I also wandered into TMS as a way to help me through my withdrawal from an SSRI and a benzo. Making the connection of coming off the drugs, starting to feel emotions again, and the brain protecting me from these powerful feelings with symptoms, well that was just a moment of REVELATION that I will never forget. Thank you for your video!
Thanks that's a really interesting way to put it. I've now heard from a bunch of people who came across TMS when trying to figure out withdrawal. It's been a revelation for many of us. Thanks for sharing!
I watched every single second of this amazing video and just couldn't relate more to the idea of TMS and how it prolongs the horrible sensations of the already healed WD in us. Actually the brain is doing its best to protect us from experiencing more painful and excruciating buried and repressed emotional burdens and thus it's definitely a defensive mechanism. It's not until you assure the unconscious mind that you're safe and ready to befriend and accept those repressed feelings that the brain lets go of its grip on the WD simulation in its attempt to help us. Repetition, Journaling and constantly reminding the unconscious brain of the fact that we're healthy, safe, passionate and ready to experience the sweet and pleasant side of the world through our perception are crucially important in experiencing this life-altering and beautiful shift. Thanks a million for your invaluable video and your soothing and lovely tone of voice. Wish you the best of all this world could give. ⚘️🌹🌷✌️
That’s a great summary and such kind things to say! I, too, identify so much to TMS, The Mindbody Syndrome. It changed my entire life, not only saving me from protracted withdrawal, but I still use TMS ideas in my daily life when I feel any odd thing and I don’t know why. It’s made me so much less scared of myself. I wish you all the best as well!
I just now watched this video. I really like your comment. I’m curious, how are you doing now? I’ve been stuck in FFF for 7 years, still trying to taper off Valium and having so many debilitating symptoms that I often become unable to move on, and I even have to updose so I can function and not admit myself to the psych ward. I am a believe of TMS, and I have healed severe back pain using Sarno’s TMS. I started wondering that benzo withdrawal that takes years might be TmS. Do you know if I can start working on the TMS theory even thought I’m still tapering? I hope I will hear from you. 🙏🏼
This is great. I am just getting started watching it. I am just now using mind body practices for some lingering protracted symptoms and it’s helping so much. I truly believe in this.
Thanks. I see you’ve also made some videos about using mindbody approaches! It’s great that more people will find out about this sort of thing and maybe it'll resonate with them as well. I wish you continued success!
Gustav great job in this video. I had some TMS related issues in the past that I was able to resolve. lately I’ve been having caffeine withdrawal symptoms after stopping coffee for way too long that now I’m sure it is TMS again.
Very good video and explanation. Most people recover from benzo withdrawal in 18-24 months so time beyond that could very well be TMS which I have not seen discussed in the most popular Benzo forum. Makes a lot of sense but I think there will be a good deal of resistance to the idea, but then there is still huge resistance to TMS even with back pain. Keep up the good work!
Hi, thanks. I’ve seen people talk about having success with this or similar approaches on the Benzo forum and a few other places but it’s on the periphery. Some people are receptive but, yes, there’s often resistance as the “it’s always a neurobiological injury” model is so dominant.
@@gustavtms Hi, well it certainly is a neuro injury to start with but I think the various benzo sites and coaches are missing a trick if they don't consider TMS for protracted withdrawal. Maybe it all depends on why people took benzos to begin with. Mine was for chronic head and neck pain and that is where I am experiencing the worst symptoms now, way worse than they were to begin with thanks to modern medicine! Anyway my favourite channel for TMS is Jim Prussack, the PainPT, especially his playlist of Somatic Practices. Very soothing voice which is a big help and doesn't race through the information. This is also why I like your delivery, nice and slow. Thanks
@@gustavtms Hi, well it certainly is a neuro injury but I think the benzo sites and coaches are missing a trick if they do not consider TMS when it comes to protracted ie. more than 2 years. Anyway my favourite TMS channel is Jim Prussack, The PainPT especially his Somatic Tracking playlist in case you don't know him. Very soothing voice with nice slow delivery, unlike some who race through the information! Your presentation is also slow and calm, exactly the right pace for learning something new. Thanks
Dear Gustav. Thank you for the video. Would a general TMS therapist be sufficient for treating protracted withdrawal signals, or is it essential to find a TMS specialist with knowledge about the protracted withdrawal syndrome?
Hi, I don’t think a specialist TMS therapist is needed because the psychological basis of TMS is essentially the same whether it’s chronic pain or protracted withdrawal or whatnot. At the same time it's possible that a particular TMS therapist might not have heard of protracted withdrawal so you could always send prospective therapists emails and explain your situation and go from there.
think I have the most severe mental symptoms since I read many people stories. I have extremely severe intrusive racing thoughts. Severe flasback thoughts and images from childhood memories till now. Weird feeling. Hyper sensitive to every thought and sensation. Hyperawarness. Combined with severe depression and derealization and 24/7 hypersalivation with panick and cognitive impairment, brain fog attacks, I feel like I am the strongest person in the planet
Hello! Thank you deeply for taking the time to make this very interesting video! After watching it, I have started to read about this, but I have some difficulties to apply it to withdrawal. In my situation, the main symptoms of my "prolonged withdrawal syndrome" is powerful emotions: extreme fear, adrenaline, sheer terror, anger, agoraphobia, OCD... (I didn't have these symptoms before, I was put on antidepressant for "depression", not anxiety). So I don't have physical symptoms that "distract" me from emotionnal symptoms. I have tried journaling, but I might be doing it wrong because it seems to reinforce my "OCD" that appears with withdrawal. If you agree and feel comfortable to do so, I would love to read your thoughts about how to apply this mindbody approach to withdrawal symptoms that are emotional and not physical!
Hi! I’m sorry to hear you’re feeling these powerful, frightening emotions. When I experienced “protracted withdrawal”, I had waves of extreme fear, terror, and anger and it was beyond awful. So your question of how to apply this mindbody approach to emotional aspects of “withdrawal” is a really relevant one and something I relate to. I can share some of my own thoughts on this. The most prominent understanding of TMS, and what’s shown in research, is that powerful unconscious emotions can activate a sort of “danger signal” in the brain. And because our emotional and physiological experiences overlap in the brain, this danger signal can trigger horrible physical discomfort. If someone gets “preoccupied” with this discomfort, it can be “learned” and ultimately “distract” a person from their deeper emotional suffering. But what's talked about less, and perhaps more relevant to yourself, is that this “danger signal” about threatening unconscious emotions can trigger a primarily emotional or psychological experience instead of a physical one. And I think this makes sense: a “danger signal” goes off and therefore we feel extreme fear and terror, right? With “agoraphobia” and “OCD”, it’s very similar, as this thinking or “behaviour” is also based on a sense of feeling unsafe. Now it’s important to mention again that, from a TMS understanding, the emotions setting off the "danger signal" are repressed and unconscious. So, while it's possible a limited amount of unconscious emotions are “breaking free” as fear and terror, we're unlikely to directly feel the emotions causing TMS/“protracted withdrawal”; instead, the emotions we feel are a product of the "danger signal.” This is especially the case when the fear and terror are kind of generalized and free-floating, coming and going, kind of on their own. This is a signal of something deeper going on emotionally but it’s so general that we’re often not really sure what. It's also possible, Sarno would say, that these emotional/psychological experiences could still serve as a "distraction." It depends on how we make sense of our powerful emotions: if we think something is wrong with us, that we’re damaged, or have a disorder, then we can become “preoccupied” with these emotional experiences and “learn” them; therefore, they can "distract" us from their deeper emotional source. In any case, whether the powerful emotions are a distraction or not, a TMS approach addresses them the same way. And that’s to reinforce to your unconscious mind that (1) there’s nothing wrong with you; (2) that powerful emotions come from a danger signal about specific things that took place in our lives and/or pressures we’ve learned to put on ourselves; and (3) to remind yourself that you’re now safe, that it’s safe to have emotions, to have compassion for yourself, and tell your unconscious mind that this feeling of terror or whatever free-floating powerful emotion is not necessary to feel. Regarding journaling, while not necessary for everyone, it can be a useful strategy to investigate what events or personality traits might be related to the emotions you’re feeling and reinforce to yourself that you’re now safe. If journaling is exacerbating a sense of “OCD”, it might be helpful to follow a structured TMS program. There, you will find more specific guides and time limits on writing and usually a TMS practitioner to ask more questions to as well. (I can link you to several options if you’re interested.) I’d also just say that a mindbody approach can take some time. Many people have resolved many syndromes with a TMS approach and Steven Ozanich-who’s helped many people-estimates it can take several months on average. It took me several months as well (I saw no improvement in the first month, and that’s when I did the bulk of my journaling). But what can be really helpful is regularly absorbing TMS materials, and finding books, videos, podcasts, etc. Education is a major part of the process. It can be tricky that so many TMS materials are geared toward pain, and not non-physical phenomena or “withdrawal.” But the psychological concepts are the same. You also might gain valuable information from contacting Steven Ozanich or Howard Schubiner; they’re more experienced than I am. Anyway, those are a few of my thoughts on that and I hope they are in some way useful to you.
