remorse. By continuing to prove herself physically in combat, she eventually comes into her own as the Pirate Queen in At the World's End's finale.
She’s great. Goes from basically property to being the Pirate King and declaring war on what used to be her own people.
true
Very good one indeed.
And I love that despite being able to handle a sword well enough, she never actually won any sword duels with any of the important characters and got absolutely floored by Davy Jones. But most important of all, what makes Elizabeth Swann such an interesting character is the fact that she's human. She has flaws, weakness but also strength and she isn't afraid to show that vulnerability with her relationship with Will Turner. If At World's End were made in the modern day, they would strip all of that away from her and turn her into a one-dimensional, badass do all good all Pirate King who went against the odd to show these misogynistic men that a woman pirate can do anything without the help of another man
Actually very good point there. The first 3 films were amazing.
I think Ridley Scott said, when writing a character that would become Ripley, he didn't write it to be a male or a female. He just wrote the character and then casted the person, he thought was the best fit. And what came out of it is one of the greatest characters in the history of film. I think that says a lot...
That's one of my favorite trivia pieces about that movie too. Better yet, literally everyone was written ambiguously. Just their last names were specific, and their first names were given when the actors took them. I think that's partially why all the characters feel so genuine, because there was no directorial string-pulling or bias.
The original script (starbeast) that was the basis for Alien was by Dan O'bannon and Ronald Shusett and was genderless. You can see the script online and it included the line after the cast list: "The crew is unisex and all parts are interchangeable for men or women." Scott did not write them ambiguously, he simply picked their genders freely (and made great choices) @@brendansage6876
@@brendansage6876 Oh, I didn't know that. But it's not really surprising, because the characters are literally one of the greatest in all of cinema.
This is such a great video! I really like how you included the "already attained virtue but still has to struggle" type of good character in this analysis; that one gets forgotten in critiques sometimes, opening them up to the counterargument like "what about Captain America? Isn't he a Mary Sue, too??" So I really appreciated you differentiating those as well!
Arcane is a master class on how to write characters who EARN an audience's respect, something that is severely lacking in every one of the bad examples you gave. We see Vi get walloped in a street brawl multiple times before she defeats her opponent. It's not her victory that makes us root for her, but the fact that she's tough enough to keep fighting no matter what. We see Powder, then Jinx, struggle through failure after failure, with doubt piled on her by others, before she hones her inventions and becomes essentially a force of nature. We see Caitlyn go through the reverse, where she easily could have lived in luxury her whole life, but she chooses a difficult path because she wants to make a difference in the lives of people who are less fortunate than she is. All three of these female characters are incredibly skilled and powerful in their own ways, but that isn't the reason we love them. We love them because we see them earn it, AND the reasons why they choose to.
🥲👏🏻
And I think Mel is a well-written female character that the audience is SUPPOSED to dislike. It's as if the writers looked at Hollywood's many failures to write a strong female lead and decided to use those tropes for the antithesis to the characters that viewers are supposed to root for.
This show is so good that they even made me root for villains such as Sevika. These characters are just written so well.
Every character on this amazing show was very well written.
Vi and Jayce are my favorites 👍
arcane is a masterpiece
another thing i love about Vi in particular in Arcane, is that she doesn't always win. Even when she does, she gets her shit kicked in. she has to struggle to win, she bleeds. Same with Cait at the very end of Season 1. they don't win, and they suffer or struggle, and each have unique flaws within their personalities.
you should watch blue eyed samurai i feel you would love the female characters. so well written
"a character arc flatter than the state of Kansas" is my new favorite line for summing up my disappointment for poorly written characters lol
Never been there, I'd say flatter than north dakota, which is basically devoid of terrain
Old phrase was also "Flatter than an ironing board" but usually that was for tits. Still applies.
"Flatter than Denmark/Netherlands" also works
so flat earth's curvature literally skips the whole state.
@@DamienDarksidemy tits are flatter than an ironing board 😔
12:22 I think a character arc being about finding one's own worth and value, realising you are enough etc can actually be good, but it still has to follow that fundamental principle of character arcs: they need to *change*. For example, you could have a character who does everything for everyone else, stretching themselves thin by constantly saving others and neglecting their own wellbeing. You could also have a character with terrible self esteem, who constantly underestimates themselves and never tries new things because they assume they'll fail. You could have an unhealthy perfectionist character, who is driven by the insatiable need to constantly get better, who is never satisfied with who they are. All of these characters could have a "finding their own worth/strength/potential" arc, and have it be satisfying and well written, because something changed. There was a problem in their lives, an inner turmoil that is solved through the events of the story.
Hermoine Granger is a good example of a well written female character IMO. She saves Harry and Ron on multiple occasions with her intelligence and sacrificial attitude. That's a strong character to me.
Not to mention those two probably would’ve flunked out of school if she didn’t constantly help them with their homework 😂😂😂
IMO she is great in the books. In the movies, she is a little boring for always being perfect all the time, specially when you compare her to the bufoon that they made out of Ron, so she could look even superior.
Let’s be honest a lot of the writing for specific characters as well as their development sucked in the hp movies. Books were good, but yea
well written character but poorly acted
SPEW
Emily Blunt is a prime example of an actress who consistently plays a fleshed out strong female lead
I can't think of anything I've ever seen her in that I disliked her in. She's such a strong actor.
brother
Just wait until emily sharp starts her career
@@iamfreedman6880 I aint reading all that
@@iamfreedman6880There's a certain sense in your words but from my personal experience it's not exactly like that. A few of my female friends were experienced and talented in areas that you describe as male only (sports, martial arts, etc) and they didn't have any problem whatsoever. Yes, there are physical differences between male and women and it's very difficult to overcome them with sheer effort, but that doesn't mean they can't do it or that it's an offense to the men that did it. If someone wants to do something and has the skill to do it by all means. The problem with modern society is that they want role models that are exactly like them but better without understanding that a role model is the type of person that you want to be regardless of gender
For me the problem begins when the writers want to create "strong female leads." When I hear that I already know it's gonna be bad. I don't want to feel like I'm watching a strong female lead. I just want to watch a character. The minute you put a label on a character you have already doomed yourself
Creating a character using a checkbox of buzzwords never ends well.
I think Emily Blunt actually said the same thing in an interview: When she gets a script and it says "Strong female lead" she just declines it.
