What do you think we should do ? Do you want this woman living in your house ? Maybe build a hospital just for her ? Because the places that used to take mentally ill people public opinion had closed down for their supposed cruelty. And now those millions of homeless people that have mental illness on the streets or stuck in a present somewhere. You can't have both. And I don't know if you hear people talking about what they want to pay taxes for and what they don't 😂 But you might have a problem getting money out of people. When the state of the government does it you ridicule the state and the government. What better idea do you have ? That's what I thought
A friend of mine was a vicar whose parish included an old "asylum". At the far end of his graveyard he discovered several unmarked graves which turned out to be the stillborn children of unmarried mothers who had been locked up under the Mental Deficiency Act, some from as recent as the 1960s. There is, at least, a memorial to them now.
@@sheehase Eskimo is a slur and a simple Google search would tell you that you are incorrect. There are dozens of thousands of those kids dead. There is plenty of video footage, eye witness accounts, DNA evidence photography, and survivor accounts out there that you can educate yourself with. Don't laugh at someone else's tragedy. No one thinks being uneducated is funny. Hold yourself to higher standards than that. Disliking something doesn't make it less true. Denying this is like pretending slavery didn't happen. The Pope himself issued an apology for what they did to those kids at those schools. You can easily find the info about it here in UA-cam. Judging by your post history you probably have some sort of religious history with the Catholic Church. You saying the Pope is a liar?
"Imbecile" used to be a medical term for adults who had no more mental capacity than a young child (specifically, a 5 to 7 year old child). Similarly, "idiot" used to be a medical term for someone with with no more mental capacity than a 4 year old (30 IQ). "Moron" also used to be the term for mild intellectual disability (50 to 70 IQ). These terms all gained offensive connotations in the 20th century and by the 60s were replaced with the R word (which also became predominantly used as an offensive term and replaced with general "disability"; which is likely resistant to the euphemism cycle affecting the others, since it's used for all types of disabilities, not just low mental development). I should note that "IQ" is recognized to be baseless and highly culturally specific, it's not measuring some innate intelligence we have. So take the usage of it with a grain of salt.
This still happens in some US states. In Virginia it's called civil commitment. People are held indefinitely, and revaluated every 5 years. In Virginia they're held at the Marion Correctional Treatment Center. It was being investigated recently because a bunch of the inmates had hypothermia because the heating system wasn't working in some areas.
That's almost completely wrong. The problem is all you people wanted sanitariums and mental asylums closed because of their supposed cruelty. At once you closed those places you put all those mentally ill people on the street. These people are required to take medication every day because they have psychosis. Stop giving your opinion like you know what you're talking about.
It's funny how someone like you would complain about no place to put these people at the same time you complain about them being on the street. You can have it both ways mate. It was public opinion that closed these sanitoriums down. Which pushed all those mentally all people onto the street. Good luck finding people on the street to tell them to take their medication. I wanna see some proof about this place in Virginia because I think you're full of 💩
I had a great aunt that was rarely ever spoken about that was incarcerated as a child for bad behaviour, she was moved from place to place and died in a mental hospital in her 80s. All that I know for sure about her is that as a child she had seizures. There are so many parts of family history like this, especially if your family was poor.
I had a great Aunt who was put away most of her adult life for having an ‘inappropriate relationship’ and so institutionalised she could barely function when released to ‘care in the community’. 😢
I’m so glad you shine a bright light on all aspects of history - flattering, unfortunate, or complicated. The truth has a way of outting. I love your work.
While this is very well researched and true, it is worth noting that today UK prisons hold people sentenced for "the straw that broke the camel's back" offences that are indefinite. Known as indefinite public protection orders (ipp), many such prisoners go on to develop mental health issues while in custody and those issues become reasons for justifying continuing custody
Gonna sound a bit harsh, but if someone just keeps getting locked up the moment you release them multiple times, just dont let them out. Yea the prison system is kinda fucked, but there is a reason it exists.
@@lukeonuke uh maybe prisons should be places where people are taught to behave, not places to punish people who "deserve it"? like if these people were getting mental illnesses from being in prison then maybe they weren't being treated very humanely just saying
@@lukeonuke Or maybe the economy, social security and justice/prison systems is so broken that it creates problems where none would have existed before. It's called "Institutional syndrome" individuals in institutions, like prisons, may be deprived (whether unintentionally or not) of independence and of responsibility, to the point that once they return to "outside life" they are often unable to manage many of its demands. So yes "There is a reason it exists", just not a good one.
It's not really horrible, it was scientific excellence. Now all these crazy people are allowed to reproduce and spread their madness in social media and in laws. Look at the west now...
My great great grandmother was sent to an "asylum" near East Grinstead. In fairness, she had 5 children and her husband died leaving her destitute and had delusional experiences such as hearing people arguing where there wasn't anyone at all. That was 1892. She remained there until 1913 when she died of what was probably a brain tumor. All her kids grew up in service, my great grandfather as a baker's assistant, but became a master baker in his own right. Mental health isn't much better these days, but we don't always recognise mental health as the underlying cause of poor socialisation, unemployability or criminality.
We still do this in the US, though some parts of the country are worse than others. In the 70s, when the mental institutions started releasing large numbers of people who were not a danger to themselves or society, my great grandmother turned her home into a boarding house for several of these women. Their life stories were heartbreaking. Not everyone had families who were interested in ever getting them out or seeing them again. 💔
I used to live in Columbia, SC and they shut down the state mental hospital and just turned people out into the street and a lot of those people still live on the street within a few miles of where the hospital was. It's pitiful, there is no where for them to go.
These stories are heavy to hear but important to me, because with my neurodivergency and medical history, I know that this is how I could have ended up if I'd been living in other times
@@AnthemUnanthemed What do you mean, they take people, even if they are underage, and they put them on like a working farm which they can't escape, without consent?