@@gustavtms Hello, I thank you deeply for your generous reply! English is not my langage, so I am very grateful for your efforts to try to explain this approach and the possible ways of applying it to the emotional manifestations linked to withdrawal (and very grateful for the accessibility of your video and your speaking rythme😀). It is still complicated for me to understand how to apply this approach to my situation and the manifestations of my mind, and to understand whether I need to be able to distinguish between "learned" terror and possible unconscious emotions, or whether I need to find out what these unconscious emotions are. But that's probably because now it is time for me to read and listen to the many resources you've listed! Thanks also for the structured programs: I don't have the financial resources to work with the people you mentioned, but thanks to you website I found a structured program (Alan Gordon) on the TMS Wiki, and I came accross the "Curable" application which seems affordable and might help me with journaling. Time to get started!
@@youndou992 Hi, Yes, the resources you mentioned are great and they will hopefully clarify things for you! Best of luck getting started and feel free to comment again if there’s anything I can help with as well.
Hi. That’s a good question and sorry you’re experiencing that. I experienced something similar where I would feel okay for a while then wake up in the night in a panic and I also had (quite horrible) burning skin come and go as well. I can’t answer your question directly about yourself because there are a number of factors involved and I don’t want to make assumptions about your life. But I can provide a more general response that may be useful. In the video I compare chronic pain and protracted withdrawal to each other because I think there is a lot of overlap between them and chronic pain is easier to talk about because it’s better researched and understood than withdrawal. So for that reason I’ll use chronic pain again here to try to answer how withdrawal experiences can be learned so that you may feel good for weeks and then all the sudden you’re not.
So, in chronic pain, people are not necessarily in pain all the time, like how people in “withdrawal” aren’t necessarily in withdrawal all the time. Usually in chronic pain there is a starting point. Maybe it’s an injury. Maybe it’s just waking up one day with a sore neck and the person thinks they slept weird. In either case, if the person is concerned about the pain, the brain will receive the message that this is an important event happening and make a note of it, meaning that the pain will now exist as a memory in the brain. In other words, the pain is “learned.” Then maybe the “episode” of pain passes and everything seems fine. For weeks. For months. Then something happens, some trigger, and the pain returns. It’s remembered. This is often described as a “flare-up.” Then maybe things settle down for a while but the person may continue to cycle through periods of pain and no pain. This is very common in chronic pain. I think the same is true for “chronic” withdrawal. When we have withdrawal sensations from reducing or discontinuing a drug, if we’re concerned about them or generally stressed out about something at that time, the brain may get the message that the sensations we’re feeling are important and memorize them. The brain learns them. Then things may settle down again, maybe for weeks, then suddenly something triggers the memory of withdrawal to return and we feel the sensations again. Given the research on pain, and given my own experience with withdrawal, and what I’ve seen in others, I’d suggest that what triggers these memories of withdrawal is psychological stress. Sometimes that’s very apparent. In fact, on (very) rare occasions I still feel mild skin burning when I’m very stressed out. I take this as a message that I need to stop being so hard on myself (that’s one of my own primary sources of stress). But what also can trigger the memory of withdrawal are environmental triggers, whether that’s a place, a person, exercise, or the time of day (I used to get withdrawal sensations at 5pm for a few months). What can also make our experience with “withdrawal” seem so inconsistent is that our emotions are often unconscious and so it’s not clear why, for instance, we may awake in the morning feeling so badly. This is why in the video I discuss the importance of acknowledging unconscious emotions (and, if we can, the events in our lives that caused them) because they may be the primary source for remembering the withdrawal that our brains have learned. Generally among people in withdrawal communities, what you’re referring to is waves and windows, which maybe you're familiar with. I see it differently though as flare-up and flare-down cycles. If someone is getting an extended “window” for weeks, this suggests to me that the person is already healed from withdrawal. It’s just the memory of withdrawal that’s getting triggered. The way to stop triggering the memory is to let go of the idea of protracted withdrawal syndrome (drop the fear) and acknowledge its emotional basis (the source) and understand that we're now both physically and emotionally safe. This is what a mindbody approach is all about. I’d also note that it’s also possible that new sensations can pop up in “protracted withdrawal” as well. It’s not only old learned sensations. Our memory isn’t perfect after all. But this is sort of an adjacent topic.
Wow, great insight and explanation. Thank you Gustav for taking the time to respond so thoughtfully with well chosen words and thorough understanding of both protracted wd and TMS. So glad I found your channel.
Hi Gustav, I watched your entire video and I think it’s fantastic. If you are correct about this, it is revolutionary in this space, where the doctors that got us into this mess are of zero help. I’ve currently tapered about halfway off my antidepressant using hyperbolic liquid tapering, but I’ve been stuck at the same dose for over a year now, with a variety of symptoms seemingly getting worse. Perhaps most troubling are the new sexual symptoms (no libido, some ED, “muted” orgasms) that I never had while taking my full dose. Do you suspect this could be TMS? I know of PSSD and it’s terrifying, but I’ve often wondered if the issue isn’t in fact just “faulty” neural pathways as a result of taking medication with sexual side effects. The only thing is, why would these issues only begin when lowering the dose, in that case? Any insight is very much appreciated and I’d love to chat with you more.
Hi, The short answer is that I don’t know, but it’s certainly possible it could be TMS. Here’s a longer answer: I was also hyperbolically tapering drugs when I discovered this approach. Early on in my taper, it was clear that at least some of the adverse effects I was experiencing were the consequences of being on drugs and withdrawing from them. But that changed over time and after a while it wasn't easy to know if the sensations were consequences of the drugs at all. And as it so happened they no longer were--they were TMS--because the sensations disappeared once I applied this approach. I can also say that while I was tapering some TMS sensations shifted (and worsened) for me over time. This is one of the hallmarks of TMS. Sarno calls this the “symptom imperative” and it was one of his most important ideas. The unconscious mind can change the location of various sensations to ensure that the conscious mind remains really focused on the body to avoid deeper emotions. Even without this idea when the mind is really stressed out, new sensations can happen anyway because our emotions are so closely wired with the physical systems of the body. And if we have an idea of what we should be scared of, then these might be the sensations that the brain produces since the idea is already in our head. I can’t say what's happening for yourself. But based on my own experience this type of situation can be TMS.
@@gustavtms Thank you so much for your detailed response. That is extremely interesting about symptom imperative - it definitely lines up with things worsening over time that makes no sense to me, as I’ve held the dose. But, to your point, my stress and fear around the symptoms themselves has absolutely increased in reading more about them, so perhaps my body really has begun to “manifest” them. I would say that the sexual symptoms create more fear than anything, so it would make sense if they are, in fact, TMS. Do you have any good resources for how I can get started on applying methods to treat TMS?
Yes, I put together a list of resources here. unlearnwithdrawal.substack.com/p/resources My favourite presentation on this topic is by Howard Schubiner: ua-cam.com/video/0VyH1laOd2M/v-deo.html This whole thing is an educational process and there are now lots of TMS resources and programs available, each offering a bit of a different perspective.
@@gustavtms Thank you so much for this info, Gustav. You’re amazing for what you’re doing with this stuff and taking the time to help so many in need. I would love to keep in touch with you through this process.
Hello! I have been tapering off 2 Benzos for over 7 years. The reason it has taken so long is because I have such scary, terrifying symptoms on top of having severe health anxiety so I actually ended up in PTSD. When I first started tapering, I didn’t really know what was happening, so I was going to the emergency room every other day. It was long before I had any idea what withdrawal was. But my question is since I’m still tapering (I’m down to 1.3 mL of Valium) and I’m doing a low and slow taper, I’m still having withdrawal symptoms. Can I use TMS to reduce withdrawal symptoms that I have now even though I’m not finished with the taper. PS. I also have POTS aka dysautonomia, which I think is TMS . Thank you so much for your help.
Hi, I think I had been tapering for four or five years before I discovered this TMS approach. Even though I was tapering really slowly I was still dealing with waves and all these weird and scary sensations. But I once I learned more about this approach and worked on it the withdrawal sensations went away. And this happened while I was still tapering. For the remainder of the taper I had no withdrawal sensations and I eventually stopped the drugs without any problem. So, yes, in my experience it’s possible to use this TMS approach while tapering. Basically for me it turned out the “withdrawal” wasn’t coming from the taper, but it was a learned response. At least part of it came from my overwhelming fear of the drugs and tapering. I think this sent a danger signal to my mind and reinforced these sensations that I basically expected to get. But once I got into TMS and I applied this approach and the sensations went away I lost my fear of the drugs completely and I knew I’d be okay. I previously experienced much “health anxiety” in my life as well, as have many people who resonate with the concept of TMS. And, yeah, POTS can be TMS. If you type in POTS and TMS on YoTube I know Dan from Pain Free You and Rebecca Tolin have success stories on their channels about this.
