When I was a new Christian I loved listening to James MacDonald, David Moore, and Andy Stanley. Batting a thousand here. Somehow God protected my mind and led me to John MacArthur, RC Sproul, Spurgeon, Washer, Baucham, and yes, even Friel. What a difference biblical teachers can make.
Study what Martin Luther said."Scripture ONLY Scripture." God's word is the only thing you need. All these books to read are not the Bible. The authors put their own twist on Scripture. The only one I liked was Billy Graham. He only talked about Jesus Christ. The Scripture is Jesus Christ. The Apostles only preached Jesus Christ. There are men that call themselves Apostles. There were only 12 including Paul. These nut jobs today will only get you confused.
John MacArthur's Doctrine is unbiblical. He speaks about gifts of the spirit such as healing, speaking in tongues and prophecy as a thing of the past. But the Bible states this specifically in 1 corinthians 13: 8-10 "Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. " The perfect is Jesus Christ, God made man, who hasn't arrived for the second time yet. So the partial is still not done away. This is why you need to study the Word. "My people perish for lack of knowledge...." Hosea 4:6. Don't Let the theology of man sway you because their Theatrics, Education and/or Rhetoric sound good. Stay Vigilant and Maranatha!
Look up perfect in Greek, means complete not perfection as we use it. Also look up when that which is perfect “shall come” ek mortentos “ which means bit by bit” what did we receive that is complete but by bit? Ps I’m saying all this off memory right now
@@cole5773 I'm glad you said this. Not perfection but complete. Who is the only one who has been completed into perfection of the body? Jesus as he proved it when he went through walls after the resurrection. What did we receive that is complete bit by bit? Our perfect bodies. When did we receive our perfect bodies? When we started hoping in what was announced in faith. "Bit by bit" means there are things that have to happen before "completion" aka Jesus, comes back. That there's a schedule for the end so that no one deceives us. He literally warns us when the disciples ask him about it in Matthew 24:3
I had the same experience, when I was new Christian I was introduced to Joyce Meyer, and I thought why is she like that with some arrogance , Charles Capp , I forgot the other name from name it claim it teachings and Benny Himm too , I thank God that He removed me from those teaching and was so grateful that led to RC Sproul , Voddie Buckham , Paul Washer and most of the Ligonier ministry
I agree, but there's likely lots of disagreement over what this precisely means/how it is precisely defined. It draws a line, for sure. But where that line exists is going to have some degree of variance depending on who you ask. That isn't to say it's a subjective truth by any means, but it is to say that there is at best a moderate degree of difficulty in coming to a consensus or perfect understanding... even among brothers who are seriously minded and seeking the truth on the matter. Just like nearly every other doctrine where real Christians are prayerfully looking at the same information in the same book asking their same God to guide them into truth, yet still coming to quite drastically different conclusions.
@@gray_rain some of the line could probably drawn at the other qualifying factor of having "a good standing in the community". Even the outside world see these pastors as shameful. But at the end of the day a "lead pastor" needs to be on the same level as any other elder. 99% of the time these lead pastors override the wisdom of the other elders. when that happens run.
Robert morris sin happened 35 years ago ago! We all better learn to extend the same grace and mercy that God gave the entire world! We will be judged by the same measure! We use James 2:13 “For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.” Galatians 6:1-8 English Standard Version Bear One Another's Burdens 6 Brothers,[a] if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. 2 Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. 3 For if anyone thinks he is something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself. 4 But let each one test his own work, and then his reason to boast will be in himself alone and not in his neighbor. 5 For each will have to bear his own load. 6 Let the one who is taught the word share all good things with the one who teaches. 7 Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. 8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
@Packhorse-bh8qn 1 Corinthians 5:5 deals with the destruction of a person's body. However, I was referring to the body of the local denomination and not the body of Christ.
Agree, however the fact they are being restored contrary to the teachings of the early church just proves we are in the last days, where false prophets, and teachers with proliferate. Jesus did say end time events would get worse, and many will fall away from the Truth before His coming, so in a way these false pastors serve a purpose as proof and a warning to those who are waiting and watching for Jesus return. He is coming very soon, in this generation.
This is primarily a MEGA pastor syndrome. We put them back in office because we forget that a growing church does not necessarily mean that God's church is growing.
I agree with the previous person commenting. I've seen this type of thing play out in smaller/local churches as I don't attend the "mega-church" variety as well. I immediately lose interest when pastors do not utilize Scripture, and when they promote unbiblical views on tithing, etc. Sexual sin is bad, but these other sins by those in the ministry are almost as bad.
I believe the rampant abuse is worse in smaller assemblies. Egotistical leaders who refuse to have deacons because they are afraid that they will vote out a bad pastor. It’s easy for an embittered and disgruntled person to get into ministry and then abuse the flock in order to vent personal rage and frustration. I have witnessed this problem many times, and it is a common issue in the fundamentalist churches. These sorts of men will never submit to elder oversight. It’s also unbiblical. 🙏🏼
@Packhorse-bh8qn Pastors are called Elders in my church. We call them pastors also. They do exactly what scripture says for Elders to do. Pastor is just a word. Don’t get hung up on it.
The thing I most look forward to in Heaven is the absence of temptation and sin. The sins I have committed while claiming to be a Christian have caused me to question my salvation. Men, I cannot urge you strongly enough. PLEASE avoid pornography.
Amen. You, all of you who may read this: you can't win on your own but only by the power of God. It is good to hate the sin, but you must also replace it with something you love. You love Jesus, you love your wife, or the hope for a wife someday, you love your family, and for the sake if these you fight your temptation. Signed a freeman
Exactly. This is why we are warned about wolves in sheep's clothing. This very thing. Wolves don't become sheep and tares don't become wheat. Enough is enough.
Robert Morris supposedly went through 2 years of restoration with counseling and attending the freedom ministry. Really, it was all of one month then he joined James Robison’s ministry. 2 years after being found molesting a minor, he was made an Elder of Shady Grove church in Texas. Shame on the Shady Grove Leadership! 🤬. This is all in His book.
A fall begins when a leader doesn’t have an accountability group, and lives a transparent life. I worked for a pastor for 16 years until I had to quit to take care of an elderly parent. His wife and his assistant had 100% access to his iCloud calendar. He always went to lunch with a group of people, not just one person. He was DAILY in the Word, and never put himself in potential compromising situations. 25 years later, he’s still implementing these practices and the Lord has blessed him with a healthy growing church. Obedience brings blessing.
The main reason this Pastor restoration issue has become prevalent, I believe, is because these pastors cannot divorce their identity from their pastoral role. Their identity is not in Christ. It is in being a pastor. And the fact that they were celebrities also feeds into the identity. So they really have no idea what to do without that identity.
Yes, they have no skill whatsoever. They are used by Satan to lead people astray and cause people to blaspheme the Name of God. But people love power and worship anyone other than God who has some. I know James MacDonalds sons also got into being pastors. They saw how rich it made their dad.
The problem is these men are so eager to step back into leadership...why not just do an honest days work framing houses, running electrical wire or selling cars? They can simply serve by being a serving part of their local congregations without teaching?
Living like the common man does nothing for their ego. That's why they become preachers in the 1 place. Wowing people with great swelling words gives them a buzz that doing humble work like carpentry doesnt.
@@mikemuncy7464These hirelings may think that a pastoral position is easy, or they may want to make it easy, but it is not a cushy position. Preaching funerals, counseling the troubled, dealing with heresy, and having demonic sights set on your position is daunting. Pastors who actually care about their flock and genuinely honor God often work themselves to death. Burnout in ministry is a serious problem. When I was in Bible college we looked at the statistics and I was shocked at how bad it is in the US! 🙏🏼
These so called pastors have crossed a line, they have blatantly sinned against God with no form of repentance to God, if there was true repentance, they would not be standing behind a pulpit.
Huh? What does being brehind the pulpit again have to do with repentance??? Repentance is a change of mind Robert morris sin happened 35 years ago ago! We best offer the Same grace and mercy God have all! James 2:13 “For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.” Galatians 6:1-8 English Standard Version Bear One Another's Burdens 6 Brothers,[a] if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. 2 Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. 3 For if anyone thinks he is something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself. 4 But let each one test his own work, and then his reason to boast will be in himself alone and not in his neighbor. 5 For each will have to bear his own load. 6 Let the one who is taught the word share all good things with the one who teaches. 7 Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. 8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
@@kevinburke1325 what did he do specifically that was so agregious I can only find quite vague accusations about him. I like watching his sermons so would be interested in knowing.
I watched an interview as Carl Lentz and his wife discussed what happened when he committed adultery. It was all upbeat and lessons learned, his wife had forgiven him and now they’re using this experience to “help” others. Absolutely shocking. Not even a hint of godly sorrow at having grieved a holy God.
The victims are scared for life. Yes we’re new creations when we become Christians but the memories are there always and we bring every thought captive in obedience to Christ empowered by the Holy Spirit
@@charmainehopkins2372 I’m not sure I would agree in every case. Often times the other person involved knows full well that what they are doing is equally sinful yet they continue on in their sin. While it’s sad that they are led astray by a shepherd the truth is that you would be hard pressed to say that they didn’t in most cases, participate willingly.
About 16 years ago, a pastor that had been ousted, was begged to come back to his pulpit. He had been in an adulterous relationship with the school principal. The board pleaded for his return because the membership had gone from 500+/- to 50 or so in his 10 year absence and they couldn’t keep up the payment on the building they built just before his dismissal. Upon his return, I attended there for a few months as I was returning to Jesus after my own wayward stint. I wasn’t prepared for the pride, arrogance and even calling people out from the pulpit for things he didn’t like! One huge impassioned plea later, the Lord led me to a different church. I no longer live in the area and have no idea if he’s still preaching, but one thing; his return really raised attendance!
@@jesusbeloved3953 WOW 😢 That's not good at all. To be more concerned with çrowd levels and money than righteousness of the leader, Jesus doesn't like that👎
@@robindear5043 I totally agree with what you're saying. So many I imagine only want what makes them feel good or is in agreement with how they think NOT what the scriptures teach. I'm in no way perfect as a Christian. But when Christ said "You'll know them by there fruit". It is so true. Take Care!!
It's like capital punishment. NO one wants to (well, no Christians should 'want' to) implement capital punishment OR Church discipline. But it is there to keep law and order, and the PURITY of the Bride of Christ.
I agree with you how church discipline is needed to keep law and order in the church. Church discipline is needed to protect the integrity of the church and to protect God's word. Everyone sins, and no one is perfect, but there are certain kinds of sins, infractions, etc that damage a person's role model status in regards to being a pastor, youth minister, elder, deacon, Sunday School teacher, etc. When someone's role model status is compromised in regards to being in a leadership position in a church, they need to be held accountable and removed from that position. There are certain kinds of infractions, sins, etc that warrant never being a pastor ever again. If a pastor molests a child, rapes someone, has sex with an underage teenage girl, etc, they should never work as a pastor ever again for the remainder of their life.
@@jeepstergal12 Wrong. Capital punishment (the death penalty) "may have been" appropriate for Old Testament Jews (before Christ), but it's definitely not appropriate for New Testament Christians to practice. Read Romans 12.
I agree that Todd is a master communicator but he does not know how to handle the Word of God. If you know the real thing, the counterfeit is painfully obvious.
Interesting how all replies here didn't really address the OP's point, but dismiss the content of the video or Todd homself while giving no basis or justification for that, like they just needed an excuse to let their mouth to male gn someone they don't like
You are right on, Todd. I've been watching this "restoration" trend for years and it's not good. I'm all for bringing fallen pastors back into the fold, but not in any leadership role whatsoever. The Church in America is under God's judgement right now because of things like this. If we ever expect to see God's blessing on the Church and the nation, we need to get back to Biblically grounded qualifications of leadership.
It would help if we stopped referring to preachers as pastors. Preachers can be pastors and pastors can be preachers, but they are not automatically the same thing.
@@failingdisciple938 A pastor (the same thing as an elder) is one of a group of spiritual overseers in a church, and he must meet the qualifications found in 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1. Pastor means shepherd. His main job is to take care of the flock (the church), not to preach (but of course he can preach, like I said, and he must be able to teach). A preacher‘s job is to educate, not to oversee the church. And they are not subject to the same qualifications as pastors.
