Yea, I think this is what is missed from choujimi... The more you age, the more unlikely you'll be unsuited to a concept (Crayon Pop apparently had a 30 y.o-ish member in their line, but they still somehow were able to pull off cute concept. Well, maybe it's because they mix cute with quirky so the concept suitability is expanded. But that's another story) Twice did aegyeo in their beginnings, not only they're fitting themselves to the market audience, but also to the members' age. But now they're mature women, so a no aegyeo is pretty much what the girls need... They change their aegyeo to woman empowerment, which apparently is appealing to western market. So yeah, they change their direction. Though, I clearly get what choujimi said here (like- their shifting is somehow too dry? Like- okay, they're favored by the western audience now, but their substance is pretty much in danger as a group)... I think this is why JYP tends to make another groups rather than changing direction. He probably is aware that changing Twice's direction is quite risky, so he starts making groups like Itzy and VCHA (like what choujimi said in the end-ish of this video: the marketing intention of a group)...
But they started changing and made a transition that started gradually with fancy and feel special and could go on slowly but progressing on the mature side from that, without trying too hard to appeal to the western market. I think that the attempt to do both things is what went wrong... or, at least, not as good as it would go
@@deefraux4012he literally said that releases like talk that talk and basics are what twice should be doing mature but faithful to their sound or they should do something like alcohol free mature but not chasing trends instead using a western sound and creating a song that fits you that has your own flavor
isn't that what he was saying though? Go down the route with songs like basics? bring in more of an rnb vibe to their music to bring that maturity with out totally erasing their music
One thing I think these companies fail to understand is that most kpop stans were drawn to kpop due to it's uniqueness from other music industries. I personally liked kpop because it was very different from the culture I grew up with and found it interesting and fun. And due to them changing and taking away this uniqueness,many fans are leaving because what they entered the fandom for is slowly fading away. Kpop is just trying hard to be something it's not and can never be. They are losing the fans they already have in attempt to appeal and get validation from the west. Such a bad marketing strategy ngl
I was a once during their younger years and as I grew older I began to see that most groups transition into a western style of music which seem bland for the western audience. I mean the reason why kpop was loved is because of its over the top aesthetic and ridiculous chorus/beat that you barely can't see anywhere.
I agree. I’ve been with KPop since 2013. Back then, it still had a very distinct KPop sound. And it wasn’t for everyone. Certain groups like Bigbang had songs “normies” could like, but generally was still a little different. I felt so at home there. Although I do like some songs that come out now, it’s not for the same reasons as I did back then
@@trxxa_ngl I’m super shallow and while lyrics can easily elevate the song, I’m not going to want to listen to it if it’s not interesting. Alcohol-Free and Talk That Talk were sonically interesting. Set Me Free was… something zzz. I Got You and One Spark from With You-th are the weakest of the whole EP for me. They’re so generic. Bloom is THAT GIRL.
I think Jihyo's single suffered from this alone. I think the rest of the album (minus Talk about it) is great- shows vulnerability, the musical direction, songwriting and composing aspect. Killing me good didn't reach the Korean audience and while having some noticeable moments outside of Korea, it didn't manage to show longevity. That's why Nayeon's Pop worked, cause it was unapologetically K-pop, from sound, lyrics, choreography point, colours mixed with nostalgic feelings towards early Twice.
I completely agree. Pop is essentially kpop through and through. While Jihyo’s KMG feels like a song from the west that isn’t really noteworthy and it was a self fulfilling prophecy
@@greeng6914Even Scientist wasn't that well received by fans. He and his wife are alright when they're producing once a while, not every single comeback.
@@greeng6914 well every song they’ve produced after scientist sounds like something you’d hear in a retail store, I don’t know what happened, I feel like I kind of understood why set me free and killin me good sounded like that but one spark was underwhelming. I don’t listen to txt so I wouldn’t know how they work with them.
It’s always the strangest thing ever, the west would eat up the sci-fi hyper pop style asepa has but they have to go with the basic bare bones pop song 😢
@@TuhinaSaysHi i’m sorry but.. no they wouldn’t 😭 a song like next level would never become a hit here. the genre isn’t the issue, the executive is, it doesn’t suit western tastes but also neither do their english releases.
@@xrrgrIdk, I’m pretty sure the west would like a song like hold on tight, lingo, maybe illusion too. It doesn’t have to be apart of the main lore/storyline, maybe a sub plot so nobody complains lol
its not just their eng songs tbh... after lee soo man left SM aespa completely changed... they left Kwangya asap and are now in the real world and their aes are nowhere to be seen and dont even get me started on the bsides.. the bsides on the savage album were all so aespa like and the whole album was a cohesive body of work. after lee soo man left, their albums have no cohesion whatsoever anymore and they're now making basic pop songs like their new highlight medley sounds awful. Lee soo man was the creative mind behind Aespa and after he left all the groups originality left with him. Like one of their upcoming songs "bahamas" like really Aespa?? that song sounds like Sabrina Carpenter could've sung it and i dont mean that as a compliment like they were supposed to make music like björk and sophie and now they have a horrible pop punk song on their upcoming album (Live My Life) the downgrade is insane
One thing that's not mentioned is that once fans lose interest in a group, it takes extra effort to get them back. When a song doesn't chart as well, it's not necessarily because of that song, it might be because of the last song or few songs. Even if they were to return to form, doesn't mean it'll chart as well. For a portion of the fan base, the momentum is gone, the enthusiasm has dwindled, and they're moving on. They'll still like TWICE but they'll be more interested in their old work, rather than paying attention to their new work. When a legacy group has new releases, it can't be viewed in isolation, there is context.
yes, the losing interest or fandom burn-out part is so important! as a moa, i've witnessed how TXT's Chasing that Feeling took all the damage from the Back for More and Do it like that eng singles.. we as a fandom worked so hard to promote and give numbers to both collabs (cause BigHit is pretty much useless) that we were left ABSOLUTELY burnt-out when the actual album came out. We now joke about how our numbers were "depressing" during the Freefall era... All these companies are so desperately money-hungry that they end up damaging the main thing that keeps them afloat, the fans
How do you explain their continued growth and how each album keeps outperforming the one before? I mean this legit, not in a snarky way. Like factually they are bigger today than ever before.
@@SquirtlePower809I respectfully disagree, Twice is an established group with a large fanbase so in terms of album sales and tours they are going to be fine, I think what this discussion is about is how their music has been stuck, except for talk that talk which for me is the most Twice song they have released in a long time. In my opinion JYP did not know how to transition the girls to a more mature concept and as I said before they stuck them both musically and in the essence of the group. I blame JYP since this also happens to the other groups under their label.
@@helenarcos4175 imo Twice don't suit for an empowering image, because they don't know how to deliver it themselves. The way they deliver some latest songs sounds the same as the way they did in a cute concept. You can hear Twice's rap lines execute their parts poorly in Set me Free. Jihyo is the one who could do her assignment well in every comeback. I just wish they could take some time to improve their singing or rapping to express their messages more convincingly. Moreover, I hope Twice will not be the one who has to chase the music trend for their song choices, they should be given songs which are based from their own DNA.
I’ve been saying this for awhile, so I’ll narrow down my thoughts. Kpop companies can’t and shouldn’t change a groups concept of image to be more marketable in the west, like they do in The Jappanese market . People in the west reverted to Kpop has niche to fulfill spaces in-between other niches. Blackpink never had a concept change or that heavy of a sound change and that’s why they did and do so well in the west. Blackpink’s concept and performance style is also very suited to western audiences already. YG made them with all audiences in mind and you could see that with how they shoved Jennie and Lisa into the front of promotions and kept Rose and Jisoo in back, since Rose and Jisoo are suited to the Korean general public. Looking at what Lesserfim and Aespa at Coachella, they both didn’t have training in preforming with western audiences or stages and they got torn down. I think most people are leaving kpop because kpop companies are trying to hard to shove pandering to western audiences.
I mean, people really like Boy With Luv though in my experience, and it is a pretty big departure from BTS. Butter and Yet To Come seem to get more critique but Boy With Luv seems generally regarded as a really good pop song. BTS solos have also done really well despite not really being the same sound as classic BTS. If Blackpink released more songs they'd also have to change sounds at some point or else eventually people will tire of too much of the same thing. I And like, aespa and Le Sserafim are both still very popular?
@@CatNagTaylorsVersion The topic of discussion is whether westernization is hurting groups though. Coachella is just an incident of Kpop drama that hits every popular group. It's not that different than the drama about Blackpink tour performances that people stir up. Actual incidences of westernization hurting groups' career arcs doesn't really exist in my opinion. There have been plenty of awkward sound changes over the years of all types. And then there's a lot of people spinning their personal dislike for some comebacks into a broader narrative. TWICE's recent comebacks have specific issues that are related to westernization but not inherent to it. Comebacks like I Can't Stop Me did very well internationally. There is no need to concern troll about Western-friendly songs killing Kpop.
JYPe has always had this problem with integrating their artists with the western audiences, from fumbling wonder girls, hot and cold with Twice, completely losing the plot with Itzy and now shoot blindly with stray kids, for stray kids' sake i hope this single gives them what they want from it.
In Stray Kids situation, 3Racha luckily produces their music so it sounds more authentic. However, with the raise of 5 Gen, it’s up to them to figure how to transition the Stray Kids in this new age in Kpop.
And even NMIXX They seemed to have trained to be a global gg seeing how many members can speak English & Spanish But JYP is Messing them up more n more Despite being the most talented group in 4th gen and one of the best vocalists in k-pop They are still struggling to achieve the heights they need to achieve Nd a huge part of this is because of JYPE JYPE know How to create one of the most talented artists in the industry but sucks at managing them , they only did a good job with ITZY initially nd now even that is going down the drain
@@idkymhere JYPE sucks majorly at promotions, even their teasers suck, Nmixx have the best concepts of all their groups and this is probably thanks to the subcompany running them yet they're still not promoted appropriately. I love JYPE artists, they're so easy to like personally, I'll wait for them to get back to top.
The correct music industry term is not "translated songs" but adaptations. It's a high art form to transfer deeper meaning across, say, French-English or Japanese-Korean divide, never mind the great distance of Korean - English divide. There are few songwriters who could it pull off, especially when the original songs have deeper, specific meanings. But it can be done, and as our video author concluded, should be done. Because groups like TWICE are worth the investment.
THANK YOU THAT'S WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING. Like there's no Issue in promoting in the West or having English of their versions of their songs or even making English music, that's fine and a good marketing tactic. But my Issue personally is how much some Kpop groups try to emulate SO FIERCELY what's popular on the West Pop scene in the dryest way possible, to the point that it's giving nothing to really work with the music besides being Top 40 Pop radio music. As a Queen would say: "Where is the flavor in this. I taste nothing"
Is that really what this essay is saying? I Can't Stop Me is listed as a song that's similar to a popular Western song from a previous year and it's very well-regarded. The essay is mostly about how TWICE's English versions or Korean title tracks are weakening them lyrically.
@@bopete3204 i think people forget at its core kpop has always been western inspired, i mean the first kpop group was legit made to be a backstreet boys copy… the issue is just low quality music.
@@xrrgr Precisely. It’s all just pop music. Pop music generally relies on trends. The name of the game has been how quickly they can hop on a trend, how much they can make out of it, and how to package all of it to appeal to as many people as possible. Naturally, that process will lead to plenty of watered-down content as the end product.
@@xrrgrI understand what people are saying but Kpop doesn't really have its own sound, it derives from the Western influence as you said. The difference I think is the language and culture
@@xrrgryes but it's always had Korean/Asian influence. Now they're just trying to copy everything from Ariana to Nicki to Cardi and Megan. If we wanted that we'd stay watching ppl like that
Did you just forget about the feels? The chokehold the feels had on the west should be studied. They were playing the feels in the CLUBS like twice needs to go back to doing more like the feels everyone was eating her uppppp
i personally believe that western audiences dont even really WANT these groups to become to hyper-westernised. like part of the reason groups like TWICE and BTS got traction in western markets was because their sound wasn't like your Ariana Grandes and Taylor Swifts. They were them! And frankly, JYP should realise we fell in love with TWICE back when TWICE was not even trying to be a global girl group. Their identity is not incompatible with global audiences, it very much is IMHO. TWICE releasing English-language singles and translations is inherently fine, but what JYP, TWICE's team, and TWICE themselves need to do is evaluate how much pf a role pandering plays in lyrical content. I think the best course of action is to either simply just write the Korean-language tracks to their full power, translatability be damned, and then continue writing good English singles, OR, balance it out. Kpop groups should not sacrifice their identity to pander to the western hemisphere, especially since it's clear that western audiences enjoy these groups even if they have a very Korea-aimed strategy.
I feel like producers saw how bts has risen to the top in the US with their westernized songs and tried to do the same except now they are just losing kpop identity all together
I think you hit the nail on the head when you said they should write Korean songs to their full power & just have stand alone English tracks. If they really want to promote to the western hemisphere at the same time, that would make the most sense. Hopefully they won't lose their music identity in the process.
@@mmiek796 and when you get asked what "westernized sound" they have you're gonna answer (very predictably btw) their 3 english songs out of their 400+ track discography.........pls come up with something else it's getting boring, dragged out and tiringggg
So who came up with the conclusion that their sacrificing their identity? Shouldn't artists be allowed to try new concepts or do you expect them to be an certain era forever? I'm from the west, but I could care less if they're hyper-westernized or not. It actually makes good makes good mashups if you want me to be honest. But to say their sacrificing their identity.... not even sure how that conclusion is even made because it focuses on side vs. what the artists want. And what the fans want vs. want the artists are going to be 2 different things. And to be honestly, during Twice's comeback (thought they lost to Les Serrafim) at M Countown, there were quite a lot of people supporting them. And I don't think that was a western audience, that seemed solely fans from Korea. And also, their 8th anniversary fanmeet was actually held in Seoul, it wasn't held here in the states. Long story short, music is changing whether we like it or not. I mean, do you expect Twice stay in the What is love/Heartshaker/Cheer Up or the Yes or Yes era in 2024? They've grown out of it and it would be sort of strange since most of the members are almost 30. They're humans... they're going to mature....
Twice is going have a Japanese comeback and album at July I am sure it's going to be better than One Spark because the concept photos are so dreamy and mermaid core like
One Spark is pretty fitting when you imagine it's celebrating TWICE's longevity. It really gives me Feel Special vibes where the song feels like it's meant for them and how they express their love for one another. Definitely leagues above Set Me Free in terms of execution.
One thing I would add is that I'm personally a little sick of pre release singles. I tend to like the songs themselves a lot, so that's not the problem. But I don't even usually associate the pre release with the album by the time it actually drops. If you want to make multiple MV's, I'm more than fine with that. But I think pre releases tend to highlight any lacking cohesion in the actual comeback and fuels comparison about what is actually "the best" and "deserving" of the majority's attention.
I think Welcome To My World and Allergy are good examples of pre-release actually being pre-releases that set up the theme of the main release. Often pre-releases do end up as another title track though. I think it's a context dependent thing that people have gotten a bit too loose with.
I think the issue with pre release singles in K-pop is that the album is so short it usually doesn’t justify it, unlike western artists who can drop 2 or 3 singles and still have ten new songs on release. That, combined with how some prerelease singles are entirely different concepts that are hardly explored. I’m all for more MVs but I feel like the way it’s done needs to be retooled
Wdym? Kpop has always been westernised, it's literally American pop/hiphop/r&b songs sing in Korean. It doesn't distinctively sound like Korean, unlike Jpop who has a distinctive Japanese sound. That's also the reason Kpop is more popular worldwide than Jpop
@@万恶共匪毒害中华 That's absolutely not true. Or maybe it was in the beginning, only. Find me any successful Western-originated group making songs like What Is Love and Cheer Up; or ASAP and RUN2U (STAYC); or Rough (GFRIEND); or Up & Down (EXID).
@@万恶共匪毒害中华 and whats J-pops unique sound? We could claim anything from around the globe can be tied back to america and all of their music subcultures. K-pop has a larger amount of songs that have a more sugar-like sound. take Gee by Girls Generation, its light and sugary and really popular. Thats what I mean by a k-pop sound. If you have taken a step outside of america or just become aware of your surroundings, you’d realize how much of an impact america and american pop culture has had on the world, good or bad, wether you like it or not. So of course they’d take inspiration from american sub-genres, cause thats what audiences have come to like, korean or american. But thats not to say they didn’t create something new out of those things, just like you said “american pop/hiphop/r&b”, they created a new sound combining sub-genres.
@@万恶共匪毒害中华You are missing the point. You would never hear songs like Red Flavor or Cheer Up in the west. Now groups release songs like Easy and Set Me Free to appeal to Americans. When people talk about k-pop westernization, they talk about how groups are actively trying to chart in the US. Almost no one was doing that before outside of a few times once or twice like Wonder Girls
For me I look at it as a tale of two methods: emulating western sounds after a group establishes themselves, and debuting with western soundscapes and promotional methods already in place. This is why to me, western promoted tracks from BTS and Twice sound so removed from their other songs. Blackpink and NewJeans debuted with the plan to both make music and promote with the west in mind. I think you could make the argument BTS debuted with a very western hip-hop sound but I would disagree, their production even for 2013-ish was quite dated, I still love No More Dream though.
I think this just traces back to the fundamental problem of how an artist can evolve over time while retaining existing fans (or gaining more new ones than they lose) rather than anything specific about Westernization though. Blackpink and NewJeans just haven't released so many songs that they need to change to keep things fresh yet (and in Blackpink's case they might not ever)
Nahh some of y'all must not be alright because is hiphop/rap, rock, rnb, jazz, pop, neo soul etc etc not western 😭😭😭😭💀 WHERE DO Y'ALL THINK THOSE GENRES CAME FROMMM BTS especially is just making and releasing the music they want to release dawg omg free the guys from these discussions 😭😭💀 like I'm so tired ITS BEEN NEARLY 4 YEARS MOVE ON IM BEGGING
@@Timothee-101 I said how are xyz genres not western..... we're saying the same thing friend 😭 and to expand on it - kpop is not a genre. It never has been, it's an industry. Kpop is an umbrella term because kpop can be any single song of any single genre under the sun lol
i would love to hear a Korean version with the og lyrics Charli XCX made, Fifth Harmony's demo sounds so good but the lyrics are also great, Twice kinda censored the original lyrics.
I think that Twice’s signature sound really fits what is popular with both Korean and western markets right now. They should try to take advantage of that. Twice still has so much that they can achieve. They just need to select title tracks that are true to them as a group. I think that Twice can make music that is both mature, fits the Korean and western markets, and still has their signature sound. A really great example of this is The Feels. The Feels stays true to their signature Twice sound, but is more mature than their past releases. With You-th is such a strong album. All of the songs follow the same distinct sound in my opinion. One Spark is the only song that doesn’t really fit the rest of the album. In an interview the members said that One Spark was supposed to be a title track for a previous album, but they ended up not using it. I think JYPE needs to be making title tracks specifically for Twice instead of using rejected songs that were supposed to be on previous albums. Now that the Twice members have more of a voice in the direction that their music is going in they definitely seem to want to lean more into a mature sound. I think they should continue making music that makes them happy and that they feel comfortable performing now that they are in this stage of their career.
I don't know if you listened to the snippet of the TT by the time I'm replying, but it feels like it's going to be a good song!! It seems to be reminiscent of the old school kpop sounds emulating the R&B/ hip hop trends of the West but with its own singular flavour
@@margarettesafiya6908 yes I did and it wasn’t what I expected but she definitely rocked the cooler concept of this comeback!! The fan chant also perfectly suits it. Let’s stream!! 😄
I would say (g)-idle is another pretty good example of K-pop groups with a big international fan base but promote heavily in Korea and whose songs aren’t impacted by westernization (unless someone is a xenophobe then yes soyeons not perfect English will bother them and yes they’ll talk about it relentlessly on twitter)
@@dghsdjk44But targeting her specifically all the time and saying that her English is horrible for every comeback is xenophobic. It's not her first language ,but she is doing fine.
