Indian Motorcycle Sales down for second year in a row
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- Опубліковано 15 жов 2024
- #Indian #harleydavidson #sales
Indian motorcycle sales are down for the second year in a row. There is a double digit percentage drop. Let's take a look at the numbers of register Indian bikes and what Polaris needs to do change things.
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I've owned a Scout since 2017 and ran the UK's flagship Victory dealership in 2004/5 so I do have some insight on this - albeit from a UK/European perspective:
Victory was a tough brand to sell. Yes, the bikes were good, but the styling was already dated when the Hammer & Jackpot came out and the only people who really bought them were riders who did not want a Harley.
Inventory was limited - especially outside the US - and there were lots of old models to clear before we could get the latest bikes. I personally sold a couple of the last (original) V92C bikes which were 2 model years old.
The Octane showed great promise, but even when it was available, the (then) new Indian Scout was a better all-round bike - even though it lacked the performance of the Octane.
Scout sales took off here in the UK The Harley-Davidson Sportster line was an anachronism by comparison and Indian dealers here in the UK sold every Scout and Scout 60 they could get.
The Indian name soon established themselves and only the die-hard Victory fans and the ignorant bemoaned the switch to the Indian branding.
The (original) Chief and Chieftain did sell, but not in big numbers, and everyone rated them over Street Glides in just about every metric.
The new Chief is selling well. FTR is selling well and all the Scout variants fly off the dealership floors.
The European market is different to North America: finance penetration is lower and big, heavy tourers are not so well suited to twisty European roads as (say) a BMW tourer.
The Harley-Davidson Sportster S and Nightster have not sold so well over here. I know a number of riders who chose Scouts over these and even bikes like the Softtail Standard & Fatbob; the handling is so much better.
But just as the Indian Challenger, Pursuit and Roadmaster have raised the game and Harley-Davidson responded, Indian now have to respond to the tech & performance of the Sportster S and Nightster.
Next week, the new Scout range will be launched and it'll be interesting to see what they've done.
What is also interesting is the 'Scout 101' name that has been held on copyright:
The US market is in decline for both Indian & Harley for all the reasons you gave here, and both brands need to look towards Asian & European markets to sell more bikes.
The Scout 101 could be a new, small Indian; something to compete with bikes like the Royal Enfield Shotgun & Super Meteor, Honda Rebel 500 and even the new Triumph 400s.
Smaller, cheaper bikes are less reliant on finance to sell them and appeal across the vast developing Asian Markets.
Polaris are well placed to form strategic partnerships with other Mfrs (they did this with KTM once before) and may well manufacture more bikes outside the US.
Harley, by comparison, seems to be doubling down on big, expensive luxury bikes - maybe encouraged by how those Bentley & Lamborghini special Ducati Diavels sold out so quickly.
I wish them luck with that. Livewire is not doing well and H-D are not making the most of their partnership with QJ Moto in China.
I don't think Indian will overtake H-D for the foreseeable future unless the MoCo goes bust.
I used to say that would never happen, but these days I'm not so sure...
I still prefer Indian over HD. HD made some huge leaps for 24 which is great, but everything they added has been on other brands for years. Now they do a great job at it, style and all, but it's nothing ground breaking. I get annoyed that they focus on the touring bike and baggers. I love Softails and they just get the shaft. New paint job and a couple tiny changes and a price increase is all they get. The new sportsters are the absolute most uncomfortable bikes I have ridden in a long time. The PanAm is a great start for the ADV market and I hope they work out the minor details on that. I have 4 different brands in the garage, including Indian and HD. The Harley get's ridden the least. In the end, ride what makes you smile. We can get annoyed and brand loyal and go back and forth, but we need more folks on two wheels, period. Brand doesn't really matter.
Well said. And if I may add that it's not what you ride, but that you ride!
When I started riding a 750 was considered big and a 1000 was considered huge. The experience was pure and simple. Now it seems like bikes are just getting too big, too expensive, and too much tech.
My bike is an older Harley but if I was going to buy something brand new it wouldn't be Harley or Indian. I would probably take a look at Triumph.
I did!! Sold my Street Glide and bought a Triumph Tiger adventure bike. The best bike I have ever owned. I got tired of all the HD image crap.
what did this 'image crap' do to you?@@DavidBlack-z6t
With the changes Harley made this year, the ball is really back in Indians court to come up with something. Harley is now basically every bit as good as the comperable Indian. And yeah the Indian today is the original Indian only in name.
I own two Indians and what I see is Bike and parts and labor prices are getting more unafordable. Credit cards are at their limits. Interest rates are very high. It's no wonder sales are down.
I think everyone that wanted an Indian has bought one.
