Toph and Katara: Strong Female Characters Done Right
Вставка
- Опубліковано 12 тра 2024
- Okay, so my wife didn't write the script itself. She doesn't have time for that. She wrote down the parts of Toph and Katara's arcs that she thought would be best for this video, and I wrote the actual script, then we looked at it together.
Hollywood really cannot write good, strong female characters right now (with a few moderate exceptions). They insist on making their heroines invincible, flawless, inordinately competent Mary Sues who are never outdone in any area by anyone. They are boring and uninspiring. Toph and Katara provide examples of how to write competent, badass female characters who have depth, satisfying arcs, and inspire the audience.
#avatarthelastairbender
0:00 Intro
2:08 Katara's Motherly Nature
3:08 Katara's Hope
5:30 Katara's Mercy
6:30 Katara's Healing Nature
8:09 Toph Intro
9:09 Toph's Disability and Adaptability
10:35 Toph Overcoming Weakness
11:42 Toph's Self Confidene
13:14 Toph's Character Payoff
16:00 Conclusion - Фільми й анімація
You better believe I'll be making a video about Netflix's Katara.
*lantern circles*
There is no live action Avatar
Oh I’ll be waiting for it, that’s for sure.
Oh lordddddd. She’s been tarnished. Can’t wait.
Oh good lord what have they done.
The new live action katara or the….OTHER one?
The way the Avatar Company wrote their female characters can be summed up in Suki's one line: "I am a warrior. But I'm a girl too"
❤
❤
Dang straight ❤️
Period
Damn right ❤️
"I _am_ a warrior... but I'm a girl too"
-Suki. (Book 1, Chapter 4, "The Kyoshi Warriors")
Exactly! Suki is a minor character but is clearly so well thought out. She feels real.
God damn it I fucking love this show
One of these classic linguistic issues:
- I am a female and I am a warrior.
- I am a female warrior.
When you conjugate the words together like this, a 'female warrior' becomes exceptional and unusual.
This is why *some* folks with autism prefer to be described as such, vs autistic person. The autism becomes exceptional and otherly, dehumanising folks by putting them in a 'box', aside from everyone else.
@@FunLovingPotato personally i like it the other way around. as i appear socially competent and normal, i like to call myself or be called by my friends autistic, because i find some fun in the contrast it brings. and it also help with forcing into other people's head the idea that i do actually suffer from autism, and it's not just a "mild" thing or any other rationalizing train of thoughts.
i definitely don't accept it being used to refer to other people with autism spectrum disorder though.
Damn, kids, all this nonsense from a few words 🙄
Most don't care about autism, autists, nor others outside normalcy. We care if we can work with you or not, the rest be damned.
one thing that i guess, is toph was fast on accepting Zuko, because she first heard about him from his uncle Iroh, opposing the others who had to fight and run from him many times, seeing only a guy who want to capture them, toph had this chance of knowing Zuko as a human being through his uncle, instead of seeing him as a firebender who wants to get the avatar.
Also she knew he wasnt lying.
@@eisflamme2438 That's mentioned in the video already.
Toph wasn't there at all during all the relentless Zuko chase "I must capture the Avatar to restore my honour" which happens pretty much only during season 1. Toph has only seen the nuanced Zuko.
Yeah, she literally said that then they were arguing about Zuko in the Air Temple )
Basically, writers just have to remember that women are human too. “Strong female character” doesn’t mean a female character who is strong, but one who is complex, well written, with wants and needs, and flaws, and who overcomes and evolves. Even Katara who is often idolized through Aang’s eyes as an perfect motherly angel- Incites rebellion, steals from pirates, defies sexist tradition and challenges a master even though she knows she will loose, goes to war meetings to plan the invasion, carry revenge in her heart, and breaks down and yells at Toph.
Unfortunately the problem with that is a writer who doesn't understand to write female characters as characters first, probably doesn't understand how to write characters at all and use tropes to guide everything they do (separately and in total unimportant minutiae, I would argue Aang doesn't see her as some perfect angel except maybe at first, he just ignores the things he disagrees with because he likes her and doesn't see a reason to make a problem in the group over it for s1 as the one non sibling)
Well said
Thanks for giving me an understanding
She’s the opposite of Aang 😂
Did anyone really have to say Toph and Katara are “strong female character” ??? To me they’re just characters that happen to be female
@@vectorrondon5852 ? I don’t really understand what you want to say. It sounds a bit like the “I don’t see race” argument. The fact that they are strong FEMALE characters is very important, it’s extremely rare in out sexist society, and is the reason a video like this was made in the first place.
Toph and Katara are nicely contrasted by Azula. A firebending prodigy, master strategist and manipulator, Azula is able to overpower or outmaneuver every problem she's had in her life. When we first meet her, she would be a Mary Sue if she were a protagonist. But that turns out to be her flaw. She has never experienced setbacks, and so when she does, she can't handle it and melts down. She goes from a charismatic and overpowered sociopath to a complete mess, and that also makes her one of the best villains ever in animation.
I would say one of the best written villains ever.
In addition to how she can't handle setbacks due to inexperience with failure, she has also seen the way Ozai reacts with cruelty towards Zuko when he fails. So not only does Azula not have any experience with navigating a setback, what she has seen in childhood has taught her that failure is something that is shameful and she will be punished if she fails, so there is also no doubt a deeply-buried fear of failure within her.
Azula is one of my favorite villains. She's *so* wonderfully written
this whole show is
@@emilyprice178 I agree I always thought that despite her confident and arrogant demeanor she had this deeply rooted fear of being treated like Zuko if she ever failed
Typical gifted-kid-goes-to-college issue, just, you know. Burny.
What I love about Toph is that she's a dick. That's her character arc. She doesn't need to learn to be powerful or mighty. She has to learn to put aside her ego. She's effortlessly talented and also a massive jerk and that's why she's so fun and relatable.
But she’s also not a dick just for the sake of it. We clearly see that it’s her way of distancing herself as far as possible from that silent, helpless, fragile view society (mainly her parents) have always placed on her. Deep down she’s actually a kind and helpful soul, but until the Gaang, no one took enough time to get to know the real Toph so they could see that.
@@AxleBoost yee i really loved the interaction with Iroh and Toph. Iroh was very much needed to offer and outside perspective and he was the best candidate to do it bevause he was familiar with them but in the inner circle
but shes also not overly naturally strong. its not like she can just overcome anyone in the show. she's badass, but not show breaking, and she has to learn how to not be a.dick.
I added a TL:DR to comment below
Edit 2: to all the people trying to disagree katara LITERALLY tries to fucking gaslight sokka into believing he didn’t ACTUALLY love his mother like she did and that she loves her more. How the fuck could you disagree that she’s a terrible person after seeing that scene. She’s an emotional abuser and gaslighter
Edit 3: so many bad arguments in the comments. It genuinely brings to question the kind of intelligence fans of katara possess.
1.) it was not a heat of the moment kind of thing. She does it repeatedly throughout the entire series. She does it to aang during the pirate episode, to sokka repeatedly during the jet episode and when he is proven right she twists the situation to make her look like her victim and then doesn’t really apologise to sokka, she became a Mary Sue and attacked her instructor during the s1 finale bc her ego was hurt risking the avatars chances of saving the world (selfishness and narcissism), she gaslights toph into thinking she’s the problem when she tries to force her into doing cleaning but then gaslights the others into thinking they’re at fault during tophs scams because the money she earns makes katara unnecessary (typical narcissism, they always want to be the authority figure others rely on and will go to lengths to ensure it stays that way), she as I said tries to dismiss sokka’s emotions to make him seem less deserving of sympathy as her (again, narcissism). I can go on for a really fucking long time. She does it across the entire series constantly. Yeah sure let’s excuse katara for being a rude asshole as she was in edit 2 but let’s NOT excuse suko for the same exact thing except this time he was barely an asshole.
2.) mummy issues were entirely irrelevant to this discussion. It seems to me like YOU are projecting. My mother is a psychologist, she has studied this subject for several years and in fact specialises on emotional abuse and abuse victims. Currently she is working with a prison and counselling the inmates. She is a strong believer that most personality problems in people stemmed from poor childhood. I asked what she’d diagnose Katara based on a list I made of katara’s behaviours based on how she reacts to others perceptions of herself and how she treats or reactions to others emotions. My mother and I found it difficult to diagnose her specifically because katara typically lacks one or rarely two symptoms of almost all personality disorders.
Essentially my mother believes katara does indeed suffer a personality disorder and believes it is a result of childhood abuse or neglect which katara did not experience (I didn’t tell her she lives a mostly normal childhood, lost her mother but couldn’t properly understand what that meant due to her age, and her father left for the war later in her life but did maintain a family with no real conflict or experience with the war).
I proposed katara suffers from histrionic personality disorder, she almost completely fits the description to all marks. The only thing I found debatable was her self image, however she does verbally communicate that she believes to possess enough importance to warrant praise such as in the first episode, her fight with Pakku, her fight with jet, most of her early fights with s3 ally zuko and much more. She typically believes she’s some form of pillar for the crew that couldn’t survive without her, although that is a result of her actively ensuring that others require her help.
My mother also proposes that katara might have antisocial personality disorder but says she doesn’t demonstrate some symptoms tho possibly could have them. I informed my mother that she most likely lacks certain symptoms bc the writers did not realise they were essentially writing a psychopath and as a result missed some symptoms expressively demonstrated. Tho unintentionally demonstrated other symptoms.
Anyways moving on,
I genuinely feel pity for your sad life if you can see someone acting as badly as katara and excuse it bc “but she’s so loving, you just have mommy issues” yeah that’s called Stockholm syndrome. Abuse victims tend to ignore the multiple red flags and mistreatments bc of some brief and somewhat surface level displays of affection or kindness.
Anyways moving on to 3.) “but she’s so compassionate” again, ONLY when it involves praising her or being reliant on her in any way. That is textbook psychopathic narcissism. If she were in a legal interrogation the detectives would almost immediately assume or label her some form of antisocial sociopathy, or hell even a malignant narcissist. As I said, antisocial personality disorder. Typically charming, kind and sweet but lacking empathy for others emotions which as I’ve provided examples for earlier and later in this comment she does that a LOT. it’s one of her defining traits. In fact, katara has even more examples of it but I did not include them as some could argue she is contextually justified in doing so (such as lecturing her father for leaving her for the war instead of being there praise and comfort her, which although sounds fucked up it is true that his actions could cause a child to feel some form of abandonment and as a result anger towards the parent)
3.) “Narcissistic personality disorder is a mental health condition in which people have an unreasonably high sense of their own importance. They need and seek too much attention and want people to admire them. People with this disorder may lack the ability to understand or care about the feelings of others”
Ignoring how much katara fits the description of the superman complex she fits pretty much all definitions and descriptions of a narcissist to a T.
