Nobody said it was over 600 wheel HP. It makes almost 615 HP at the battery and that is a true measured value we read directly from the battery. The issue with your dyno numbers is that Dynos are not meant to measure power or torque at very low speeds. That is why cars are typically dyno’d in 4th or 5th gear at much higher speeds. 500+ HP at low speeds is an extreme amount of torque and dynos can’t typically handle it. Plus they lose accuracy because the torque and accelerations are so severe at low speeds. There is no way a car with only 500 WHP is running 10.75 @ 127 mph in the 1/4 mile. Just plug that time and speed into any HP calculator and you will see that those specs require at least 600+ Wheel HP. The car absolutely makes 610+ HP at the battery and something like 550+ WHP when the battery is fully optimized. I know everyone wants to get dyno numbers for this car but it won’t be accurate because the single speed transmission in an EV makes typical dynos useless for measuring an EV. The Kia EV6 GT that is said to have 576 HP has that value at the battery. If you read the exact same metric for the new Model 3 Performance it will read 613 HP. Why does everyone believe the 576 HP value for the EV6 GT and not the 613 HP value for the Tesla?
My 2024 MYP "on paper" is 455-510 hp (with different websites claiming those numbers). Every time people ask me how much HP it has, I always say, "idk... all I know is it's fast as fuck, and the torque is crazy. " 😂
The dude who ran many 10s already inc multiple 10.7s in NC shared his teslafi data at max output so far of 457kws. The U.S. spec new 24 m3p is a fkn monster! Best per dollar value American made sports sedan available. 👍🏻😎 Makes me wonder if the new m3 lr rwd trim at $42,490 with 363 miles of range has the 4du in it? Since it does 0-60mph in 4.9s with a single motor stock. Imagine a boost upgrade to run low 4s in a rwd trim m3 for under 38k!
@@sleepy_ipl says who? Tesla once built sleeper perf trims and used the more powerful motors in the lr&even the very first nmc 50kwh early sr m3s. Maybe they will here to. 😀
@4literv6 the sleeper performance trim was just a model 3 performance with 18" wheels, did not have red painted brakes, no carbon fiber trunk spoiler and interior trim.
I really hope we end up finding out that the performance drive unit is what's in that new RWD LR 3. That's what I've been hoping for since it was announced that a new rear drive unit was coming.
Many ppl overlook what Elon talks about in this model, that it’s not just higher HP, but more importantly the PEAK power & torque is MAINTAINED LONGER for a better full 1/4 mile for example. Another great vid Michael.
Thanks for that! The thing with the new Performance model is that it continue to pull hard att higher speeds where the old model fell off. So maybe the peak HP-numbers are similar, but if we would put the charts from the new and old car ontop of each other, we would se bigger and bigger difference as the rpm/speed goes up. That is a good thing :) Thanks again!
You're right, most people who talk specs only talk in terms of peak power figures. Then they scratch their heads when a 500 hp car is slower than a 400 hp one. Where in reality the 500 one only makes that at a very narrow band of its rev range, and is below 400 through most of it.
Congrats!!! Out of curiosity, how does the comfort of the model x plaid suspension feel compared to the m3p? I’m guessing the X feels much softer/comfortable for everyday driving but wanted to hear your experience
Everybody focus on dyno numbers I don’t care about dyno numbers. I don’t know the power of my 9’s Mustang. The most important figure to determine power/weight is trap speed. That doesn’t lie A 500whp narrow power band car will be slower than a 500 whp wide power band on the same weight. New model 3 has a wider powerband than the previous and that’s where the quicker acceleration comes from.
Finally, one other person on UA-cam who understands dynos and how you can’t compare between dynos on different days, and what the purpose of dynoing is. If I had a dollar for every moron who compares what someone got on some other dyno on some other day to what I got, lol.
@@manfromlamanchathe car is not made for tracks where you are a lot of time in full power and full braking a lot of times in low time to cool the car and brakes, is a performance car for normal streets where we are not full braking a lot of times and not very long time full power
@@manfromlamancha meh read motor trends latest lucid air sapphire review. 250k 5,335# 1234hp fker cooked it's front 16" 10 piston full carbon ceramic brakes in just 1.5 hot laps after they ran it in reduced power track mode with pre cooling. 👍🏻😀
@@joaomatos14 Yep, 100% agree. These are street cars not track cars. Yes, they can be tracked but it is not their forte. Their strength lies in dominance on regular roads where 99% of people use their cars. I hope there is a software boost in the future!