@@gustavtms - Thank you so much! Do you think it’s necessary to have a TMS coach to do this? If so, do you have a list of coaches? And are you a TMS coach? 💗
Hi, from what I can tell most people who resolve the various forms of TMS do not have coaches. But there are of course some people who benefit from that. I had a consult with someone once and it was helpful but not necessary. I also took a TMS course which I found helpful as it gave me some structure, but the course I took I don’t think exists anymore. There are others courses but the prices have really gone up. The course I took though is basically contained in the book Unlearn Your Pain by Howard Schubiner, which was applicable for protracted withdrawal for myself as well. Anyway TMSWiki has a list practitioners here but I can’t attest to their quality of course : www.tmswiki.org/ppd/Find_a_TMS_Doctor_or_Therapist. I don’t do any coaching, no. There are a bunch of TMS people with UA-cam channels that do though.
@@gustavtms - Thank you so much for taking time to respond to my questions. I am going to continue learning more about how I can use TMS principles to no longer have protracted withdrawal and POTS. IT seems my limbic system is doubling down on the fear and symptoms since I started trying to go about my life in spite of the symptoms and sensations that I am having. For instance, since I started getting out of my bed in the morning and walking a little bit outsideinstead of staying on my bed all day (since standing and walking around induced extreme breathlessness & feeling dizzy), I have now started to have panic attacks and episodes of freeze, unable to talk or move. It’s very scary. I feel like I’m having a nervous breakdown. 😬
I'm sorry to hear that. I had stuff that like that too and it is very scary. Sarno talks about first gaining more knowledge about TMS and working toward accepting it toward one's situation before moving around more. As he says in Healing Back Pain, "To start prematurely only means that they will probably induce pain, frighten themselves . . ." At the same time Sarno also says it's not uncommon for the mind to fight back when it starts to get challenged. Sarno also talked about how he thought it was more helpful to think psychologically than physically (like the limbic system). I actually just uploaded Sarno's audiobook Healing Back Pain. It might be of interest to you.
Hi, again! I think I already told you this,but I forget- I have POTS, which is considered dysautonomia. Neural retraining programs can help get rid of POTS. Do you know if TMS protocol can also stop POTS?
Yes POTS can be resolved with a TMS approach. If you type in POTS and TMS on UA-cam you get people talking about it and success stories. In particular Dan from the channel Pain Free You talks about this and Rebecca Tolin from her channel as well.
@@gustavtms - thank you! I wish more people thought that protracted withdrawal was TMS. I’ve been searching for other people who believe that it is, and I haven’t found anyone. I have Steve O’s book, but I don’t see anything in it about benzo withdrawal. I think you said he did. Can you tell me what he said about it? . By the way, I did email Dr. Schubiner, as you suggested. Thank you again! I’m going to keep listening to your UA-cam so I can keep hearing you say that protracted withdrawal is TMS. Do you have any other things online about it? 😊
Hi, I know a bunch of people who think protracted withdrawal is TMS. And I’ve communicated with some of them who have resolved protracted withdrawal with this approach. But as you mention, there are few materials out there specifically on protracted withdrawal and TMS together -- almost none -- which makes it difficult for people to find out about. This is probably in part because protracted withdrawal is such a little known thing compared to chronic pain, fibro, chronic fatigue, Long COVID - all household names. Everyone knows about them. Also the whole topic of psychiatric drug withdrawal is taboo anyway, and I think something people are scared to talk about. So this information just hasn’t reached withdrawal communities, among other reasons as well. I spoke to Steve O once years ago. He was the only consult I ever had. He’s actually the first person to suggest to me that protracted withdrawal is TMS and that he’s helped people to resolve it via his consults. I didn’t even know what to make of that. I sort of had an open mind but I don’t think I really believed him. It went against what I'd read about in the withdrawal forums and groups. It wasn’t until I got into the approach and the withdrawal sensations went away that I realized it could be true. I don’t remember if Steve mentions it any of his books. I don’t think he does. Here is an interesting thread from TMSwiki on someone who resolved protracted withdrawal sensations, among other things: www.tmswiki.org/forum/threads/i-was-going-to-post-a-success-story-on-an-anti-depressant-withdrawal-forum.20225/
Hi. Speaking very generally as I’m not qualified to answer such a question, drugs and supplements can cause adverse effects but if the reactions seem out of proportion then it might be TMS. If someone is afraid of taking a substance, whether consciously or unconsciously, this could this send send a danger signal to the mind and cause an adverse reaction of some kind. Yes, the approach to resolve this is basically the same. While this isn’t exactly what you’re talking about I developed an intolerance toward certain foods, which resolved alongside the other protracted sensations. Here is a video about a guy who resolved histamine intolerance using a TMS approach: ua-cam.com/video/TSnSYeTpHLM/v-deo.html
I’ve had PSSD for almost two years now. Do you think it could also be TMS? Unfortunately, the PSSD ‘community’ is extremely toxic and they would never accept anything resembling TMS as the root cause. However, I think it could be TMS now.
Hi, this isn't something I personally experienced and I'm usually not comfortable talking outside my own experience. But you may wish to contact Steve Ozanich or maybe the Psychophysiologic "Disorders" Association. It's possible that they could provide you with a better answer than I can. Also, if you think it might be TMS, you could research TMS more and see how it resonates with you.
@@gustavtms PSSD is basically pretty similar to post-withdrawal issues from SSRIs, which also usually involves sexual issues as well, but can cause a large amount of symptoms. There’s no real biomarkers that have been found for it either. If PAWS is TMS, PSSD probably is too, and I know a guy who thinks it is due to TMS. I’ve tried huge detoxes for it as well, with no luck. It could be TMS, most biological treatments I have done have been complete dead-ends, with no improvement nor reaction to them at all, as if I have no true biological problem to begin with. There’s also a connection between PSSD and PGAD as well (I don’t have PGAD, but I’ve heard of people having both), and also POIS too, and I know PGAD can be caused by TMS. I think some of my symptoms also were worsened when I found out about PSSD, so there is that correlation too. I started having some symptoms right when I stopped the drugs, but some appeared to only occur when I first read about it being a real thing. Honestly, the main difference between PAWS (protracted withdrawal) and PSSD seems to be that PSSD always additionally involves sexual symptoms, which do not appear so much in ‘regular’ PAWS. However, basically all other non-sexual symptoms also occur frequently in PAWS, and also Long Covid.
Yes, what you’re saying makes a ton of sense to me. I hope you do pursue a TMS approach-and based on what you’ve written I’d say you’ve already started.
@@gustavtms I’ve tried a lot of things. I’m currently also taking chlorine dioxide, with no improvements and almost no die-off from it, which to me, is a big indicator that I do not have a lot of toxic overload that would result in these symptoms, if it was truly biological. I still plan on using CD, but I want to add TMS work to my ‘protocol’ as well, to cover both sides of it. Interestingly enough, I had ECT around a year ago, and it did improve some of my symptoms, but most symptoms did not improve. If this is TMS, could ECT potentially be a fix for that as well (ftr, I’m not interested in ECT any longer, but was always curious how it led to certain symptom improvements for me)? I’ve also been told to look into the cell danger response. Does that form a part of TMS, to your knowledge? If my issues are indeed TMS, how long would recovery normally take? A few months of consistently doing the work for it, or could it take a year or longer? I’m obsessed with time. I’ve already lost nearly two years to this, and even after this is gone, I still need to rebuild my life, that was basically ruined by this happening to me. I have probably 65-75% of the symptoms you mentioned in the video btw. However, I also have probably 10 additional symptoms that are sexual in origin, as well as memory issues (mainly short-term), and I also exhibit a lack of response to many drugs, such as psychedelics and cannabis, that I believe worked before all of this happened (this also happens frequently in Long Covid and MECFS patients, who I think also might have TMS). Within the last 6 months, I also have started losing some hair, and I also developed bad GERD / acid reflux, out of almost nowhere. I also have akathisia, mainly when standing, and in my case, it also correlates with neuropathic-like tingling in my legs and feet. The akathisia doesn’t affect me much when sitting or lying down. So yes, quite a bit of overlap with your TMS story. I’ve been to many doctors (I hate doctors, but I’ve seen many nonetheless, and they’ve done nothing for me), and nothing biologically wrong has ever really came back. I had a lumbar puncture and multiple MRIs as well. To my knowledge, nothing abnormal was ever found. Upon further examination, I believe all of the symptoms I present with may occur in the fight/freeze response, and I believe fight/freeze is the state of the parasympathetic nervous system that is most often the cause of TMS? Even certain other symptoms I have, such as a lack of eye contact following the onset, seem to be associated with the fight/freeze response.
