Fair play doing this job would break my heart I honestly think expanding foam is best for trays Level it up with window packers then get plenty of foam so it fills all gaps Also put silicone on bottom of the tray Some folk will have issue with this as there is this thing about foam being rough but it’s never failed me Flexible tile adhesive also a good way but foam is great for the job
Weak sand and cement mix 6/1 with a bit of SBR mixed in and prime the ply with SBR, sometimes you have to beef up the joists under the tray, make sure it’s solid, most probably a faulty tray mate but they won’t admit to it, the quality of everything nowadays has gone.
My trays get fitted on a 3x2 frame, never had any problems. Eliminates messing with sand and cement and easier to fit and get access to the waste, 4 inch Plinth along the front job done
Well done mate sorting it all out for the customer , the design of having the outlet in the middle of the tray where the users are going to stand is a bad idea , again very well done.
Nice one Luke, must be a weight off your mind. I use 5:1 sand & cement with plastisicer, as you say its not to stick the tray but to seat it. I like to put in down in mole hills of mortar and rock it level. Tile adhesive is all well and good but if its too well stuck the hot water will cause a large tray to expand and we don't want stresses on an already paper thin tray. I ditch all wastes that come with a tray and use Mcalpine but I wish they did one with a high enough trap to prevent having to keyhole the ply.
Thanks mate, your spot on with saying it’s not suppose to stick, lot of people think the tray needs to stick solid to floor when the idea is it’s for support mainly and doesn’t need to adhere to tray 👍
Fair play that's gutting 😢 that reminds me why I don't do bathrooms. No wonder that tray manufacturer went bust. I wonder if the sand and cement sinks a little when it drys? Anyway can't beat Mira 🎉
Luke you did a wicked job replacing it❤. We make a timber frame then ply so it’s not sat flat on floor so any problems with trap can be accessed. Absolute ballache of a job though
Thanks mate, reputation over profit for me, I always put myself in customers shoes and if that had happened to me and someone said not there fault I wouldn’t be happy, good result in the end 👍
I use what the manufactures say can be used last time I am sure I rang them and asked and they said use pink grip! I try not to get involved in bathrooms anymore so much risk involved installing bathrooms! Well done for getting it done feel for you on this one.
well handled, customer has picked a crap tray there and you've been stitched up, I will learn from this going forward if they want anything other than my recommended brands I'll let them supply it, but I feel even if they had they would have put it down to installation. I use packers and a high 100mm centre spot bed of silicone, I've used tile adhesive in the past but if your fitting in an alcove your gonna struggle to lay the tray without wrecking your bed, your due some good luck mate
I would be suprised if the manufacturer asks you to seal behind the screen profile. Be careful as a lot have internal drainage and sealing behind can cause problems. Top job from a fellow plumber 👍
@@petespencer5260 being old school (due to my age 71), I would first of all make sure the timber floor is sound ie no excessive “bounce” which would either be due to not enough noggins or too big of a expanse on the joists. Then ensure floor boards are properly screwed down (not nailed) then 3/4” quality ply again screwed with minimum 3" screws and glued not nailed through the boards and into the joists first of all piloting through both the ply and boards so that the screw is properly engaged in the joist. I always prime the ply with real primer not pva glue. All this is just my opinion which over the last 54 years has never let me down and never had a call back. Did my last one last week, took a bath out and fitted a low profile walk in shower shower tray and glass. Not to say there isn’t other ways of doing it but this is how I do.
@@petehayward7478can't beat old shool Pete. I'm half your age but learnt with my dad. Would you always use sabd/cement to lay your trays on..? Most I pull up these days been glued down with silicone or similar.. I always find first fixing the wastes the annoying part.. Tempted to maybe use a flexicon on my next one to give a bit more help. Best wishes
Very well done boys, totally feel your pain. This video is the best advert for your skill and integrity, you are obviously a very nice man. Next one, try mounting the shower tray on 18mm cement board. You won't get any flexing at all. Also if you can get a good seal use double glazing suckers to be able to manipulate the tray and shower glass in place. I bed trays on fixa foam and fixall grab adhesive. Also i always use a McAlpine 40mm flexi on shower tray wastes, then you can crank it up at an angle when the top collar goes in... Love the channel...
Thanks for the advice mate really appreciated 🙌👍 unfortunate for customer as they have had to suffer without a shower but I know what you mean, I like customers to know and see the after care we do, this is a bad situation but all got resolved in end with no cost to customer 👍
Well done going back geez 👍🏻 I like seeing people do things differently. I’ve always put cement board down with tile adhesive. But sand and cement why not.
Just started using flexi tile adhesive, don’t know if it helps bud, when I’m positioning a glass screen into a profile I put some ply or soft wood on the tray so you don’t scratch as you get the top part of the glass in , the rest of the glass then follows and you take out the wood carefully ( watch ya fingers) but saves a scratch or scuff and just lower the glass down o t the tray. 👍 good job mate!
When I fitted my ensuite I bought a Kaldewei 1500 x 850 steel shower tray, they tell you to use a Soudal 2K structural foam to fix the tray down. The tray submerges into the floor and they template 8 x 20cm discs of foam...I would really recommend the tray.
Im about to fit a tray like this - its a Crosswater Vito - the instructions say to either mortar bed or silicone.... ive laid a piece of 18mm ply over the whole area making sure its level and well supported - ill be sticking the tray down to it using stixall - despite all the prep and following the instructions to the letter the idea of the tray cracking after ive got everything in is completely unbearable it must be a relief for you to have it over with - thanks for the video which has helped me prep but also fuelled my anxiety!
Take plenty of pictures of how you fit it and what you use, I did but didn’t count for nothing in the end…all you can do is prep it the best you can mate, sounds like your doing it spot on to be honest, all the best with it mate 👍👍
Fair play mate was waiting on this one, absolutely outstanding work. I can only imagine how hard it was working in that bathroom without making more work for yourself. 10 out of 10 !