In this pathetic economy who can afford anything? Not to mention high interest rates.
I got a used Sportster and can't afford the gas to ride it!
Who wants to buy a motorcycle when they want 8% financing. The economy is in the tank. The FED wanted to slow it down, and they did.
lol..the economy is roaring...unemployment is at its lowest level in decades.
@@barrybarnes96 at least the prices of vehicles will drop about 10 grand
I almost bought a victory but the financing fell through at the last minute but they approved me for a Harley. One month later victory shut down suddenly. This is why I'm hesitant to invest in an Indian. Polaris might do it again.
All the parts you need for Victory are still available for purchase. You can get all the service you need at Indian Motorcycle. No one who worked for Victory Motorcycle lost their job. They all work for Indian Motorcycle now. Indian Motorcycle is not shutting down its production, as some competitors - (who are moving production to Asia) People can trust Polaris. Stop worrying, instead take the plunge on an Indian Motorcycle. Very few regret it.
Likely because You can be held accountable for your statements, you told the facts as they appeared to you along with a fair amount of basic research. The Cadilac of today is Not the same car of the 1950's or 60's.... etc. Nor is Ford, etc, etc..... So to say Indian is not the same Motocycle as it was in 1901 or in 1953 or 2003 is true. Recognize as well that an early Kawasaki or Honda or H.D. is also Not the same bike as those manufactured antiques. Folks who like H.D. emblazoned on their merch , jackets, shirts, etc. are also enthused about that brand, as are You. We can agree that's all well and fine. We therefore can't blame Indian brand riders for their support of their bikes and such. Indian riders already know that H.D. is bigger than Indian. Does that make 'bigger is better"? With that logic, Honda which sells more bikes than all others, must be ... not good, not better, but best. That idea doesnt hold water. If a company is in financial trouble, let them take steps to correct it rather than up prices that are presently thru the roof. That goes for all of them including H.D. In conclusion, I will stick with my INDIAN Vintage of 2014 mfg. That's right I bought used. Reason? I do not like paying premium prices, unreasonable surcharges, heavy taxation, ( and you can add a few more to that list if you wish) ..... when I can acquire, upon good hunting/shopping, an item at a fair price. ........
Great report! New stuff coming in 2025...
They really don't make anything that is unique outside of the FTR 1200... the rest of the lineup are simply copies of what H-D offers.
Have you studied this carefully? The Indian Scout was different from what Harley had. The Indian Challenger was and is different from what Harley-Davidson has, (and created the performance bagger class) - As for the air-cooled machines, there are similarities. Harley set the standard for the classes, Indian Motorcycle improved the standards. Is the ball now in Indian Motorcycle's corner? Absolutely. Renewal is coming. On April 2, the first ones arrive.
There are a lot of people that does not trust Polaris after they killed off Victory.
The lack of dealerships also hurts Indian. I do not see Indian ever surpassing Harley.
I do like Indian competeing with Harley.
In my opinion the challenger is the only Indian that can compete with Harley.
Now that the Road Glide has the 117 along with the new styling. The Road Glide moved
back ahead of the Challenger.
No one who worked for Victory lost their job. They all work for Indian Motorcycle now. Indian Motorcycle is not shutting down its production, as some competitors who are moving production to Asia are doing. People can trust Polaris. The Indian Scout was different from what Harley had. The Indian FTR has no competition from Harley-Davidson. The Indian Challenger was and is different from everything Harley-Davidson has, (and created the performance bagger class) - As for the air-cooled machines, there are similarities. Harley set the standard for the classes, Indian Motorcycle improved the standards. Is the ball now in Indian Motorcycle's corner? Absolutely. It will be so for a long time to come. Anyway - Renewal is coming. On April 2, the first ones arrive.
@@mosgor People that do not trust Polaris is because they left them with bikes that the brand disappeared. Nobody wants an orphaned brand.
I think the Bobbers are beautiful! I wouldn’t buy an Indian because I feel for what you get they are over priced. The seat sucks, pipes are ugly, no accessories, just a basic bike, which I like but at a basic bike price.
The Indian Scout Bobber has an excellent seat, the aftermarket is growing, pretty much every aftermarket parts supplier now has Indian Motorcycle parts. A Bobber is by its very nature a basic motorcycle. Who doesn't change the exhaust on an Indian Motorcycle... or a Harley-Davidson? In terms of price, Indian Motorcycle is in the same landscape as a Harley-Davidson. Stay tuned on April 2.
