Why Torchless is Bad: Darkest Dungeon Discussion
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- Опубліковано 2 жов 2024
- It may seem like a hot take, but I promise it isn't.
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People constantly confuse poorly balanced or bad designs in games with "hard". Which, in a very small sense is somewhat true but it's definitely not the same thing.
This is exactly it.
What can u expect?
For example:
People think soul games are hard, when in reality you just need to get used to the garbage controls and a wiki because those games explain nothing to you other than basic controls.
@@matias1278 lol what? I can easily learn a boss after a few tries to learn his moves. Or pick up on mechanics with context clues
@@matias1278 I'd say that only applies to the original dark souls, Otherwise what are you even on about. The main issue in the other games is the broken hitboxes. I unironically apologize if you have a neurological disorder that can impair your movement and decision-making.
@@mrjpeg-cl5jy
Dude im just giving an example on why most people are casuals enough to find souls games hard....
Are you not getting the point or what?
Did i spell that wrong or something?
...but the music gets cooler in torchless!
The real reason to drop the light
Waiiiiiiit so we're not dropping the lute?! (Bass/base).
its way more action packed and stuff
It's rad!
@@ismjason But also The pigs that are clearly fucking
I think the big thing about Torchless is that it wasn't meant to be a standalone play mode, it was meat to be a high risk high reward scenario that cranks up the tension, especially in scenarios where you didn't bring enough Torches or you decide to explore a long dungeon to completion or simply had a long and gruelling layout.
I know that the few times i have gone Torchless because of one of the before mentioned reasons it has made me really tense, it creates this scenario where you are so close to victory but the last few steps could very well kill you, this is emphasised by the music, darker more tenebrous tones etc.
So yeah I agree, Torchless isn't hard, it's artificial difficulty because it was meant to be something the player actively should be avoiding.
The thing is the game is so merciless in high light that low light doesn't actually make it harder in a way that changes how you play the game optimally.
@O K The key part there is proceed with care. You can make a torchless mission for the extra profit it brings you, and those items help you with the extra troubles you're going to have to go through to achieve that, but it's never going to beat just bringing extra torches and be done with it, remove the enemies extra accuracy, damage, stress, chance to be surprised and increase your chance to surprise and scout. I don't think the design was to have a balanced hard mode+ dificulty, but to give more depth to the concept of the higher the risk you are willing to take the higher the reward if you actually pull it off, and that you have to choose wisely when to take an extra risk and when to forfeit a greater reward for an easier one. I don't think that mashes well with "I'm going to increase the probability that the RNG decides to create an extra layer of problems for me and remove my ability to deny that chance"
@O K damn pull your head out of your own ass mate. It's a game everyone can play a game how they see fit and can express their opinion on the games mechanics. No one cares that you get a high from winning torchless runs. And about the RNG whatever you tell me, the fact that you need to restart more than once to get a decent torchless run going just shows how much RNG is a part of the game and can fuck you up no matter how prepared you are. And I thought the "git gud" dark souls guys were bad...
@O K You claim that I made errors in my comment but you didn't bother throwing in one example despite me making "so many" of them... I'm waiting for you to tell me exactly what errors I made. The only fact that I claimed about the gameplay was that you had to restart to get a good run going.
"You don't need to restart... you are forced to"
I don't know if this was irony. If it wasn't I want you to tell me the difference between needing to do something and being forced to do something. If it was irony I feel the need to inform you that in the video the guy said that he had a few restarts before reaching week 10 to get a good run to win the game.
@O K Holy shit, you surely are one of your kind.
Your opinion isn't valid because you haven't beaten the shambler on the old road.
That's possible?lol
@@Rith9789 Nope, it's not. All the fights are scripted.
@@Rith9789 was possible some time ago, got patched out tho
@@bectip2229 Kind of a shame
@@bectip2229 imagine having that happen on your first time lol. Ggwp
Your telling me getting hit with 75 stress in one turn because it’s dark isn’t fair
I tried to be greedy by leaving my torches behind for more money when vestal was on high stress, so the game decided to prove me that confidence is a slow and insidious killer
One Offkilter Jig from a Squiffy Ghast and you could have an entire team with little to no stress, suddenly you're wondering how long you can stave off afflictions, unless you're the type of maniac who packs laudanum
Problem with torchless "extra loot" is that even with light you get more loot, than you can carry. So extra loot is basically nothing, unless you do short dungeons.
Not true...instead of having emeralds in you invy you end up with diamonds...
@@Cryptids_Creations money isn’t really an issue though…
@@spiralphoenix9839 Tbf in early game where you still need to upgrade people afterwards it slowly snowballs because you aren’t losing people quickly enough to have to splash as much cash as you did in early game so In early game doing some dungeons torchless is actually a tough decision where as with late game you don’t need the cash so you just keep high torch
@@sebastiangibson9671 you can just do an antiquarian run and get a good 20-30k in an apprentice mission. I never really had any issues with money. Torchless is really just for the added challenge or to farm shambler.
@@spiralphoenix9839 tho sometimes anti doesn’t show up till late game( what happens to me)
I agree Torchless is imba, but I wouldn't really expect a self-imposed challenge to be balanced. That's part of why I don't like em.
Wasn’t the point of the video that it wasn’t imbalanced but rather it didn’t actually make the game harder? As in switching from lotta light to no light doesn’t change how you’d approach the game because of how little it actually does
@@gypsyofthebard it does change it though, since typical strategies have to be thrown out the window for only the meta strategies of high speed/stun characters. At least until later on in the game when you get other advantages that counter the effects of going torchless such as high scouting to counter surprise and the guild to spec all your characters to have reliable stun moves to reduce incoming damage and stress, making them less of a liability.
@@minktanker9705 but that doesn’t actually shift the strategy of the game??? The best strategy of torchless is also the best strategy for lit torch. Typical strategies aren’t being thrown out the window at all, cause there’s no new mechanics to actually make that the case. Enemies deal more damage and that’s about it
they're arbitrary and pointless by nature. The sort of thing you do for prestige or because it actually dials up the fun for you?