My ‘18 performance does fine at the track though. No overheating in 6 years, only changed tires and brake pads. Just disappointing that the new one can’t handle it.
yet more great content. Thanks much for doing this. Seems the big power difference between the 2024 Performance and earlier versions is not the absolute power, but the "area under the curve". As Tesla stated, the new motor is able to produce higher power far further up the rev range than the earlier motor. The performance testing definitely shows this to be the case, with substantially higher 1/4 mile trap speeds and substantially faster high speed acceleration. When comparing my former 2019 LRDM car to the Performance version of that car it was pretty clear that the Performance variant was only faster up to 60, and after that they were the same. My new 2024 Performance is not like that, and has substantially more high speed power than the 2019 car.
Great breakdown discussion on inertia vs brake dyno. With a 15% difference as mentioned in the video, then your best run would be 514 HP --> 591 HP on a DynoJet. Nice!
Thank you for your attention to detail! That could be on the very high end of the dyno jet given they have a large inertia, but certainly anywhere in the mid low 500 to mid high 500 seems likely
It definitely is more horsepower! Just more of an incremental improvement. Hopefully they can unlock more potential with a different battery or sofrware. But certainly it’s a much better overall car.
even if peak power is only incrementally improved, clearly the power is spread out to the top end because people notice how powerful the car pulls at higher speeds over the old one. that wouldnt be just a incremental power increase, thats a factor of the improved motor that can output more power for longer, at higher speeds while the old one peaks and drops off way sooner.
Thanks for that, very interesting and your explanation at the beginning was excellent. Many a young man and their money has been parted with dyno tweaks.
Inertial dynos usually estimate the transmision looses, and provide engine power figures. If you can try to do that with an EV, as they have regenerative braking and no clutch, you will overestimate the looses and you will read at least 100 extra hp.
Geez.... with all the caveats about dyno's varying the results depending on brand, make, settings etc. it sounds like a great reason to find a better, more universal method of measurement that can be applied and tested the same on all vehicles in order to simplify and level the playing field.
@@roxxor3 In the netherlands they need to register each model at the goverment, there you can see the hp for the LR and the performance. the LR has 498hp, the Performance 460hp.
@@vlabmw9189 same for germany except that they check the performance under a 30 minute test so the actual electrical hp are way lower than they are advertised. Kinda outdated imo but whatever. Ive seen that number and its weird since my 2021 got 440 hp. the highland got 498. The old performance got 510 and the new 460. I think the measurements of tesla differs from the ones used by the gov. the motors themselves come to 627 hp so the battery is clearly the limiting factor.
Will be cool to log the KW draw with something like the S3XY Commander when it becomes available in next month. My late 2023 MYP will pull 455 KW peak when I am @ 90%+ SOC and my batteries are close to 120 degrees. Battery pack temp can play a big roll in output as well.
Your point on comparing old vs new on the SAME dyno is very valid. On the 550 you are referring to, I recommend watching the beginning of the video discussing the variability in Dyno instruments.
We know the new M3P is quite a bit quicker than the pre-refresh so no one really knows the actual HP of either one. Mishas buddy and yours show close to the same HP, but the new one easily out runs the last gen so using a dyno on these is a crapshoot.
Great vid with useful background information, thank you! LearningFast was reporting low 600's for battery horsepower reading with a conditioned battery. That's about 100HP difference vs. this dyno run. With much fewer moving parts vs. ICE, there should not be many mechanical losses. Maybe a difference in battery temp? (Did you happen to note battery temp during the dyno?)
Yes there are differences in dyno's. But didn't the gen1 M3P receive a 5% boost on two separate occasions? You cited one, and this could account for some difference in the older dyno number in the high 400's you were citing vs what some others have measured at a little over 500 peak HP. Also, an important distinction between the old and new is not just the peak power, but the spread over which it makes consistently higher power. The newer gen motors are more efficient and holder higher hp over a broader wheel speed. So the old M3P might measure as high as 523hp on one dyno up to a certain speed, but then it trails off until it settles around 400hp, whereas the newer model has a higher peak HP and then settles to a lower hp as speed increases, but the lower rating is obviously higher than the old gen motors. I don't know if that makes sense, but I'm guessing on a like for like dyno, where the old M3P was measuring over 500HP at the peak and closer to 400HP at higher speeds, the new one would measure somewhere north of 600HP and settle in the high 400's at higher speeds.