English is not my first language and I still cringe with some of her songs. And it's literally her job, she have to put some effort learning English if she wants write in English. Is not that hard@@rubyrubacus9787
@@dghsdjk44 soyeon is literally one of the only kpop rappers who doesn’t use aave It’s just her grammar that’s a bit off People love to make shit up
9:40 BTS „lost the plot“ in 2020 and 2021 BECAUSE it was NOT THE PLAN to be active as a group after MOTS 7 for a few years. When you really look into it, it makes so much sense that MOTS 7 was supposed to be BTS‘ last album („goodbye album“) before their inevitable break during their military enlistment. Every major year end award show performance of 2019 was a throwback to the beginnings of BTS‘ discography. They performed at MAMA 2019 N.O. and we‘re bulletproof pt. II and at MMA 2019 boy in luv (followed by boy with luv as the second half of the coin) and referenced almost every old title track during their performance (comeback trailer of school luv affair and O!RUL8,2?, no more dream, danger, I need u, fire, save me, fake love, N.O.). MOTS 7 features 3 early comeback trailer in their songs (intro persona: school luv affair, interlude shadow: dark&wild, outro ego: debut trailer) and ON (N.O. reversed) should become the peak of BTS’ spectacular dance choreography performances. MOTS 7 was made to be a full circle moment as the closure of the on going MOTS era and with the planned world tour the grand finale of the „first chapter“. CLEARLY BTS DID NOT initially PLAN for another „plot concept“ afterwards/beyond that. Then the pandemic happened and it was unclear when and if they could go on tour. So they waited. But they were in this weird transition period not knowing when they can go on tour and Jin having to go to the military in December of 2020. So on the one hand nobody at that time could predict how long Covid would prohibit in person concerts (weeks or months and the predictions frequently changed), but on the other hand the estimated time period as a full member group was limited till Jin‘s enlistment in December 2020. These few months didn’t allow to develop and establish a completely new concept for an album series like BTS prior work (usually created for a time frame of 2-3 years). Of course, in retrospective you know they stayed together as a group for two more years, but at this time nobody would have thought. And they couldn’t have stayed together for two more years if dynamite had not become this successful and the Korean government had not decided to pass the new law which allowed Jin to postpone his enlistment. So they tried to make the best out of the situation and released this fun disco dance track they were sent entirely in English. And it exploded. After that they made an introspective self produced album in Korean. I think after the success of dynamite they thought „okay let‘s give it a try and see how far we can get“ with this new dimension of global success. They had this unexpected time period where they couldn’t go on tour and suffered under the lack of in person interactions with their fans while performing. Imo they didn‘t want to enlist like „this“ during the pandemic. Then the Korean government passed the „BTS law“ and Jin didn’t have to enlist in 2020. So they had to (and COULD) wait as OT7 until things got better and they could perform in person in front of Armys for a last time AS A GROUP before leaving to the military individually. Therefore IT MAKES PERFECTLY SENSE for them at the time to release one or two single tracks (they want to do right now or maybe think will do well with its simple but catchy and happy pop/dance vibe in a depressing pandemic) and collaborate with other artists they like for individual songs instead of setting up a long term album series project with well thought out concepts needed to be build up over time like BTS usually did/does. Because they could not plan that far ahead and wanted/had to be able to adopt quickly to changing circumstances (like maybe be able to go on tour after all which sadly didn’t happen though). And they closed the „first chapter“ with a spectacular grammy performance, in person concerts and an anthology album and the Busan YTC „festival“ in 2022. And in the current „second chapter“ all members are making music they personally love and want to do. And imo BTS DIDN‘T LOOSE their essence or CORE IDENTITY. BTS didn’t have a singular signature style to begin with. They were ALWAYS evolving and trying new styles and just are a very VERSATILE GROUP. But I think you can always feel the „BTS essence“ in all of it. But there are always certain fans who became army in a specific era or favor a specific side, style or sound of BTS. And these fans always want more of there preferred version of BTS and maybe get scared (?) that they won‘t get that anymore in the future. These are the ones who say „Oh BTS have changed and I like the old BTS, I want the old BTS back“. But what „the old BTS“ is varies: some mean the old school hip hop „no more dream“ like BTS, and others mean the „dope and fire“ BTS or HYYH BTS, wings BS&T BTS, spring day/ you never walk alone BTS, love yourself BTS or MOTS BTS etc. BTS can appeal to so many different audiences with different preferences, but not everybody will like everything. You can like the rap and hip hop style, the emotional ballads, the pop songs, the edm tracks, the more „happy“ „party“ vibe, the darker vibe, the nostalgic vibe, the large scale dance choreographies with 50 backup dancers, the detailed choreos, the fun choreos or the vocal performances. Other groups (like for example Blackpink and Twice who are mentioned in the video) have a more „narrow“ signature concept and style of music. They also have of course variations and different types of songs, but all of it should fit to the general vibe and concept. So the fans you attract are more likely to like all of their music (and not say they don’t like the music anymore because the style stays the same). This means the fans might also disapprove with a „drastic“ style change they‘re not used to (which is what is happening with twice at the moment imo) But I don‘t think BTS has become „too westernized“. They are allowed to try different styles. That doesn’t means they will follow this path forever. And I think it shows. BTS did not only release disco pop tracks in English since dynamite. They released a self produced album in Korean called BE, a classic Japanese style ballad named film out, a Korean ballad with my youth, a R&B ballad with yet to come (resembling 2013/14 BTS) and with run bts a perfect (indescribable) unique BTS-esque song (in Korean). From the solo projects we got a wonderful range of different styles and songs suiting to each member. We got Jungkook with an English album targeting the western market that worked for the domestic and global market as well, Jimin with an (in house self produced) album, semi marketed to a western as well as a domestic audience which succeeded the expected outcome in the US, Jin with an English ballad written by Chris Martin that suits Jin’s style perfectly, as well as Hobi (primarily self produced) and Tae with albums directed at specific music genre fans and not primarily created to appeal to the general public (with no collabs), Yoongi with an (primarily self produced) Korean rap album and a title track featuring traditional Korean instruments and RM who featured an internationally unknown but domestic well acclaimed Korean rock singer on his title track (album primarily self produced as well). All of their musically choices suit the individual members perfectly and are the result of them experimenting with new sounds and styles as well as pursuing the music they want to do, imo. Disclaimer: I know the video is NOT about BTS and armys always spam at every opportunity with their opinions about BTS but if you mention BTS, I can voice my opinion and argue with the statement(s) made in the video. I originally clicked on the video because of Twice (I really like them as a group and their music) and I would mostly agree with the analysis. But as an army I have more of an „expertise“ on BTS than Twice (therefore I clicked on the video to learn more about Twice) and imo the case for BTS is a little different than for other groups like the ones mentioned in the video. Imo (not really an expert so not a qualified opinion here) Twice‘s current strategy is not bad. I like some songs and maybe they will release songs with a more „classic“ iconic Twice sound again in the future as well. Not everyone has to like every song all the time. Trying different sounds and styles is nothing bad and it doesn’t mean that they lost their core identity (just yet). They can go back to it. Maybe after a few comebacks you could say they lost their initial core identity. As of now it could be a phase of trying new styles and grow as a group and artists. Twice gets older, too. Maybe they want to look for a more mature concept or something like that (or follow current trends to not become „outdated“). And there is nothing wrong about that. They will get new fans who like the new concept and „older fans“ still have the past discography. Nobody is taking it away. But „the older fans“ are also allowed to voice their opinion and wish for their favored version of Twice. Imo you can make good music (as a K-pop artist) in English and Korean, you just have to make the effort and have the vision to create something good. Maybe the problem is like pointed out in the video, that the recent Korean tracks are written and produced with less effort than the English tracks. If this is the case, I would agree that this can create a serious problem for their balance as a group. Maybe the solution is like pointed out in the video to produce songs that are in itself complete and good and not try to make it work in both languages. Thanks for the video!
i never thought of mots:7 in that way before reading this! and the way you mention BTS's versatility is very well-put as i struggle myself to put it into words. anyways, thank you for this insightful comment
They don't realize westerners like being in niches. Not a lot of people want it mainstream. I like the music in korean. None of the western kpop fans i know ever are extra excited over an english release
I hope that twice ends up going for music for title tracks that is more like their b-sides. I love their b sides and i genuinely believe if they stop looking for specific viral sounding songs fit for specific audiences and go for their favorite songs in general in the albums not just to perform but the best sounding
By the way, lyrically I’ve always thought One Spark was about youth and wanting to keep that feeling of youthfulness forever. Don’t let the “spark” die. Which makes sense with the name of the album. I don’t think it’s as vague as you say.
Right. I think there are clear intentions in the song and anything vague is actually a sign of maturity in their songwriting. I also interpret One Spark to be song about maintaining not only their youth, but their legacy by keeping their initial passion burning.
I feel like he was talking concept-wise because I also felt like One Spark was underwhelming even if I knew the message behind it. Unlike Special, it seems to me that it lacked in music, concept and MV alike (as you could previously grasp the Twice essence with their former releases). The budget and the storytelling of the MV didn't feel as complete as their previous ones but personally, I think it was mostly musically-wise that Twice lost most of their charms...even if I enjoyed some of its parts, it sounded like a basic sound?
I do want to add that weirdly what they've done has worked. I've heard Set Me Free and Moonlight Sunrise in Target, the mall, and in restaurants. While I agree that Twice isn't doing their concept change great and honestly it feels like a lot of kpop companies don't seem to understand what actually works in a Western market, it's interesting to note that Twice did pretty successfully branch into the Western market
THANK YOU FOR THIS VIDEO AND YOUR OPINION!!!! as a huge and obsessed once, i was trying to understand what was causing this downfall or at least the decline in popularity. it was kind of my goal in life almost xD what you shared really makes sense, thank you for this! some people in jype need to hear this
you put exactly into words what is my problem with what i like to call musical "degeneration" from twice and other groups. to me, all of their releases after 'more & more' seemed like unispired versions of their overall identity and it only got more apparent with time. the difference between japanese releases vs western releases to me it's that when a group drops a japanese single it's made clear prior to the release date this is part of a different universe within the group's sonical landscape, while with western releases, more often than not, the shift is portraited like something natural to their musical identity when it's clearly the opposite in most cases. i'm still pissed off at sm til this day for trying to convince everybody that 'life's too short' was a natural turn of events on aespa's catalog, as if it's something that the fans that liked the aespacore concept and metallic sounds where looking for, rather than a lame attempt at reaching a broader western audience.
i definitely felt this way as a moa who got into txt because of temptation, only to have that album followed up with Do it like that and then chasing that feeling. Freefall has some really good b-sides besides dilt but it got completely eclipsed by how generic ctf was as a song and mv. I’m glad that tomorrow was a more korean focused cb
As a moa, I had the exact same problem. Temptation was an amazing album, which did well both in Korea and internationally. It baffles me how, after seeing the success of Sugar Rush Ride (a primarly korean song), BH's decision for TXT was to release Dilt and CTF....these 2 songs stray away from TXT's unique sound and were such forced attempts to cater to the west.
The problem isn't with westernization or english songs. The problem comes from fans that can't handle the fact that these artists need to be artists and want to try new sounds, new genres, and new themes. It's natural for many musicians to want to step out of their comfort zone and do something different. To many fans, if they don't like the song or theme or sound....they will completely give up or tear down the group instead of thinking "I don't vibe with this...maybe I will for the next one". They also don't buy the albums and listen to all the songs to hear how they have experimented and how they still stayed the same. Fans also want to keep idols and groups in their debut mindset and forget that these idols and artists are growing up around different sounds and just growing up period. Groups are supposed to stay in their little boxes that fans have kept them in and not let them out. That is the main problem.
Totally what I have been saying right along...WELL stated, because the narrow minded fandom's think.which is Not Their Call "Do not want their group to step out off their Box" because if they do They Feel they are losing control . There is not an artist around that is going make it , if they do not change things up from time to Time ..... Got to stop the "Cookie Cutter Concept .....
I became a Twice fan over the last couple years and have been enjoying their older stuff and their newer stuff. With You-th is an album I've been playing on repeat.
For me bts never changed cuz they never stuck to a sound. You can see that from the beginning of their career, they did a hip hop trilogy, then they changed to a more youthful sound with hyyh trilogy, then R&B in the love Yourself trilogy, and then map of the soul: 7, persona, they were trying for something darker, and then they did a more pop sound in dynamite and BE, which so many people forget it was in the middle of two English singles butter and dynamite and then came ptd. They never changed cuz they never stuck to one sound, they were experiencing with their music the whole time. Bts themselves said that they weren't going to release the three English singles and BE. Map of the soul:7 was supposed to be the last album before enlisting in the army but then covid came, that's when they got dynamite and released it. But even after the success of those three songs, i think they themselves felt lost and began to question their music group identity(we can see that too in map of the soul: 7 , in black swan) as they didn't expect this success. And i think the company played a big role in this, like after they saw the success of dynamite they pushed them to release more( not sure if this true, but come on, it's hype that were talking about). And after that they released proof which had only 3 new songs, but those songs were like" what old bts felt like" according to kpop fans.
And for black pink, i don't think that they have enough songs to change their sounds even after 7 years in their career( even tho i see some people wanting something new from them cuz their getting bored of the same concept) maybe if they release more songs. And for new jeans, they are like new, they are like 2 years old group i think, but at some point i think you wil see them changing their concept.
they weren't pushed to release anything that's the only thing I would say you're incorrect about but everything else is a slay friend ! Oh and Proof is an anthology album that's why it only has 3 new tracks and the third disc is all demos for already released songs with a few unreleased songs (quotation mark and young love). the third disc is only officially available in the physical copy, they're not on streaming platforms but all the tracks from the 3rd disc can be found on yt and other places so yeah. like Hobi's demo for DNA is such a banger also jump demo, boy in luv demo while boyz with fun demo is so silly and hilarious 😭😭 the guys rly were doing anything in that studio lmaoo
@@g100-w6j i said i wasn't sure cuz i don't know too, i assumed it cuz look at fucking hype and also ( not sure but suga said a thing about that they had to release butter, not sure tho) you slay too ( don't know what does slay mean even after i searched it )
I disagree lot people are not get boring music with Blackpink if they did we be talking about right and won't be most girls group on Spotify and UA-cam without a comeback in two year Yeah that is optional but they lot people to Ironic songs from 80s still like we are the champions and will rock from you said they boring song every hell people still listen to Elvis but what you saying his song play to make you to remember if a iconic songs and Blackpink you can said all song iconic how they did them in a way you going to remember them how they sing because they are Legends and Global icons and they song Legends in way trouch people in way Like D4,Kill this love Lovesickgirl Stay and More they song did people remember those in 20 years I going all say but this but you have your option is not true or facts but I tell my opinion on this remember everything you need is on the ground
funnily enough, in reference to your video on le sserafim's live performances, i feel like westernization is one of the main reasons why their performance at coachella failed. the musical trends that le sserafim draw from, particularly their most recent music, are not ones that easily translate to a kpop performance style without modification. plenty of kpop idols are mid or even below average singers, but when balanced with the maximalized production of the instrumental and complex choreography, it makes up for where vocals may lack. a lot of the songs that are considered quintessential kpop have this quality of spectacle about them that's almost theatrical. im pretty sure giselle of aespa once said something along the lines of "the reason music videos and performances are so important is that you're really only getting half the story from only streaming the song." it's really similar to how pop songs often can't function as musical theatre numbers without modifying the arrangement, because musical theatre numbers are intended to tell part of a story, so they heavily emphasize the lyrics and the instrumental being reflective of the emotion the character is feeling. it's why people have panned Disney's Wish so hard. the songs just feel like regular pop songs without any effort put into having the music tell a story. le sserafim's discography, by contrast to typical kpop, is very minimalistic in order to reflect current music trends in r&b/pop. the issue with that is when you combine kpop-trained vocalists with a style of music (r&b) that has a minimalistic instrumental on PURPOSE in order to emphasize the vocals, you end up with le sserafim's vocals sticking out like a sore thumb. going back to the musical theatre comparison, it's like hearing a broadway vocalist like Idina Menzel sing a pop song, the inflection and overacted emotion she puts into it feels so corny and out of place in your typical pop song because it's not intended to tell a story on a live stage the way theatre is. if we're going further and further into the comparisons of kpop to musical theatre, i feel like blackpink works for the same reasons that a modern musical like hamilton works, because while both play on western pop/rap soundscapes, they're still playing on the conventions of their mother medium, ie blackpink utilizing typical kpop structure in both the instrumental and the general song structure itself and hamilton still using theatre storytelling. i don't think it's a coincidence that eve psyche and the bluebeard's wife is one of le sserafim's breakway hits, because it's probably their most kpop-y sounding song to date. while i know people tried to make aespa comparisons with that song i honestly think le sserafim would be better off with that type of music, because it's not that their vocals as a whole group are remarkably bad by kpop standards, they're just bad for the type of music HYBE keeps making them do.
this is such a well explored and thoughtful perspective, wow. you have to be one of the few people i have seen through this spark of westernization discourse to not only present something new that is relevant to the conversation, but is thought-provoking and takes into consideration room for nuance! i have nothing to add i just had to compliment how good this was lol
@arimes31 thank you lolol honestly I've been a kpop fan for years and years and the recent trends in kpop have had me scratching my head as to WHY kpop feels different nowadays and after going on a musical theatre kick while my faves weren't making music it clicked
Really like your insight. Their new groups are even worse. I watched a couple of ILLIT encores and look...I don't wanna beat a dead horse but they are one stage above Le Sserafim - the non-existent vocals don't even matter anymore bc there's nothing to sing. The whole EP is under 9 minutes I think to begin with, and they're stuck with a repetetive 2 minute song that has like 5 lines of actual lyrics and is meant for Tiktok (the whole album was released as a spedup version like a week later plus the obligatory remixes so that should tell you everything). Tbf they have one ok singer I wanna say that and Youngseo might've been good but this is literally a Le Sserafim situation where they thought 3 ok singers is enough but then oops one got kicked out and the other two are getting worse bc Hybe apparently dgaf about vocals AT ALL. And yes Chaewon did ok but 1/5 is not enough and who knows how her vocals will develop under Hybe. Just look at Yunjin. Without getting too much into the current Hybe drama - I'm not up to speed and really dislike MHJ - the CEO was definitely trying to create NJ 2.0 but on steroids. And from what I've heard at least NJ can sing a little but does it matter? Both of the 3 gg produce music that is either soulless, made for Tiktok fame, heavily autotuned or all of the above. I blame Fifty Fifty (or their CEO) for this mess by going viral but the sweet irony of the 3 kicked out members being great singers and singing their debut stage without backtrack is not lost on me. Sometimes the universe has a mean sense of humor.
@@moongirl8807 yeah i feel like illit is the other half of the equation here. they have the issue of playing on the like, lo-fi/bedroom pop sound which is fine for easy listening or putting in the background of a video but its the opposite of what a kpop performance needs to be. granted i think there are artists who play into the more lo-fi style that can work in kpop but that would require HYBE producers to tweak the songs to make them more gradiose, more layering, etc. which they don't seem to care to do. it's sad because illit are clearly young girls who have dreams of being idols but they're not being trained properly and taking the fall for something that isn't their fault.
I think it is crazy to have an English pre-release and Korean title track but then make an English version of the Korean title track... Like the effort is lost on me especially when neither of the English songs were able to chart or do numbers streaming-wise. If you're gonna sacrifice quality, concept, and art for numbers & popularity you should go all out for promotions. Instead, they let both versions fizzle out only promoting the vague Korean title track on music shows which also did not do numbers. Something needs to change marketing-wise because the potential "Set me free" and "I Got You" had so much potential. I don't think BTS lost their plot because they never had any kind of concept. The only thing I can think of is that people liked their darker depressing meaning songs and did not like their positive upbeat meaning songs which is just in the eye of the holder. Their English singles still possessed meaning plus they changed their concept, look, and sound each comeback. Some people can never be satisfied in every era people said they preferred the previous BTS. In my opinion, 3 English singles cannot rupture a long discography of Korean singles especially when the fruit of the albums remains high quality and cohesive. In Twice's case, their main problem is promotion and connecting with their audience so many people did not even know Twice had a comeback. They only know that twice has been on tour for a long time. Also all of BTS' English songs were heavily promoted in South Korea and Japan as well as the US, they charted insanely well & hold records their Korean songs don't. It is just a matter of people hating on BTS with their 3 English singles they did not really sacrifice anything and remained unaffected in their career. The English singles even gave them a huge boost of popularity and recognition that extended to their Korean songs.