@@rh9626 good answer. Our church has designate roles, though we do call all of them a "pastor" of some kind. 1) Lead Pastor - main preacher, teacher and spiritual care. 2) Associate pastor - organizes small group sessions (aka Bible Study & Fellowship groups) and church wide annual events like VBS and church camp. 3) Teaching pastor - supports the lead pastor in the preaching role. This is a part-time position. 4) Worship pastor - rehearses the musical teams and sings/play with us. 5) Youth pastor - pastors kids grades 6 thru high school. 6) Children's pastor - pastors kids age birth thru 5th grade. I get what you're saying that not every pastor is a preacher, and some of our pastors fit that description. In our church only our Lead, Teaching, and occasionally Youth pastors preach to the whole congregation.
@@sidwhiting665 I believe this is why there are some traditions that hold to the only listed offices in scripture, elder and deacon. The elder would be a pastoral role, so sometimes it would be referred as a shepherd-elder. Then there are those who have different gifts and they minister to the church with those gifts, teachers, children's lessons, nursery, worship music.... but there are only two offices, and no titles or honorary descriptors. Even pastor as a title is shunned in our church.
I’m so over these Pastors being restored to preaching and the church putting them on a pedestal! How is that holding accountability or consequences for their appalling behaviour. It’s never usually a one off either. Love your channel Todd. 🙏
Our ex pastor committed adultery on his wife while we were there. It was found out and the church destroyed the woman and lifted up the pastor! He never left the pulpit and is still there today! We left and were abused for leaving!!! It still to this day saddens me as he is still the CEO … I mean pastor of the church
This happened at one of the churches we went to when I was growing up. It turned my mom off from going to church and we never went back to church at all after that.
Having 1 person over the church is never a good idea, the biblical church had multiple leaders called elders/overseers since Christ is head over the church and the safeguard is unity in Christ along with the qualifications. If the head of the church isn’t Jesus why be a part of it? If there’s 1 guy clearly on top directing where’s the safeguard? It’s that guy which isn’t a very strong safeguard.
At a former church we attended the youth pastor was involved with one of the young girls in youth group. When it was find out he wws removed. This man a few years later now is a pastor at a church and his wife also is a "pastor" at this church. This was many years ago but I will say I wouldn't want him near my daughters and this was close to thirty years ago.
One of the stand out moments for me in the documentary "The secrets of Hillsong", was when Carl Lentz had left the ministry and was in "normal" work focusing on rebuilding trust with his family. When I heard he'd been restored and was now a pastor again I just sighed... :( And then when I suggest these pastors should not be restored into ministry, I get accused of being graceless.
Once a Pastor loses the trust of his congregation, he should absolutely be stripped of all Pastoral, and official Church positions. Pastors are rightfully held to a much higher standard by God. The responsibilities of a Pastor are very important, and serious trespasses are opportunities for attacks from the secular world as they look for any reason to discredit the entire Church. The Catholic Church is seriously tainted by pedophiles in the ranks. Worse yet, is offenders are protected, and moved around.
Perfect example with the failure of RCC to demand full accountability. Problem is that just allows past offenders to re-offend. Leadership must have trust, and trust is HARD to regain once it has been lost. Seems like Protestant mega churches are way too lenient when it comes to this "restoration" business. Restore the sinner, yes! But do not restore to the office!
But the bible doesn't say you can't restore a once fallen pastor. Todd reaches beyond the scriptures on this one. Also, what the early church father's say on this is opinion, not scripture. Nothing in the bible says removal is for life.
“For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;” 2 Timothy 3:2-4
Your entry seems to be the most scriptural and complete reason to deny one who has gone from the Lord , to return to public post. Yet we aren’t to judge . The so called pastor is held to an even higher standard than we and the Lord will indeed deal with it. Amen
@@marcisaacs9407 this is what the Pharisees said when the Lord spoke to them concerning their hypocrisy The fruit is what speaks for any of us The emphasis must be on the WINE not wineskins
Don’t forget power, influence, and prestige. Low self esteem persons often seek positions that elevate themselves from their past. The “I am going to show everyone who I really am. They never understood my full potential.” mentality. Sadly, the ministry is packed with unqualified, ungifted, and self-called pastors. As bad as the problem is stateside, it’s much worse abroad. They are far from oversight and many write bogus reports on their ministries to supporting churches. I have witnessed this firsthand.🙏🏼
@@drjcw if this person is judgmental, then perhaps it is because Jesus says, "Do not judge only according to appearances, but judge with righteous judgment." - John 7:24 A good rule of thumb I've heard used for this is, "If the pastor lives in the nicest house and drives the nicest cars in the church, odds are he's in it for the money." We are called to be discerning and given gifts to do so. Do not fail to use them due to the old misused of "Judge not," which is all too common.
@sidwhiting665 Sid, all the judgements are by appearance, every single one. We haven't heard the other side. And if my pastor drives a nice car and has a nice house, great for him. It's none of my business. It's none of my business what you drive, and I won't judge you if I see you.
@@drjcw The Bible clearly warns of people like this. Matthew 7:15-16 [15] “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. [16] You will recognize them by their fruits.
Thank you. Someone finally grts it and says it out loud!!!!!!!! A unrepentant, sinning Christain does far more harm to the church and Christainity than a unbeliever ever could.
The only reason they want restored is because they learned quickly there is no easy money out in real world. So they get repentant real quick. They want back to being praised and followed and access to the big life. They were never godly people and will never be.
Robert Morris and those who have committed similar sins make my blood boil. If he is restored to pastoralship, that church should be disbanded. It's not a church of Christ, it is of the devil.
Reportedly he resigned from the church, although the Elders should have fired. They were afraid they would hurt his feelings if they fired him. 🤬 But he’s enough of a narcissist, I wouldn’t surprised if he showed up preaching somewhere else. He’s only 62.
@@KansasMiss-mf4bj The elders did not follow the scriptures and that should make everyone leave this church. "Leave them; they are blind guides. If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.” Matthew 15:14
*Larry Burkett's book on "Giving and Tithing" drew me closer to God and helped my spirituality. 2020 was a year I literally lived it. I cashed in my life savings and gave it all away. My total giving amounted to 40,000 dollars. Everyone thought I was delusional. Today, 1 receive 85,000 dollars every two months. I have a property in Calabasas, CA, and travel a lot. God has promoted me more than once and opened doors for me to live beyond my dreams. God kept to his promises to and for me*
It is the digital market. That's been the secret to this wealth transfer. A lot of folks in the US and abroad are getting so much from it, God has been good to my household Thank you Jesus
I used to listen to James McDonald regularly on the radio. I genuinely enjoyed his stuff. I was greatly disappointed when his behavior was revealed. Listening to him helped me greatly during that time. Very similar to Ravi Zacharias. Still value his videos and books. I can't say there is much wrong with what he wrote or said. That being said, I agree they should not return to a position of leadership. Consequences for actions.
We have been saying this for the past 44 years regarding Bill Gothard and his permissive attitude of actively allowing and overlooking his brother's abuse, not to mention his own emotional and spiritual abuse of staff. Thank you for making this crystal clear. While he was not a church shepherd per se, he had several million followers.
Surprised to see Mark Driscoll on this list. I remember when he resigned back in 2014 and I read his resignation letter. It was made clear by the elders of his church that he was not disqualified to serve in ministry. From all the articles I've read, leaders at Mars Hill had problems with his personality and leadership style and there was a parting of ways.
@@rg1whiteywins598 So, the elders who God raised up to lead that church, hold him accountable and listened to his sermons every week didn't deem him disqualified from ministry. But, they're wrong and some guy making a UA-cam video is right. And, I guess I missed the verse where foul language (very subjective term) disqualified one from ministry.
So did Martin Luther use foul language. But Mark admits he did somethings not right, but no adultery and some explicit language in the Pulpit about husband and wife relationships, and things like that, but I don't think he ever cursed in the pulpit? I could b wrong.. and I heard him a several occasions in he preaches I am through scripture verse by verse also I think he's charismatic but so is a lot of people..
Indeed. He was also fighting back against a very liberal group of leaders and community in Washington state. Much of his “anger and hostility” was shear human frustration!
@@RivendellFellowship Thank you for your comment. Could you elaborate more to explain how Todd is going beyond scripture? A thought I had later after my comment was "Didn't Peter screw up? He denied Jesus 3 times. Did that make him reproachable? Would Peter be disqualified to be a church leader based on what Todd said?" What are your thoughts?
@EyeToob Yes, according to Todd, Peter is forfeit from leadership. Todd is going beyond scripture by saying forfeit forever. Not in the bible. He is also using early church fathers to back his point. Nice opinions are all they are.
most people including those who CALL themselves Christians don't want truth, they want a pastor who tells them what they want to hear, so they can FEEL GOOD
Which part the churches who teach you can maintain salvation by your own righteous deeds or the ones who promote lifestyles of sin because one is saved by faith through grace so it doesn’t matter how we live in the flesh…? Just curious 😮
I was abused as a child and I had every conviction in my heart for that to stop with me I didn't want no other child suffering because of what I suffered I was not about to divvy out misery because I experienced misery I was about to protect my children and keep misery from them and be a true dad and a true man and a true husband and yes there is Grace when you fall but you do not become a leader after that you follow the leader my friend
I appreciate the comments. Just curious: are we talking about "egregious" sin as disqualifying (what makes a sin reproachable--if that makes sense). Here's where I'm coming from: some pastors don't report monetary gifts for performing weddings/funerals on taxes, they use video clips from movies illegally in sermons (not giving credit or getting permission), fudge on mileage, and some probably gossip. Not trying to be a smart aleck. I guess for me, I see a lot of problems in the pastorate--not just with the big sins and mega church pastor, but across the board.
The sins that would disqualify a person from leadership are usually referencing qualifications for elders and overseers found in Titus 1:5-9 and I Timothy 3. Many of the things you mention would likely not be above reproach. My question would be what do they do when confronted about these things? If I want to be above reproach, I confess the behavior as soon and repent of it. If I act as if it's not a big deal, then it doesn't seem that I care about being above reproach. We all sin, but how we respond to the sin shows a lot
I agree with this and am grateful for faithful preachers and teachers who love the Lord and the church. I followed many of these men and teachings. In regard to my own sin, I have learned that I must follow Christ and not man. A false shepherd can’t “shepherd” if no one is following. A plurality of biblically qualified elders really matters.
Normally, I would agree with Todd on many issues. However, I wholeheartedly disagree with putting Pastor James McDonald and Pastor Mark Driscoll on this list of fallen Pastors. Both, were involved with personality disputes and disagreements. At Mars Hills , they disbanded after Pastor Driscoll left: where's the elders christiandedom in that! Both have gone on to solid ministries and doing the Lord's work. Understand, Our God makes the final call whether a Pastor should be restored to doing The Lord's work not ANY man!! Consider Peter after denying Christ 3 times; Our Lord used him mightily after his fall!! Let's us always demonstrate Our God's grace and mercy to our brothers and sisters!!! We might need it someday!!
What i have seen too many times, in small churches, is a man gets fired from a church (often seems to be over an affair) and just a few months later he's preaching at another small church. Sometimes now married to the woman he cheated with. New church "forgives him" mostly because they're desperate and he's a talented speaker. Rinse and repeat.
It's as if everyone has a problem with letting go and letting fail, and even letting die. If a tree dies, can it be made to live again, or is it cut down so another grows in its place? Should it still be used to swing from and build forts in? I know this question isn't the same as whether or not salt can be made salty again, but think about it - early churches formed from the ground up, isn't that the only way a church grows and thrives; from the ground up in Jesua Chirst? Only Jesus Christ is The Way, The Truth, ans The Life.
Thank you Chris Rosebro for teaching me how to discern between faithful preaching and false preaching. Thank you Todd - you help to set my mind on things above.
As a preacher's kid I say absolutely they cannot be restored! It's bad enough that a preacher falls but even worse sinful board doorknobs restore the man.