@@lupakajsalisa3652 literally the current prison system in the united states and a number of other countries still do it too, the 13th amendment in the constitution allows for the enslavement "as punishment for a crime", and has deemed medical conditions illegal, and can and does prosecute some children as adults for things like drugs in some states.
@FritzHeiger Just Google the Andrew Mercer Reformatory for women. Women could even be locked up for being in sexual relationships (married or not) with non-white men.
Having had friends having their sons or daughters incarcerated in a similar type of institution in New Zealand in the 1980s, I can easily assure you the cure is worse than the cause 😖
There must be so many people who were put away for being suicidal who became more suicidal because they were put away. But hey, some people were prevented from committing suicide that way, and that's all that matters, right? They can be as miserable as humanly possible as long as they stay alive.
I used to volunteer at a care home in the 90s, for elderly people with learning difficulties. The director told me that many of them had been institutionalised as young people, for things such as having sex out of wedlock, and would have been quite capable of living normal lives, except that they were now unable to do so because of spending their whole lives in institutions. At least we were able to give them some comfort and dignity in their old age.
Tony Blair introduced "weekend prison" so convicts could keep an outside life including job. It was quietly cancelled without explanation. I happen to know why. The prisoners would meet up at the pub nearest the prison at midday Friday; drink themselves stupid; report to the prison at 6pm; since they near catatonic none of the normal in-processing and security checks could take place. They were put straight to bed and slept their way through Saturday. Sunday morning they were given breakfast and released.
Hello J.D.... haven't seen you for a while - at least, not in my 'subscriptions' feed, - so it was a moment of joy when I clicked to listen. Not sure where you've been but so glad to see you back and hope you're in good health! Keep you're light shining bright! ~ Cobs (UK) x
Before the end I was bracing so hard that 3 years came as a relief - not as long as I had feared. In my home country we had a policy of forced sterilization for similar cases far to close to now for comfort. "back in the good old days"...
The USA has this too. Insanity pleas are NOT a way to "get away with it" . The doctors get to decide if you are "better". Unless it is life in prison you are facing, being institutionalized can be worse than jail. Imagine being medicated "for your own safety" for the rest of your life.
actually no they just lock the people suffering with substance use disorder in prison with the rest of the "criminals" (the more you look into it the more u realize prison in general doesnt work and makes problems much worse), all of societies current problems can fairly regularly be tracked back to the leaders of the nation, you shouldnt need violence or threats to control people, and you will breed hatred and rebelion as a result expecially when they never listened to reason or science or fact, and just chose to try to modify reality itself to fit their brutalized fantasy
I'm well aware of that if I had been born 50 years earlier, I would have spent my life locked up like my grandmothers sister. I'm autistic and so were probably she too. Unfortunatly, society still hates us and wants us to adapt, something that shortens our lifespans with around 10 years. So it's not yet time for society to patt it's back. It needs to become inclusive, not trying to force us squares through round holes.
@@stiofanmacamhalghaidhau765 Not correct. We have a shorter lifespan due to a lot of reasons, like drowning and suicide, when you add them up, it's more like the number you gave, but I was only refering to this one thing.
Which begs the question, what drives people to die by suicide? Or die of complications of neglected medical conditions, or from heart attack or stroke arising from the actual #1 cause of death for autistics, ie hypertension, as a result of substance abuse, partner or carer violence, etc etc. All those are deaths arising from marginalisation, isolation, exclusion, and discrimination. You cant marginalise or exclude yourself. It gets done to you, and from a societal perspective, its systemic from state and institutional level down to interpersonal relations. On that basis the 25-30 year shorter life expectancy is very much a "done to us by others" thing as the actual impact of life-limiting conditions barely shifts above the sicietal average - theres nothing inherent in being autistic that leads to liwer life expectancy. Tho arguing even part of that has been quite a battle ongoing for decades now.
This is such an important perspective to have. So few people realize that when us millennial's grandparents lectured us about behavior or dress they probably knew people who were incarcerated for those reasons. Has family or friends who went away indefinitely for reasons as simple as being a drunk woman out after 9pm.
Thankyou for taking about this! It also still happens today on the uk, tw assault, weaponised psychiatry, ableism....I've been narrowly avoiding it for the crime of... Reporting an assault by nurses which has left me bedridden. I've been having physical healthcare stripped away ever since (I'm having to go private which I'm so lucky i can afford noe after 2 years of this, and my g.p sypports me and os fighting it too, others aren't so lucky), and when i try and chase up the complaint/when ive tried to involve social worker or police, i just get threatened with sending to the psych ward and "wellness checks" from the police. There's also many many autistic people held indefinitely on psych wards at the moment. 💜
Reminds me of this one court case where 2 acomplices who basically did the same crime got massively different sentences. The one that felt extreme remorse to the point of wanting to commit self game over got basically double the prison sentence as the one who was less upset.
@@mirzaahmed6589 locking people in cages because of a well researched and treatable condition called substance use disorder is the modern version of government eugenics/political imprisonment against people they dont like, which tends to be people who are suffering as a result of the system that created the laws
Good to see this kind of content, important lessons to be had.Especially as civil rights are seemingly going backwards under the guise of "terrorism" and such.Seems stories like these could teach a thing or two about giving governments power (and allowing them to impose their own morals).
Hmm. Sure, sure there are things that are going the wrong way. Absolutely. But, at least in the US, it's less that the government has the power and way more the kind of people that are in the government. We have quite the Christian Nationalist problem at the mo.
Do the vast majority of politicians have morals? Many can easily be motivated by one lobbying group, or an other. The Chosen People believe that virtually everybody is corruptible, its just a question about how much money they want 😢🇺🇸🗳️💵
Gosh that is so sad as her behaviour can be the result of terrible trauma. Glad her sister got her out of there, because people can deteriorate severely.
Thank you for sharing. The laws prohibiting this are relatively new and are still inadequate. Involuntary incarceration due to mental illness is still ruining lives today.