Hi. I broke down what you said into several questions so hopefully my attempt at answers is organized. These are only my own views, of course, informed by what I personally understand about TMS. If this is TMS, could ECT potentially be a fix for that as well? No, ECT cannot resolve TMS-at least not in the long term. Linda Andre (who had ECT) wrote a book, Doctors of Deception, and basically said that when the brain/body is recovering from a grand mal seizure, you’re less likely to focus on other sensations/lack of sensations that might have been experienced beforehand. It also could be a placebo response as well. But ECT also does not address anything emotional, which is at the heart of TMS. I’ve also been told to look into the cell danger response. Does that form a part of TMS, to your knowledge? I haven’t heard of this before. Generally, once physical/structural causes are ruled out, a TMS approach involves looking at the situation emotionally. From a TMS perspective continuing to research various physiological theories about what could be wrong only increases the sense of danger and keeps the mind on high alert. This can keep the "withdrawal" situation going and be a distraction from acknowledging the underlying emotions. If my issues are indeed TMS, how long would recovery normally take? It took me five months but everyone is different. Some are shorter, others longer. One thing I had to realize was that I had already recovered (though I felt sick), and it was just a matter of me understanding that. However, an obsession with time can make things take longer. It’s the same as researching physiological theories, it just creates more stress and a sense of danger. But I know it’s hard to stop thinking about these things. What generally happens in a TMS approach is that through deeper learning a shift takes place in the unconscious mind that can change one’s conscious perspective-this makes it easier and feel more natural to begin to shift away from this type of thinking. I believe fight/freeze is the state of the parasympathetic nervous system that is most often the cause of TMS? I’ve heard it conceptualized in a few different ways, including like this and learned brain pathways. Whatever the case it’s about calming that sense of inner danger and knowing that nothing is physically wrong with you and that you’re emotionally safe from whatever else might be setting off a danger signal. It's possible that taking drugs or CD may signal to the brain that you still believe that something is physically wrong. This could be a hindrance to a TMS approach. You may wish to read one of Sarno’s books as they might provide a better outline for this type of approach. MindBody Mastery by Kaitlin Michaels is a favourite podcast of mine. Steve Ozanich also had a wide variety of “symptoms” as well, his story may be of interest to you. And, yes, there are people with both Long Covid and MECFS who have resolved these experiences completely with a TMS or other neuroplastic approaches.
Hi Gustav, would you agree with the idea that TMS symptoms can be removed solely through learning safety (i.e. brain retraining), but to prevent their reoccurance in the future requires the deeper work on altering past negative beliefs which themselves generate negative emotions?
Hi Jacob, that’s an interesting question. I think it may vary from person to person but I’d put it this way for myself. In the video I talk about two “withdrawal” experiences. The first came from an adverse reaction to a drug. That reaction came in waves and lasted for months. I basically thought I was dying or really sick. After I had a bunch of tests done and I realized I was totally healthy, I accepted that these waves were produced by “stress” (although I had no idea where the stress was from) and the next time I felt a wave, I reminded myself that I’m healthy and the wave just stopped. I don’t know if this is brain retraining, I’m not very familiar with the particulars of that, but that’s what happened in my situation: I halted the danger signals and the sensations stopped. How often someone would be able to stop withdrawal sensations in a similar way, I don’t know. But that might be an example of a story about “altering past negative beliefs” (I’m dying, I’m sick) which in themselves can “generate negative emotions” (fear, terror). While that is very important for me going deeper means something else. Sarno talks about something called the symptom imperative, meaning that TMS sensations can change (or recur) over time until the underlying emotions responsible for the danger signals are addressed. So, in my situation, given that I remained clueless about my psychological stress, I would go on to experience various TMS manifestations including my second protracted withdrawal experience and chronic pain. What I needed to do was acknowledge the deeper emotional pain going on inside me. That’s what found in research on neuroplastic syndromes, especially in chronic pain, that it’s an emotional “injury.” There’s just an enormous amount of emotional tension inside. I don’t know if this can always be thought away by altering one’s thinking. That might be too cerebral. At least it was for me. It’s about emotions. It’s like when you have something you have to get off your chest really badly and it’s eating you alive and you finally say what you need to say to someone and they accept it and all of the sudden you feel calmer inside. It’s like this except the unconscious mind is really upset - you need to acknowledge that something inside you is upset and listen to that, accept that, and tell yourself that you’re emotionally safe now to stop the danger signals. That’s what returns the calm. To me it’s about linking the emotional upset to the sensations and telling the mind that the sensations are no longer necessary because the danger is over. There are techniques developed to do this, but it ultimately comes from the self. Anyway that’s a bit longwinded but that’s what came to my mind from your question and it's my own understanding that helped me. Hopefully it makes some sense.
Hi, it's Fear of Fear by Rainer Werner Fassbinder. I use the film somewhat out of context -- it's not really about withdrawal -- but it's still a great film.
Hi, the primary film I use is Fear of Fear (1975) by Rainer Werner Fassbinder. In the UA-cam video I change some of the film’s context/dialogue. It’s not really about withdrawal but I still related to it when I first watched it years ago. Another film that is similar is Safe (1995) by Todd Haynes. Also, The Secret Garden (1993) by Agnieszka Holland and The River (1997) by Tsai Ming-liang (the last one is very dark). I would interpret parts of all those films from a mindbody perspective. I’m sure there are more but that’s all I can think of at the moment.
Where can i buy a copy or watch online The River. It looks very interesting. Also if you think of more movies please let me know. Watching these types of movies helps me understand the concept. Bad Milo, Augustine and The Singing Detective are all good movie Mind Body movies. You might like them.@@gustavtms
I watched The River yesterday. Seems like the moral was about sexual incest and empty lives causing mindbody neck pains. There is another movie called Days made by the same guy and has same theme of lonliness and neck pain. Is that a mindbody movie as well? Also i just caught a cold two days ago and feel worse. Every time i get a cold i feel worse for many weeks afterwards. Did you notice this as well when you dealt with mindbody withdrawals? Its like my body can not recover from anything@@gustavtms
@@BigBadMF43 Hi, I have yet to see Days so I’m not quite sure what it’s all about. Unfortunately many mindbody movies don’t have positive resolutions otherwise they could be so instructive. Often they leave it up to interpretation for artistic purposes. When I thought I was in “withdrawal” I rarely got sick because I rarely went out. I did get the flu once and it definitely heightened the “withdrawal” sensations I was feeling at the time. But, personally, I had to stop thinking things about my bodily sensations, stop caring about them, and shift my attention to the psychological reasons for why my body was feeling the way it was. I remember when I was limping once from mindbody leg pain and someone asked me if I hurt my leg and I responded, no someone hurt my feelings. It’s this shift in perspective that was particularly helpful for me. As Sarno said, “As long as he is in any way concerned about what his body is doing, the symptoms will continue.”
@@gustavtmsok I understand the concept but this sounds to me like you’re ignoring symptoms, you’re not healed. Ignoring symptoms can be helpful, not dwelling is helpful, it removes a certain weight. But the symptoms are still there day after day. So my question is, because it really is not clear in this video: did you actually heal? Ps: I randomly saw Safe and loved it, indeed made me think of my own condition in a way- except I don’t doubt that my symptoms are real and not psychosomatic.
It would be awesome if you could make a really long video of brainwashing that someone is healed and safe like they never went through this their body is safe. They are healthy and healed. Nothing is wrong with them.
Your video helped me to resolve my protracted withdrawal syndrome after 2.5years. I can not say how thankful I am!
That’s wonderful! Thank you so much for sharing this. It means a lot and it will be encouraging for people to see!
I also wandered into TMS as a way to help me through my withdrawal from an SSRI and a benzo. Making the connection of coming off the drugs, starting to feel emotions again, and the brain protecting me from these powerful feelings with symptoms, well that was just a moment of REVELATION that I will never forget. Thank you for your video!
Thanks that's a really interesting way to put it. I've now heard from a bunch of people who came across TMS when trying to figure out withdrawal. It's been a revelation for many of us. Thanks for sharing!