Well, that was uhh.. pretty Blunt
@@antalwahlers3574 12:51
Well I love a strong female lead. Sarah Connor, Clarice Starling, the kill Bill bride, etc. But quite often they let a girl play an antisocial, sterotypical toxic masculine prick that's full of herself...
I'm so glad u put edge of tomorrow on the thumbnail. I absolutely love that movie!!
Funny thing is Hollywood nailed the formula for strong female characters decades ago. Look at Princess Leia, Ellen Ripley, Sarah Connor, etc. All strong, all feminine, and most importantly, all well-written. But we all know how much Hollywood values writers, so the likelihood of seeing characters like them in the future is slim.
Nor does it value Orginality, hence why George Lucas initially made Star Wars on his own.
Is that Hange's wall titan fight scene? AoT has it's fair share of quality characters regardless of specifics.
The people running Hollywood don't like that kind of strong women; likely because they want to stroke their egos and claim that their era created the 'strong woman' concept. Or because they're not the 'right' kind of strong that they want.
But they not perfect and the bestest ever they had flaws but todays female characters have to be flawless and better than all male characters. Alpha female beta males. Then you have writers putting themselves into the character.
I wouldn’t say they nailed it, just set the right bones. They left plenty of room for improvement and we’ve gotten far better since then. Not knocks against those characters, just pointing out how in spite of the many failures we see today, there were a great many successes on our way here too, and some of them are among the best characters ever written
Let’s be honest, Mabel from Gravity Falls had a better character Arc than most of these live-action Disney heroines. Katara and Toph? Not even a competition, those two were incredible.
Oh no competition. Those are all time classic well written shows
Ahsoka Tano as well! Way better than that Rey SkYwAlKeR chick. I’m pretty excited for her show
It's ironic that characters from shows for little kids are better written than most modern movies or series.
Katara and Toph were two of my favorite characters all time. they were very well written, and actually had character growth throughout the story, which made them actually worth watching.
Nah, she was hateable too, but for different reasons.
Another problem with Hollywood's extensive usage of this trope is that it inadvertently suggests that traditionally female roles are somehow lesser, and that to be a strong female character you must reject it entirely. Traditionally female roles require just as difficult as traditionally male roles, I think a character that showcases strength in this role is Nani from Lilo and Stitch.
YES! Finally someone said it.
Also Snow white, Her having traditional female roles led to her becoming the leader of the dwarves because she does things that dwarves dont know how to do such as clean and cook.
well said. while I'd argue that society is mostly trying to move past the idea of "roles" and that plays a huge part of discussions around the topic of genders, I do think we have to acknowledge at least some semblance of those roles and their qualities remain for reasons and that's okay. Like you said, being a strong "motherly" figure is still viewed as favorable even though technically a single father raising a child alone could fulfill those qualities
Vi from Arcane is a good example of ignoring roles though. Her character demonstrates PLENTY of traits a vast majority of people would say are masculine in nature but at NO POINT does the show ever feel the need to point that out, not once.
Ironically, turning all heroines into tough, uncaring and steel-nerved brutes signals that a "strong" woman must have "masculine" qualities in order to be invincible. Unavoidably implying that traditionally "feminine" traits are weak or lesser, which is in turn applying a negative connotation to being feminine and thus glorifying masculinity. Which is like, completely distorted from what feminism actually preaches.
This is what happens when you don't sit to think about your story and characters for longer than 10 minutes
Yes! I also want a badass character who enjoys dresses and traditionally feminine stuff. Being "girly" doesn't mean you can't be strong and kick ass. Why do all strong female characters need to be tomboys?
I literally got goosebumps from the 5 second clip of Sam saying he would carry Frodo
I just watched the new Puss n Boots movie yesterday and told my girlfriend exactly this! I said "this is how you write a strong female character!" And she completely agreed with me
That puss n boots movie is fantastic. I strongly recommend it to anyone who hasn’t seen it.
You know what? I'm gonna say it. Kitty Softpaws makes me want to become Shane Dawson
@@familyguysofunny1933 bro calm down
I’ve seen stuff about it and it seems very good. I’ll have to watch it soon
@@familyguysofunny1933 wait why does she make you want to be shane dawson for? I support shane 100 percent to this day btw.
Highlighting the hypocrisy of writers making their female characters abrasive, smug, and arrogant when they abhor such traits in male characters is such a great point and a perfect metric for judging the quality of a character
If your female character were gender swapped with a male character who possesses the same powers, abilities, and traits and said male character would be hated, then it's a pretty strong indication that your female character should justifiably be hated as well. I would still despise Rey is she were a male.
I despise Ridley's acting, which is god-awful. She must have got the gig on her knees; not her acting chops.
Unless you think of it as a whole range of possibilities that are available to explore (even when some of those possibilities suck). So, male characters got to cycle through arrogant, smug, etc (eventually to land on more complex and virtuous developmental arcs), but the shallow zone is off limits to women?
This is the challenge of transitioning from a "dominant culture" (where the standard for "normal" is straight white male) to a more equitable and inclusive one: the unreasonable demand that those who have been marginalized or excluded have instantaneous mastery of the places previously reserved for the privileged class. No glitches, bumps, missteps, or failures allowed. Only total perfection from the get-go.
Ultimately, this perpetuates the status quo "norm" because it allows, "See? You suck. That's why you weren't allowed here in the first place."
Consider the millions of poorly written white male protagonists we have endured. Do you have space and patience enough to let women, people of colour, queer folk, people with disabilities make the same number of mistakes necessary to learn and grow?
Mate stop being dumb its not the negative traits the problem but that they praise these negative traits and reward it when in a women.
@@lousialb8962Wattpad exists for a reason, as does independent publishing etc. If it's for practice, go there.
I've read a lot of trashy books from new authors, some so bad I legitimately don't understand how the author put it together. But ultimately, those books are practice in a hobby or hobby-job, so aside from ignoring the author and series it's none of my business. Don't generally complain or review them, they're ultimately the works of individuals with limited time/skills.
Larger productions on the other hand have the ability to go through multiple edits and reviews, adjustments and rewrites. Storyboarding and meetings to determine characterization. If the team either do not self reflect or ignore criticism, that's on them.