Amazing job 💙 above and beyond knew how much it meant to you put it behind you you did and dealt with it amazingly professionally promptly and 100% well done to both of you 😊👍
This is the thing with these trays with the waste in the middle, it has a weak point by design, I’ve come across a few trays where they have cracked in middle. I always use the glass suction cups for trays and screens so much easier to man handle big trays and screens like that. I will always prime ply wood base and use sand and cement if floor is well out of level, if it’s not then silicone. Great job mate, it is frustrating I know but once it’s sorted it’s also a nice feeling afterwards. 👍🏻
Thanks mate, won’t be fitting another without a disclaimer if customer insists poor design, was frustrating for a few weeks but glad it’s behind me now 👍
Hats of to you Luke for taking this job on the chin , really unfortunate the manufacturer went bust. You win some you lose some. Fall forward not down brother , on to the next job 😉
Il leave it in there hands to be honest mate, they did spend a lot of money on the bathroom but did choose the tray from my supplier…I’m just happy it’s all sorted for them 👍
Felt you guys and the video were top drawer. I think the manufacturers invested in a line of these trays at cheap, and it's now coming clear why they were cheap. I think that tray is inferior, and they knew it, went bust. And you did the right thing in making it up to the customer, because it can go south for you otherwise. You'll get the blame possibly, and that's wrong for business. I can imagine the stress behind it, can sympathise. 5 weeks work, own pocket, but it was the right thing, and that counts further down the line. Not only that but you did a splendid job, minute to detail, that's the win-win. 👍👍👍
Thanks mate, tray was way to thin around the waste, customer wanted grey and unfortunately it limited the options massively, will never fit a centre waste again without a disclaimer in place that’s for sure!
I use silicone to fit the tray to the plywood and it works well. I use CT1 but as long as it’s low modules silicone it will work. I used to fit them with sand and cement mortar but using this on a timber floor it always seams to be placing too much weight on on the floor. If it’s to be fitted on to a concrete or screeded ground floor then of course use mortar.
Always flexible tile adhesive to get even coverage. Almost like tiling always works for me. Never had a issue touch wood. Supports the tray evenly within voids. Silicone trays never last.
I think the answer might be in how you first test fitted the new tray - I.e. Holding it/lowering it via the drain hole. This will put a lot of strain/flex on a weak part of the tray from the reverse, meaning you wouldn't see any cracking from above, even if there was any visible cracking. Then when you put weight on it from the top then those weakened areas give up maybe.
@@bluebulldog_uk Yes that area around the drain does seem like a weak spot. I think even holding it at the ends could flex and crack the middle underneath maybe?? Perhaps it is a fundamental problem with these big trays, they seem like a nightmare to handle and fit. I have seen those large trays being lowered via those plastic packing straps that come with pallets etc, which are quite thin and can be slipped out easily afterwards. Maybe it's a case of using something like them to really balance-out the weight, perhaps there's even a kit you could make up to do this job because it seems like a common problem. I don't envy you though having to deal with those big trays!! 🙂
Well Done 👍 lucky you had a helper 👍. I am thinking 🤔 the Key 🔑 thing to avoid in any future tray installation, is the central drain hole in the shower tray design 👎👎 It’s the point that carries the person weight ⁉️ ❌ Definitely design Error…
Trays need to expand. If they are in a recess and touching wall to wall at both ends - craaack! Also, trays are not supposed to be ‘stuck’ down, they are not floor tiles. They have to be ‘set’ down which is why weak sand and cement (with anti crumbling agent ) must be used.
Good job on sorting out the client. I must say I would never use sand and cement on wooden structure due to common sense, it’s not flexible. I’m based In Bristol where majority of the main Bathrooms are located upstairs where you get a lot of movement within the wooden floor. To date on several occasions I had to remove cracked or wobbly trays being installed on a sand and cement bed in the first place. I personally always use “no more ply” 12mm cement board and use flexible tile adhesive to fix the tray. It’s fine to use sand and cement downstairs where usually you have concrete solid floors (by the way try 5:1 ratio as 4:1 might be a bit too strong) but why risk it? Flexible adhesive all day long for me. Thanks for sharing anyway. Good lad👍
Depending on the state of the floor that it's going onto, make it good as possible and level as possible. Can use Hardi Backer board to lay over the floor, this can be screwed or use rapidest flexible adhesive to make it level. Then use rapidest flexible adhesive to bed the shower tray onto it (be generous). Works for me. Thanks for all your content.
That's an interesting looking tray on the underside, the ones I normally fit are pretty flat, some have spots. I use flex tile adhesive or ob1 for plastic trays. You wouldn't have got anything out of the manufacturer other than another tray. Plumbworld do a tray that is pretty much unbreakable and you can cut lumps out of it and plane the sides to fit. Worth looking at
Agreed, I dont fuck on in bathrooms, jacko boards cover the complete floor followed by self levelling compound before any tray goes down thats had the based sealed
Tile adhesive is to strong , if the floor moves it takes the tray with it. Sand and cement doesn't do this. Bit like the way uncoupling mats work with tiles.
@@chocfinigan all floors move, that's the point. Timber expands and contracts, joists move up and down. Yes you can fix the subfloors movement but you will not stop it completely which is why almost every manufacturer states sand and cement not tile adhesive. Using tile adhesive voids the warranty on the tray. Not that many manufacturers will cover a warranty tbf, it's easy to claim poor installation without any proof. All you can do is follow MI.
Ive had to do jobs like this so i know how difficult they are. You did it top notch though👍🏼 ive been using adhesive foam to stick trays down…..no issues yet🙈
How I install - overkill every time, for a joisted floor single piece of ply underneath, seal that to prevent cemant mix drying out too quick. slimmest cutout around waste as possible and additional support if required. Then looking at all the webbing voids and shelving/profile underneath arrange appropriate sized cement blobs underneath all the voids so that as the tray is lowered (straight down preferably with suction handles) that the webbing rests on the deck and the webbing voids press on the cement peaks, leave well alone then to go off. Weight the tray down with a couple of bags of sand to to everything sets in a weighted position. Don't want any movement at all - not just cracks but any flex/creaks. That did look a particularly rubbish tray though, very thin webbing, bet the tray itself was thin too and poor quality materials. The cheaper the tray the more effort you need to put into installing it.