@kf5338BTS was never a group to stay the same lol. Each and every era of bts was something different and experimental. Their shift to lighter music came at the right time I believe, Dynamite, PTD, and butter definitely were songs of the summer for me and a lot of people.
I'm glad people are actually talking about this topic. Fans (specially new fans) go crazy when you talk about westernization. Then they say "it's just pop in Korean" nah babe, you know damn well what we're talking about.
No, but it's still pop whether it's K-pop or J-Pop. Why is the JYP training rooms named Micahel Jackson and Madonna? Those are western artists. Did you know Red Velvets 'Dumb Dumb sounds a lot like Jessie J's Bang Bang? Also Girls Generation 'Party', sounds like Katy Perry's California Gurls as it's using the same chord progression ? Both were released in 2015, Bang Bang was also realesed in 2015 but California Gurls was released in 2009. But yeah, I guess you're right, people don't know what they're talking about.
@@imtherealone.6268 using samples and admiring superstars are a part of music industry. The problem isn’t in making “pop like music”. The video creator talked about the main problem. By westernization fans mean that when a company tries to break into the western market but in that process they lose or mess up the group’s original identity.
@@blossomspringbloom Do you know "when a companies tries to break into the western markets" are called? It's a business move as these labels are also businesses. And to be frank, an artists image change all the time, it has nothing to do with the West. Lol. It's actually called 'times change'. Even if companies didn't break into the Western market, their image would change regardless because as an artist, I'd imagine they want to try new concepts. Do you expect an artist to stay in a certain era for the rest of their career? I'd imagine they'd get tired of it and want to try something new. I don't see what that has to do with western fans. The two don't go together. Seems like western fans are being used a scapegoat if you want me to be honest. Gotta blame someone, right? Let's blame everyone BUT the artist.....
As a Blackpink fan I don't find Twice's westernization as an exactly bad thing. Yeh, it's a bit selfish, but from my point of view it's sort of salvation. Biggest problem of BP is lack of content. 28+- songs in 7 years and almost zero of other group activities is laughable. Yes it's part of strategy, but its not enaught to ... stay conected. There are other groups which try to lure us away with similar concept, but mostly they are newbies, so I don't find them as interesting as older idols. So when I look at Twice 5th world tour concert (Furuoka day one for example) I get everithing what I'm looking for. Amazing show, talented and gorgeous idols with with a tangible background in their prime and catchy songs.
i just hope that the kpop companies realises that the global audience listens to kpop because it’s kpop, it’s unique and different from the western music, the reason why kpop wasn’t that big before is bcs people did not know abt it, as it gained more attention, it gained more fans, like i’m sure that there’s not a single kpop fan that doesn’t like songs like fantastic baby, tell me, ring ding dong etc. i am an indian and for me, hindi music, english music and korean music are all different, and i would like if it stays that way
i think another important point is styling, both set me free and one spark seem to just follow current trends and don't really have a specific direction (one spark specially, it feels like the only outfits that really suit the mv concept are the red and black outfits and the sparkly silver and black outfits that weren't used during promotions). this was a problem for twice before they became global (with eras like yes or yes and likey), but when you have most groups following western fashion trends and your concept isn't strong enough to innovate on them, you end up with outfits with expensive flashy pieces that don't really fit with the rest of the collections so it just looks messy and eventually will be very forgettable. i love both set me free and one spark and their albums respectively, but as eras i think they will be always outshined by their english singles.
see, while i understand that the "concept change" works from the korean to japanese market - that's because most kpop groups have little to no overlap between their korean and japanese projects (bar any japanese versions but even then those are usually released after the popularity of the korean version is already established). twice's japanese discography is drastically different from their korean, mainly in part to the fact jyp has essentially watered down their korean discography and pivoted to, for lack of a better term, "musical mush" to appeal to everybody and nobody simultaneously, while their japanese discography is still unique and fresh because warner music is well aware of who their target demographic is... japanese consumers. i think if jyp wants twice to really break into the western world, have them take the same route they did for their japanese releases. sign to a western label, release "english albums" rather than randomly placing pre-release singles and english versions in their korean projects. keep their western ventures seperate from their korean and japanese ones.
I don't agree with the idea that translation is a problematic aspect of westernization. Companies could if they want shift the meaning of the lyrics during the translation process or they can actually try to communicate something deeper with the help of professional translators. Great works of literature have been translated to and from different languages so I dont see how this can't happen with a kpop song with a more specific message. I think the sound is the main problem. The western music market has preferences that do not align with those of the korean kpop music market. This means that some kpop acts will change their sound too drastically to appeal to the west. Other kpop groups like new jeans and blackpink to a certain degree debut with just the right sound and can so more easily appeal to the west and other parts of the world.
Wait. How does BTS “suffer” from “Westernization”? Note that I don’t consider their English trilogy as “westernization” but as their gap year project. Since their cancelled Map Of The Soul (MOTS) world tour 2020, and their album Map Of The Soul: Seven was supposed to be their last album, and their last activities, before leaving for the military. A lot of kpop groups may serve as DOORS INTO KPOP for THE GENERAL PUBLIC. But BTS, specifically through their English Trilogy, was a door INTO THE MAINSTREAM for KPOP. "Westernisation"? You and many others are asking the wrong question. Although they made it big in the US BEFORE Dynamite, BTS blew up in the mainstream consciousness AFTER their English trilogy. So. This is the point in time some kpop fans considered to be the start of their “westernization”. A starting point many kpop fans can’t seem to agree on, as they confused misalignment of personal tastes to real world degradations of integrity or quality. I, as a mainstream music consumer, see no characteristically different qualities in BTS overall discography from 2013 - 2022, that is significant enough to be called a complete turn around. Especially when compared to most Kpop groups. While at the same time, BTS produced a significantly unique musical product compared to the rest of Kpop. Which is always what people seem to pick on whenever they see fit. But they been the way they have been, musically, since 2013? Again, as someone new to Kpop, I am perplexed at what I see as an overstatement of their “suffering from westernization”, and all the conversations around it, because I simply don’t see any “suffering”. BTS have not suffered in terms of their musical growth, if judging from their most recent solo projects. BTS have not suffered in terms of the growth of their fandom. The fandom have grown both in numbers, and in terms of fans from a wide variety of musical genres. Which makes me think that this conversation touches on something more sensitive, and it has nothing to do with music: IDENTITY. And NOT that of the artists, but of the CONSUMERS. What do you think?
I agree, wow this comment is very thought provoking. Being that as you said, if I'm a fan of a group and that group drops a English song, which I consider 'boring, horrible and western.' Does that make my identity as die-hard fan, invalid? Of course there's nothing wrong with having a taste for certain K-pop sounds but there are mostly western genres mixed in with K-pop, so I'm just trying to grasp? As being a fan of that group is now a huge part of my identity. Is that what you're saying? I'm genuinely interested and intrigued with your comment!
i mean if you’re considering their english releases as a “gap year” it just sounds like you don’t wanna admit that they did suffer from westernization. If you don’t wanna add those songs in their discography but throw them to the side as a gap project then it sounds like you just don’t wanna admit it
well let me be honest with you their western songs just sound extremely awful and they lack soul if you would tell an ai to make you basic pop music this it what they would sound like theres no creativity or passion or originality
Twice are powerhouses in the industry even tho their new music isn’t popular anymore. That’s what they have it’s a loyal fan base. I don’t think twice are really aiming to do something new like they did 2018-2020, it’s exactly the same for bts
although i agree with what you said, there’s a lot of issues black pink have. almost all of their title tracks are the same concepts and the lyrics are so incredibly similar to their previous songs- it’s almost as if they’re scared to branch out. though i know bp fans love their bad-girl concept, i think it’s stumped their growth as artists. when they do come together as a group, which is rarity these days but isn’t necessarily their fault, we can expect the same music and the same concept. nothing new nothing fresh.
i love twice. i liked them in their aegyo-core era cuz the bubblegum pop was just infectious, but i fell in love with their transition to fancy up until talk and talk. this era was also the time when i started listening to their albums as a whole along with the title track. for some reason the latest two releases mentioned in the video just hasn’t connected with me at all, and it’s sad cuz i love the group but i’m not enjoying the music as much. i haven’t been able to fully listen to the albums as well since the title track just doesn’t entice me to dive deeper. hopefully jyp gets a grip cuz why waste their renewal with just okay releases.
This is such a cool analysis as a ONCE. The idea that the return to form with Talk That Talk because of it possibly being their swan song gave me CHILLS!
I guess why JYPE is pushing retro-synth pop sound to promote to the west is it's because they mastered it. They started from I can't stop which was a massive hit. Followed by Baby Blue Love, The Feels (well accepted by the western audience) to SET ME FREE. I just thought that it may work that way. To promote the group with the sound they mastered and the sound that may appeal to the western audience and TREND at the same time. (2020-2021 was the year of synth-80s pop). That's just my analyzation. hehe...
TWICE is the K-Pop girl group with the most: - Sales (Korea, Japan, USA) - #1 hits (Korea, Japan, USA) - Streams (Korea, Japan, USA) - Daesang awards - Total awards - Music certifications - Revenue (all-time) Until any other K-Pop girl group matches this, TWICE will remain the queens of K-POP!
Nowadays music awards have lost their value . Because companies like hybe buys then . Although twice won all these awards in the past but nowadays awards have no value. But they have good sales though!
I was surprised that the success of The Feels didn't show JYP that twice's original concept would work just fine in a western market. It's the most typically Twice song they've released since 2019!
Yep. My biggest problem with SMF and One Spark is to me personally they're so boring and I think that's by design to appeal to the West. There's little to no concept. You can be mature and still interesting. But I think the company knows the group has achieved all they can in Korea and has now settled for releasing elevator music they hope will be played on US radio lol
Imo as an army i think that the context of the english trilogy is very important to note before criticizing bts's "westernization" it wasnt really an attempt to become big but actually a gift given to them none of the 3 english songs were written with the members. Its also fair to understand that their plans were kinda thrown out with the pandemic (tour and then enlistment which ended up not happening like they planned) they were so burnt out and just wanted to push out something happy after BE
god thank you. the way he was talking ab the 3 eng singles in this video was driving me crazy. twice and bts arent even close to comparable in this context bc bts were doing throwaway gift songs that were easy, unattached, and impersonal as a time filler while they figured out how to get their derailed plans back on track after the pandemic hit. it wasn't at all a concerted effort to gain traction in the west like it is with twice, because bts gained western traction with their own signature sound way back in 2017. westernization did not influence bts' career at all, ffs they started their group w an inherently western musical sound - hiphop
To add to this, he says that the singles harmed BTS image in the general kpop fanbase, but idk about that. Does the general kpop fanbase even really matter in the case of BTS.? Their fanbase only grew and is stronger than ever.
I don't understand this lol. Much of K-pop's success in the United States is because of most Korean acts employing either hip-hop or EDM as their sonic base but Twice made their bubblegum sound attract Western appeal. TWICE matured so their music matures with them but they've always stayed true to their roots. They always kept their bubblegum sound while other acts went for western music. They have a super diverse discography so I don't agree with this narrative at all. TWICE has always been one of the few major acts NOT to go for a western sound.
well i dont understand YOUR comment because... first of all twice did not attract much western appeal with their bubblegum sound (it was popular in korea and japan), twice started doing much better in the west AFTER their shift away from their bubblegum sound. they had a shift around 2019 away from the cutesy concepts and bubblegum titles to more mature concepts and...more westernized pop sounding titles and singles. they have also released a lot of english songs and english versions of songs since then- all in the same effort and west goal. (twice actually have the most english songs out of all the big groups.) from among the top kpop acts i would actually argue twice had the biggest shift to a western aimed sound and appeal. twice do have a diverse discography, but you are clearly in denial and or biased if you cant see that their shift in sound wasn't just because they matured, but because they are also trying to target a market that they didnt initially aim for. also, i hate the kpop "staying to their roots" discourse because it implies that groups who try out sounds they arent known for, or intentionally aim for certain music markets...have lost their identity, which is straight up disrespectful and dismissive of the groups work, but also nonsensical. besides, kpop has always been influenced by two major music industries, the western and jpop- thats where the roots of kpop itself lie anyway.
As someone who only properly got into Kpop in 2022, I have a bit of a different take on BTS and TWICE. With BTS, I casually liked Boy With Luv a lot when it was on the radio (I also liked Halsey's voice on the chorus so I was exactly the target demo) after never really liking BTS' original sound when some friends played it for me a couple times. It was a pristine work of pop perfection, and I think that applies to Fancy and I Can't Stop Me as well. I think the thing with westernization is largely the same challenge with any sound change. If you're doing something new, your chances of misstepping are higher and segments of your audience won't like the new sound. That's why I think I'm not a big fan of Butter, and it's why JYP has also struggled to get Itzy a GP hit as well despite no translation dilemma. I do agree that simplicity for the sake of translation is a mistake in the case of Set Me Free. I think the solution would've been to just commit to Moonlight Sunrise though as the main title track. I think a lot of groups have made the mistake of too many title tracks the past couple years. Even if Set Me Free had better lyrics, it's still kind of in the middle between Korean and international tastes. I think a big difference between groups like Blackpink compared to TWICE is that Blackpink started with international friendly sound, but also that Blackpink doesn't have enough songs to need to make that much of a sound change. I think TWICE was already facing diminishing returns with Talk That Talk and they can't go back to the sound of Look At Me anymore. Ultimately I do think TWICE is kind of at their legacy act stage if their careers. They're not getting the Korean GP back, so they should've committed to Moonlight Sunrise as the title track with Set Me Free as perhaps a promoted b-side without the pressure of having an English version and needing to be catchy for streaming. That's just my personal preference though. I'm sure others will have their own tastes.
While I found Set Me Free and the album Ready To Be very underwhelming, I feel like the With YOU-th album is much better in terms of balancing the core of TWICE while appealing to the west. Promoting I Got You and One Spark together really showed the bond, time, and care TWICE have for each other. I will say i have still not listened to the English version of One Spark and generally for most kpop groups don't listen to English versions of songs
I get what you’re saying and I agree on all parts except the part where Set Me Free and One Spark don’t add to Twices identity. To me they completely glue their identity together. Because as they mature, they want to be more free in all they do and stick together with that one spark of passion and friendship. I think those songs are more personal ❤
Wasn't kpop always supposed to be westernized? kpop existed only after getting inspired by pop . Like 2000's pop songs sounds totally different from today's pop songs . I feel that's what happening to kpop groups. Nowadays songs are trying to sound different from 2000s songs
i love watching your vids (even when i don't entirely agree with what's being said) bc you present your point so succinctly and calmly. it's refreshing to not have a k-pop youtuber screaming their opinion bc they feel that's the only way to make us think the same way you do and you're always respectful about the groups you're talking about. i agree with taste of love being primed for west promotions without maybe intending to but it might be bc it's my fave EP from them lol
I'm a fairly new fan of TWICE, only getting into them in late 2022, and I agree 100%, I may not have been a fan yet, but I love most of their older stuff. There's nothing bad about the new releases, I mean I love I GOT You,but I much prefer everything before Eyes Wide Open.
Talk that talk and alcohol free were PERFECT releases for me. Honestly I wish div3 would realize that onces like twice because of their unique sound, and those 2 releases were a genius mix between twice’s authentic image and their maturation from cutesy aegyo songs. If we wanted western songs we’d just listen to western artists :/
honestly a while after this i wanna say strategy shouldve been a single instead of an album they shouldve put a different tt for strategy also i prefer twice before 2021 i dont hate there current discography its still good rn but like there 2019-2021 era was peak twice
There are at least 3 major misunderstandings in this analysis: 1. Although Twice was heavily leaning towards cute concept in the begining, they have been very versatile for quite some time, flowing very comfortably through a decent range of genres and gradually maturing their cute image, not replacing it entirely (that felt natural as the girls grew up, didn't feel forced at all). So the "harming their core" argument cannot be a thing unless you are deliberately trying to gaslight everyone into believing that they've never been versatile until just very recently, and that they are like a fish out of water not being cute 18 y.o. girls anymore. 2. One Spark is one of the most straight-forward, easy to understand songs in their entire discografy. It's just a celebration... while "I got you" was a reflection upon their bond through the hard times of their journey, "One Spark" is complementary to the storytelling, celebrating their journey as profesionals with a very supportive fandom. Celebration concept might be rare, but it's appropiate for groups with a massive trajectory, pretty much like SNSD's "Forever 1". 3. You really try to enforce the narrative that all the discografy, or at least all the singles, must have a straighforward meaning and a continuity, but that's just closeminded. They are performers and artists, their job is to produce something beautiful for their audience to enjoy while feeling as comfortable as they can, in order to enjoy the journey themselves and don't burn out. This "losing the plot" argument is lowkey very snob to be fair. By the end of the video, it was pretty clear that you come from a bitter mindset.
I couldn't finish the video... You probably really tried hard to find some redeeming quality, but to me, the message was wrong and too repetitive. ^^" Most Twice songs are pretty unique, especially title tracks, so I'm not really sure what he was going on about Westernization. Maybe I don't know the Western market well enough, but I don't remember hearing songs that refreshing in a while~ Even in their more mature songs, they always have that sweet, positive and lively sound that doesn't suit well Western artists.
It's the same case as girl's generation. As a successful gg who has pretty much done everything there is in the Korean market, they're going to try and expand. Being one of the longest running girlgroups currently, it is bound for them to want to change styles. It is very exhausting for a group to keep sticking to a working formula esp. as artists so I could kind of understand why TWICE are experimenting with different concepts.
i'm speaking more on bts since you covered more about the direction of twice's music but it's important to note that bts themselves knew that the direction of their music as a group was getting murky following their 3 consecutive english singles (putting aside BE, a korean album that they didn't do physical promotions for) especially considering that they didn't do a whole lot of solo work before that (aside from their rap line). that's exactly why they decided to each do solo work right as they went to enlist one by one. (if you're an army, you'd know i'm referring to the festa video of 2022) so we can't fully tell what their music will sound like when they come back after 2025 because they haven't actually released a regular korean album as a group since 2021 (and their solo work is not the best basis bc well, if you followed them all, they're all so drastically different).
yeah, and maybe a bit off topic but dynamite and ptd were released to support people in the pandemic, by bringing a fun and playful vibe. dynamite was included in BE and bts themselves can explain its message and meanings. i honestly don't know why a lot of people are calling these songs "controversial" and "losted the bts core"
@matongchannel1883 yeah thats as well. the english singles were all released between 2020-2021 and are only maybe 0.0003% of their discography. there was definitely an agenda when they released those (for the difficult times we were in)
Thank you so much for talking about this!! I swear I felt like I was crazy for all of a sudden pulling away from twice while it seemed like others didn’t.
BTS didn't suffer from westernization. In fact they grew from it while keeping their Korean music sonically distinct, at least as a group. Jungkook and Jimin went in a more traditional pop music route for their solo work, which is perfectly fine.
yup, many kpoppies do not know what westernization actually means. BTS never had a specific sound or concept like Twice. As for Twice, I think some onces need to accept that Twice have deviated from their old sound, they’re older now.Like I love twice, but are we going to forget all the hate they got when they were doing cute concepts? Just because it’s in trend rn won’t mean they’ll go back.
Wow, you've managed to so eloquently talk about a problem I've kind of been struggling to formulate for a while. This is so extremely well thought out and informative.
I don't disagree with this general argument, but it seems strange not to discuss The Feels more: it was their first song only released in english, and the amount of times they performed it on western talk shows and such almost mimicked BTS around 2017-2018. Is the darker image westernisation, or are the western releases used as a safe area for Twice experimenting with their concept and sound as they mature? BTS I think is much clearer: aside from covid-related 'losing the plot', they were trying to see if changing to this overly poppy sound for their English releases would increase American radio-play and maybe bag them a grammy. It was pretty clear from their interviews.
can you tell me which interview that made you have this idea? because dynamite and permission to dance were released back then to brighten and motivate international armys in the pandemic. they both have a very, very specific message, the bts members had talked about its message themselves on interviews, which means they knew what they were singing about. and if you notice, ptd also have sign language. that's the interviews i watched which contained bts talking about dynamite.