Katara tends to avoid verbally communicating that she is important, but she demonstrates behaviourally that she favours situations or people that allow her to place herself in a saviour position. Example; the oil fishing village. She risks endangering others, herself, the village people and their anonymity in enemy territory for the purpose of saving a group of people who realistically would not have benefited from her help for very long yet she did not appear satisfied in her help at all until people praised her. In other examples, including that one, whenever she does something nice and isn’t praised for it she almost always expresses an annoyance or desire to “prove them wrong”. Sokka, who isn’t a narcissist, will typically ignore this to reassure aangs decision as he believes aangs decision usually whereas katara will usually oppose. She’ll also do the opposite and praise aang for doing the right thing even if others don’t agree but will lecture others for not praising her when she helps them. I think she does it during the Kyoshi trials episode however I can’t particularly remember exact examples for this.
Lastly, 4.) zuko fits the description of avoidant personality disorder. I told my mum about his childhood and she says most of the prisoners she deals with in prison who are alcoholics, have a poor temper, struggle to maintain relationships or can’t behaviour well for long, all suffer from childhoods similar to zuko’s. I think zuko’s part in the amber island arc is a perfect example of proof that he is an abuse victim. When katara unfairly insults and dismisses his trauma the reason he doesn’t verbally or physically lash out as her like a lot of inmates would he instead avoid he emotions. He doesn’t speak out and defend himself to avoid further conflict with her and almost immediately tries to satisfy her and become liked by her. This is most certainly an avoidant personality disorder.
“But he offered to do it for her” BECAUSE HES TRAUMATISED 😂 no wonder you people are defending katara so much, you have no idea what you’re talking about 🤦♂️ oi vey
No Katara is. Toph doesn’t sugarcoat things (direct quote lmao). Katara however is an insufferable person. She ALWAYS has to be in the morally right position. Always. Even when she’s being an asshole the show has to make her seem right. Like how she scolds zuko for being a fire bender and his father being the leader and how her mother died even tho her mother died when she was really young and spent most of her life completely uninvolved with the war yet zuko had far worse than she ever did. Yet katara had to dismiss his feelings claiming he couldn’t ever understand, emotionally manipulating him into helping her selfish revenge plan which only existed in the plot to make katara once again look morally virtuous. Damn she’s an insufferable character. Toph is better. Toph doesn’t doesn’t scold people for cheating and then turn around and cheat herself.
Edit: katara literally only lost her mother. She basically kept everything else. Plus her mother died in a noble manner saving her.
From zuko’s perspective his mother was killed by his father as punishment for HIM being a disappointment. His face was permanently scarred as a reminder of this and he was humiliated by his father bc of a minor interruption he did by accident and then exiled and stricken of any honour and dignity he even had and then finally forced to live in enemy territory where everyone hates you and everybody recognises you and the only solution is to capture a person, who from your perspective is a walking one man army, assuming you could even capture them.
Basically all of zuko’s life is worse than katara’s. He tried to catch them but wasn’t interesting in actually hurting anyone. Proven by the first episode when he captures aang.
Katara was factually not justified in any of her actions, her constant gaslighting and victim blaming is unforgivable and she is always trying to force herself into positions where she can be praised for being a saviour. Such as pretty much any instance where she sees poor people in the war.
@@zzodysseuszz I think Toph is more of a generic dick, in a good way. You know what you’re gonna get with her and it may be getting called “Twinkle Toes” even after you’ve died and been reincarnated.
Katara can be straight out vicious, which Toph really isn’t. When Toph loses her temper, you may need a doctor, but Katara will send you to a psychiatrist.
Remember folks, this legendary series came at 2005. Its been 18 years, yet still hold relevance in character growth discussion.
Nothing flashbanged me harder than hearing "early 2000's" at the start of the video
I had a thought, what if the only reason we are talking about Avatar now is because the children that watched it back then are now adults who can talk about it like this?
I still have fantasies about being a bender it cant be closer to the truth fr cus now I can critically analyse the cohesiveness of their power system@@co7769
@@co7769 probably. But it also helps that it's a banger and especially popular show. We never hear people talking about let's say, Law of Ueki even though it's better than Bleach imo (these two are early 2000's as well). Nothing is because of a single reason
The writers were so wise
I also feel like Sokka's character development is a good example of turning toxic masculinity into healthy masculinity. He's always had traditionally masculine traits like physical strength, aggression, skill with logic and strategy, protectiveness, etc, but he didn't know how to hone and utilize those traits in a good way. He starts out arrogantly demanding to be the leader over Katara because he's the man, but he learns that people will naturally look to true leaders by their actions and virtues. He literally becomes a "real man". And the fact that he keeps up with the powerful benders around him is a real testament to the strengths of his character.
Edit: Glad to see there are more Sokka fans out there than I thought :) I thought I'd worded my comment in a way that wouldn't portray all masculinity as bad, but it never hurts to clarify. I don't mean "toxic masculinity" in the hyper-politicized sense of "all men are toxic". The masculine traits I mentioned can be good or bad. They were just "toxic" in early S1 Sokka because he was immature and inexperienced. By the end of S3, Sokka had gone through a whole character arc without losing any of his masculine traits. The whole sequence of him taking down the airships, and specifically the shot of him protecting Toph from falling debris, is genuinely one of my favorites in the finale.
And also, the rest of the group go from mocking him because he tried to make himself the leader to actually looking at him when a plan of action is needed (like in the drill episode). I mean, he even planned the black sun invasion. He slowly and naturally became the unofficial leader of the group.
@@THEPELADOMASTER they also don't know what to do without him while he's training with Piandao
@@RainSennin_ismyAltfacts.
@@RainSennin_ismyAltYeah, Last Airbender really made it so everyone has a purpose in the Team, EVEN Sokka
While from the start all he does is eat food the fact he knows how to organize something ended up as what the Team realized Sokka had allways been good at, planning
Consider how his biggest moments of growth come from interactions with father figures of one sort or another.
The inventor gives him self confidence in his ingenuity.
His dad's friend gives him his rite of manhood.
The chief of the Northern Water Tribe lets him lead for the first real time.
His father shows him how to be a better leader and blesses his role.
Master Piandao finalizes Sokka's integration of his present being and the path toward his future self.
Sokka was the closest thing to a man in his village for most of his life. He needed to learn what it meant to be that man.
one thing i love is katara faces the man that killed her mom and spares him. not because she has a sense of justice but because she feels conflicted. normally girls are shown as forgiving and taking the high ground because they have a strong sense of morales. you don’t really see female characters struggling with morality unless they’re villains, but katara being a hero struggling with the right choice is very refreshing to see.
My headcanon has always been that Zuko had that guy tried and executed after he became Firelord though.
@@graemesutton6437 Idk about executed but I wouldn't be surprised if he was imprisoned, or just let to rot with his mother
@@graemesutton6437Zuko trying every war criminal in the Fire Nation would be a Sigma move
Yes!
Heather mason is great at that
When writing a good character comes before writing a strong woman, that’s when you have actually inspiring strong women.
Writing my own manga and I was initially planning on eventually making the MC's party a trio of guys. However, I got one's name wrong when thinking about something, and thought "hey, this actually sounds better. This one's gonna be a woman then!"
nah, they moreso have to come hand in hand, if someone doesn't think about the 'women' portion of a strong character while they're writing them, they tend to not write about the female experience and how that would effect the characters from what i've seen
@@tinkersdinkerswhat op’s saying is that characterization comes before making them powerful
@@tinkersdinkersI think they meant more along the lines of making a good character as in good concept that works well rather than fully written character. Like say I wanted to 3d model a person, I'd need to start with a very rough shape out of cubes, spheres and cylinders and slowly take it from there, rather than just trying to morph a singular cube into a full model to start with. It will end up being a better model with more detail and depth rather than a weird stretched out nightmare that can't really be fixed without basically making a brand new model.
@@fefnir6950 This is no personal attack, just that your comment made me think of this: Why do we value female characters that have masculine traits? I see so many people giving the advice of "don't wrote female characters, just write normal people who are women" that always felt like male was seen as the default, and that having the focus of a character being their femininity is somehow lazy or bad writing, when we study stories in school about men who's character has much to do with their masculinity. Again, no hate, just a thought I often think when I see writers talking about how they chose to portray the sexes.
Toph mastering sandbending is also such an important note because it demonstrates her care for the group as well. Losing Appa was deeply traumatic for her, not just because she was powerless, but also- she would see it as it being her fault the team lost an integral part of the group (It's not actually her fault, she was saving the lives of her friends while holding up a massive building, but Aang places the blame on her regardless, even if he regrets those words later). I'm sure that even after Appa was retrieved, she felt immense guilt, and wanted to not only assure herself that it would never happen again, but also show the group that she is The Greatest Earthbender, and that they can still count on her. Just the fact that she mastered sandbending shows that she cares deeply for the Gaang, even if it was portrayed as her showing off how great she is lmao
She didn't officially master it. She mastered her own style of sandbending. True sandbending is almost a type of bridge between airbending and earthbending. Toph's sandbending was more earth based and foot focused
Speaking of trauma... didn't Toph eventually create the law enforcement agency for the big city?
She is not Toph; she is Melonlord!!! Muwuahaha!!!
the gaang is a better name than team avatar will ever be.
@@joannalu9460 frrrr
I just want everyone to notice that at no point did Katara and Toph degrade, demean or demoralize the male counterparts of their group. They leaned on each other for support and friendship.
At no point did Katara and Toph degrade demean or demoralize the male counterparts of their group
Meanwhile Toph in Season 2: *Steals Aang’s staff and calls him a “delicate instrument”.
@@burnedoutgraduatestudent4482 Cut to every time the group fires back at Toph making fun of the fact that she's blind. Toph was also trying to teach Aang how to earth bend at the time.
@@Asgardian30Making fun of her? You mean forgetting?
Lmao what? You must not have actually watched the show
To make OP point clear: demeaning as in by pointing out the gender, y'know, like the usual tropes of "All boys are the same" quote. They can still snark and make fun at each others, yes, they're kids after all, but it's not at the expense of whether they're male or female.
Tho tbh it's been so long since I watched the show, if there are I prolly missed it.
I love what Azula characterization as a villainess does with the strong female character trope. As Zuko said “everything always came easy to her, everyone adore here” which sounds very Mary Sue. She was so close to perfect barely a strand out of place. The fact she never had to struggle at anything is a major component in what set her down the path of evil.
That's a really good point
I have to disagree there, she struggled too but in a different way. Perhaps it isn't as explicit as the others but I see Azula as someone who had trouble expressing what they feel, like she uses her achievements as a way to make up for the love she didn't receive from her mother. She's also socially awkward in the ember island episode (probably never experienced having a life outside of military-hood), and the way she breaks down when her two friends betrayed her. Please Azula, go to therapy!
And I think villains are usually written to appear more competent or having an advantage to the main protagonists.
@@hanzquejano7112 that’s precisely the point they’re making - someone so over achieving and ultra capable is bound to have interpersonal issues as a byproduct of being perceived as “above” others and rather than a flawless hero, a tyrannical villain is the logical conclusion. Azula wasn’t just “born bad”, her personality traits early on wouldn’t result in the Azula we saw if the environment didn’t push for it… but the same personality traits (headstrong, physically powerful, low empathy, etc) wouldn’t result in a humble, selfless person unless there was a big positive presence in their lives.