That looks like a Mira Flight tray which is stone cast. They are seriously strong. They are designed to have leg kits if needed so don’t need support all over. That should be fine now.
I had exactly the same issue with that type of tray on 2 separate jobs. Those trays are ridiculously thin where the waste goes . It’s bonkers that the part the user has to walk across every shower is super thin. Those screws fixing the waste come with a torque setting and believe me I used a small torque wrench and they would not seal at the recommended torque. I will never fit another because taking it out is a ball ache. Typical of most trays nowadays they are like bloody wafers. This is the main reason I now prefer to concentrate on fitting kitchens because the quality of bathroom stuff is crap. Mira flight is the way to go, anything else and get someone else to fit it.
Out of interest did the tray have an awfully thin lip around the waste outlet? Had one of these trays before done the exact same fitting correctly. Refused to fit another one after that
What i find weird is a lot of trays can go on a riser kit, so held up only where the legs are. But when you put it on the floor you have to solid bed it. And most manufacturers state sand and cement. Although i think mira might say silicone can be used, which i find weird.
Also, doesn't look like your fault. Loads of trays need that key hole to get the trap to pull up properly. On a side note, get a grabo. Helps loads with putting trays, and glass in.
Yeah I’m going to look at getting some suction cups would come in handy, definitely on this job. I know what you mean, manufacturers say ok on legs then other hand it’s full base with sand and cement
Your replacement tray - Mira Flight - is virtually bomb proof. If you think about it, they are designed so that they can even be suspended on legs around the perimeter with no additional supports in the middle and they'll easily take a 20+ stone person having a shower. So bedding on construction adhesive would be more than enough. It is only to take up any slight undulations in the floor and hold the tray level and doesn't necessarily add anything to the structural performance of the tray.
Great video mate 👍 have you watched the skillbuilder video of the faulty trays he has been dealing with?? Looks a similar problem to what you have encountered? I think it took him 3 replacement trays to eventually get a good one 🤔
Oh mate, I'm gutted for you. I use sand and cement on top of plywood. The only thing i can think is there's a gap under the tray ? Or its just faulty 😢😢
Came across this video as my shower has just developed a crack in the tray. Central waste as well. Not my choice as was installed in the property before I bought it! We've been here 3 1/2 years now so sounds like we were lucky it lasted that long... Do you guys have any tips on next steps plus any idea of potential costs 🙈
@@jackw9889 Trays need to have room to expand and contract, otherwise over time a crack can occur. This may have been your problem, or just a poorly supported tray. If I was asked to address the problem, I’d price for 3 days labour plus installation materials. If existing enclosure can survive a removal and refit, good. If tiles are still available, good. Obviously new tray though. My only concern would be having to work around someone elses old work. Sometimes, you open up a can of worms and things can get worse if old workmanship was below standard.
Same as in video would be needed to replace your looking £1500/£2000 3 days work that took us in the end…it can seem daunting and like your house is being ripped apart and a lot of disruption but at end of day it will get sorted and it’s only tempory 👍👍
That’s exactly why I never supplied sanitary ware I always insisted that the customer sourced and provided their own That way , they have the headache of chasing refunds and replacements It’s also the main reason why I ditched bathrooms in the end , not worth the hassle
So the customer bought a new tray and you guys fitted it for free ? Or did you buy the tray as well ? Top man for sorting yeah your reputation is everything 👍
Never use a tray with a centre waste, as that where most people stand. Bed down the tray on silicone, over wet resistance plywood . Drill a hole through joists, not notch them out. Only seal shower enclosures on the outside only.
I did feel for you here. Had a similar issue as you on a tray same size . What i think contributed to that tray cracking is where you hold the tray through the waste hole ( we all do this) to lower it down and lift it up and drop it down again once weve sorted the waste , the area around that waste hole is under soo much stress whilst lifting it in and out as we know its not design3d to be dropped in that way! However what are you suppoosed to do when that is the only option you have to drop it in place. Then as you say and i agree wuth you , the trap outlet then sits too close to the under side of rhe flooring so you have to cut it out so it thrn can be lifted high enough to sit underside the tray when you secure the waste through the tray itself . Then what you get as you say and ive seen myself is an area of weakness , add to that the outlet in the middle of the tray where people will be standing all the time as opposed to it being at one corner away from people standing on it. That area where the waste secures gets stress fractures plus foot traffic and unsupported has lead to it cracking. As for the dilemma of using sand cement or sealant or flexy tile adhesive will always cause debate. What manufacturers are saying is to comply with its warranty is tbat the tray should be laid on a substance that will fully suppirt the whole tray. Id bet that original tray was chinese made!! Did you supply it or client?? If the client then that would be their responsibility but if you did , then as the vid shiws you took ownership . What is sometimes out of your control is hiw the tray is used by others. Hiw do you know that Something wasnt dropped !! Thats the conundrum ! Maybe like us all when fitting trays is use a decent manufacturer such as mira etc. Had it been a mira and that happened i still theyd of said it was installer error!! With reference tk the waste trap i think manufactuers should come up with somwthing like a transition extension where the waste outlet sits lower so you dont have to remove as much flooring material. Maybe a trap that has its outlet repositioned in design phase by manufacturer. An extension piece is another possibility but also another possible part which could leak later down the line. I think you did amazing to get one out and rhe new in without any damage to the floor tiling and unit. Keep up the good work fella 👍
Great comment and contribution mate thank you really appreciated, I do think warranty’s are not what they claim to be, they would have given me a new tray if I was lucky, this occasion I’ve had to take it on chin…customer chose the tray but I bought it on my account so just had to take this one on the chin and move on, my supplier was really good trying to help out and sorted us a replacement tray 👍
Use a thicker and wetter bed of 6:1, then push and twist down new tray. This will fill all voids under the tray. I can tell by your mix and the imprints of the old tray, it was just touching. As for waste, use a flexible waste. This negates having to cut a larger hole for solvent welds that don't move. BTW Im an expert in the field...oh P.S don't use silicone...use silicone it will crack. As for lowering trays on a bed, use 15mm plastic piping layer in the cement, place tray on top, and pull pipes out. This means it drops on the cement bed flat. Your method squashes cement at one side as its lowered. Just a top tip 😊
Difficult job , get yourself some vacuum glass suckers , x2 and make sure they have a vacuum gauge on them so you the integrity of the seals are good. Good job though 😁👍
Fair play by standing by your work by the the tray had a terrible finish and looks like it was a bad buy. Always let the customer buy the material and then the quality of the material falls on them.