!! I remember learning about the American case Buck v Bell that built off of this rise in institutions for disabled people and "social deviants" it's striking to me how that case is barely 100 years old AND still standing caselaw, but barely anyone I know talks about it
I do acknowledge that it's something horrible but there is some twisted comedy in there being a thing of "You're annoying, off to the shadow realm with you" Like if Twitter people could dole out life sentences for being someone they don't like
if u ever felt a bit of panic as a cop walked by bc u just lit up a joint, u actually have the empathy it takes to understand the everyday life of people trapped in these times, especially because people suffering with substance use disorder are routinely ostracized and demonized to suicide, and people love to blame drug use, but the only reason why it is a problem as big as it is now is due to the continued use of it to attack minorities and other people with these dumbass "moral failings" If you really want to tell a good joke, the state of the world and how it hasent changed, its just started using drugs as a reason so it could do all the same things, and for some reason people think we are in a more "advanced time" thats kinda where the true comedic horror of the situation comes from
In 55 or 56 my mother's mother was put into a mental facility for postpartum depression. They gave her shock treatment. Which basically rendered her unable to care for herself. She ended up dying in that facility years later.
Hi and always thanks, JD. Shining light on history good, bad, and all in between. Always appreciating you excellent oratory of such illuminations. Poor girl, Jessie; one of many many, subject to unjust, ignorant antiquated authority. It's wonderful that those calamities are all things of the long past. I wish 😢
There is a new group of people incarcerated indefinitely under new repealed legislation because they were given “indeterminate sentences”. Though repealed it wasn’t retroactive so there are still nearly 9,000 people who have no idea when if ever they will be released
All thats happened is the criteria have narrowed and thr categories divided between 'criminal' and 'mental health' to make it feel more acceptable to wider society. The practice continues.
@@Antipaxos_Nadja123 It is improving though and whilst important that we keep fighting to improve it, we mustn't lose sight of just how far we've come.
Being from the US, its not uncommon to arrest someone on a drug charge, false accusation, or minor crime and just leave them in prison for 10-20 years. Also, look up the statistics on people who haven’t even been found guilty in court being left to rot in jails.
This story is a warning about giving to much power to government but modern day Britain doesn't really need an example, all they need do is look out their window.
0:55 "She does not belong to you council people" - that's where you're wrong. Every "Social Security" Act (in the UK's case it's a National Insurance Number) legally dictates that you are now a subject of the State and the State can do what they want with you. If she had had not N.I. number, they wouldn't have been able to lock her up.
When you considered what happened under British colonial rule ALL over the world, this isn’t surprising at all. In fact, it’s almost negligible in the face of all other atrocities
Very disturbing, but for less reason, this still happens today in a number of parts of the world. I used to believe this didn't still happen in "civilized" societies. But the last few years have proven, you say the wrong thing, or show up in the wrong place, evem you can be detained for years without even coming before a court. "No, you've been detained for _something, we don't have to tell you what_ and you won't be released until the court addresses _what youve been detained for_ and well, you will have a court date _sometime_ in the future."
On the one hand, there is a real need for asylums to address people with genuine problems. On the other hand, the abuses of the asylums (both who was admitted for what reasons, and what happened to this people inside the asylums) was so horrific that I understand completely why the asylum system was shut down. But we still have the problem of people with genuine problems who need some sort of institutionalization, and they mostly won't institutionalize themselves. Now how to find the proper balance to ensure such a system doesn't degenerate into rampant abuse? I have no idea.
Institutions still exist for the extremes, I've worked in them. They're just have significantly more regulation, you have to record absolutely every interaction and justify every denial of liberty. They are far from perfect, they're typically underfunded meaning they hire basically anyone who wants the job at minimum wage, so you get a lot of a-holes who don't understand shit about mental health. But it's better than it was, and we should celebrate the small victories even if we have a long way to go.
How badly our fore-sisters suffered. Jessie H. might today be suspected of having experienced trauma. Thank you for the recommendation of Sarah Wise's book, her earlier one "The Blackest Streets" was excellent.
Good thing i live in the u.s. where... I can't even finish that joke in good conscience. This is horrible and happens far too often, both in the US and UK. And probably pretty much everywhere honestly
I've always felt that real-life mental institutions beat any horror movie hands down. Even as a kid, the scariest thing to me was always a person doing evil who thinks they are doing good.
Separate from the point being made: I don't know why but I got massive Hank OR John Greene vibes from this, good on you. On point, this is a major issue. The way mental health facilities function as indefinite prisons, often with harsher treatment and fewer protections, is a shameful existence for places claiming to be healthcare facilities.
In ireland there is somtbing similar with mental health. Even now if you are judged to be mentally ill you would be put into a mental health facility for a unknown time. It's so well known people who are mentally unwell try to go to normal prison as it wouldn't be as long
PSA: This still happens in the USA. People convicted of lesser crimes try to get "easier time" by getting the court to send them to a mental facility instead and then find out it's indefinite. Anything they do can potentially keep them there longer: showing that you're improved by taking on responsibilities? Clearly, this place is helping and you need some more time to complete your recovery. Stop doing chores? Clearly, you're depressed and you need some more time to improve. NO I am not kidding. Not a little bit of it. Really, "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" ought to be required reading/viewing in schools.
I'm an American and I read OFOTCN as required reading in high school (although this was the early '00s so who knows now), but I don't think we ever talked about how it still happens. The book seems like something that happened in the past.
This is a remnant of an era, not long past where the subjects of the crown don’t actually have rights, but instead mere suggestions that can be removed by the “authorities“ at their will. It can be argued that the status of true rights has not yet been established in the UK nor all of the monarchy’s former holdings.
