Toyota's EV Strategy Is Still... Interesting
Вставка
- Опубліковано 29 вер 2024
- Episode 426: Jordan recaps his time at Toyota headquarters learning about what there is and isn't to know about Toyotas electric vehicle strategy. From EV plans to EV reality, Jordan discusses with Francie everything he gathered from the event, Toyota's general auto plans, and the lack of EV innovation.
Shoutout to our sponsors for more information find their links below:
- Fort Collins Kia: Visit focokia.com for full details. Disclaimer: *Delivery covers up to $1,000.
Find us on all of these places:
UA-cam: / outofspecpodcast
Apple Podcasts: podcasts.apple...
Spotify: open.spotify.c...
Amazon: music.amazon.c...
For further inquiries please email podcast@outofspecstudios.com
![[UA] Eternal Fire проти NAVI | EPL Season 20 Malta](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/chvlsDygrZM/mqdefault.jpg)
It's nice to know that Toyota is still just as clueless today as a few years ago. I talked to a few Toyota engineers at a DC charger about 2 years ago near Plano, TX. They asked me a few questions it seemed like all they cared about was the cost of charging and idling fees. I told them I don't really think about it because at the time it cost me a lot less then gas. They didn't ask me any questions that I thought where important such as why I drove eclectic, do I like my car, what would I change about my car, or what needs to be changed about the charging network. Basically they didn't really ask anything that truly mattered.
That would be because Toyota have come to the conclusion that they already know everything that is important, so they don't need to ask anyone anything. They do, however, need to show us all why we are wrong about BEVs and Hydrogen.
When Toyota is going to decide to go full EV watch out, they will do it right 😊😊❤❤
Great podcast episode Francie and Jordan
Great discussion Francie and Jordan! Toyota’s EV strategy isn’t a mystery but rather simple. You have all the pieces, just need help putting them together.
I am a bz4X owner. I was never interested in one until the crazy good lease deals came up. It meets my needs and I'm happy with it because I don't need to road trip with it. The real question is, how did Toyota just completely miss so badly with the EV features? I can understand the low range and poor charging to a conservative approach to battery management or cost saving measures. But there are simple low cost EV things that they just missed on that any EV conscious person designing an EV would know. When they released it, it did not show Charge % or estimated vehicle range while charging. How could you release an EV that doesn't show battery % while charging? No route planning, no battery pre-conditioning, no indication on the outside of the car of charging progress. Some of these are small simple things that would be considered must haves to anyone who knew anything at all about EVs. Either they purposely omitted these things or just didn't care. I would love to know the story. I think it is simply that they had no intention of really trying to make the bz4x a car that sold well.
Thanks, Francie and Jordan for the very informative podcast.❤
Jordan, I'm leasing a 2024 bz4x awd xle. I got hooked by the really low lease price, and the advertised promise of improvements over the 2023 issues. The fastest charging speed I've seen is 104 kW, and thwas down at 10% battery. I took a 450 mile one way road trip... painful! I wouldn't recommend it!
I was a huge Toyota fan. Over the years we have had 2 Corollas, 3 4-Runners, a Prius (non-plugin) and a Sequoia. I didn't expect to ever own a non-Toyota. But as I got more into the EV space, they had nothing for me. After the Prius, I got a Volt, then a gen 2 Volt, and I currently drive a Bolt. We just traded in the Sequoia, our tow and recreation vehicle, for a Silverado EV RST. I am still surprised to have become a Chevy fan. I don't think Toyota can win me back at this point. I am disappointed in their choices.
Tesla is the best car company ever! No maintenance, No gas stations, No oil changes, No smog check, No corrupt dealerships, 87% brand retention, Toyota is 50% and faster than a $650,000 Lamborghini
Good Chemistry, guys. Keep up the excellent work. Just try to buy a Toyota Prius Prime in the Midwest. It seems that Toyota won't make a good EV and aren't making many of their plug-ins. Yet, they have many Tundras sitting on lots all over the country.
BYD is the only SERIOUS Chinese Brand
FutureAZA
59.8
Toyota should have let them do everything on the bZ4x instead of co-development, it would have been better.
Toyota's strategy, as has been detailed many times, is hydrogen. They don't want to invest much into BEV when that's not their goal. The BZ4X is a half-assed, "yeah we did it" nod to the EPA because it isn't in their strategy.