God lucky you ain’t used no CT1 like these instagram plumbing influences Have been using on all sanitary products. I love CT1 but Jesus that would’ve been a nightmare lol
Mira flight has now become utterly useless. I’ve had 3 trays delivered last month, one with the sides debonded and the base bevelled so that trap wouldn’t sit flush and the other two with the underside not being flat issue. Really disappointing, previous times I’ve used them they’ve been fine.
No way. Expanding foam will move anything and everything when it expands. I’ve seen it move a marble mantle piece and surround off a wall by two inches, complete with brackets screws and wall plugs!!!!!
All shower trays with a center waste mate have a week spot personally I always advise my customers to go for a corner waster. It’s 100% nothing you have done 👍
Sand and cement you should not use on a timber floor it will crack, and will not get a good bond to plywood... No more ply or similar I always use on top of the floor then flexible tile adhesive, but how that tray is made you would need a lot, you can see why it has failed. Where is all the support in the floor, I don't see any. Clearly that job needed a joiner in first to strengthen the floor.
I love these jobs, work for a estate agent that does student lets that have had a builder do loads of poor work, i spend all my time doing thisvtype of stuff putting it right. Good money and entertaining. Problem jobs but okay if the money is right.
How to do you bed your shower trays? Let me know in comments and. Thank you all again for your support 🙌👍
Fair play doing this job would break my heart
I honestly think expanding foam is best for trays
Level it up with window packers then get plenty of foam so it fills all gaps
Also put silicone on bottom of the tray
Some folk will have issue with this as there is this thing about foam being rough but it’s never failed me
Flexible tile adhesive also a good way but foam is great for the job
Soudal PU plasterboard adhesive
I'm a plasterboard adhesive sorta guy as long as floor is screwed down and solid I've never had an issue
Always fit double capped trays
Weak sand and cement mix 6/1 with a bit of SBR mixed in and prime the ply with SBR, sometimes you have to beef up the joists under the tray, make sure it’s solid, most probably a faulty tray mate but they won’t admit to it, the quality of everything nowadays has gone.
You should use this video to win new customers. I can’t see many plumbers taking this on the chin like you did. Big respect to you mate!
Thanks mate much appreciated 👍👍
I have. Very depressing undoing a solid job because of a faulty product.
The customer is lucky to have you.
Top man
Thanks mate 👍
My trays get fitted on a 3x2 frame, never had any problems. Eliminates messing with sand and cement and easier to fit and get access to the waste, 4 inch Plinth along the front job done
Well done mate sorting it all out for the customer , the design of having the outlet in the middle of the tray where the users are going to stand is a bad idea , again very well done.
Thanks mate 🙌👍
I use rapid sett flexible, sand and cement always shrinks and cracks, you lads did a good job on this one
Nice one Luke, must be a weight off your mind. I use 5:1 sand & cement with plastisicer, as you say its not to stick the tray but to seat it. I like to put in down in mole hills of mortar and rock it level. Tile adhesive is all well and good but if its too well stuck the hot water will cause a large tray to expand and we don't want stresses on an already paper thin tray. I ditch all wastes that come with a tray and use Mcalpine but I wish they did one with a high enough trap to prevent having to keyhole the ply.
Thanks mate, your spot on with saying it’s not suppose to stick, lot of people think the tray needs to stick solid to floor when the idea is it’s for support mainly and doesn’t need to adhere to tray 👍
Fair play that's gutting 😢 that reminds me why I don't do bathrooms. No wonder that tray manufacturer went bust. I wonder if the sand and cement sinks a little when it drys? Anyway can't beat Mira 🎉
Happy they choose a Mira am a lot more confident it will last now 👍👍
Luke you did a wicked job replacing it❤. We make a timber frame then ply so it’s not sat flat on floor so any problems with trap can be accessed. Absolute ballache of a job though
Thanks mate much appreciated 🙌👍
You are such a decent chap.
Would some plumbers say it's not my fault the firm went bust
Thanks mate, reputation over profit for me, I always put myself in customers shoes and if that had happened to me and someone said not there fault I wouldn’t be happy, good result in the end 👍
Man that looks like a ball ache! Fair play to you sorting it out. Top bloke
Thanks mate 👍
I use what the manufactures say can be used last time I am sure I rang them and asked and they said use pink grip! I try not to get involved in bathrooms anymore so much risk involved installing bathrooms! Well done for getting it done feel for you on this one.
Thanks mate, yeah I’ve always gone by MI, just in case I ever had a problem and needed to claim…turned out to be pointless on this one thou 😅
well handled, customer has picked a crap tray there and you've been stitched up, I will learn from this going forward if they want anything other than my recommended brands I'll let them supply it, but I feel even if they had they would have put it down to installation. I use packers and a high 100mm centre spot bed of silicone, I've used tile adhesive in the past but if your fitting in an alcove your gonna struggle to lay the tray without wrecking your bed, your due some good luck mate
Thanks mate appreciate the comment 🙌👍👍
I would be suprised if the manufacturer asks you to seal behind the screen profile. Be careful as a lot have internal drainage and sealing behind can cause problems. Top job from a fellow plumber 👍
Bathroom and kitchen fitter here…I have never used sand and cement on any floor for a shower tray. Flexible tile adhesive every time.
Yes sand and cement is no good always use flex tile adhesive
Defo not on a timber floor. Mad that many manufacturers recommend this.
Can I ask, on a timber floor would do you cement board before the tile addy?