A well thought out, well written, well structured, well-argued essay on a complex topic! Love your specificity and the emphasis on 'lyrical intent', a most under-discussed aspect in most English K-pop songs discourse... (At least for the rare observant fans and seasoned industry professionals) the elephant in the room - or the missing link, are dedicated adaptation songwriters which are a whole other level of writers above generic/stock English lyricists. So you are right, westernization/ English songs are not the problem, but ambiguous/absent intent. I made a video to attempt to communicate that fact to K producers and that's the best I could do.
as mentioned by others, the girls expressed a desire to make different music. that alone accounts for the tone shift. as for the lyric argument, i don't really buy it. twice's other songs weren't really complex poetry. you say that the newer tracks are ambiguous because they are needed to be translated but i can describe almost all of their singles, ready? Either a non-specific love song with empty platitudes or songs about empowerment and friendship. There. pretty sure i just did all of their singles based on lyrical content. I like twice, but you're suggesting there is more there than there is. it's just not that deep.
I have to disagree - there’s certainly more to it than just non-specific love or friendship/empowerment songs: Scientist is a love song that lyrically plays with the idea of love not needing a scientific formula, Likey discusses expressing yourself via social media and self-consciousness, even Set Me Free is specific in asking the subject of the story to let their inhibitions about love go so they can be in a relationship freely. I agree the songs don’t scratch much beneath the surface of what they’re talking about, but a big idea behind what I was discussing is that they don’t *need* to be overly complex. I believe pop music benefits from not being required to overthink things. Moreover, I tried as best as possible to outline that their change in style is not the problem I’m addressing, nor is it that the songs are being translated by default. It’s how those things are currently impacting the conceptual intention that used to be delivered with TWICE’s earlier projects. I completely agree that it is “not that deep,” but that doesn’t really matter in this discussion. Even the most shallow of songs can benefit from still having intention behind them in terms of concept
@@choujimi agree to disagree. You sound like you want it both ways. You're ok with songs not being that deep, i agree, that's fine. Your complaint is that some of the newer songs are kind of ambiguous and empty, ok sure. Where we disagree is that i think their songs always kind of were, and you think they weren't. If you take away the videos most of twice's singles are painfully simple love songs aimed at a young audience. Which again, totally fine. But about the same writing quality as the songs you appear to dislike from their modern work.
@@reallifeistoflat I see your points, and the longer this discussion has gone on, I feel like it’s hard to fully explain my perspective on this - I don’t believe I want it “both ways,” I just look forward to some kind of intention behind the concept of even the simplest of songs. What is Love is an extremely simple song, yet conceptually has a very solid premise around the idea of love being drawn from the movies and TV shows that young people consume. It’s not deep nor is it complex, but it is there with obvious intention behind it. It’s that kind of conceptual depth that (quite literally) gets lost in translation for songs like Set Me Free, which are both lyrically and conceptually ambiguous by the end of the product In the end, and as I said in the video, it’s all subjective and based on personal music taste haha - this is just the way I personally look forward to projects in kpop and music
One big danger of "westernization" of K-Pop is that K-Pop artists loose what made them unique and popular in the first place. The western market is already full of western artists who are REALLY good / experienced / established in making western pop for the western audience. But existing international K-Pop fans most likely came to K-Pop because it was different. So for K-Pop artists to imitate western pop, making "all english" songs and changing their identity for promoting in the west seems like a dangerous strategy. Sure, K-Pop always was heavily influenced by western music to begin with and has many western composers / writers (especially today). But K-Pop (including Blackpink or New Jeans) didn't just "imitate" western pop. The Korean labels / producers still filtered / mixed it with / through a Korean perspective, injecting Korean (music- and idol-)culture as well as Korean language, creating something "new" as a result. Of course groups like Blackpink or New Jeans naturally have it "easier" in the west than for example Twice because their existing Korean identity already is more compatible with western audiences, but I'm skeptical that changing your identity for different markets is a good idea. For Twice: Maybe go even more all in with your Korean identity to stand out more? I'm surely biased as international K-Pop fan and at least for the Japanese market changing their identity and releasing all Japanese songs sadly seems to work. So long-term it might work for the western market as well? Maybe you win enough new fans that loosing some old fans (and your core identity) is (financially) worth it in the end ? I don't know. That said... there is still a lot of K-Pop in K-Pop and more great K-Pop artists than ever on the market.
Blackpink and NewJeans are more popular in the West than here in Asia where I now live now. They don't even make Top 30 in sales in the vast majority of Asia. Probably need a chinese and indian artist onboard to do better as they account for 60% of Asia's population and 40% of the world's population. All other markets dwarfed by the size & sales value of the chinese consumer market.
@@davidrichards1741 yeah... China surely has the biggest theoretical potential that could dwarf everyone else. But that market has his very own unique barriers of entry for foreign artists. Currently USA is still dominating (although not growing as fast as other markets). I'm always surprised that Germany (where I'm from) still is Top 4 (before China). According to the IFPI Global Music Report, the top 10 music markets in the world in 2023 where 1. USA 2. Japan 3. UK 4. Germany 5. China 6. France 7. South Korea 8. Canada 9. Brazil 10. Australia EDIT: Another fun statistic. Only four K-Pop girl groups crossed the 2+ million mark in overall sales for an album... Blackpink being the highest among them, but also aespa, IVE and now New Jeans (not yet certified). Twice of course released so much more albums in total than those groups, so overall only Twice and Blackpink make it into the Top 15 Best-Selling K-Pop groups "of all times". Otherwise boy groups still perform better in album sales. For example BTS, Seventeen and Stray Kids with 5+ million for an album.
i think of the factors why blackpink and new jeans is more loved by westerners is because they have proper english speaking members. the pronunciation of words when they sing and interviews when they promote themselves or insta lives, the english speaking really makes the western fans connect more with them
depends on how you see it. pop is a global genre so being attached to the specific sounds of a different market is pretty valid. but it's kinda like asking isn't american pop swedish. like you can make that argument but i'm not sure it's the best semantic position when "american pop" is a pretty useful term to discuss the specific tastes of that market.
This makes so much sense, I was really let down by set me free and one spark never comes to my mind when I want to listen to twice however I do listen to both English releases and b sides from these albums. Twice has managed to build a western fan base even before these two albums and JYPE needs to recognise this and stick to making music that is true to them
I don't think you really understood what he meant. He isn't advocating Twice to make music true to them because in the video he says Moonlight Sunrise is one of their best track. Now is Moonlight Sunrise true to Twice?? No, not at all. It's the further away from Twice than any other song they've made. Yet he considers that a good song not because it's "true" to them, but rather it's a more "focused" songs with more "meaningful" lyrics.
I have to get out of my feelings for this topic, and I agree definitely with you, Choujimi. It's as if they don't know how to connect their message and concept as group to English in a digestible manner for both western and eastern fans. It's always one or the other. I LOVED moonlight sunrise and I, as a westerner can definitely see it's not your standard Twice song. I definitely think if done in a boring or incorrect manner, westernization can be bad for K-pop, but if done correctly it can bring a butt-load of new fans.
I feel like a bad Once saying I didn’t like One Spark but you put into words why! It was too generic and therefore identitiless. I much prefer songs with MEANING. Twice can do it, they’ve done it before. I have hope that Strategy will have a stronger identity.
lol. As if their earlier song have meaning? Come on. One Spark is not any more generic than songs like TT, Knock Knock Cheer up, or Likey. They all were generic. They're all about the idea of love or being loved without going in depth of any MEANING. Sure songs like Feel Special have meaning, but if you look at majority of their earlier hits that were written in Korean for Koreans, they have very very little meaning.
i think another huge problem is that companies just play it way too safe with western releases. some of the best kpop music and concepts are the ones that are a little bit quirky, fun, unexpected, or off the wall. kpop HAS to innovate to grow, because the industry is so fast-paced and fans are always looking for the next big thing. and western releases are never anything new or innovative, because they dont want to startle western audiences, or give them something too unfamiliar. that's why songs like one spark, dynamite, ice cream and numerous others just fall flat. they're basic, predictable, and just somewhat boring. they're trying way to hard to get radio play, and that means they never feel innovative, because they're just copying the western sound.
Saying dynamite fell flat is funny because the fandom doubled/tripled after that release, was a hit in western countries, a hit in SK, a hit in Japan. And for the former two it's still charting nearly 4 years later lol
@user-vv7hc7kb5o no i completely get you, bts are my ults. it charted insanely well but lowkey i think part of that was due to the pandemic: people literally had nothing to do so they were extremely dedicated to streaming. butter and ptd weren't deep in the pandemic but still a lot of ppl were at home. personally alll three of their english releases grew on me a lot and i loved butter from the start, but i know a lot of more casual armies and kpop stans didn't enjoy it that much and i kind of get why. they just don't feel very typically "bts" iykwim, although obviously bangtan delivered on the concept incredibly well
@@soobinsdolphin butter and dynamite still charting in Korea and Japan for example isn't due to the fandom I'll tell you that much lol those songs are gp favorites and now nearly 3-4 years later they're carried by the gp. the fandom has other newer songs/albums to stream. and yes that's the whole point as you said BTS delivered those concepts very well because that's what they do. they make every song, every sound/genre/concept etc. their own and deliver it with their charm. all tracks they've done in their career is a bts type of track because it's these 7 specific members singing, rapping and or dancing to it
this is such an interesting commentary concept! I think that, unlike japanese releases, westernization of even one album in a group's discography will always be a huge erisk at the very least. I look forward to seeing the longevity of these groups' identities changes
The westernization of Kpop is so interesting to me. It’s interesting to watch how a culture consuming other cultures connect can change that content. I curious how much of the westernization of twice has to do the group members getting older. I know Jihyo has mentioned not wanting to sing songs like Cheer Up now that they’re in their late/mid twenties. Regardless, I do think Kpop companies sometimes don’t understand that a big reason why western fans like the Kpop is because it’s different than what we normally listen to. Ironically I think twice having a cute image has kind of helped them grow in the west. They were able to fill a void that pretty much no one was. Great video as always!
It also has to do with what type of music the members consume, which is mostly western music I believe. Apink and Oh My Girl continue to do their cute concept just fine despite growing up. It feels like some of the TWICE girls are ashamed of their past bubbly and cutesy title tracks, and it's reflected on the setlist of their concert where most of these tracks are condensed into a medley of just 8 minutes. They even prioritize making covers of western artists rather than singing fully these olders songs that shaped their core image. The westernization makes both the group and the members feel lost in their identities. I think that the new mini of album of Nayeon will also continue this shift
@solennev3073 I think you were very spot on here! I totally respect their decision as artists but also I couldn't help but be a little disappointed going to their concert and watching them perform songs of artists I mostly don't even care about, I much rather have seen them performing in units and getting to hear other songs in their discography that I never got to see live etc..but anyways it is what it is
yesss, i don't want half-assed english versions of kpop songs (unless they are done well like Cupid) as for me, the apeal of most kpop songs is that i can focus solely on the music, the tone, the danceability, etc. i sometimes want songs that make my head empty, make me forget/ zone out from my real life. not every band/ group needs to have lyrics that need to be deciphered by English professors lol
i agree with most things you said in this video!! however, i do respectfully disagree with the notion that groups drop their identity to promote in japan. this is probably due to the similarities of the two countries in terms of culture but i would argue that groups like twice, snsd & ive didn’t really shift their concept much to promote in japan.
As from the thumbnail,i want to tell you something I enjoy twice's new music more than theur previous releases, It's more my type,But I'll vibe with whatever they release! And i don't think westernization has ruined twice's artistry in any way!!
i never really thought about the westernization aspect of set me free and one spark, but it does make sense. i guess that explains why my expectations are much higher for the upcoming japanese album; it’s unlikely we would have any songs like those two and they would most likely still stick to the concepts and sounds that have made and kept them popular in the japanese market, which isn’t a guarantee anymore with korean releases. i’m hoping jype realizes soon how much twice is struggling from losing the quirkiness and uniqueness of their feminine and pop-y sound in exchange for music that emulates trends in the west.
yes but it hasn't always been catering to the american music market, which has different tastes than the kpop music market. also pop has been a global genre for decades, it's a little tired to keep claiming "the west" (whatever that means) owns it
Nope. Just liste to kpop songs from the 2010s. Theyre so unique. Women wetre so feminie and men were masculine. No we have some degenerate gay looking dudes and women who act like men.
very interesting. translating korean in to english will always make the songs so... flat? lacking deeper and prettier meanings... though i believe twice's change up in image, appearance, and marketing is what helped them continue on for so long now but the lack of a progressive narrative is something im gonna be thinking about. i see what you mean. much to think about much to think abt
Can I just say I love how balanced and reasonable your videos are. kpop fandoms are so polarised nowadays, and its refreshing to hear such reason and nuance
I don't think the lyrics of set me free did anything. I think that's a hot take. There was definitely a change in the sound and the aesthetics with Ready to Be. And I think people recognized that first before deep diving the lyrics. At the end of the day, it was a departure away from the sound that made them popular, from the sound that they curated their fanbase toward for the previous 7 years; it was always going to be a risk but it was a risk that they accepted. I think this song and album, regardless of lyrics, was always going to be risky.
On a side note. I think Alcohol Free suffers from the same message ambiguity that Set Me Free suffers from. I think TWICE was still being marketed to the same demographic that they were when they debuted, which is a much more innocent demographic and singing Alcohol Free and featuring the words Alcohol Free on their posters, etc was a way to keep TWICE's image pure and innocent for that demographic, which became especially important as they reached their mid-twenties. Lyrically they wrapped it in a love song to hide it's true intentions. Same as Set Me Free. I think Alcohol Free and Set Me Free are two sides of the same coin, they had just shifter their demographic in between the two songs.
remember that every opinion is different though. ‘set me free’ brought me into twice fandom and one spark was my first comeback as a once, so obviously these songs mean a lot to me and i definitely can’t call them ‘soul-less’ and ‘life-draining’. imo, twice’s sound and creative direction changed not because of westernisation, but rather because members and fandom have already matured
I think JYP also started to shift TWICE's music when they saw the decline on Korean listeners, as evident on TWICE's placement in Korean charts and music show wins. We know how fast-paced the K-Pop industry is. They saw how TWICE has gained steady recognition, listeners and sales in the west. So in a business perspective, it makes sence to shift their focus on the market that has more ROI. However, I think its also important to point out that TWICE is a 9-year-old group. Even before their contract renewal, they already cemented their legacy in Korea with numerous accolades, even hailed as the 3rd Gen Nation's Girl Group. 9 years into career, they are still gaining popularity, listeners, and sales especially in the west. They are still selling out arenas all over the world. They are simultaneously past and is STILL in their prime. They've been through so much, and have also achieved so much, I think they deserve to have the chance to explore other things, mainly their music and their sound because artists also have a need to grow. As much as I want to point everything at JYP for this "decline," let's remember that the girls also have a say on how they want to promote and proceed with their music. They are at that point of their careers where they can now call the shots. Not entirely but its obvious, especially after the contract renewal. Maybe its not the way we wanted as listeners but in some way, this is how TWICE wanted their sound to change. I think the only thing I'll disagree with you directly is how Set Me Free and One Spark doesn't add up to TWICE's ethos or story. It does. These songs represent how much they value their fans. JYP didn't expect for TWICE to become a global group, the same way the girls probably didn't expect for themselves to be one. But its through their fans that these things became possible. TWICE has always been affectionate with their fanbase, but since the renewal, it has become more evident that the only opinion and feedback they care about are from their fans. Set Me Free and One Spark is not vague if you put in it the context of how much they love their fans. Think of it as love letters to ONCEs. Set Me Free tells how the fans helped TWICE grow into the women they are now with all the support they gave them. 'Ready To be' is not just a statement of maturity or confidence but its also them asking for their fan's guidance as they mature. Because they are now "ready." One Spark talks about the girls' passion and trust on each other, traits which the fans have always loved about them. But it can also be interpreted as the the genuine friendship and connection they established with ONCEs, that after all these years, ONCEs are still the spark that gets them going. Its the same with the album 'With YOU-th' which basically means "with you since youth" and it can be dedicated for both their members AND their fans.
THIS. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I THOUGHT BUT I COULDN'T FIND THE WORDS. I love twice with all my heart, i've been a fan since i can't stop me and i love them sm, but idk, lately i've been having a strange feeling abt them, not that their songs are bad, but they seem to be empty, and that's something that is rlly strange for me because the last thing I'd feel with a twice song before that was emptiness... I love them but idk, it's not that one spark is bad, it isn't, but there's no flavour, differently from icsm, m&m, fancy, etc.
also important to remember Jihyo herself said the members didn’t want to do cute stuff forever as they aged.
Yea, I think this is what is missed from choujimi...
The more you age, the more unlikely you'll be unsuited to a concept (Crayon Pop apparently had a 30 y.o-ish member in their line, but they still somehow were able to pull off cute concept. Well, maybe it's because they mix cute with quirky so the concept suitability is expanded. But that's another story)
Twice did aegyeo in their beginnings, not only they're fitting themselves to the market audience, but also to the members' age. But now they're mature women, so a no aegyeo is pretty much what the girls need...
They change their aegyeo to woman empowerment, which apparently is appealing to western market. So yeah, they change their direction. Though, I clearly get what choujimi said here (like- their shifting is somehow too dry? Like- okay, they're favored by the western audience now, but their substance is pretty much in danger as a group)...
I think this is why JYP tends to make another groups rather than changing direction. He probably is aware that changing Twice's direction is quite risky, so he starts making groups like Itzy and VCHA (like what choujimi said in the end-ish of this video: the marketing intention of a group)...
But they started changing and made a transition that started gradually with fancy and feel special and could go on slowly but progressing on the mature side from that, without trying too hard to appeal to the western market. I think that the attempt to do both things is what went wrong... or, at least, not as good as it would go
@@deefraux4012he literally said that releases like talk that talk and basics are what twice should be doing mature but faithful to their sound or they should do something like alcohol free mature but not chasing trends instead using a western sound and creating a song that fits you that has your own flavor
@@deefraux4012 He literally talked abt the girls going for a more chic concept wth a song like talk that talk
isn't that what he was saying though? Go down the route with songs like basics? bring in more of an rnb vibe to their music to bring that maturity with out totally erasing their music
One thing I think these companies fail to understand is that most kpop stans were drawn to kpop due to it's uniqueness from other music industries. I personally liked kpop because it was very different from the culture I grew up with and found it interesting and fun. And due to them changing and taking away this uniqueness,many fans are leaving because what they entered the fandom for is slowly fading away. Kpop is just trying hard to be something it's not and can never be. They are losing the fans they already have in attempt to appeal and get validation from the west. Such a bad marketing strategy ngl
couldn't have said it better myself.
and also the language itself, we do appreciate hangul!!!
@@takecarebilly_yes!
I was a once during their younger years and as I grew older I began to see that most groups transition into a western style of music which seem bland for the western audience. I mean the reason why kpop was loved is because of its over the top aesthetic and ridiculous chorus/beat that you barely can't see anywhere.
I agree. I’ve been with KPop since 2013. Back then, it still had a very distinct KPop sound. And it wasn’t for everyone. Certain groups like Bigbang had songs “normies” could like, but generally was still a little different. I felt so at home there. Although I do like some songs that come out now, it’s not for the same reasons as I did back then
I need "talk that talk" and "alcohol free" formula back
Me too, I hope Twice can find their own sound and concepts without JYP pandering to one audience.
the new songs are amazing too thoo like with-youth is kind of about friendship
@@trxxa_yeah and i really enjoy it
@@trxxa_ngl I’m super shallow and while lyrics can easily elevate the song, I’m not going to want to listen to it if it’s not interesting. Alcohol-Free and Talk That Talk were sonically interesting. Set Me Free was… something zzz. I Got You and One Spark from With You-th are the weakest of the whole EP for me. They’re so generic. Bloom is THAT GIRL.
@@reggiebell7291 i honestly don’t fully agree with you about the with-YOUTH ALBUM
I think Jihyo's single suffered from this alone.