What terrifies me is that if I was born back then I would probably never reach adult age. I would be definitely locked up in one of those institutions and wouldn't survive the treatment considering the illnesses that I have (mental and physical). Even though Victorians knew about one of them (well, I've seen the speculations that even ancient Greeks knew about it, and I'm talking about bipolar disorder). But from what I know, locking people up in mental institutions still happens. It's still possible that, if for example your neighbours would call the police, like it could be in my case: they could call and say that I'm manic and I'm danger to others, police would lock me up in mental hospital. Then my husband would have to take me from there and sign papers that he refuses my treatment and takes responsibility for my actions, I would have to sign that I refuse the treatment, I would get social worker assigned and there could be charges pressed against me. Even if I wouldn't do anything. And who of the law enforcement people would believe mentally ill person? So I'm just really cautious and in real life I don't talk about it with people I don't know well.
The soviets used to do that to dissidents they didn't want going to the gulag. Individuals they didn't want ever getting out or to politically dangerous.
Based on a real case, the 1974 Australian film '27A' depicts an alcoholic who finds himself permanently in detention under section 27A of Queensland's Mental Health Act.
Nowadays, it sounds like kids that would have been in the 'moral imbecile' category back then get called ASBOs. The government don't seem to actually help them, but at least they aren't locked up indefinitely.
"We do not want word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population,… Sanger, Margaret (eugenicist, Nazi sympathizer & advisor; founder of planned parenthood) (USA) “The most merciful thing a large family can to do to one of its infant members is to kill it.” - Margaret Sanger (“Women and the New Race,” p. 67)
Or maybe they knew what needed to be done to maintain a minimum ‘standard’ of living that would be expected by the majority of the Community. The problem isn’t the Laws themselves, it’s when they are abused by those who can wield that power. Hopefully this girl is no longer a danger to herself, and can maybe enjoy Life a little now.
There are plenty of tribes who would just kill you or put you into exile to die alone for being different, so this is more a failing of humanity than just Victorian England. There are places today where women have even less rights than they had in Victorian England.
That's laughable. Our justice system locks people up on bogus charges if they stand a good chance to win the presidency and they don't like the person. Meanwhile, hundreds if not thousands of others are getting away with actual child violating. Not ONE person on Epstein's list has been charged, but they sure were scared of that election taking place..
![How The British Government Covered Up Evidence Of Atrocities [Long Shorts]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/RIMkeRycCNw/mqdefault.jpg)
![How This Woman Survived Being Tortured At The Tower Of London [Long Shorts]](/img/n.gif)
If you're thinking 'gosh, isn't horrible what we used to do to people in the UK', I have some bad news for you...
Whats the news then?
Yeah, I was thinking this probably still happens, albeit at a much smaller percentage. I’m sure there are people who still fall through the cracks.
What do you think we should do ? Do you want this woman living in your house ? Maybe build a hospital just for her ? Because the places that used to take mentally ill people public opinion had closed down for their supposed cruelty. And now those millions of homeless people that have mental illness on the streets or stuck in a present somewhere. You can't have both. And I don't know if you hear people talking about what they want to pay taxes for and what they don't 😂 But you might have a problem getting money out of people. When the state of the government does it you ridicule the state and the government. What better idea do you have ? That's what I thought
@@matthew-jy5jp "Do you want this woman living in your house ?" Her mum sure did, from the sounds of it.
@@matthew-jy5jp I don't want you living in my house either, should we lock you up?
A friend of mine was a vicar whose parish included an old "asylum". At the far end of his graveyard he discovered several unmarked graves which turned out to be the stillborn children of unmarried mothers who had been locked up under the Mental Deficiency Act, some from as recent as the 1960s. There is, at least, a memorial to them now.
Hahahahah, lies. Same with the mass graves of Eskimo kids
@@sheehase Eskimo is a slur and a simple Google search would tell you that you are incorrect. There are dozens of thousands of those kids dead. There is plenty of video footage, eye witness accounts, DNA evidence photography, and survivor accounts out there that you can educate yourself with. Don't laugh at someone else's tragedy. No one thinks being uneducated is funny. Hold yourself to higher standards than that. Disliking something doesn't make it less true. Denying this is like pretending slavery didn't happen.
The Pope himself issued an apology for what they did to those kids at those schools. You can easily find the info about it here in UA-cam. Judging by your post history you probably have some sort of religious history with the Catholic Church. You saying the Pope is a liar?
@@sheehasehang around graveyards much yourself do you?
@@sheehase I should be careful if I were you. The Act is still on the statute books!
@@sheehaseyou think it's a lie based on... What? Because it makes you uncomfortable? Seems like a pretty bad reason to call someone a liar.
"Moral imbecile" is so insane. Like, even for the time.
much more direct than "sociopath"
How so?
@@windy8544 less?
"Imbecile" used to be a medical term for adults who had no more mental capacity than a young child (specifically, a 5 to 7 year old child). Similarly, "idiot" used to be a medical term for someone with with no more mental capacity than a 4 year old (30 IQ). "Moron" also used to be the term for mild intellectual disability (50 to 70 IQ).
These terms all gained offensive connotations in the 20th century and by the 60s were replaced with the R word (which also became predominantly used as an offensive term and replaced with general "disability"; which is likely resistant to the euphemism cycle affecting the others, since it's used for all types of disabilities, not just low mental development).
I should note that "IQ" is recognized to be baseless and highly culturally specific, it's not measuring some innate intelligence we have. So take the usage of it with a grain of salt.
Yes. That's what it means.
This still happens in some US states. In Virginia it's called civil commitment. People are held indefinitely, and revaluated every 5 years.
In Virginia they're held at the Marion Correctional Treatment Center. It was being investigated recently because a bunch of the inmates had hypothermia because the heating system wasn't working in some areas.
That's almost completely wrong. The problem is all you people wanted sanitariums and mental asylums closed because of their supposed cruelty. At once you closed those places you put all those mentally ill people on the street. These people are required to take medication every day because they have psychosis. Stop giving your opinion like you know what you're talking about.