Agree
@@petespencer5260 being old school (due to my age 71), I would first of all make sure the timber floor is sound ie no excessive “bounce” which would either be due to not enough noggins or too big of a expanse on the joists. Then ensure floor boards are properly screwed down (not nailed) then 3/4” quality ply again screwed with minimum 3" screws and glued not nailed through the boards and into the joists first of all piloting through both the ply and boards so that the screw is properly engaged in the joist. I always prime the ply with real primer not pva glue. All this is just my opinion which over the last 54 years has never let me down and never had a call back. Did my last one last week, took a bath out and fitted a low profile walk in shower shower tray and glass. Not to say there isn’t other ways of doing it but this is how I do.
@@petehayward7478can't beat old shool Pete. I'm half your age but learnt with my dad. Would you always use sabd/cement to lay your trays on..? Most I pull up these days been glued down with silicone or similar.. I always find first fixing the wastes the annoying part.. Tempted to maybe use a flexicon on my next one to give a bit more help.
Best wishes
Very well done boys, totally feel your pain. This video is the best advert for your skill and integrity, you are obviously a very nice man.
Next one, try mounting the shower tray on 18mm cement board. You won't get any flexing at all. Also if you can get a good seal use double glazing suckers to be able to manipulate the tray and shower glass in place. I bed trays on fixa foam and fixall grab adhesive. Also i always use a McAlpine 40mm flexi on shower tray wastes, then you can crank it up at an angle when the top collar goes in...
Love the channel...
Thanks for the advice mate really appreciated 🙌👍 unfortunate for customer as they have had to suffer without a shower but I know what you mean, I like customers to know and see the after care we do, this is a bad situation but all got resolved in end with no cost to customer 👍
Fully invested in this one. Thought you did a fantastic job! Like you’d never been there! Well done To you and Chris ❤
Thanks mate, and thanks for listening to me moan about it for 5 weeks 😂😂 to be fair lad you’ve been a great support behind the scenes so thank you 🙌👊
@@bluebulldog_uk anytime mate ♥️
The things he does so he doesn't have to get home early Dan for another shinner
Well done going back geez 👍🏻 I like seeing people do things differently. I’ve always put cement board down with tile adhesive. But sand and cement why not.
Thanks mate 🙌👍
Just started using flexi tile adhesive, don’t know if it helps bud, when I’m positioning a glass screen into a profile I put some ply or soft wood on the tray so you don’t scratch as you get the top part of the glass in , the rest of the glass then follows and you take out the wood carefully ( watch ya fingers) but saves a scratch or scuff and just lower the glass down o t the tray. 👍 good job mate!
To be fair mate that’s a great tip nice one 👍👍
When I fitted my ensuite I bought a Kaldewei 1500 x 850 steel shower tray, they tell you to use a Soudal 2K structural foam to fix the tray down.
The tray submerges into the floor and they template 8 x 20cm discs of foam...I would really recommend the tray.
Thanks mate 👍
I found them glazing suction cups good for holding them screens . Good video mate.
Going to look at getting some 👍👍
Im about to fit a tray like this - its a Crosswater Vito - the instructions say to either mortar bed or silicone.... ive laid a piece of 18mm ply over the whole area making sure its level and well supported - ill be sticking the tray down to it using stixall - despite all the prep and following the instructions to the letter the idea of the tray cracking after ive got everything in is completely unbearable it must be a relief for you to have it over with - thanks for the video which has helped me prep but also fuelled my anxiety!
Take plenty of pictures of how you fit it and what you use, I did but didn’t count for nothing in the end…all you can do is prep it the best you can mate, sounds like your doing it spot on to be honest, all the best with it mate 👍👍
Fair play mate was waiting on this one, absolutely outstanding work. I can only imagine how hard it was working in that bathroom without making more work for yourself. 10 out of 10 !
Thanks mate good result in the end 👍
@bluebulldog_uk definitely A good result mate it's as if you where never there! 👍
Just watched MJ Tiff's video of the problems he's had with MIRA shower trays. Might be worth a watch mate.👍
Amazing job 💙 above and beyond knew how much it meant to you put it behind you you did and dealt with it amazingly professionally
promptly and 100% well done to both of you 😊👍
This is the thing with these trays with the waste in the middle, it has a weak point by design, I’ve come across a few trays where they have cracked in middle. I always use the glass suction cups for trays and screens so much easier to man handle big trays and screens like that. I will always prime ply wood base and use sand and cement if floor is well out of level, if it’s not then silicone. Great job mate, it is frustrating I know but once it’s sorted it’s also a nice feeling afterwards. 👍🏻
Thanks mate, won’t be fitting another without a disclaimer if customer insists poor design, was frustrating for a few weeks but glad it’s behind me now 👍
Hats of to you Luke for taking this job on the chin , really unfortunate the manufacturer went bust. You win some you lose some. Fall forward not down brother , on to the next job 😉
Thanks mate, it was an experience I don’t want again 😅😅👍
Fitted 100s of trays on site over the years if not 1000s. Always been put down with silicone never had a problem... Yet😂
Thanks mate 🙌👍
It’s an absolute nightmare to get back up for the next person but, or yourself if your back again to re-fit, sand cement all the way
If customer specified that first model of tray I think he should at least be making a contribution given that you did everything right
Absolutely, no way would I have done all that for free!
Il leave it in there hands to be honest mate, they did spend a lot of money on the bathroom but did choose the tray from my supplier…I’m just happy it’s all sorted for them 👍
Felt you guys and the video were top drawer. I think the manufacturers invested in a line of these trays at cheap, and it's now coming clear why they were cheap. I think that tray is inferior, and they knew it, went bust. And you did the right thing in making it up to the customer, because it can go south for you otherwise. You'll get the blame possibly, and that's wrong for business.
I can imagine the stress behind it, can sympathise. 5 weeks work, own pocket, but it was the right thing, and that counts further down the line. Not only that but you did a splendid job, minute to detail, that's the win-win. 👍👍👍
Thanks mate, tray was way to thin around the waste, customer wanted grey and unfortunately it limited the options massively, will never fit a centre waste again without a disclaimer in place that’s for sure!
I use silicone to fit the tray to the plywood and it works well. I use CT1 but as long as it’s low modules silicone it will work. I used to fit them with sand and cement mortar but using this on a timber floor it always seams to be placing too much weight on on the floor. If it’s to be fitted on to a concrete or screeded ground floor then of course use mortar.
