Timemore Sculptor Review: 064s or 078 COMPARISON
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- Опубліковано 28 чер 2024
- I received the review units from Timemore with some delay, so had to test and do recordings more hurriedly than usual.
I have already made a written review of the 064s as I wasn't certain there would be time for this video.
To avoid repetition, I've tried to focus on new information in this video. If you want a more traditional review, you can refer to this post:
coffeechronicler.com/timemore...
BURR SWAPPING UPDATE:
I watched a video from @ourcoffeeshelter where the process appeared quite straightforward. I assumed this would generally be the case, but there can be varying tolerances with both SSPs and the burr chamber of the 064s.
When filming the video I had only tried fitting two burrs: SSP MP REDSPEED & Mazzer 233M - none of them worked in the grinder. I have since tried some more burrs which do fit: SSP CAST(uncoated) and Ode V1 burrs.
SSP might have changed the diameter ever so slightly from 2022 and onwards and that can explain why others have an easier time fitting the burrs.
I made a short here where you can see the real world differences: • Timemore Sculptor 064s...
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0:00 Intro
0:45 UX Pros/Cons
6:12 Grinding in action
9:14 064s Taste
11:59: An issue
14:35 078 Taste
20:11 FAQ
Due to technical problems, I didn't record the audio for one of the most FAQ'ed and upvoted questions, and that is how the 078 compares to ZP6. If you're curious about my thoughts on that grinder, then check out my old video where I compare it to both hand grinders and flat burrs.
ua-cam.com/video/sOxbDnynrhg/v-deo.html
I think 078 and ZP6 share some similarities in the sense that they both work great for ultra-light roasts, but are not that suitable for more developed mild washed where some flavor blending and sweetness is ideal.
I do however think that ZP6 is a more "normal" grinder when it comes to showcasing acidity, so for that reason, I feel less ambivalent about it.
Can you give an example of a grinder/burr configuration that WOULD excel for these more developed mild washed coffees?
X pro, he sayd it in his review video of zp6, that x pro cam bring a little bit of pop from those 82-84 coffes. I kinda agree with him, but its not like zp6 is bad for those coffes, its just that you get more clarity and you just taste a lot of caramel or something. Also you can taste roast defects. I had them bouth, for me zp6 is better then x pro, you push extraction higher and its easier to play with, since you get good grind uniformity
@@HansProbs Kinu, 1zpresso JE, Jx K Max, X-Pro, Comandante are all hand grinders that work for these. But a burr like 64 Cast will also give you a fair and flattering representation.
Curious to hear more about your testing methodology and how you arrived at "high clarity and muted acidity." That's very interesting.
I did a series of blind cuppings with about 10 different coffees over 2 months with 6 experienced cuppers against about 6 different grinders.
Quite shocked to hear this, but excited to hear how you arrived there!
Good video. Cheers
Hey Lance! My testing is in 3 stages: Normal everyday use, followed by cupping, and finally side-by-side brewing and triangulations. The brewed cups are tasted blind and pushed to the same EY. I think one reason that could explain the differences in our results is that I also include lower-scoring coffees and more traditional roasts in my testing. Also, there can be some fundamental differences in our preferences. In my testing of the ZP6, I did prefer the results of MP and Cast consistently in blind triangulations (also with light roasts), whereas it seems you hold ZP6 in the same high regard as 078.
@The Coffee Chronicler I also test low scoring coffees, down to 82 points and darker. I will say I think pushing to same EY isn't very helpful. They each need to be dialed in to their best. How blind triangulations were you able to get to? I'm curious because I know you didn't have these long. And do you do multiple cups of each? I always do 2-3 cups of each grinder in the same tasting.
Anyway, just curious because your results are very much antithetical to mine, Denis Sabou (small roaster and enthusiast in Norway who has had his since November), and Aramse. I see prima said something similar, but they matched only grind size in their testing, which isn't a fair test.
Some grinders are better at EY A, and others at EY B. Forcing them all to one standard isn't doing justice to them all.
I always do a few tests matching EY at different levels as well as grind size at different sizes, but spend most of my time doing each to their individual best based on the preferences of those with whom I'm cupping or my own if alone.