Most of the worst protagonists I've read are straight (or bi), white, and male. There are a couple exceptions, but overall the above is true. Quantity and all that. Mary/Gary sues were equal for awhile in my experience, though the lower barrier to publishing has let Gary's take the lead. But queer/feminine writers have been some of the most acclaimed and influential authors for actual centuries. Don't pretend that queer/feminine authors are new at this, they're not. What they have is now a lower, more tolerant, and accessible barrier to entry. This allows for more of their 'bad' writing to enter the public sphere. If it's from an independent author, move on and ignore the author. Small team? Same applies. Hollywood productions? I personally don't care much, but at that point there's too many routes to improve your writing to have excuse.
The arts have long held more of repressed demographics, being from one is not an excuse for bad art.
@@lousialb8962 And maybe if they (the writers) were humble about how they failed horrible things didnt get that much out of hand, but no, when people criticize they characters all the fault is on the audience because they are clearly sexist white supremacist that want to keep the patriarchy.
The problem went out of hand when they refused to learn and keep pushing again and again with the same characters with the same problems, after all, as the video said there are examples of strong women in recent films that were very well liked (Arcane is a good example).
I really liked your remark on the lost boys, you hit the nail on the head, these writers don't read, the writers of "She Hulk" admitted they didn't read the comics, and even worse, the writers of "The Witcher" openly mocked the books, so how do you expect these people to write a good story ?
In the Generation where every Writer is like M Night Shyamalan to Avatar the Last Air Bender... I heard he had a different presentation to the Creator and Writers. Then he Changed it ALL UP for His Little Girl, giving a Different Movie.
Ironically, the Snowman Olaf in Frozen was originally not part of the script, too. That too was put to please their Daughter -- Producer, iirc [or Director]. To be honest, I like Frozen without Olaf. Olaf's character felt too forced in the story to literally be a visual representation of her youth.
@@Mary-Ann_B_Mabaet Besides, they so easily gloss over the fact that she is creating sentient life with a whiff of the hand. That has enormous repercussions.
Yeah, the She-Hulk writers clearly didn't read the comics. I especially knew that when they had Jennifer tell Bruce that her life was worse than his. Her life is paradise compared to Banner's. What did she say she had to deal with? Catcalling? What has Banner dealt with? Being abused by his father and seeing him murder his mother, being constantly hunted by the military, and he admitted to trying to commit suicide in the MCU.
God, I was legit banging my head against a wall because of the Witcher. Nobody gave a f*** about the source material, be it the books or the game. They just transformed Geralt into a sidekick who occasionally makes some noise instead of having actual lines. Yen is suddenly a mother figure for Ciri after literally trading her in to get back her powers and Ciri doesn't have any real character development. She isn't able to make any use of her magical powers and the physical training with Geralt didn't pay off as it should. They made her into a total victim for Yen to save and protect then threw to our face the "Geralt isn't capable enough to be her father/witcher trainer/guardian".
They also got paid for this!!! RIP
The writers of She-Hulk also couldn't write courthouse scenes. Which is a bad thing on its own, but becomes absurd when your character is a lawyer.
I mean, sure, one can't be an expert of anything, but they could have done something like how House MD had an actual doctor as consultant so that the writers would ask him if they were writing something inaccurate or bad.
My question is, why is the creators of Arcane know more about character development than people like Disney and Marvel who do this regularly.
Because it was written by two (2) people that actually care and wanted to do the best job they could.
As a side note, a show about a lawyer that has to deal with the messes caused by superheroes, only to have those powers pushed upon her and learning how to deal with two different worlds (maybe seeing events through both lenses), would actually make a pretty interesting show. It just has to be written well.
I thought the first few episodes of She-Hulk were fine but then it just got into more... Cringe humor? Not a fan of that but it was alright show 6.5/10.
@@mrcaterpillow9926 I agree. The beginning of the show was good but then it got worse. Every episode at the end of the show, except the episode with daredevil, was bad.
@@ruzgarelci My main issue is the fact they didn't really hold onto the whole lawyer thing and turned it into a bit of a joke. I think they lost so much potential there, it could have been a really good character arc and such for Jen.
Will say, I hated how people represented the first couple of episodes. Like when she throws the boulder further than Banner and people were like, "OMG THEY SRE TRYING TO SAY SHE IS STRONGER AND JUNK BLAH BLAH BLAH" then completely forget Banner fucking incinerates a boulder by throwing it, immediately after. Even the scene when she is saying how she handles anger better and peopled jumped on that but like she was lying, she definitely doesn't have a good control on it because she turned! It's ridiculous .
@@mrcaterpillow9926saying that she suffered more because of cat calling when her cousin tried to kill himself now that is truly ridiculous
@@mrcaterpillow9926 It's a shame. Orphan Black was awesome.
Let’s give Elizabeth Swann a shoutout too. She’s fine and not lazily written. Also adapted to her environment in a realistic way
Shout out to Keira Knightley as well, for nailing that shit flawlessly.
Shoutout to the bride.
Legit was thinking of her when I saw the title and thumbnail
That one scene in Dead Man's Chest still gets a big chuckle out of me, how she is just so done with the boys' crap and even tries to play the frail damsel to get those chucklefucks to stop fighting for one bloody minute. I can feel her frustration every time XDXDXDXDXD
I did enjoy those movies :)
Hailee Steinfield also showed up twice in your list, she's the voice of Vi. She also voiced Gwen Stacy in the Spiderverse movies, seems like she's picking up some really good roles as well!
Three times actually
She was good in Bumblebee as well.
@@Xhanx11 Audiences hate Bad-Writing AND WE CAN SHOW THAT to the world.
We just have to support the currrent Trend-Wave of 'Big Criticism-Essays' like what Madvocate did to The-Flash, Jay Exci did to Doctor-Who,
Mauler did to Doctor-Strange, Hbomberguy did to both Sherlock Holmes and RWBY, and what Some-More-News does to Real Life!!
@@loturzelrestaurant The newest doctor strange is not guilty of this. Scarlet Witch is an incredibly powerful character. Always has been. If anything its everything around Scarlet Witch that is poorly written.
@@godturkey4098 Incredibly powerful is nice and all but shes also badly written in that film, so you arent really making a Point here. Her Power in that movie is incosistent and yeah: why not? Why wouldnt she been included if anything 'around her' as you phrase it is 'badly written'. Duh: Shes also badly written.
Yes! Yes! Yes! Thank you for articulating this point so well!