I think the rest of the album (minus Talk about it) is great- shows vulnerability, the musical direction, songwriting and composing aspect.
Killing me good didn't reach the Korean audience and while having some noticeable moments outside of Korea, it didn't manage to show longevity.
That's why Nayeon's Pop worked, cause it was unapologetically K-pop, from sound, lyrics, choreography point, colours mixed with nostalgic feelings towards early Twice.
Yes that was my problem with Jihyo’s solo and why pop did so much better
I completely agree. Pop is essentially kpop through and through. While Jihyo’s KMG feels like a song from the west that isn’t really noteworthy and it was a self fulfilling prophecy
I blame lindgren, everytime I see that they have produced a twice song a part of me dies
@@greeng6914Even Scientist wasn't that well received by fans. He and his wife are alright when they're producing once a while, not every single comeback.
@@greeng6914 well every song they’ve produced after scientist sounds like something you’d hear in a retail store, I don’t know what happened, I feel like I kind of understood why set me free and killin me good sounded like that but one spark was underwhelming. I don’t listen to txt so I wouldn’t know how they work with them.
The drastic switch between aespas kr release and eng singles are baffling
It’s always the strangest thing ever, the west would eat up the sci-fi hyper pop style asepa has
but they have to go with the basic bare bones pop song 😢
@@TuhinaSaysHi i’m sorry but.. no they wouldn’t 😭 a song like next level would never become a hit here. the genre isn’t the issue, the executive is, it doesn’t suit western tastes but also neither do their english releases.
Right esp when their jp release was pretty good
@@xrrgrIdk, I’m pretty sure the west would like a song like hold on tight, lingo, maybe illusion too. It doesn’t have to be apart of the main lore/storyline, maybe a sub plot so nobody complains lol
its not just their eng songs tbh... after lee soo man left SM aespa completely changed... they left Kwangya asap and are now in the real world and their aes are nowhere to be seen and dont even get me started on the bsides.. the bsides on the savage album were all so aespa like and the whole album was a cohesive body of work. after lee soo man left, their albums have no cohesion whatsoever anymore and they're now making basic pop songs like their new highlight medley sounds awful. Lee soo man was the creative mind behind Aespa and after he left all the groups originality left with him. Like one of their upcoming songs "bahamas" like really Aespa?? that song sounds like Sabrina Carpenter could've sung it and i dont mean that as a compliment like they were supposed to make music like björk and sophie and now they have a horrible pop punk song on their upcoming album (Live My Life) the downgrade is insane
One thing that's not mentioned is that once fans lose interest in a group, it takes extra effort to get them back. When a song doesn't chart as well, it's not necessarily because of that song, it might be because of the last song or few songs. Even if they were to return to form, doesn't mean it'll chart as well. For a portion of the fan base, the momentum is gone, the enthusiasm has dwindled, and they're moving on. They'll still like TWICE but they'll be more interested in their old work, rather than paying attention to their new work. When a legacy group has new releases, it can't be viewed in isolation, there is context.
Exactly
yes, the losing interest or fandom burn-out part is so important! as a moa, i've witnessed how TXT's Chasing that Feeling took all the damage from the Back for More and Do it like that eng singles.. we as a fandom worked so hard to promote and give numbers to both collabs (cause BigHit is pretty much useless) that we were left ABSOLUTELY burnt-out when the actual album came out. We now joke about how our numbers were "depressing" during the Freefall era... All these companies are so desperately money-hungry that they end up damaging the main thing that keeps them afloat, the fans
How do you explain their continued growth and how each album keeps outperforming the one before? I mean this legit, not in a snarky way. Like factually they are bigger today than ever before.
@@SquirtlePower809I respectfully disagree, Twice is an established group with a large fanbase so in terms of album sales and tours they are going to be fine, I think what this discussion is about is how their music has been stuck, except for talk that talk which for me is the most Twice song they have released in a long time. In my opinion JYP did not know how to transition the girls to a more mature concept and as I said before they stuck them both musically and in the essence of the group. I blame JYP since this also happens to the other groups under their label.
@@helenarcos4175 imo Twice don't suit for an empowering image, because they don't know how to deliver it themselves. The way they deliver some latest songs sounds the same as the way they did in a cute concept. You can hear Twice's rap lines execute their parts poorly in Set me Free. Jihyo is the one who could do her assignment well in every comeback. I just wish they could take some time to improve their singing or rapping to express their messages more convincingly.
Moreover, I hope Twice will not be the one who has to chase the music trend for their song choices, they should be given songs which are based from their own DNA.
I’ve been saying this for awhile, so I’ll narrow down my thoughts. Kpop companies can’t and shouldn’t change a groups concept of image to be more marketable in the west, like they do in The Jappanese market . People in the west reverted to Kpop has niche to fulfill spaces in-between other niches. Blackpink never had a concept change or that heavy of a sound change and that’s why they did and do so well in the west. Blackpink’s concept and performance style is also very suited to western audiences already. YG made them with all audiences in mind and you could see that with how they shoved Jennie and Lisa into the front of promotions and kept Rose and Jisoo in back, since Rose and Jisoo are suited to the Korean general public. Looking at what Lesserfim and Aespa at Coachella, they both didn’t have training in preforming with western audiences or stages and they got torn down. I think most people are leaving kpop because kpop companies are trying to hard to shove pandering to western audiences.
I mean, people really like Boy With Luv though in my experience, and it is a pretty big departure from BTS. Butter and Yet To Come seem to get more critique but Boy With Luv seems generally regarded as a really good pop song. BTS solos have also done really well despite not really being the same sound as classic BTS.
If Blackpink released more songs they'd also have to change sounds at some point or else eventually people will tire of too much of the same thing. I
And like, aespa and Le Sserafim are both still very popular?
@@bopete3204 yes but they got ripped to shreds with the Coachella performances because there companies didn’t know what to do
@@bopete3204 there’s more but I’m still typing
@@CatNagTaylorsVersion The topic of discussion is whether westernization is hurting groups though. Coachella is just an incident of Kpop drama that hits every popular group. It's not that different than the drama about Blackpink tour performances that people stir up.
Actual incidences of westernization hurting groups' career arcs doesn't really exist in my opinion. There have been plenty of awkward sound changes over the years of all types. And then there's a lot of people spinning their personal dislike for some comebacks into a broader narrative.
TWICE's recent comebacks have specific issues that are related to westernization but not inherent to it. Comebacks like I Can't Stop Me did very well internationally. There is no need to concern troll about Western-friendly songs killing Kpop.
i mean… the westerners in attendance didn’t really complain about their performances, non attenders did.
JYPe has always had this problem with integrating their artists with the western audiences, from fumbling wonder girls, hot and cold with Twice, completely losing the plot with Itzy and now shoot blindly with stray kids, for stray kids' sake i hope this single gives them what they want from it.
In Stray Kids situation, 3Racha luckily produces their music so it sounds more authentic. However, with the raise of 5 Gen, it’s up to them to figure how to transition the Stray Kids in this new age in Kpop.
@@s.s.c0110 In 3racha we trust🧎
And even NMIXX
They seemed to have trained to be a global gg seeing how many members can speak English & Spanish
But JYP is Messing them up more n more
Despite being the most talented group in 4th gen and one of the best vocalists in k-pop
They are still struggling to achieve the heights they need to achieve
Nd a huge part of this is because of JYPE
JYPE know How to create one of the most talented artists in the industry but sucks at managing them , they only did a good job with ITZY initially nd now even that is going down the drain
@@idkymhere JYPE sucks majorly at promotions, even their teasers suck, Nmixx have the best concepts of all their groups and this is probably thanks to the subcompany running them yet they're still not promoted appropriately. I love JYPE artists, they're so easy to like personally, I'll wait for them to get back to top.
@@s.s.c0110aunthencity doesnt mean its good.
I never realized the translation aspect of their songs and how that effects the effort put into the lyrics which is a shame
The correct music industry term is not "translated songs" but adaptations. It's a high art form to transfer deeper meaning across, say, French-English or Japanese-Korean divide, never mind the great distance of Korean - English divide. There are few songwriters who could it pull off, especially when the original songs have deeper, specific meanings. But it can be done, and as our video author concluded, should be done. Because groups like TWICE are worth the investment.
THANK YOU THAT'S WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING. Like there's no Issue in promoting in the West or having English of their versions of their songs or even making English music, that's fine and a good marketing tactic.
But my Issue personally is how much some Kpop groups try to emulate SO FIERCELY what's popular on the West Pop scene in the dryest way possible, to the point that it's giving nothing to really work with the music besides being Top 40 Pop radio music.
As a Queen would say: "Where is the flavor in this. I taste nothing"
Is that really what this essay is saying?
I Can't Stop Me is listed as a song that's similar to a popular Western song from a previous year and it's very well-regarded.
The essay is mostly about how TWICE's English versions or Korean title tracks are weakening them lyrically.
@@bopete3204 i think people forget at its core kpop has always been western inspired, i mean the first kpop group was legit made to be a backstreet boys copy… the issue is just low quality music.
@@xrrgr Precisely. It’s all just pop music. Pop music generally relies on trends. The name of the game has been how quickly they can hop on a trend, how much they can make out of it, and how to package all of it to appeal to as many people as possible. Naturally, that process will lead to plenty of watered-down content as the end product.
@@xrrgrI understand what people are saying but Kpop doesn't really have its own sound, it derives from the Western influence as you said. The difference I think is the language and culture
@@xrrgryes but it's always had Korean/Asian influence. Now they're just trying to copy everything from Ariana to Nicki to Cardi and Megan. If we wanted that we'd stay watching ppl like that
Did you just forget about the feels? The chokehold the feels had on the west should be studied. They were playing the feels in the CLUBS like twice needs to go back to doing more like the feels everyone was eating her uppppp
Because it had that signature twice sound
It was catchy, fun, and came out at the right time lol. The west LOVES to play a song OUT when they love it lol!
The Feels is still really popular these days. I hear it often in restaurants and shops.
The feels had that Cupid sensation, not as big but the song, the vibes, and people just love an easy song to listen to, like Cupid.
i likes the feels but i've never heard it played here tbh lol
i personally believe that western audiences dont even really WANT these groups to become to hyper-westernised. like part of the reason groups like TWICE and BTS got traction in western markets was because their sound wasn't like your Ariana Grandes and Taylor Swifts. They were them! And frankly, JYP should realise we fell in love with TWICE back when TWICE was not even trying to be a global girl group. Their identity is not incompatible with global audiences, it very much is IMHO.
TWICE releasing English-language singles and translations is inherently fine, but what JYP, TWICE's team, and TWICE themselves need to do is evaluate how much pf a role pandering plays in lyrical content. I think the best course of action is to either simply just write the Korean-language tracks to their full power, translatability be damned, and then continue writing good English singles, OR, balance it out.
Kpop groups should not sacrifice their identity to pander to the western hemisphere, especially since it's clear that western audiences enjoy these groups even if they have a very Korea-aimed strategy.
We don't
I feel like producers saw how bts has risen to the top in the US with their westernized songs and tried to do the same except now they are just losing kpop identity all together
I think you hit the nail on the head when you said they should write Korean songs to their full power & just have stand alone English tracks. If they really want to promote to the western hemisphere at the same time, that would make the most sense. Hopefully they won't lose their music identity in the process.
@@mmiek796 and when you get asked what "westernized sound" they have you're gonna answer (very predictably btw) their 3 english songs out of their 400+ track discography.........pls come up with something else it's getting boring, dragged out and tiringggg
So who came up with the conclusion that their sacrificing their identity? Shouldn't artists be allowed to try new concepts or do you expect them to be an certain era forever? I'm from the west, but I could care less if they're hyper-westernized or not. It actually makes good makes good mashups if you want me to be honest. But to say their sacrificing their identity.... not even sure how that conclusion is even made because it focuses on side vs. what the artists want. And what the fans want vs. want the artists are going to be 2 different things.
And to be honestly, during Twice's comeback (thought they lost to Les Serrafim) at M Countown, there were quite a lot of people supporting them. And I don't think that was a western audience, that seemed solely fans from Korea.
And also, their 8th anniversary fanmeet was actually held in Seoul, it wasn't held here in the states. Long story short, music is changing whether we like it or not. I mean, do you expect Twice stay in the What is love/Heartshaker/Cheer Up or the Yes or Yes era in 2024? They've grown out of it and it would be sort of strange since most of the members are almost 30. They're humans... they're going to mature....
I couldn't figure out why I wasn't enjoying Set Me Free or One Spark as much, and this makes a lot of sense.
Same I really liked talk that talk but the last 2 comebacks haven’t brought in anything new
Twice is going have a Japanese comeback and album at July I am sure it's going to be better than One Spark because the concept photos are so dreamy and mermaid core like
One Spark is pretty fitting when you imagine it's celebrating TWICE's longevity. It really gives me Feel Special vibes where the song feels like it's meant for them and how they express their love for one another. Definitely leagues above Set Me Free in terms of execution.
Nah I like one spark but set me free is a little mid.
I figured out immediately. It's sooooo western
One thing I would add is that I'm personally a little sick of pre release singles. I tend to like the songs themselves a lot, so that's not the problem. But I don't even usually associate the pre release with the album by the time it actually drops. If you want to make multiple MV's, I'm more than fine with that. But I think pre releases tend to highlight any lacking cohesion in the actual comeback and fuels comparison about what is actually "the best" and "deserving" of the majority's attention.
I think Welcome To My World and Allergy are good examples of pre-release actually being pre-releases that set up the theme of the main release.
Often pre-releases do end up as another title track though. I think it's a context dependent thing that people have gotten a bit too loose with.
@@bopete3204 I agree with those examples working actually. That's a good point.
@tm5brown520 I'm ngl. I don't really listen to NewJeans, so I can't say if I agree or not, but that's still fair :)
I think the issue with pre release singles in K-pop is that the album is so short it usually doesn’t justify it, unlike western artists who can drop 2 or 3 singles and still have ten new songs on release. That, combined with how some prerelease singles are entirely different concepts that are hardly explored. I’m all for more MVs but I feel like the way it’s done needs to be retooled
@@appleworldinc.8937 true
western audiences went to k-pop for the k-pop sound, not for more western songs.
Wdym? Kpop has always been westernised, it's literally American pop/hiphop/r&b songs sing in Korean. It doesn't distinctively sound like Korean, unlike Jpop who has a distinctive Japanese sound. That's also the reason Kpop is more popular worldwide than Jpop
@@万恶共匪毒害中华 That's absolutely not true. Or maybe it was in the beginning, only. Find me any successful Western-originated group making songs like What Is Love and Cheer Up; or ASAP and RUN2U (STAYC); or Rough (GFRIEND); or Up & Down (EXID).
@@万恶共匪毒害中华 and whats J-pops unique sound? We could claim anything from around the globe can be tied back to america and all of their music subcultures. K-pop has a larger amount of songs that have a more sugar-like sound. take Gee by Girls Generation, its light and sugary and really popular. Thats what I mean by a k-pop sound.
If you have taken a step outside of america or just become aware of your surroundings, you’d realize how much of an impact america and american pop culture has had on the world, good or bad, wether you like it or not. So of course they’d take inspiration from american sub-genres, cause thats what audiences have come to like, korean or american. But thats not to say they didn’t create something new out of those things, just like you said “american pop/hiphop/r&b”, they created a new sound combining sub-genres.
@@万恶共匪毒害中华You are missing the point. You would never hear songs like Red Flavor or Cheer Up in the west. Now groups release songs like Easy and Set Me Free to appeal to Americans. When people talk about k-pop westernization, they talk about how groups are actively trying to chart in the US. Almost no one was doing that before outside of a few times once or twice like Wonder Girls
@@万恶共匪毒害中华k-pop does have its own sound. gee by snsd or the chaser by infinite is something you can’t find in the west
For me I look at it as a tale of two methods: emulating western sounds after a group establishes themselves, and debuting with western soundscapes and promotional methods already in place. This is why to me, western promoted tracks from BTS and Twice sound so removed from their other songs. Blackpink and NewJeans debuted with the plan to both make music and promote with the west in mind. I think you could make the argument BTS debuted with a very western hip-hop sound but I would disagree, their production even for 2013-ish was quite dated, I still love No More Dream though.
I think this just traces back to the fundamental problem of how an artist can evolve over time while retaining existing fans (or gaining more new ones than they lose) rather than anything specific about Westernization though.
Blackpink and NewJeans just haven't released so many songs that they need to change to keep things fresh yet (and in Blackpink's case they might not ever)
Nahh some of y'all must not be alright because is hiphop/rap, rock, rnb, jazz, pop, neo soul etc etc not western 😭😭😭😭💀 WHERE DO Y'ALL THINK THOSE GENRES CAME FROMMM
BTS especially is just making and releasing the music they want to release dawg omg free the guys from these discussions 😭😭💀 like I'm so tired ITS BEEN NEARLY 4 YEARS MOVE ON IM BEGGING
@@g100-w6jwouldn’t those genres bc considered western since they were created by African Americans and America is considered a western country
@@g100-w6j THESE GENRES ARE BLUEPRINTED BY AFRICAN AMERICANS....AKA A WESTERN COUNTRY
@@Timothee-101 I said how are xyz genres not western..... we're saying the same thing friend 😭 and to expand on it - kpop is not a genre. It never has been, it's an industry. Kpop is an umbrella term because kpop can be any single song of any single genre under the sun lol
when you mention set me free i can’t help but think about how we need more songs like girls like us
OMG YES! finally someone who's talking about this gem
yess i adore girls like us
exactly
we need more charli xcx demos in kpop
i would love to hear a Korean version with the og lyrics Charli XCX made, Fifth Harmony's demo sounds so good but the lyrics are also great, Twice kinda censored the original lyrics.
I think that Twice’s signature sound really fits what is popular with both Korean and western markets right now. They should try to take advantage of that. Twice still has so much that they can achieve. They just need to select title tracks that are true to them as a group.
I think that Twice can make music that is both mature, fits the Korean and western markets, and still has their signature sound. A really great example of this is The Feels. The Feels stays true to their signature Twice sound, but is more mature than their past releases.
With You-th is such a strong album. All of the songs follow the same distinct sound in my opinion. One Spark is the only song that doesn’t really fit the rest of the album. In an interview the members said that One Spark was supposed to be a title track for a previous album, but they ended up not using it. I think JYPE needs to be making title tracks specifically for Twice instead of using rejected songs that were supposed to be on previous albums.
Now that the Twice members have more of a voice in the direction that their music is going in they definitely seem to want to lean more into a mature sound. I think they should continue making music that makes them happy and that they feel comfortable performing now that they are in this stage of their career.
One spark is definitely an odd one. A friend of mine pointed out that it sounds like it could be a Japanese single and it clicked!
I really hope Nayeon’s upcoming album doesn’t suffer from this and that they keep the Kpop aspect that they had in her first comeback
I don't know if you listened to the snippet of the TT by the time I'm replying, but it feels like it's going to be a good song!! It seems to be reminiscent of the old school kpop sounds emulating the R&B/ hip hop trends of the West but with its own singular flavour
@@kerosama7726 Yess I did and it sounds so good!! Nayeon is going to save the summer yet again ☀️
have you listened to it already? 😅
@@margarettesafiya6908 yes I did and it wasn’t what I expected but she definitely rocked the cooler concept of this comeback!! The fan chant also perfectly suits it. Let’s stream!! 😄
@@kerosama7726 it really just sounds like crazy in love by beyonce
Not choujimi feeding us very well these days, no complaints from me
Right? I'm so happy🥺
Me too
your video topics are always so interesting😭
and yours too 😭
I would say (g)-idle is another pretty good example of K-pop groups with a big international fan base but promote heavily in Korea and whose songs aren’t impacted by westernization (unless someone is a xenophobe then yes soyeons not perfect English will bother them and yes they’ll talk about it relentlessly on twitter)
The way that fate is a all Korean song (I think) and it did so well is proof that songs with more Korean CAN do well
people talking about soyeon’s butchering of aave is not xenophobic jesus christ…
@@dghsdjk44But targeting her specifically all the time and saying that her English is horrible for every comeback is xenophobic. It's not her first language ,but she is doing fine.