@@gypsyofthebard Torchless isn't supposed to change the meta. But I don't see how no one seems to realize that saying "You're forced to play the meta" means that it is harder. You're forced to play more optimally, so there's less room for mistakes and unoptimized party compositions. That literally means it's harder. Of course full torch meta is the same as torchless meta. It's the same game. I don't know why it has to be different. Why should torchless change the meta? Besides, this entire video is basically "If I prepare for the situation at hand, the situation gets easier". Yeah no shit, if you run dark trinkets and plan around going torchless, it won't be as hard. But that's like saying the Necromancer bossfight isn't hard because I chose the best, most optimal part composition with the best trinkets and skills.
torches?
trinkets?
stuns?
meta?
strategy?
what?
i just click on the skill icon i like the most and noone dies for 80 weeks
Me with Dismas: Funny Gun go Bang.
Me when plague doc and highwayman: haha riposte and point blank shot go brrr
Morgan freeman : little did he know that people are about to die.
i remember my first time playing dd the first mission after tutorial with your usual suspects, the second i ran out of torches shambler spawned and i got wiped at the beginning of the game i thought it was scripted, but no i was horribly unlucky
I would simply uninstall, omfg I would cry
Wait what how do you get to shambler's room without torch?
@@saulmoment4008 Shambler can spawn in hallways as an encounter when your light is zero, not just at the curio
@@SarujinieUras aight another thing to avoid
@@saulmoment4008 yep, that's what shuffle meant in this video, he wasn't complaining about the spawn rate of the weird obsydian thing but the spawn rate of the shambler in dark corridors. At least it will never spawn in a room. That's something.
In the end, the game clearly wasn't designed to be played in torchless all the time. It seems to be an encouraged thing where you want to test your luck.
I agree. It's a balance between seeking an equal challenge and overconfidence.
Sure you might be prepared and reap the rewards, or you might not actually be up to the challenge, in which case: say goodbye to your heroes
I'd played the game before the DLCs, and I've used to send lvl 0 parties torchless on the NG+ (now Stygian) because of the lack of money and resources. The increased stress isn't an issue when you don't plan to keep the heroes in the first place.
This is the intended way to interact with torchless, I'm pretty sure. Just doing torchless missions from time to time with disposable heroes purely for a money haul. That's what it's balanced around (for better or worse). Not full runs.
If torchless added extra effects to certain moves it would've been more dynamic n scary
You mean enemy moves or player moves? Honestly i could see some moves getting modified in different light levels like the occultist's stun maybe hurting him a little bit in torchless since you aren't creating more darkness so the elder gods still want some sacrifice (at first i wanted to make it a boost instead but it's already a pretty strong stun and it loses its main drawback in torchless, buffing it further isn't needed), or conversely using a move that creates light while already at max light could give some nice effect like slightly blinding the enemies.
I agree with the gatekeeping point. People who dismiss a person's input for not beating it on [X] difficulty are toxic.
I disagree with the difficulty point. Torchless runs are harder than standard runs. There is less room for error, re: crits. That is a difficulty increase. Teambuilding must take shambler into account. That is a difficulty increase. You're forced into the meta builds. That's a difficulty increase.
The fact that there's a difficulty increase doesn't magically change how you play the game. In fact, it's the opposite. Higher difficulty in a turn based game just makes you play the optimal strategy all the time. (aka stun + speed for DD)
Bad design is not exclusive from difficulty. If I made a dark souls run where people weren't allowed to ever take a hit and couldn't use bonfires, that would make the game harder. It would also be a poor design, imo, because it would invalidate a lot of spells and strategies, and double down on certain builds. For example: No one would ever invest in vit, and everyone would lower their hp through self-damage to wear the red tearstone ring.
Funnily enough, that stuff is literally some of what happens in dark souls no hit runs that people stream on twitch lmao, you hit the nail on the head
Radiant is best difficulty because that jank difficulty spike isn't as bad
There is no difficulty in having to use more optimized builds.
It is blatantly obvious at first glance that turn economy is paramount, that stress damage is more dangerous than health damage, that being able to relyably hit the enemy backline is absolutely necesseary.
The games meta is relatively easy to deduce, building towards it is a straightforward process.
The plssibilizy space is too limited to provide a true mental challange, constrainimg it yet further actually makes it *easier* by lowering the number of viable moves.
Look at it like this: when is it easier to win a chess game? When both you and your opponent have all pieces at the start of a match, or when you have only a king and a pawn, and your enemy a king knight and rook left?
Surely the former, your forces are greater, and you are not outnumbered! But alas, in the second example your only option is to rush your pawn to the backline, and execute the single.possible series of moves with the queen you made.
Whilst in the first one you have a whole chess match to win.
DD doesnt have enough moving pieces, gives you little control over most, and limits your options severely in how to utilize what it does offer.
@@egoalter1276 I dont think your chess analogy quite works, because your opponent in DD has the same "pieces" whether you use the optimal strategy or not.
A more correct analogy would be:
Regular DD is like trying to win a regular chess game.
Torchless is like trying to win a chess game where your opponent has the regular pieces, but you intentionally sacrifice all your pawns before trying to take any pieces.
@@CatacombD The chess analogy doesnt work at all, if you take it literally, because in DD your opponent doesnt play at all, it makes moves completely randomly. I made it to make clear what I mean by restricting viable modes of play, and why I dont htink it makes for an increased difficulty.
Since obviously it would be impossible. even for a grand master, to win a chess game without pawns from the start against an opponent who was at least moderately competent at chess.
I do torchless with the antiquarian for money and dodge
Doesn't more torch give your more dodge?
@@onion69420 but m o n e y
4 Ant bis, 50k money
@@alpakapucuf3394 DOSH
While torchless is not amazing in term of gameplay, the music is what makes it good imo.
Endless pig squealing in the warrens
And the shamblers are like that cuz it's not balanced around never using a torch its balanced around making it extra tense if you dont have any light I believe?
Alright vid but a few counter arguments. Most people who aren’t doing torchless usually have the max light level so they’re going from the best light to the worst which is a significant amount of extra stress and damage. All those times you were 1 hp away from a deaths door check in regular are now deaths doors and the debuffs which come with that in torchless. The disparity between the two light level can be pretty jarring for the average player. Next is the extra loot only really helps in short dungeons. For bigger dungeons you were already leaving with a full pack while using torches so the no light extra loot really only affects small dungeons. Then, you can say you didn’t have to learn anything for torchless because you were already an optimized player. You were already playing the game optimally so they’re really wasn’t much room for improvement. You were already prioritizing targets and abusing stuns which helped you a lot you said but enemy attacks would still get through because you can’t stun every single attack. All the attacks that got through are now more punishing which is just objectively harder. It just didn’t feel that much harder to you because you were meta gaming in a sense and you got through the game doing that. When using torches you can still scrape by using weaker team comps, making more misplays or just getting bad dice rolls even if only barley. Half the situations you can scrape by on normal mode would’ve been deaths in torchless mode.