It's funny how someone like you would complain about no place to put these people at the same time you complain about them being on the street. You can have it both ways mate. It was public opinion that closed these sanitoriums down. Which pushed all those mentally all people onto the street. Good luck finding people on the street to tell them to take their medication. I wanna see some proof about this place in Virginia because I think you're full of 💩
Disgusting. In the land of the free no less.
@@Aconitum_napellus The land of the free*
*If you meet specific criteria, namely being a wealthy, able-bodied, Ivy League educated, white person
substance use disorder is a treatable medical condition that typically arises as a behavioral quirk due to trauma to other illnesses
I had a great aunt that was rarely ever spoken about that was incarcerated as a child for bad behaviour, she was moved from place to place and died in a mental hospital in her 80s. All that I know for sure about her is that as a child she had seizures.
There are so many parts of family history like this, especially if your family was poor.
The idea was to keep them from reproducing and spreading their genetic defects. Like generational poverty.
I had a great Aunt who was put away most of her adult life for having an ‘inappropriate relationship’ and so institutionalised she could barely function when released to ‘care in the community’. 😢
That sounds horrible, your poor aunt
Good. Seems to have worked.
"inappropriate relationship"
Did she groom a kid?
@ewg5511 Nah, she probably held hands with a black guy.
I’m so glad you shine a bright light on all aspects of history - flattering, unfortunate, or complicated. The truth has a way of outting. I love your work.
It’s not just history sadly. This wolf still roams under the guise of a different sheep.
@juliabuonincontro8617 I couldn't say it better myself
While this is very well researched and true, it is worth noting that today UK prisons hold people sentenced for "the straw that broke the camel's back" offences that are indefinite.
Known as indefinite public protection orders (ipp), many such prisoners go on to develop mental health issues while in custody and those issues become reasons for justifying continuing custody
Agree. When IPP was introduced it was meant to be used extremely rarely. It has since been repealed but not retroactively.
Gonna sound a bit harsh, but if someone just keeps getting locked up the moment you release them multiple times, just dont let them out.
Yea the prison system is kinda fucked, but there is a reason it exists.
@@lukeonuke uh maybe prisons should be places where people are taught to behave, not places to punish people who "deserve it"?
like if these people were getting mental illnesses from being in prison then maybe they weren't being treated very humanely just saying
@@lukeonuke Or maybe the economy, social security and justice/prison systems is so broken that it creates problems where none would have existed before. It's called "Institutional syndrome" individuals in institutions, like prisons, may be deprived (whether unintentionally or not) of independence and of responsibility, to the point that once they return to "outside life" they are often unable to manage many of its demands. So yes "There is a reason it exists", just not a good one.
@@lukeonuke Not sounding harsh so much as sounding like a Daily Mail reader there...
Before all the diagnoses of autism, adhd, Schizophrenia etc.
It's horrifying on how many people were "put away" for the "benefit of society"
It's still horrorfying how many people are "put away" for the "benefit of society"
I mean...they could do it just because you were ugly, fam. There's a reason the richies kept their 'undesirables' in the attic or wherever.
Do you mean to imply it's over?
It's not really horrible, it was scientific excellence. Now all these crazy people are allowed to reproduce and spread their madness in social media and in laws. Look at the west now...
with the current diagnosis of substance use disorder
My great great grandmother was sent to an "asylum" near East Grinstead. In fairness, she had 5 children and her husband died leaving her destitute and had delusional experiences such as hearing people arguing where there wasn't anyone at all. That was 1892. She remained there until 1913 when she died of what was probably a brain tumor.
All her kids grew up in service, my great grandfather as a baker's assistant, but became a master baker in his own right.
Mental health isn't much better these days, but we don't always recognise mental health as the underlying cause of poor socialisation, unemployability or criminality.
We still do this in the US, though some parts of the country are worse than others. In the 70s, when the mental institutions started releasing large numbers of people who were not a danger to themselves or society, my great grandmother turned her home into a boarding house for several of these women. Their life stories were heartbreaking. Not everyone had families who were interested in ever getting them out or seeing them again. 💔
Substance use disorder is a diagnose-able medical condition that the law has decided people need to go to jail for
I used to live in Columbia, SC and they shut down the state mental hospital and just turned people out into the street and a lot of those people still live on the street within a few miles of where the hospital was. It's pitiful, there is no where for them to go.
Your great grandmother sounds like she was lovely woman
Why is it the family responsibility for fuck ups of others ?
@@ntal5859 Realistically, it's not. At the end of the day, the self will always want to live first.
These stories are heavy to hear but important to me, because with my neurodivergency and medical history, I know that this is how I could have ended up if I'd been living in other times
this is current legal practice, and the real everyday life for all of the millions of people with substance use disorder
@@AnthemUnanthemed What do you mean, they take people, even if they are underage, and they put them on like a working farm which they can't escape, without consent?
@@lupakajsalisa3652 literally the current prison system in the united states and a number of other countries still do it too, the 13th amendment in the constitution allows for the enslavement "as punishment for a crime", and has deemed medical conditions illegal, and can and does prosecute some children as adults for things like drugs in some states.
In Ontario we had a similar law, which was abused by eugenicisits to perform experiments.
Could you please share any more info on these experiments? Maybe some research papers?
@FritzHeiger Just Google the Andrew Mercer Reformatory for women. Women could even be locked up for being in sexual relationships (married or not) with non-white men.
You live in Ontario, you're all eugenicists.
@@ThePrairieChronicles Oh god, Canada was indirectly involved with… fucking yikes…
Having had friends having their sons or daughters incarcerated in a similar type of institution in New Zealand in the 1980s, I can easily assure you the cure is worse than the cause 😖
There must be so many people who were put away for being suicidal who became more suicidal because they were put away.
But hey, some people were prevented from committing suicide that way, and that's all that matters, right? They can be as miserable as humanly possible as long as they stay alive.
Dead people don't create money for the system.