To summarize: what makes characters interesting is their flaws and how relatable they are, not how perfect they are.
which is why we should be hating on 80s action movies more. die hard works because mcclane is in way over is head, doing what he’s doing because someone has to. similarly, terminator 2 works because the T800 is more than just a badass machine - it’s a shield for the other two protagonists who are both in much greater danger and act as our emotional centrepieces for the story. even predator, which looks like one of the most generic action movies of it’s time, makes dutch a great protagonist simply by giving him an adversary almost infinitely stronger than he is, forcing him to change his outlook on combat. and, since everyone else has already spoken on it, I don’t even need to mention why ripley is one of the best protagonists in all sci fi.
the problem with the 80s action hero is best exemplified in john rambo. in first blood, he’s amazing - a fantastically written character that serves as a genuinely sympathetic hero, a badass who earns his coolness, and a means of making a point about the horrors of war. and then every other film in the franchise shits all over that by making him nothing more than a buff machine gun toting killing machine. such a protagonist works in a video game (see doom) but not a movie. and this model of protagonist infected so many other films of the time - commando, demolition man, any and all steven seagal films, pretty much any chuck norris film, conan the barbarian, flash gordon, etcetera etcetera. these films are horribly written and deserve all the retrospective shit we give to disney’s recent output. they’re just as bad.
So what you’re saying is that we’re in the 80s culturally again and that’s why media has gone to shit.
@@atomictoaster8013i completely disagree with you. What disney does is so much worse than what lets use steven segall movies does. Disney pushes agendas in a cribgy way and does it so poorly that if anything it just has the opposite affect and they also are completely ruining the entire movie industry by doing absolutely nothing other than remakes. Steven segall made crappy action movies that are fun to watch... Thats it and they're even original (comapred to remakes) with funny moments
@@atomictoaster8013 I don't quite understand what connection you're trying to make. The other Rambo movies from what I remember still have a focus on his mental issues as well as requiring him to use cunning to outsmart his enemies. The mental part can get pushed aside but the creativity in how he attacks is still there.
Are you complaining he doesn't have a training arc in those movies? That he isn't only fighting defensively? His expertise is already established with previous movies, he needs to have different struggles that can't be dealt with purely through strength or skill, in which cunning is the best way to show him overcoming those struggles.
It sounds like you just don't like action movies, which is fair, but you're misrepresenting why you don't like them to try and defend Disney.
Rambo was a war hero with ptsd. Modern Disney characters are trying to be faultless.
Not all movies are character driven. Some are action driven. The Steven Segall movies are action driven. His movies are not about character arc.
The animated Mulan is the best disney princess.
The live action Mulan is a fraud.
Live action Mulan is so confusing. They literally had the ultimate awesome female lead, but apparently she needs superpowers now???
The 2020 live action Mulan is a fraud, not the 2009 one.
@@RedCommunistDragon Yeah that one was a good film as well.
Why... is Mulan a princess? I don't think she is XD
@@eliaspeter7689 I don't either but she's considered one. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Toph and katara from ATLA. In the very first episode katara lacks confidence because her waterbending skills arent very good, and she's traumatized by the loss of her mother. Over the course of the series she not only hones her skills to become one of the best waterbenders and healers in the world, but also learns to look past her prejudice towards the fire nation after zuko joins the team.
Toph is an interesting one because she's very quickly established as one of the most capable characters in the group, despite her parents attempts to keep her hidden from the world for fear of her blindness. Her struggle doesnt come in the form of mastering her powers, her struggle is in learning how to have meaningful relationships with others. Like she says before running away from home, "I've never had any real friends"
You missed the parts where Sokka was sexist to Katara in the first episode. Pakku also refused training Katara solely because it wasn't customary for a woman to battle, but to stay in healing huts. Those too are added struggles to her character (especially the Pakku ordeal, since she absolutely needed a competent trainer at that time).
I just love how sassy Toph is. She's like a chipmunk
Katara even got angry, why do we forgive katara for being angry at the injustice.
But why is there other types of "righteous anger" that feels so bad...
Maybe because it's not truly righteous, it's tyrannical anger
Meanwhile Korra: masters 3 elements because why not, masters air using her emotions (it's the OPPOSITE of what she shall be doing), THEN struggles a lot and manages to defeat everyone only because she's Mary Sue and has friends.
@@victortolstov5175 how is she Mary Sue? She's not liked by everyone.
Watched video, subbed immediately. Clear, concise and very enjoyable watch!
Toph is one of the best example of how to write a "girl boss" that is likeable and overpowered. She is funny, emotional, vulnerable, powerful and easy to root for.
I love the contrast of her introduction to the series where she destroys a bunch of "men" at there own game to only be beaten by the least manly person ie aang. Seeing how this upset her and showed the audiences although she is powerful she can still lose, and we get ad an audience get to explore her arc as a character, not as "gotcha" one off moment.
I love Toph so much.
The last airbender serie is a gem. Every child should see this serie at least once in their life.
Of course they love her. She is a secondary character and not the main character.
@@brayancanon6665 Nah man Avatar The Last Airbender has a crazy good cast of characters, and Aang is far from being a masculine chad hero.
Say they made a series to follow Toph on her escapades after the end of Aang's story. I think alot of people would wanna see that.
@@brayancanon6665 just like Vi from Arcane is a secondary character right? Cold take. You literally sat through the entire explanation of why its not the female characters people hate, its the way a lot of hollywood writers write characters that we hate and you still don't get it.
"Write characters to tell a story, not to make a point"
That is one great line. It should be on posters all over Hollywood.
agreed, however that is NOT to say that a story cannot also make a point. its important to not accidently swing all the way over to the other extreme
@@iroden5335if you make a good story, you’re gonna have a good point. Think of any good story and ask what the overarching themes and ideals is and you’ll find it
Write characters to tell a story, and write the story to make a point. You (usually) can’t skip the middleman there without sacrificing something in the quality of the writing. It’s fine to make points, though. Even political ones. But all of this must be well written in order for the audience to be receptive to it.
the most importance thing make someone be successful thing is balance. Balance is the most key important thing that what make someone be successful. Overlying one side had worse side affect and had terrible end result if continued.
@@OwO377 well said bro.
“Never underestimate your audience. They’re generally sensitive, intelligent people who respond positively to quality entertainment.”
Is that a Stargate quote?
Your audience is your audience. They will understand what you give them and why because they are supposed to. God forbid you insult them.