English is not my first language and I still cringe with some of her songs. And it's literally her job, she have to put some effort learning English if she wants write in English. Is not that hard@@rubyrubacus9787
@@dghsdjk44 soyeon is literally one of the only kpop rappers who doesn’t use aave
It’s just her grammar that’s a bit off
People love to make shit up
9:40 BTS „lost the plot“ in 2020 and 2021 BECAUSE it was NOT THE PLAN to be active as a group after MOTS 7 for a few years.
When you really look into it, it makes so much sense that MOTS 7 was supposed to be BTS‘ last album („goodbye album“) before their inevitable break during their military enlistment.
Every major year end award show performance of 2019 was a throwback to the beginnings of BTS‘ discography. They performed at MAMA 2019 N.O. and we‘re bulletproof pt. II and at MMA 2019 boy in luv (followed by boy with luv as the second half of the coin) and referenced almost every old title track during their performance (comeback trailer of school luv affair and O!RUL8,2?, no more dream, danger, I need u, fire, save me, fake love, N.O.).
MOTS 7 features 3 early comeback trailer in their songs (intro persona: school luv affair, interlude shadow: dark&wild, outro ego: debut trailer) and ON (N.O. reversed) should become the peak of BTS’ spectacular dance choreography performances.
MOTS 7 was made to be a full circle moment as the closure of the on going MOTS era and with the planned world tour the grand finale of the „first chapter“.
CLEARLY BTS DID NOT initially PLAN for another „plot concept“ afterwards/beyond that.
Then the pandemic happened and it was unclear when and if they could go on tour. So they waited.
But they were in this weird transition period not knowing when they can go on tour and Jin having to go to the military in December of 2020.
So on the one hand nobody at that time could predict how long Covid would prohibit in person concerts (weeks or months and the predictions frequently changed), but on the other hand the estimated time period as a full member group was limited till Jin‘s enlistment in December 2020. These few months didn’t allow to develop and establish a completely new concept for an album series like BTS prior work (usually created for a time frame of 2-3 years).
Of course, in retrospective you know they stayed together as a group for two more years, but at this time nobody would have thought.
And they couldn’t have stayed together for two more years if dynamite had not become this successful and the Korean government had not decided to pass the new law which allowed Jin to postpone his enlistment.
So they tried to make the best out of the situation and released this fun disco dance track they were sent entirely in English. And it exploded.
After that they made an introspective self produced album in Korean.
I think after the success of dynamite they thought „okay let‘s give it a try and see how far we can get“ with this new dimension of global success.
They had this unexpected time period where they couldn’t go on tour and suffered under the lack of in person interactions with their fans while performing.
Imo they didn‘t want to enlist like „this“ during the pandemic.
Then the Korean government passed the „BTS law“ and Jin didn’t have to enlist in 2020.
So they had to (and COULD) wait as OT7 until things got better and they could perform in person in front of Armys for a last time AS A GROUP before leaving to the military individually.
Therefore IT MAKES PERFECTLY SENSE for them at the time to release one or two single tracks (they want to do right now or maybe think will do well with its simple but catchy and happy pop/dance vibe in a depressing pandemic) and collaborate with other artists they like for individual songs instead of setting up a long term album series project with well thought out concepts needed to be build up over time like BTS usually did/does.
Because they could not plan that far ahead and wanted/had to be able to adopt quickly to changing circumstances (like maybe be able to go on tour after all which sadly didn’t happen though).
And they closed the „first chapter“ with a spectacular grammy performance, in person concerts and an anthology album and the Busan YTC „festival“ in 2022.
And in the current „second chapter“ all members are making music they personally love and want to do.
And imo BTS DIDN‘T LOOSE their essence or CORE IDENTITY. BTS didn’t have a singular signature style to begin with.
They were ALWAYS evolving and trying new styles and just are a very VERSATILE GROUP. But I think you can always feel the „BTS essence“ in all of it.
But there are always certain fans who became army in a specific era or favor a specific side, style or sound of BTS. And these fans always want more of there preferred version of BTS and maybe get scared (?) that they won‘t get that anymore in the future.
These are the ones who say „Oh BTS have changed and I like the old BTS, I want the old BTS back“.
But what „the old BTS“ is varies: some mean the old school hip hop „no more dream“ like BTS, and others mean the „dope and fire“ BTS or HYYH BTS, wings BS&T BTS, spring day/ you never walk alone BTS, love yourself BTS or MOTS BTS etc.
BTS can appeal to so many different audiences with different preferences, but not everybody will like everything.
You can like the rap and hip hop style, the emotional ballads, the pop songs, the edm tracks, the more „happy“ „party“ vibe, the darker vibe, the nostalgic vibe, the large scale dance choreographies with 50 backup dancers, the detailed choreos, the fun choreos or the vocal performances.
Other groups (like for example Blackpink and Twice who are mentioned in the video) have a more „narrow“ signature concept and style of music. They also have of course variations and different types of songs, but all of it should fit to the general vibe and concept. So the fans you attract are more likely to like all of their music (and not say they don’t like the music anymore because the style stays the same). This means the fans might also disapprove with a „drastic“ style change they‘re not used to (which is what is happening with twice at the moment imo)
But I don‘t think BTS has become „too westernized“. They are allowed to try different styles. That doesn’t means they will follow this path forever. And I think it shows. BTS did not only release disco pop tracks in English since dynamite. They released a self produced album in Korean called BE, a classic Japanese style ballad named film out, a Korean ballad with my youth, a R&B ballad with yet to come (resembling 2013/14 BTS) and with run bts a perfect (indescribable) unique BTS-esque song (in Korean).
From the solo projects we got a wonderful range of different styles and songs suiting to each member.
We got Jungkook with an English album targeting the western market that worked for the domestic and global market as well, Jimin with an (in house self produced) album, semi marketed to a western as well as a domestic audience which succeeded the expected outcome in the US, Jin with an English ballad written by Chris Martin that suits Jin’s style perfectly, as well as Hobi (primarily self produced) and Tae with albums directed at specific music genre fans and not primarily created to appeal to the general public (with no collabs), Yoongi with an (primarily self produced) Korean rap album and a title track featuring traditional Korean instruments and RM who featured an internationally unknown but domestic well acclaimed Korean rock singer on his title track (album primarily self produced as well).
All of their musically choices suit the individual members perfectly and are the result of them experimenting with new sounds and styles as well as pursuing the music they want to do, imo.
Disclaimer: I know the video is NOT about BTS and armys always spam at every opportunity with their opinions about BTS but if you mention BTS, I can voice my opinion and argue with the statement(s) made in the video.
I originally clicked on the video because of Twice (I really like them as a group and their music) and I would mostly agree with the analysis.
But as an army I have more of an „expertise“ on BTS than Twice (therefore I clicked on the video to learn more about Twice) and imo the case for BTS is a little different than for other groups like the ones mentioned in the video.
Imo (not really an expert so not a qualified opinion here) Twice‘s current strategy is not bad. I like some songs and maybe they will release songs with a more „classic“ iconic Twice sound again in the future as well. Not everyone has to like every song all the time. Trying different sounds and styles is nothing bad and it doesn’t mean that they lost their core identity (just yet). They can go back to it. Maybe after a few comebacks you could say they lost their initial core identity. As of now it could be a phase of trying new styles and grow as a group and artists. Twice gets older, too. Maybe they want to look for a more mature concept or something like that (or follow current trends to not become „outdated“). And there is nothing wrong about that. They will get new fans who like the new concept and „older fans“ still have the past discography. Nobody is taking it away. But „the older fans“ are also allowed to voice their opinion and wish for their favored version of Twice.
Imo you can make good music (as a K-pop artist) in English and Korean, you just have to make the effort and have the vision to create something good. Maybe the problem is like pointed out in the video, that the recent Korean tracks are written and produced with less effort than the English tracks. If this is the case, I would agree that this can create a serious problem for their balance as a group. Maybe the solution is like pointed out in the video to produce songs that are in itself complete and good and not try to make it work in both languages.
Thanks for the video!
eat eat eat! BARSSS
SO TRUEE SPEAK ON IT
atee
i never thought of mots:7 in that way before reading this! and the way you mention BTS's versatility is very well-put as i struggle myself to put it into words.
anyways, thank you for this insightful comment
Girl this essay
They don't realize westerners like being in niches. Not a lot of people want it mainstream. I like the music in korean. None of the western kpop fans i know ever are extra excited over an english release
The feels is they major sucess in this decade
I hope that twice ends up going for music for title tracks that is more like their b-sides. I love their b sides and i genuinely believe if they stop looking for specific viral sounding songs fit for specific audiences and go for their favorite songs in general in the albums not just to perform but the best sounding
By the way, lyrically I’ve always thought One Spark was about youth and wanting to keep that feeling of youthfulness forever. Don’t let the “spark” die. Which makes sense with the name of the album. I don’t think it’s as vague as you say.
Right. I think there are clear intentions in the song and anything vague is actually a sign of maturity in their songwriting. I also interpret One Spark to be song about maintaining not only their youth, but their legacy by keeping their initial passion burning.
I immediately got the message first listen…I don’t understand how he is seeing it as ambiguous as he is
LITERALLY
I feel like he was talking concept-wise because I also felt like One Spark was underwhelming even if I knew the message behind it. Unlike Special, it seems to me that it lacked in music, concept and MV alike (as you could previously grasp the Twice essence with their former releases). The budget and the storytelling of the MV didn't feel as complete as their previous ones but personally, I think it was mostly musically-wise that Twice lost most of their charms...even if I enjoyed some of its parts, it sounded like a basic sound?
It's kind of sad, since most kpop fans fell in love with kpop because of it's unique sound that was unlike the western pop music at the time. :/
I do want to add that weirdly what they've done has worked. I've heard Set Me Free and Moonlight Sunrise in Target, the mall, and in restaurants. While I agree that Twice isn't doing their concept change great and honestly it feels like a lot of kpop companies don't seem to understand what actually works in a Western market, it's interesting to note that Twice did pretty successfully branch into the Western market
Cool was it la or New York or somewhere less touristy?
It must've been la I've not heard them
@@dotcom3015Targets all over have Twice, Bts and such playing constantly
THANK YOU FOR THIS VIDEO AND YOUR OPINION!!!!
as a huge and obsessed once, i was trying to understand what was causing this downfall or at least the decline in popularity. it was kind of my goal in life almost xD
what you shared really makes sense, thank you for this! some people in jype need to hear this
you put exactly into words what is my problem with what i like to call musical "degeneration" from twice and other groups. to me, all of their releases after 'more & more' seemed like unispired versions of their overall identity and it only got more apparent with time.
the difference between japanese releases vs western releases to me it's that when a group drops a japanese single it's made clear prior to the release date this is part of a different universe within the group's sonical landscape, while with western releases, more often than not, the shift is portraited like something natural to their musical identity when it's clearly the opposite in most cases.
i'm still pissed off at sm til this day for trying to convince everybody that 'life's too short' was a natural turn of events on aespa's catalog, as if it's something that the fans that liked the aespacore concept and metallic sounds where looking for, rather than a lame attempt at reaching a broader western audience.
i definitely felt this way as a moa who got into txt because of temptation, only to have that album followed up with Do it like that and then chasing that feeling. Freefall has some really good b-sides besides dilt but it got completely eclipsed by how generic ctf was as a song and mv. I’m glad that tomorrow was a more korean focused cb
As a moa, I had the exact same problem. Temptation was an amazing album, which did well both in Korea and internationally. It baffles me how, after seeing the success of Sugar Rush Ride (a primarly korean song), BH's decision for TXT was to release Dilt and CTF....these 2 songs stray away from TXT's unique sound and were such forced attempts to cater to the west.
CTF GENERIC WHAT?
The problem isn't with westernization or english songs. The problem comes from fans that can't handle the fact that these artists need to be artists and want to try new sounds, new genres, and new themes. It's natural for many musicians to want to step out of their comfort zone and do something different. To many fans, if they don't like the song or theme or sound....they will completely give up or tear down the group instead of thinking "I don't vibe with this...maybe I will for the next one". They also don't buy the albums and listen to all the songs to hear how they have experimented and how they still stayed the same. Fans also want to keep idols and groups in their debut mindset and forget that these idols and artists are growing up around different sounds and just growing up period. Groups are supposed to stay in their little boxes that fans have kept them in and not let them out. That is the main problem.
This is it, wanting everything to stay the same becomes boring, you can't expect artists to be ok with always doing the same thing
This makes sense
Real
Literally
Totally what I have been saying right along...WELL stated, because the narrow minded fandom's think.which is Not Their Call
"Do not want their group to step out off their Box" because if they do They Feel they are losing control .
There is not an artist around that is going make it , if they do not change things up from time to Time ..... Got to stop the
"Cookie Cutter Concept .....
I became a Twice fan over the last couple years and have been enjoying their older stuff and their newer stuff. With You-th is an album I've been playing on repeat.
For me bts never changed cuz they never stuck to a sound. You can see that from the beginning of their career, they did a hip hop trilogy, then they changed to a more youthful sound with hyyh trilogy, then R&B in the love Yourself trilogy, and then map of the soul: 7, persona, they were trying for something darker, and then they did a more pop sound in dynamite and BE, which so many people forget it was in the middle of two English singles butter and dynamite and then came ptd. They never changed cuz they never stuck to one sound, they were experiencing with their music the whole time. Bts themselves said that they weren't going to release the three English singles and BE. Map of the soul:7 was supposed to be the last album before enlisting in the army but then covid came, that's when they got dynamite and released it. But even after the success of those three songs, i think they themselves felt lost and began to question their music group identity(we can see that too in map of the soul: 7 , in black swan) as they didn't expect this success. And i think the company played a big role in this, like after they saw the success of dynamite they pushed them to release more( not sure if this true, but come on, it's hype that were talking about). And after that they released proof which had only 3 new songs, but those songs were like" what old bts felt like" according to kpop fans.
And for black pink, i don't think that they have enough songs to change their sounds even after 7 years in their career( even tho i see some people wanting something new from them cuz their getting bored of the same concept) maybe if they release more songs. And for new jeans, they are like new, they are like 2 years old group i think, but at some point i think you wil see them changing their concept.
they weren't pushed to release anything that's the only thing I would say you're incorrect about but everything else is a slay friend !
Oh and Proof is an anthology album that's why it only has 3 new tracks and the third disc is all demos for already released songs with a few unreleased songs (quotation mark and young love).
the third disc is only officially available in the physical copy, they're not on streaming platforms but all the tracks from the 3rd disc can be found on yt and other places so yeah. like Hobi's demo for DNA is such a banger also jump demo, boy in luv demo while boyz with fun demo is so silly and hilarious 😭😭 the guys rly were doing anything in that studio lmaoo
@@g100-w6j i said i wasn't sure cuz i don't know too, i assumed it cuz look at fucking hype and also ( not sure but suga said a thing about that they had to release butter, not sure tho) you slay too ( don't know what does slay mean even after i searched it )
I disagree lot people are not get boring music with Blackpink if they did we be talking about right and won't be most girls group on Spotify and UA-cam without a comeback in two year Yeah that is optional but they lot people to Ironic songs from 80s still like we are the champions and will rock from you said they boring song every hell people still listen to Elvis but what you saying his song play to make you to remember if a iconic songs and Blackpink you can said all song iconic how they did them in a way you going to remember them how they sing because they are Legends and Global icons and they song Legends in way trouch people in way Like D4,Kill this love Lovesickgirl Stay and More they song did people remember those in 20 years I going all say but this but you have your option is not true or facts but I tell my opinion on this remember everything you need is on the ground
THIS THIS THIS!!!
funnily enough, in reference to your video on le sserafim's live performances, i feel like westernization is one of the main reasons why their performance at coachella failed. the musical trends that le sserafim draw from, particularly their most recent music, are not ones that easily translate to a kpop performance style without modification.
plenty of kpop idols are mid or even below average singers, but when balanced with the maximalized production of the instrumental and complex choreography, it makes up for where vocals may lack. a lot of the songs that are considered quintessential kpop have this quality of spectacle about them that's almost theatrical. im pretty sure giselle of aespa once said something along the lines of "the reason music videos and performances are so important is that you're really only getting half the story from only streaming the song." it's really similar to how pop songs often can't function as musical theatre numbers without modifying the arrangement, because musical theatre numbers are intended to tell part of a story, so they heavily emphasize the lyrics and the instrumental being reflective of the emotion the character is feeling. it's why people have panned Disney's Wish so hard. the songs just feel like regular pop songs without any effort put into having the music tell a story.
le sserafim's discography, by contrast to typical kpop, is very minimalistic in order to reflect current music trends in r&b/pop. the issue with that is when you combine kpop-trained vocalists with a style of music (r&b) that has a minimalistic instrumental on PURPOSE in order to emphasize the vocals, you end up with le sserafim's vocals sticking out like a sore thumb. going back to the musical theatre comparison, it's like hearing a broadway vocalist like Idina Menzel sing a pop song, the inflection and overacted emotion she puts into it feels so corny and out of place in your typical pop song because it's not intended to tell a story on a live stage the way theatre is.
if we're going further and further into the comparisons of kpop to musical theatre, i feel like blackpink works for the same reasons that a modern musical like hamilton works, because while both play on western pop/rap soundscapes, they're still playing on the conventions of their mother medium, ie blackpink utilizing typical kpop structure in both the instrumental and the general song structure itself and hamilton still using theatre storytelling.
i don't think it's a coincidence that eve psyche and the bluebeard's wife is one of le sserafim's breakway hits, because it's probably their most kpop-y sounding song to date. while i know people tried to make aespa comparisons with that song i honestly think le sserafim would be better off with that type of music, because it's not that their vocals as a whole group are remarkably bad by kpop standards, they're just bad for the type of music HYBE keeps making them do.
this is such a well explored and thoughtful perspective, wow. you have to be one of the few people i have seen through this spark of westernization discourse to not only present something new that is relevant to the conversation, but is thought-provoking and takes into consideration room for nuance! i have nothing to add i just had to compliment how good this was lol
@arimes31 thank you lolol honestly I've been a kpop fan for years and years and the recent trends in kpop have had me scratching my head as to WHY kpop feels different nowadays and after going on a musical theatre kick while my faves weren't making music it clicked
Really like your insight.
Their new groups are even worse. I watched a couple of ILLIT encores and look...I don't wanna beat a dead horse but they are one stage above Le Sserafim - the non-existent vocals don't even matter anymore bc there's nothing to sing. The whole EP is under 9 minutes I think to begin with, and they're stuck with a repetetive 2 minute song that has like 5 lines of actual lyrics and is meant for Tiktok (the whole album was released as a spedup version like a week later plus the obligatory remixes so that should tell you everything). Tbf they have one ok singer I wanna say that and Youngseo might've been good but this is literally a Le Sserafim situation where they thought 3 ok singers is enough but then oops one got kicked out and the other two are getting worse bc Hybe apparently dgaf about vocals AT ALL. And yes Chaewon did ok but 1/5 is not enough and who knows how her vocals will develop under Hybe. Just look at Yunjin.
Without getting too much into the current Hybe drama - I'm not up to speed and really dislike MHJ - the CEO was definitely trying to create NJ 2.0 but on steroids. And from what I've heard at least NJ can sing a little but does it matter? Both of the 3 gg produce music that is either soulless, made for Tiktok fame, heavily autotuned or all of the above. I blame Fifty Fifty (or their CEO) for this mess by going viral but the sweet irony of the 3 kicked out members being great singers and singing their debut stage without backtrack is not lost on me. Sometimes the universe has a mean sense of humor.
@@moongirl8807 yeah i feel like illit is the other half of the equation here. they have the issue of playing on the like, lo-fi/bedroom pop sound which is fine for easy listening or putting in the background of a video but its the opposite of what a kpop performance needs to be. granted i think there are artists who play into the more lo-fi style that can work in kpop but that would require HYBE producers to tweak the songs to make them more gradiose, more layering, etc. which they don't seem to care to do. it's sad because illit are clearly young girls who have dreams of being idols but they're not being trained properly and taking the fall for something that isn't their fault.
screenshotted this comment cause it’s just that good
I think it is crazy to have an English pre-release and Korean title track but then make an English version of the Korean title track... Like the effort is lost on me especially when neither of the English songs were able to chart or do numbers streaming-wise. If you're gonna sacrifice quality, concept, and art for numbers & popularity you should go all out for promotions. Instead, they let both versions fizzle out only promoting the vague Korean title track on music shows which also did not do numbers. Something needs to change marketing-wise because the potential "Set me free" and "I Got You" had so much potential.