I bought an Indian from the tucson dealership. But the salesmen robbed me. I'm a disabled veteran, beginner rider. And I had 1 guy Sergei, telling me all these discounts I was going to get for being a veteran. Lower warranty prices, 200 dollar in store credit. Just sounded great. But the floor manager Maverick was writing the contract. Then he came out and I signed it like an idiot. Then I heard Maverick say, "I didn't know he was a veteran" and that's when I knew I got robbed. Paying full price on warranty which is 6k more than what I was told and no 200 in store credit. Very upsetting. I wrote that on the Indian review email I got. Now they mad dog me when I go there for servicing
The problem with Indian sales going down is since Polaris makes so many other products, if they lose money on their motorcycles, they can shut down motorcycle manufacturing and remain in business. That's what they did with Victory. When they started losing money 2 years in a row, they shut it down. They'll do the same with Indian except they can sell the name again.
Has HD closed any dealers in the last 2 years ? Just curious. Seems it was just yesterday everyone was singing the swan song for Harley. They FINALLY came out with some decent bikes in 2023 / 2024 and the sales took a bump. Indian will compete and then HD will be behind the 8 ball again.
HD closed those dealers because they weren’t selling enough new bikes and didn’t want to abide by the new Harley rules.those dealers were using the name only and focusing on used bikes and a few had some shading financials. Those dealerships lost their franchise. Not uncommon for a company to do this.
You can’t even pronounce Polaris correctly you lost all credibility, Indian has forced HD to finally bring a decent bike to the game in 2024 still don’t have a electric windshield
Great information
A recent Indian purchase, I nearly walked out when they showed me the paperwork and wanted to charge $1300 for a "build charge"...umm, really, to what, put handlebars and a light on it out of the crate? Then was told that's a 12-13 hour process from opening to rolling it on the floor....but then the truth came out from the salesman, "yeah, that's BS, it's about 4 hours" haha
Wow. Ride safe my friend
Polaris didn't buy the rights to the Excelsior-Henderson bike. Both brands were launched about the same time in the late nineties the engines are totally different. Indian were in the black last year even with downward sales which everyone is experiencing right new. The Scout is what got them there and they are releasing a redesigned Scout this year. Harley's Sportster is hideous so they don't have a good entry level bike currently and entry level bikes create upper level riders in the future. Both brands are great and I hope we get to enjoy them long in the future.
HD ambassadors have to focus on how those new CVO lines aren’t working. lol
Good thing I’m not an ambassador for anyone 🤣🤣. Ride safe my friend
@@RoadRushNation you say that but all the HD poker chips tell me you’re biased. lol
@Grim_Underground86 no it just shows how much traveling I’ve done. And yes I have a Harley but had that before Polaris Indian was a company. I watch all motorcycle companies to see what’s happening. No manufacturer is perfect and at anytime I could get another make. Just spent last week buying a new bike and it wasn’t a Harley. Ride safe my friend and enjoy whatever you ride
Nice report
Harley is much bigger. Indian lacks a dealer network that hurts. My local store closed. I have no love lost for Polaris after they screwed me over with victory.
The new 24 Harleys are a game changer, Indian has to step it up big time or they will always be behind HD
Harley-Davidson is catching up to Indian Motorcycle, but things are happening at Indian Motorcycle, Big things. Pay attention. It starts on April 2. AND there is more to come.
@mosgor slightly agree there, however they're all copying HD, Indian sales are down while HD are selling out. Both make a nice machine though✌️
@@Rpm68 Indian Motorcycles Gained Share in 2023 and Poised to Grow Share and Expand Margins in 2024. N.A. Indian Motorcycle lost modest share overall: gained share in mid-size and lost share in heavy-weight. Market share is ~11% ...Have you studied this carefully? Indian FTR... Harley got nothing like that one. The Indian Scout was different from what Harley had. The Indian Challenger was and is different from what Harley-Davidson has, (and created the factory performance bagger class) - As for the air-cooled machines, there are similarities. Harley set the standard for the classes, Indian Motorcycle improved the standards. Is the ball now in Indian Motorcycle's corner? Absolutely. Renewal is coming. On April 2, the first ones arrive. Harley-Davidson Sales has been continuously decreasing since at least 2006, when it is now increasing it is compared to during the pandemic. Sales have continued to decline. Since Indian Motorcycle re-entered the scene under Polaris, Indian Motorcycle has increased sales every year except the last two, - But the losses have been far less than for Harley-Davidson. Indian counts bikes sold to consumers, Harley- Davidson counts bikes sold to dealers.
@@Rpm68 Harley Davidson’s are not selling out. Both brands charge too much money for their motorcycles, regardless of inflation. They could be said of all of the manufacturers, both automobile, and motorcycles right now. I’ve never gone for the Harley hype though of all the “old” brands I believe only Triumph is doing things correctly. Just my opinion and I know where everybody’s vary.