@@mholmes9262 6:32 yep agree that the peak HP happening at a higher speed is a big improvement and translates to better pull over a wider range of speed in the real world. These results pretty much match what Tesla was saying about the peak horsepower happening around 60mph
@@officialmichaeltan Yeah it's a great improvement over the last gen. How are you liking the new front seats? That's honestly my only gripe with my car ('22 M3P) because the side bolsters are kind of non-existent and I wouldn't mind a little longer bottom cushion (I'm 6'3") but I would love the higher HP, too. I'd love to see how this car compares to the Model S LR, which will be my next move (maybe the Plaid, but it's really not necessary...just bragging rights haha).
@@mholmes9262 long range S would be dope! The side bolstering is much more prominent. I was grateful for it on the racetrack. Honestly the bottom feels about the same length as a 2020 M3 I sat in but not 100% sure.
Torque is not that important for EVs, i wouldn't worry about it. Torque was only ever important when cars needed to get power early in the rev range. Once 8 speed gearboxes became the norm, it's just not that important for ICE cars either. Also high torque numbers usually come from turbo motors which have turbo lag, so factor all that together and torque ends up not being a useful parameter now.
@@EwanM11 Agree, especially for M3P, torque is not a concern. It gets off the line great and traction is not an issue. Main thing that needed improvement was the prior model would taper off above 60mph or so - the new rear motor and slight HP bump have helped in that regard.
@@EwanM11 What, Torque not important? Torque is telling how fast you can accelerate. That is at least how it is in physics. EVs naturally have a lot of torq -> accelerate fast.
![[UA] Team Vitality проти NAVI | IEM Cologne 2024](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/wttO1zVRTC0/mqdefault.jpg)
Nobody said it was over 600 wheel HP. It makes almost 615 HP at the battery and that is a true measured value we read directly from the battery. The issue with your dyno numbers is that Dynos are not meant to measure power or torque at very low speeds. That is why cars are typically dyno’d in 4th or 5th gear at much higher speeds. 500+ HP at low speeds is an extreme amount of torque and dynos can’t typically handle it. Plus they lose accuracy because the torque and accelerations are so severe at low speeds. There is no way a car with only 500 WHP is running 10.75 @ 127 mph in the 1/4 mile. Just plug that time and speed into any HP calculator and you will see that those specs require at least 600+ Wheel HP. The car absolutely makes 610+ HP at the battery and something like 550+ WHP when the battery is fully optimized. I know everyone wants to get dyno numbers for this car but it won’t be accurate because the single speed transmission in an EV makes typical dynos useless for measuring an EV. The Kia EV6 GT that is said to have 576 HP has that value at the battery. If you read the exact same metric for the new Model 3 Performance it will read 613 HP. Why does everyone believe the 576 HP value for the EV6 GT and not the 613 HP value for the Tesla?
People don’t like Tesla. Jealous.
507whp is close to 600bhp on awd ice car, I would say on dynojet probably makes 530-540whp.
Exactly all very good points. Dynos are not designed for the characteristics of an EV
@@Areku06sounds about right
My 2024 MYP "on paper" is 455-510 hp (with different websites claiming those numbers). Every time people ask me how much HP it has, I always say, "idk... all I know is it's fast as fuck, and the torque is crazy. " 😂
The dude who ran many 10s already inc multiple 10.7s in NC shared his teslafi data at max output so far of 457kws.
The U.S. spec new 24 m3p is a fkn monster! Best per dollar value American made sports sedan available. 👍🏻😎
Makes me wonder if the new m3 lr rwd trim at $42,490 with 363 miles of range has the 4du in it?
Since it does 0-60mph in 4.9s with a single motor stock. Imagine a boost upgrade to run low 4s in a rwd trim m3 for under 38k!
4du is only for performance trim.
@@sleepy_ipl says who? Tesla once built sleeper perf trims and used the more powerful motors in the lr&even the very first nmc 50kwh early sr m3s. Maybe they will here to. 😀
Probably just same as the Y - the RWD LR is 1 second faster than SR. I expect due to higher output battery with same motor.