I appreciate the thorough response! I'll answer what I can here:
- You're right that death's door is more common because of the damage spike.
- I think the extra loot helps in all dungeons, specifically long ones. For long missions your inventory is usually filled with provisions for the first ~1/3, until you camp and do some fights. The torchless loot bump helps make up the lost profit on the remaining dungeon, especially if the dungeon itself isn't giving you many chances for loot in general (lack of curio, battles etc). You also saves a lot of gold over the playthrough by not having to buy torches.
- "All the attacks that got through are now more punishing which is just objectively harder."
I can see why people think this, and in one way they are correct to think that. I personally don't find this difficult as a strategic challenge, it's just bs. What would be the line of absurdity is something that needs to be asked. Is the enemy bypassing death's door more challenging, or is it bad design? Is the enemy automatically afflicting you on each stress attack challenge, or bad design? This has been the biggest point of contention in the video I feel. I also explained that after the opening 10 weeks, after getting a couple trinkets and guildhall, this aspect of the game declined sharply. After that, shambler was the primary concern. The stat bump felt less noticeable.
- "It just didn’t feel that much harder to you because you were meta gaming in a sense and you got through the game doing that. When using torches you can still scrape by using weaker team comps, making more misplays or just getting bad dice rolls even if only barley. Half the situations you can scrape by on normal mode would’ve been deaths in torchless mode"
You're right, and I hope I don't sound like an elitist in this video because that wasn't the intention. The intention is to disarm the elitists that use torchless to gatekeep.
People do the thing you're talking about at the end in every mode of life.
"Oh you were in the army? Well you weren't infantry so it doesn't count. Oh you were infantry? Well you didn't see combat so it didn't count. Oh you saw combat? Well you weren't special forces so it didn't count. Oh you were special forces? Well you weren't in an elite unit so it doesn't count."
From experience, the people who do this are not the people in the trenches doing the work. They're poorly adjusted low achievers with bad attitudes. Address the issue if the situation requires, and then just ignore them. Don't drag yourself through the mud arguing with self righteous idiots.
As an ex-soldier on the front lines back in 2009-2012, (Afghanistan), I've gotten that a lot from our mechanics, Depot specialists ("clerk's") and drill sergeants. In my eyes we all pulled our weight, got our experience which differs per person. It's a shame when it's used as an argument though. As for Darkest Dungeon, we all run into sudden crits, heart attacks or other negatives eventually right? :) Too bad that we've got to deal with people that you mentioned... When things has been somewhat dreary enough without their input! Cheers.
@@JohnSmith-kb4re I'm sorry to say this, and break it to ya... But I wouldn't view our experiences as heroic or justifiable. However not all of us were causing upheavals or chaos wherever we went. I never shot a civilian, nor anyone unarmed - I've killed in service, but for what I carried... It was a rather low amount, of lives that was claimed. My hope is that scaring off combatants rather than aiming for their vitals... Gave them a chance to make a different options for the future, at the risk of my and other's lives. I won't claim to be a hero, but I won't sit here and accept being tarnished by someone who can't seem to see both sides ... Or shows unwillingness to.
@@JohnSmith-kb4re Generalizing an entire group for the sins of some is pretty shallow. You should look inwards as to why you feel the need to do that.
This is pretty much the ultimate gaslight. It’s just like some person who encounters trauma and some dickwad shits all over them because they had it worse.
Aint no true scotsman...
Yup, we need "Cosmic" difficulty.
Canival + nightmare mod if you are a machocist
Torchless is the hardest when there is no full-color mod active, it becomes a battle with oneself. I wanted to add a cool Wayne June quote but couldn't think of any of the classics that would fit, bombard me with suggestions
Darkness closes in, haunting the hearts of men.
The front line of this war is not in the dungeon, but rather, inside the mind.
Madness, our old friend.
The darkness holds much worse than mere trickery and boogeyman.
Remind yourself that overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer.
Once I've read that *less light=more loot* I just toss them away to have more inventory space
Honestly: I like challenge runs like "no vestal" or "torchless" same as "bloodmoon" or ,"only one of each hero" because I like the game, but don't want to play it again and again in the same way.
Especially with torchless there's just so many mechanics that are tuned towards it (quirks, trinkets, the constant fear of shambler) it feels nice to delve into it and see how it plays!
It's maybe comparable to battle brothers where you can do challenges in terms of not building "optimal" bros, but instead trying something new.
Sure, most of the time it's a bit harder and the reason why people rather do the tried and tested builds.
But it also makes your brain think in a different way about game mechanics which is just tons of fun, say what you want!
Like building that 9 star beggar with + 5 mdef and 45 atk with 80 stam 35 resolve.
torchless is RNG fest at the start and then because a game of exploiting the AI to stall...
And then there's me who forgot to bring torches
Yeah, torchless isn't hard at all; Took me a few dozen retries but it ain't hard! Just play the game right and don't mess it up and it's like, seriously, like, not hard at all. ;-)
I decided to edit and add a second part. I'm clearly being sarcastic and making a friendly jab. I'm not trying to drum up an argument or start $#!+, but you've gotta think about what you've just said there: Darkest Dungeon is a very difficult game and going torchless does make it much more difficult - Going torchless, or even just playing through the base game normally doesn't seem so difficult NOW, but that's only because the game's been out for like 5 years and we know the good strategies (what teams to assemble, what trinkets to bring, etc).
Remember how many of your heroes died, how many trinkets you lost, how many party wipes, and etc, etc, etc in your first campaign.
The point of playing torchless is the music. It becomes a real banger when you play torchless.
All the squealing in the Warrens is annoying though.
Oh yeah well you haven't beaten the entire game torchless bloodmoon all bosses with only Dismas and Reynauld without taking damage so you're bad
That thing about the Shambler spawn rates is a perfect example of my belief that as Darkest Dungeon went on, it started to get just too much shit in it for Red Hook to make everything work perfectly anymore. That's why I'm so interested in DD2; having a tighter, more focused gameplay experience should (hopefully) make balancing a lot easier.
