Really enjoying this channel since it recently popped up on my feed. I'm a numbers guy myself so I love hearing the measurements and details. Keep it up!
I came in from your Haas head and block machining videos. This is another great video, thanks for taking the time to show this, definitely high quality work. I’m glad I found your channel.
Yes, they will. But, when pistons are manufactured, they have a known thermal expansion for the material and they build in a clearance. The block also has a known expansion rate, so as long as everyone is using the same rates and measuring at the same temps, everything will work together well.
Machining is a static operation done to a cold chunk of metal. a running engine a whole different thing, thermals, stress, and overall dynamics makes the deck/combustion chamber moves. and moves alot especially under high boost, large NOS shots and different RPM ranges. By design it was never meant to seal perfectly never will be, as a result some blow by will occur either from the bore concentricity or from the piston ring gap or ring land it's just the nature of the beast
Had to take a break for a bit to get caught up on work. ill have a few videos coming out this week and I am going to try to make more content going forward!
I want to know, have you ever torque plate honed, then bolted an actual head to the block and checked ovality with the dial bore gauge from the mains end of the cylinder? I ask this because Tony Bischoff on a hidden horse power pod cast said that some torque plates actually add to much stiffness and can be worse.
The torque plate is effectively a cylinder head. The only variable i see is the bolt/stud thread depth into the block. You just need to ensure to use the same hardware at the same depth at the same torque, for both honing and mounting the cylinder head.
I was watching a live 'hidden horse power' cast with Lake Speed Jr and someone else, they were talking about a guy that was having leak down issues that he couldn't solve. When Lake looked in the bore he could see where the rings were not touching parts of the bore, even though the block had been torque plate honed. His solution was bolt the head on and measure from the mains end and make a map of the bore distortion. Then take the head off and put the torque plate on, then replicate the bore distortion map by varying the bolt tension. The key is replicate the distortion during honing, not replicate the bolt torque and assume the distortion is being replicated.
@@gpumonitor Nick, dude me and the other two commenters know this. I don't understand how you can have a grasp of my comment with the reply you gave, it seems you are still learning about this and don't 100% know what you're talking about.
I agree with the material difference of the head plate but you must also consider the thickness of the material and it's torsional forces on the block.
Heads have a lot of material missing where chambers, ports and water jackets are. A solid plate is likely a decent representation of the stiffness and with a flat deck and torque plate the mating should be straightforward. I'd imagine that the torque spec would be more important than the material used. It would be interesting to have a block with a warped deck tested to see how much difference there would be before and after decking. After all, even with a good deck adding the torque plate can move the cylinders a measurable amount.
Great Vid. Quick question, how much bigger is the bore oversized on these torque plates? I'm assuming you don't want the hone shoes to hit or touch the bore on the torque plate right? Are these sized for the situations where the block is bored bigger also or is that a separate set of plates? I woukd thing it could be the same plate along as it was larger.
Usually whatever the max bore is for that type of engine. You don't need a different plate for each size of bore. the main thing you are trying to simulate is the distortion of the bolt pulling on the threads in the block changing the shape of the cylinders.
Have you tried letting the block/plate settle jnto one another for an extended time before measuring. Or did a before snd after such as measuring one immediately after bolting it down vs. measuring it 2 hours later?
There is no difference because once it is bolted down, unless there is a major temp change, nothing moves. I have honed a block and then came back the next morning and the bores are exactly the same.
It is different for every motor depending on where the head bolts pull on the block. The most wear I usually see is at the top of the cylinder where the piston stops and heads back down.
@@paragonengines1924 That makes sense when you consider the heat and pressure on the power stroke. It's also where the rod reverses and goes from pushing to one side of the bore to being pushed toward the other side. The same thing happens at the bottom of the bore but without as much heat and pressure and more oil from splashing and windage.
Never saw the gauge for setting the shoes. Good video.
I forgot to include that, sorry!
Really enjoying this channel since it recently popped up on my feed. I'm a numbers guy myself so I love hearing the measurements and details. Keep it up!
Awesome! I'm glad you like it!
That was awsome brother. The only thing better is to be there in person. Thank you.
You're welcome!
I came in from your Haas head and block machining videos. This is another great video, thanks for taking the time to show this, definitely high quality work. I’m glad I found your channel.
Welcome aboard!
Thank you for your knowledge and videos.. USA 🇺🇸 USA 🇺🇸
You're welcome!
Wouldn't these dimensions change when the block is at operating temperature?
Yes, they will. But, when pistons are manufactured, they have a known thermal expansion for the material and they build in a clearance. The block also has a known expansion rate, so as long as everyone is using the same rates and measuring at the same temps, everything will work together well.