Love your comment.Also, I really think Azula might've had some narcisistic personality disorder tendencies , also might have been from the very begining someone with mental issues (it's infered that she did engage in some mild animal cruelty as she taught Zuko to throw stones at that turtle duck, and animal cruelty is one of the signs of psycopathy). Now, im no therapist, so idk if she's actually a sociopath or a psycopath, and she DID also have very buried issues regarding her mother. Her sanity goes to hell once her moral crutches (her friends) are gone.
“The expression of virtue through a woman’s actions.” That is a beautiful line that rings with truth.
How are there no comments on this 1.9k liked comment?
@Donäld Trump not our fault you're too insecure that you find the existence of strong people who happen to be women so threatening.
@Donäld Trump as a woman I would say that a lot of womens lifes are defined by strength
Many real men do want woman to be powerful but in a healthy way.people nowadays are confused between real gender roles and the toxic over radicalized idea of masculine and feminine.
@Donäld Trump ad where are those words exactly in the comment? The phrase is about the expression of feminity, and I think its beautiful, and even very in line with what Im guessing are ur traditional conservative values
I actually think that Princess Yue is a fantastic example of a strong female character that almost never gets mentioned in videos like this. She starts out with every cliché ever: beautiful, a literal princess, soft-spoken, no special powers (no bending, no martial arts), she falls for the hero, betrothed against her will, needs to be protected because she's too physically weak (very sick as a child etc.). And yet she is unbelievably strong. She sacrifices her life to save her people (in one of the most emotional scenes in the whole show imo), has a strong sense of duty and responsibility, is not afraid to communicate her feelings for Sokka, but chooses "the right thing" (getting married to the guy her father chose). I think they did a great job with her and proved that strong can mean emotional strength as well
Really great point!! Yue deserves more love.
Great take
This! Exactly this! Most modern female writers scoff at this powerful translation of femininity as "weak, patriarchy fetish" when in fact it's one of the most impactful moments I saw in the show. I cried at that moment she said she'll give the life the Moon Spirit gave her 😭
@@tkraid2575 "You must be very proud." "So proud. And so sad."
Well, she appear only in one arc so no wonder people forgot about her
Most people who complain about Katara as a character forget that she’s 14 and only recognize the more mature side of her and expect her to be that mother
Exactly!! Katara gets hate for the 2-3 times she acts immaturely, while everyone else does so a lot more. She is a kid too and is learning and growing.
Yeah i never understood the complaints. Katara was my favorite character in the series. From the beginning of the series, it was clear that she was really tough in difficult situations. They implied that she looked after her brother and grandmother since their father was not around their mother died. She showed the same caring and levelheaded instincts with aang. She stood up for what she believed in, like with the prison episode and the waterbending teacher. She stepped up when the rest of the gang needed help. She also wasnt without her struggles. She can be thick headed and can be seen as bossy at times. she is clearly struggling with the loss of her mother over the series.
Ive always thought her character was very well done
And it's seen in very first episode, were Aang needs to remember, she is still a child while she sees herself as an adult allready, trough hardships in her life.
Another example of great modern female characters is Puss in Boots 2. Kitty and Goldilocks are both amazingly written female characters who are allowed to be badass and vulnerable and actually change throughout the story.
I did love them.
Luke. What are your Opinions on Rey Palpatine? Is she a great modern female character?
@@Luke_SkywaIker responded like a true Skywalker
@@IronGloochIMAX3D bait detected
I love all these characters, but I can't help but see that most of them are just secondary to the male main characters role. I want to see more well written women as main characters in future movies.
You're actually missing a key component of what makes Katara a great character. At the beginning of the show, she's an utter novice at bending and fighting. She makes incremental improvements nearly every episode because she's always practicing. Paku notes her determination and work ethic to contrast Aang's natural prowess. Rather than Katara naturally being so incredible, they make it clear that her relentless nature (which we've seen in countless other areas so it's perfectly in charcter) is what makes her a master by the end. The Waterbending Scroll episode is the epitome of this. Aang being naturally incredible makes sense given he's the avatar, and up to this point Katara has been the best waterbender she's ever met, so she was shocked and jealous how Aang surpassed her immediately. She has flaws that she overcomes, and her character strengths win out in the end
100%
That's spot on! And eventually Katara surpasses Aang in water bending (at least when he's not in the Avatar state). She had that ability to not only heal but blood bend as well. As far as I know, Aang (even as he aged) never blood bended but at the same time, he probably would never have tried because I don't think he viewed that as ethical.
@@drewmorrison Aang would have let himself die before employing blood-bending. He was willing to accept the consequences of failure to the whole world *again* when he made up his mind to not kill Ozai.
It should be noted that Katara is still, by all known metrics, a prodigy. In fact, the entire Gaang is. One could even go so far as to say that in a somewhat bizarre way, teenagers in the Avatar world are for some reason, or perhaps simply coïncidentally, always portrayed as prodigies.
Obviously, this is just because it's a show aimed at young teens or younger (I'm not saying an older person wouldn't enjoy the show though.) But in any case, in the show, we get to see a very clear representation of experience vs talent, and with katara in particular, on two occasions.
Katara holds her own against a master water bender, despite having any formal training up to this point, and comes very close to beating him. She then later, maybe a year or so from this episode, flawlessly and effortlessly masters bloodbending merely by viewing the movements required, in the span of a few minutes, all in the middle of a tense combat scenario with her friends' and her lives on the line. All while the one who invented bloodbending had to achieve that level of mastery over the course of decades.
I would not be a person to say that she is a "mary sue". People who do that don't know what a mary sue is. I WILL say though, that the above showcases pretty irrefutably, that she is a natural prodigy and a born master, it's just that she ALSO had to work harder than Aang, who is several times more of a prodigy due to also being the Avatar, obviously.
@@RedFloyd469 excellent points all around. I will add that Aang being a prodigy at waterbending goes beyond his being the avatar. He’s naturally gifted with waterbending, but not earth or fire. One could argue that’s just a mental block I suppose. He does master them all quickly, but that’s out of necessity.
I think overall necessity seems to play a large role in aiding the team in learning quickly. Katara has to learn blood bending quickly to save Aang and Sokka. Toph has to invent freaking metal bending all on her own quickly in order to escape.
You make a great point that it’s likely because it’s a show aimed at children that the kids are the most talented (besides the kickass old men in the white lotus). I remember being a kid and the fact is that is something I liked to see. I wanted to see kids being awesome and good at fighting. I think it’s important that Katara worked hard and didn’t just get waterbending right from the start, but I honestly as a kid would have been disappointed if she had never become the absolute force that she is. Hard work is inspiring. Seeing that hard work pay off (even if it could be argued it’s unrealistic, but hey it’s a fantasy show where people control the elements) is also inspiring.
"Femininity includes the expression of virtues through a woman's actions."
"Being motherly is not a virtue in and of itself, but rather it is the feminine expression of care, compassion, patience and a million other virtues. A father can express those virtues in fatherhood, but it looks quite different."
Thank you. I needed to hear that.
Except it's really not.
@@JadeDragoness6 cope
@@misantrope6267 Corden
@@JadeDragoness6 intrinsically speaking you're right, but when they don't specify, people tend to mean correlations more than causations. it tends to look different even though it doesn't have to
I didn’t like that line lol. Mothering is gross and weird way to describe women. It limits and demotes women to just vessels
male strong flawless characters are boring as well, what makes a good female character is what makes a good character
The part about virtues being desirable for both sexes, reminds me of “manliness and womanliness are the same song, played by different instruments”
Exactly, it doesn't matter if it's female or male. The character arcs should share similar growth. There should be more overlaps in a female or male character arc than there are differences.
@@drewmorrison Exactly! So many people today, especially with gender ideology, are all so obsessed with becoming/displaying/idealizing/idolizing the final product... taking the shortcut to "manliness" or "womanhood" without realizing that when you simply become a _virtuous person_ with _maturity_ and _integrity,_ you will naturally develop the features of your sex which are the most admirable.
Women are beneath us. We're not the same.
No no no! This is an antiquated notion of gender! I mean females dont have Y chromosomes and cant produce them, but to suggest there is any difference between genders in terms of genetic memory, morphology, biology or psychology is just every kind of -ist or -ism possible!
@@SomeUA-camTraveler the shortcomings of gender serving us as people came from us trying to live up to arbitrary labels to begin with, and us making more will not solve our problems! the faster we see that the difference between Man and Woman are unnecessary, the more we'll see that our genitalia has no weight in who we are as people and thus we shouldn't have to consider if it's "wrong or right"
Can’t express how much I love this! This is femininity that represents what REAL women are actually like.
yes! couldn’t agree more! master Sam wise is based!
Same it's so nice to see someone build up good examples instead of tearing down bad ones.
I think this is so weird. Bc y’all really HATE women in anime that like a boy. Or wants to be married. Or is shy and not that strong. And then call it unrealistic when there are plenty of girls that are like that, ESPECIALLY at the age Toph, Katara, Hinata in Naruto part one, are. Just say you can’t relate. Stop acting like every girl was so strong minded, strong, and independent. Majority were not at that age.
@@mlh1367 maybe you've just been conditioned to think that's what we hate. Anya and Yor Forger are two of my favorites aside from toph and katara.
@@mlh1367 actually, I’m agreeing with you. What we dislike is when the characters are perfect and have no growth, they have no flaws to contrast their virtues. Both Katara and Toph like boys in the show as well :)
I think an interesting component about Katara and Toph's character traits is that they reflect the traits from the element they bend (this is the case for Aang and Zuko as well imo). Katara is caring, compassionate, and principled. Toph is stubborn, independent, and tough. In Astrology and some other practices/topics, Water is characterized as a nurturing, emotional, and intuitive element while Earth is seen as stable, dedicated, and sometimes 'rigid'. Katara and Toph's traits line up pretty well with Water and Earth respectively. I believe that shows just how well written their characters are; the ability to have a complex and enjoyable character while also matching their characteristics to that of an element is pretty impressive.
Great point!
@@master_samwise funnily enough this es exactly what Iroh tells zuko when he is trying to teach him how to redirect lightning when he teaches zuko how he came up with the technique. The main point he hammers home is that the different benders for the most part embody the element they bend
Don't realize how I never made that connection🤦♀️ especially considering I'm decently versed with astrology, it just went right over my head😂
@@heehoopeanut420 especially considering that you dont need to even consider astrology when the natures of the elements can be physically observed in real life with water being an adaptable and life-sustaining substance and earth being foundationary to all things in most cases? lol
I'm sure that was 100% intentional.
i really really love the way you talk about katara here.
since i was very young, she's always been my favorite character. i remember when atla resurged a few years ago (esp on tiktok) a LOT and i mean a LOT of people hated katara, likely to do with misogyny/internalized misogyny. people called her evil for the way she spoke to sokka in the southern raiders episode and to aang, and how it was annoying that she was "always touching her necklace and talking about her dead mom."
i think what a lot of people didn't fully grasp was how much pressure katara felt after her mother died to become the matriarch of the family. i have an older sister who assumed the motherly role towards me and only when i became older did i realize that it comes with a great deal of sacrifice. due to the nature of war and hardship, katara likewise was unable to afford acting childish, because she felt that she had so much to take care of. she must've had to grow up so fast and most definitely felt responsible in becoming a motherly figure to not only her family but also to her friends. its why her nurturing and caring role is so important to me as an example of strong femininity! she is so motherly and powerful, but makes mistakes and owns up to them.
your thoughts in this video are beautiful and eloquently said! it brought me a lot of joy to hear something so overwhelmingly positive about my favorite character. thank you for this wonderful video!!!