Anyway, thanks for not taking offense at my question! Not sure why someone thought I wad mocking. I've been following your stuff since I began on yt. Nothing but respect. (And I guess different methodological approaches ha!)
@@coffeechronicler I was also very curious about your connection to ghost burrs. I do not like ghost burrs and own both Fuji and Xeoleo. They were very, very different. Did you A/B ghosts vs the turbo? Or was that just speculation on past experience? Thanks for the back and forth! Hopefully it'll help viewers to see this exchange!
@@LanceHedrick Could it be, that you used the fines collector and disposed the fines and chaff and Asser used all of the grinds - and that could account for a difference?
@@jjevans1511 no- tested both ways.
Your opinion is quite interesting and refreshing. I watched every other review of these grinders and none had this angle to them. Thanks.
Clear break down (as always) ! And for the aesthetics very good points ! Wish you had the 078s too..Excellent review! Thank you!
Fantastic video. Thanks for your inputs. I do not possess an espresso grinder. So I have backed the project. I think I will be pretty happy when it arrives!
Your video helped me decide to choose 064s over 078. Thank you!
I really appreciate that you took the time to answer my question👍 What you said about learning to dial in on the Opus before upgrading makes sense. I guess I was getting caught up in the hype and started thinking that a sweet new grinder would make my coffee amazing. Instead, I will take your advice and work on my coffee skills with what I’ve got. Please keep putting out great content. Cheers!
I also made the mistake of upgrading when it wasn't necessary. I sold my 1Zpresso JX and upgraded to the K-max. While the K-max is definitely a better grinder I realized, after lots of practice and experimentation, that the other controllable variables in brew technique can easily make more of a difference than a relatively small grinder upgrade. In other words, with a "capable" grinder (like my original JX), by varying the brew technique I could easily have gotten brews that were as good (or better) than my K-max. Now, I am even thinking twice before upgrading from my Gen 1 Ode to the Gen 2 . I'm discovering that, brews that I dismissed from the Gen 1 Ode, can also be brought up to a high standard by varying the brew technique. In fact I may not even bother to upgrade the burrs from version 1.1 to version 2.
@@nternalPracticeThank you for sharing your experiences. Just curious, what did you find most moved the needle for you in improving your brews?
@@rhyanherkel142 I would say that the correct brew method and grind setting are the two biggest factors but, realize that, they are largely dependent on the variety and roast of the coffee (and there is no one size fits all solution). Let me give you the two examples that really opened my eyes. I mostly use two polar opposite pour-over V60 brew methods. One method is from James Hoffman who advocates (after blooming) pouring 60% of the water in the first 30 seconds and the remaining 40% in the next 30 seconds. The other is the Tetsu Kasuya 4:6 method. They both have advantages and disadvantages (which I won't go into) but, suffice to say that Hoffman's method excels for my favourite Ethiopian natural and, for a Sumatra that I'm currently enjoying, the 4:6 method is best. I'll use the Sumatra to make my point...
Using Hoffman's method I can only get an adequate cup (of Sumatra) from my K-max but I can't even achieve "adequate" with my Gen 1 Fellow Ode (regardless of grind setting). On other hand, I can get a MUCH better cup (of Sumatra) using the 4:6 method from EITHER the K-max or the Gen1 Ode . In fact , using the 4:6 method and the correct grind, I now get the arguably best cup from the Ode (in comparison to the K-max). This is ironic since, using Hoffman's method (which works well for other beans), I can't get a decent cup of Sumatra from the Ode at all. In short, if I use the right brew method (and grind) for the bean, the grinder that I use is virtually irrelevant (as long as it's reasonably capable). Knowing what I know now, I am fairly convinced that I could equal anything I now produce with my K-max or Ode using only a JX (which is a highly capable and ridiculously affordable grinder). Beyond a certain point a more expensive, and theoretically "better", grinder gives you something DIFFERENT but, not necessarily better. (possibly because grinders are more of an art than a science).