Am thankful Jesus saved this sinner who is watching this video. And by the grace of God go I.... I do not fool myself to think that I am above the sins of these in this video even after being saved. Each day is a walk with the Lord and the necessity in putting His desires above mine. Been saved over 40 years and am still working on it each day with His Spirit. Thanks for your videos, Mr. Friel!
I got kicked out of my church for (biblically) confronting our pastoral leadership about the restoration of a pastor that was guilty of sexual promiscuity and under investigation for sexual assault. I asked the same question about "above reproach" and I was removed from fellowship. The cowards never even entertained a biblical approach to restoration or simply a reasonable face-to-face conversation with me.
@@robertyoder5477thanks. It was uncomfortable for sure. Not a great experience but not all that shocking once I found out to full truth (which is too long to post). It’s all just sad that it went the way it did. But at least my kids got to see me attempt to biblically approach the situation.
Absolutely sound and biblical advice. True called men separated for the ministry should be without reproach and if they fall from that high calling then they must of course lament, repent, seek full earnest forgiveness and then be restored to fellowship with believers but NEVER to be allowed to serve in a local church as pastor, elder or deacon. That said, but for the grace of God go I or every believer for that matter . ‘ Oh wretched man that I am, who will delivery me from this body of sin’ ‘There is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus who walk after the spirit rather than the flesh’ 🙏🙏🙏
The Weird Al rendition of that song may be more appropriate, "Another one rides the bus." Quite a few should have served at least some prison time, but it wouldn't jive with the restoration process. 😅
I am a Christian who repented and was restored 3 years ago by the grace of God to fellowship with God and the church body after years of living in unrepentant sexual sin with my ex-girlfriend(who I'm praying for till this very day), and I know full well from Scripture that even though I'm forgiven my great iniquity I am permitantly disqualified from the office of pastor or even elder! Hard but Biblically accurate and good teaching by brother Friel!
I am not above reproach. That's why I'm not a pastor, but an evangelist. I did commit my sins when I was a youth, and not as a Christian, but still, I'm not above reproach. I can however, share with people the redemption of Christ in my life.
Every Christian should aim at being above reproach. I pray that’s where you’re aiming everyday. As Jesus said “to be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect.” It’s amazing to me that there are many saints in the Old Testament that lived holier lives than many today who have the Holy Spirit within. I pray we all realize that truth more and more and walk how we are called to by His grace and power.
@@JesusIsESSENTIAL Yes, I try. But I'm not above reproach. I have sinned. I'm not very righteous, though I try to be. God is my righteousness. Not me. And I don't have any righteousness of my own, and need His rest to do anything good. All good I have, proceeds out of Christ. I'm a poet, but my words are lame. I'm an evangelist, but my arguments are weak. However, it is Christ who makes them strong, and works on the hearer's heart. Not me or my craftiness. Like Moses I stutter--in a way, my speech is not normal. But, through God's act and God's work, my words bring back a harvest. Because of my own, they don't have power, unless God works on the hearer's heart.
@@BKNeifert absolutely. Apart from Christ we can do NOTHING. And it’s only by His righteousness that we are made righteous. We have none of our own. BUT, we are still commanded to be holy and He is. There is the sovereignty of God’s righteousness that covers us but there is our responsibility to walk in that righteousness. Those who have been born again WILL walk in that righteousness because He causes us to do it. “Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.” Ezekiel 36:26-27 Yes, we rest in Him and His righteousness but if we truly have His Spirit within us we WILL walk in righteousness. Faith and love to God always produces obedience to His word. God always connects disobedience with hatred to Him and unbelief. So if our faith is genuine, our love and obedience will be as well.
No Scripture says, "A pastor who sins is disqualified FOR LIFE." Various churches are going to land in different places on this. Let's not make up a rule that is not in Scripture. Of course some sins are so grievous that the fallen pastor must never be restored.
If the churches want more accountability in the pulpit, then there should be more accountability for every church member, which is just as bad of a problem.
The criteria for the pastors he showed is likely, "fallen from being above reproach," in that they needed to resign from their positions for not meeting that Biblical standard. Anyone is able to research each pastor shown in order to see with more detail how they failed that standard. It's not only adultery that disqualifies a pastor. Are you a fan of Driscoll's?
@atoll8423 Exactly! These are the ones whose salvation is seriously suspect. Another thing is, when pastors are lax in their devotion to Christ, they make themselves open to all kinds of sins.
@atoll8423 Exactly! These are the ones whose salvation is seriously suspect. Another thing is, when pastors are lax in their devotion to Christ, they make themselves open to all kinds of sins.
It’s a matter of trust, once broken, it is hard to restore. I see your point about the necessity of strict church discipline for pastors received from the early church teachings. It makes sense in that light to not restore them.
Jim Bakker smoothed the way for his comeback by renouncing prosperity preaching. He never seriously addressed the issue of his abnormal personal conduct and people just forgot about that
SWAGGART WAS NEVER RESTORED BY THE ASSEMBLIES OF GOD. HE DIDN'T WANT TO GIVE UP HIS REVENUE. AT THE TIME OF HIS FALL, HE WAS BRINGING IN BETWEEN $95-$105 MILLION PER YEAR. BAKER WENT TO PRISON BECAUSE OF OVER BOOKING ROOMS AT PTL. HE SURROUNDED HIMSELF WITH A LOT OF UNSCRUPULOUS PEOPLE WHO HAD A NEGATIVE INFLUENCE ON HIM. HE WAS NEVER RESTORED TO MINISTER AGAIN, EVEN THOUGH IS REPENTANCE IS BETWEEN HIM AND GOD.
If one has to be totally blameless, sin free, whatever, then no one is qualified. We have all sinned and fallen short. Dirt will keep coming out on others, Should we judge another because ours hasn't been revealed yet? If God can talk through a jackass, He can speak through anyone. Besides aren't we told to trust no man, or woman. Our trust should be in the Bible, or the Word of God. Want a word from God, go read it.
It doesn’t mean to be sin free but it does mean to live a holy life which is totally possible with the power of the Holy Spirit! If men and women from the Old Testament times could live holy lives even in the midst of a depraved culture (Daniel, Noah, Lot, etc..) how much more so should we today who now have the gift of the Holy Spirit within us to empower us?? Where is our faith today? It’s like we believe the enemies lies that we just can’t live for the Lord in our culture instead of what God’s word so clearly teaches. We must fast and pray and lean upon the Lord and trust in Him and actively put off sin and put on righteousness. To purify ourselves as He is pure. To come out from the world and be separate and touch not the unclean thing! If that means getting rid of tv and things, than do it. “Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. Be miserable and mourn and weep; let your laughter be turned into mourning and your joy to gloom. Humble yourselves in the presence of the Lord, and He will exalt you.” James 4:8-10
@@JesusIsESSENTIAL And how do we put on righteousness? It implies that there is something to put on. Jesus lived a righteous life and ate with sinners, discussed current affairs, and was unafraid of touching the unclean.
@@godswarriors7543 yes, Christ and Christ alone is our righteousness. But that does not negate our responsibility to live holy as He is holy. There is God’s sovereignty and man’s responsibility. If we have truly been born again, we WILL walk according to His word. Our hearts have been changed, His Spirit now leads us. We are no longer our own but have been bought with a price. It’s no longer we who live but Christ in us. We have transferred our ownership over to Christs Lordship. He is Master and is the most gracious and loving Master we could ever imagine. But as we are now His, we obey His instructions (His Word) and that is the righteousness that we “put on”. We aren’t made righteous in Him and then walk contrary to that righteousness. No, we walk according to it because it is who we now are, all praise and glory to Him.
@@RivendellFellowship Look at it carefully with a proper hermeneutic. Either qualified or disqualified. If you’re not beyond reproach which means leading up to (since you’re born again) and during your service then you’re disqualified. Period. You can’t then become beyond reproach again. Just like you can’t be born again- again. You’ll always have a record of reproach. And you’ll never be beyond it. You can still repent and trust Christ and be saved but you’ll always have a record of reproach. And that disqualifies you to shepherd God’s flock. Stop already. Your mindset is complicit in the false teaching problem warned about in every NT book except Philemon. Learn to properly and precisely handle God’s Word.
@jamesmccaughey7754 but you are reading into the reproach is forever. The Scriptures don't say that. No, I am not into a mindset of false teaching. You are the one adding to the scriptures.
@@RivendellFellowship Again you must be beyond reproach before you take office. You can’t fall into reproach and say you’re beyond reproach again after falling into reproach. That is foolish biblically. Do you understand implicit vs explicit? No you clearly do not. Stop looking for a way to embrace sin. That is the practice of sin by definition and places you in reproach. Repent. Your
I am revisiting this video the day after the news of Steve Lawson’s sin. Praying for him, his family and TBC Dallas. Also praying that his removal from pastoral ministry remains permanent according to biblical guidelines and no effort is made by him or anyone else toward “restoration”.
Well said Todd. More accountability and above reproach. It is hypocritical for the church. I dont like or appreciate certain TV pastors that may publicly repent, but they refuse to step down for any length of time and continue preaching. Im understanding sinning pastors teach false doctrine. I think Paul said this...
What about Mark Driscoll? He teaches biblically sound doctrine and I still listen to him. Is it possible that this could be a stumbling block? I don’t know how much I agree with you on this. I can see pretty much everyone else on the list but him.
The fact that you agree with Driscoll's theology does not mean he teaches sound doctrine. The very fact that he's practicing false doctrine means his theology is polluted. Everybody says their fav pastor preaches sound doctrine, but it's only because they won't truly scrutinize what they're preaching or practicing.
If you watch the video its clear the point Todd is making. Its nothing to do with the doctrine they are teaching, they can be excellent preachers. But the type of sin they commit that disqualifies them then eliminates the decision of restoring them to the role of pastor as a prudent one. Look at the sin Mark committed, he should be sitting under the leadership of others. Non-christians will look at the church and will rightfully laugh and mock when they see we aren't taking sin seriously and we restore these men to be pastors again
While Driscoll’s sermons tend to be something akin to stand-up Christian comedy, I don’t buy the “kind of sin” argument. Driscoll is still a powerful force for introducing many to Christianity.
@@howardgrominger296how much of his sermons have you watched? In the last two months, I have watched around 20 hours worth of his sermons, mostly from the last two years. He tells jokes, but by no means would I say his sermons are stand up comedy. Humor is a small portions of his sermons. He is very convicting and is blatant about sin and denying one’s flesh and Worshiping God. I have performed stand up comedy on an amateur level so that is why that comparison is a meaningful one for me. Going back to the original commenter and this video, I think the point is that they are not fit to lead due to their behaviors, even if their sermons are righteous. Being a pastor is also about mentoring, caring for, and guiding members of the church. Those behaviors would make one unsuited to complete the full interpersonal role even if you can deliver righteous sermons. Do I agree with not being able to be restored? I don’t. I think if you hold yourself and have others hold you accountable, you can continue being a pastor. I don’t know for sure though. Just my opinion based on my understanding of grace and my personal experience seeing growth in people throughout their lives.
Give greater thought to conscience and consequences -Grieving the lord that redeems me. Dragging his sacred name into the mud. Looking at Jesus in the face giving account for my actions.
He repeatedly threatened his elder board when confronted with taking money to promote his book. He used church funds for this. He was abusive and said that he would "destroy" some of them. He also referred to women as " homes for penis's." Vulgarity and spiritual abuse absolutely disqualifies someone from the office of pastor.
What pastoral trait does he exhibit? There is a difference between someone who gets behind the pulpit and someone who is a pastor. His teachings are very shallow, and he needs to undergo church discipline for his actions at Mars Hill.
That's a good argument. Does the man have actions and behaviors that align with God's will, shepherding the people, and teaching the word? "He who knows what is right and does not do it, for him it is sin." James 4:17. If we hold everything about behaviors, actions, and intentions in absolutes, no man would be qualified for leadership over the church. In what way do we extend grace to our leadership that accepts them as a sinner (James 4:17) and qualifies them as above reproach (1 Timothy 3)? Absolutes are a dangerous frame of mind.