@@Zahlenteufel1 yep, which has several powerful female characters that compliment the script and actually, unexpectedly, did a half decent job on the Bechdel Test without pandering to its audience. Now it’s far from perfect, but for a show from 1997 it didn’t do half bad.
8:43 you just perfectly, describe the plot of persona 5 and why I love it so much
People don’t hate strong and independent women they hate “I AM A STRONG AND INDEPENDENT WOMAN”
NO.
Why would i hate a strong and independent women? What harm does thag cause us lol.
We hate women who belittles other just to prove that they are better.
quite right. a good writer does not TELL US that the character is such and such, they SHOW US. but that takes effort to create situations that shows us the character being whatever it is they want us to see; and preaching fanatics are as a rule in too much of a hurry to do this
@@onceamusician5408I present Princess Leia. No need for labeling her as a badass, she simply was a badass, and everybody saw it.
you could not be more right
True!!! It's same as screaming "I'm an Alpha male"
Sophie in Howls moving castle always struck me as the embodiment of a strong independent woman cuz despite all the crap she put up with. She was still kind and empathetic towards others and influenced them to be better.
Yes, she's one I thought of when watching this video. Even better, she was old and unattractive, so she wasn't trying to flirt her way through the story either. Which is something else that poorly written female characters do.
Book Sophie is a damn powerhouse! Film Sophie is a squeaky dormouse - Miyazaki absolutely gutted her character (and Howl too!)
@soylentlyso3219 Guess I'll have to go back and watch the movie again. I have read the book and seen the movie, and I didn't notice that big of a difference in how Sophie was portrayed, but there was a big time gap between seeing the movie and reading the book so maybe I didn't notice.
There are many examples in Older anime where you get characters done right.
Love this movie and character. Great point.
As an animation student that wants to be involved in film making. “Write characters to tell a story and not to prove a point” is something im going to drill into my head.
The hardest thing to do that has the best results is when you write characters with personalities and you stick them in a situation and they behave according to their personality to deal with the situation.
Most stories just have characters do what the author wants while ignoring their personality. A characters personality did only change as a result of events in the story where for better or worse.
What makes this tough is that you as an author may want something specific to happen, some scene you have in mind, but if it doesn't fit the personality you have to scrap it. If you don't, people can tell they broke character.
Sadly badly written characters and stories make up so least 99% of the content out there.
Please do. Good character building is becoming an abandoned art.😢
That’s good but also be ready for other people trying to corrupt it so be ready to fight for what you believe in
Yes and no. Most great art pieces were made to prove a point (Fankenstein, Moby Dick, El Quijote, Les Misérables, and countless other examples). They just didn't considered the point was enough. If you just care about the point, make an essay. But most of the most important stories do have a point to make, and it's what makes them great.
@@asier_getxo Valid, but your response was a prime example of missing the point.
Nothing in the original comment mentioned "important stories don't have a point to make". The quote was "Write characters to tell a story and not to prove a point”, not "write a story". It's the smaller part of the story: the characters.
6:41 'Vin and Powder'
Well hey, Vin is another great female lead from Mistborn
My soul cringed
"Create characters to tell a story, not to prove a point." Very well said
I'd change that to "say what you want to say through the story and the characters", since every story is trying to prove some point, promote or reinforce some idea.
Hopefully it's a good point/idea, a good message, but that can still can fail horribly if the execution isn't done right.
@giannixx Not really, most stories are made to entertain and provoke emotions and don't try to prove anything. And even if they have some message to tell it's normally hidden so well that the audience isn't annoyed by it.
Unless the point you are trying to prove is that I can write a great character, even some of the best, then yeah, prove away.
Arcane had the best modern strong female characters in any other medium so far imo. Everyone was just so well written. Vi and Jinx are my personal favorites.
Vi is strong, competent and courageous, but she’s so likable, charismatic and caring.
Jinx is so complex in a good way and they portrayed madness in the best way possible (I’m looking at you, GOT).
I seriously love Arcane. Such a good show, animated or live-action.
While I love those two, I actually think Mel is the best. She’s a smart, cunning woman in a position of high power. In many stories her beauty would be painted as a “stepping stone” she used to gain that power, but we see any of that
The best part is that it didn't feel the need to make other characters worse just to highlight that these women are good.
Vi and Mel are strong female characters without losing their vulnerabilities making them real characters with internal and external struggles instead of perfected super beings that were seemingly created by computer. That makes these characters so lively and relateable, not only for women but every other person aswell.
idk I like Jolyne better
They all are well written. I can't find any reason not to like male and female in arcane. Vi, jinx, mel, victor, sevika, jaice, eko some of the best in my list. And my favorite one is silco the best amongst all. He just absolutely perfect.
Calling fans sexist or racist because they dont like your art is simply a coping mechanism by talentless hacks to protect their fragile egos.
All of it just fits their agenda
I like the example I heard between the ghost busters reboot, and the more genuine 3rd. Bith actually had primary female leads. However in the more recent one, they felt more meshed in the story. They just happened to be female.
@@derekeuchner1800 yeah i like afterlife more, because its actually fun
@@derekeuchner1800 Totally agree, the Afterlife movie was a great movie and it 'felt' like a Ghostbusters movie that just happened to have a female lead. The all female reboot was just not a good movie in my opinion, nothing against the actors as people like Kate McKinnon are great in SNL and have been in other roles, but the movie was just not great. Added to this, in the original ghostbusters Janine was a hard-ass who kept the men in line....in the reboot Helmsworth's character was an idiot.
They _could_ be those things, but then it's still necessary to consider their criticisms and their potential strengths/weaknesses.
Oh, my gosh. This is spot on! You articulated an idea that I have believed since The Force Awakens came to theaters - and in much more eloquent and thorough terms. As a woman myself, I don’t care about being “empowered” or “represented” the way Disney believes I do. I just want to see a good story! It feels almost like that’s too much to ask at this point. The company of Disney has become a greedy shell of what it once was, and while there are much more important things in this life than movies and Tv, these modes of entertainment still affect the culture. If you are going to be an organization that influences people, you should at least try to do it in a good and wholesome way.
Haile Steinfield definitely has some of the best well written female leads in her projects
( Vi , Kate , Gwen, etc)
Nobody knows who she is, what her projects are or the characters you listed off.