P.s. Personally I had to use a number of brew methods for a long time (more than a year) before it finally sank as to what they were doing and how they differed. Once you get a sense of those factors it's easier to sort out but, just changing grinders isn't the answer. Just a guess but, I think that the 4:6 method works so well for the Sumatra because the roast that I buy seems to be very prone to channeling and the 4:6 method seems to effectively reduce that problem (by giving the coffee multiple opportunities to off-gas).
Thank you for replying to the questions at the end. I was wondering the same thing about the ode gen 2
Fantastic video as always, Asser! I'll admit I've been feeling a little uneasy recently with my 078s pledge after watching Lance's video. It made me wonder if getting the 078 instead, selling my Ode Gen 2 and looking for another espresso-only grinder would be the wiser choice. But the way you articulated your thoughts and gave genuine insight has been incredibly helpful and made me realise I made the right choice from the beginning. Also doesn't hurt that I've been using your Switch recipe for a while now and have been loving it so I feel our taste preferences align fairly well.
Very interesting observation about the 078, but not all that surprising given the similarity of the burr geometry to ghost burrs. Nice review!
Your breakdown of the 078 flavors really dispelled the FOMO about that grinder for me. I wish Timemore had sent you some 078s burrs, because you're excellent at breaking down the flavor nuances! Thanks for the video, excellent stuff.
Thanks, good to hear it made sense for somebody, I wasn't entirely sure how it came across :)
I thought the same thing, it is great to hear the opinion from someone with a different palate from Lance. This explains to me why he is so negative on the niche zero reviews when comparing to other youtubers, and maybe a lot of people will be disappointed when they receive their 078. I think I will be sticking to my 078s pledge now!
Came here to say this, video should be titled “Fomo killer.” Thank you! Subbing!
Great review, really like your way of describing the lack of flavour separation with the 78 burrs akin to a "stewed apple" vs the different taste as you bite through the skin 😂👍
Thanks for video! Makes me more interested to try 078.
really appreciate a more grounded review, your thoughts along with others I have read definitely brought some reality to the hype around this grinder.
Thanks for including specialita into the comparison. Was eyeing 078s but now waiting for mx cool Aries.
Thanks for the video just on time
Always appreciate the great down to earth content and reviews! That 64s seems like great value, especially at $300.
How was your experience dialing in for espresso? Other reviewers mentioned a very tight window to get good cups.
Much appreciated! Just in time.
Great information once again. Always find your reviews helpful. I was curious if you have thoughts on the new Moccamaster KM5 grinder and how it might compare to the Timemore or Fellow Ode 2 in that mid level price range. Thanks again.
I believe a lot of the DF / Turin grinders now come with a metal catch cup, it may depend on where you get it from though, it's nice to have ones that actually fit the portafilter forks (if you have grinders with those!). With the Niche Zero (very nice stainless steel) dosing cup I always ended up with coffee on one side tilted/leaning when I removed the cup and I only knew after I removed the cup. With the Plastic DF64 ones you can see through so that's an advantage, although I discovered sometimes (with some grinders) it does make static a lot worse grinding into those!
I am only buying the 064s as a high quality burr housing for the SSPs burrs. I am very concerned, as yours was the first review that gave any doubt to this option...😵💫
Thanks, this review was very interesting and well spoken. Mange tak for dette!
I have launch day pledges for both 064s and 078s. Will sell off one of them. As it's my first ever proper grinder I can't see myself disappointed especially at launch day price. 😊
I bought the 078 and was really excited about it. Then, I started brewing coffee with it, and you were right. It tends to mute many of the coffee's characteristics, such as acidity and flavor separation. Don't get me wrong; it's not a bad grinder. It actually produces a sweeter and juicier cup of coffee, but I was expecting more. This is the only video I've found where someone shares my sentiments. Perhaps I should consider purchasing an Ode Gen 2 with SSP MP burrs and use this grinder occasionally. What do you think? And as always, thanks for the nice content and video
In the same camp. Not as impressed as many online made it out to be. I can see where its a “juicier” cup, but the acidity isnt as pleasant as I was hoping. The 078 is an enigma for sure. Lots of polarizing opinions.
Great video! Thank you!
And I thought I'm wierd when I prefer Q2 heptagonal to SSP MP. You hit the nail on the head with those "extremes". Going to cancel 078, thank you!