But BYD...
More funny like a clown than funny like clever
Such a. Shame. The early/mid 90s was Toyota at its best.
The longer Toyota desperately clings on to the planet-cooking fossil fuel past, the worse their future prospects - especially brand reputation. Kodak on wheels?
PS good reporting, Jordan. Fair and frank assessment.
Toyota is trying to avoid the Osbourne effect - they don't want to make a BEV that is more compelling than their hybrids.
Kodak, Nokia, Blackberry…. Toyota
And they certainly are very successful in not making a compelling EV!!!
@@twostate7822 No they made the RAV4 EV. The got sued by Chevron, who bought up the EV-1 NiMH battery patents, for their trouble.
@@jamesphillips2285 I don't really remember an EV RAV 4, but probably because it was discontinued in 2014 and sold in the hundreds according to sources. Reading the specs, is had a range of 103 miles, and 0-60 in 8.6 seconds. 103 miles for an EV is not close to compelling for me as that's basically an in city drive the kids to school, a short daily work commute, or running errands type of range. This was also back in the early 2010's when charging stations were hard to find. And the 8.6 time for 0-60 is nothing to brag about.
Sure, things were just starting out for EV's in 2014, but that Toyota wouldn't have moved the needle for me.
@@twostate7822 It was introduced in 1997!
It beat the Nissan Leaf to market (with only slightly more range) by 10 years!
I believe that the patent lawsuit is why Tesla went with the liquid cooled pack with hundreds of commodity 18650 cells, commonly used in laptops at the time.
Thank You for All that you are doing for our Planet Earth.....
Peace.. Shalom.. Salam.. Namaste .. 🙏🏻 😊 ✌ ☮ ❤ 🕊
I used to be a Toyota guy. I would buy a Toyota any time I had the opportunity. Then they pulled all this stupid shyte for years, and now I am a Tesla guy, driving a Model Y LR, and planning to stay a Tesla guy. Tesla isn't perfect but they sure do a lot of things better than the competition, and holy cow is my MYLR fun to drive!
The bz4x is bait & switch. It gets the buyer into the showroom so salesperson can switch you to their more profitable hybrid. When the BEV has lousy specs, switching to a hybrid is a no-brainer.
I follow EV development really closely and can tell you all about Tesla’s, Rivian’s, Ford’s, even VW’s and GM’s strategies, but for the life of me I can’t remember anything about Toyota’s strategy other than to try and ignore EVs entirely, lobby governments to roll back emissions standards and EV adoption rates, indoctrinate Japanese school children about the negative effects of EVs, up talk their investments in solid state batteries and hydrogen tech. I watched a video (documentary) about how Japan was afraid to go all in on EVs because that would make them dependent on China (enemy?) for batteries, so they have tried every other “door” in order to avoid that route. The result could mean the collapse of the entire Japanese auto industry as the transition to EVs is real and even though the media paints it differently, is happening far faster than most have expected. None of the legacy auto makers are prepared for this and are all facing the same disruption. Some of them might manage to keep alive with a few models, but economics will make even that extremely difficult. So, what is Toyota’s strategy for dealing with that?
I’m in Scotland (the top bit of the UK not the town in Maryland USA) and here in the central belt I see lots and lots of BZ4X and Solterras on the roads despite all the negative media reports about the cars. The only comments I’ve heard from actual owners is the continuous gongs and warnings they seem to suffer. Charging doesn’t seem to be a problem as these owners mostly charge at home and aren’t stressing the battery with lots of DCFC - also they aren’t doing multiple fast charges in a day when on a road trip here (and here you cannot do the vast distances that you seem to want to do all the time in the US ) - the average daily miles here in the UK is 30-35 miles a day!
One thing in their favour here is the pretty low cost to personal lease them!
Actually the average mileage in the US is around 14K miles, so around 38 miles/day. Sure, there are outliers than may drive 100+ miles a day.
If majority of customers only wanted BEVs, that would be the only thing that Toyota would be manufacturing. The reality is that 40-50% of new car sales for Toyota and Honda are now Hybrids. Demand is so strong, they cannot keep up with production of their hybrid models, which is why hybrid inventory is low and so many customers are forced to wait for months. It's not about right or wrong, automakers have no choice but to follow consumer trends and preferences. Which is also why you see GM, Ford, VW, etc pulling back from BEV production.