@4literv6 the sleeper performance trim was just a model 3 performance with 18" wheels, did not have red painted brakes, no carbon fiber trunk spoiler and interior trim.
I really hope we end up finding out that the performance drive unit is what's in that new RWD LR 3. That's what I've been hoping for since it was announced that a new rear drive unit was coming.
Many ppl overlook what Elon talks about in this model, that it’s not just higher HP, but more importantly the PEAK power & torque is MAINTAINED LONGER for a better full 1/4 mile for example. Another great vid Michael.
@@rono33 exactly, more area under the curve! Great point
Interesting.
Thanks for that! The thing with the new Performance model is that it continue to pull hard att higher speeds where the old model fell off. So maybe the peak HP-numbers are similar, but if we would put the charts from the new and old car ontop of each other, we would se bigger and bigger difference as the rpm/speed goes up. That is a good thing :) Thanks again!
You're right, most people who talk specs only talk in terms of peak power figures. Then they scratch their heads when a 500 hp car is slower than a 400 hp one. Where in reality the 500 one only makes that at a very narrow band of its rev range, and is below 400 through most of it.
Got our 2024 M3 Ludicrous on June 26 and the driving just feels way better than my Model X Plaid hahah
Congrats!!! Out of curiosity, how does the comfort of the model x plaid suspension feel compared to the m3p? I’m guessing the X feels much softer/comfortable for everyday driving but wanted to hear your experience
Dude is smoking crack. My 24 X plaid is 3x better than any model 3.
@@zagato77904 Lol, to each their own. I've had mine for a year, so maybe I am biased with a new car. The New 3p is insanely fun
@@zagato77904 not round corners it isnt! No way an X could keep up on a twisty road. The 3 would lose it on the first corner!
BMW doesn’t make an m3 ludicrous.
Everybody focus on dyno numbers
I don’t care about dyno numbers. I don’t know the power of my 9’s Mustang.
The most important figure to determine power/weight is trap speed. That doesn’t lie
A 500whp narrow power band car will be slower than a 500 whp wide power band on the same weight.
New model 3 has a wider powerband than the previous and that’s where the quicker acceleration comes from.
tbh the torque is probably the most interesting thing to see, we need those numbers!!
Finally, one other person on UA-cam who understands dynos and how you can’t compare between dynos on different days, and what the purpose of dynoing is. If I had a dollar for every moron who compares what someone got on some other dyno on some other day to what I got, lol.
Thanks man. I've been waiting to see this.
Awesome commentary at the beginning! Thank you for being informed and informing us!
Thank you for the feedback!! I’m no expert but learned from victor and did a lot of research
Great vid with awesome data thanks for doin this stuff with your M3P so we don’t have to lol have a good one and good luck growing your channel
My car hates me 😂
There's gotta be a software performance upgrade coming down the line, the motors and battery should be able to do more according to their specs??
It already has overheating issues on the track. Doubt that can be fixed with software but would be nice.
@@manfromlamanchathe car is not made for tracks where you are a lot of time in full power and full braking a lot of times in low time to cool the car and brakes, is a performance car for normal streets where we are not full braking a lot of times and not very long time full power
@@manfromlamancha meh read motor trends latest lucid air sapphire review. 250k 5,335# 1234hp fker cooked it's front 16" 10 piston full carbon ceramic brakes in just 1.5 hot laps after they ran it in reduced power track mode with pre cooling. 👍🏻😀
@@joaomatos14 Yep, 100% agree. These are street cars not track cars. Yes, they can be tracked but it is not their forte. Their strength lies in dominance on regular roads where 99% of people use their cars. I hope there is a software boost in the future!
My ‘18 performance does fine at the track though. No overheating in 6 years, only changed tires and brake pads.
Just disappointing that the new one can’t handle it.
yet more great content. Thanks much for doing this. Seems the big power difference between the 2024 Performance and earlier versions is not the absolute power, but the "area under the curve". As Tesla stated, the new motor is able to produce higher power far further up the rev range than the earlier motor. The performance testing definitely shows this to be the case, with substantially higher 1/4 mile trap speeds and substantially faster high speed acceleration. When comparing my former 2019 LRDM car to the Performance version of that car it was pretty clear that the Performance variant was only faster up to 60, and after that they were the same. My new 2024 Performance is not like that, and has substantially more high speed power than the 2019 car.