Very good review, I really enjoyed your approach. Sad you didnt get an 078s in time for review.
I originally had the 064s at the lowest pricing, but I found a Vario+ with the steel burrs for the same price. I was planning on running them both, but decided today to cancel my pledge because it seems a tad redundant to have both and I can just swap in the ceramic burrs or maybe even Mahlkonig X54 burrs for a more classic espresso profile
I like that you use the term soundstage which completely define taste quite well. My take on the 78 is, if your source is not "high end" the output probably will be average or bad. Similar to high-end audio equipment. Most equipment can play well with most source but some just prefer "audiophile" source which means it cant be use with most music out there.
Thank you for the excellent review! Based on your experience, how would you suspect the larger 078s flavor profile might differ from the 064s? Not looking for a definitive answer, maybe just one based on how other burr sets change as they scale up in size. If you don’t feel comfortable hazarding a guess that’s fine - thanks again for the well constructed review!
Thanks for this review. Good to see someone reviewing it from a normal home use perspective. Other content creators make us believe we all need the 078 / 078s, which is not the case for most people. 064s is plenty for the majority of home coffee/espresso hobbyists.
078 is good, but more targeting high end users and cafés.
I think its good Timemore is giving us the option to choose between these two, but I feel the hype for the 078 is giving a false impression that this is the best pick for most people. Most of us would not tell a big difference in taste.
On the 64S, any notes on retention when switching from espresso to pour over? I have a DF64 with SSP that hangs on to 0.5g of espresso grinds that come out in my pour over grinds...and it totally screws the flavor clarity
Backed the Kickstarter early due to the hype generated by Lance, your take on the 078 seems different from his. Considering my options, might wait and pay full price after hearing more opinions. Thank you for your review.
Remember- not just my opinion. Always surrounded by 2-6 different experienced cuppers. But yeah! Weigh all opinions.
@@LanceHedrick Hi Lance my burrman, didn't expect to see you here! Quick question: if I already have a P64 with SSP MP in it for brew and modern-style espresso. Was thinking about getting a pair of SSP cast but that really complicates the purpose of my P64.
Should I just go for the 078S for a relatively more traditional espresso, mid-dark dark brew, ice coffee, and all milk drinks?
Thanks!
Have an 83mm italmill grind-on-demand and am downsizing to 064s. Think the workflow will be a big improvement, just hope the taste will not suffer too much... Then again, I grind my filter on a OG Timemore Slim, so I think I'll see some improvement on that front in both cup quality and speed :D classic case of you win some you lose some...?
I ordered the 078. I like medium+ roast coffee for my pour overs. What would you recommend for a great first real grinder?
I gave up on the run for the finish line (like the gold pot at the end of the rainbow) - placed an order for the DF64V and plan to run it with SSP cast and see if slow speed will be good for drip and higher speed for espresso. Or just use the hand grinder for one of the two. - Great review anyway and for sure I will start to consider grinder number 2.. 🙂
You should do a comparison with one of those cheap ghost burr grinders and the 078 :D
No 078s to compare I guess? I think that seems like a more well rounded / multi-purpose option, should be nicer and higher clarity than the 064s, while not being as polarizing as the the 078.
I'm really interested in the Kalita Wave Tsubame, since i watched your video about your best drippers of 2023. Would it be possible to make a video with this dripper more in depth?
Thanks for the great videos, i'm really enjoying your Hario Switch recipe.
his has been very informative regarding the 078. One thing I've noticed. Light roasts that rest for 30 days plus often have a very round blended profile, which I find very desirable. It may not have the final word in clarity, but the overall presentation of the coffee tends to be very desirable, with the mid-bass and mid-range (where my audiophiles at?!) flavors really shining through. Would you say this is how you'd describe the 078?