I don't think BTS lost their plot because they never had any kind of concept. The only thing I can think of is that people liked their darker depressing meaning songs and did not like their positive upbeat meaning songs which is just in the eye of the holder. Their English singles still possessed meaning plus they changed their concept, look, and sound each comeback. Some people can never be satisfied in every era people said they preferred the previous BTS.
In my opinion, 3 English singles cannot rupture a long discography of Korean singles especially when the fruit of the albums remains high quality and cohesive. In Twice's case, their main problem is promotion and connecting with their audience so many people did not even know Twice had a comeback. They only know that twice has been on tour for a long time.
Also all of BTS' English songs were heavily promoted in South Korea and Japan as well as the US, they charted insanely well & hold records their Korean songs don't. It is just a matter of people hating on BTS with their 3 English singles they did not really sacrifice anything and remained unaffected in their career. The English singles even gave them a huge boost of popularity and recognition that extended to their Korean songs.
@kf5338 3 english singles cannot define a 10 year career. I doubt when they come back they will be making music like dynamite.
Thank youuuu for saying that about BTS omfg I could give a juicy big ol kiss on the mouth for your comment
@kf5338 the whole BE album, Proof and other songs released during that time by the members say hi! lol 😂 you're missing out that's for sure
Well, That seems like a you problem because majority of Onces loved their newest album,And it is quality music,Get your ears checked!
@kf5338BTS was never a group to stay the same lol. Each and every era of bts was something different and experimental. Their shift to lighter music came at the right time I believe, Dynamite, PTD, and butter definitely were songs of the summer for me and a lot of people.
I'm glad people are actually talking about this topic. Fans (specially new fans) go crazy when you talk about westernization. Then they say "it's just pop in Korean" nah babe, you know damn well what we're talking about.
No, but it's still pop whether it's K-pop or J-Pop. Why is the JYP training rooms named Micahel Jackson and Madonna? Those are western artists.
Did you know Red Velvets 'Dumb Dumb sounds a lot like Jessie J's Bang Bang? Also Girls Generation 'Party', sounds like Katy Perry's California Gurls as it's using the same chord progression ? Both were released in 2015, Bang Bang was also realesed in 2015 but California Gurls was released in 2009.
But yeah, I guess you're right, people don't know what they're talking about.
@@imtherealone.6268 using samples and admiring superstars are a part of music industry. The problem isn’t in making “pop like music”. The video creator talked about the main problem. By westernization fans mean that when a company tries to break into the western market but in that process they lose or mess up the group’s original identity.
@@blossomspringbloom Do you know "when a companies tries to break into the western markets" are called? It's a business move as these labels are also businesses. And to be frank, an artists image change all the time, it has nothing to do with the West. Lol. It's actually called 'times change'. Even if companies didn't break into the Western market, their image would change regardless because as an artist, I'd imagine they want to try new concepts.
Do you expect an artist to stay in a certain era for the rest of their career? I'd imagine they'd get tired of it and want to try something new. I don't see what that has to do with western fans. The two don't go together. Seems like western fans are being used a scapegoat if you want me to be honest. Gotta blame someone, right? Let's blame everyone BUT the artist.....
As a Blackpink fan I don't find Twice's westernization as an exactly bad thing. Yeh, it's a bit selfish, but from my point of view it's sort of salvation. Biggest problem of BP is lack of content. 28+- songs in 7 years and almost zero of other group activities is laughable. Yes it's part of strategy, but its not enaught to ... stay conected. There are other groups which try to lure us away with similar concept, but mostly they are newbies, so I don't find them as interesting as older idols.
So when I look at Twice 5th world tour concert (Furuoka day one for example) I get everithing what I'm looking for. Amazing show, talented and gorgeous idols with with a tangible background in their prime and catchy songs.
i just hope that the kpop companies realises that the global audience listens to kpop because it’s kpop, it’s unique and different from the western music, the reason why kpop wasn’t that big before is bcs people did not know abt it, as it gained more attention, it gained more fans, like i’m sure that there’s not a single kpop fan that doesn’t like songs like fantastic baby, tell me, ring ding dong etc. i am an indian and for me, hindi music, english music and korean music are all different, and i would like if it stays that way
i think another important point is styling, both set me free and one spark seem to just follow current trends and don't really have a specific direction (one spark specially, it feels like the only outfits that really suit the mv concept are the red and black outfits and the sparkly silver and black outfits that weren't used during promotions). this was a problem for twice before they became global (with eras like yes or yes and likey), but when you have most groups following western fashion trends and your concept isn't strong enough to innovate on them, you end up with outfits with expensive flashy pieces that don't really fit with the rest of the collections so it just looks messy and eventually will be very forgettable. i love both set me free and one spark and their albums respectively, but as eras i think they will be always outshined by their english singles.
see, while i understand that the "concept change" works from the korean to japanese market - that's because most kpop groups have little to no overlap between their korean and japanese projects (bar any japanese versions but even then those are usually released after the popularity of the korean version is already established). twice's japanese discography is drastically different from their korean, mainly in part to the fact jyp has essentially watered down their korean discography and pivoted to, for lack of a better term, "musical mush" to appeal to everybody and nobody simultaneously, while their japanese discography is still unique and fresh because warner music is well aware of who their target demographic is... japanese consumers. i think if jyp wants twice to really break into the western world, have them take the same route they did for their japanese releases. sign to a western label, release "english albums" rather than randomly placing pre-release singles and english versions in their korean projects. keep their western ventures seperate from their korean and japanese ones.
I'm so glad this video exists. I thought I was just growing out of kpop but nah my fave groups sound really did change.
After Strategy the only video I can think is this one...
I don't agree with the idea that translation is a problematic aspect of westernization. Companies could if they want shift the meaning of the lyrics during the translation process or they can actually try to communicate something deeper with the help of professional translators. Great works of literature have been translated to and from different languages so I dont see how this can't happen with a kpop song with a more specific message.
I think the sound is the main problem. The western music market has preferences that do not align with those of the korean kpop music market. This means that some kpop acts will change their sound too drastically to appeal to the west. Other kpop groups like new jeans and blackpink to a certain degree debut with just the right sound and can so more easily appeal to the west and other parts of the world.
Wait. How does BTS “suffer” from “Westernization”?
Note that I don’t consider their English trilogy as “westernization” but as their gap year project. Since their cancelled Map Of The Soul (MOTS) world tour 2020, and their album Map Of The Soul: Seven was supposed to be their last album, and their last activities, before leaving for the military.
A lot of kpop groups may serve as DOORS INTO KPOP for THE GENERAL PUBLIC.
But BTS, specifically through their English Trilogy, was a door INTO THE MAINSTREAM for KPOP.
"Westernisation"? You and many others are asking the wrong question.
Although they made it big in the US BEFORE Dynamite, BTS blew up in the mainstream consciousness AFTER their English trilogy. So. This is the point in time some kpop fans considered to be the start of their “westernization”.
A starting point many kpop fans can’t seem to agree on, as they confused misalignment of personal tastes to real world degradations of integrity or quality.
I, as a mainstream music consumer, see no characteristically different qualities in BTS overall discography from 2013 - 2022, that is significant enough to be called a complete turn around.
Especially when compared to most Kpop groups.
While at the same time, BTS produced a significantly unique musical product compared to the rest of Kpop. Which is always what people seem to pick on whenever they see fit.
But they been the way they have been, musically, since 2013?
Again, as someone new to Kpop, I am perplexed at what I see as an overstatement of their “suffering from westernization”, and all the conversations around it, because I simply don’t see any “suffering”.
BTS have not suffered in terms of their musical growth, if judging from their most recent solo projects.
BTS have not suffered in terms of the growth of their fandom. The fandom have grown both in numbers, and in terms of fans from a wide variety of musical genres.
Which makes me think that this conversation touches on something more sensitive, and it has nothing to do with music: IDENTITY.
And NOT that of the artists, but of the CONSUMERS.
What do you think?
I feel the same. BTS are always ready to try as more concept as they find. And that makes them unique not western.
I agree, wow this comment is very thought provoking. Being that as you said, if I'm a fan of a group and that group drops a English song, which I consider 'boring, horrible and western.' Does that make my identity as die-hard fan, invalid?
Of course there's nothing wrong with having a taste for certain K-pop sounds but there are mostly western genres mixed in with K-pop, so I'm just trying to grasp?
As being a fan of that group is now a huge part of my identity. Is that what you're saying? I'm genuinely interested and intrigued with your comment!
@@nedoorbut when twice does it, It's westernization,Right!
The double standards!
i mean if you’re considering their english releases as a “gap year” it just sounds like you don’t wanna admit that they did suffer from westernization. If you don’t wanna add those songs in their discography but throw them to the side as a gap project then it sounds like you just don’t wanna admit it
well let me be honest with you their western songs just sound extremely awful and they lack soul if you would tell an ai to make you basic pop music this it what they would sound like theres no creativity or passion or originality
Twice are powerhouses in the industry even tho their new music isn’t popular anymore. That’s what they have it’s a loyal fan base. I don’t think twice are really aiming to do something new like they did 2018-2020, it’s exactly the same for bts
what do you mean you "don't think twice (and same for bts) are really aiming for something new like they did in 2018-2020"?
although i agree with what you said, there’s a lot of issues black pink have. almost all of their title tracks are the same concepts and the lyrics are so incredibly similar to their previous songs- it’s almost as if they’re scared to branch out. though i know bp fans love their bad-girl concept, i think it’s stumped their growth as artists. when they do come together as a group, which is rarity these days but isn’t necessarily their fault, we can expect the same music and the same concept. nothing new nothing fresh.
i love twice. i liked them in their aegyo-core era cuz the bubblegum pop was just infectious, but i fell in love with their transition to fancy up until talk and talk. this era was also the time when i started listening to their albums as a whole along with the title track. for some reason the latest two releases mentioned in the video just hasn’t connected with me at all, and it’s sad cuz i love the group but i’m not enjoying the music as much. i haven’t been able to fully listen to the albums as well since the title track just doesn’t entice me to dive deeper. hopefully jyp gets a grip cuz why waste their renewal with just okay releases.
This is such a cool analysis as a ONCE. The idea that the return to form with Talk That Talk because of it possibly being their swan song gave me CHILLS!
I guess why JYPE is pushing retro-synth pop sound to promote to the west is it's because they mastered it. They started from I can't stop which was a massive hit. Followed by Baby Blue Love, The Feels (well accepted by the western audience) to SET ME FREE. I just thought that it may work that way. To promote the group with the sound they mastered and the sound that may appeal to the western audience and TREND at the same time. (2020-2021 was the year of synth-80s pop). That's just my analyzation. hehe...
TWICE is the K-Pop girl group with the most:
- Sales (Korea, Japan, USA)
- #1 hits (Korea, Japan, USA)
- Streams (Korea, Japan, USA)
- Daesang awards
- Total awards
- Music certifications
- Revenue (all-time)
Until any other K-Pop girl group matches this, TWICE will remain the queens of K-POP!
uhm.. okkeeyy.. but who are they again? Are they new group? 😂
Nowadays music awards have lost their value .
Because companies like hybe buys then .
Although twice won all these awards in the past but nowadays awards have no value.
But they have good sales though!
Basically what he tryna say is that Alcohol free is that girl and he is right 🫂
LOL PERIOD
I was surprised that the success of The Feels didn't show JYP that twice's original concept would work just fine in a western market. It's the most typically Twice song they've released since 2019!
Yep. My biggest problem with SMF and One Spark is to me personally they're so boring and I think that's by design to appeal to the West. There's little to no concept. You can be mature and still interesting. But I think the company knows the group has achieved all they can in Korea and has now settled for releasing elevator music they hope will be played on US radio lol
I loved this! And Twice was the perfect example for this kinda of discussion😄
Great video!
Imo as an army i think that the context of the english trilogy is very important to note before criticizing bts's "westernization" it wasnt really an attempt to become big but actually a gift given to them none of the 3 english songs were written with the members. Its also fair to understand that their plans were kinda thrown out with the pandemic (tour and then enlistment which ended up not happening like they planned) they were so burnt out and just wanted to push out something happy after BE
*Joon has songwriting credit for Butter
god thank you. the way he was talking ab the 3 eng singles in this video was driving me crazy. twice and bts arent even close to comparable in this context bc bts were doing throwaway gift songs that were easy, unattached, and impersonal as a time filler while they figured out how to get their derailed plans back on track after the pandemic hit. it wasn't at all a concerted effort to gain traction in the west like it is with twice, because bts gained western traction with their own signature sound way back in 2017. westernization did not influence bts' career at all, ffs they started their group w an inherently western musical sound - hiphop
@@sameehakawsar518THIS!! i 1000% agree with you!
To add to this, he says that the singles harmed BTS image in the general kpop fanbase, but idk about that. Does the general kpop fanbase even really matter in the case of BTS.? Their fanbase only grew and is stronger than ever.
You are right, they being on this video makes no sense
I don't understand this lol.
Much of K-pop's success in the United States is because of most Korean acts employing either hip-hop or EDM as their sonic base but Twice made their bubblegum sound attract Western appeal.
TWICE matured so their music matures with them but they've always stayed true to their roots. They always kept their bubblegum sound while other acts went for western music.
They have a super diverse discography so I don't agree with this narrative at all. TWICE has always been one of the few major acts NOT to go for a western sound.
well i dont understand YOUR comment because...
first of all twice did not attract much western appeal with their bubblegum sound (it was popular in korea and japan), twice started doing much better in the west AFTER their shift away from their bubblegum sound.
they had a shift around 2019 away from the cutesy concepts and bubblegum titles to more mature concepts and...more westernized pop sounding titles and singles. they have also released a lot of english songs and english versions of songs since then- all in the same effort and west goal. (twice actually have the most english songs out of all the big groups.)
from among the top kpop acts i would actually argue twice had the biggest shift to a western aimed sound and appeal.
twice do have a diverse discography, but you are clearly in denial and or biased if you cant see that their shift in sound wasn't just because they matured, but because they are also trying to target a market that they didnt initially aim for.
also, i hate the kpop "staying to their roots" discourse because it implies that groups who try out sounds they arent known for, or intentionally aim for certain music markets...have lost their identity, which is straight up disrespectful and dismissive of the groups work, but also nonsensical.
besides, kpop has always been influenced by two major music industries, the western and jpop- thats where the roots of kpop itself lie anyway.
@@stolas2240 Hahaha what's with the attitude. Delusional and salty much. Bye.
As someone who only properly got into Kpop in 2022, I have a bit of a different take on BTS and TWICE. With BTS, I casually liked Boy With Luv a lot when it was on the radio (I also liked Halsey's voice on the chorus so I was exactly the target demo) after never really liking BTS' original sound when some friends played it for me a couple times. It was a pristine work of pop perfection, and I think that applies to Fancy and I Can't Stop Me as well.
I think the thing with westernization is largely the same challenge with any sound change. If you're doing something new, your chances of misstepping are higher and segments of your audience won't like the new sound. That's why I think I'm not a big fan of Butter, and it's why JYP has also struggled to get Itzy a GP hit as well despite no translation dilemma.
I do agree that simplicity for the sake of translation is a mistake in the case of Set Me Free. I think the solution would've been to just commit to Moonlight Sunrise though as the main title track. I think a lot of groups have made the mistake of too many title tracks the past couple years. Even if Set Me Free had better lyrics, it's still kind of in the middle between Korean and international tastes.
I think a big difference between groups like Blackpink compared to TWICE is that Blackpink started with international friendly sound, but also that Blackpink doesn't have enough songs to need to make that much of a sound change. I think TWICE was already facing diminishing returns with Talk That Talk and they can't go back to the sound of Look At Me anymore.
Ultimately I do think TWICE is kind of at their legacy act stage if their careers. They're not getting the Korean GP back, so they should've committed to Moonlight Sunrise as the title track with Set Me Free as perhaps a promoted b-side without the pressure of having an English version and needing to be catchy for streaming.
That's just my personal preference though. I'm sure others will have their own tastes.
While I found Set Me Free and the album Ready To Be very underwhelming, I feel like the With YOU-th album is much better in terms of balancing the core of TWICE while appealing to the west. Promoting I Got You and One Spark together really showed the bond, time, and care TWICE have for each other. I will say i have still not listened to the English version of One Spark and generally for most kpop groups don't listen to English versions of songs
I get what you’re saying and I agree on all parts except the part where Set Me Free and One Spark don’t add to Twices identity. To me they completely glue their identity together. Because as they mature, they want to be more free in all they do and stick together with that one spark of passion and friendship. I think those songs are more personal ❤
Wasn't kpop always supposed to be westernized?
kpop existed only after getting inspired by pop .
Like 2000's pop songs sounds totally different from today's pop songs . I feel that's what happening to kpop groups. Nowadays songs are trying to sound different from 2000s songs
i love watching your vids (even when i don't entirely agree with what's being said) bc you present your point so succinctly and calmly. it's refreshing to not have a k-pop youtuber screaming their opinion bc they feel that's the only way to make us think the same way you do and you're always respectful about the groups you're talking about. i agree with taste of love being primed for west promotions without maybe intending to but it might be bc it's my fave EP from them lol
this was such an in depth and accurate analysis omg i loved this and this makes so much sense !!
Talk that talk was so iconic I wish they continued that direction
I'm a fairly new fan of TWICE, only getting into them in late 2022, and I agree 100%, I may not have been a fan yet, but I love most of their older stuff. There's nothing bad about the new releases, I mean I love I GOT You,but I much prefer everything before Eyes Wide Open.
Talk that talk and alcohol free were PERFECT releases for me. Honestly I wish div3 would realize that onces like twice because of their unique sound, and those 2 releases were a genius mix between twice’s authentic image and their maturation from cutesy aegyo songs. If we wanted western songs we’d just listen to western artists :/
honestly a while after this i wanna say strategy shouldve been a single instead of an album they shouldve put a different tt for strategy also i prefer twice before 2021 i dont hate there current discography its still good rn but like there 2019-2021 era was peak twice
There are at least 3 major misunderstandings in this analysis:
1. Although Twice was heavily leaning towards cute concept in the begining, they have been very versatile for quite some time, flowing very comfortably through a decent range of genres and gradually maturing their cute image, not replacing it entirely (that felt natural as the girls grew up, didn't feel forced at all).
So the "harming their core" argument cannot be a thing unless you are deliberately trying to gaslight everyone into believing that they've never been versatile until just very recently, and that they are like a fish out of water not being cute 18 y.o. girls anymore.
2. One Spark is one of the most straight-forward, easy to understand songs in their entire discografy. It's just a celebration... while "I got you" was a reflection upon their bond through the hard times of their journey, "One Spark" is complementary to the storytelling, celebrating their journey as profesionals with a very supportive fandom.
Celebration concept might be rare, but it's appropiate for groups with a massive trajectory, pretty much like SNSD's "Forever 1".
3. You really try to enforce the narrative that all the discografy, or at least all the singles, must have a straighforward meaning and a continuity, but that's just closeminded. They are performers and artists, their job is to produce something beautiful for their audience to enjoy while feeling as comfortable as they can, in order to enjoy the journey themselves and don't burn out.
This "losing the plot" argument is lowkey very snob to be fair. By the end of the video, it was pretty clear that you come from a bitter mindset.
this video was completely subjective, like okay whatever yall say...
I couldn't finish the video... You probably really tried hard to find some redeeming quality, but to me, the message was wrong and too repetitive. ^^"
Most Twice songs are pretty unique, especially title tracks, so I'm not really sure what he was going on about Westernization. Maybe I don't know the Western market well enough, but I don't remember hearing songs that refreshing in a while~ Even in their more mature songs, they always have that sweet, positive and lively sound that doesn't suit well Western artists.