@@mikeawesome9212 wrong
@@mikeawesome9212 Nobody knows, because you don't know? Did you not realize that she, and two of those characters (and projects), were very heavily highlighted in this UA-cam-video?
@@mikeawesome9212 nobody knows Gwen Stacy?
@@mikeawesome9212
"Nobody knows..." ❌️
" I don't know..."✔️
Katniss Everdeen is another example of a well written female protagonist. She's talented with the bow at the start, but we learn she had to be to hunt for food to feed her family. She didn't just pick up a bow one day and oh look she hits a bullseye every time. In the arena she makes mistakes, she gets physically hurt either by her own decisions or the other children succeed in their attacks against her. She feels emotional pain constantly. When she becomes the Mockingjay we know she's just being used. She's a figurehead. Other people, including men, are just as competent or even more than her. Their talents shine through. She needs and gets their help. She doesn't do everything by herself defeating everyone invincible without a scratch.
I watched the first movie last week, for the first time in ten years or so, and legitimately thought the same exact thing.
To be completely honest, I was somewhat hesitant, because I remembered really liking the books and films as a teenager, but didn't have a vivid memory of the movie. Scarred by the garbage that is mass-produced nowadays, I thought: "I probably just liked it back then because I hadn't seen as much of this "empowering" crap, and the action was cool."
But, lo and behold, the story is really good. Katniss's abilities make complete sense, aren't overdone to a ridiculous degree (despite this even being a young adult story, where teens, regardless of gender, are often wildly OP, she actually MISSES SHOTS - incredible), she is not stupidly strong for her size or anything like that, just has a tough personality. And her quiet, somewhat stoic, stand-off-ish character and disgust regarding the system, cool as they may be, actually get her in trouble sometimes, because the games are a TV show, and being charismatic gets you sponsors.
As a guy who, by modern standards, apparently hates women - I thoroughly enjoyed rewatching this film about a compelling character... who just so happens to be a girl.
No I didnt like the hunger games movie. Its a typical movie for teens, its not even PG-13. The content is so tame compared to better movies like battle royale and so forth
@@leob4403oh man battle royal was a masterpiece, goddamn I should rewatch it again.
I'll recommend you guys to read the books
Hunger games sucked ass
Ellen Ripley is a great example of a perfectly written female lead. Love the Alien franchise.
Ellen Ripley was a man in the script and they just changed the name to Ellen Ripley and changed not a line. So you want a man in drag, really.
@@princeedwards10 So don't make a great female character, make a great character that happens to be female?
You still don't get it.
Was about to comment about Ripley. She was awesome!
@princeedwards10 what people don't realise for aliens most of the new characters like vasquez was written with only a last name until they cast someone. The actress came in with high heels and a full dress and got the role. again just great writing
@PaulKMF1 I get it. Make no references to her femininity and she is a great character who happens to be female, right? Except Captain Marvel, Rey, Ms. Marvel, Shari, Echo and all the supposed 'woke' characters don't really make reference to their womanness as a central attribute and still get lambasted as 'message characters.' It's the disingenuous cry of a group that fears it is being left behind.
You nailed this analysis sir! Well done! Totally agree. Give us WELL WRITTEN characters and we'll show up for it!
This video explained all my frustrations so well. I love the fact that you used arcane as an example because that show really understood what it meant to write women. With Vi's character, they did such a great job of not keeping the stereotype of a "strong macho woman" that doesn't have any agency and needs to be "independent". While she is strong and can take care of herself she's also a big softie and takes care of her loved ones all while still needing some support not because she's weak as a character but because she's human.
I love that Vi want's to be like Vander.. the old and the new.. and in her own way she is. It never matters in the story her gender or sexual orientation nor any of these dumb new "empowerment" agendas... she's just Vi, failing, growing, taking decitions that may end up poorly but she choses to keep moving and trying her best to get her family back. Damn what a great show.. and let's not forget about Mel, Ambessa, Sevika.. a wide spectrum of how to portray power, loyalty, ambition.
Its insane that Hollywood cant write strong feminine characters anymore. Like femininity is a weakness in itself and you can't be strong and feminine at the same time. According to the idiots at Hollywood of course. Me who had a loving and strong mother knows exactly how strong a feminine woman can be.
Saving the phrase "not weak as a charger, but weak as a human" for later.
I think it's because the writers told us to love the characters instead of showing us why these characters deserve our love
You didn't explain what you mean most thoroughly, but I think I know whatcha thinking... and if I'm right, you are right. 😆
red john
What do you mean the writers told us to love the characters? How can a writer force audiences to do something? Just a weird way to describe that
@@rw5622 how is it hard to understand? The writers can easily "tell you" to like a character by: making everyone around the character love them from the get-go, making the character virtuous and having nearly zero flaws right off the bat. Like did u watch the video? Many of the characters mentioned don't earn our love
@@rw5622never heard of “show not tell” in writing? That’s exactly what it is
Mulan is the one of best female heroes by my opinion. Her point was not to prove to anyone that she is a strong - she wanted to help her country, to help her family and father. Even she was weak, she trained hard for stay in the army and became stronger and inspired other teammates to study and practice more.
not her live action version tho lol
@@quemuraa I know, I JUST watched the video.
Yeah I mean the entire country in that time period was incredibly sexist so for her to be able to prove her value despite almost being executed for her treachery and STILL choosing to save her country despite it almost killing her… such a great story
That, and the reason Mulan had to do the things she did was because of the fact she was female, the challenges she faced with physique and social constructs was because of what hun era china believed of women.
Her gender was an integral part of the movie, it actually mattered and added to the story that she is female.
In most cases, I believe that it would be ideal to write a character's personality and traits before deciding their gender based on something like a coin flip. Mulan is one of the exceptions to this, as her being a woman is a crucial part of her story.
I like your point about strong characters still finding that they are not enough, yet can still do incredible things. No doubt, this is an extremely important outlook to carry throughout life -- that even I, weak though I may be, can do things to tilt the world toward good.