Unfortunately many light roasts struggle to produce the desired taste that they advertise, I wonder if the 078 would be a good all-rounder for that reason
Ha, I should have watched through to the end, you made an audio reference to explain lolol
I agree with the resting. 078 can showcase imbalance. I tried some light Yirgacheffe I roasted 3 days ago on it, and it tasted roasty and acrid, so But yeah, in generally it mellows it out.
always enjoy your reviews...question: for a strictly pour over person who stays in light to med (maybe med -dark) roasts, what is your favourite electric grinder?...i have the zp6 and would like to upgrade to an electric that offers a big step in an overall well balanced cup, but without breaking the bank (lagom p64..i'm in canada so we already pay 30% more due to the US/Cdn dollar difference)....a few suggestions are kindly welcomed.
I just got ordered a zp6. Can you share your experience with your pourovers with Zp6 and why you are thinking of the need to upgrade?
@@Tamimzzz hi there..pourovers and the zp6 arei still new to me ..just getting used to it..have had it 2 mo now...but as i noted an electric is more convenient at times....still undecided to keep zp6 or sell it to finance a 78.
I loved the review! I was wondering, you've discussed the Wilfa Uniform in the past, if you still have it, how would you say the 064s compares to the Wilfa Uniform with stock burrs?
It's been a while since I used it with stock burrs, but just based on sensory memory (which is unreliable) I'd say 064s is as good or better for filter.
@@coffeechronicler Oh wow thank you! I have the Wilfa but I'm debating getting the 064 turbos (at the launch special price) or picking up the SSPs for the Wilfa. Do you mind me asking how you found the process of aligning the SSPs in the Wilfa?
@@coffeechronicler I'm currently debating between upgrading the burrs for my Wilfa Uniform or buying the Timemore 078. I only drink pour overs or clever dripper. Would you say that the coffee from Timemore 078 would be much better than Wilfa Uniform with SSP burrs? To upgrade the burrrs would cost £150 and to upgrade the grinder £480 after selling the Wilfa. I don't mind the quite large cost difference as long as that reflects in the quality of the coffee. Thank you.
The thing that really stood out to me was the actual sound of it grinding. I feel like a lot of reviews had the mics either up close or super hot so the 064s sounded awful. This makes it a lot more reasonable sounding and almost quiet???
For espresso mainly, would you recommend the 64s, or something like the new varia vs3 with a hypernova bur?
Haven't tried the Varia, but my guess is that it 64s would be better all around.
Super interesting about the 078 not offering the acidity! I don't think other reviewers have mentioned that. I currently have the gen1 version of the Ode with SSP MP, and I am mostly happy with the cups. I've paired it with your Switch recipe! With the Ode and SSP I do get flavors that are too acrid sometimes. I do brew a lot of naturals and acidic coffees like Kenya, Ethiopia, etc. I'm wondering what the 078, which I did back, will do to those flavors. Is the 078 a big enough upgrade over the gen1 Ode with SSP??
Prima Coffee released a review recently opining that the 078 presents fairly low acidity and fairly low clarity - the reviewer noted that he finds other ghost burr grinders lacking in acidity.
Aramse mentioned the muted acidity, good review
No he doesn't mention that
Do you think 064s/078s is a good choice for espresso use only. I prefer light roast coffee from the roasters yoi mentioned. My plan is to keep using wilfa uniform for filter, however I would like to upgrade from my C40 I use for espresso to an electric grinder.
Yeah, I think they would be solid for that. Based on memory (not side-by-side comparison) even 064s is better for brew than Uniform, so you might be able to downsize a bit.
Thank you for a fast reply. If I can also replace the Uniform with 064s or 078s than this is a no-brainer for me.
@@coffeechronicler one more follow up question😅
Do you consider 064s or 078s as the best option for an espresso electric grinder in their price range or would you recommend any other grinder?
This answer a lot of people questions. Sub you now. Great vdo.
More of an aesthetic point, but is the white paint well clear coated. I like the cleanness of the colour but if it is going to get discoloured over time, that could be a real deal breaker
Is it worth it backing the 064s now and cancel my order for the 078s at intro KS price?
What water composition are you using? Is it the same for the SSP MP and the Sculptor? With regards to the lack of acidity, did you try lowering your buffer?
Brewing at 30 TDS, so that's a very low buffer. The other grinders performed as per usual.
@@coffeechronicler Sweet. Thank you!