Live miserably for as long as humanly possible? Are you the devil himself?!? GTFO
And society was better back then. Grow up, dem lib progress Fauci lover
Am I right!
I used to volunteer at a care home in the 90s, for elderly people with learning difficulties. The director told me that many of them had been institutionalised as young people, for things such as having sex out of wedlock, and would have been quite capable of living normal lives, except that they were now unable to do so because of spending their whole lives in institutions. At least we were able to give them some comfort and dignity in their old age.
Tony Blair introduced "weekend prison" so convicts could keep an outside life including job. It was quietly cancelled without explanation. I happen to know why. The prisoners would meet up at the pub nearest the prison at midday Friday; drink themselves stupid; report to the prison at 6pm; since they near catatonic none of the normal in-processing and security checks could take place. They were put straight to bed and slept their way through Saturday. Sunday morning they were given breakfast and released.
All arguments in favour of convicts fall apart once you interact with convicts.
Hello J.D.... haven't seen you for a while - at least, not in my 'subscriptions' feed, - so it was a moment of joy when I clicked to listen. Not sure where you've been but so glad to see you back and hope you're in good health! Keep you're light shining bright! ~ Cobs (UK) x
As a tbi person negotiating the tight rope walk of social interaction, I appreciate your shining some light on the insensitivity of society.
Sensitivity, unfortunately, is easily manipulated and exploited. Behind every great light, there is a great shadow.
Before the end I was bracing so hard that 3 years came as a relief - not as long as I had feared. In my home country we had a policy of forced sterilization for similar cases far to close to now for comfort. "back in the good old days"...
The USA has this too. Insanity pleas are NOT a way to "get away with it" . The doctors get to decide if you are "better". Unless it is life in prison you are facing, being institutionalized can be worse than jail. Imagine being medicated "for your own safety" for the rest of your life.
actually no they just lock the people suffering with substance use disorder in prison with the rest of the "criminals" (the more you look into it the more u realize prison in general doesnt work and makes problems much worse), all of societies current problems can fairly regularly be tracked back to the leaders of the nation, you shouldnt need violence or threats to control people, and you will breed hatred and rebelion as a result expecially when they never listened to reason or science or fact, and just chose to try to modify reality itself to fit their brutalized fantasy
I'm well aware of that if I had been born 50 years earlier, I would have spent my life locked up like my grandmothers sister. I'm autistic and so were probably she too.
Unfortunatly, society still hates us and wants us to adapt, something that shortens our lifespans with around 10 years. So it's not yet time for society to patt it's back. It needs to become inclusive, not trying to force us squares through round holes.
Its more like lifespan shortened by 25-30 years, not 10.
@@stiofanmacamhalghaidhau765 Not correct. We have a shorter lifespan due to a lot of reasons, like drowning and suicide, when you add them up, it's more like the number you gave, but I was only refering to this one thing.
Which begs the question, what drives people to die by suicide? Or die of complications of neglected medical conditions, or from heart attack or stroke arising from the actual #1 cause of death for autistics, ie hypertension, as a result of substance abuse, partner or carer violence, etc etc. All those are deaths arising from marginalisation, isolation, exclusion, and discrimination. You cant marginalise or exclude yourself. It gets done to you, and from a societal perspective, its systemic from state and institutional level down to interpersonal relations. On that basis the 25-30 year shorter life expectancy is very much a "done to us by others" thing as the actual impact of life-limiting conditions barely shifts above the sicietal average - theres nothing inherent in being autistic that leads to liwer life expectancy. Tho arguing even part of that has been quite a battle ongoing for decades now.
This is such an important perspective to have. So few people realize that when us millennial's grandparents lectured us about behavior or dress they probably knew people who were incarcerated for those reasons. Has family or friends who went away indefinitely for reasons as simple as being a drunk woman out after 9pm.
Thankyou for taking about this! It also still happens today on the uk, tw assault, weaponised psychiatry, ableism....I've been narrowly avoiding it for the crime of... Reporting an assault by nurses which has left me bedridden. I've been having physical healthcare stripped away ever since (I'm having to go private which I'm so lucky i can afford noe after 2 years of this, and my g.p sypports me and os fighting it too, others aren't so lucky), and when i try and chase up the complaint/when ive tried to involve social worker or police, i just get threatened with sending to the psych ward and "wellness checks" from the police.
There's also many many autistic people held indefinitely on psych wards at the moment. 💜
Reminds me of this one court case where 2 acomplices who basically did the same crime got massively different sentences. The one that felt extreme remorse to the point of wanting to commit self game over got basically double the prison sentence as the one who was less upset.
Ireland called them Magdelene Laundries and you didn't even need to go in front of a judge!
One of my favorite songs is factory girls flogging Molly
Fascinating thank you. Hi from the east coast of Canada and I hope you're doing great.
If you want to learn about the American version of this, look up Mad in America.
I have no clue what that is but the "historical" american version is the present day surrounding substance use disorder
@@AnthemUnanthemed no idea what you're trying to say.
@@mirzaahmed6589 locking people in cages because of a well researched and treatable condition called substance use disorder is the modern version of government eugenics/political imprisonment against people they dont like, which tends to be people who are suffering as a result of the system that created the laws
Good to see this kind of content, important lessons to be had.Especially as civil rights are seemingly going backwards under the guise of "terrorism" and such.Seems stories like these could teach a thing or two about giving governments power (and allowing them to impose their own morals).
Hmm. Sure, sure there are things that are going the wrong way. Absolutely. But, at least in the US, it's less that the government has the power and way more the kind of people that are in the government. We have quite the Christian Nationalist problem at the mo.
Do the vast majority of politicians have morals? Many can easily be motivated by one lobbying group, or an other. The Chosen People believe that virtually everybody is corruptible, its just a question about how much money they want 😢🇺🇸🗳️💵
Gosh that is so sad as her behaviour can be the result of terrible trauma.
Glad her sister got her out of there, because people can deteriorate severely.