Indian Motorcycles Gained Share in 2023 and Poised to Grow Share and Expand Margins in 2024. N.A. Indian Motorcycle lost modest share overall: gained share in mid-size and lost share in heavy-weight. Market share is ~11% ... Could it be interesting to hear about Harley-Davidson Sales? How have sales been since Indian Motorcycle re-entered the scene? As for whether Indian motorcycles are the same as in 1901? They are about as much the same as Harley-Davidson are the same. Owners come owners go. Who owns the brand changes. The legends remain. Indian Motorcycle will continue its growth.
Polaris was building victory motorcycles 13 years before they acquired indian. Which were basically rebadged victorys in the beginning. So their not that new to street bike manufacturing
Repo rates are affected by a number of things, like the quality of near NINJA type loan originations and aggressive sales/lending tactics ie: upselling, ..and lagging fall out from temporary economic dislocation, like COVID, that can and do disrupt people's financial planning.
*NINJA loans = no income, no job or assets
I would never buy one. Who knows how long they will be around. I dont trust Polaris will stand behind Indian.
Inflation is going to hurt
They should stick to making ATVs .. Plastic junk everything on a Indian feels cheap...
Ive owned 3 indians over the past 6 years, 80k miles across 40 states. Im officially done with Indian until they comeout with something different. There is nearly ZERO aftermarket support for Indian. Nearly ZERO performance parts available. Because of that Indian became boring for me, which is a shame because stock for stock I believe Indian builds a superior motorcycle. Unfortunately that lack of aftermarket support means being able to customize an Indian is nearly impossible.
Did you just get the Internet? The power plus has a 112 big bore, multiple different cam options, exhaust etc. People are getting 160+whp/140wtq depending on tune. The thunderstrokes have up to 131ci big bores, cams etc making 180wtq. The market is not saturated like Harley but there are definitely options to make impressive customizations for such a new platform.
@jasonp1177 1 company, LLOYDZ makes anything for the Indians. The thunderstroke had been on the market for 9 years with no real support. I wrench on motorcycles every single day, I'm aware of what's on the market.
And S&S makes everything for Harley.@@STLNik
@justingrady1964 I can name a dozen companies that make cams for Harleys so you're argument fails. Not a single one of you have made a successful counter argument. I love indian but the lack of support is killing them, Same reason people rejected victory.
The reason there are a dozen cam choices is because it is a requirement for those bikes. I don't see the appeal of buying a 30 grand bike and having to open up the engine to get more power. Maybe more do than not I guess. My argument, would be not setting fire to my hard earned dollars on needless engine mods. My opinion, which means nothing like most. @@STLNik
Not any more since Harley went woke!!!!!
True but Polaris went woke in 2019. So those reacting to just jump ship traded one woke for another. Ride safe my friend
Do you believe in the tooth fairy too? This is total trash...
Bidenomics
100% agree
😂 what a BS video. Just a while ago Indian announced that for the first time finally they made a profit. Sure they hurt 😂. HD released 2024 that barely close the gap with Indian, but Indian releases new Scout in just a few day and announced new bigger engines for other models for 2025.
You do understand the difference between sales and profit right? Indian finally made a profit in 2023 but that just proves the point that Polaris has been financially supported the brand. Most companies can’t go 12 years without a profit and still be in business. Ride safe my friend.
Apart from whatever corporate mis-steps Indian is making, Indian (and HD) appeal primarily to a specific* and aging demographic. That big hump in the demographic bell curve that represents the *majority* of the people who buy Indian is constantly moving to the right along the bottom axis that represents the increase in people's age. The middle of that moving hump is now hovering over the 68-75 year old mark. They ain't buying Scouts or anything else. The 22-28 year olds that Indian uses in its marketing promotions do not represent the vast majority of the people who have been buying Indians since their recent inception.
Also, the huge availability of 2nd hand Indian & Harley bikes is now a buyers market with all the old guys kicking off or no longer able to ride. Lots of 'late model' used HDs and Indians available for 60% the price of new ones. That's gonna hurt new Indian sales.
*That group of people (baby boomers) that love and identify with heritage Americana motorcycles.
-The economy is booming. The unemployment rate is down to record levels and has been for the last 2 years.
Wow, this economy is not booming.
harley down 11%,
That number you’re quoting is a comparison of Q4 2023 to Q4 2022. Not the overall year. Yes sales are down but for Harley they are down 5% for the year
@@RoadRushNation q4 2023,
2024 might be as bad, dealers are adding to many surcharges to the sell, i been riding harleys for over 45 years. no way i would buy a new one, till things get better, my dealer is stacked to the wall with bikes
how about lower the prices a bit..