The 078 is probably the first not-megabucks electric grinder that I seriously enjoy. I've also tried a Fellow Ode with SSP MP burrs and enjoyed that as well but I think I generally prefer the 078 still.
Have you gotten to play/test RPM? What RPM were you on during the testing/review of the 078!
Hi Marc, always good to hear from you! Initially, I tested the grinder at lower RPM's. I have since upped speed to the max and brewed at tighter ratios like 1:15 and find I get more complexity out of the cups. With some beans, it can be pretty extraordinary. But with the majority, I still prefer more classic representations, especially from SSP Cast (both 64/83 mm).
I am confused. On the one hand you're saying g the 078 is good for those who like very light coffees, and yet you are saying it mutes the acidity. Don't we want vibrant acidity coming through in the cup for a lighter coffe?
How does the SSP Cast compare to the stock 064s for espresso?
How do you think the 064s performs for darker roasts compared with say a niche zero (or niche duo)? And Any guess if the same would be true for the 078s?
Very well. For dark roasts it's excellent.
@@coffeechronicler thanks for that response. Have you had a chance to try the niche duo yet?
Which of their 4 new models would do good as a multipurpose grinder? I know it isn’t ideal to have one for it all, or at least I have been told. I’m making medium-dark roasted coffee only and mostly pour over with the occasional espresso.
Think you will be very happy with 064s
@@coffeechronicler Tak for svar ;) Btw, do you think it's worth the wait to buy the 064s? I didn't make the kickstarter unfortunately. I really need an upgrade from my old Graef CM 80. The 064s just seems like one of the better flat burrs multipurpose options out there right now, and also with the availability to purchase it within EU (in near future, hopefully).
kind of gets me anxious that it's possible my ssp LS wouldn't fit on 064. Well, I got it on earlybird price, so I'll sell it cheap secondhand in that case after trying tubo 064 burrs 😂
I really hope they fit. If it does I can't see any reason not to pick this over the Ode.
Feel like I'd be too irked with those hoppers and would rather hold out for the 2.0 with revised hoppers. Feels similar to the Ode 1 vs Ode 2 whereby he Ode 2 solved almost the bulk of the O1 issues.
If you were most concerned with getting good filter results for light and medium-light brews, based on your comments, would you go for the 078 or 078s (based, I suppose, on the 064s burrs)? It sounds like the 078 really shines in some ways, but also might be limiting overall. Are those limits significant enough to suggest going towards the more straightforward s-profile burrs?
Really hard question. Based on what others have been saying about 078s I think that's the one you should go for unless you already have experience with big flats. But just guesswork on my part.
I dropped my 078s pledge. I want a strong emphasis on getting the most out of my light roasts and neither of these grinders seemed to fit the bill. The 064s would have been cool with better build quality and motor and a guarantee to fit SSP burrs in. But with none of that I lost interest. Just put in a preorder for a DF64V. I hear the stock burrs resemble the SSP MP. If it’s not to my liking, I can always put in SSPs
Is the logo going to stay like that on the 64?
It wasn’t like this before, makes it look cheap
I think it will. When you have it on your kitchen counter with the dial facing forward, it feels quite subtle.
What do you think about timemores move with the last minute "oh thanks for the attention and traction, but we might not ship to your country cause it's so expensive even after we stated we would ship worldwide lol"
Cause I'm furious. They even canceled my scale I had as an option cause they only ship it to Germany in the EU.
@@mikeontwitie get the new basic model. Same price but better functionality.
Didn't hear about that yet. If correct, I would consider it a new low, even for a Kickstarter.
They sent an email about it today.
@@coffeechroniclerYep, they are only releasing a list of which countries are eligible for shipping after the campaign closes and everyone's credit card gets charged...
Excellent review Asser, especially for us regular coffee hobbyists. Perhaps a few, popular coffee professionals did more comprehensive testing and arrived at different conclusions. That's cool. Piling on because your results did not agree with theirs is not cool.
Cheers.
If your Timemore product malfunctions in the first year don't expect to get any kind of warrantee support from the company. When my Blackmirror Basic Plus scale became completely unusable after only 4 months the company completely ignored my emails about the issue. It's now a useless piece of junk sitting unused in a drawer.