I watched every single second of this amazing video and just couldn't relate more to the idea of TMS and how it prolongs the horrible sensations of the already healed WD in us. Actually the brain is doing its best to protect us from experiencing more painful and excruciating buried and repressed emotional burdens and thus it's definitely a defensive mechanism. It's not until you assure the unconscious mind that you're safe and ready to befriend and accept those repressed feelings that the brain lets go of its grip on the WD simulation in its attempt to help us. Repetition, Journaling and constantly reminding the unconscious brain of the fact that we're healthy, safe, passionate and ready to experience the sweet and pleasant side of the world through our perception are crucially important in experiencing this life-altering and beautiful shift. Thanks a million for your invaluable video and your soothing and lovely tone of voice. Wish you the best of all this world could give. ⚘️🌹🌷✌️
That’s a great summary and such kind things to say! I, too, identify so much to TMS, The Mindbody Syndrome. It changed my entire life, not only saving me from protracted withdrawal, but I still use TMS ideas in my daily life when I feel any odd thing and I don’t know why. It’s made me so much less scared of myself. I wish you all the best as well!
I just now watched this video. I really like your comment. I’m curious, how are you doing now? I’ve been stuck in FFF for 7 years, still trying to taper off Valium and having so many debilitating symptoms that I often become unable to move on, and I even have to updose so I can function and not admit myself to the psych ward. I am a believe of TMS, and I have healed severe back pain using Sarno’s TMS. I started wondering that benzo withdrawal that takes years might be TmS. Do you know if I can start working on the TMS theory even thought I’m still tapering? I hope I will hear from you. 🙏🏼
This entire presentation resonates with me completely.
Very well put together and brilliantly explained.
Thank you. That's kind of you to say.
This gives me a lot of hope. Thank you.
This is brilliant, I am joining the forums and see what I can learn!
This is great. I am just getting started watching it. I am just now using mind body practices for some lingering protracted symptoms and it’s helping so much. I truly believe in this.
Thanks. I see you’ve also made some videos about using mindbody approaches! It’s great that more people will find out about this sort of thing and maybe it'll resonate with them as well. I wish you continued success!
Brilliant video and so well presented. Thank you!
You're very welcome.
Gustav great job in this video.
I had some TMS related issues in the past that I was able to resolve.
lately I’ve been having caffeine withdrawal symptoms after stopping coffee for way too long that now I’m sure it is TMS again.
Thanks.
Very good video and explanation. Most people recover from benzo withdrawal in 18-24 months so time beyond that could very well be TMS which I have not seen discussed in the most popular Benzo forum. Makes a lot of sense but I think there will be a good deal of resistance to the idea, but then there is still huge resistance to TMS even with back pain. Keep up the good work!
Hi, thanks. I’ve seen people talk about having success with this or similar approaches on the Benzo forum and a few other places but it’s on the periphery. Some people are receptive but, yes, there’s often resistance as the “it’s always a neurobiological injury” model is so dominant.
@@gustavtms Hi, well it certainly is a neuro injury to start with but I think the various benzo sites and coaches are missing a trick if they don't consider TMS for protracted withdrawal. Maybe it all depends on why people took benzos to begin with. Mine was for chronic head and neck pain and that is where I am experiencing the worst symptoms now, way worse than they were to begin with thanks to modern medicine! Anyway my favourite channel for TMS is Jim Prussack, the PainPT, especially his playlist of Somatic Practices. Very soothing voice which is a big help and doesn't race through the information. This is also why I like your delivery, nice and slow. Thanks
@@gustavtms Hi, well it certainly is a neuro injury but I think the benzo sites and coaches are missing a trick if they do not consider TMS when it comes to protracted ie. more than 2 years. Anyway my favourite TMS channel is Jim Prussack, The PainPT especially his Somatic Tracking playlist in case you don't know him. Very soothing voice with nice slow delivery, unlike some who race through the information! Your presentation is also slow and calm, exactly the right pace for learning something new. Thanks
Yes, I read by something by Jim a while back. I forgot he had a UA-cam channel. I like it! Thanks for mentioning it.
Dear Gustav. Thank you for the video. Would a general TMS therapist be sufficient for treating protracted withdrawal signals, or is it essential to find a TMS specialist with knowledge about the protracted withdrawal syndrome?
Hi, I don’t think a specialist TMS therapist is needed because the psychological basis of TMS is essentially the same whether it’s chronic pain or protracted withdrawal or whatnot. At the same time it's possible that a particular TMS therapist might not have heard of protracted withdrawal so you could always send prospective therapists emails and explain your situation and go from there.
think I have the most severe mental symptoms since I read many people stories. I have extremely severe intrusive racing thoughts. Severe flasback thoughts and images from childhood memories till now. Weird feeling. Hyper sensitive to every thought and sensation. Hyperawarness. Combined with severe depression and derealization and 24/7 hypersalivation with panick and cognitive impairment, brain fog attacks, I feel like I am the strongest person in the planet
Do not take benzodiazepines, SSRIS or medication period, if you’re able to avoid them. If not, then I pray that you experience no side effects!
Hello! Thank you deeply for taking the time to make this very interesting video!
After watching it, I have started to read about this, but I have some difficulties to apply it to withdrawal. In my situation, the main symptoms of my "prolonged withdrawal syndrome" is powerful emotions: extreme fear, adrenaline, sheer terror, anger, agoraphobia, OCD... (I didn't have these symptoms before, I was put on antidepressant for "depression", not anxiety).
So I don't have physical symptoms that "distract" me from emotionnal symptoms.
I have tried journaling, but I might be doing it wrong because it seems to reinforce my "OCD" that appears with withdrawal.
If you agree and feel comfortable to do so, I would love to read your thoughts about how to apply this mindbody approach to withdrawal symptoms that are emotional and not physical!
Hi! I’m sorry to hear you’re feeling these powerful, frightening emotions. When I experienced “protracted withdrawal”, I had waves of extreme fear, terror, and anger and it was beyond awful. So your question of how to apply this mindbody approach to emotional aspects of “withdrawal” is a really relevant one and something I relate to. I can share some of my own thoughts on this.
The most prominent understanding of TMS, and what’s shown in research, is that powerful unconscious emotions can activate a sort of “danger signal” in the brain. And because our emotional and physiological experiences overlap in the brain, this danger signal can trigger horrible physical discomfort. If someone gets “preoccupied” with this discomfort, it can be “learned” and ultimately “distract” a person from their deeper emotional suffering.
But what's talked about less, and perhaps more relevant to yourself, is that this “danger signal” about threatening unconscious emotions can trigger a primarily emotional or psychological experience instead of a physical one. And I think this makes sense: a “danger signal” goes off and therefore we feel extreme fear and terror, right? With “agoraphobia” and “OCD”, it’s very similar, as this thinking or “behaviour” is also based on a sense of feeling unsafe.
Now it’s important to mention again that, from a TMS understanding, the emotions setting off the "danger signal" are repressed and unconscious. So, while it's possible a limited amount of unconscious emotions are “breaking free” as fear and terror, we're unlikely to directly feel the emotions causing TMS/“protracted withdrawal”; instead, the emotions we feel are a product of the "danger signal.” This is especially the case when the fear and terror are kind of generalized and free-floating, coming and going, kind of on their own. This is a signal of something deeper going on emotionally but it’s so general that we’re often not really sure what. It's also possible, Sarno would say, that these emotional/psychological experiences could still serve as a "distraction." It depends on how we make sense of our powerful emotions: if we think something is wrong with us, that we’re damaged, or have a disorder, then we can become “preoccupied” with these emotional experiences and “learn” them; therefore, they can "distract" us from their deeper emotional source.
In any case, whether the powerful emotions are a distraction or not, a TMS approach addresses them the same way. And that’s to reinforce to your unconscious mind that (1) there’s nothing wrong with you; (2) that powerful emotions come from a danger signal about specific things that took place in our lives and/or pressures we’ve learned to put on ourselves; and (3) to remind yourself that you’re now safe, that it’s safe to have emotions, to have compassion for yourself, and tell your unconscious mind that this feeling of terror or whatever free-floating powerful emotion is not necessary to feel.
Regarding journaling, while not necessary for everyone, it can be a useful strategy to investigate what events or personality traits might be related to the emotions you’re feeling and reinforce to yourself that you’re now safe. If journaling is exacerbating a sense of “OCD”, it might be helpful to follow a structured TMS program. There, you will find more specific guides and time limits on writing and usually a TMS practitioner to ask more questions to as well. (I can link you to several options if you’re interested.)
I’d also just say that a mindbody approach can take some time. Many people have resolved many syndromes with a TMS approach and Steven Ozanich-who’s helped many people-estimates it can take several months on average. It took me several months as well (I saw no improvement in the first month, and that’s when I did the bulk of my journaling). But what can be really helpful is regularly absorbing TMS materials, and finding books, videos, podcasts, etc. Education is a major part of the process. It can be tricky that so many TMS materials are geared toward pain, and not non-physical phenomena or “withdrawal.” But the psychological concepts are the same. You also might gain valuable information from contacting Steven Ozanich or Howard Schubiner; they’re more experienced than I am.