Thank you for sharing. The laws prohibiting this are relatively new and are still inadequate. Involuntary incarceration due to mental illness is still ruining lives today.
modern day eugenics folks. it never went away, just got ignored.
!! I remember learning about the American case Buck v Bell that built off of this rise in institutions for disabled people and "social deviants"
it's striking to me how that case is barely 100 years old AND still standing caselaw, but barely anyone I know talks about it
being prisoned or institutionalized is literally my worst fear
I do acknowledge that it's something horrible but there is some twisted comedy in there being a thing of
"You're annoying, off to the shadow realm with you"
Like if Twitter people could dole out life sentences for being someone they don't like
if u ever felt a bit of panic as a cop walked by bc u just lit up a joint, u actually have the empathy it takes to understand the everyday life of people trapped in these times, especially because people suffering with substance use disorder are routinely ostracized and demonized to suicide, and people love to blame drug use, but the only reason why it is a problem as big as it is now is due to the continued use of it to attack minorities and other people with these dumbass "moral failings"
If you really want to tell a good joke, the state of the world and how it hasent changed, its just started using drugs as a reason so it could do all the same things, and for some reason people think we are in a more "advanced time" thats kinda where the true comedic horror of the situation comes from
In 55 or 56 my mother's mother was put into a mental facility for postpartum depression. They gave her shock treatment. Which basically rendered her unable to care for herself. She ended up dying in that facility years later.
Hi and always thanks, JD. Shining light on history good, bad, and all in between. Always appreciating you excellent oratory of such illuminations. Poor girl, Jessie; one of many many, subject to unjust, ignorant antiquated authority. It's wonderful that those calamities are all things of the long past. I wish 😢
Has this at least been repealed?
It was overwritten by the Mental Health Act, but they were still finding people locked up under it in the 1990s.
@@JDraper so it was basically life in prison?
There is a new group of people incarcerated indefinitely under new repealed legislation because they were given “indeterminate sentences”. Though repealed it wasn’t retroactive so there are still nearly 9,000 people who have no idea when if ever they will be released
All thats happened is the criteria have narrowed and thr categories divided between 'criminal' and 'mental health' to make it feel more acceptable to wider society. The practice continues.
@@JDraper Wow. Fascinating, thank you.
Ableism, sexism and classism, yay!
Yay indeed
Silent crying for the past people.
The Holy Trinity of Victorian Britain
@@latch9781 and also modern Britain sadly
@@Antipaxos_Nadja123 It is improving though and whilst important that we keep fighting to improve it, we mustn't lose sight of just how far we've come.
@@PCDelorian facts
Being from the US, its not uncommon to arrest someone on a drug charge, false accusation, or minor crime and just leave them in prison for 10-20 years. Also, look up the statistics on people who haven’t even been found guilty in court being left to rot in jails.
Ah yes, the caring society.
I like the book recommendation at the end
So great to see a fresh video from you J Draper! Excellent as always, no matter how bad the topic makes my stomach feel. :)
Yet another good example for smaller government. 🙄
In California we have a very progressive open air asylum called San Francisco
Exactly. You have one or the other it seems.
This story is a warning about giving to much power to government but modern day Britain doesn't really need an example, all they need do is look out their window.
Same thing took place i Denmark. The small islands of Sprogø and Livø are known for housing morally deficient women and men respectively
Yikes! What a story. So many emotions in such a short amount of time
Sounds like a better system than we have now.
I'm also a moral imbecile
Not many are brave enough to admit they are a politician, I applaud your courage,
I believe all .
0:55 "She does not belong to you council people" - that's where you're wrong. Every "Social Security" Act (in the UK's case it's a National Insurance Number) legally dictates that you are now a subject of the State and the State can do what they want with you. If she had had not N.I. number, they wouldn't have been able to lock her up.
When you considered what happened under British colonial rule ALL over the world, this isn’t surprising at all. In fact, it’s almost negligible in the face of all other atrocities
Always enjoy your company. Thanks again, British Lady
Very disturbing, but for less reason, this still happens today in a number of parts of the world. I used to believe this didn't still happen in "civilized" societies. But the last few years have proven, you say the wrong thing, or show up in the wrong place, evem you can be detained for years without even coming before a court. "No, you've been detained for _something, we don't have to tell you what_ and you won't be released until the court addresses _what youve been detained for_ and well, you will have a court date _sometime_ in the future."
Chicks, huh?
She didn’t belong to her mother either. Children are people. With rights. Even now, the law does not always agree, however.
That category encompasses most politicians and world leaders
Oh yeah, I remember a GK Chesterton piece about that. Was it in ‘eugenics and other evils’ I think?
On the one hand, there is a real need for asylums to address people with genuine problems. On the other hand, the abuses of the asylums (both who was admitted for what reasons, and what happened to this people inside the asylums) was so horrific that I understand completely why the asylum system was shut down. But we still have the problem of people with genuine problems who need some sort of institutionalization, and they mostly won't institutionalize themselves. Now how to find the proper balance to ensure such a system doesn't degenerate into rampant abuse? I have no idea.
Institutions still exist for the extremes, I've worked in them.
They're just have significantly more regulation, you have to record absolutely every interaction and justify every denial of liberty.
They are far from perfect, they're typically underfunded meaning they hire basically anyone who wants the job at minimum wage, so you get a lot of a-holes who don't understand shit about mental health.
But it's better than it was, and we should celebrate the small victories even if we have a long way to go.
How badly our fore-sisters suffered. Jessie H. might today be suspected of having experienced trauma.
Thank you for the recommendation of Sarah Wise's book, her earlier one "The Blackest Streets" was excellent.
'fore-sisters'
lol
I'm thoroughly convinced we need to bring back these facilities.
Good thing i live in the u.s. where...
I can't even finish that joke in good conscience. This is horrible and happens far too often, both in the US and UK. And probably pretty much everywhere honestly
That’s nightmare fuel. It is one of the most glaring deficiencies in mental health.