Always flexible tile adhesive to get even coverage. Almost like tiling always works for me. Never had a issue touch wood. Supports the tray evenly within voids. Silicone trays never last.
Brill mate, keep them coming.
All the best.
Mira products are built to last.
Thanks mate, yeah the Mira trays I’ve fitted a few and them good quality 👍
I think the answer might be in how you first test fitted the new tray - I.e. Holding it/lowering it via the drain hole. This will put a lot of strain/flex on a weak part of the tray from the reverse, meaning you wouldn't see any cracking from above, even if there was any visible cracking. Then when you put weight on it from the top then those weakened areas give up maybe.
When we installed it we had a lot of room so held it from each end but the middle looking at it is a massive weak spot
@@bluebulldog_uk Yes that area around the drain does seem like a weak spot. I think even holding it at the ends could flex and crack the middle underneath maybe??
Perhaps it is a fundamental problem with these big trays, they seem like a nightmare to handle and fit.
I have seen those large trays being lowered via those plastic packing straps that come with pallets etc, which are quite thin and can be slipped out easily afterwards.
Maybe it's a case of using something like them to really balance-out the weight, perhaps there's even a kit you could make up to do this job because it seems like a common problem.
I don't envy you though having to deal with those big trays!! 🙂
Well Done 👍 lucky you had a helper 👍.
I am thinking 🤔 the Key 🔑 thing to avoid in any future tray installation, is the central drain hole in the shower tray design 👎👎
It’s the point that carries the person weight ⁉️ ❌
Definitely design Error…
Agree mate design error, weakest point right in middle where they will stand, not good
You did a beautiful job originally.And it looks just as good now if not better.Well done.
Thanks 👍 it looks great with white tray, reflects the light and stands out 👍
Well Done mate 👏🏼 in my opinion it looks miles better with the white tray 👍🏼 top job pal
Thanks mate, when I walked in after it was all cleaned and sealed I agree white tray looks really good 👍
Trays need to expand. If they are in a recess and touching wall to wall at both ends - craaack!
Also, trays are not supposed to be ‘stuck’ down, they are not floor tiles. They have to be ‘set’ down which is why weak sand and cement (with anti crumbling agent ) must be used.
Good old English thinking… that’s why most of the country looks like
Good job on sorting out the client. I must say I would never use sand and cement on wooden structure due to common sense, it’s not flexible. I’m based In Bristol where majority of the main Bathrooms are located upstairs where you get a lot of movement within the wooden floor. To date on several occasions I had to remove cracked or wobbly trays being installed on a sand and cement bed in the first place. I personally always use “no more ply” 12mm cement board and use flexible tile adhesive to fix the tray. It’s fine to use sand and cement downstairs where usually you have concrete solid floors (by the way try 5:1 ratio as 4:1 might be a bit too strong) but why risk it? Flexible adhesive all day long for me. Thanks for sharing anyway. Good lad👍
Thanks mate appreciate the comment and advice 👍
@@bluebulldog_uk Thanks
Top guy for sorting it, subbed.
Thanks mate appreciate the support 🙌👍
Crazy that you picked up the bill on this one! Good work though, and new tray looks better!
I know mate, waited ages on manufacturer just to find out it was a dead end, all sorted in end thou 👍
Depending on the state of the floor that it's going onto, make it good as possible and level as possible. Can use Hardi Backer board to lay over the floor, this can be screwed or use rapidest flexible adhesive to make it level. Then use rapidest flexible adhesive to bed the shower tray onto it (be generous). Works for me. Thanks for all your content.
Thanks mate appreciate the advice 🙌
Great video, every time I’ve tried to bed it on a sand and cement base it’s ended badly tile adhesive or silicone for me
Cheers mate, yeah saw your video last week of putting yours in, problem we had was floor was slooped so sand and cement made up for it
@@bluebulldog_uk it’s a nightmare when that’s the case I go for tile adhesive
That's an interesting looking tray on the underside, the ones I normally fit are pretty flat, some have spots.
I use flex tile adhesive or ob1 for plastic trays.
You wouldn't have got anything out of the manufacturer other than another tray.
Plumbworld do a tray that is pretty much unbreakable and you can cut lumps out of it and plane the sides to fit. Worth looking at
Got a link for that tray?
@ThePebble68 look at descriptions for vid.
Seems they only do a non slip, shame it was great for fitting.
10/10 first class 👏🏻 Well done.
Thanks mate 👍👍
great vid lad it happens and your helping others avoid the nightmare top man
Thanks mate appreciate the support 🙌👍👍
Flexible tile adhesive! I dont see how sand and cement will last on a timber floor
Agreed, I dont fuck on in bathrooms, jacko boards cover the complete floor followed by self levelling compound before any tray goes down thats had the based sealed
Tile adhesive is to strong , if the floor moves it takes the tray with it. Sand and cement doesn't do this. Bit like the way uncoupling mats work with tiles.
I can see why people use it but why won’t manufacturers recognise it as a method of bedding trays when so many people do it
@@hunterb9273 if the floors moving isn't there a bigger issue 🤣
@@chocfinigan all floors move, that's the point. Timber expands and contracts, joists move up and down. Yes you can fix the subfloors movement but you will not stop it completely which is why almost every manufacturer states sand and cement not tile adhesive. Using tile adhesive voids the warranty on the tray. Not that many manufacturers will cover a warranty tbf, it's easy to claim poor installation without any proof. All you can do is follow MI.
Ive had to do jobs like this so i know how difficult they are. You did it top notch though👍🏼 ive been using adhesive foam to stick trays down…..no issues yet🙈
Thanks mate, start with my anxiety was through roof worrying about it but once old tray was out and we tried the new one in I was so relieved 👍
Great video! I`m just a diy-er but my shower tray had a perfectly flat back. Went down on solid wood with no issues?
Fitted them with flat bottoms, seem more solid to be honest 👍
Expanding foam then three boxes of tiles on the tray and allow to cure
I put my trays down on ct1
But you did a good job there 👏
Thanks mate 👍
I would replace those floorboards with ply then bed tray down on a foam underlay ,takes up any discrepancies in tray .