Anyway, those are a few of my thoughts on that and I hope they are in some way useful to you.
@@gustavtms Hello,
I thank you deeply for your generous reply!
English is not my langage, so I am very grateful for your efforts to try to explain this approach and the possible ways of applying it to the emotional manifestations linked to withdrawal (and very grateful for the accessibility of your video and your speaking rythme😀).
It is still complicated for me to understand how to apply this approach to my situation and the manifestations of my mind, and to understand whether I need to be able to distinguish between "learned" terror and possible unconscious emotions, or whether I need to find out what these unconscious emotions are.
But that's probably because now it is time for me to read and listen to the many resources you've listed!
Thanks also for the structured programs: I don't have the financial resources to work with the people you mentioned, but thanks to you website I found a structured program (Alan Gordon) on the TMS Wiki, and I came accross the "Curable" application which seems affordable and might help me with journaling.
Time to get started!
@@youndou992 Hi,
Yes, the resources you mentioned are great and they will hopefully clarify things for you!
Best of luck getting started and feel free to comment again if there’s anything I can help with as well.
How is this learned? Iv had weeks where i feel good and then wake up and my head feels like i got over the head with a bad, burning skin ect.
Hi. That’s a good question and sorry you’re experiencing that. I experienced something similar where I would feel okay for a while then wake up in the night in a panic and I also had (quite horrible) burning skin come and go as well.
I can’t answer your question directly about yourself because there are a number of factors involved and I don’t want to make assumptions about your life. But I can provide a more general response that may be useful.
In the video I compare chronic pain and protracted withdrawal to each other because I think there is a lot of overlap between them and chronic pain is easier to talk about because it’s better researched and understood than withdrawal. So for that reason I’ll use chronic pain again here to try to answer how withdrawal experiences can be learned so that you may feel good for weeks and then all the sudden you’re not.
So, in chronic pain, people are not necessarily in pain all the time, like how people in “withdrawal” aren’t necessarily in withdrawal all the time. Usually in chronic pain there is a starting point. Maybe it’s an injury. Maybe it’s just waking up one day with a sore neck and the person thinks they slept weird. In either case, if the person is concerned about the pain, the brain will receive the message that this is an important event happening and make a note of it, meaning that the pain will now exist as a memory in the brain. In other words, the pain is “learned.” Then maybe the “episode” of pain passes and everything seems fine. For weeks. For months. Then something happens, some trigger, and the pain returns. It’s remembered. This is often described as a “flare-up.” Then maybe things settle down for a while but the person may continue to cycle through periods of pain and no pain. This is very common in chronic pain.
I think the same is true for “chronic” withdrawal. When we have withdrawal sensations from reducing or discontinuing a drug, if we’re concerned about them or generally stressed out about something at that time, the brain may get the message that the sensations we’re feeling are important and memorize them. The brain learns them. Then things may settle down again, maybe for weeks, then suddenly something triggers the memory of withdrawal to return and we feel the sensations again.
Given the research on pain, and given my own experience with withdrawal, and what I’ve seen in others, I’d suggest that what triggers these memories of withdrawal is psychological stress. Sometimes that’s very apparent. In fact, on (very) rare occasions I still feel mild skin burning when I’m very stressed out. I take this as a message that I need to stop being so hard on myself (that’s one of my own primary sources of stress). But what also can trigger the memory of withdrawal are environmental triggers, whether that’s a place, a person, exercise, or the time of day (I used to get withdrawal sensations at 5pm for a few months).
What can also make our experience with “withdrawal” seem so inconsistent is that our emotions are often unconscious and so it’s not clear why, for instance, we may awake in the morning feeling so badly. This is why in the video I discuss the importance of acknowledging unconscious emotions (and, if we can, the events in our lives that caused them) because they may be the primary source for remembering the withdrawal that our brains have learned.
Generally among people in withdrawal communities, what you’re referring to is waves and windows, which maybe you're familiar with. I see it differently though as flare-up and flare-down cycles. If someone is getting an extended “window” for weeks, this suggests to me that the person is already healed from withdrawal. It’s just the memory of withdrawal that’s getting triggered. The way to stop triggering the memory is to let go of the idea of protracted withdrawal syndrome (drop the fear) and acknowledge its emotional basis (the source) and understand that we're now both physically and emotionally safe. This is what a mindbody approach is all about.
I’d also note that it’s also possible that new sensations can pop up in “protracted withdrawal” as well. It’s not only old learned sensations. Our memory isn’t perfect after all. But this is sort of an adjacent topic.
Wow, great insight and explanation. Thank you Gustav for taking the time to respond so thoughtfully with well chosen words and thorough understanding of both protracted wd and TMS. So glad I found your channel.
Hi Gustav, I watched your entire video and I think it’s fantastic. If you are correct about this, it is revolutionary in this space, where the doctors that got us into this mess are of zero help.
I’ve currently tapered about halfway off my antidepressant using hyperbolic liquid tapering, but I’ve been stuck at the same dose for over a year now, with a variety of symptoms seemingly getting worse.
Perhaps most troubling are the new sexual symptoms (no libido, some ED, “muted” orgasms) that I never had while taking my full dose.
Do you suspect this could be TMS? I know of PSSD and it’s terrifying, but I’ve often wondered if the issue isn’t in fact just “faulty” neural pathways as a result of taking medication with sexual side effects. The only thing is, why would these issues only begin when lowering the dose, in that case?
Any insight is very much appreciated and I’d love to chat with you more.
Hi,
The short answer is that I don’t know, but it’s certainly possible it could be TMS.
Here’s a longer answer: I was also hyperbolically tapering drugs when I discovered this approach. Early on in my taper, it was clear that at least some of the adverse effects I was experiencing were the consequences of being on drugs and withdrawing from them. But that changed over time and after a while it wasn't easy to know if the sensations were consequences of the drugs at all. And as it so happened they no longer were--they were TMS--because the sensations disappeared once I applied this approach.
I can also say that while I was tapering some TMS sensations shifted (and worsened) for me over time. This is one of the hallmarks of TMS. Sarno calls this the “symptom imperative” and it was one of his most important ideas. The unconscious mind can change the location of various sensations to ensure that the conscious mind remains really focused on the body to avoid deeper emotions. Even without this idea when the mind is really stressed out, new sensations can happen anyway because our emotions are so closely wired with the physical systems of the body. And if we have an idea of what we should be scared of, then these might be the sensations that the brain produces since the idea is already in our head.
I can’t say what's happening for yourself. But based on my own experience this type of situation can be TMS.
@@gustavtms Thank you so much for your detailed response. That is extremely interesting about symptom imperative - it definitely lines up with things worsening over time that makes no sense to me, as I’ve held the dose. But, to your point, my stress and fear around the symptoms themselves has absolutely increased in reading more about them, so perhaps my body really has begun to “manifest” them. I would say that the sexual symptoms create more fear than anything, so it would make sense if they are, in fact, TMS.
Do you have any good resources for how I can get started on applying methods to treat TMS?
Yes, I put together a list of resources here.
unlearnwithdrawal.substack.com/p/resources
My favourite presentation on this topic is by Howard Schubiner: ua-cam.com/video/0VyH1laOd2M/v-deo.html
This whole thing is an educational process and there are now lots of TMS resources and programs available, each offering a bit of a different perspective.
@@gustavtms Thank you so much for this info, Gustav. You’re amazing for what you’re doing with this stuff and taking the time to help so many in need. I would love to keep in touch with you through this process.
You're welcome. You can keep commenting here or I have an email address listed in the description on my channel page.
Hello! I have been tapering off 2 Benzos for over 7 years. The reason it has taken so long is because I have such scary, terrifying symptoms on top of having severe health anxiety so I actually ended up in PTSD. When I first started tapering, I didn’t really know what was happening, so I was going to the emergency room every other day. It was long before I had any idea what withdrawal was. But my question is since I’m still tapering (I’m down to 1.3 mL of Valium) and I’m doing a low and slow taper, I’m still having withdrawal symptoms. Can I use TMS to reduce withdrawal symptoms that I have now even though I’m not finished with the taper. PS. I also have POTS aka dysautonomia, which I think is TMS . Thank you so much for your help.
Hi, I think I had been tapering for four or five years before I discovered this TMS approach. Even though I was tapering really slowly I was still dealing with waves and all these weird and scary sensations. But I once I learned more about this approach and worked on it the withdrawal sensations went away. And this happened while I was still tapering. For the remainder of the taper I had no withdrawal sensations and I eventually stopped the drugs without any problem. So, yes, in my experience it’s possible to use this TMS approach while tapering.
Basically for me it turned out the “withdrawal” wasn’t coming from the taper, but it was a learned response. At least part of it came from my overwhelming fear of the drugs and tapering. I think this sent a danger signal to my mind and reinforced these sensations that I basically expected to get. But once I got into TMS and I applied this approach and the sensations went away I lost my fear of the drugs completely and I knew I’d be okay.