Agreed. And one of the absolutes of humanity is that we all fall short. Redemption is the beautiful part of grace that the church seems to have the hardest time with but is one of the main themes of the bible. Good to keep people accountable while still emphasizing grace and redemption. Also i believe redemption is possible whether the fall happens before or after coming to Christ. Just one of the thoughts i have when we talk about ‘disqualification’. Is anyone truly qualified? I don’t know. Just my thoughts. Cheers!
Thing is, Paul says that _God_ appoints the ministers in His Church, so He has better insight when it comes to who is or isn't qualified than anybody else. The ministers in traditional Christianity are where they are because they either gave themselves those positions or somebody voted on it. Usually, it's because the person installed themselves into those positions. The fact that traditional Christianity has these problems is proof that its churches aren't led by God.
What does it mean to be above reproach? Strong's g423 - Lexical: ἀνεπίληπτος - Transliteration: anepilémptos - Part of Speech: Adjective - Phonetic Spelling: an-ep-eel'-ape-tos - Definition: irreproachable, never caught doing wrong. - Origin: From a (as a negative particle) and a derivative of epilambanomai; not arrested, i.e. (by implication) inculpable. - Usage: blameless, unrebukeable. - Translated as (count): above reproach (3).
I have a problem with this message. It almost infers that a pastor must be perfect, which is just not reality. No one is perfect. Then the question would have to be, what sins are bad enough to remove a pastor? Take Mark Driscoll, since he was included in the clip, as an example. Yes, Mark was, and is, very passionate, and that came across as angry at times. Truthfully, I have seen some of his angry outbursts and thought they were appropriate given the circumstances. Do I always agree with Mark Driscoll, no. But I don't agree with Voddie Bochum, Paul Washer, or any other pastor on all issues. Blatant sins, like adultery, of course should carry the consequence of pastoral removal, but we need to be careful how far we extend this policy toward pastors in sin, otherwise we may not have any pastors remaining.
Thought the same. And in a video where he calls out a modern pastor for being angry, he holds up Luther and Calvin. The irony there is hilarious! (Like the video overall, just agreeing with your comment and pointing out a few issues)
@@jonathankoch2803 Thank you for asking. Not really, but I am working on a close relationship with God and Jesus. I will probably never trust preachers.
Pastors who control the men under and around them with money or power and prestige also control their mouths… The traditional system is set up to fail unless each man walks circumspectly in their own mind and heart…
2 Timothy 3-5 [AVOID THESE PEOPLE] "Understand that the last days will be dangerous times. 2 People will be selfish and love money. They will be the kind of people who brag and who are proud. They will slander others, and they will be disobedient to their parents. They will be ungrateful, unholy, 3 unloving, contrary, and critical. They will be without self-control and brutal, and they won’t love what is good. 4 They will be people who are disloyal, reckless, and conceited. They will love pleasure instead of loving God. 5 They will look like they are religious but deny God’s power. Avoid people like this".
Peter was restored to ministry, so you’re wrong about that Peter denied Jesus three times, after Jesus said that anyone who denies him would also be denied to the father, but Jesus restored him to ministry leadership completely. How many other examples of ministers being restored can I find with just a little Bible study? What about Jonah being restored after his disobedience? What about David being restored to leadership after his disobedience? Are there more?
I like Mark Driscoll. He preaches the Bible. He's also a human. Anger issues? Pride issues? Join the club. He's real. He's relatable. Sorry Todd this isn't the 1600's anymore. God never changes. People do. Mark loves people and preaches the Word. If and when he says something screwy, I'll be done. It's been months and all I get is wonderful preaching of the Word and funny jokes about our culture and Government.
I agree, Mark Driscoll teaches the bible. And of all the wrongs committed by church leaders, struggling with anger is not all that disqualifying to me. If he is too mean and angry, go to/watch a different church/pastor. His bible teaching is really something special. God uses imperfect people. While he fixes them, they change the lives of others. It's a common theme throughout the bible. Peter followed, believed, and taught about Jesus, then denied him 3 times and was restored to continue Christ's ministry. This video topic seems out of touch. You might have a bunch of historical church figures that agree with this video's premise, but there were many historical church figures that also agreed with the crusades. I don't think either are in line with what Jesus said. I don't know about the other pastors and their wrongdoings, but Mark Driscoll is doing great, actually teaching the bible, and bringing millions of people to Jesus.
Y’all must not have listened to the series the fall of mars hill (his church that fell apart in Washington) or done any research on him. He has said absolutely DISGUSTING things about women that no person, Christian, and especially pastor should have said. He is not qualified just because you have itching ears and enjoy what he says now that he is a pastor somewhere else.
@_shaylamarr who made you judge and jury? Is saying a mean thing worse than denying Jesus 3 times? Peter continued his work. Is saying a mean thing worse than murder and adultery? King David kept his leadership position. Why do you think you are the authority? Everyone has a past, there is redemption in the bible. Pretty sure Jesus didn't let people's sins define them. Mark is a great bible teacher of our time. Even if he said a mean thing to someone in his past and he is not saying terrible things in his preaching so he is not instilling it in his listeners. If this grudge you've been carrying for a decade gets too heavy, there is this guy named Jesus who says you don't have to carry it anymore you can let it go.
@@ap8057 well, as video talked about there is a difference in rejoining the body and rejoining leadership. Of course there’s grace and forgiveness for him as a Christian but that doesn’t mean he’s qualified to be a leader again (of which he never publicly acknowledged or apologized for this, so he especially shouldnt publicly be a leader). I don’t have a grudge, just pointing out truth that he’s not above reproach. It’s your opinion that he’s a great Bible teacher. And if anything you’re the one that’s coming across super aggressive 😵💫 hope you find some peace, joy, love, patience, goodness, gentleness, and self control.
When I stumbled into the UMC after my encounter with Christ, the pastor at that church counseled me. I had been mixed up with tarot cards and all the Buddhist crap that's popular now. He was a God given help to me and put me on a straight path. And he had been unfaithful to his first wife and everyone knew about it. If he'd been given the gate I don't know where I'd have ended up. He got me into the Disciple classes. Those were life changing. Sometimes the wounded are the best healers.
I agree to a degree. Certian things such as abuse of power and adultary are automatic disqualifications, but this doesn't mean they can't be restored years down the road through repentance. Or else we all would have disqualified Peter immediately and we wouldn't be talking about this today.
These sociopaths can't stand being out of the limelight...the money & power are very nice too. They hold these over holding on to God. Grace & mercy are their game & they play people well. They should fade into the gray & let someone else lead.
He was found to be quick tempered and was investigated by our church elders. There was a disciplinary and restoration plan in place but he decided to resign as it was about to take effect. This is actually documented with transcripts of the meeting with Mark online. Kinda hard to find but they’re present as you look at the investigated work that Warren Throckmorton was doing. The thing that makes this confusing for the public is that it’s not as blatant as adultery. You can beat people down with your words in a way that leave no visible bruises.
Was thinking the same thing. Pastors are still human and will make mistakes. Every single person in the bible other than Jesus made mistakes on their service and walk with God. That of course doesn’t mean there isn’t consequences for our actions.
@@valeriegoldstein3483 I guess the contrasts in the first two Kings of Israel would be a good example. One had a heart from himself and one for God. King David after committing adultery and murder being punished by the taking of their baby was sorry and wept before God. King Saul after being caught not following Gods commandment to wipe out all the Amalekites went to worship God. God got rid of one but not the other. One was only doing it for show and didn't have a personal relationship with God, the other knew God and deeply loved him.
It was a difference of opinion between apostles and it was worked out with Paul's facing it and Peter's agreement. Peter had not abused a person in his flock, he had not molested a child or a woman, he had not stolen church donations or committed fraud of any kind. He had not had an adulterous affair outside of his marriage. Get the point?
I simply refuse to believe that any man is above reproach in todays day and age. He would have to live like a monk in order to avoid all the temptations that are out there.
When I was a new Christian I loved listening to James MacDonald, David Moore, and Andy Stanley. Batting a thousand here. Somehow God protected my mind and led me to John MacArthur, RC Sproul, Spurgeon, Washer, Baucham, and yes, even Friel. What a difference biblical teachers can make.
Study what Martin Luther said."Scripture ONLY Scripture." God's word is the only thing you need. All these books to read are not the Bible. The authors put their own twist on Scripture.
The only one I liked was Billy Graham. He only talked about Jesus Christ. The Scripture is Jesus Christ. The Apostles only preached Jesus Christ.
There are men that call themselves Apostles. There were only 12 including Paul.
These nut jobs today will only get you confused.
John MacArthur's Doctrine is unbiblical. He speaks about gifts of the spirit such as healing, speaking in tongues and prophecy as a thing of the past. But the Bible states this specifically in 1 corinthians 13: 8-10 "Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. " The perfect is Jesus Christ, God made man, who hasn't arrived for the second time yet. So the partial is still not done away. This is why you need to study the Word. "My people perish for lack of knowledge...." Hosea 4:6. Don't Let the theology of man sway you because their Theatrics, Education and/or Rhetoric sound good. Stay Vigilant and Maranatha!
Look up perfect in Greek, means complete not perfection as we use it. Also look up when that which is perfect “shall come” ek mortentos “ which means bit by bit” what did we receive that is complete but by bit?
Ps I’m saying all this off memory right now
@@cole5773 I'm glad you said this. Not perfection but complete. Who is the only one who has been completed into perfection of the body? Jesus as he proved it when he went through walls after the resurrection. What did we receive that is complete bit by bit? Our perfect bodies. When did we receive our perfect bodies? When we started hoping in what was announced in faith. "Bit by bit" means there are things that have to happen before "completion" aka Jesus, comes back. That there's a schedule for the end so that no one deceives us. He literally warns us when the disciples ask him about it in Matthew 24:3
I had the same experience, when I was new Christian I was introduced to Joyce Meyer, and I thought why is she like that with some arrogance , Charles Capp , I forgot the other name from name it claim it teachings and Benny Himm too , I thank God that He removed me from those teaching and was so grateful that led to RC Sproul , Voddie Buckham , Paul Washer and most of the Ligonier ministry
"Above reproach" is an absolute Biblical must, that must never be disgarded.
Yeah. And “above reproach” doesn’t mean “you don’t get to criticize me” like so many of these guys think.
I agree, but there's likely lots of disagreement over what this precisely means/how it is precisely defined.
It draws a line, for sure. But where that line exists is going to have some degree of variance depending on who you ask. That isn't to say it's a subjective truth by any means, but it is to say that there is at best a moderate degree of difficulty in coming to a consensus or perfect understanding... even among brothers who are seriously minded and seeking the truth on the matter. Just like nearly every other doctrine where real Christians are prayerfully looking at the same information in the same book asking their same God to guide them into truth, yet still coming to quite drastically different conclusions.
It's sounds more like the Demorats.
@@gray_rain some of the line could probably drawn at the other qualifying factor of having "a good standing in the community". Even the outside world see these pastors as shameful. But at the end of the day a "lead pastor" needs to be on the same level as any other elder. 99% of the time these lead pastors override the wisdom of the other elders. when that happens run.
Just needs to be clarified…
I absolutely agree with you, they can be restored to being a member of the body but never in the place of leadership again.
Robert morris sin happened 35 years ago ago! We all better learn to extend the same grace and mercy that God gave the entire world! We will be judged by the same measure! We use
James 2:13
“For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.”
Galatians 6:1-8
English Standard Version
Bear One Another's Burdens
6 Brothers,[a] if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. 2 Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. 3 For if anyone thinks he is something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself. 4 But let each one test his own work, and then his reason to boast will be in himself alone and not in his neighbor. 5 For each will have to bear his own load.
6 Let the one who is taught the word share all good things with the one who teaches. 7 Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. 8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
@Packhorse-bh8qn 1 Corinthians 5:5 deals with the destruction of a person's body. However, I was referring to the body of the local denomination and not the body of Christ.
Agree, however the fact they are being restored contrary to the teachings of the early church just proves we are in the last days, where false prophets, and teachers with proliferate. Jesus did say end time events would get worse, and many will fall away from the Truth before His coming, so in a way these false pastors serve a purpose as proof and a warning to those who are waiting and watching for Jesus return. He is coming very soon, in this generation.