How I install - overkill every time, for a joisted floor single piece of ply underneath, seal that to prevent cemant mix drying out too quick. slimmest cutout around waste as possible and additional support if required. Then looking at all the webbing voids and shelving/profile underneath arrange appropriate sized cement blobs underneath all the voids so that as the tray is lowered (straight down preferably with suction handles) that the webbing rests on the deck and the webbing voids press on the cement peaks, leave well alone then to go off. Weight the tray down with a couple of bags of sand to to everything sets in a weighted position. Don't want any movement at all - not just cracks but any flex/creaks. That did look a particularly rubbish tray though, very thin webbing, bet the tray itself was thin too and poor quality materials. The cheaper the tray the more effort you need to put into installing it.
It was thin all over mate rubbish design, won’t be fitting middle waste trays without a disclaimer from now on
Lovely fix mate.
Thanks mate 👍
That looks like a Mira Flight tray which is stone cast. They are seriously strong. They are designed to have leg kits if needed so don’t need support all over. That should be fine now.
I had exactly the same issue with that type of tray on 2 separate jobs. Those trays are ridiculously thin where the waste goes . It’s bonkers that the part the user has to walk across every shower is super thin. Those screws fixing the waste come with a torque setting and believe me I used a small torque wrench and they would not seal at the recommended torque. I will never fit another because taking it out is a ball ache. Typical of most trays nowadays they are like bloody wafers. This is the main reason I now prefer to concentrate on fitting kitchens because the quality of bathroom stuff is crap. Mira flight is the way to go, anything else and get someone else to fit it.
I won’t fit another and if customer insists il get a waiver signed, them stupid thin around the weakest point, designed to fail
Well done young man. I am sure you will be getting a few “word of mouth recommendations” from that client,
Thanks mate 🙌👍
Tip
Use plastic packers screwed down get your levels, and then a full thin mix be 100 % level
Hi how do you connect your gas hobs. Do you use copper pipe or the hob hoses cheers thank you
Follow MIs but normally copper to be honest, I know with some you can use a hose but always don’t it in copper 👍
We all ways use flex adhesive. Never do sand and cement but great job mate
Thanks mate 👍👍
Well done mate that looked like a pain
Thanks mate 👍
Out of interest did the tray have an awfully thin lip around the waste outlet? Had one of these trays before done the exact same fitting correctly. Refused to fit another one after that
Yes mate very thin in middle for waste, won’t be fitting another without a disclaimer if customer insists on having one 👍
What i find weird is a lot of trays can go on a riser kit, so held up only where the legs are. But when you put it on the floor you have to solid bed it. And most manufacturers state sand and cement. Although i think mira might say silicone can be used, which i find weird.
Sorry commented before I watched it all.
Also, doesn't look like your fault. Loads of trays need that key hole to get the trap to pull up properly. On a side note, get a grabo. Helps loads with putting trays, and glass in.
Yeah I’m going to look at getting some suction cups would come in handy, definitely on this job. I know what you mean, manufacturers say ok on legs then other hand it’s full base with sand and cement
Your replacement tray - Mira Flight - is virtually bomb proof. If you think about it, they are designed so that they can even be suspended on legs around the perimeter with no additional supports in the middle and they'll easily take a 20+ stone person having a shower. So bedding on construction adhesive would be more than enough. It is only to take up any slight undulations in the floor and hold the tray level and doesn't necessarily add anything to the structural performance of the tray.
Yeah mate I’m really confident in there trays, them good quality 🙌👍👍
Great video mate 👍 have you watched the skillbuilder video of the faulty trays he has been dealing with?? Looks a similar problem to what you have encountered? I think it took him 3 replacement trays to eventually get a good one 🤔
Yes mate watched rogers videos, cracking bloke and well explained in his videos why they fail, he did have a nightmare with it as well
Oh mate, I'm gutted for you.
I use sand and cement on top of plywood.
The only thing i can think is there's a gap under the tray ?
Or its just faulty 😢😢
One of them mate, just gotta put it behind me now it’s all sorted 👍
If the tray is smooth,the glass suckers are great to lower and take tray back out again.
Will defo have to look at getting some 👍
Came across this video as my shower has just developed a crack in the tray. Central waste as well. Not my choice as was installed in the property before I bought it! We've been here 3 1/2 years now so sounds like we were lucky it lasted that long...
Do you guys have any tips on next steps plus any idea of potential costs 🙈
Is it in a recess ( 3 walls ) or a corner?
@@grrinc Recess
@@jackw9889 Trays need to have room to expand and contract, otherwise over time a crack can occur. This may have been your problem, or just a poorly supported tray.
If I was asked to address the problem, I’d price for 3 days labour plus installation materials.
If existing enclosure can survive a removal and refit, good.
If tiles are still available, good.
Obviously new tray though.
My only concern would be having to work around someone elses old work. Sometimes, you open up a can of worms and things can get worse if old workmanship was below standard.
Same as in video would be needed to replace your looking £1500/£2000 3 days work that took us in the end…it can seem daunting and like your house is being ripped apart and a lot of disruption but at end of day it will get sorted and it’s only tempory 👍👍
Great job well done
Thanks mate 👍
super job
That’s exactly why I never supplied sanitary ware
I always insisted that the customer sourced and provided their own
That way , they have the headache of chasing refunds and replacements
It’s also the main reason why I ditched bathrooms in the end , not worth the hassle
It’s put me off bathrooms to be honest, will be working more profit into the jobs from now on 👍
@@bluebulldog_uk That’s the way buddy , all the best 👍
also purcahse a couple of grabbos expensive but well worth it for them screens
Would come in handy definitely 👍👍
Great video .
Thanks mate
Great job
Thanks 🙌👍👍
EML on ply when using sand and cement
What if the customer had dropped something in the tray damaging it ?