I previously experienced much “health anxiety” in my life as well, as have many people who resonate with the concept of TMS. And, yeah, POTS can be TMS. If you type in POTS and TMS on YoTube I know Dan from Pain Free You and Rebecca Tolin have success stories on their channels about this.
@@gustavtms - Thank you so much! Do you think it’s necessary to have a TMS coach to do this? If so, do you have a list of coaches? And are you a TMS coach? 💗
Hi, from what I can tell most people who resolve the various forms of TMS do not have coaches. But there are of course some people who benefit from that. I had a consult with someone once and it was helpful but not necessary. I also took a TMS course which I found helpful as it gave me some structure, but the course I took I don’t think exists anymore. There are others courses but the prices have really gone up. The course I took though is basically contained in the book Unlearn Your Pain by Howard Schubiner, which was applicable for protracted withdrawal for myself as well.
Anyway TMSWiki has a list practitioners here but I can’t attest to their quality of course : www.tmswiki.org/ppd/Find_a_TMS_Doctor_or_Therapist. I don’t do any coaching, no. There are a bunch of TMS people with UA-cam channels that do though.
@@gustavtms - Thank you so much for taking time to respond to my questions. I am going to continue learning more about how I can use TMS principles to no longer have protracted withdrawal and POTS. IT seems my limbic system is doubling down on the fear and symptoms since I started trying to go about my life in spite of the symptoms and sensations that I am having. For instance, since I started getting out of my bed in the morning and walking a little bit outsideinstead of staying on my bed all day (since standing and walking around induced extreme breathlessness & feeling dizzy), I have now started to have panic attacks and episodes of freeze, unable to talk or move. It’s very scary. I feel like I’m having a nervous breakdown. 😬
I'm sorry to hear that. I had stuff that like that too and it is very scary. Sarno talks about first gaining more knowledge about TMS and working toward accepting it toward one's situation before moving around more. As he says in Healing Back Pain, "To start prematurely only means that they will probably induce pain, frighten themselves . . ." At the same time Sarno also says it's not uncommon for the mind to fight back when it starts to get challenged.
Sarno also talked about how he thought it was more helpful to think psychologically than physically (like the limbic system). I actually just uploaded Sarno's audiobook Healing Back Pain. It might be of interest to you.
Hi, again! I think I already told you this,but I forget- I have POTS, which is considered dysautonomia. Neural retraining programs can help get rid of POTS. Do you know if TMS protocol can also stop POTS?
Yes POTS can be resolved with a TMS approach. If you type in POTS and TMS on UA-cam you get people talking about it and success stories. In particular Dan from the channel Pain Free You talks about this and Rebecca Tolin from her channel as well.
@@gustavtms - thank you! I wish more people thought that protracted withdrawal was TMS. I’ve been searching for other people who believe that it is, and I haven’t found anyone. I have Steve O’s book, but I don’t see anything in it about benzo withdrawal. I think you said he did. Can you tell me what he said about it? . By the way, I did email Dr. Schubiner, as you suggested. Thank you again! I’m going to keep listening to your UA-cam so I can keep hearing you say that protracted withdrawal is TMS. Do you have any other things online about it? 😊
Hi, I know a bunch of people who think protracted withdrawal is TMS. And I’ve communicated with some of them who have resolved protracted withdrawal with this approach. But as you mention, there are few materials out there specifically on protracted withdrawal and TMS together -- almost none -- which makes it difficult for people to find out about. This is probably in part because protracted withdrawal is such a little known thing compared to chronic pain, fibro, chronic fatigue, Long COVID - all household names. Everyone knows about them. Also the whole topic of psychiatric drug withdrawal is taboo anyway, and I think something people are scared to talk about. So this information just hasn’t reached withdrawal communities, among other reasons as well.
I spoke to Steve O once years ago. He was the only consult I ever had. He’s actually the first person to suggest to me that protracted withdrawal is TMS and that he’s helped people to resolve it via his consults. I didn’t even know what to make of that. I sort of had an open mind but I don’t think I really believed him. It went against what I'd read about in the withdrawal forums and groups. It wasn’t until I got into the approach and the withdrawal sensations went away that I realized it could be true. I don’t remember if Steve mentions it any of his books. I don’t think he does.
Here is an interesting thread from TMSwiki on someone who resolved protracted withdrawal sensations, among other things: www.tmswiki.org/forum/threads/i-was-going-to-post-a-success-story-on-an-anti-depressant-withdrawal-forum.20225/
This video is an eyeopener, mindfulness, meditation , affirmations , shut down your inner saboteur. Thank you 🙏
Is sensitivity to meds or even vitamins and other supplements considered TMS and if so can it be cured the same way?
Hi. Speaking very generally as I’m not qualified to answer such a question, drugs and supplements can cause adverse effects but if the reactions seem out of proportion then it might be TMS. If someone is afraid of taking a substance, whether consciously or unconsciously, this could this send send a danger signal to the mind and cause an adverse reaction of some kind. Yes, the approach to resolve this is basically the same.
While this isn’t exactly what you’re talking about I developed an intolerance toward certain foods, which resolved alongside the other protracted sensations. Here is a video about a guy who resolved histamine intolerance using a TMS approach: ua-cam.com/video/TSnSYeTpHLM/v-deo.html
I’ve had PSSD for almost two years now. Do you think it could also be TMS? Unfortunately, the PSSD ‘community’ is extremely toxic and they would never accept anything resembling TMS as the root cause. However, I think it could be TMS now.
Hi, this isn't something I personally experienced and I'm usually not comfortable talking outside my own experience. But you may wish to contact Steve Ozanich or maybe the Psychophysiologic "Disorders" Association. It's possible that they could provide you with a better answer than I can. Also, if you think it might be TMS, you could research TMS more and see how it resonates with you.
@@gustavtms PSSD is basically pretty similar to post-withdrawal issues from SSRIs, which also usually involves sexual issues as well, but can cause a large amount of symptoms. There’s no real biomarkers that have been found for it either. If PAWS is TMS, PSSD probably is too, and I know a guy who thinks it is due to TMS. I’ve tried huge detoxes for it as well, with no luck. It could be TMS, most biological treatments I have done have been complete dead-ends, with no improvement nor reaction to them at all, as if I have no true biological problem to begin with. There’s also a connection between PSSD and PGAD as well (I don’t have PGAD, but I’ve heard of people having both), and also POIS too, and I know PGAD can be caused by TMS.
I think some of my symptoms also were worsened when I found out about PSSD, so there is that correlation too. I started having some symptoms right when I stopped the drugs, but some appeared to only occur when I first read about it being a real thing.
Honestly, the main difference between PAWS (protracted withdrawal) and PSSD seems to be that PSSD always additionally involves sexual symptoms, which do not appear so much in ‘regular’ PAWS. However, basically all other non-sexual symptoms also occur frequently in PAWS, and also Long Covid.
Yes, what you’re saying makes a ton of sense to me. I hope you do pursue a TMS approach-and based on what you’ve written I’d say you’ve already started.
@@gustavtms I’ve tried a lot of things. I’m currently also taking chlorine dioxide, with no improvements and almost no die-off from it, which to me, is a big indicator that I do not have a lot of toxic overload that would result in these symptoms, if it was truly biological. I still plan on using CD, but I want to add TMS work to my ‘protocol’ as well, to cover both sides of it. Interestingly enough, I had ECT around a year ago, and it did improve some of my symptoms, but most symptoms did not improve. If this is TMS, could ECT potentially be a fix for that as well (ftr, I’m not interested in ECT any longer, but was always curious how it led to certain symptom improvements for me)? I’ve also been told to look into the cell danger response. Does that form a part of TMS, to your knowledge?
If my issues are indeed TMS, how long would recovery normally take? A few months of consistently doing the work for it, or could it take a year or longer? I’m obsessed with time. I’ve already lost nearly two years to this, and even after this is gone, I still need to rebuild my life, that was basically ruined by this happening to me.
I have probably 65-75% of the symptoms you mentioned in the video btw. However, I also have probably 10 additional symptoms that are sexual in origin, as well as memory issues (mainly short-term), and I also exhibit a lack of response to many drugs, such as psychedelics and cannabis, that I believe worked before all of this happened (this also happens frequently in Long Covid and MECFS patients, who I think also might have TMS). Within the last 6 months, I also have started losing some hair, and I also developed bad GERD / acid reflux, out of almost nowhere. I also have akathisia, mainly when standing, and in my case, it also correlates with neuropathic-like tingling in my legs and feet. The akathisia doesn’t affect me much when sitting or lying down. So yes, quite a bit of overlap with your TMS story.