@@nschlaak most of us know this. Some people have to be specific or are simply picky. What you said and intended is obvious.
@@nschlaak
About this „never”:
Does it come from Scripture - or maybe cause of lack of trust for this person… or maybe a pragmatic discipline?
This is primarily a MEGA pastor syndrome. We put them back in office because we forget that a growing church does not necessarily mean that God's church is growing.
Nope, those are just the ones we hear about.
I agree with the previous person commenting. I've seen this type of thing play out in smaller/local churches as I don't attend the "mega-church" variety as well. I immediately lose interest when pastors do not utilize Scripture, and when they promote unbiblical views on tithing, etc. Sexual sin is bad, but these other sins by those in the ministry are almost as bad.
I believe the rampant abuse is worse in smaller assemblies. Egotistical leaders who refuse to have deacons because they are afraid that they will vote out a bad pastor. It’s easy for an embittered and disgruntled person to get into ministry and then abuse the flock in order to vent personal rage and frustration. I have witnessed this problem many times, and it is a common issue in the fundamentalist churches. These sorts of men will never submit to elder oversight. It’s also unbiblical. 🙏🏼
Very wise observation!
@Packhorse-bh8qn
Pastors are called Elders in my church. We call them pastors also. They do exactly what scripture says for Elders to do. Pastor is just a word. Don’t get hung up on it.
The thing I most look forward to in Heaven is the absence of temptation and sin. The sins I have committed while claiming to be a Christian have caused me to question my salvation. Men, I cannot urge you strongly enough. PLEASE avoid pornography.
Amen. You, all of you who may read this: you can't win on your own but only by the power of God. It is good to hate the sin, but you must also replace it with something you love. You love Jesus, you love your wife, or the hope for a wife someday, you love your family, and for the sake if these you fight your temptation. Signed a freeman
Where was Lucifer again before falling?
@@narindraramanankasaina2545what’s your point
We're protected from temptation when in Christ, we don't need to wait for heaven.
@@narindraramanankasaina2545what verse was that from?
That restoration ministry is nothing but a cover to enable each other
Precisely! 👌
And money laundering too
Exactly. This is why we are warned about wolves in sheep's clothing. This very thing. Wolves don't become sheep and tares don't become wheat. Enough is enough.
Robert Morris supposedly went through 2 years of restoration with counseling and attending the freedom ministry. Really, it was all of one month then he joined James Robison’s ministry. 2 years after being found molesting a minor, he was made an Elder of Shady Grove church in Texas. Shame on the Shady Grove Leadership! 🤬. This is all in His book.
It is like what the catholic church shifting priests from church to church.
Restored to the church body, NOT the pulpit. 100% agree. That is biblical.
A fall begins when a leader doesn’t have an accountability group, and lives a transparent life. I worked for a pastor for 16 years until I had to quit to take care of an elderly parent. His wife and his assistant had 100% access to his iCloud calendar. He always went to lunch with a group of people, not just one person. He was DAILY in the Word, and never put himself in potential compromising situations. 25 years later, he’s still implementing these practices and the Lord has blessed him with a healthy growing church. Obedience brings blessing.
The main reason this Pastor restoration issue has become prevalent, I believe, is because these pastors cannot divorce their identity from their pastoral role. Their identity is not in Christ. It is in being a pastor. And the fact that they were celebrities also feeds into the identity. So they really have no idea what to do without that identity.
BINGO!
Its the only way they know how to make money.
Agreed 💯!
Ditto👍
Yes, they have no skill whatsoever. They are used by Satan to lead people astray and cause people to blaspheme the Name of God. But people love power and worship anyone other than God who has some. I know James MacDonalds sons also got into being pastors. They saw how rich it made their dad.
Amen!!! Totally agree!!! Disqualified pastors disqualify themselves as pastors.
Amen.
So you would have disqualified Peter.
@@MrWoody6663 Where was that said or implied?
The problem is these men are so eager to step back into leadership...why not just do an honest days work framing houses, running electrical wire or selling cars? They can simply serve by being a serving part of their local congregations without teaching?
Yep.
And it's because they care more about themselves and their name than they do the name and glory of Christ
I might still be wary of a fallen pastor selling cars
Because they are lazy at the core of it! They want an easy job with a lot of benefits!!!!
Living like the common man does nothing for their ego. That's why they become preachers in the 1 place. Wowing people with great swelling words gives them a buzz that doing humble work like carpentry doesnt.
@@mikemuncy7464These hirelings may think that a pastoral position is easy, or they may want to make it easy, but it is not a cushy position. Preaching funerals, counseling the troubled, dealing with heresy, and having demonic sights set on your position is daunting. Pastors who actually care about their flock and genuinely honor God often work themselves to death. Burnout in ministry is a serious problem. When I was in Bible college we looked at the statistics and I was shocked at how bad it is in the US! 🙏🏼
These so called pastors have crossed a line, they have blatantly sinned against God with no form of repentance to God, if there was true repentance, they would not be standing behind a pulpit.
Huh? What does being brehind the pulpit again have to do with repentance??? Repentance is a change of mind
Robert morris sin happened 35 years ago ago! We best offer the Same grace and mercy God have all!
James 2:13
“For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.”
Galatians 6:1-8
English Standard Version
Bear One Another's Burdens
6 Brothers,[a] if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. 2 Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. 3 For if anyone thinks he is something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself. 4 But let each one test his own work, and then his reason to boast will be in himself alone and not in his neighbor. 5 For each will have to bear his own load.
6 Let the one who is taught the word share all good things with the one who teaches. 7 Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. 8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
Yeah, Mark Driscoll is one of the biggest offender
@@kevinburke1325 what did he do specifically that was so agregious I can only find quite vague accusations about him. I like watching his sermons so would be interested in knowing.
@user-tq3ud9zi7w if you like his sermons where he attacks men and defends wahmen and feminists, then that's part of the problem right there.
@@WillPower46 he literally buried someone behind Mars Hill after killing them.
I watched an interview as Carl Lentz and his wife discussed what happened when he committed adultery.
It was all upbeat and lessons learned, his wife had forgiven him and now they’re using this experience to “help” others. Absolutely shocking.
Not even a hint of godly sorrow at having grieved a holy God.
Con artist!!
“However, because by this deed you have given great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme…” 2 Sam 12:14
I wish they would focus on restoring & compensating their victims. The victum shaming that takes place in the church is evil & vile.
The victims are scared for life. Yes we’re new creations when we become Christians but the memories are there always and we bring every thought captive in obedience to Christ empowered by the Holy Spirit
Amen!
God’s word is living and active, changes how we think so we think God’s thoughts after Him growing in Christlikeness for that is our desire.
@@charmainehopkins2372 I’m not sure I would agree in every case. Often times the other person involved knows full well that what they are doing is equally sinful yet they continue on in their sin. While it’s sad that they are led astray by a shepherd the truth is that you would be hard pressed to say that they didn’t in most cases, participate willingly.
@mrtoadslove children can not give consent. It seems many followers shepherds in a cult like situation, and are easily manipulated.
@@charmainehopkins2372 I wasn’t referring to children which is why I said in many cases.
About 16 years ago, a pastor that had been ousted, was begged to come back to his pulpit. He had been in an adulterous relationship with the school principal. The board pleaded for his return because the membership had gone from 500+/- to 50 or so in his 10 year absence and they couldn’t keep up the payment on the building they built just before his dismissal. Upon his return, I attended there for a few months as I was returning to Jesus after my own wayward stint. I wasn’t prepared for the pride, arrogance and even calling people out from the pulpit for things he didn’t like! One huge impassioned plea later, the Lord led me to a different church. I no longer live in the area and have no idea if he’s still preaching, but one thing; his return really raised attendance!
@@jesusbeloved3953 WOW 😢 That's not good at all. To be more concerned with çrowd levels and money than righteousness of the leader, Jesus doesn't like that👎
Almost sounds and looks like the people where following the pastor and not Christ.
God likes to teach discernment!
@@kevinholst9231 Exactly! But people are closing their ears to what He is trying to tell them.
@@robindear5043 I totally agree with what you're saying. So many I imagine only want what makes them feel good or is in agreement with how they think NOT what the scriptures teach. I'm in no way perfect as a Christian. But when Christ said "You'll know them by there fruit". It is so true. Take Care!!
It's like capital punishment. NO one wants to (well, no Christians should 'want' to) implement capital punishment OR Church discipline. But it is there to keep law and order, and the PURITY of the Bride of Christ.
The Bible instructs that there are times when capital punishment is required.
Read the Book.
@@jeepstergal12 I believe you misunderstood me. I am agreeing that c.p. IS Biblical.
I agree with you how church discipline is needed to keep law and order in the church. Church discipline is needed to protect the integrity of the church and to protect God's word. Everyone sins, and no one is perfect, but there are certain kinds of sins, infractions, etc that damage a person's role model status in regards to being a pastor, youth minister, elder, deacon, Sunday School teacher, etc. When someone's role model status is compromised in regards to being in a leadership position in a church, they need to be held accountable and removed from that position.
There are certain kinds of infractions, sins, etc that warrant never being a pastor ever again. If a pastor molests a child, rapes someone, has sex with an underage teenage girl, etc, they should never work as a pastor ever again for the remainder of their life.
@@kathyhart2309yeah you weren't very clear
@@jeepstergal12
Wrong.
Capital punishment (the death penalty) "may have been" appropriate for Old Testament Jews (before Christ), but it's definitely not appropriate for New Testament Christians to practice.
Read Romans 12.
Todd has an amazing way of discussing a tough subject without being hateful and insulting. He speaks the truth clearly, with passion. 👍
Not in this case. He adds to scripture and goes outside the bible to make his weak argument.
I agree that Todd is a master communicator but he does not know how to handle the Word of God. If you know the real thing, the counterfeit is painfully obvious.
Misses the mark by miles! Talks dribble and tarradiddle !
ego
Interesting how all replies here didn't really address the OP's point, but dismiss the content of the video or Todd homself while giving no basis or justification for that, like they just needed an excuse to let their mouth to male gn someone they don't like
You are right on, Todd. I've been watching this "restoration" trend for years and it's not good. I'm all for bringing fallen pastors back into the fold, but not in any leadership role whatsoever. The Church in America is under God's judgement right now because of things like this. If we ever expect to see God's blessing on the Church and the nation, we need to get back to Biblically grounded qualifications of leadership.
What do you mean by "the church?"
100% Correct ... never never should they lead again!!!!
Amen, that's very true. We HAVE TO hold fast to Scripture!
But Todd has gone beyond holding fast to scripture into holding fast to his and early church father's opinions.
Like Romans 11:29
@@Yelladog78
Romans 11:29 relates to 11:28. The word "For" in 11:29 is the link which makes that clear.
Context matters!
@@m-channel2350p-a I am well aware context matters lol
It would help if we stopped referring to preachers as pastors. Preachers can be pastors and pastors can be preachers, but they are not automatically the same thing.
What’s the difference?
@@failingdisciple938 A pastor (the same thing as an elder) is one of a group of spiritual overseers in a church, and he must meet the qualifications found in 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1. Pastor means shepherd. His main job is to take care of the flock (the church), not to preach (but of course he can preach, like I said, and he must be able to teach).
A preacher‘s job is to educate, not to oversee the church. And they are not subject to the same qualifications as pastors.
@@rh9626 good answer. Our church has designate roles, though we do call all of them a "pastor" of some kind.
1) Lead Pastor - main preacher, teacher and spiritual care.
2) Associate pastor - organizes small group sessions (aka Bible Study & Fellowship groups) and church wide annual events like VBS and church camp.
3) Teaching pastor - supports the lead pastor in the preaching role. This is a part-time position.
4) Worship pastor - rehearses the musical teams and sings/play with us.
5) Youth pastor - pastors kids grades 6 thru high school.
6) Children's pastor - pastors kids age birth thru 5th grade.
I get what you're saying that not every pastor is a preacher, and some of our pastors fit that description. In our church only our Lead, Teaching, and occasionally Youth pastors preach to the whole congregation.