It’s sad that Toyota has not been more involved in BEV’s. I have owned a plug in hybrid since 2019 and got tired of the battle between the electric motor and the gas motor so we still have the plug in but for our new car we went full electric with an EV6 and could not be happier even with road trips. Long road trips will only get better with the buildup of EV charging stations. Cheers
From the beginning Toyota stated that they wouldn’t be fully in on BEV’S until they had perfected their solid state battery. Their forecast was for 2027 or 2028. Before that they would have BEV’S of a limited nature coming online in about 2025. Meanwhile they were to continue with expansion of their hybrid and PHEV offerings.
Which is exactly how it is going.
This show was a complete waste of time with this guy whining about the BZ4X and its limitations and how he just can’t understand Toyota’s reasoning. Meanwhile, ALL the manufacturers are dialing back their BEV and battery manufacturing plans as the mainstream auto buying public aren’t racing to go electric.
I own a PHEV (RAV4 Prime) plus a couple ICE cars, and am saving for my first BEV; which I’m expecting to have a much longer range and quicker charge times.
I can afford to wait for the technology to catch up to my expectations.
Toyota makes great vehicles but the bz4 is just a substandard EV that they should be embarrassed at making. It's barely above a bolts spec which is a joke for 2024 and will not result in a good owner experience.
Plus they are working against Evs behind the scenes...
Genuinely, if they made a good EV based overall on the work they've done for the 5th gen Prius, I'd buy it in a heartbeat. Instead I'm likely to become a used Model 3 customer and grumble about the loss of my hatched back, but not much else, other than having a "T" logo I much less prefer on my new vehicle.
Toyota has never been an innovator. People point to hybrids, but hybrid technology has been around all way back to the Electrovair in the ‘60’s. Toyota will only use technology that is mature enough for mass production. Toyota will let other companies spend R&D and wait what features are popular with consumers. EV technology hasn’t fully matured yet with less than 1% penetration in global vehicle ownership. EV technology is still evolving. There are still problems with cold weather performance as well as improving charge times.
Nissan in the Uk used to offer use of an internal combustion car for 14 days per year when you bought/leased a EV. That was over 6 years ago. Unsure if they do that now considering the charging network has expanded. Never had to use the offer in my ownership. Easily plan trips with charging stops.
Its Toyota MOTOR corporation for a reason. They built a legacy on engines, are highly profitable doing that, and are very risk adverse. Its obvious their EVs are compliance cars and are activly trying to make them look bad to steer buyers towards hybrids.
Hydrogen fiasco arguably for Toyota yeah they should give 12 year 150k mile battery/drivetrain warranty at a minimum to inspire ev confidence🤯
Most of the legacy automakers make compromised EVs with high price tags. Then, they turn around and say no one wants EVs.
People want good EVs with reasonable price tags.
If Toyota was serous about Hydrogen. They would of already started to build out a Hydrogen fueling network. Just like Tesla did with their Supercharging network.
Toyota doesn't do half baked engineering of vehicles. Powering a vehicle with only batteries causes many problems which no automaker can resolve yet.
I think Toyota realizes the goalposts have moved from people being resistant to hybrids to people being resistant to EVs. They’ll milk their hybrids as long as they don’t have to pay significant emissions penalties.
The attitude of the Japanese car makers is odd. For years their market share grew because they thought in the long term while disparaging US automakers for their short term thinking. Now when it comes to EVs, that narrative seems to have flipped.
If the ev transition continues like it looks like it will, the country of Japan is in big trouble. It’s not just Toyota, as you said, it’s all of the Japanese car companies.
Toyota has 10 years to have multiple ev's or they won't be able to sell cars in California starting in 2035.
Kind of sounds like the Leaf (implying the battery is passively cooled).