Totally agree! Katara is the best! People way exaggerate how often she talks about her mother.
It’s also weird how they latch onto the very few times she acts badly/immaturely. Every single character has moments of acting in a way they should not. They are not perfect. People act like katara is the only one who has to be and that is stupid. She is a kid just like the rest of them.
The blind toph jokes were some of the best gags in the series. Definitely my favorite recurring one next to the cabbage guy.
"Oh no. What a nightmare."
They're good ones. I think as a viewer you also often forget that she's blind
@@olafthebear2327 yea. i forgot toph was actually blind until the liblary episode.
'THERE IT IS!' 'is the thing you would say when you see it.' *toph casually points out that she is blind*
@shannonbutler-williams7261 i read that in her voice lol
It's upside down, isn't it?
What I really love about Tophs character arc, is that she evolves from a girl who doesn't want to be dependent on others
to a girl who trusts her friends so much, that she throws herself and the others into the air, where she is completely helpless without any hestitation,
just guided by Sokkas pointing finger on the airship they want to enter.
Yeah, that one is a huge leap of Faith (And a big leap of Distance as well)
It shows a subtle development of her character arc that I didn’t even realized compared to the obvious redemption of Zuko, it shows you alot what a great writer CAN do.
It also helps that Toph actually LEARNED to Sandbend just because of that one traumatizing memory of not being able to save Appa in the desert, it makes her powerful characterization of being an Earthbender even more compelling when you realize she DOES grow from a weakness she never thought she would had. And this is long after discovering Metalbending. It’s clear she wanted to prove herself that she can be better too, even if it’s just for fun like building sandcastles.
I would like to point out something concerning Toph's vulnerability. Whenever the gaang travels somewhere she can't see (wood boat , appa flight, etc ..) she grab Sokka's hand. Showing that even so she started by moking him for his lack of bending she aknowledge his place in the team and put her trust in him when she "can't do it herself". (making the ending where she cries suspended to his arm knowing he's not lying, even more beutiful )
She kinda had a crush on him, I remember in the Serpent's Pass episode, when she fell into the water, Sokka was going to go save her, but Suki was faster to jump into the water and pull up Toph, and Toph went blushing and said dreamingly "Oh Sokka, you saved me", but was disappointed that it was just Suki
I think the Keyoshi warriors deserve a mention too. They are female warriors tasked to protect their home, and they've done so, very well and prior to Team Avatar appearing. They are strong and tough as nails, but at the end of the day, they're still girls, and they gossip, and giggle about cute boys like other girls do. They have no problem with being strong, and also being in touch with their feminine side at the same time. They don't scream in your face that they're women and can beat any man in battle, either. They don't need to. They don't need to be as strong as a man. They're swiftness and tactfulness as well as their ability to work as a team, gets them far.
@@breadandcircuses8127 You don't agree?
All the female characters in the show would deserve a mention, I think he just wanted to take the 2 most developed ones.
You know something that cut deep within me? As someone that can't remember well what some of my older family members looks like?
Sokka to Toph: "I'm gonna tell you something crazy. I never told this to anyone before. But *honestly*, I'm not sure I can remember what my mother looked like. It really seems like my whole life Katara's been the one looking out for me. She's always been the one that's here. And *now* when I try to remember my mom, Katara's face is the only face I can picture"
Like, fuck man, how can this show be so good that someone thought of THAT?!
That part was heartbreaking, and that reveal plus her overhearing it made me super WTF when not that long after, we get "then you didn't love her like I did", and it's like... okay kitty, I know you're hurting, but you need to seriously retract those claws.
This is what happens when you know your characters before exploring their story
@@SebiBubble Weirdly this plus knowing when to end are features I praise highly in both ATLA and Breaking Bad, which are not usually two shows regularly compared.
this is extra sad when you realise sokka looks alot like his mom
This Scene confused me as a Teen and even a long time as an adult. Me having Prosopagnosia ( face blindness) i think this is why this scene didn't catch me. i will never knew how it is, to be able to picture a face. I can't even picture my own face.
I'm a girl and I agree with everything you wrote here. It's very difficult to relate to female characters that are written as completely "perfect" girl bosses who literally win every single fight effortlessly. It's so much more fun watching well developed female characters like Katara and Toph and its inspiring too because you learn and grow from their triumphs and failures
The problem is they write these perfect winners because they’re afraid to offend anyone and lose potential earnings if they write a flawed human. They do the same thing with racial characters
@@legendofsociety796 true, we saw that with Wednesday Addams
Don't overdo it though, like with korra and her "failed hero arcs". Most fixed with mcguffings.
@@lloydgush tbh I think Korra was really good but it just isn't something to show children, it's too dark when it comes to that arc where she has poison in her body, i remember when i was a little kid i cried after a while because of the despair i felt, but then again I was just too young and watched the arc in a few go's
@@allulasidra4501 Yeah... Well, at least that one wasn't resolved through mcguffings...
Every year that passes by reinforces my notion that this show is a peak in narrative and character creation. As a child I didn’t know why I loved this show so much, as an adult, it’s become a benchmark against all other ephemera that’s cluttered entertainment media. Truly one of the most human shows ever.
I am a woman and I love Toph so much because I identify with her a lot. I feel like in most media tomboys characters like Toph are often pushed to the extreme limit: they are such tomboys they are basically trying to be men. They are not allowed to be women, while still showing a lot of masculine characteristics: you have to be either super masculine or super feminine. Toph is not like that: she has a tomboy side to her but she is still a woman. I relate with her flaws like her immaturity and her lack of empathy while also relating to her strengths like her confidence and independence. I love the design choices with her character as well: she is a tomboy, but she is not trying to look like a man. She just does not care for a femine look. Seriously, it's so refreshing to find a character in media that you can finally relate to so much.
Actually, Toph DOES care about whether or not she looks feminine or not, especially during Katara and Toph’s adventure in Ba Sing Se, she just says she doesn’t, but deep down, everybody is very insecure, even the most confident of us, persona or not.
@@aquilliusranger2137 I feel as though that was more so caring about what Katara had to say rather than actually caring about looking feminine. Putting myself in Tophs shoes if someone I cared about like Katara called me pretty, why wouldnt I be flattered?
@@goliathraydjc1617 True, but it’s these kindness of those who stands out that makes us WANT to explore these new possibilities more, if not for the happier memories with another person, who not only is a friend, but encourages us to be better! Reminds me of someone’s… *uncle…* huh
@@goliathraydjc1617 Also, like I said, everybody is insecure, Katara irritated Toph before they even step foot into Ba Sing Se, so naturally, it was meaningful for them to bond early too, since their conflict of interests didn’t resolve properly until Season 3.
I think toph wants to look pretty at times, anyone of any gender does, it isn’t inherently feminine
When Sokka tells Toph that he doesn’t remember his mothers face-instead always thinks of Katara is heartbreaking.
And even more hurtful when she later tells Sokka that he didn’t love their mother like she did when Sokka doesn’t support her vengeance quest against the Southern Raiders. God damn this show is deep.
What’s even worse is that Sokka looked like his mother 😭
@@xxslasher16xx this show had no right to devastate me emotionally. But it did. And continues to do so.
The most messed up part about this arc for me has always been how clear Katara makes it that she has no problem with and likely already has killed.
Remember the only reason she spared her mothers murderer isn’t because of some moral belief or because she thinks that killing is beneath her, it’s because that man was so hallow that there was nothing to kill. Combine that with how everyone encourages Aang to kill the firelord and she doesn’t object, and it paints a weird picture on her.
@@frankwest5388i find it highly believable actually. My brother is one of the most caring and loving member in my family. Yet he is ruthless at work. Cuts down employees who are useless or got on his bad side.
@@scxizm7828 oh its not bad just a bit messed up considering the shows target audience and how it usually handles violence. The thought of her being a cold blooded killer is a bit unexpected.
The writing for the women in Airbender is always on point. Truthfully I can't think of a female character that I don't really like in this show. You have Katara who is always the great friend and sister and also someone who can and will destroy you if you try to hurt them. You have Toph who is a prime example on how to do a disabled character who is probably one of the strongest women in the show. You have Suki and the Kyoshi Warriors who prove that non benders can still hold their own against people that are. And then you have Azula who is the best villain in the show with some of the most unique fire bending who gives Zuko's desperation for Aang a lot more context and weight, as well as her friends Mai and Ty Lee who like the Kyoshi warriors keep Team Avatar on their toes and are very dangerous despite not being benders. As well as Mai having my favorite scene in the Boiling Rock where she demolishes a group of Fire Benders to save Zuko.
These characters are actually real strong women who are multilayered and are characters you love, fear, and even grow to feel sympathy for like Azula.
And the list goes on and on. I feel like we hit a real stride for writing women in the earlier 2000s. What happened?
Politics and genders wars and forced lgbtq.
"I feel like we hit a real stride for writing women in the earlier 2000s. What happened?"
What always happened before the rise of the internet: The bad stuff is forgotten about and only the good stuff is remembered. People love to cite the likes of Ellen Ripley and Sarah Connor as strong female characters and how "they just aren't done well the way they used to" while forgetting that for every awesome female protagonist, there were hundreds of useless props filling the leading lady character slot who nobody remembers. I think it was less drastic by the 2000s compared to the 80s, but still. Nowadays instead of (dramatically speaking) the bad female characters being 100% useless props, they're useless props only about 75% of the time and we occasionally get a shallow pop feminist character or two thrown in that internet folks love to complain about, but neither of those negate the great female characters coming out at the same time. Look around and you will find them. MLP, The Owl House, Steven Universe, Bluey, Dead End Paranormal Park, all of these shows include several fantastic female characters who are strong in their own rights.
I still think ATLA is special because of just how well balanced the gender equality is in this show, but it's far from the last animated TV show to have well-written female characters.
Korra
@@victorbatista609 true
@@victorbatista609 I was referring to this show only but there are a lot of great women in Korea too.