@@sidwhiting665 I believe this is why there are some traditions that hold to the only listed offices in scripture, elder and deacon. The elder would be a pastoral role, so sometimes it would be referred as a shepherd-elder. Then there are those who have different gifts and they minister to the church with those gifts, teachers, children's lessons, nursery, worship music.... but there are only two offices, and no titles or honorary descriptors. Even pastor as a title is shunned in our church.
Preaching is an activity, not a profession or office. It's something any person could do
Pastor is a position, an overseer.
I’m so over these Pastors being restored to preaching and the church putting them on a pedestal! How is that holding accountability or consequences for their appalling behaviour. It’s never usually a one off either.
Love your channel Todd. 🙏
Our ex pastor committed adultery on his wife while we were there. It was found out and the church destroyed the woman and lifted up the pastor! He never left the pulpit and is still there today! We left and were abused for leaving!!! It still to this day saddens me as he is still the CEO … I mean pastor of the church
This happened at one of the churches we went to when I was growing up. It turned my mom off from going to church and we never went back to church at all after that.
Having 1 person over the church is never a good idea, the biblical church had multiple leaders called elders/overseers since Christ is head over the church and the safeguard is unity in Christ along with the qualifications. If the head of the church isn’t Jesus why be a part of it? If there’s 1 guy clearly on top directing where’s the safeguard? It’s that guy which isn’t a very strong safeguard.
At a former church we attended the youth pastor was involved with one of the young girls in youth group. When it was find out he wws removed. This man a few years later now is a pastor at a church and his wife also is a "pastor" at this church. This was many years ago but I will say I wouldn't want him near my daughters and this was close to thirty years ago.
One of the stand out moments for me in the documentary "The secrets of Hillsong", was when Carl Lentz had left the ministry and was in "normal" work focusing on rebuilding trust with his family. When I heard he'd been restored and was now a pastor again I just sighed... :( And then when I suggest these pastors should not be restored into ministry, I get accused of being graceless.
Mark never disqualified himself.
Once a Pastor loses the trust of his congregation, he should absolutely be stripped of all Pastoral, and official Church positions.
Pastors are rightfully held to a much higher standard by God.
The responsibilities of a Pastor are very important, and serious trespasses are opportunities for attacks from the secular world as they look for any reason to discredit the entire Church.
The Catholic Church is seriously tainted by pedophiles in the ranks.
Worse yet, is offenders are protected, and moved around.
Perfect example with the failure of RCC to demand full accountability. Problem is that just allows past offenders to re-offend. Leadership must have trust, and trust is HARD to regain once it has been lost. Seems like Protestant mega churches are way too lenient when it comes to this "restoration" business. Restore the sinner, yes! But do not restore to the office!
@@sidwhiting665 , AMEN, and well said.
I appreciate this video and the quotes that support the biblically-based history of not restoring leaders who have sinned.
But the bible doesn't say you can't restore a once fallen pastor. Todd reaches beyond the scriptures on this one. Also, what the early church father's say on this is opinion, not scripture. Nothing in the bible says removal is for life.
“For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;”
2 Timothy 3:2-4
Your entry seems to be the most scriptural and complete reason to deny one who has gone from the Lord , to return to public post. Yet we aren’t to judge . The so called pastor is held to an even higher standard than we and the Lord will indeed deal with it. Amen
@@marcisaacs9407 this is what the Pharisees said when the Lord spoke to them concerning their hypocrisy
The fruit is what speaks for any of us
The emphasis must be on the WINE not wineskins
Their hearts weren't after God, their hearts were always after fame and money.
Don’t forget power, influence, and prestige. Low self esteem persons often seek positions that elevate themselves from their past. The “I am going to show everyone who I really am. They never understood my full potential.” mentality. Sadly, the ministry is packed with unqualified, ungifted, and self-called pastors. As bad as the problem is stateside, it’s much worse abroad. They are far from oversight and many write bogus reports on their ministries to supporting churches. I have witnessed this firsthand.🙏🏼
I think you are judgemental. You don't know what "their hearts were always after." You don't know even what one fallen pastor was after.
@@drjcw if this person is judgmental, then perhaps it is because Jesus says, "Do not judge only according to appearances, but judge with righteous judgment." - John 7:24
A good rule of thumb I've heard used for this is, "If the pastor lives in the nicest house and drives the nicest cars in the church, odds are he's in it for the money." We are called to be discerning and given gifts to do so. Do not fail to use them due to the old misused of "Judge not," which is all too common.
@sidwhiting665 Sid, all the judgements are by appearance, every single one. We haven't heard the other side. And if my pastor drives a nice car and has a nice house, great for him. It's none of my business. It's none of my business what you drive, and I won't judge you if I see you.
@@drjcw The Bible clearly warns of people like this. Matthew 7:15-16
[15] “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. [16] You will recognize them by their fruits.
Government officials should have to be beyond reproach too. Fully agree that these pastors should step down especially today!
Thank you. Someone finally grts it and says it out loud!!!!!!!! A unrepentant, sinning Christain does far more harm to the church and Christainity than a unbeliever ever could.
The only reason they want restored is because they learned quickly there is no easy money out in real world. So they get repentant real quick. They want back to being praised and followed and access to the big life. They were never godly people and will never be.
Mmhmm they miss the lifestyle the big money brought.
Robert Morris and those who have committed similar sins make my blood boil.
If he is restored to pastoralship, that church should be disbanded. It's not a church of Christ, it is of the devil.
The church should be disbanded nonetheless
This!
Reportedly he resigned from the church, although the Elders should have fired. They were afraid they would hurt his feelings if they fired him. 🤬
But he’s enough of a narcissist, I wouldn’t surprised if he showed up preaching somewhere else. He’s only 62.
@@KansasMiss-mf4bj The elders did not follow the scriptures and that should make everyone leave this church. "Leave them; they are blind guides. If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.” Matthew 15:14
*Larry Burkett's book on "Giving and Tithing" drew me closer to God and helped my spirituality. 2020 was a year I literally lived it. I cashed in my life savings and gave it all away. My total giving amounted to 40,000 dollars. Everyone thought I was delusional. Today, 1 receive 85,000 dollars every two months. I have a property in Calabasas, CA, and travel a lot. God has promoted me more than once and opened doors for me to live beyond my dreams. God kept to his promises to and for me*
There's wonder working power in following Kingdom principles on giving and tithing. Hallelujah!
But then, how do you get all that in that period of time? What is it you do please, mind sharing?
It is the digital market. That's been the secret to this wealth transfer. A lot of folks in the US and abroad are getting so much from it, God has been good to my household Thank you Jesus
Big thanks to Ms. Chisty Fiore❤️✨💯May God bless Christy Fiore services,she have changed thousands of lives globally
How can I start this digital market, any guidelines and how can I reach out to her?
I used to listen to James McDonald regularly on the radio. I genuinely enjoyed his stuff. I was greatly disappointed when his behavior was revealed. Listening to him helped me greatly during that time. Very similar to Ravi Zacharias. Still value his videos and books. I can't say there is much wrong with what he wrote or said. That being said, I agree they should not return to a position of leadership. Consequences for actions.
James was my payor for 8 years before I left. I saw the writing on the wall
@@chicagogalsame here. My wife worked for the church and saw many things that did not glorify the Lord
Let them go work at Walmart. I do not want to hear anything they have to say anymore
We have been saying this for the past 44 years regarding Bill Gothard and his permissive attitude of actively allowing and overlooking his brother's abuse, not to mention his own emotional and spiritual abuse of staff. Thank you for making this crystal clear. While he was not a church shepherd per se, he had several million followers.
Yes! Allowing and overlooking is to become complicit.
Yet disallowing true repentance and restoration falls short of gospel hope and power.
Surprised to see Mark Driscoll on this list. I remember when he resigned back in 2014 and I read his resignation letter. It was made clear by the elders of his church that he was not disqualified to serve in ministry. From all the articles I've read, leaders at Mars Hill had problems with his personality and leadership style and there was a parting of ways.
Didn't this video just say he used foul language from the pulpit ? Foul language is not good for a pastor.
@@rg1whiteywins598 So, the elders who God raised up to lead that church, hold him accountable and listened to his sermons every week didn't deem him disqualified from ministry. But, they're wrong and some guy making a UA-cam video is right. And, I guess I missed the verse where foul language (very subjective term) disqualified one from ministry.
So did Martin Luther use foul language. But Mark admits he did somethings not right, but no adultery and some explicit language in the Pulpit about husband and wife relationships, and things like that, but I don't think he ever cursed in the pulpit? I could b wrong.. and I heard him a several occasions in he preaches I am through scripture verse by verse also I think he's charismatic but so is a lot of people..
Peter is mentioned as foul-mouthed in the Bible and chosen to lead the church. Im puzzled my Driscoll’s inclusion in this
Indeed. He was also fighting back against a very liberal group of leaders and community in Washington state. Much of his “anger and hostility” was shear human frustration!
Thank you for making this video. I've never heard this message before, but it is exactly what every Christian needs to know.
But Todd is going beyond scripture and making scripture say something it doesn't say.
@@RivendellFellowship Thank you for your comment. Could you elaborate more to explain how Todd is going beyond scripture?
A thought I had later after my comment was "Didn't Peter screw up? He denied Jesus 3 times. Did that make him reproachable? Would Peter be disqualified to be a church leader based on what Todd said?"
What are your thoughts?
@EyeToob Yes, according to Todd, Peter is forfeit from leadership. Todd is going beyond scripture by saying forfeit forever. Not in the bible. He is also using early church fathers to back his point. Nice opinions are all they are.
I agree 100%. The folks love the man more than The Word.
most people including those who CALL themselves Christians don't want truth, they want a pastor who tells them what they want to hear, so they can FEEL GOOD
Which part the churches who teach you can maintain salvation by your own righteous deeds or the ones who promote lifestyles of sin because one is saved by faith through grace so it doesn’t matter how we live in the flesh…? Just curious 😮
I was abused as a child and I had every conviction in my heart for that to stop with me I didn't want no other child suffering because of what I suffered I was not about to divvy out misery because I experienced misery I was about to protect my children and keep misery from them and be a true dad and a true man and a true husband and yes there is Grace when you fall but you do not become a leader after that you follow the leader my friend
I appreciate the comments. Just curious: are we talking about "egregious" sin as disqualifying (what makes a sin reproachable--if that makes sense). Here's where I'm coming from: some pastors don't report monetary gifts for performing weddings/funerals on taxes, they use video clips from movies illegally in sermons (not giving credit or getting permission), fudge on mileage, and some probably gossip. Not trying to be a smart aleck. I guess for me, I see a lot of problems in the pastorate--not just with the big sins and mega church pastor, but across the board.
The sins that would disqualify a person from leadership are usually referencing qualifications for elders and overseers found in Titus 1:5-9 and I Timothy 3.
Many of the things you mention would likely not be above reproach. My question would be what do they do when confronted about these things? If I want to be above reproach, I confess the behavior as soon and repent of it. If I act as if it's not a big deal, then it doesn't seem that I care about being above reproach. We all sin, but how we respond to the sin shows a lot
I agree with this and am grateful for faithful preachers and teachers who love the Lord and the church. I followed many of these men and teachings. In regard to my own sin, I have learned that I must follow Christ and not man. A false shepherd can’t “shepherd” if no one is following. A plurality of biblically qualified elders really matters.
Waiting to hear Todd on the Steve Lawson matter
Normally, I would agree with Todd on many issues. However, I wholeheartedly disagree with putting Pastor James McDonald and Pastor Mark Driscoll on this list of fallen Pastors. Both, were involved with personality disputes and disagreements.
At Mars Hills , they disbanded after Pastor Driscoll left: where's the elders christiandedom in that!
Both have gone on to solid ministries and doing the Lord's work. Understand, Our God makes the final call whether a Pastor should be restored to doing The Lord's work not ANY man!! Consider Peter after denying Christ 3 times; Our Lord used him mightily after his fall!!
Let's us always demonstrate Our God's grace and mercy to our brothers and sisters!!!
We might need it someday!!
That happens when conference delegates VOTE on whether the denomination will accept God's Word or say 'YA BUT' as SBC just did.
What should happen is one should leave it.
Lots of conviction here. Good word !