I remember having a Crusader with: Night Owl; Quick reflexes; Slugger lockdown and Risk Taker with the Cresendo Box and Focus Ring, in combination with Hellion, Highwayman and Occultist. The enemies just die in the first or second round because my party was so fast and full of critical attacks. It was a walk in the park every single time.
But you got like: And now, Darkness holds dominion, black ad death. Which is pretty cool to hear
I just purposefully use complete darkness with Antiquarian for that dolla dolla 💵
Never knew why its easier to find more loot in total darkness and why am I surprising enemies and not they surprise me when I walk around with light in the darkness giving away my location.
the ancestor says that in darkness shiny things are more easy to notice fsr
The light blinds them.
This feels like you're criticizing the game designers for not balancing the game around a community made "house rule".
You wouldn't do a one type run of Pokemon and then complain that the Devs made certain gyms too hard or too easy.
tbf he's moreso criticising how the community views it as the definitive difficulty, and he explains how it's flawed as a challenge mode. Ofc, it wasn't exactly intended this way and you have no reason whatsoever to ever play torchless, it's more of a punishment for not using your torches well. The issue is when some people will say "oh your opinion isn't valid until you beat torchless bloodmoon" etc, which happens fairly frequently.
@@flagellantbestgirl Fair enough.
His major point is that torchless are artificially difficult. Light is an important skill in decision making. Removing Light removes an important skill component in the game, therefore the game is more luck based at the start. This difficult disappears after week 10 because of scouting.
His other major point is that Darknest Dungeon players use torchless as reference to balance. His counter-argument is that the game is not balanced numerically on torchless therefore it limits scope of viable playstyles. If anything, torchless showcases all imbalance playstyles in the game which are high-speed character with insane damage output and stuns.
Everytime everything seem too good.
I always go torchless to make myself feel desperate again.
Not only the reward increase curve doesn't really change that much but they pretty much also punish you out of nowhere for doin' nothing. truly a game mechanic for a masochist torchless is.
Anyway, just ignore any bad mouth gate keeping commentary that you get shuffle
Newer player. Been scared to try torchless runs because it always just felt like things were too risky vs the reward you get. I really appreciate the breakdown and analysis of the mechanics and "meta-game" discussion. Feeling more comfortable with the idea of trying torchless now with the knowledge you're dropping :)
Happy to help :)
Good to hear my girl Missandei (Arbalest) doing good in the dark!
I play torchless explicitly because I find it easier overall. Yeah, the stress can be a real bitch, but the increased treasure, more open space in inventory, the higher crit rate, the higher surprise rate all balance out, along with the trinkets that work better under low-light conditions. Just makes torchless FEEL better to me. All around a good video, I have to agree for the most part.
All torchless did was extinguish my motivation to beat it
Me doing a torchless run.
Enemies +90% crit rate
All encounters are ambushes.
When near death the next encounter is shambles.
well the game wasn't ever really designed to be played like this. torchless is just trying to wring more content out of a game where there clearly is none. why is "game design" relevant here?
also, if you keep adding self-imposed challenges in this kind of game to artificially make it harder, all it's gonna do is make you play in a more specific way to control variables because consistency is king. this will inevitably lead to predictable play patterns and optimized strategies, and it happens in other games with similar mechanics like Slay the Spire or whatever. you could substitute "no torch" for any other improvised difficulty additive and the result would likely be the same.
Torchless for me is fun for the added loot. That and the artificial challenge to it spices up the game.
As others commented, it isn't made to be played as a full run, just in tense patches.
I wish they made it a well balanced and unique standalone mode with like new enemies, mechanics, etc and not just numerical adjustments.
"torchless doesn't make it harder because you have to use the best strategies in the whole game to beat it" literally the definition of harder
I thoroughly explained how the game felt the exact same after 10 weeks. You aren't forced into "meta" strats because they are the most optimal, you're forced into them because the stats get inflated so hard that other strategies fall behind. That's poor design, not challenge.
@@ShuffleFM sorry, I posted a shitty sarcastic reply to your reply. Here's a better one. The fact that you are forced into the optimal strategy means it is more difficult. We can talk all day about why it is more difficult and poor design and balance could be at the bottom of it, but despite the reason for the difficulty spike, and your feelings about how it is implemented, there is still a difficulty spike. So for people who want that extra level of difficulty it is a good option, even if only for the first 10 weeks. It is a rogue like after all and the start of a run can make or break it
@@brynchubb2980 he literally said there is no difficulty spike. Like, imagine you're playing Mario, but standing still for 3 seconds instantly kills you. If you're even a little bit good at Mario, this Does Not affect you at all. He's saying it's similar to that.
Torchless mode punishes behavior that players like him would never even take.
Oh man, I got a story for the comment section.
So me and my wife love this game to death. She was playing and I was playing in the same room, her on her lenovo, and me on my battlestation. I hear her say something like "Hun, there's this orb, something about the void." "Baby, do you think interacting with that is a good idea?" A few moments later, I hear "WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT THING?!" I automatically know what's going on. I know better. I have played this game tremendously. I know the what the darkened corners of the game hold. I instantly bark at her, "WHY WOULD YOU INTERACT WITH SOMETHING THAT LOOKS LIKE THAT, FOR ONE, AND TWO, GOOD LUCK!" I can hear everything going wrong behind me. Seflish Vestal. Rapturous Flagelant. Stalwart Highwayman?
Oh... Well, I guess she might actually make it through it. Meanwhile, I continue to level up these four heros I've thrown together. They're some plebs I don't care about, equipped with toss-away trinkets. Just some Anti, An arbalist, A man at arms, and a leper. This combo does not work, but whatever. I'm just grinding money and exp for stupid missions. Since I'm going for gold, I'm in darkness the entire map. After all, I know the game. You gain tons of gold and items when you explore in the dark! I'm basically done anyway. I hear her somehow actually survive the Shambler, and lose nobody even though most of them were near heart attack. I just shake my head. Why would you ever see the shambler intentionally? WELL, GUESS WHO SHOWED UP FOR DINNER BECAUSE THE LIGHT METER WAS 0! IT SURE AS SHIT WASN'T THE COLLECTOR LIKE I THOUGHT IT WAS!
I instantly scream "WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT DOING HERE?!" Instantly, she spends no time roasting me. I thought I knew the game. I thought I knew it's mechanics, but I forgot the most important thing. Overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer. Those four fuckheads that were all undergeared, underleveled, and with absolutely no major synergy were not ready for the shambler that had a 1% chance to show up in pure darkness. The loss of heros and trinkets I didn't care about was not my concern... it was my now very injured ego.