Guess she shouldnt've stolen that jacket, eh?
I've always felt that real-life mental institutions beat any horror movie hands down. Even as a kid, the scariest thing to me was always a person doing evil who thinks they are doing good.
Separate from the point being made: I don't know why but I got massive Hank OR John Greene vibes from this, good on you.
On point, this is a major issue. The way mental health facilities function as indefinite prisons, often with harsher treatment and fewer protections, is a shameful existence for places claiming to be healthcare facilities.
What a wonderful use of the British public's money.
You are going to be locked up J. Draper for no reason at all!
0:42 Can you imagine being told by the courts that your loved one was getting locked up indefinitely for being annoying?
In ireland there is somtbing similar with mental health. Even now if you are judged to be mentally ill you would be put into a mental health facility for a unknown time.
It's so well known people who are mentally unwell try to go to normal prison as it wouldn't be as long
No matter how harsh it sounds to us today, but "imbecil", "debil", "idiot" were formal categories of mental capacity of a person back in the days...
still happens to people who receive an NCR verdict in canada
PSA: This still happens in the USA. People convicted of lesser crimes try to get "easier time" by getting the court to send them to a mental facility instead and then find out it's indefinite. Anything they do can potentially keep them there longer: showing that you're improved by taking on responsibilities? Clearly, this place is helping and you need some more time to complete your recovery. Stop doing chores? Clearly, you're depressed and you need some more time to improve. NO I am not kidding. Not a little bit of it. Really, "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" ought to be required reading/viewing in schools.
This happened to me, I was held for 11 years over this inhumane loophole
I'm an American and I read OFOTCN as required reading in high school (although this was the early '00s so who knows now), but I don't think we ever talked about how it still happens. The book seems like something that happened in the past.
Also explains, why anyone caught entering say Buckingham palace and the like are also charged under the mental health act…
This is a remnant of an era, not long past where the subjects of the crown don’t actually have rights, but instead mere suggestions that can be removed by the “authorities“ at their will. It can be argued that the status of true rights has not yet been established in the UK nor all of the monarchy’s former holdings.
What terrifies me is that if I was born back then I would probably never reach adult age. I would be definitely locked up in one of those institutions and wouldn't survive the treatment considering the illnesses that I have (mental and physical). Even though Victorians knew about one of them (well, I've seen the speculations that even ancient Greeks knew about it, and I'm talking about bipolar disorder). But from what I know, locking people up in mental institutions still happens. It's still possible that, if for example your neighbours would call the police, like it could be in my case: they could call and say that I'm manic and I'm danger to others, police would lock me up in mental hospital. Then my husband would have to take me from there and sign papers that he refuses my treatment and takes responsibility for my actions, I would have to sign that I refuse the treatment, I would get social worker assigned and there could be charges pressed against me. Even if I wouldn't do anything. And who of the law enforcement people would believe mentally ill person? So I'm just really cautious and in real life I don't talk about it with people I don't know well.
I mean, I can get behind ridding myself of annoying people, but I usually just tell them to bug someone else.
....til 1975, after One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest
Still happens with indefinite terms for petty crime.
Nothings changed.
The soviets used to do that to dissidents they didn't want going to the gulag. Individuals they didn't want ever getting out or to politically dangerous.
Have you ever thought that normal people just aren't particularly moral?
Now all you have to do is tell a spicy joke.
“The undesirables“ sounds a lot like “people with inacceptable views” according to Trudeau, or “the deplorable“ according to Hillary Clinton.
Can confirm. They hate US.
Based on a real case, the 1974 Australian film '27A' depicts an alcoholic who finds himself permanently in detention under section 27A of Queensland's Mental Health Act.
Thanks for the book recommendation.
Oh we are not better nowadays - we are just more subtle.
Ahhh the good ole days...
Nowadays, it sounds like kids that would have been in the 'moral imbecile' category back then get called ASBOs. The government don't seem to actually help them, but at least they aren't locked up indefinitely.
Sounds like things we need to do in the USA we got a lot of Moral Imbeciles in politics.
Sings the single mom song 🎶🎶
Sounds like a product of the Eugenics movement.
"We do not want word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population,… Sanger, Margaret (eugenicist, Nazi sympathizer & advisor; founder of planned parenthood) (USA) “The most merciful thing a large family can to do to one of its infant members is to kill it.” - Margaret Sanger (“Women and the New Race,” p. 67)
Or maybe they knew what needed to be done to maintain a minimum ‘standard’ of living that would be expected by the majority of the Community. The problem isn’t the Laws themselves, it’s when they are abused by those who can wield that power. Hopefully this girl is no longer a danger to herself, and can maybe enjoy Life a little now.
Moral Imbeciles perfectly describes the political class.
Sounds like THE GIRL WITH THE DRAGON TATOO.
I never again want to hear Brits complaining about some of the crap we Yanks have pulled. Not saying this person has, but it has happened from others.
I think most societies had/have such rules and places. It's a human shame, and I hope it ends.
There are plenty of tribes who would just kill you or put you into exile to die alone for being different, so this is more a failing of humanity than just Victorian England. There are places today where women have even less rights than they had in Victorian England.
Part of the eugenics movement
Is this why some of my fellow Americans think we're the freest country?
America had its own version of this.
That's laughable. Our justice system locks people up on bogus charges if they stand a good chance to win the presidency and they don't like the person. Meanwhile, hundreds if not thousands of others are getting away with actual child violating. Not ONE person on Epstein's list has been charged, but they sure were scared of that election taking place..
Sadly there are still people in prison today who've got no release date. IPPs. One guy has done about 15 years for nicking a bike.
In Australia many people, especially youths, are killed by police, even in their own homes, because of strange or threatening behaviour.
We all know that the powers that be own everybody. We have no voice. Only the criminals get rights
Thanks