What i have seen too many times, in small churches, is a man gets fired from a church (often seems to be over an affair) and just a few months later he's preaching at another small church. Sometimes now married to the woman he cheated with. New church "forgives him" mostly because they're desperate and he's a talented speaker. Rinse and repeat.
It's as if everyone has a problem with letting go and letting fail, and even letting die. If a tree dies, can it be made to live again, or is it cut down so another grows in its place? Should it still be used to swing from and build forts in? I know this question isn't the same as whether or not salt can be made salty again, but think about it - early churches formed from the ground up, isn't that the only way a church grows and thrives; from the ground up in Jesua Chirst? Only Jesus Christ is The Way, The Truth, ans The Life.
Thank you Chris Rosebro for teaching me how to discern between faithful preaching and false preaching.
Thank you Todd - you help to set my mind on things above.
100% agree Todd, great video
But, Todd is going beyond scripture. The bible never says a fallen pastor is disqualified for life.
As a preacher's kid I say absolutely they cannot be restored! It's bad enough that a preacher falls but even worse sinful board doorknobs restore the man.
Carl Lentz stated numerous times he isn’t returning to the office of pastor
Am thankful Jesus saved this sinner who is watching this video. And by the grace of God go I....
I do not fool myself to think that I am above the sins of these in this video even after being saved.
Each day is a walk with the Lord and the necessity in putting His desires above mine.
Been saved over 40 years and am still working on it each day with His Spirit.
Thanks for your videos, Mr. Friel!
I hope you have the same thought process with Steve Lawson. Will wait and see your response to him.
I’m surprised that a Pastor who commits adultery can return to the pulpit?
What's surprising is a "pastor" who is not worthy of pastoring, doesn't recuse himself all together.
I got kicked out of my church for (biblically) confronting our pastoral leadership about the restoration of a pastor that was guilty of sexual promiscuity and under investigation for sexual assault. I asked the same question about "above reproach" and I was removed from fellowship. The cowards never even entertained a biblical approach to restoration or simply a reasonable face-to-face conversation with me.
I'm sorry to hear that. It was probably one of the hardest things you have had to do, but not received
I thank God for you. We need more people like you!
@@robertyoder5477thanks. It was uncomfortable for sure. Not a great experience but not all that shocking once I found out to full truth (which is too long to post). It’s all just sad that it went the way it did. But at least my kids got to see me attempt to biblically approach the situation.
Sadly, it's all about the money with these TV pastors
And with UA-cam ministries!
Absolutely sound and biblical advice. True called men separated for the ministry should be without reproach and if they fall from that high calling then they must of course lament, repent, seek full earnest forgiveness and then be restored to fellowship with believers but NEVER to be allowed to serve in a local church as pastor, elder or deacon. That said, but for the grace of God go I or every believer for that matter . ‘ Oh wretched man that I am, who will delivery me from this body of sin’ ‘There is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus who walk after the spirit rather than the flesh’ 🙏🙏🙏
The Weird Al rendition of that song may be more appropriate, "Another one rides the bus." Quite a few should have served at least some prison time, but it wouldn't jive with the restoration process. 😅
I am a Christian who repented and was restored 3 years ago by the grace of God to fellowship with God and the church body after years of living in unrepentant sexual sin with my ex-girlfriend(who I'm praying for till this very day), and I know full well from Scripture that even though I'm forgiven my great iniquity I am permitantly disqualified from the office of pastor or even elder! Hard but Biblically accurate and good teaching by brother Friel!
I am not above reproach. That's why I'm not a pastor, but an evangelist. I did commit my sins when I was a youth, and not as a Christian, but still, I'm not above reproach. I can however, share with people the redemption of Christ in my life.
Every Christian should aim at being above reproach. I pray that’s where you’re aiming everyday. As Jesus said “to be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect.” It’s amazing to me that there are many saints in the Old Testament that lived holier lives than many today who have the Holy Spirit within. I pray we all realize that truth more and more and walk how we are called to by His grace and power.
@@JesusIsESSENTIAL Yes, I try. But I'm not above reproach. I have sinned. I'm not very righteous, though I try to be. God is my righteousness. Not me. And I don't have any righteousness of my own, and need His rest to do anything good. All good I have, proceeds out of Christ.
I'm a poet, but my words are lame. I'm an evangelist, but my arguments are weak. However, it is Christ who makes them strong, and works on the hearer's heart. Not me or my craftiness. Like Moses I stutter--in a way, my speech is not normal. But, through God's act and God's work, my words bring back a harvest. Because of my own, they don't have power, unless God works on the hearer's heart.
@@BKNeifert absolutely. Apart from Christ we can do NOTHING. And it’s only by His righteousness that we are made righteous. We have none of our own. BUT, we are still commanded to be holy and He is. There is the sovereignty of God’s righteousness that covers us but there is our responsibility to walk in that righteousness. Those who have been born again WILL walk in that righteousness because He causes us to do it.
“Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.”
Ezekiel 36:26-27
Yes, we rest in Him and His righteousness but if we truly have His Spirit within us we WILL walk in righteousness. Faith and love to God always produces obedience to His word. God always connects disobedience with hatred to Him and unbelief. So if our faith is genuine, our love and obedience will be as well.
@@BKNeifertevery single pastor in the world has sinned in the past week brother....
@@Joseph-e9p1x That's not true.
💯 agree with you here.
Humility, being above reproach and friends can all keep so much drama, trouble and even failure away.
No Scripture says, "A pastor who sins is disqualified FOR LIFE." Various churches are going to land in different places on this. Let's not make up a rule that is not in Scripture.
Of course some sins are so grievous that the fallen pastor must never be restored.
Amen. Todd is making stuff up again.
If the churches want more accountability in the pulpit, then there should be more accountability for every church member, which is just as bad of a problem.
Putting mark Driscoll on your list of adultery committing pastors is so twisted.
I was thinking the same thing!!
The criteria for the pastors he showed is likely, "fallen from being above reproach," in that they needed to resign from their positions for not meeting that Biblical standard. Anyone is able to research each pastor shown in order to see with more detail how they failed that standard. It's not only adultery that disqualifies a pastor. Are you a fan of Driscoll's?
@JesusIsTheOnlyWayTruthLife if that is the spirit behind what is meant, we wouldn't have any pastors
@leethomas556 Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.
- James 3:1
@@crocodile7801 we're talking about the furdics and what we would refer to as new angers and so forth to start with. The list goes on.
Love you, brother. Keep up the great work.
They treat being a pastor as......just a job.
@atoll8423 Exactly! These are the ones whose salvation is seriously suspect. Another thing is, when pastors are lax in their devotion to Christ, they make themselves open to all kinds of sins.
@atoll8423 Exactly! These are the ones whose salvation is seriously suspect. Another thing is, when pastors are lax in their devotion to Christ, they make themselves open to all kinds of sins.
Atoll8423. It is just a job for many
It’s a matter of trust, once broken, it is hard to restore. I see your point about the necessity of strict church discipline for pastors received from the early church teachings. It makes sense in that light to not restore them.
I think this Restoration nonsense really took off in the 80's with Jimmy Swaggert and Jim Baker
Jim Bakker smoothed the way for his comeback by renouncing prosperity preaching. He never seriously addressed the issue of his abnormal personal conduct and people just forgot about that
If God forgave Jimmy Swaggart what right do we have to still keep that against Jimmy...we may not judge....
SWAGGART WAS NEVER RESTORED BY THE ASSEMBLIES OF GOD. HE DIDN'T WANT TO GIVE UP HIS REVENUE. AT THE TIME OF HIS FALL, HE WAS BRINGING IN BETWEEN $95-$105 MILLION PER YEAR. BAKER WENT TO PRISON BECAUSE OF OVER BOOKING ROOMS AT PTL. HE SURROUNDED HIMSELF WITH A LOT OF UNSCRUPULOUS PEOPLE WHO HAD A NEGATIVE INFLUENCE ON HIM. HE WAS NEVER RESTORED TO MINISTER AGAIN, EVEN THOUGH IS REPENTANCE IS BETWEEN HIM AND GOD.
They should not be "restored" like what they did was nothing. Ridiculous.
If one has to be totally blameless, sin free, whatever, then no one is qualified. We have all sinned and fallen short. Dirt will keep coming out on others, Should we judge another because ours hasn't been revealed yet? If God can talk through a jackass, He can speak through anyone. Besides aren't we told to trust no man, or woman. Our trust should be in the Bible, or the Word of God. Want a word from God, go read it.
It doesn’t mean to be sin free but it does mean to live a holy life which is totally possible with the power of the Holy Spirit! If men and women from the Old Testament times could live holy lives even in the midst of a depraved culture (Daniel, Noah, Lot, etc..) how much more so should we today who now have the gift of the Holy Spirit within us to empower us?? Where is our faith today? It’s like we believe the enemies lies that we just can’t live for the Lord in our culture instead of what God’s word so clearly teaches. We must fast and pray and lean upon the Lord and trust in Him and actively put off sin and put on righteousness. To purify ourselves as He is pure. To come out from the world and be separate and touch not the unclean thing! If that means getting rid of tv and things, than do it. “Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. Be miserable and mourn and weep; let your laughter be turned into mourning and your joy to gloom. Humble yourselves in the presence of the Lord, and He will exalt you.”
James 4:8-10
@@JesusIsESSENTIAL And how do we put on righteousness? It implies that there is something to put on. Jesus lived a righteous life and ate with sinners, discussed current affairs, and was unafraid of touching the unclean.
@@godswarriors7543 yes, Christ and Christ alone is our righteousness. But that does not negate our responsibility to live holy as He is holy. There is God’s sovereignty and man’s responsibility. If we have truly been born again, we WILL walk according to His word. Our hearts have been changed, His Spirit now leads us. We are no longer our own but have been bought with a price. It’s no longer we who live but Christ in us. We have transferred our ownership over to Christs Lordship. He is Master and is the most gracious and loving Master we could ever imagine. But as we are now His, we obey His instructions (His Word) and that is the righteousness that we “put on”. We aren’t made righteous in Him and then walk contrary to that righteousness. No, we walk according to it because it is who we now are, all praise and glory to Him.
Malpractice can seriously hurt people. Removal is an absolute necessity to avoid future gross negligence.
Right as usual Todd.
But, he isn't. Todd is going beyond scripture. The bible never says a fallen pastor is disqualified for life.
@@RivendellFellowship
Look at it carefully with a proper hermeneutic. Either qualified or disqualified. If you’re not beyond reproach which means leading up to (since you’re born again) and during your service then you’re disqualified. Period. You can’t then become beyond reproach again. Just like you can’t be born again- again.
You’ll always have a record of reproach. And you’ll never be beyond it. You can still repent and trust Christ and be saved but you’ll always have a record of reproach. And that disqualifies you to shepherd God’s flock. Stop already.
Your mindset is complicit in the false teaching problem warned about in every NT book except Philemon. Learn to properly and precisely handle God’s Word.
@jamesmccaughey7754 but you are reading into the reproach is forever. The Scriptures don't say that. No, I am not into a mindset of false teaching. You are the one adding to the scriptures.
@@RivendellFellowship
Again you must be beyond reproach before you take office. You can’t fall into reproach and say you’re beyond reproach again after falling into reproach. That is foolish biblically. Do you understand implicit vs explicit? No you clearly do not.
Stop looking for a way to embrace sin. That is the practice of sin by definition and places you in reproach. Repent.
Your
@jamesmccaughey7754 wrong, you are beyond reproach when you are restored before taking office.
I am revisiting this video the day after the news of Steve Lawson’s sin. Praying for him, his family and TBC Dallas. Also praying that his removal from pastoral ministry remains permanent according to biblical guidelines and no effort is made by him or anyone else toward “restoration”.
I love you sir. Thank you for opening the comment section and allowing for fellowship on this subject.
Well said Todd. More accountability and above reproach. It is hypocritical for the church. I dont like or appreciate certain TV pastors that may publicly repent, but they refuse to step down for any length of time and continue preaching. Im understanding sinning pastors teach false doctrine. I think Paul said this...