Yes great point!! The area under the curve is much better with the peak at around 60mph. Better horsepower at many different speeds on the road.
Great breakdown discussion on inertia vs brake dyno. With a 15% difference as mentioned in the video, then your best run would be 514 HP --> 591 HP on a DynoJet. Nice!
Thank you for your attention to detail!
That could be on the very high end of the dyno jet given they have a large inertia, but certainly anywhere in the mid low 500 to mid high 500 seems likely
Thank you for posting this. To me it really felt like more hp. Maybe someday we will get a ludicrous unlock for more power the motors are capable of!
It definitely is more horsepower! Just more of an incremental improvement. Hopefully they can unlock more potential with a different battery or sofrware. But certainly it’s a much better overall car.
@@officialmichaeltan agree. Coming out of an m3 I’m very satisfied with my decision
Can you try the Highland LR version too?
even if peak power is only incrementally improved, clearly the power is spread out to the top end because people notice how powerful the car pulls at higher speeds over the old one. that wouldnt be just a incremental power increase, thats a factor of the improved motor that can output more power for longer, at higher speeds while the old one peaks and drops off way sooner.
Agree the bigger area under the curve/higher peak at around 60mph instead of 40ish on the old one definitely is a big improvement and I can feel it.
Sweet!!!
Thanks for that, very interesting and your explanation at the beginning was excellent. Many a young man and their money has been parted with dyno tweaks.
Love it !!
Good video Michael ! Thanks for sharing.
Very cool, good to learn about HP
same
Inertial dynos usually estimate the transmision looses, and provide engine power figures. If you can try to do that with an EV, as they have regenerative braking and no clutch, you will overestimate the looses and you will read at least 100 extra hp.
Geez.... with all the caveats about dyno's varying the results depending on brand, make, settings etc. it sounds like a great reason to find a better, more universal method of measurement that can be applied and tested the same on all vehicles in order to simplify and level the playing field.
In the registration paper of the HL LR it says 498. I highly doubt that after this video.
By any chance can u get a Long Range version too?
That would be a cool test! Hopefully soon.
Lots of good info. Thanks
OH SHHHIII
10.9 sec quarter mile all day long ❤
The EU version only has 460 hp, while the Long range has 490 hp
Tesla never told official hp on the lr. The performance obviously got more.
@@roxxor3 In the netherlands they need to register each model at the goverment, there you can see the hp for the LR and the performance. the LR has 498hp, the Performance 460hp.
@@vlabmw9189 same for germany except that they check the performance under a 30 minute test so the actual electrical hp are way lower than they are advertised. Kinda outdated imo but whatever. Ive seen that number and its weird since my 2021 got 440 hp. the highland got 498. The old performance got 510 and the new 460. I think the measurements of tesla differs from the ones used by the gov. the motors themselves come to 627 hp so the battery is clearly the limiting factor.
Will be cool to log the KW draw with something like the S3XY Commander when it becomes available in next month. My late 2023 MYP will pull 455 KW peak when I am @ 90%+ SOC and my batteries are close to 120 degrees. Battery pack temp can play a big roll in output as well.
AC was on? Seems like that would certainly affect power.
We turned it on for the second half of the runs since it got hot inside. Maybe a little but pretty marginal.
seems like you didnt heat up the battery. the difference in hp with a battery at 25celcius and one at 50+ celcius in an m3p is 50hp.
Why have track mode if it's going to overheat and fall apart etc ??
Impressive!
FYI: Ref Italian Dyno, if it's the European M3P version, it has less power then the US version.
For the 2024 that is true but I don’t know if that is true for the older versions. Misha probably had the Europe version like the Italian video
I saw the old one dyno at 550hp. Can you actually do a fair race against a stock 21/23 M3P with same state of charge see what the results are
Your point on comparing old vs new on the SAME dyno is very valid. On the 550 you are referring to, I recommend watching the beginning of the video discussing the variability in Dyno instruments.
I meant just a fair drag race with the old model would be really cool to see
@@RIVvideos oh for sure. Performance on the track is the most interesting. Hopefully soon!
@@officialmichaeltan comparing on the track would be more complicated since you'd need professional drivers to get the max out of each car
@@RIVvideos 100%. Real world performance is what ultimately matters but measuring real world performance introduces so many variables.