I started taking torches on anti runs again. Not enough to detract from the profits, but enough to keep above 0. I noted my mistakes. I learned from them.
Torch manipulation for loot makes much of the challenge of torch less not even feel rewarding. I wish there was a torch less option (true 0 light no moves or found torches) that had even more boons and nerfs.
Just dont buy torches and shift click the torch when you get into the dungeon...remove the urge to manipulate entirely..
Inventory management on torchless is the true difficulty xD too much loot, so many stacks of gold to move around
I got a mod that makes torchless even harder. Depending on the light level, enemies that are usually only found in the Darkest Dungeon, have a chance to spawn. This can range from the ascended cultists to those flesh creatures and finally to the templars. This counts for camp ambushes too, as I got ambushed by templars once.
They should have not allowed scouting when torchless
Terrifying tbh, but I'd try it
Honestly, yeah. It makes sense too, if you have no light then obviously you wouldn't be able to see what's ahead.
Yea we have never enjoyed Torchless, it was just a means to getting ahead $ wise, but it was never fun.
Is it fair to say torchless is poorly balanced when it was not initially designed to be a separate challange in the first place? It is more like a punisment for players who mess up with provisions and a high risk opportunity to get extra money if this pasrticular expedition seems too easy. Like, snuff the torch if you are near the end of the dungeon in good shape and still have several empty slots in inventory. Even the Shambler - if you have a couple of hallways left, risk of meeting him just spices things up. But of course if you always travel with 0 light Shambler becomes a problem.
So it is not bad design or balance. It is more like we - the players - have misunderstood and mistreated tourchless.
You say that Schamblers are the main differences between torch and torchless ; and then u say the game isnt more difficult in torchless. Even if it was due to schamblers only that would be a good enough argument to say torchless is harder to me. Yes we can scout hallway fights but sometimes we cant dodge them.
You say the fact that we get crit a bit more is insignificant and that u only had un unlucky crit streak happenend to you once with ur MAA , ok that s fair enough , but one time is enough sometimes to ruin a run and send 1 or 2 char to the graveyard , it s what happenend to me on my first torchless stygien bloodmoon or whatever it s called attempt and it was just brutal (crit from dismas's collector + bleed into insta vestal death) and would have been way less likely to happen with light.
You also said the first 10 week were harder , and I agree yes they are.
You also said the meta in torchless is stun and speed , yeah , the thing is without torch we can get away without playing like that , we can use pretty much everything whereas in torchless we have to play optimaly , that seems like a harder game mode to me.
About the benefit of playing torchless the main one is increased loots but we also have to spend more one average to stress relief in town and gold isnt a big issue overall with torch anyway.
Finally one a side note CC and COM are full light modes , but we specs our trinkets and quircks to be torchless ones and have to bring the same heroes to now full light missions.
So overall I agree with you Torchless is not well balanced , but I truely think it s objectively harder, even if not in a fun/balanced way.
Always interesting to hear your thoughts tho , so thank you for uploading this !
The thing about calling torchless “harder” is that its really just kinda more restrictive. The “difficulty” in the early weeks isn’t really anything you as a player can do anything about either, so I wouldn’t call it that either. Torchless is a fine challenge but it’s also very arbitrary in what it buffs, making some strategies outright better, while neutering others. This is fine, but what Shuff’s calling out here is how the community seems to treat it as this golden standard of the highest difficulty when in reality it’s like any random self imposed challenge. You also don’t really have to play optimally in torchless, small mistakes are fine.
What I think I did a bad job explaining in this is that when I say torchless isn't hard, that doesn't mean it's easier than regular. Shambler spawns and getting hit harder in general definitely does increase the difficulty on paper. My example with MAA was more talking about how a crit streak can happen at any time. I've lost heroes to random crits from units like collector, or occultist bleeding out my shieldbreaker from a 0 heal.
I wouldn't say that torchless forces optimal play more than it exposes how bad the balance scaling is which incentivizes scouting, speed, and stuns. You don't need these to win but it makes it much easier. We do need to spend more money in torchless early on, but I made sure to grab clips from the later portions of the game where I'm doing torchless and my heroes are fine on hp and stress, showing that the downside of spending more money to stress heal is only in the opening weeks of the game. In my normal bloodmoon runs money feels like an issue for the entire time. In torchless money was only an issue at certain points.
The point about balancing trinkets/quirks around torchless messing up courtyard and farmstead is a good one.
It is "harder" in a sense, but it isn't harder because it was well designed. It's only difficult because of the restrictions in the early weeks which makes the ridiculous stat bloat harder to deal with. I personally don't think that me having to overcome a game's design flaws means it's hard in the traditional sense.
Regardless, thank you for the strong response and taking the time to address the video
@@ShuffleFM And thank you very much for the detailed answer , glad we can have civil debates on your chanel !
You are def right on the money aspect , I guess it s also a matter of playstyle in in the end and I can see you being right on everything u said , maybe it just happened to not be my experience and actually it s probably the case .
See you in dd2 brother ^^
I don't understand why so many people are complaining. The game is fun with or without torches, but it's definitely harder without torches
Unrelated to the topic, but this video also taught me that you can pop a campfire while you have loot remaining to collect and you can sort through it during your resting period, rather than scramble to stuff as much of it as possible into your bags before camping.
Torchless is just DD but with a higher chance to lowroll RNG early-game. Challenge isn't just lower RNG chances, it's features that require more skill/thought/preparation to deal with.
Torchless is defiantly harder. But the added difficulty is more in the preparation. In normal light you can bring almost any team comp and be successful, on torchless you have to bring classes that work well together and do what you need them to do. But that's just my opinion. What I love about this game is that you can play any way you want to; myself, I like bringing in random parties to the endless harvest and messing around.
Restricting the viable.method of play is not difficulty.
I've been looking for a torchless guide for the last week. Thanks for this!
Torchless is a creation of the player base. It was never intended to be a separate game mode. It’s more of a risk-reward scenario for the opportunistic and a penalty for those who go in unprepared.
Kind of unfair to judge it by the standard of “game mode balance” when it isn’t even intended to be a proper mode to begin with.
So what you’re saying is that playing with torches just let’s you have more fun by not playing optimally?