If that had happened then they would of had to pay for the work and the tray
Did you have to suffer the cost of the replacement tray and labour
Labour and part of the materials, supplier who I got it from sorted us tray and box of tiles
So the customer bought a new tray and you guys fitted it for free ? Or did you buy the tray as well ? Top man for sorting yeah your reputation is everything 👍
Supplier supplied the tray after not being able to make a claim from manufacturer everything else we sorted out 👍
As you lifted the tray it would have been helpful to see the sand and cement bed before you cleared it away.
Get yourself some cheese wire for those brackets that are siliconed in lol
I did mate after that basin job, guess where it is…in the office still from when it was delivered 😂😂👍
good on you . top stuff
Thanks 👍
Never use a tray with a centre waste, as that where most people stand.
Bed down the tray on silicone, over wet resistance plywood .
Drill a hole through joists, not notch them out.
Only seal shower enclosures on the outside only.
Will never fit a centre waste again awful design
I did feel for you here. Had a similar issue as you on a tray same size .
What i think contributed to that tray cracking is where you hold the tray through the waste hole ( we all do this) to lower it down and lift it up and drop it down again once weve sorted the waste , the area around that waste hole is under soo much stress whilst lifting it in and out as we know its not design3d to be dropped in that way! However what are you suppoosed to do when that is the only option you have to drop it in place. Then as you say and i agree wuth you , the trap outlet then sits too close to the under side of rhe flooring so you have to cut it out so it thrn can be lifted high enough to sit underside the tray when you secure the waste through the tray itself .
Then what you get as you say and ive seen myself is an area of weakness , add to that the outlet in the middle of the tray where people will be standing all the time as opposed to it being at one corner away from people standing on it.
That area where the waste secures gets stress fractures plus foot traffic and unsupported has lead to it cracking.
As for the dilemma of using sand cement or sealant or flexy tile adhesive will always cause debate. What manufacturers are saying is to comply with its warranty is tbat the tray should be laid on a substance that will fully suppirt the whole tray.
Id bet that original tray was chinese made!!
Did you supply it or client??
If the client then that would be their responsibility but if you did , then as the vid shiws you took ownership . What is sometimes out of your control is hiw the tray is used by others. Hiw do you know that Something wasnt dropped !! Thats the conundrum !
Maybe like us all when fitting trays is use a decent manufacturer such as mira etc. Had it been a mira and that happened i still theyd of said it was installer error!!
With reference tk the waste trap i think manufactuers should come up with somwthing like a transition extension where the waste outlet sits lower so you dont have to remove as much flooring material.
Maybe a trap that has its outlet repositioned in design phase by manufacturer. An extension piece is another possibility but also another possible part which could leak later down the line.
I think you did amazing to get one out and rhe new in without any damage to the floor tiling and unit.
Keep up the good work fella 👍
Great comment and contribution mate thank you really appreciated, I do think warranty’s are not what they claim to be, they would have given me a new tray if I was lucky, this occasion I’ve had to take it on chin…customer chose the tray but I bought it on my account so just had to take this one on the chin and move on, my supplier was really good trying to help out and sorted us a replacement tray 👍
Use a thicker and wetter bed of 6:1, then push and twist down new tray. This will fill all voids under the tray. I can tell by your mix and the imprints of the old tray, it was just touching. As for waste, use a flexible waste. This negates having to cut a larger hole for solvent welds that don't move. BTW Im an expert in the field...oh P.S don't use silicone...use silicone it will crack. As for lowering trays on a bed, use 15mm plastic piping layer in the cement, place tray on top, and pull pipes out. This means it drops on the cement bed flat. Your method squashes cement at one side as its lowered. Just a top tip 😊
Cheese wire helps sometimes getting down that silicone against the wall.
I’ve bought one after the basin that was stuck to wall…guess where I left it…at home 😂😂👍👍
shit loads of flexible tile adhesive is what i use . fill up any hollows in the tray so no gaps between
Tile adhesive base all day long
Difficult job , get yourself some vacuum glass suckers , x2 and make sure they have a vacuum gauge on them so you the integrity of the seals are good.
Good job though 😁👍
I’m going to look at getting a set as I’ve seen people use them and they look good, thanks for suggestion mate 👍
Fair play by standing by your work by the the tray had a terrible finish and looks like it was a bad buy. Always let the customer buy the material and then the quality of the material falls on them.
Same thoughts here , that’s what I always did
This approach would’ve saved him a load of money here
Thanks mate, customer choose the tray but from my supplier…in hindsight I should of let them do the purchase but onwards and upwards 👍
God lucky you ain’t used no CT1 like these instagram plumbing influences Have been using on all sanitary products. I love CT1 but Jesus that would’ve been a nightmare lol
I know mate would have had to smash the whole Floor out!
Looks like a Roger bisby demo elements board and Mira flight,
Elements board I actually use because I watch his videos 😂👍👍
Mira flight has now become utterly useless. I’ve had 3 trays delivered last month, one with the sides debonded and the base bevelled so that trap wouldn’t sit flush and the other two with the underside not being flat issue. Really disappointing, previous times I’ve used them they’ve been fine.
Expanding foam the way to go in the future especially on a timber floor
No way. Expanding foam will move anything and everything when it expands. I’ve seen it move a marble mantle piece and surround off a wall by two inches, complete with brackets screws and wall plugs!!!!!
People fail to realise that the idea is not to stick the tray down its to get a solid fully covered base
Top plumber
All shower trays with a center waste mate have a week spot personally I always advise my customers to go for a corner waster. It’s 100% nothing you have done 👍
Won’t be fitting one again mate without a disclaimer if customer really wants one 👍
Sand and cement you should not use on a timber floor it will crack, and will not get a good bond to plywood... No more ply or similar I always use on top of the floor then flexible tile adhesive, but how that tray is made you would need a lot, you can see why it has failed. Where is all the support in the floor, I don't see any. Clearly that job needed a joiner in first to strengthen the floor.
Put mortar under the pan and it won’t crack
Topman
I love these jobs, work for a estate agent that does student lets that have had a builder do loads of poor work, i spend all my time doing thisvtype of stuff putting it right. Good money and entertaining.
Problem jobs but okay if the money is right.
Gotta put a decent amount in to sort other people’s mistakes out definitely
Always by manufacturers instructions