We know the new M3P is quite a bit quicker than the pre-refresh so no one really knows the actual HP of either one. Mishas buddy and yours show close to the same HP, but the new one easily out runs the last gen so using a dyno on these is a crapshoot.
The best would be using an SI unit - Watt. There is no different HP/PS conversion problem.
As a chem e major, I agree
Great vid with useful background information, thank you!
LearningFast was reporting low 600's for battery horsepower reading with a conditioned battery. That's about 100HP difference vs. this dyno run. With much fewer moving parts vs. ICE, there should not be many mechanical losses. Maybe a difference in battery temp? (Did you happen to note battery temp during the dyno?)
There is a difference between max battery output and wheel hp.
Thank you Jason! Yes agree with chuck’s point definitely still some mechanical losses. Did not have the battery temp number unfortunately.
Do a top speed run
and NM?
Whatever the Dyno says isn't telling the whole story. You don't get 2.9 seconds like that
Yes there are differences in dyno's. But didn't the gen1 M3P receive a 5% boost on two separate occasions? You cited one, and this could account for some difference in the older dyno number in the high 400's you were citing vs what some others have measured at a little over 500 peak HP. Also, an important distinction between the old and new is not just the peak power, but the spread over which it makes consistently higher power. The newer gen motors are more efficient and holder higher hp over a broader wheel speed. So the old M3P might measure as high as 523hp on one dyno up to a certain speed, but then it trails off until it settles around 400hp, whereas the newer model has a higher peak HP and then settles to a lower hp as speed increases, but the lower rating is obviously higher than the old gen motors. I don't know if that makes sense, but I'm guessing on a like for like dyno, where the old M3P was measuring over 500HP at the peak and closer to 400HP at higher speeds, the new one would measure somewhere north of 600HP and settle in the high 400's at higher speeds.
@@mholmes9262 6:32 yep agree that the peak HP happening at a higher speed is a big improvement and translates to better pull over a wider range of speed in the real world. These results pretty much match what Tesla was saying about the peak horsepower happening around 60mph
@@officialmichaeltan Yeah it's a great improvement over the last gen. How are you liking the new front seats? That's honestly my only gripe with my car ('22 M3P) because the side bolsters are kind of non-existent and I wouldn't mind a little longer bottom cushion (I'm 6'3") but I would love the higher HP, too. I'd love to see how this car compares to the Model S LR, which will be my next move (maybe the Plaid, but it's really not necessary...just bragging rights haha).
@@mholmes9262 long range S would be dope! The side bolstering is much more prominent. I was grateful for it on the racetrack. Honestly the bottom feels about the same length as a 2020 M3 I sat in but not 100% sure.
Whats Torque please?
4:46 unfortunately we didn’t have rpm measurements that day which meant no torque readings. Hopefully we’ll find out soon.
@@officialmichaeltan oh crap , thanks you 🙂
Torque is not that important for EVs, i wouldn't worry about it. Torque was only ever important when cars needed to get power early in the rev range. Once 8 speed gearboxes became the norm, it's just not that important for ICE cars either. Also high torque numbers usually come from turbo motors which have turbo lag, so factor all that together and torque ends up not being a useful parameter now.
@@EwanM11 Agree, especially for M3P, torque is not a concern. It gets off the line great and traction is not an issue. Main thing that needed improvement was the prior model would taper off above 60mph or so - the new rear motor and slight HP bump have helped in that regard.
@@EwanM11 What, Torque not important? Torque is telling how fast you can accelerate. That is at least how it is in physics. EVs naturally have a lot of torq -> accelerate fast.
What is lr dyno of highland
Hope to find out soon!
so it's faster than a sports car for the price of a camery ?? got it.
Value is unrivaled.
how do you go into dyno mode ?
3:55 software tab > hold finger on the middle of the “model 3” text > type in “dynotest” when the popup appears
@@officialmichaeltan thank you for that i been struggling to go into dyno after the v12 update on my M3 LR
USA or EU version?
USA
Tesla itself is full of misconceptions
Too bad that power will never be used bc every Tesla owner has *range* *anxiety* all that hp is *useless*
What is range anxiety? I've only had my Tesla for 5 years so maybe I missed something.
This guy has no idea what he is talking about.
Brakes still suck