What about Mark Driscoll? He teaches biblically sound doctrine and I still listen to him. Is it possible that this could be a stumbling block? I don’t know how much I agree with you on this. I can see pretty much everyone else on the list but him.
The fact that you agree with Driscoll's theology does not mean he teaches sound doctrine. The very fact that he's practicing false doctrine means his theology is polluted. Everybody says their fav pastor preaches sound doctrine, but it's only because they won't truly scrutinize what they're preaching or practicing.
@@theeternalsbeliever1779where is Driscoll preaching false doctrine. I’m genuinely curious for your example.
If you watch the video its clear the point Todd is making. Its nothing to do with the doctrine they are teaching, they can be excellent preachers. But the type of sin they commit that disqualifies them then eliminates the decision of restoring them to the role of pastor as a prudent one. Look at the sin Mark committed, he should be sitting under the leadership of others. Non-christians will look at the church and will rightfully laugh and mock when they see we aren't taking sin seriously and we restore these men to be pastors again
While Driscoll’s sermons tend to be something akin to stand-up Christian comedy, I don’t buy the “kind of sin” argument. Driscoll is still a powerful force for introducing many to Christianity.
@@howardgrominger296how much of his sermons have you watched? In the last two months, I have watched around 20 hours worth of his sermons, mostly from the last two years. He tells jokes, but by no means would I say his sermons are stand up comedy. Humor is a small portions of his sermons. He is very convicting and is blatant about sin and denying one’s flesh and Worshiping God. I have performed stand up comedy on an amateur level so that is why that comparison is a meaningful one for me.
Going back to the original commenter and this video, I think the point is that they are not fit to lead due to their behaviors, even if their sermons are righteous. Being a pastor is also about mentoring, caring for, and guiding members of the church. Those behaviors would make one unsuited to complete the full interpersonal role even if you can deliver righteous sermons. Do I agree with not being able to be restored? I don’t. I think if you hold yourself and have others hold you accountable, you can continue being a pastor. I don’t know for sure though. Just my opinion based on my understanding of grace and my personal experience seeing growth in people throughout their lives.
Give greater thought to conscience and consequences -Grieving the lord that redeems me. Dragging his sacred name into the mud. Looking at Jesus in the face giving account for my actions.
I will have to disagree with adding Mark Driscoll. He had no agrievous sin. Just characteristics he needed to work on.
I agree, I haven’t heard anyone say what Driscoll has done to disqualify him.
I haven’t seen anything to disqualify him and he seems to be faithfully preaching to this day.
He repeatedly threatened his elder board when confronted with taking money to promote his book. He used church funds for this. He was abusive and said that he would "destroy" some of them. He also referred to women as " homes for penis's." Vulgarity and spiritual abuse absolutely disqualifies someone from the office of pastor.
Agreed. I don’t know how being mean is the same as committing adultery or other grotesque sins like being a child predator
What pastoral trait does he exhibit? There is a difference between someone who gets behind the pulpit and someone who is a pastor. His teachings are very shallow, and he needs to undergo church discipline for his actions at Mars Hill.
Great video!! Very timely!!
This is assuming there has ever been a pastor that was truly ‘beyond reproach’ or did they just not get caught?
That's a good argument. Does the man have actions and behaviors that align with God's will, shepherding the people, and teaching the word? "He who knows what is right and does not do it, for him it is sin." James 4:17. If we hold everything about behaviors, actions, and intentions in absolutes, no man would be qualified for leadership over the church.
In what way do we extend grace to our leadership that accepts them as a sinner (James 4:17) and qualifies them as above reproach (1 Timothy 3)? Absolutes are a dangerous frame of mind.
Agreed. And one of the absolutes of humanity is that we all fall short. Redemption is the beautiful part of grace that the church seems to have the hardest time with but is one of the main themes of the bible. Good to keep people accountable while still emphasizing grace and redemption. Also i believe redemption is possible whether the fall happens before or after coming to Christ. Just one of the thoughts i have when we talk about ‘disqualification’. Is anyone truly qualified? I don’t know. Just my thoughts. Cheers!
Thing is, Paul says that _God_ appoints the ministers in His Church, so He has better insight when it comes to who is or isn't qualified than anybody else. The ministers in traditional Christianity are where they are because they either gave themselves those positions or somebody voted on it. Usually, it's because the person installed themselves into those positions. The fact that traditional Christianity has these problems is proof that its churches aren't led by God.
What does it mean to be above reproach?
Strong's g423
- Lexical: ἀνεπίληπτος
- Transliteration: anepilémptos
- Part of Speech: Adjective
- Phonetic Spelling: an-ep-eel'-ape-tos
- Definition: irreproachable, never caught doing wrong.
- Origin: From a (as a negative particle) and a derivative of epilambanomai; not arrested, i.e. (by implication) inculpable.
- Usage: blameless, unrebukeable.
- Translated as (count): above reproach (3).
I have a problem with this message. It almost infers that a pastor must be perfect, which is just not reality. No one is perfect. Then the question would have to be, what sins are bad enough to remove a pastor? Take Mark Driscoll, since he was included in the clip, as an example. Yes, Mark was, and is, very passionate, and that came across as angry at times. Truthfully, I have seen some of his angry outbursts and thought they were appropriate given the circumstances. Do I always agree with Mark Driscoll, no. But I don't agree with Voddie Bochum, Paul Washer, or any other pastor on all issues. Blatant sins, like adultery, of course should carry the consequence of pastoral removal, but we need to be careful how far we extend this policy toward pastors in sin, otherwise we may not have any pastors remaining.
Thought the same. And in a video where he calls out a modern pastor for being angry, he holds up Luther and Calvin. The irony there is hilarious!
(Like the video overall, just agreeing with your comment and pointing out a few issues)
I was 15 years old when Paster Ball, of an Auburn, California church destroyed my life for many years.
Are you okay now?
@@jonathankoch2803 Thank you for asking.
Not really, but I am working on a close relationship with God and Jesus. I will probably never trust preachers.
Pastors who control the men under and around them with money or power and prestige also control their mouths… The traditional system is set up to fail unless each man walks circumspectly in their own mind and heart…
Mark Driscoll and these other guys aren't Pastors they are Speakers!!
Religious Entrepreneurs
2 Timothy 3-5 [AVOID THESE PEOPLE]
"Understand that the last days will be dangerous times. 2 People will be selfish and love money. They will be the kind of people who brag and who are proud. They will slander others, and they will be disobedient to their parents. They will be ungrateful, unholy, 3 unloving, contrary, and critical. They will be without self-control and brutal, and they won’t love what is good. 4 They will be people who are disloyal, reckless, and conceited. They will love pleasure instead of loving God. 5 They will look like they are religious but deny God’s power. Avoid people like this".
Peter was restored to ministry, so you’re wrong about that
Peter denied Jesus three times, after Jesus said that anyone who denies him would also be denied to the father, but Jesus restored him to ministry leadership completely.
How many other examples of ministers being restored can I find with just a little Bible study?
What about Jonah being restored after his disobedience?
What about David being restored to leadership after his disobedience?
Are there more?
I like Mark Driscoll. He preaches the Bible. He's also a human. Anger issues? Pride issues? Join the club. He's real. He's relatable. Sorry Todd this isn't the 1600's anymore. God never changes. People do. Mark loves people and preaches the Word. If and when he says something screwy, I'll be done. It's been months and all I get is wonderful preaching of the Word and funny jokes about our culture and Government.
@timcotrell9753 - how long did stop the coarse/ filthy/ silly diatribe ?
( Confer at Paul-ie to Eph-Es-ians § 5:4.)
I agree, Mark Driscoll teaches the bible. And of all the wrongs committed by church leaders, struggling with anger is not all that disqualifying to me. If he is too mean and angry, go to/watch a different church/pastor. His bible teaching is really something special. God uses imperfect people. While he fixes them, they change the lives of others. It's a common theme throughout the bible. Peter followed, believed, and taught about Jesus, then denied him 3 times and was restored to continue Christ's ministry. This video topic seems out of touch. You might have a bunch of historical church figures that agree with this video's premise, but there were many historical church figures that also agreed with the crusades. I don't think either are in line with what Jesus said. I don't know about the other pastors and their wrongdoings, but Mark Driscoll is doing great, actually teaching the bible, and bringing millions of people to Jesus.
Y’all must not have listened to the series the fall of mars hill (his church that fell apart in Washington) or done any research on him. He has said absolutely DISGUSTING things about women that no person, Christian, and especially pastor should have said. He is not qualified just because you have itching ears and enjoy what he says now that he is a pastor somewhere else.
@_shaylamarr who made you judge and jury? Is saying a mean thing worse than denying Jesus 3 times? Peter continued his work. Is saying a mean thing worse than murder and adultery? King David kept his leadership position. Why do you think you are the authority? Everyone has a past, there is redemption in the bible. Pretty sure Jesus didn't let people's sins define them. Mark is a great bible teacher of our time. Even if he said a mean thing to someone in his past and he is not saying terrible things in his preaching so he is not instilling it in his listeners. If this grudge you've been carrying for a decade gets too heavy, there is this guy named Jesus who says you don't have to carry it anymore you can let it go.
@@ap8057 well, as video talked about there is a difference in rejoining the body and rejoining leadership. Of course there’s grace and forgiveness for him as a Christian but that doesn’t mean he’s qualified to be a leader again (of which he never publicly acknowledged or apologized for this, so he especially shouldnt publicly be a leader). I don’t have a grudge, just pointing out truth that he’s not above reproach. It’s your opinion that he’s a great Bible teacher. And if anything you’re the one that’s coming across super aggressive 😵💫 hope you find some peace, joy, love, patience, goodness, gentleness, and self control.
When I stumbled into the UMC after my encounter with Christ, the pastor at that church counseled me. I had been mixed up with tarot cards and all the Buddhist crap that's popular now. He was a God given help to me and put me on a straight path.
And he had been unfaithful to his first wife and everyone knew about it. If he'd been given the gate I don't know where I'd have ended up. He got me into the Disciple classes. Those were life changing. Sometimes the wounded are the best healers.
I agree to a degree. Certian things such as abuse of power and adultary are automatic disqualifications, but this doesn't mean they can't be restored years down the road through repentance.
Or else we all would have disqualified Peter immediately and we wouldn't be talking about this today.
These sociopaths can't stand being out of the limelight...the money & power are very nice too. They hold these over holding on to God. Grace & mercy are their game & they play people well. They should fade into the gray & let someone else lead.
Restoration… to the Body
NOT the ministry 😕
Mark Driscoll does NOT belong on this list.
He was found to be quick tempered and was investigated by our church elders. There was a disciplinary and restoration plan in place but he decided to resign as it was about to take effect.
This is actually documented with transcripts of the meeting with Mark online. Kinda hard to find but they’re present as you look at the investigated work that Warren Throckmorton was doing.
The thing that makes this confusing for the public is that it’s not as blatant as adultery. You can beat people down with your words in a way that leave no visible bruises.
What about when Paul called out Peter? Peter still went on to do great things and be a pastor.
Was thinking the same thing. Pastors are still human and will make mistakes.
Every single person in the bible other than Jesus made mistakes on their service and walk with God.
That of course doesn’t mean there isn’t consequences for our actions.
There’s a difference between a momentary lapse on judgment and habitual, perpetual sinful, unchristlike or immoral behavior as a lifestyle.
@@valeriegoldstein3483 I guess the contrasts in the first two Kings of Israel would be a good example. One had a heart from himself and one for God. King David after committing adultery and murder being punished by the taking of their baby was sorry and wept before God. King Saul after being caught not following Gods commandment to wipe out all the Amalekites went to worship God. God got rid of one but not the other. One was only doing it for show and didn't have a personal relationship with God, the other knew God and deeply loved him.
It was a difference of opinion between apostles and it was worked out with Paul's facing it and Peter's agreement. Peter had not abused a person in his flock, he had not molested a child or a woman, he had not stolen church donations or committed fraud of any kind. He had not had an adulterous affair outside of his marriage. Get the point?
I simply refuse to believe that any man is above reproach in todays day and age. He would have to live like a monk in order to avoid all the temptations that are out there.
MR. MR MR MR MR MR FRIEL 😂😂