Toph is legitimately one of my favorite characters ever. I don’t care that her writing is simple and doesn’t really require much speculation, in fact that’s honestly part of why I love her so much. Because like Toph wants, we see her for who she is. A 12 year old blind girl that has been able to adapt to the world she lives in in a way no one around her even imagined possible. Her disability is sometimes a hinderance, but also sometimes an asset (and an important asset to boot). Her personality could also be seen in a similar light: useful in certain instances, harmful in others. The best characters are the ones who’s traits can be both good and bad, depending on the situation and what they chose to do. She was unique enough from the get-go to stand among these other characters with complicated arcs. I was introduced to ATLA after watching a compilation of all the “Toph is blind” jokes, and even from just that I could tell these writers had talent. The fact that the characters keep saying “sorry” after _she_ makes the jokes is just so funny, it doesn’t feel mean in any way. To this day she is still one of the best examples of disability representation I’ve seen.
It's interesting you made the comparison between Katara and Aragorn since Aragorn is one of the few examples of masculinity done right. He weeps when his friend is struck down, he recites poetry at his own coronation, he looks after those in his care, he's a skilled healer as well as a skilled warrior, and throughout it all, is a total badass.
100%
And General Iroh, minus the healing hands plus mean tea.
It’s this kind of observation that makes me hesitant about using femininity or masculinity as a primary descriptor of these characters. They’re multifaceted, and conform to or defy gender expectations as individuals, which is what makes them well-written. A lot about Toph is stereotypically masculine, but that doesn’t mean she can’t be a girl. Gender isn’t so much about innate character traits or categories of traits, but the ways in which you choose (good) or are encouraged (less good) or pressured (bad) to express, or suppress, those traits.
@@pedrovargas2181 General Iroh doesn't have healing hands, he has healing words.
@@muddlewait8844 Gender is, at the end of the day, a social construct. No, I don't mean that having a penis or vagina is something that you can make up. Because Sex =/= gender.
What I mean is that the term "gender", in a modern context, is very specifically defined as a construct of social norms and expectations in terms of behavior, virtues and beliefs, that are implied to relate to a person's physical sex.
Individuals have a choice though, they can choose to embrace those gender constructs, or rail against them, or ignore them, or study them, or perfect them, or whatever you want. A person isn't defined by their sex, and "gender" isn't something under anybody's individual control to begin with, as that takes a society to change, not a person.
This does not refute or belittle people who showcase "typical" masculine or feminine traits, nor is that in contradiction with the supposed strides western society has made with regards to what we have clumsily called "transgenders" or their rights. And certainly, when it comes to people who actively persecute the latter group, they seem to find the very idea that gender is a social construct to be so dangerous it requires an authoritarian nationalist regime to stop the "woke ideologies.", hypocritically denouncing "idenitity politics" while actively showing a totalitarian identity-driven political ideology down everybody's throat, but I severely digress. It simply means that individuals choose their actions, and are not strictly defined by a society's expectations of them.
So I agree that at the very least, it's unneccesary to make long essays regarding how a character showcases "true" femininity or masculinity, as this is at the very start of the premise, a "no true scotsman" fallacy. There is no such thing as "true femininity" or "true masculinity", these are constructs that people mostly use for ideological reasons, and we ought to be more wary of them. The real question is how these characters make the audience fall in love with them, want to root for them, sympathize with them, vilify them, or see them as misguided, or badass, or cool, or weak, or whatever you have, regardless of the sex they are born with.
I feel like Starfire and Raven from the original Teen Titians deserve an honorable mention. They're easily the strongest members of the team and it's done almost seemlessly
Another would be Kim possible
@@alexbrown8900 KP as a character is *too* well written for people these days.
@@kylegonewild probabyl lol
@@kylegonewild Don't forget the real VIP Rufus the Naked Mole Rat!
@@alexbrown8900 KP being brought up is a bit funny to me who dabble a lot in fanfiction community. Since while it's not the rule of thumb, there's a fairly large community of KP basher in the fandom. Yet Hermione is almost universally beloved in HP community, to the point people usually turn her into an even worse written Rey Palpatine in their fanfiction.
In 2023 and people still making video essay about the original ATLA…I’m grateful for you guys
I loved the way you discussed Katara’s trusting nature and how it sometimes manifests into scorn and resentment from the hurt she experiences when betrayed. An underrated element of her character. She has so many great and really interesting elements to her character but a lot of people write her off as just a basic “mother” who talks about her grief. Thank you for this video
When you talk about Toph's unwavering self-confidence when she said she didn't care what those girls thought of her, I think there was a bit more nuance to that scene than saying she really didn't care. After all, she was crying when she said it. Toph IS a strong, confident, capable girl, but that scene added a depth to her character by letting us have a peek at her vulnerability. We saw that even though she is so strong and can stand up for herself, somewhere deep inside, she is still a young girl and she does care - at least a tiny bit. Which makes it even more meaningful when Katara told her she's beautiful. Toph can tell that Katara is not lying. And I bet that hearing that from her friend made the strangers' opinions suddenly not matter anymore. 12:20
Your point that Katara is noticeably more affected when her trust is broken than the other characters are is both so central to understanding her and such a clever and subtle way that the ATLA team wrote her character. One of the insights of game theory and the evolution of cooperation is that trust and revenge aren't opposite emotions, but complementary emotions. Trust pushes you to cooperate, and a desire for revenge pushes you to punish those who cheat and betray your trust. I love the fact that Katara, being a trusting person who sees the good in everyone, is also written as the embodiment of revenge. (To such an extent that her lack of trust becomes part of her character development that she has to overcome
katara is the only character that I remember expressing hatred. funny how people never point it out, but the way she feels towards people that breaks her confidence or hurts/k1lls those she cares about is WAY stronger than just rage. you can tell just by her eyes. the kindest, most caring and compassionate is also the one capable of feeling the coldest, most horrifying of sentiments. she didn't refuse to k1ll her mother's murd3rer out of a sense of justice. it was out of despise of what it would make of her, and moreso, out of the despise she felt for him. only a heart prepared for giving pure, unconditional love is capable of nurturing pure, unadultered hatred.
I think you are right. There is a difference between "not relying on someones opinion" and "not being affected by someones opinion". Toph knows that many dont like her and it does not stop her from moving on but people actually telling her that still hurts her.
Niceeeee
omggg I completely forgot she can tell Katara's not lying omg you just made the scene better for me-
It's the same vein as 'beware the quiet man, the good man with the very big stick'.
Most people do heavily underestimate kindness and softness and quiet for weakness, until that person turns you into dogmeat. @@gustavogoesgomes1863
That was one of my biggest gripes about SheHulk. Not just the CGI, but the fact that she laughed in the face of Bruce's struggles, trials, and triumphs for the sake of "haha she can do it easily".
This annoyed me so much. I liked SheHulk and I generally thought the character was likeable and well written.
But there is one line in the first episode that really drove me crazy. I can't remember it exactly, but SheHulk basically says to Hulk that he doesn't know what it's like to be stressed out because being a woman is so hard. She said that to the Hulk! The Hulk of all people. It was just so weird and tone deaf and it almost turned me off the show immediately
@@yoloswaggins7121 It deeply upset me because Banner implicitly said he tried commiting suicide to kill the Hulk in the first Avengers movie. I don't know how anyone could defend that scene or the writers of She Hulk for coming up with it. I just couldn't move past that scene. Nothing Jen could do would make me like her after that.
And it would be one thing if it was part of a character arc where Jen was ignorant of what Banner went through, and part of her development was her realizing just how hard of a time Banner had. But I could tell that wasn't what the show was planning just from the tone of Episode 1.
Oh totally, it just seems like Jennifer (his own cousin) completely forgot how much Bruce struggled. He had to isolate himself from family and friends, he couldn't be in crowded areas, he was constantly surveilled by governments, and people only interacted with him if they needed Bruce's intelligence or the Hulk's strength. He didn't find a way to properly live until he came to terms that the Hulk is a part of him too. That took decades of his life. She-Hulk has always been pretty much instantly controllable, but Jennifer not understanding Bruce's previous tribulations for her own as a woman to me is just toxic. I think her character would've been much better if she reassured Bruce, as he was obviously frustrated with her being so controlled in her Hulk form. Just because you struggled too doesn't mean you can invalidate another's. They used it as a comedic test of strength and control when they could have shown growth in both if they just actually listened to each other.
@@ewbait fr, and the fact that they say all this but she still has the body of a conventionally attractive slightly muscular woman, like you fucking cowards, it would have been at least interesting if you gave her a similar build to hulk, or like some of the dorohedoro women, ANYTHING
And its not like the MCU has always been bad, because it hasn't. Black Widow was a great 'strong, female character'. Heck, I'd say that, barring Captain Marvel, almost all of the female character up to the end of Phase 3 are pretty damn good.
1:55 "Flawed and short sighted" *camera cuts to Toph*
RIGHT!? HE DID NOT HAVE TO DO THAT HAHAHAHA
This video made me realize...
Zuko is a spirit guide. Katara's path was her own, he was merely a guide. A doorman if you will. He took her too the door, opened it and had her choose whether to walk through or not. He did so without judgement and without any words of encouragement one way or the other. He spoke from his experience and stood back as she made her choice.
And when he went with Aang, he guided there as well. Not with the maturity as he did with Katara, he had not yet grown into the roll. But he was still guiding Aang on instinct if not experience.
When he wasn't in pain, he was Iroh. He became the man Mr. Rogers knew he could be.
It also shows you how much Zuko underestimates Katara’s bending when she inevitably bloodbend, that surprised even Zuko, the most powerful Fire-nation prince has nothing on a person who could puppeteer his own Fire-nation countrymen like they’re toys. He could’ve been next.
I think he was scared because that was the first time he was seeing bloodbending.
it can be quite terrifying to see@@aquilliusranger2137
There's a particular mentality of 'strong female character' that i choose to blame entirely on joss whedon, where the idea is 'this female character is literally strong' rather than 'this female character has strong characterisation'. a lot of people who get caught up in arguing over what a mary sue is miss the part where the lack of characterisation beyond 'everyone loves them, no i will not explain why' is the issue, not them being powerful.
Also, "strong female characters" get more negativity and outrage than "strong male characters", and literally every other male character in the same genres is overly strong, extremely capable, never wrong, and a Gary Stu. I for one don't think it's fair since the media is oversaturated with those male characters and just now the same badly written characters are made female.
Why should every damn female character from the media be a great written character when the same isn't expected of their male counterparts.
@@Georgiana216 cus most people don't like the characterization. even the super strong male characters have to overcome internal and external conflicts and they do struggle at times. but the strong female characters are like a weird side character even in their own show / movie. they're written like side characters, no actual interesting conflicts, no overcoming something, just being super powerful and overcoming any conflict in seconds.
Exactly. The problem with "strong female characters" is not that they're overpowered and perfect at everything they do. We never see them struggle. No matter what they have to do, they do it without breaking a sweat. They can never fail, make mistakes, and struggle because those are signs of weakness for these writers.
They don't understand that no matter how skilled your character is, they need to be able to grow and learn from their mistakes. If the character is doing everything effortlessly, then there is no reason for the audience to root for them because we all know they're going to win in the end no matter what.