I honestly love how Toph and Katara were handled. Toph is presented as a "one of the boys" character and that she's tough. But Katara contrasts that a bit; Katara isn't traditionally feminine but she's not also as "one of the boys" as Toph is, and I love their bit in The Tales Of Ba Sing Se because Katara is giving Toph something she never had; an actual friend who she can go out and be girly with. And still this doesn't change Toph's attitude much, just helps explore here character to a much deeper level
honestly, i always forget every part about tales of ba sing se except that irohs story crushes your heart, and a zoo gets made
"Ya'll hate on Rey just because she's a strong woman"
Meanwhile Ahsoka, Leia and Padme are some of the most beloved and iconic characters in Star Wars history
the character has no depth. Ashoka went through growth if you are a fan of star wars you would know Ashoka didn’t become powerful over night same with leia and padme. Rey is more like an Isaiki protagonist, such a dry character only kills this beautiful story
We got to see Ashoka grow up and become a great character, she had talent but was rough around the edges when first introduced but went on to become a legend after years of work. They wanted Rey to be all of that in 1 hour with no back story other then "Surprise she got palpatine blood" 😒
@@Xenphos Exactly bro
I wouldn't say Rey in the first movie fits entirely into this category; she lives and works alone, she doesn't know what's happened to her parents, she only gradually discovers her powers and she faces terrifying situations while she's doing so, and she only finally accepts her situation in the final battle with Darth Vader jr (I forget his name). Even then she continues to believe that Luke is her destiny, rather than she being his.
After that, of course, her character becomes a cypher.
Padme?!
You millennial prequel apologists need some counseling, lol.
A lot of strong female characters seem to be written with the express purpose of trying to show that women are better or equal to men in all things. I think this is what I really dislike about this character type. Male characters get to just exist and we see them develop where as strong women exist in relation to thwarting men's expectations. It's boring, they're boring and the struggle while real doesn't need to be a central theme in all strong woman content. The great thing about men and women is we're built different we handle situations differently which makes for interesting viewing. I love seeing people play to/discover their strengths as well as being held up by their legit weaknesses.
These "strong female characters" also tend to embody everything the lefter leaning people claim to be toxically masculine too. Theyre abrasive to the point of aggression, rude, snarky, arrogant etc.
In general, even without those toxic traits, they seem to do their best to make the female leads more stereotypically masculine, as if that somehow equates to strength. Men can lift a bigger rock and punch harder, sure, but thats hardly the only type of strength. Mulan is the perfect example. She was physically weaker and inexperienced compared to the men, but overcame that through wit, intelligence, and sheer will.
Tbh in general i dont think femininity is well accepted in modern society, and i have no idea how we got to that place.
bad written too
@declancampbell1277 A good example is Homelander and every fan of the boys hates homlander to death
The gist of this whole trend is that women can bench press 1000lbs so long as they believe in themselves. Also they must make a point of humiliating their male competitors who can never measure up since this whole "power comes from believing in yourself rather than hard work" thing only applies to females apparently.
Me as a man i dont hate powerful women. I hate it when in movies it is frantically shown that she is better than men. I think thats a wrong way of giving women a screen
I don't know if you have seen Better Call Saul. But Kim Wexler is the best female lead I've seen ever. All of her merits were earned and she feels so real
I think he either mentioned her or showed a clip of her. Great Character!
“You are not enough. But you still can do great things.” I really love that. Great video.
That is such a good quote to describe humanity! It makes me think of a quote from Isaac Newton "If I have seen further than anyone else, it is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants"
So true. A female 1 v 1 a man and she does not have supper powers is going to lose even with defense training. The first thing they tell you in defense training is get ready to run because it is all about getting the surprised hit in and then running like hell. That said there are male 1 v 1 monsters that should not have a chance to win either let alone the 1 v 3 or more and winning. If you watch these you will see 1 man fighting 1 man and the others just circling and coming in when the one is finished. If there are 3 or more you are going to lose.
You’re absolutely right: the criticism isn’t of strong women but of terrible writing. The intensity of the stupidity, incompetence and total wrong-headedness of the studio bosses who keep pushing this offensive drivel continues to astonish. Why any board interested in profits and stability would continue to support them is a mystery.
The onslaught of badly written, entitled, obnoxious Mary Sues trashing all men is NOT supportive of strong women. It shows how little the people behind this understand what a strong woman is - none of these new characters are believable strong women - and how little they care that their presumed audience despises what they produce. It’s not only self-destructive for the studios, it’s insulting both to the legacy characters and to the audience. I hate the idea of young girls seeing this twisted garbage with the message that it is how strong women should act.
I feel like one of the best strong female and strong male characters were portrayed in The Black Panther - the female characters have flaws, talents, emotions, determination, love, the need to fight and protect and the male characters have a vulnerable side that they show sooner or later, they make mistakes, learn, show selflessness and support, show appreciation and even emotions which is pretty rare to see in bigger movies. One of my favorite movies to watch just because of the writing of characters
It's a reasonable assumption that it is the female executives of these companies that are pushing these character types. It's a reflection of themselves.
Not much point in pointing it out though because they already know that. No honest person genuinely believes that if you love the original Mulan but dislike the remake then you're a misogynist.
Do they think women like it just because it has a women lead? Not the case for anyone I know, but then again, I can't speak for everyone.
@@StimParavane: close! It’s a reflection of what they want to be. Shows a sickness.
The biggest disappointment about Galadriel is that she hardly uses magic, even though she is a sorceress who is only surpassed in the arcane arts by Sauron.
Yeah, it seems the writers of these things think the only possible way to be a strong character is by being a badass warrior. There couldn't possible be another way to be strong and competent
@@rodgerlang884 Its because it looks spectacular. They have no way to properly show sorcery, or at least it wouldnt be as pictoresque. Most movies just go the "melee character" root because its easier to retain attention through stunts and coreographed fights than a well and properly written story.
@@kurai8437 Look at how Dragonball Z did their beam struggles. That was a clear way of showing who was stronger without punching.
@@crapparc And it was one of the most boring aspects of DBZ XD Also I was not praising the stunt based fighting.
@@kurai8437 DnD made it clear magic is powerfull and can be used in great movie scenes. But the budget might not be the same and the writers have to actually think during their work.
I don't know if a female hero finding her inner strength is a bad thing full stop. I think Disney however does a really bad job at telling that kind of story. For a story like that to work I would say the female hero needs to be put in situations that push her to her absolute limits, forcing her to find a strength/will power that she didn't believe she had. The problem that you pointed out so well is that, Disney doesn't make them WORK for it! The work and the struggle are key to any hero's story! She can have inner strength but she or any character male or female need to work and struggle to find themselves! That's always been a key part of the hero's journey! Great video!