Machining is a static operation done to a cold chunk of metal. a running engine a whole different thing, thermals, stress, and overall dynamics makes the deck/combustion chamber moves. and moves alot especially under high boost, large NOS shots and different RPM ranges. By design it was never meant to seal perfectly never will be, as a result some blow by will occur either from the bore concentricity or from the piston ring gap or ring land it's just the nature of the beast
Great point!
Great content!
Thank you! glad you enjoyed it!
Did you stop making videos. I enjoy the info and the videos.
Had to take a break for a bit to get caught up on work. ill have a few videos coming out this week and I am going to try to make more content going forward!
Thanks for the great video. Keep it up!
Thanks, will do!
GM advertises that they do torque plate hone the LSA at the factory
Awesome! I couldn't remember. thanks for verifying!
I want to know, have you ever torque plate honed, then bolted an actual head to the block and checked ovality with the dial bore gauge from the mains end of the cylinder?
I ask this because Tony Bischoff on a hidden horse power pod cast said that some torque plates actually add to much stiffness and can be worse.
The torque plate is effectively a cylinder head. The only variable i see is the bolt/stud thread depth into the block. You just need to ensure to use the same hardware at the same depth at the same torque, for both honing and mounting the cylinder head.
I have done it to a few of my common blocks I work with and measured no difference
I was watching a live 'hidden horse power' cast with Lake Speed Jr and someone else, they were talking about a guy that was having leak down issues that he couldn't solve.
When Lake looked in the bore he could see where the rings were not touching parts of the bore, even though the block had been torque plate honed.
His solution was bolt the head on and measure from the mains end and make a map of the bore distortion. Then take the head off and put the torque plate on, then replicate the bore distortion map by varying the bolt tension.
The key is replicate the distortion during honing, not replicate the bolt torque and assume the distortion is being replicated.
@@bradmcgrath358 yea that makes sense.
@@gpumonitor Nick, dude me and the other two commenters know this. I don't understand how you can have a grasp of my comment with the reply you gave, it seems you are still learning about this and don't 100% know what you're talking about.
I found it odd the lateral sides near the top had more wear than the thrust sides
Could just be the shape and not so much wear.
I agree with the material difference of the head plate but you must also consider the thickness of the material and it's torsional forces on the block.
That is true, it is something to consider. But buying a couple different plates just to test isn't really financially feasible.
Heads have a lot of material missing where chambers, ports and water jackets are. A solid plate is likely a decent representation of the stiffness and with a flat deck and torque plate the mating should be straightforward.
I'd imagine that the torque spec would be more important than the material used. It would be interesting to have a block with a warped deck tested to see how much difference there would be before and after decking. After all, even with a good deck adding the torque plate can move the cylinders a measurable amount.
Great Vid. Quick question, how much bigger is the bore oversized on these torque plates? I'm assuming you don't want the hone shoes to hit or touch the bore on the torque plate right? Are these sized for the situations where the block is bored bigger also or is that a separate set of plates? I woukd thing it could be the same plate along as it was larger.
Usually whatever the max bore is for that type of engine. You don't need a different plate for each size of bore. the main thing you are trying to simulate is the distortion of the bolt pulling on the threads in the block changing the shape of the cylinders.
Have you done any Gen 3 Hemis? Do they need to be torque plate honed?
Have you tried letting the block/plate settle jnto one another for an extended time before measuring. Or did a before snd after such as measuring one immediately after bolting it down vs. measuring it 2 hours later?
There is no difference because once it is bolted down, unless there is a major temp change, nothing moves. I have honed a block and then came back the next morning and the bores are exactly the same.
@@paragonengines1924 the reason I asked that is I have had the exact opposite reported by a handful of people.
I haven't seen those results. I can even take the plate off and put it back on and retorque it and still be within .0002" of where it was.
Tolerance??
We shoot for +/- .0002" in taper and out-of-round
So the torque plate has the most impact on the upper cylinder area. Which honestly isn't the most critical area of wear.
It is different for every motor depending on where the head bolts pull on the block. The most wear I usually see is at the top of the cylinder where the piston stops and heads back down.
@@paragonengines1924 That makes sense when you consider the heat and pressure on the power stroke. It's also where the rod reverses and goes from pushing to one side of the bore to being pushed toward the other side. The same thing happens at the bottom of the bore but without as much heat and pressure and more oil from splashing and windage.
How am I supposed to send you parts to machine if your address isn't listed anywhere?
You can call or email us if you have further inquires.