Not playing torchless just means a larger number of builds are viable, but it doesn't necessarily change how the game is played. The most optimal way to play with and without torches remains exactly the same, which means playing without torches changes literally nothing important. You still end up playing the game the same exact way, which is a shame because it'd be nice if the mechanical changes for going torchless caused the player to switch up strategy and play in a unique and creative way, but it doesn't. So whether the ability to use less optimized builds in a run with torches improves the fun factor is up to the individual, personally I have more fun playing optimally because I feel I have more control and can interact with the game on its deeper levels. Using less optimal builds are more like novelties that I indulge in every once in a while. But for others their favorite characters might be suboptimal or they may have fun "memeing" with the 4 Lepers build.
Overall I think that when a game designs a large number of options like DD does, it should strive to make all those options of near equal value. Unfortunately, as is the case with most games that have so many options, DD has many options but most of them are lesser in comparison to others due to game design and enemy behavior. This causes a player's sense of fairness to be snuffed and they often get a little upset that things are so imbalanced, which is a fair complaint. Why introduce an element of play if it's not worth using? Why invalidate things I like or may want to use? It's not on purpose, but it's frustrating either way.
Sorry for the rant, but hopefully you find some information in here interesting.
You say torchless only reinforces the “meta,” but then point out that you have to build your team around encountering shambler, but that seems like a whole new meta to me. Especially with how you cannot run away now, and the over-tuned spawn rates, that seriously impacts the team formation you bring. I get that everything else is mostly the same in terms of what is good or bad compared to with-torch, but I don’t see how else redhook could have added to the torchless experience without strictly adding content. Your idea of having new enemy moves in torchless is really cool- It has me imagining how sick a torchless-focused DLC would be (not sure how DD2 handles pitch black, I haven’t seen any content from it).
Also the torchless trinkets completely shift the meta as well, IMO. It would have been really cool if each class had torchless class-trinkets (perhaps for the imagined dlc, just like a crimson court set). The DLC could even add a new region that you can only play in pitch-black. That would give so much use to the low-light trinkets in the base game too, which would be particularly cool because I know 95% of people don’t play torchless and never use them. Getting people to play torchless would also let people experience the much more intense atmosphere and visuals, which you ordinarily only experience during ambushes or shambler fights. Those low-light positive quirks finally become much more desirable too. I’m imagining a new class type, something akin to a werwolf (mechanically similar, thematically it may want to be something else to make it distinct from the abomination (or, maybe not)), that has different transformations per light level. The base heros’ moves could have added effects at different torch light (imagine Crusader’s stress heal working best in high-light, and not even working at all in pitch black, with a cool animation signifying that).
Considering it seems both the casual and experienced playerbase don’t care much for the torchless experience, I think an entire re-work that adds new low-light content and incorporates base game mechanics would be very well received. Considering the game is named “Darkest Dungeon,” I’m honestly surprised they didn’t consider this. Damn, maybe I should quit my job and go into game design.
Bit of a tangent, but great vid Shuffle.
I think you should get reduced stun chances in low light to really make it a challenge.
Also, the added loot amounts kind of circumvents alot of the darkness issues.
Some of these comments are absolutely vile, you all should be ashamed of yourselves
I realized I put this on the wrong video, but it certainly does apply to some of them here
Now I'm curious what video it was meant for lol
Honeslty I feel like this apply to 99% of videos on youtube ^^
Old Shambler getting despawned by you just running away from it: ua-cam.com/video/UMAAwgjuq9M/v-deo.html
Also shuff, it was torchless stunless you stinker. Even then, torchless no stress heal was way more impressive imo.
What "No gold" means?
I think one really good challenge is "no hero doubles". Add no deaths/no retreats as well. It makes you appreciate some characters you otherwise wouldn't use, especially in DD (you have exacly 16 different heroes excluding arbalest skin and antiq, coincidence?). Or some of their playstyles. I wouldn't have found supp backline cru if it wasn't for me going for this challenge. Unfortunately that is the only thing I found, but I was already pretty confident with the game when I first tried this.
Maybe this is just me... but when someone is making an argument and admits they throw for content it makes it hard to trust if they are being honest. Maybe they are just saying this for content?
I'm saying this because too many people gatekeep with torchless. If you would rather pretend my opinion doesn't matter because of something like keeping my viewers interest in mind when I make videos, then it sounds like this video is specifically speaking to you and that you need to listen.
Try beating it on torchless bloodmoon in 5 weeks with 1 seeker antiquarian scrublords
No torch is for when youre broke and need cash, its very high risk high reward. not bad design. Also id like to point out if anyone gonna do a 100 percent torchless run, its self imposed. Much like a nuzlocke, adjust your rules till you have fun. Fun is the point!
Tl;dr touchless is only a challenge when you lack game knowledge, and with proper game knowledge the benefits of playing touchless act to balance out the additional challenges, thereby not changing the difficulty all too much. While I agree it's not great as a "challenge mode" run, I dont think that's what black as pitch is meant to be. I think it's meant to be a gamble, I do this run or this fight in the dark because I need some extra loot now, or to actually punish an unprepared player with difficult fights for not bringing enough torches, but because it's not total asshole game design it rewards perseverance despite itself.
This is the correct idea. One of the reasons I made this video is because people in the community point to this as the thing to beat if you want to be "good" at the game, so I had to knock that idea down.
@@ShuffleFM ah, that makes sense. I'm kind of a casul so I'd never heard that sentiment before
@O K except he mentioned that. A lot.
@O K I'm not getting into an argument over an opinion on an optional setting on a 6 year old game lol, just say your mind wasnt changed and move on
The bonus loot isnt even worth it, my inventory fills up halfway through medium and long dungeons
You do torchless for the increased loot or challenge, I do torchless because I hate having to carry torches around and remember to top up the torch. We are not the same.
The start on torchless is brutal, and scouting is even more important
It’s called egocentrism. That’s when you play a game over and over until you’re good at it, then say it was never hard in the first place
If I thought this game was easy, I wouldn't be putting out guides for it.
@8:15 wait, you can camp with a treasure window open? Whaaaaaaaaaa? Mind: blown.
Come back at me when 2 spiders in a row crit your backline heroes and kill them
Torch less is easy! It only took me a few dozen attempts to make it to week 10! Then it's easy after that! But my first two files are lost now!
Yes because the start of the game is the most rng prone. Weeks 2 and 3 are literally the hardest of the whole run lmao.