But we can't have that because the message is that women are perfect at everything and they can do no wrong. Which, as a woman myself, is not something I can relate to.
"Everyone loves them" is part of Mary Sue definition. It's not only about power.
@@beamed7770 Nah I agree with them. I hardly hear many complaints about Gary Stus in fiction. The overly independent male character that doesn't need to rely on anyone is a trope I don't hear anyone hate on, but make them a girl and it's suddenly a feminist message? Kirito is a good example. He's a protagonist that many people hate on for his perfection, but his gender is usually left out of the equation when it comes to criticisms of his character.
I really hate how a lot of female characters nowadays cant even be helped and they HAVE to do everything themselves. Like? No, wtf. Allowing others to help you doesn't mean you're weak nor does it make you any less capable. If anything, i think it can actually be pretty admirable allowing yourself to show a bit of weakness and be helped. But idk, maybes its just me
A virtue of femininity is receptivity, or the willingness to accept help from others. Technically solidarity, it's opposite, is a masculine virtue. Modern media appears to me to be propping up the vision of hyper masculine-trait females as the pinnacle of femininity. We all have a balance of masculinity and femininity in us all, so this imbalance is probably the reason that these characters seem off to us and don't resonate.
And we're apparently all born in God mode. I'm a strong and successful woman and I worked my butt off and failed a lot to get that way. The way we're being pandered to now in which we're born with all the midichlorians or chi or whatever in the world and all we need to do to unlock our potential is to ignore male oppression and tap into the power of girlbossitude is one of the worst messages I could think of to send to little kids. 90s Mulan wasn't particularly special. She wasn't into her culture's role for women but also wasn't a born fighter. She wanted to protect her father and got to where she did by hard work, intense training, and being clever, not by being born with the ability to kick a dart into a man's heart.
Yeah, it's just reinventing toxic masculinity tropes (glorifying aggression and "independence" while vilifying vulnerability and emotional maturity) but painted as "girlboss". Yes, girls/women have been handed the damsel in distress trope historically but doesn't mean relying on others at all is weak/bad. The problem with the damsel trope is that it made girls/women shallow characters that could've easily been replaced with an object. Making them perfect girlbosses still makes them shallow characters. Just because it's re-imagined doesn't make it any less toxic. And also, wouldn't it be more "girlboss" to have girls/women helping each other? Nothing more powerful than being able to help your sisters out. Any girl can tell you how empowering it is to have a good cry with each other.
There are a lot of great females characters nowadays, me and most people on this comment section may not at all consume the same medias :/ This whole strong female written like toxic male sounds niche.
Mostly from mainstream media mills like Disney/Marvel for sure. Luckily it's only around like 10 or so far, but it's annoying how they pretend it's empowering when it's not. But def loved Arcane and EEAO as some modern examples.
The fact that Katara embodies Hope as a Verb, (an action) allows her to be positive but still live in realism, obviously growing to fully embody real Hope through experience
One noteworthy minor detail, is that Toph is the character chosen to play the role of the "melon lord". The writing offers us a chance to see Toph's self-awareness and confidence under a different scope (she isn't afraid to play the villain) and she actually parodys her rigidness through the process.
Honestly , If you made a video on each character for no matter how long , i'll watch it, THE WISDOM I STEAL FROM YOUR VIDEO IS EXTREMELY VALUABLE
nothing but facts
It's great to bring up Toph because even with her strong self image and nigh unparalleled earthbending, she very much sees herself as a "strong girl who doesn't need anyone" she's still not boring and has her own underappreciated arc.
and she isn't unnecessarily abrasive. A little bit but it's not overdone. She's just...Toph. And that's amazing.
@@ZentaBon She's also funny. I think if the authors were too incompetent to write good humour, and her jokes never landed, she'd be much worse as a character.
@@aregulargamer9908 Their is a compilation of toph making blind jokes throughout the show. Seems alot of us liked her jokes.
@@babyboijeremy I loved that they put in jokes about how the team sometimes forgot she was blind when they were in the moment. It's such a fun little touch I feel is pretty realistic and relatable.
The "strong girl who don't need no man" isn't by any means a new cliché, stereotype, and certainly not something that the supposed strawman "woke left" has invented.
The avatar writers were very likely well aware of the already existent trope when it came to writing women, who were usually written by men trying to write for an audience of also mostly men, in an age when femininity was seen either as an annoyance or as something sexually desirable.
The "badass" girl has always been a staple in western cinema, it's just that one particularly obnoxious version of that cliché has become increasingly prevalent in a post "Star wars the force awakens" environment. (Let's not forget that the most obnoxious examples of cinema mary sues almost always come from Disney. People like to forget that Disney is coming very, very, very close to owning a true monopoly of the cinematic experience. This means that an executive decision to become more engaging to the "female audience" will have consequences with regards to a ton of shows and movies that are now firmly in the iron claws of Disney's shareholders. In all likelihood, hollywood is less "woke" the more and further away you get from Disney.)
The writers therefore also knew that having Toph come across as said "strong girl who don't need no man" was an excellent way to then later satirize this trope and subvert it. Toph isn't a cliché, she's a character, and a main one at that. She deserved to be written as one, and not treated like a cheap trope that had been done a million times before. You can do that in a humorous show, and for minor characters, but not for a show like Avatar.
Toph and Katara are some of my favourite female characters ever written, they grow so much over the series and just feel human. Sure they can bend the elements metal and even the blood in your veins, but they show such great writting.
On the blood bending too, i still remember just how broken Katara was after the first time she used blood bending, while looking at what she could very easily and almost did become
Katara shows exactly what it can look like when girls have to grow up to fast. It was my own experience and I felt her character was very sincere and real for that.
This trope in general makes me feel… icky… it’s complicated, because “paragon” ish characters have existed for aaaages. Sometimes it’s done well (some versions of Superman are still deeply loved) but it’s pretty much always pretty boring. However, it’s esPECIALLY pisses people off when that character happens to be a woman. Sometimes that fact seems to automatically make such a character poorly executed.
What’s most frustrating as a woman/girl isn’t just seeing poorly executed female characters on screen so frequently (which does really suck) but, more-so, seeing how disproportionately angry it can make others.
It’s exhausting.
Some shows do a good job of acknowledging how gender plays into a character’s personality - whether a character fits into what’s expected of them or not. Arcane actively subverts lots of gender stereotypes but also embraces others; the show isn’t trying to put down typically feminine women, but simply showing many different kinds of women; and the show makes it as clear as day that they’re not making value judgments about how a woman performs her gender. On the other hand, many shows will have one woman- a tough woman, and she can only be tough if she’s tough in a stereotypically masculine way. They try to create a strong female character by writing a man and then calling her a woman. Is it impossible to make this work? Of course not- women come in all kinds, including some who relate much more to men. But writing this kind of person can’t be done without care and thought. And if the token “strong female character” is just a guy with boobs, the viewer can TELL they they weren’t written with the care, attention and love you’re talking about here. They were probably written by a guy who never actually considered that the character probably goes through the world differently from him.
Hollywood “tries” to make half assed attempts at female characters, because it recognises that it is what audiences want (in theory), but they straight up don’t know how to make a nuanced woman- that would require treating your female characters as human beings, which would require SEEING women as human beings; with full and complete personalities and lives. When they fail in this mission it’s disappointing… coz it just shows us how little people really listen to or care about our experiences. Yknow?
But it’s worse when people take that as some kind of evidence that women are boring or weak or unfit for being the centre of a story. Misogynists love a “mary-sue” because they feed so nicely into their screwed up, self centred ideology.
AtLA having parallels drawn to LotR is more powerful than I was expecting, and I love it. Just seeing a glimpse Gandalf's speech in Moria while discussing Katara's decision not to kill Yon Rha got me in the feels.
I'm so glad that resonated with you! I absolutely love Lord of the Rings (can you tell?) and will reference it whenever and wherever I can.
@@master_samwise Definitely looking forward to your inevitable Aragorn character study.
@@scolibro7163 Can’t wait either. 😎👍
I haven't seen Lord of the Rings [yet], but a friend of mine made me binge the Hobbit with them a few weeks ago. I won't know for sure until I make the time to watch them, but I'm assuming it might be the same or similar to what Gandalf told Bilbo in the movies? That it takes true courage knowing when to spare a life?
I know cinematically LotR came first, so it's fair to assume that line was a callback to the trilogy I haven't seen yet than the other way around.
Again, it's been a few weeks since I've seen the Hobbit trilogy, so I never thought to apply that sentiment to Avatar, which is ironic since it seems to be the thematic build up of the entire show, Aang knowing when to spare a life. This has given me a lot to think about either way, thank you.
@LoreCatan As someone who love both trilogies, you haven't seen the better of the two. Get that friend to show you LotR...extended if possible. 😅 Bildo and Frodo both have amazing movies. ❤
I love how a kid show from almost 2 decades ago is still so relevant to this day for topics that make adults act like babies. While the show wasn’t perfect, it did a lot more right than wrong in many ways that ring true far beyond its original run. AtLA was truly a gem of a show and deserves its spot as one of the best fiction pieces of all time.
Why wasn't the show perfect?
You're right. It's not. No matter how good a show is, it'll never be perfect. That will mean everyone will love it.
@@sue3629some episodes are a bit slow and boring, especially in season 1’s first half and occasionally an episodes morals can be a bit hamfisted, like the sexism moral in the south poll, where it was done worse than the one on Kyoshi island
The show is far from perfect, but it’s highs are some of the highest in the industry and it’s lows are better than the best of most shows
This is a show for all ages. It's actually so nice to not have gore or "adult" jokes. Writing well is such a hard skill to master... most shows just aren't the same as this one.
@@ZanderX10 Indeed. You don't need that for a good show.
I love it that in Avatar TLA the female characters are just so great. They're so perfectly written, even the more flat characters like Jade, Suki, Mai, Ty Lee. They are all very likeable, good, strong characters on themselves. And it's because they are all just so genuinely portrayed, because the writers wrote and treated them as actual characters in the story and not as political feminist symbol. (As 90% of todays female characters sadly...)
I usually hate most women heroines and I started feeling bad about feeling this way, because I want to support strong and empowered women, since I'm a woman myself, but I kept finding male heroes more interesting and intriguing. I grew to realise that I wasn't the problem, because I love women heroines such as Katara, Azula, Toph, most women in the ATLA universe, and even others like Mulan or everyone in Arcane.
Right! You aren’t the problem. The issue is the bad writing for a lot of recent female heroes.
I agree. The reason why people are upset at female heroines are almost 100% due to the lack of dimension these characters have. Like I loved mulan as a kid both the chinese live action one and the disney cartoon one. But I absolutely hated the disney live action one to the point I refused to watch the movie (watched clips of it on youtube and the fighting scene looks horrendous) since I knew it was gonna be about an op girl who has magic martial arts.
Azula is a villain
@@alexandergapour1253 Yes, but you know what I mean, I love her as a character.
@@heresourplan7521 I watched the movie and I have to admit, as someone who watches a lot of movies, Disney Live Action Mulan might have been one of the worst movies I have ever seen, if not the worst one ever. I could talk for a whole hour about what they did wrong.