It's the same case as girl's generation. As a successful gg who has pretty much done everything there is in the Korean market, they're going to try and expand. Being one of the longest running girlgroups currently, it is bound for them to want to change styles. It is very exhausting for a group to keep sticking to a working formula esp. as artists so I could kind of understand why TWICE are experimenting with different concepts.
i'm speaking more on bts since you covered more about the direction of twice's music but it's important to note that bts themselves knew that the direction of their music as a group was getting murky following their 3 consecutive english singles (putting aside BE, a korean album that they didn't do physical promotions for) especially considering that they didn't do a whole lot of solo work before that (aside from their rap line). that's exactly why they decided to each do solo work right as they went to enlist one by one. (if you're an army, you'd know i'm referring to the festa video of 2022)
so we can't fully tell what their music will sound like when they come back after 2025 because they haven't actually released a regular korean album as a group since 2021 (and their solo work is not the best basis bc well, if you followed them all, they're all so drastically different).
yeah, and maybe a bit off topic but dynamite and ptd were released to support people in the pandemic, by bringing a fun and playful vibe. dynamite was included in BE and bts themselves can explain its message and meanings. i honestly don't know why a lot of people are calling these songs "controversial" and "losted the bts core"
@matongchannel1883 yeah thats as well. the english singles were all released between 2020-2021 and are only maybe 0.0003% of their discography. there was definitely an agenda when they released those (for the difficult times we were in)
Thank you so much for talking about this!! I swear I felt like I was crazy for all of a sudden pulling away from twice while it seemed like others didn’t.
BTS didn't suffer from westernization. In fact they grew from it while keeping their Korean music sonically distinct, at least as a group. Jungkook and Jimin went in a more traditional pop music route for their solo work, which is perfectly fine.
yup, many kpoppies do not know what westernization actually means. BTS never had a specific sound or concept like Twice. As for Twice, I think some onces need to accept that Twice have deviated from their old sound, they’re older now.Like I love twice, but are we going to forget all the hate they got when they were doing cute concepts? Just because it’s in trend rn won’t mean they’ll go back.
Wow, you've managed to so eloquently talk about a problem I've kind of been struggling to formulate for a while. This is so extremely well thought out and informative.
I don't disagree with this general argument, but it seems strange not to discuss The Feels more: it was their first song only released in english, and the amount of times they performed it on western talk shows and such almost mimicked BTS around 2017-2018. Is the darker image westernisation, or are the western releases used as a safe area for Twice experimenting with their concept and sound as they mature?
BTS I think is much clearer: aside from covid-related 'losing the plot', they were trying to see if changing to this overly poppy sound for their English releases would increase American radio-play and maybe bag them a grammy. It was pretty clear from their interviews.
That wasn't clear from their interviews at all....what interviews were u watching is the question????
can you tell me which interview that made you have this idea? because dynamite and permission to dance were released back then to brighten and motivate international armys in the pandemic. they both have a very, very specific message, the bts members had talked about its message themselves on interviews, which means they knew what they were singing about. and if you notice, ptd also have sign language. that's the interviews i watched which contained bts talking about dynamite.
A well thought out, well written, well structured, well-argued essay on a complex topic! Love your specificity and the emphasis on 'lyrical intent', a most under-discussed aspect in most English K-pop songs discourse...
(At least for the rare observant fans and seasoned industry professionals) the elephant in the room - or the missing link, are dedicated adaptation songwriters which are a whole other level of writers above generic/stock English lyricists. So you are right, westernization/ English songs are not the problem, but ambiguous/absent intent. I made a video to attempt to communicate that fact to K producers and that's the best I could do.
as mentioned by others, the girls expressed a desire to make different music. that alone accounts for the tone shift. as for the lyric argument, i don't really buy it. twice's other songs weren't really complex poetry. you say that the newer tracks are ambiguous because they are needed to be translated but i can describe almost all of their singles, ready? Either a non-specific love song with empty platitudes or songs about empowerment and friendship. There. pretty sure i just did all of their singles based on lyrical content. I like twice, but you're suggesting there is more there than there is. it's just not that deep.
I have to disagree - there’s certainly more to it than just non-specific love or friendship/empowerment songs:
Scientist is a love song that lyrically plays with the idea of love not needing a scientific formula, Likey discusses expressing yourself via social media and self-consciousness, even Set Me Free is specific in asking the subject of the story to let their inhibitions about love go so they can be in a relationship freely.
I agree the songs don’t scratch much beneath the surface of what they’re talking about, but a big idea behind what I was discussing is that they don’t *need* to be overly complex. I believe pop music benefits from not being required to overthink things.
Moreover, I tried as best as possible to outline that their change in style is not the problem I’m addressing, nor is it that the songs are being translated by default. It’s how those things are currently impacting the conceptual intention that used to be delivered with TWICE’s earlier projects.
I completely agree that it is “not that deep,” but that doesn’t really matter in this discussion. Even the most shallow of songs can benefit from still having intention behind them in terms of concept
@@choujimi agree to disagree. You sound like you want it both ways. You're ok with songs not being that deep, i agree, that's fine. Your complaint is that some of the newer songs are kind of ambiguous and empty, ok sure. Where we disagree is that i think their songs always kind of were, and you think they weren't. If you take away the videos most of twice's singles are painfully simple love songs aimed at a young audience. Which again, totally fine. But about the same writing quality as the songs you appear to dislike from their modern work.
@@reallifeistoflat I see your points, and the longer this discussion has gone on, I feel like it’s hard to fully explain my perspective on this - I don’t believe I want it “both ways,” I just look forward to some kind of intention behind the concept of even the simplest of songs. What is Love is an extremely simple song, yet conceptually has a very solid premise around the idea of love being drawn from the movies and TV shows that young people consume. It’s not deep nor is it complex, but it is there with obvious intention behind it. It’s that kind of conceptual depth that (quite literally) gets lost in translation for songs like Set Me Free, which are both lyrically and conceptually ambiguous by the end of the product
In the end, and as I said in the video, it’s all subjective and based on personal music taste haha - this is just the way I personally look forward to projects in kpop and music
this video really helped explain something I had definitely noticed and made me lose interest in their new releases but didn't exactly know *why*
One big danger of "westernization" of K-Pop is that K-Pop artists loose what made them unique and popular in the first place. The western market is already full of western artists who are REALLY good / experienced / established in making western pop for the western audience. But existing international K-Pop fans most likely came to K-Pop because it was different. So for K-Pop artists to imitate western pop, making "all english" songs and changing their identity for promoting in the west seems like a dangerous strategy. Sure, K-Pop always was heavily influenced by western music to begin with and has many western composers / writers (especially today). But K-Pop (including Blackpink or New Jeans) didn't just "imitate" western pop. The Korean labels / producers still filtered / mixed it with / through a Korean perspective, injecting Korean (music- and idol-)culture as well as Korean language, creating something "new" as a result. Of course groups like Blackpink or New Jeans naturally have it "easier" in the west than for example Twice because their existing Korean identity already is more compatible with western audiences, but I'm skeptical that changing your identity for different markets is a good idea. For Twice: Maybe go even more all in with your Korean identity to stand out more? I'm surely biased as international K-Pop fan and at least for the Japanese market changing their identity and releasing all Japanese songs sadly seems to work. So long-term it might work for the western market as well? Maybe you win enough new fans that loosing some old fans (and your core identity) is (financially) worth it in the end ? I don't know. That said... there is still a lot of K-Pop in K-Pop and more great K-Pop artists than ever on the market.
Blackpink and NewJeans are more popular in the West than here in Asia where I now live now. They don't even make Top 30 in sales in the vast majority of Asia. Probably need a chinese and indian artist onboard to do better as they account for 60% of Asia's population and 40% of the world's population. All other markets dwarfed by the size & sales value of the chinese consumer market.
@@davidrichards1741 yeah... China surely has the biggest theoretical potential that could dwarf everyone else. But that market has his very own unique barriers of entry for foreign artists. Currently USA is still dominating (although not growing as fast as other markets). I'm always surprised that Germany (where I'm from) still is Top 4 (before China).
According to the IFPI Global Music Report, the top 10 music markets in the world in 2023 where
1. USA
2. Japan
3. UK
4. Germany
5. China
6. France
7. South Korea
8. Canada
9. Brazil
10. Australia
EDIT: Another fun statistic. Only four K-Pop girl groups crossed the 2+ million mark in overall sales for an album... Blackpink being the highest among them, but also aespa, IVE and now New Jeans (not yet certified). Twice of course released so much more albums in total than those groups, so overall only Twice and Blackpink make it into the Top 15 Best-Selling K-Pop groups "of all times". Otherwise boy groups still perform better in album sales. For example BTS, Seventeen and Stray Kids with 5+ million for an album.
i think of the factors why blackpink and new jeans is more loved by westerners is because they have proper english speaking members. the pronunciation of words when they sing and interviews when they promote themselves or insta lives, the english speaking really makes the western fans connect more with them
isn't all of kpop- at its core-westernized?
And that’s what makes these complaints so dumb 😭😭kpop fans don’t want to accept that their interest is fetishization (to an extent ofc)
depends on how you see it. pop is a global genre so being attached to the specific sounds of a different market is pretty valid. but it's kinda like asking isn't american pop swedish. like you can make that argument but i'm not sure it's the best semantic position when "american pop" is a pretty useful term to discuss the specific tastes of that market.
This makes so much sense, I was really let down by set me free and one spark never comes to my mind when I want to listen to twice however I do listen to both English releases and b sides from these albums. Twice has managed to build a western fan base even before these two albums and JYPE needs to recognise this and stick to making music that is true to them
I don't think you really understood what he meant. He isn't advocating Twice to make music true to them because in the video he says Moonlight Sunrise is one of their best track. Now is Moonlight Sunrise true to Twice?? No, not at all. It's the further away from Twice than any other song they've made. Yet he considers that a good song not because it's "true" to them, but rather it's a more "focused" songs with more "meaningful" lyrics.
I have to get out of my feelings for this topic, and I agree definitely with you, Choujimi. It's as if they don't know how to connect their message and concept as group to English in a digestible manner for both western and eastern fans.
It's always one or the other. I LOVED moonlight sunrise and I, as a westerner can definitely see it's not your standard Twice song.
I definitely think if done in a boring or incorrect manner, westernization can be bad for K-pop, but if done correctly it can bring a butt-load of new fans.
I feel like a bad Once saying I didn’t like One Spark but you put into words why! It was too generic and therefore identitiless. I much prefer songs with MEANING. Twice can do it, they’ve done it before. I have hope that Strategy will have a stronger identity.
lol. As if their earlier song have meaning? Come on. One Spark is not any more generic than songs like TT, Knock Knock Cheer up, or Likey. They all were generic. They're all about the idea of love or being loved without going in depth of any MEANING. Sure songs like Feel Special have meaning, but if you look at majority of their earlier hits that were written in Korean for Koreans, they have very very little meaning.
i think another huge problem is that companies just play it way too safe with western releases. some of the best kpop music and concepts are the ones that are a little bit quirky, fun, unexpected, or off the wall. kpop HAS to innovate to grow, because the industry is so fast-paced and fans are always looking for the next big thing. and western releases are never anything new or innovative, because they dont want to startle western audiences, or give them something too unfamiliar. that's why songs like one spark, dynamite, ice cream and numerous others just fall flat. they're basic, predictable, and just somewhat boring. they're trying way to hard to get radio play, and that means they never feel innovative, because they're just copying the western sound.
Saying dynamite fell flat is funny because the fandom doubled/tripled after that release, was a hit in western countries, a hit in SK, a hit in Japan. And for the former two it's still charting nearly 4 years later lol
@user-vv7hc7kb5o no i completely get you, bts are my ults. it charted insanely well but lowkey i think part of that was due to the pandemic: people literally had nothing to do so they were extremely dedicated to streaming. butter and ptd weren't deep in the pandemic but still a lot of ppl were at home. personally alll three of their english releases grew on me a lot and i loved butter from the start, but i know a lot of more casual armies and kpop stans didn't enjoy it that much and i kind of get why. they just don't feel very typically "bts" iykwim, although obviously bangtan delivered on the concept incredibly well
@@soobinsdolphin butter and dynamite still charting in Korea and Japan for example isn't due to the fandom I'll tell you that much lol those songs are gp favorites and now nearly 3-4 years later they're carried by the gp. the fandom has other newer songs/albums to stream.
and yes that's the whole point as you said BTS delivered those concepts very well because that's what they do. they make every song, every sound/genre/concept etc. their own and deliver it with their charm. all tracks they've done in their career is a bts type of track because it's these 7 specific members singing, rapping and or dancing to it
this is such an interesting commentary concept! I think that, unlike japanese releases, westernization of even one album in a group's discography will always be a huge erisk at the very least. I look forward to seeing the longevity of these groups' identities changes
The westernization of Kpop is so interesting to me. It’s interesting to watch how a culture consuming other cultures connect can change that content. I curious how much of the westernization of twice has to do the group members getting older. I know Jihyo has mentioned not wanting to sing songs like Cheer Up now that they’re in their late/mid twenties. Regardless, I do think Kpop companies sometimes don’t understand that a big reason why western fans like the Kpop is because it’s different than what we normally listen to. Ironically I think twice having a cute image has kind of helped them grow in the west. They were able to fill a void that pretty much no one was. Great video as always!
It also has to do with what type of music the members consume, which is mostly western music I believe. Apink and Oh My Girl continue to do their cute concept just fine despite growing up. It feels like some of the TWICE girls are ashamed of their past bubbly and cutesy title tracks, and it's reflected on the setlist of their concert where most of these tracks are condensed into a medley of just 8 minutes. They even prioritize making covers of western artists rather than singing fully these olders songs that shaped their core image. The westernization makes both the group and the members feel lost in their identities. I think that the new mini of album of Nayeon will also continue this shift
@solennev3073 I think you were very spot on here! I totally respect their decision as artists but also I couldn't help but be a little disappointed going to their concert and watching them perform songs of artists I mostly don't even care about, I much rather have seen them performing in units and getting to hear other songs in their discography that I never got to see live etc..but anyways it is what it is
kpop has always been westernized. the ones consuming are kpop and the ones being consumed is western (pop) music
Very well said. I love twice so much but i miss the songs like Fancy, Feel special, Likey, ect ect
yesss, i don't want half-assed english versions of kpop songs (unless they are done well like Cupid) as for me, the apeal of most kpop songs is that i can focus solely on the music, the tone, the danceability, etc. i sometimes want songs that make my head empty, make me forget/ zone out from my real life. not every band/ group needs to have lyrics that need to be deciphered by English professors lol
i agree with most things you said in this video!! however, i do respectfully disagree with the notion that groups drop their identity to promote in japan. this is probably due to the similarities of the two countries in terms of culture but i would argue that groups like twice, snsd & ive didn’t really shift their concept much to promote in japan.
As from the thumbnail,i want to tell you something I enjoy twice's new music more than theur previous releases, It's more my type,But I'll vibe with whatever they release!
And i don't think westernization has ruined twice's artistry in any way!!
i never really thought about the westernization aspect of set me free and one spark, but it does make sense. i guess that explains why my expectations are much higher for the upcoming japanese album; it’s unlikely we would have any songs like those two and they would most likely still stick to the concepts and sounds that have made and kept them popular in the japanese market, which isn’t a guarantee anymore with korean releases. i’m hoping jype realizes soon how much twice is struggling from losing the quirkiness and uniqueness of their feminine and pop-y sound in exchange for music that emulates trends in the west.
Kpop has always been westernized lol the whole inspiration for kpop came from western music
yes but it hasn't always been catering to the american music market, which has different tastes than the kpop music market. also pop has been a global genre for decades, it's a little tired to keep claiming "the west" (whatever that means) owns it
Nope. Just liste to kpop songs from the 2010s. Theyre so unique. Women wetre so feminie and men were masculine. No we have some degenerate gay looking dudes and women who act like men.
very interesting. translating korean in to english will always make the songs so... flat? lacking deeper and prettier meanings... though i believe twice's change up in image, appearance, and marketing is what helped them continue on for so long now
but the lack of a progressive narrative is something im gonna be thinking about. i see what you mean. much to think about much to think abt
bro get out of my head, i swear you're somehow perfectly verbalizing my thoughts in literally every video you post and it's scaring me 😭
Can I just say I love how balanced and reasonable your videos are. kpop fandoms are so polarised nowadays, and its refreshing to hear such reason and nuance
I don't think the lyrics of set me free did anything. I think that's a hot take. There was definitely a change in the sound and the aesthetics with Ready to Be. And I think people recognized that first before deep diving the lyrics. At the end of the day, it was a departure away from the sound that made them popular, from the sound that they curated their fanbase toward for the previous 7 years; it was always going to be a risk but it was a risk that they accepted. I think this song and album, regardless of lyrics, was always going to be risky.
On a side note. I think Alcohol Free suffers from the same message ambiguity that Set Me Free suffers from. I think TWICE was still being marketed to the same demographic that they were when they debuted, which is a much more innocent demographic and singing Alcohol Free and featuring the words Alcohol Free on their posters, etc was a way to keep TWICE's image pure and innocent for that demographic, which became especially important as they reached their mid-twenties. Lyrically they wrapped it in a love song to hide it's true intentions. Same as Set Me Free. I think Alcohol Free and Set Me Free are two sides of the same coin, they had just shifter their demographic in between the two songs.
remember that every opinion is different though. ‘set me free’ brought me into twice fandom and one spark was my first comeback as a once, so obviously these songs mean a lot to me and i definitely can’t call them ‘soul-less’ and ‘life-draining’. imo, twice’s sound and creative direction changed not because of westernisation, but rather because members and fandom have already matured
I think JYP also started to shift TWICE's music when they saw the decline on Korean listeners, as evident on TWICE's placement in Korean charts and music show wins. We know how fast-paced the K-Pop industry is. They saw how TWICE has gained steady recognition, listeners and sales in the west. So in a business perspective, it makes sence to shift their focus on the market that has more ROI.
However, I think its also important to point out that TWICE is a 9-year-old group. Even before their contract renewal, they already cemented their legacy in Korea with numerous accolades, even hailed as the 3rd Gen Nation's Girl Group. 9 years into career, they are still gaining popularity, listeners, and sales especially in the west. They are still selling out arenas all over the world. They are simultaneously past and is STILL in their prime.
They've been through so much, and have also achieved so much, I think they deserve to have the chance to explore other things, mainly their music and their sound because artists also have a need to grow. As much as I want to point everything at JYP for this "decline," let's remember that the girls also have a say on how they want to promote and proceed with their music. They are at that point of their careers where they can now call the shots. Not entirely but its obvious, especially after the contract renewal. Maybe its not the way we wanted as listeners but in some way, this is how TWICE wanted their sound to change.
I think the only thing I'll disagree with you directly is how Set Me Free and One Spark doesn't add up to TWICE's ethos or story. It does. These songs represent how much they value their fans. JYP didn't expect for TWICE to become a global group, the same way the girls probably didn't expect for themselves to be one. But its through their fans that these things became possible. TWICE has always been affectionate with their fanbase, but since the renewal, it has become more evident that the only opinion and feedback they care about are from their fans. Set Me Free and One Spark is not vague if you put in it the context of how much they love their fans.
Think of it as love letters to ONCEs. Set Me Free tells how the fans helped TWICE grow into the women they are now with all the support they gave them. 'Ready To be' is not just a statement of maturity or confidence but its also them asking for their fan's guidance as they mature. Because they are now "ready."
One Spark talks about the girls' passion and trust on each other, traits which the fans have always loved about them. But it can also be interpreted as the the genuine friendship and connection they established with ONCEs, that after all these years, ONCEs are still the spark that gets them going. Its the same with the album 'With YOU-th' which basically means "with you since youth" and it can be dedicated for both their members AND their fans.
THIS. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I THOUGHT BUT I COULDN'T FIND THE WORDS.
I love twice with all my heart, i've been a fan since i can't stop me and i love them sm, but idk, lately i've been having a strange feeling abt them, not that their songs are bad, but they seem to be empty, and that's something that is rlly strange for me because the last thing I'd feel with a twice song before that was emptiness...
I love them but idk, it's not that one spark is bad, it isn't, but there's no flavour, differently from icsm, m&m, fancy, etc.