P.S. This isn't to say that i disagree with your point about them saying "your perfect as you are". There's no story if that's true. I'm only saying I think she can hold all the power within her already but she has to be made to work/learn how to access it and or control it. There has to be a struggle.
Agreed, the actual problem with "strong female characters" nowadays is that the media thinks that people want to see female characters that were born badass when neither male nor female audiences want that.
Everyone likes and admires characters that had to work hard, struggle and evolve to become strong and proving themselves, no matter if they're a male or female character, and it's a shame that writing in media is so political in every sense, whether it's about gender, sexuality or race to the point where characters are more like caricatures with only one personality trait that is directly tied to one of those political themes and it sucks.
This is why audiences *LOVED* _Arcane: League of Legends_ . Not only the spectacular animation, but amazingly strong and well-written female characters we actually _care_ about. That's something that is sorely missing in recent Disney movies and several Disney TV shows.
for real
Yeah I've only ever heard good things about arcane so im gonna watch it soon
@@primary2630 i watched it for the first time a couple weeks ago
highly recommend
@@primary2630when you're finished the series, check out Schnee's video essays on its characters, they're amazing.
@@primary2630 Viktor and Silco are og fr, fr
Viktor is the love of my life, and so it will be yours
to see him fall in the next season will be... perfection
This is easily the best take on why the trend of "powerful female characters" is bad.
It's not because they're women. It's because they're _lazily-written_ women.
*Lazily-written characters*
@@Caramelwhiteout Lazily-written characters that just so happen to be women
Incompetently written characters.
@@Leptospirosi Incompetently written characters that only exist and are forced because the people behind those productions are afraid to be seen a certain way and are appealing to the modern demographic. Don't misinterpret their laziness as anything less than deceitfulness, because that's what it is.
I've seen it before as "Don't write _female_ characters, write female _characters_ "
Toph is one of the most likeable avatar characters. Even when katara and aang and even sokka were main characters.. everyone likes toph due to her personality and her way of adapting.
toph entire arc was that yes, she is capable and powerful, yet she is not enough alone.
@@thorin1045 Exactly! I don't mind female characters strong from the start, but she has to have a flaw! On top of having flaws, she's also not a know-it-all. She contributes, she kicks ass, but she also needs help once in a while, it's perfect.
While she knows she's strong and talented, Toph actually still feel insecure about her blindness and experience, which is why she acting rude to hide that side from others.
I mean to compare bad character writings, those "girl boss" are harsh and bossy because they think they're strong and right (which the story support that). Toph acting like that because she knows how "weak" she actually is and trying to hide her feeling like immature kid.
She's also funny. I love her.
Toph has moments where she isn’t strong. We are allowed to see her flaws and her fears, and they are incorporated into her character in a way that makes her feel fleshed out and complex. Often her traits can be a positive AND a negative.
I think that tends to be a better way to write characters: you can have a character that’s a know-it-all, but that trait can also really hinder them as much as it helps. I really liked the concept of One Punch Man because you have an overpowered protagonist and that’s actually THE PROBLEM. Too many overpowered characters have little to no repercussions for their power 🤷♀️.
Eeeh. Hawkeye show mentioned! I really enjoyed that our female kid sidekick actually had to flub up a few times to gain experience first! Her journey actually felt earned and it remained respectful to Hawkeye to have him remain the experienced mentor.
I am really glad that someone actually acknowledged Kate and her struggles, out of all the new heros in MCU, she had the best development imo.
right? I was so upset that ppl who hadn't watched Hawkeye were criticizing it so much. Is marvel flopping right now? Yes. But Hawkeye was prob my favorite series marvel has done. Kate was awesome
@@chairn_tHawkeye was a "marvel" series that exceed my expectation.
right? I loved it
No one would expect that out of all the new heroes, the rich already talented girl would be the one with the best development and actual charisma, they really did a good job with her.
fr. for the 20 ppl that watched it, Hawkeye was good
Emily Blunt perfectly encapsulates what a female lead role should be. From a Quiet Place to Sicario, etc
Sicario. Yes, another brilliant film with her taking the lead. She really has done a lot of amazing roles. The TV series 'The English' is another one. Its almost a pulp fiction western.
Linda Halmilton in Terminator! Ripley in Aliens!
Emily Blunt has been pretty open about tossing out any script that specifies "Strong female lead" because it's a shit concept that doesn't generally lead to a good script.
she also has the best surname in the world. Hope she one day has a daughter and calls her mary jane xD
Exactly, as few lines as possible, perfect for any female lead
I agree with this video. My mom and I went to see Wonder Woman (the first movie), and we really enjoyed it. That was because she HAD to learn how to be a hero. Despite her powers, her bigger weakness was her naivity, she thought that defeating Ares will fix everything in the world and she learned that humans were more complex. She had to walk the path of the hero to became one. THAT is what makes her more relatable and, ironically, human. Others female caracters lack of these caracteristics and at the end become supeflous and anoying.
I completely agree. I absolutely loved the first Wonder Woman, because while the antagonist wasn't all that great, the protagonist had a believable and inspiring journey, of seeing being able to see the imperfections of the world, and yet coming to understand that despite this, there were those still worth fighting for. She got to see that people have good and evil, but that they AREN'T good and evil, in that most don't fit perfectly into one category or the other. On the one hand, there were plenty of flaws in the "good" men fighting for the allies, such as the mysoginy of the brass, and the imprefections of Steve Trevor and his team of saboteurs, spies and assassins, as well as the fragily and very human pain of the "evil" characters, such as the scientist's terror at Wonder Woman and her scars implying a painful past. The fact that Wonder Woman is almost tempted by Ares into murder, and that she is able to defeat him only after changing her binary perception of the world, is what makes her a great protagonist and someone to root for.
the bombed town, she thinks saved the people and then the town is erased from the world, thats when she started to realize she cant save everyone
@@estebanpineros9409yeah no, wonder woman is a terrible example. Shes a mary sue aswell. She single handedly defeats the Germans in the trenches of world war 1. She walks around like a shampoo commercial making a mockery out of the suffering misery and death of millions. Awful awful movie
@@leob4403Captain America did the same thing, lmao. Being OP isn't the problem. Wonder Woman is the best DC movie since the Dark Knight.
@@paximilian4037 overrated superhero trash. And dark knight is also ridiculously overrated, but the story isn't quite as stupid as wonder woman