I typically don't write comments, but just watching you go through such a brief, yet super well thought out character study of one of my favorite childhood shows, idk how put it into words perfectly, but i'm just left in inspiration and like gratitude cus i think we can all relate in someway to every single character in someway. And for you to explain why we connect to these characters so deeply in a concise way with care, i'm excited about your future videos man. Really enjoyed these 2 videos.
I'm glad you've enjoyed them! Credit to my wife for providing me with the outline for this one. She knows ATLA far better than I do, and we will for sure be working on more such videos.
I feel the same way to an extent. I only watched ATLA recently and I was blown away with what I saw on screen. Furthermore Samwise perfectly details everything I was thinking of while watching the show and then some.
Ditto.
Strongest waterbender in atla: Katara (girl)
Strongest Earthbender in atla: Toph (girl and toph will diff bumi)
Strongest firebender in atla: Azula (girl and the way she tames lightning , if given enough time she can diff ozai)
Strongest non bender: Probably someone amongst Mai , Ty lee or suki (i vote for suki)
Yet It never felt cringe or overpowered or even "feminist" BUT LOVELY FEMININITY who displays it in very different ways while resonating with the same fundamental.
All the characters are strong,
Heck no! I'm all about the Old dude Squad being the most powerful. Iroh, Paku, Bumi, and Piandao for sure are the best.
@@bumblingbureaucrat6110 Bumi is outclassed by Toph in my opinion, but you’re probably right about the other 2. Iroh is possibly good enough to take on Ozai, but his justification for not doing so is to prevent political fallout.
I agree that all of these are strong, but the strongest?
I could see your case for Toph, she's a bending prodigy with special circumstances that strengthened her understanding of the earth even further.
But that's about it. As terrifying as Azula is, I'd still give the edge over to Ozai, and maybe Iroh and Piando who practice a much more pure form of firebending.
For Katara, honestly it's hard to say, she is definitely resourceful and pulls off some really cunning strategies, but she just doesn't really have real competition after leaving the North Pole.
As for non-benders, that one is completely up in the air, indeed the show mostly portrays skilled female fighters in that category, but you could very well introduce a slew of exceptional male fighters and I wouldn't bat an eye since fighting can take on so many different forms.
That’s because all the strong capable female characters were also balanced out with strong capable male characters. It’s only pandering or overbearingly political when male characters are made artificially weaker to prop up poorly written ‘strong’ female protagonists. Unfortunately a common writing trope for hacks who can’t write compelling characters.
Nearly every character in this show was written extremely well, it gives me inspiration for my own works and a great point of discernment for good stories in the future.
My favorite characters are Katara and Iroh. Katara because she has a relatable personality to me. And Iroh because he is everything that I look for in role models. I also really love the contrast between Iroh and Zuko, it makes my eyes water when Zuko asks for forgiveness at the end of the show. Beautiful!
I love how you described motherhood and fatherhood simply being different expressions of the same virtues❤
Full metal alchemist brotherhood is another story that does strong female characters incredibly well and they show so many different kinds of strength.
Yes!! I love the female characters in Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood so much!
Absolutely
You know a very big problem with the "strong female protagonist", and it's something my wife pointed out. They embrace toxic masculinity. Things like vulnerability, sharing feelings, compassion, empathy, being supportive, being accepting, needing help, and even traditionally feminine values like motherhood, are seen as weakness, and so their strength has to come from opposite places. Being the strongest, lashing out, being "the best", perfect, and infallible. The problem is, is this has to come in the form of peacocking their strengths and virtues around, bellicose behavior, being obnoxious and mean, challenging anyone who is perceived as a threat, doing everything by themselves, being praised, always being right, and being the center of attention. Unsurprisingly, it makes them very unlikable for the exact same reason Belle is disgusted by Gaston: sure he looks good, he's a fantastic hunter, has a great singing voice, and there's no man in town half as manly perfect, a pure paragon, and people buy into it, but we just see them as superficial, self-absorbed bullies.
This is pretty much exactly what's been on my mind lately with so many modern "strong female characters". Basically a woman character nowadays can't be strong and independent unless she literally takes on every single toxic masculinity trait you mentioned before. Like nowadays people can't POSSIBLY fathom a woman being strong capable skilled and independent unless she takes on traditionally Masculine trades and any traditionally feminine trades showing are her weekness..........why are we regressing
I would argue that it's "good" to have female characters like you've described in stories because it can allow for a diverse range of female characters, keeping things interesting imo.
However, the issue, as you've pointed, out lies in that characters such as these are often portrayed positively or "in the right" and not needing to change their problematic behaviour. If we could have characters that start off like that but then grow out of it, that would be cool. Or even just straight up bully female characters that are kinda like Gaston.
@@aiyeina Oh, absolutely. Personally, I hate the notion that a depiction is an endorsement, and that having a character do something positive OR negative is somehow encouraging that behavior. Rick Sanchez and Arthur Fleck are among the worst and most flawed human beings ever put on screen, but they're interesting, can be funny, and we can even identify with them and get invested in their story and struggles. Just, like you said, if they are going to advertise a character as a role-model, that character should be interpreted and critiqued as such -- if Rick was intended to be a positive role model, that show would be slammed by critics and rightfully so. The biggest thing that bothers me though, is how people attempt to use "they're a positive depiction of a woman or race or LGBTQQIP2SAA" as a shield against criticism and as a bargaining chip to boost popularity. Like how Seth Rogan claimed people who didn't like Santa Inc were white supremacists, or how Mindy Kaling has accused critics for having sexist and racist motivations behind disliking Velma -- with those two's years of experience in that industry, there is NO WAY they genuinely believe the reason people dislike those shows and those characters is due to bigotry OR that those shows are even remotely positive depictions of anything because, to steal a quote from The Cynical Brit, "if Velma is meant to be representative of Indians, then she is the worst thing to happen to India since the British". They're just riding that card to try and bully critics and consumers into choosing between buying their product, or looking like terrible human beings.
That all said, a big problem with the "strong female character" is they're hard to identify with, because they are so dehumanized. And that's not a gender thing either, like good luck identifying with a man written like the strong female character archetype. Like this video showed, we identify with flaws and weakness a lot more easily than we identify with a paragon. I, as a man, identified with Katara and Toph no problem, even when they have exclusively "girl" problems like being talked down to by men or not feeling "pretty enough" -- I certainly don't know what it's like to be a girl, but those feelings of being condescended to because of some arbitrary personal trait, or to feel like I'm not good enough because other people of some arbitrary group I belong to are better, are universal so I identify with that no problem. In fact, I think people worry too much about needing members of their own demographic to appeal to, because I've never had a problem identifying with female or white protagonists, or even getting so invested in their stories I can see myself in their role. It's why too, everyone's favorite moment with Captain Marvel is when she takes the Infinity Gauntlet from Spider Man: it's the only time she's ever been depicted as a person rather than a token character. She's not peacocking around to look tough, she's not challenging anyone to look more powerful, she's not just being this impossibly powerful flying brick shithouse; she sees a kid who desperately pushed himself beyond his limit and just gives this little moment of levity where she seems impressed by what he's done, helps him out, and even comforts him a little.
Oh yeah, I think a lot of those first "strong women hating men" archetypes from the 90's were written by men not getting feminism or strong women. Or women.
This kind of makes me think, is femininity disappearing completely nowadays?
When that 'strong female protagonist' archetype completely embraces the toxic masculinity, doens't that mean that more and more people are fully into belief that femininity traits are to be fully avoided because they are perceived by the society as a mere annoyance and signs of weakness?
That implication honestly makes me kind of worried, considering that the other half of the aspects of perceived strength are traditionally feminine characteristics - like being compassionate, caring etc. which is nowadays just being thrown out of the window because of the crappy belief that all need to be strong the one and only way, which is just toxic masculinity
Probably one of my favorite parts is when Toph is drowning and gets saved by Suki but thinks it’s Saka. Toph then gets excited and kisses Suki by accident, hinting she has a girly crush on Saka. I love moments like these with Toph because it reminds us that no matter how much of tomboy Toph is, she’s still a normal little girl with normal feelings and need 😂
I’ve seen the entirety of this show 5 times
It’s so damn good
Sameeeee
At some point, it’d be great to see you discuss Sokka’s character arc, and/or the development of both platonic and extraplatonic relationships in this show and why they work so well when many kids and adult shows alike struggle with portraying realistic friendships and relationships 🙂 awesome video, as usual!
Edit: I wrote this before your shameless teaser for the future Sokka video 😂
LMAO
Since Sokka is my favorite avatar character i am eagerly looking forward to this video.
Sokka also mastered each nations non bending fighting styles. In his own way he mastered the "elements" of each nation and became one of the most capable non-bending warriors out there. The dude was holding his own against firebenders during sozins comet! His character to me is all about a boy who through maturing and the circumstance of his setting and place within it, becomes a strong and capable man and warrior for his friends and tribe. The pinnacle of his journey being his transition from soldier to servant leader.
@@EliteElk221 so, hes kinda the batman of avatar XD
Just a dude overcoming imposibble odds, minus the costume. (He does have a wolf helmet tho, so wolfman?)
@@just1luckyguy229 But definitely not at first. He had to grow into that role. The first time we see Sokka fight, Zuko easily dispatches him without even firebending. Maybe he's the Nightwing of Avatar, then?
I especially like Toph. I'm a dude but in my teens I related and looked up to her just as much as I did to any male hero. I didn't reflect much on that she was a girl. Obviously she was but she was just Toph to me, the greatest earth bender in the world.
Exactly. Now these right wing types are obsessing over it all, having so much hate and fixation over strong characters who are female, it always has to tie to a "woke agenda" for them.
Same here, she was/is so incredible that you forget she's a girl, she's the greatest earthbender even in her late years, old woman Toph still beat the crap out of Korra and Kuvira
4:48
i think another reason toph was able to trust zuko is because of iroh. in "the chase" episode she had a one on one conversation with iroh about how much he cares for his nephew and how he wants zuko to do better. so when toph witnesses iroh's wish coming true, she decides to be more trustful.
15:10 Independence should not mean 'the freedom to do whatever we want with no consequences', but rather, 'the freedom to do what we should'.
I appreciate videos like this that continue to prove that it isn’t that we “can’t handle a strong female character” but are just sick of the bland characters when we grew up with good female characters like these.
Modern Female Protagonists are given the power and have the knowledge required to fulfill their entire quest. Most of the old Female Protagonists had to work to get their power. They had to study, learn, strive, and experience trials and tribulations to become the respected characters we know now. Modern Writers have zero clue that the troubles are what makes the character become more in depth. Carve the stone, instead of cutting away at it
Great video. I would say that the majority of writers in movies/shows are male and they often forget that women may face the same or similar struggles in our lives. As a woman I can relate to male characters a lot even though some experiences differ but so can men relate to women. Once we set aside differences and think of characters as having more universal traits and experiences, that's when good writing is coming to light. Then next is fleshing out your character, showing them at the beginning struggling, learning from their mistakes on their way and so on eventually mastering a skill. ATLA is just brilliant at this, as both male and female characters are shown with the same qualities such as a strong or talented person, or a very compassionate, smart but not physically strong. Also, both genders of character undergo similar experiences and struggles. One of the reasons why I love the show so much. Thank you for a fantastic analysis!