I’ve been to many doctors (I hate doctors, but I’ve seen many nonetheless, and they’ve done nothing for me), and nothing biologically wrong has ever really came back. I had a lumbar puncture and multiple MRIs as well. To my knowledge, nothing abnormal was ever found.
Upon further examination, I believe all of the symptoms I present with may occur in the fight/freeze response, and I believe fight/freeze is the state of the parasympathetic nervous system that is most often the cause of TMS? Even certain other symptoms I have, such as a lack of eye contact following the onset, seem to be associated with the fight/freeze response.
Hi. I broke down what you said into several questions so hopefully my attempt at answers is organized. These are only my own views, of course, informed by what I personally understand about TMS.
If this is TMS, could ECT potentially be a fix for that as well?
No, ECT cannot resolve TMS-at least not in the long term. Linda Andre (who had ECT) wrote a book, Doctors of Deception, and basically said that when the brain/body is recovering from a grand mal seizure, you’re less likely to focus on other sensations/lack of sensations that might have been experienced beforehand. It also could be a placebo response as well. But ECT also does not address anything emotional, which is at the heart of TMS.
I’ve also been told to look into the cell danger response. Does that form a part of TMS, to your knowledge?
I haven’t heard of this before. Generally, once physical/structural causes are ruled out, a TMS approach involves looking at the situation emotionally. From a TMS perspective continuing to research various physiological theories about what could be wrong only increases the sense of danger and keeps the mind on high alert. This can keep the "withdrawal" situation going and be a distraction from acknowledging the underlying emotions.
If my issues are indeed TMS, how long would recovery normally take?
It took me five months but everyone is different. Some are shorter, others longer. One thing I had to realize was that I had already recovered (though I felt sick), and it was just a matter of me understanding that. However, an obsession with time can make things take longer. It’s the same as researching physiological theories, it just creates more stress and a sense of danger. But I know it’s hard to stop thinking about these things. What generally happens in a TMS approach is that through deeper learning a shift takes place in the unconscious mind that can change one’s conscious perspective-this makes it easier and feel more natural to begin to shift away from this type of thinking.
I believe fight/freeze is the state of the parasympathetic nervous system that is most often the cause of TMS?
I’ve heard it conceptualized in a few different ways, including like this and learned brain pathways. Whatever the case it’s about calming that sense of inner danger and knowing that nothing is physically wrong with you and that you’re emotionally safe from whatever else might be setting off a danger signal. It's possible that taking drugs or CD may signal to the brain that you still believe that something is physically wrong. This could be a hindrance to a TMS approach.
You may wish to read one of Sarno’s books as they might provide a better outline for this type of approach. MindBody Mastery by Kaitlin Michaels is a favourite podcast of mine. Steve Ozanich also had a wide variety of “symptoms” as well, his story may be of interest to you. And, yes, there are people with both Long Covid and MECFS who have resolved these experiences completely with a TMS or other neuroplastic approaches.
Hi Gustav, would you agree with the idea that TMS symptoms can be removed solely through learning safety (i.e. brain retraining), but to prevent their reoccurance in the future requires the deeper work on altering past negative beliefs which themselves generate negative emotions?
Hi Jacob, that’s an interesting question. I think it may vary from person to person but I’d put it this way for myself.
In the video I talk about two “withdrawal” experiences. The first came from an adverse reaction to a drug. That reaction came in waves and lasted for months. I basically thought I was dying or really sick. After I had a bunch of tests done and I realized I was totally healthy, I accepted that these waves were produced by “stress” (although I had no idea where the stress was from) and the next time I felt a wave, I reminded myself that I’m healthy and the wave just stopped. I don’t know if this is brain retraining, I’m not very familiar with the particulars of that, but that’s what happened in my situation: I halted the danger signals and the sensations stopped. How often someone would be able to stop withdrawal sensations in a similar way, I don’t know. But that might be an example of a story about “altering past negative beliefs” (I’m dying, I’m sick) which in themselves can “generate negative emotions” (fear, terror). While that is very important for me going deeper means something else.
Sarno talks about something called the symptom imperative, meaning that TMS sensations can change (or recur) over time until the underlying emotions responsible for the danger signals are addressed. So, in my situation, given that I remained clueless about my psychological stress, I would go on to experience various TMS manifestations including my second protracted withdrawal experience and chronic pain.
What I needed to do was acknowledge the deeper emotional pain going on inside me. That’s what found in research on neuroplastic syndromes, especially in chronic pain, that it’s an emotional “injury.” There’s just an enormous amount of emotional tension inside. I don’t know if this can always be thought away by altering one’s thinking. That might be too cerebral. At least it was for me.
It’s about emotions. It’s like when you have something you have to get off your chest really badly and it’s eating you alive and you finally say what you need to say to someone and they accept it and all of the sudden you feel calmer inside. It’s like this except the unconscious mind is really upset - you need to acknowledge that something inside you is upset and listen to that, accept that, and tell yourself that you’re emotionally safe now to stop the danger signals. That’s what returns the calm. To me it’s about linking the emotional upset to the sensations and telling the mind that the sensations are no longer necessary because the danger is over. There are techniques developed to do this, but it ultimately comes from the self.
Anyway that’s a bit longwinded but that’s what came to my mind from your question and it's my own understanding that helped me. Hopefully it makes some sense.
Great video! What film is shown in this?
Hi, it's Fear of Fear by Rainer Werner Fassbinder. I use the film somewhat out of context -- it's not really about withdrawal -- but it's still a great film.
Have you also experienced inner vibrations?
Not that I can remember, no.
Have you read “Becoming Supernatural”? I also like that too
I haven't. I had that book or another Dispenza book on hold at the library once but forgot to pick it up. I'm not that familiar with him.
Thank you that was so awesome of you!! Very well done the best I’ve seen out of all so far! The mind is so powerful ❤ Healed hugs to you ❤️🩹
Thank you as well! That's so kind of you to say. Yes, the power of the mind is incredible!
I see you use some movie clips. Can you tell me the names of all movies that have a MindBody concept?
Hi, the primary film I use is Fear of Fear (1975) by Rainer Werner Fassbinder. In the UA-cam video I change some of the film’s context/dialogue. It’s not really about withdrawal but I still related to it when I first watched it years ago.
Another film that is similar is Safe (1995) by Todd Haynes. Also, The Secret Garden (1993) by Agnieszka Holland and The River (1997) by Tsai Ming-liang (the last one is very dark). I would interpret parts of all those films from a mindbody perspective. I’m sure there are more but that’s all I can think of at the moment.
Where can i buy a copy or watch online The River. It looks very interesting. Also if you think of more movies please let me know. Watching these types of movies helps me understand the concept. Bad Milo, Augustine and The Singing Detective are all good movie Mind Body movies. You might like them.@@gustavtms
I watched The River yesterday. Seems like the moral was about sexual incest and empty lives causing mindbody neck pains. There is another movie called Days made by the same guy and has same theme of lonliness and neck pain. Is that a mindbody movie as well? Also i just caught a cold two days ago and feel worse. Every time i get a cold i feel worse for many weeks afterwards. Did you notice this as well when you dealt with mindbody withdrawals? Its like my body can not recover from anything@@gustavtms
@@BigBadMF43 Hi, I have yet to see Days so I’m not quite sure what it’s all about. Unfortunately many mindbody movies don’t have positive resolutions otherwise they could be so instructive. Often they leave it up to interpretation for artistic purposes.
When I thought I was in “withdrawal” I rarely got sick because I rarely went out. I did get the flu once and it definitely heightened the “withdrawal” sensations I was feeling at the time. But, personally, I had to stop thinking things about my bodily sensations, stop caring about them, and shift my attention to the psychological reasons for why my body was feeling the way it was. I remember when I was limping once from mindbody leg pain and someone asked me if I hurt my leg and I responded, no someone hurt my feelings. It’s this shift in perspective that was particularly helpful for me. As Sarno said, “As long as he is in any way concerned about what his body is doing, the symptoms will continue.”
@@gustavtmsok I understand the concept but this sounds to me like you’re ignoring symptoms, you’re not healed. Ignoring symptoms can be helpful, not dwelling is helpful, it removes a certain weight. But the symptoms are still there day after day. So my question is, because it really is not clear in this video: did you actually heal?
Ps: I randomly saw Safe and loved it, indeed made me think of my own condition in a way- except I don’t doubt that my symptoms are real and not psychosomatic.
How many who are listening and commenting, are dealing with benzo withdrawl/tolerance?????
It would be awesome if you could make a really long video of brainwashing that someone is healed and safe like they never went through this their body is safe. They are healthy and healed. Nothing is wrong with them.
Yes. Most TMS books and podcasts are kind of like this. I made them really long by listening to my favourite ones over and over and over again.
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