From a code perspective it would have been pretty easy to add darkness based attack, all you would have to-do is if lightobject.lightlevel == 0 and (attack conditions):
Attack,
(Depending on the language of course), though I suppose it would be pretty expensive to pay the artists to draw up custom animations from each of these attacks.
I mean get Notepad++ (No worries ist is free) and give moding a shot. As soon as you figured Out the filestructure it is quite intuitive. There is a good steamguide Out there on some of the basics. Basically you generate a folder with your Name for the Mod in the Mod folder, in there you need a project File (generated from the stepps in the modingguide or get one from a Steammod and modif it.) A Preview Image and a Mod. Your Mod nerds to mimic the file structure seen in the Game. Then you just put your modded file where it belongs with the same name as the original. No you don't need to Copy the stuff you are not moddifing. And you don't need to call every file like mods downloaden from Steam do. The project File ist enough. If you start to mod the other attacks when torchless, you need to modify the Monster brain and the Monster itself. Add a new attack with an Animation you can reuse. The condition torchless needs to be set in the monster brain. I would Look at the torch stuff how the torch value is refered to (or at shambler spawns (propavly in encounters) how the game Checks for complete darkness.) Sorry for the long Post with autocorrect Errors typing on my phone.
Language I think is a little Like Javascript. (At least thats wahr that one Guide told me to set Notepad++ to)
its not as easy as you mentioned. first the monster AIs in dd are scripted (not hard coded) but the requisitions and rules are hard coded. so there needs a lightlevel rule to be added to the script parser.
and btw your example also doesn't take into account things like positioning that already makes monsters pass turns sometimes
Not only do you sound like me with a slightly deeper voice, but you also have a cat named Loki, apparently.
So it's not harder but you need to play a very specific way to avoid dealing with the added challenge, yeah that's added difficulty my man if you need to think about it at all time and adapt your every team around.
Nah, it just reinforces the use of already powerful mechanics like stuns, scouting and speed. It's poorly tuned, and as I said in the video it felt pretty normal after 10 weeks with the only difference being shambler spawn rates that I also explained as being bad since it was balanced around you being able to despawn shambler, which they removed but kept the rates anyway.
It isn't meant to be played as a game mode for an entire campaign. It's meant to be a punishment for if you don't prepare with enough torches, or if you want to risk it for extra loot in the short term.
Bad design is not challenge. If the enemy ignored deathblow or if 1 stress attack was auto afflict in torchless, people would still be defending it as hard instead of bad design. It's all a matter of where your line is for when it's bs and no longer a well made challenge.
You dont adapt shit. Its not any more difficult than having to wear a fucking uniform instead of dressing however you like.
Unless you delude yourself into thinking coming up with a meta team composition is somehow challenging in a game with ATBS combat, all of two types of tick damage, and obfuscated and randomised initiative order.
I used to go torchless on short hard missions to farm some safe gold, until I lost my 4 best characters to a wild Shambler.
Fuck torchless.
I'm sorry, but why even is torchless supposed to "change the meta"? It's supposed to be more difficult, not change the game. You saying you need to play more optimally actually kinda proves it is more difficult, since you're not allowed to make as many mistakes. Besides, this just kinda felt like a "If you prepare for it, it's not that hard". Yeah no shit, if you wear the right trinkets and base your party around going torchless, it certainly won't be as hard as when it happens naturally in game. That's sort of the point of preparation.
It isn't forcing you to play optimally though. It forces you into stun spam teams because the game doesn't address resists alongside the ridiculous damage boost. Shambler spawn rates are balanced around being able to despawn it which they took out but never adjusted the spawn rate to compensate.
If I prepare the same and the challenge drops after 10 weeks that doesn't mean it's hard. It means the early game is such an unbalanced fiesta. Poor balance =/= difficulty. It's the illusion of difficulty.
It's supposed to change the meta for being a challenge mode, especially with how hard some people gatekeep with it.
@@ShuffleFM Stun and speed is the meta. Forcing stun-oriented play is forcing a meta, a.k.a forcing to play optimally.
Challenges are not "supposed" to change the meta. They are, for 1, user-made, not by the devs, and 2, challenges. If I challenge myself not have a single character die, it does not change the meta of most effective thing in combat. The "meta" argument is stupid.
I mean honestly, I agree with you however I gotta say I prefer torchless because i just end up getting gold way, way faster. Good video as per usual Shuff ✌✌
Torchless, bloodmoon, crimson court on...literally the best way to play the game.
@Nathan Hewitt my buddy and I like to wake up early on weekends and start new estates. See how far we make it before someone dies. If its before week 25 we start new estates lol
The funny thing about this is that it's impossible to truly play torchless with CC because the Courtyard always counts as max torch.
Well construed and fair argument. However, I'm bad at the game and don't know how a lot of the mechanics work so checkmate.
I lol'd
Comp? Effective management? _Speed?_
Nah mate.
C R U S A D E !
You were talking about spending most of your money and getting down to 10,000 gold and I thought about how in my most recent game I was desperately selling trinkets so I could afford food for the next mission.
I remember my first torchless dungeon...
I accdentally drop all torches, i was trying to know what Ctrl, shift and space did to the items
I had to finish with 4 torches, i ran out at half dungeon, evryone got stressed out, tons of negative quirks, BUTT***** Got my first Blasphemous Vial and the mask with blood for the lepper
Yeah torchless ain't that bad. Which is why they removed it in DD2 and just made you get jumped by cultists when your torch runs out
Low-light or no-light is a more-risk-more-reward situation which is designed to be increasingly stressful for the characters and the player. Faster characters and stuns will not save you from the character stress from walking in dark hallways, or the player stress from a more unsettling atmosphere and more frightening music, or the shared stress of the potential of running into a frightening and dangerous monster.
You also mention Scouting. The simplest (but not necessarily most effective) way to increase Scouting is by having as much light as possible whenever you enter a new room. This also greatly increases the odds of enemies being surprised rather than the party, giving you extra time in the first round to do speed boosts and stuns, and of not having to rearrange your party (which costs turns, being little better than having your characters stunned).
So, the stunning, speed, and scouting which you mention as being critical, are all things associated with high light levels. By reproducing those advantages in low-light or no-light situations, you essentially turn them into high-light situations with different aesthetics.
The tension of keeping as high a light level as possible (lighting a torch whenever it reaches 76, or using character abilities to raise light to 100 during each fight) is that the supply of torches is not infinite, torches take up valuable inventory space, movement through the level continuously lowers the light level, and light-raising character abilities can only be used during fights.