I never even thought about how Toph learned sand bending. It totally slipped my mind that she once struggled with it but it was later showed she was more comfortable on sand and was able to bend it with precision later on.
Another phenomenal example of strong female characters comes from Arcane! Vi, Jinx, and Caitlin and even Mel Medarda are all fantasticly written strong but flawed female characters that portray different aspects of femininity
I didn't enjoy Arcane because it has a sad ending, but it is FANTASTICALLY well written. I haven't seen such good writing since ATLA.
I had to scroll way too far to see someone bring up Arcane and its female characters
The characters from the show "The Owl House" would also be great examples, they're even modern and in the cartoon field for a better comparison of past/current females characters in fiction. Edit, the ones from Encanto too, actually. And surely several other cartoons.
@@cailin5301
You’re afraid of sad endings? 😂
Better not see Attack on Titan’s Special part 2.
@@soysource3218 thanks for the warning, I'll keep that in mind 😄
I love how the clips show what you are talking about! Appreciated!!
Ok but... I did see the Aragorn parallel coming! I had just watched your Aragorn video so the hands of a healer quote was on the brain. A great comparison. This is probably the best video I've seen on this subject, thank you.
It just occurred to me that an early hint that Katara could be heading down a Hama-like path in the Southern Raiders is the comb she is using to brush her hair when Zuko tells her he knows who killed her mother.
You should definitely do a video on Soka! He had zero abilities yet was essential to the group in his own way. He was even given an appropriate episode for his improvement of training with the final war. I think in the beginning he was sad and maybe a bit jealous he didnt have crazy abilities and didnt feel loke he belonged in the group but he later grew to accept himself
amazing video.
it all makes sense now
I would like to officially coin this "the superwoman paradox"
the writing of female character in an unrealistically powerful way
---
your video actually almost made me cry (I said almost (says while suckin' em tears back in) )
I've never related with Toph that much, but hearing you explain how Toph's independence manifested in an unhealthy self-reliance, I see that reflecting in myself.
I guess it comes from being more of a Katara, even as a dude - trusting and caring really easily and having that trust and compassion ripped through or not accepted .. multiple times
I don't fully know how or when I'll work through it or change it, but for now .. at least I've recognized it.
thank you for that.
This channel is so underrated wtf? The video was so well framed and all the points were so well written including the narration was on point. This needs more recognition man
Wow. Just wow. Well done with this! It continues to blow my mind just how good ATLA was, let alone the fact it was a Nickelodeon show. I don't mean to look at it through rose-tinted glasses, but the depth of the characters and their consistency is astounding, especially for a kids show. Furthermore, the subtle progression of their characters was handled beautifully considering that the show as designed to be watched with the expectation that viewers might be seeing episodes out of order. It's worth remembering that delivery format used to have a major impact on shows, and it wasn't a guarantee that any particular viewer had seen the previous episode, or several episodes before that. Just masterfully done. I wish I was a Fire Lord and had power from a comet, but I guess my missiles will do.
8:38 "virtue is desirable for both sexes but they are typically expressed in different ways"
Really love that line
Hi! I've never seen your channel before, so I guess it's time to binge! I absolutely LOVE this kind of content!! I've been writing novels since I was 8 years old, and it's such a passion of mine to build, break, and cherish good characters. Thank you so much for putting in the love and effort to show how much the quality of well-built characters should be appreciated! ^^
This character analysisnor whatever is this called is so good man. You did suc a great job analyzing every detail of the characters. You gave so much dept to the series that I wanted to rewatch it again. You have a new sub!!!
I completely agree about how important nuance and depth are for character writing.
However, I really think it should be pointed how people complain about flawless female protagonists far more often than male ones. Goku is the most boring character ever but the nostalgia bias shield him from anything, for example.
omg yes
you're absolutely correct, thank you for saying this! I feel that people see super perfect/super bad male characters for what they are: characters who represent the creators message, but I often see the perfect female protagonist/the asshole unlikable female protagonists held to an impossible standard. I personally think it's a mix of men being viewed as the default gender, and female characters having to bear the burden of representing their entire sex.
@@heehoopeanut420 Yup, because female characters cannot fully break away from the gender norm. I think, this video is a perfect example because the OP constantly tied everything back to femininity or feminine traits, so it felt more about Toph’s and Katara showing feminine characteristics and less about them as female characters.
I agree on the second point, but I see lack of development and flaws being complained about in the same amount. Maybe my groups aren't the average tho
Idk why you hate on Goku 😂 The reason why people love him despite being one dimensional is because he doesn't shit on other characters being weaker or stronger than him. Moreover, he's a meme machine (especially when he bickers with Vegeta lol), which makes him all the while loveable.
You may never see this, but i would really like you do analyze Sokka as a "Youth" or "youthful male" Done right. He embodies so much of the innate elements that makes a youth and aspiring adult, what they truly are in such a healthy way instead of just being relegated to a mere "comic relief" part of Sokka's charm is his innate goofiness and immaturity but he definetly grows tremendously trough the series. Seeing your take on his youthful energy would be great.
Love love love the Katara-Aragon parallel. As a man I’ve seen Aragorn held as a great example of true and supportive masculinity and your comparing Katara’s powerful feminist to this is a great illustration.
Well put and thoroughly done! ATLA writing with female characters were WAAAAY ahead of its time. My favorite quote from this show that really empowers female is when Suki told Sokka on Season 1 that she can be a girl AND fight. 👏👏👏
I didn't see the Katara/Aragorn parallel coming but I genuinely appreciated it. I wish the movies gave that thought even a line of attention.
While we are on the topic of strong female characters, I really appreciate you mentioning Kim Waxler from Better Call Saul.
In the show, Kim never appears to be excessively self-assured, self-centered, or as one who outshines the primary protagonists. Kim is a flawed character in her own right, and the viewers can empathize with her, support her, and even feel disappointed by her decisions. In numerous aspects, Kim is equally intelligent and astute as Saul. She stands shoulder to shoulder with Jimmy.
Kim’s defining character traits, is her unwavering perseverance. When Kim was blamed when Jimmy decides to air a unauthorized commercial, Kim works tirelessly to get on good terms with Howard. She contacts dozens of false leads on potential clients, and stumbles upon the million dollar lottery ticket with Mesa Verde.
When her hard work was not appreciated by Howard, she left HHM, to pursue her own solo legal practice, where she eventually became a well respected attorney representing Mesa Verde and having her own department and associates.
However, her flaw lies in her attraction and interest towards Jimmy's immoral scams and schemes. When Jimmy roped her into a con where they assumed different personas to dupe wealthy individuals into buying them drinks, Kim relished the power and control it gave her.
Over time, Kim began to flirt dangerously close with Jimmy's schemes, to the point where she became the driving force behind many of them in pursuit of her goals. She found herself drawn to and even admiring Jimmy's cleverness and cunning. In a way similar to Star Wars, Kim was pulled towards the dark side, enticed by the allure of power and control, and craving more.
Kim's strength as a female protagonist does not solely stem from her success as a lawyer or her status as Jimmy's equal. Rather, it is her character development that sets her apart as a powerful figure. Through her negative actions, she evolves into someone who strives to make things right by the end of the series. She refuses to let others suffer while she leads a happy life in Florida. Her actions, both positive and negative, have shaped her into a determined individual who seeks to do justice for the dead by speaking the truth.
That’s what makes her special in my eyes.
I'm glad I found your channel via the Iroh video
I feel you have a LOT of insightful things to say and I'm glad to see your videos focusing on positive constructive character dissection
This is such an amazing analysis I lovee this show, I love these characters so thank you for taking the time to delve into what makes them so special. You articulated it so well.
I talked to a friend about this topic just a few days ago. You perfectly summarized our whole discussion about females in media and Katara/Toph as a positive example.
Well said, well said indeed. I would only add that another issue with the modern, invincible female is also their constant rudeness. Regardless of gender, people don't identify with a protagonist who is nearly always rude to everyone.
YES. Oh my gosh I can't stand watching GaladRIEL scoff and yell at everyone like they're all a bunch of idiotic peasants.
A protagonist who is always rude and looks down to everyone, and yet almost everyone still happens to like her because of reasons. Definitely someone with whom real people can identify...
Velma (the new one). So abrasive
Depends on how the character is handled. A good example of this is luke from a JRPG called tales of the abyss
Toph is literally the definition of this. You guys are off your rockers
i LOVE these videos so much. i'll be impatiently waiting for your take on Sokka!!
Well I've got good news for you.
Beautifully stated and great video !❤
Thank you, I’ve been saying this for a long time. I am sick and tired of seeing women suddenly become strong and portrayed as invincible or “girl bosses” in films. There are inherent strengths that women/mothers have that aren’t portrayed enough but need to.
That's why I love Katara's character. She's shown to always be practicing her craft and is very observant and learns a lot from the journeys. She has probably one of the most fleshed out bending evolutions in atla and it's amazing to see how creative and strategic her methods become over time.
@@Semylimboo but what I also love about Katara is that it isn't just her bending that makes her amazing. It's also her caring and nurturing personality. Tenderness can be a great strength.
@@cailin5301 yes i love those characteristics too, my comment was more so to show that Katara didn't suddenly become strong and struggled many times failed too and learned from setbacks. I love that atla shows us how it's inspiring to see that strength comes from many places.
Another expertly crafted video! While watching this I kept having a thought about how much these characters bounce off of each other matters and how many people it takes to raise a single person but that's a little beyond the scope for me at the moment. As usual I await your next video with bated breath.
Very well made video! Thank you!
And something about these two and their different authentic representations of femininity is they also learn from each other. Toph learns how to be open to love and care and support through kataras unwavering love and care and support, and kataras learns to stand her ground more steadily through tophs stubbornness getting out of trouble. Kataras learning to stand her ground from toph is shown in her bending against hama in the puppetmaster. The quick turn to a wide stance and stiff but quick thrust of her arm, stopping the water hama is bending at her and shoving it back like a rock stopping a wave from crashing into the shore is a wonderful sight but also shows that katara was learning from toph. Just like iroh said about learning from fellow benders of a different kind can make a bender whole. Aang learns all four elements, sokka learns non-bending fighting styles from all four nations, and toph and katara learn how to implement other bending styles into their bending styles to become stronger benders. It's really neat to see.
"Knowing others is intelligence;
knowing yourself is true wisdom.
Mastering others is strength;
mastering yourself is true power." Tao Te Ching
I feel like these words are best embodied in the power of Katara. In so far as she has the ability to bloodbend any enemy, and yet often makes a conscious moral decision not to. It is not a choice that is restricted by gender, but rather, by conscience.