The obvious inventory advantages of no-light or low-light make it tempting to simply buy as many torches as possible, turn out the lights whenever loot is attained, and turn them back up when loot is not being attained, but that would require even more torches and inventory space. The resolution of this might be either selectively choosing some points to "go dark" (specific curios or treasure chests or right before the end of hard battles), or leaving certain things and backtracking to get them after the level goal is completed.
This dynamic of less-reward-now-in-return-for-more-reward-if-I-manage-to-come-back-later adds more thought to what might otherwise be a straightforward "grab the stuff, it might be supplies, which is a short-term need to help the team last longer, or it might be loot which is a long-term need". This isn't a regular "hard mode", it's a sacrifice of short-term advantages for the potential of long-term gains, with the risk of medium-term losses (if characters die).
I think it's much more sophisticated and well-designed than you give it credit for (though it is unbalanced, as proven by the fact that you can retain most of those high-light advantages by certain strategies with few or no downsides).
I appreciate the very thoughtful post. From the way you explained it, it definitely can be considered well-designed from that point of view.
So as long as you're high level, highly familiar with the game, and know all the ins and outs, it's totally nothing to worry about.
Hey, got a question about torch mechanics - when you enter a battle tile, and your torchlight goes from one tier to the lower tier, does the encounter use the bonuses of the torchlight level that you had before entering the fight? Or after it goes down 1 tier?
For example, my torchlight level is 76, aka Radiant, then i move to the next tile which has a fight, and as i enter the battle, my torchlight drops to 70, and is now dim light. Did the surprise mechanic use radiant or dim light to calculate the odds? Etc
Also, does changing the torchlight level during combat have any effect? Like is there a point in dousing the torch right before killing the last enemy for more loot?
It should use the lower torch value as you enter the fight. Raising and lowering the torch in battle matters, and yes snuffing the torch before the fight ends does give you more loot
Ya know is kinda crappy when i need to use a mod (voivode darkspawn) just to make torchless a valuable strat
I understand your take! I like playing without torches, it's fun for me :) I don't snuff out the second I get a chance I just let it run down naturally.
I only go torchless cause I always spend too much on upgrading and then just like food n bandages
I only started playing like l three days ago and I’m doing torchless runs just to grind up money and heirlooms 😂 maybe it’s stupid but I’m doing okay with it so far
you mentioned around 5:45 that you would have liked to see monsters have torchless specific attacks and how that might be difficult to implement. But actually it is very easy and I believe some modders have already done things like that.
Darkest Dungeon is a game held up entirely by its aesthetics. (which are phenomenal, including the narration)
It isn't hard; it just requires patience a bit of experience (Curios, how to handle bosses). It's by no means a high-difficulty game, where you have to carefully plan your first steps in order to be viable later on, or where you have to practice muscle memory relentlessly to become good enough to move on.
Mechanically DD is a bloody mess that looks better than it actually plays. When you're doing it right, the game is a mindless grind for EXP and Gold. When you're not, it's an even longer slog of Gold/EXP grind with the addition of expensive Affliction management.
I love this breakdown
tbh I'm nearly certain that without Wayne June's narration, Bourrasa's artystyle or Chatwood's music absolute nobody would play the game. The combat is just kinda "kill dangerous enemy, stall off weak enemy and rinse and repeat", and all the small extra mechanics like quirks and afflictions are barely noticeable (quirks are just glorified stat buffs and afflictions are only a big deal if you uh actually get to 100 stress a lot which is kinda easy to avoid
Quiet spot on.
Teuth is, I dont think dimensionless turn based combat is simply capable of producing an engaging battle system. You either need at least a 2d map, or some element of twitch skill.
I've been working towards the platinum trophy for DD and your guides have helped immensely, ty
Hot take, the only thing you need to be qualified to talk about the game is play darkest, and get the majority of your units to be top level while doing max level dungeons a couple times.
Personally I dont think the final dungeon of the game should be in the same topic as the actual base game, and I dont think Crimson Court should come into discussion Either.
I feel Darkest Dungeon offers 4 major core experiences
-The base game
-Crimson Court
-The final Dungeon
-Torchless
I personally separate them because I feel each one is such a unique experience that they deserve their own conversation. As for why I separate the Final Dungeon from the base game, is for I feel it has a few wonky rpg mechanics that if you do it without any guides, without any warning, in your first few times, you're going to guarantee fuck it up from how different it is.
But I do believe you don't have much merit to talk about these categories if you haven't attempted them. But I believe attempting them is enough to qualify to have an opinion.
Torchless is "poorly balanced" because it's a self-imposed challenge. Playing through the entire game in a state that you're expected to avoid (or at least try to avoid) is inevitably going to feel unbalanced, because the developers weren't expecting you to do that and thus didn't design around it.
Sometimes, I get the impression that the community around some games (DD is _not_ the only example) overestimate the significance that their favorite challenge runs have for the developers. It would be similar to Pokemon fans claiming that some new feature ruined nuzlocke runs or people unironically complaining about unavoidable coins in a Mario game; it's not really the developer's job to make the game play well with an arbitrary challenge imposed on it.
I know I'm not the first person here to say this, but it's still worth making note of.
Technically nothing in this game is hard because in actuality, none of the game requires skill regardless of settings. Foresight and that's it. The game is dictated almost purely by RNG. Its RNG on top of RNG sandwiched between more RNG. The game can turn a normal situation into virtually impossible simply by arbitrarily denying you a healer in the starting weeks. Then you are forced by this system to cheese the game with dungeon dipping to circumvent such a horrible design.
Remember everyone! Gaming isn't a dick measuring contest against other people, its a place where people get happiness from a hobby they enjoy. If you were being an obnoxious prick to someone you don't know in a community basketball court you'd get banned pretty damn fast. So consider that analogy and be nice! :D
I got back into DD because I hadn’t beaten it a while back. I have the poor habit of playing for 52 weeks, leveling a full roster, losing one or two characters and rethinking my entire play style and restarting. I just still feel like I haven’t learned and gotten everything taped.. maybe I should restart and go again for a finish..
I've got the standard "Red Hook" party with stun skills and forgot to bring torches to the dungeon. The game gave "Night Owl" quirk to 3 characters and a mission with Dark Tambourine as a reward. XD