Very interesting Podcast on Toyota! It is actually, like you said, an awesome idea to have a Podcast with an expert or some experts to discuss the carbon footprint of different cars (ICE, Hybrid, Battery, Hydrogen) including their production footprint and their life span footprint. I would love to see this here on your show! There is always this argument floating around on when to change/transition to a different/new car. You might say, yes if you are out on the market for a new car now, buy the most efficient battery electric car. But what about a used car? Does it make sense to buy a used ICE car or Hybrid car? I personally believe to really minimise our carbon footprint, slowing down the life cycles of products (from collecting the materials, building the product, using the product, repairing the product, using the product to finally recycling it's materials and start the cycle again), by repairing them and running them as long as possible has a positive impact. Not something car manufacturers like to hear due to their current business models. For me it doesn't make sense to buy the newest and latest and most efficient battery electric car each year just because you think you would have a better footprint by constantly replacing/updating "outdated" cars. As you said, battery electric cars are having a bigger production footprint than most ICE cars and only become more "carbon friendly", if you run them longer, because ICE cars increase there footprint faster during there time you are using it. It would be also very awesome to get someone with inside knowledge of the current processes and structures of recycling battery electric cars. That I think is a part of the life cycle, which needs to be looked at and discussed more as well. There might be car manufacturers which are already good at looking at this side of the cycle as well, but there are other battery auto makers which don't seam to have this fully adopted into their strategy. So, I think that would be a great discussion for your Podcast to have, one day. Keep up your great work!
Using a rental for road trips makes sense. It can ruin your vacation when your car breaks down or gets into an accident hundreds of miles from home. With a rental, just get a new one and you are on your way. With your own car you will have to work out how to pick it up in a few weeks when it repaired.
Toyota needs to fire their chief engineer who often states he is against EV in favor of fuel cell. We have left Toyota. We want a electrified Highland and Sienne. Come on, already!
The answer is $$$. Toyota has billions invested in Hybrids . Why would they make a EV that threatens their investment ?
Interesting discussion. Thanks
They make shit EV's because want people to think EVs are shit. Simple.
Toyota has no EV strategy. The one model they have had to be "co-developed" by BYD because Toyota didn't have anything ready. They still don't.
Toyota own some of Subaru and Mazda and Mr. Toyota control the auto association in Japan
Toyota hahahaha
In my view Toyota is Evil.
I think posterity will tell Toyota that hydrids weren’t the future.
Great job Francie.
Toyota is just not a company for the future.
The name Toyoda will go down in history similar to Vanderbilt in regards to leading then missing a transition to future technologies.
the decline and fall of Toyota is starting
Moved from my 2009 Prius to the model Y. Priuses of that generation have terrible oil burning in the engine… changed it religiously every 3,000 miles and only got 180,000 miles. We also had a broken infotainment screen since 2015 which meant no easy A/C control. I loved our gas mileage, but burning 4 quarts (roughly) in less than 1,000 miles isn’t fixable and quite expensive. Our second car is a 2015 leaf… so this new Model Y is a dream. Is Toyota using LFP tech in their plug in hybrids for all the overcharging?
Toyota’s most important part toward an EV future was selling the NUMMI Fremont factory to Tesla back around 2010 ALONG with investing in Tesla and agreeing to do the RAV4 EV joint venture. Without the Fremont factory, along with Toyota’s investment, would we be were we are now?
There’s a great UA-cam video with Elon, Arnold and the Chairman announcing all three at a press conference.
Toyota did none of this for the benefit of Tesla, even though it had the unintended consequence of helping Tesla. Toyota sold their stock holdings at a, seeming great, 3x, only to see Tesla go about another 100x. Same with Mercedes Benz.
Toyota Conglomerate owns lots of oil interests. We not going to shoot ourselves in the foot are we? Also, what is the EV charging situation in Japan?
This is exactly the situation and Toyota leads other car manufacturers in Japan. They could build EVs and burn oil to make electricity and at least be heading in the right direction to make a flexible fuel vehicle.
Class Leading VS Class Failing lol
Toyota talk baba
Toyota is stuck in the past
Like coming out with the El Camino and then saying the demand isn't there for trucks
More like the Chevy SSR.
You can argue about whether or not Toyota has the right strategy, but it is clear that they are not interested in making EV’s right now. The BZ4X is probably fine for a select group of buyers at the right price but it’s not a competitive EV. The big question is whether or not Toyota will be able to make a competitive EV when they decide they really need to. I have a RAV4 Prime and it’s a fantastic plug in hybrid. But if Toyota really believes in plug in hybrids as a the solution why are the Prime’s so hard to get? Why not make a plug in Grand Highlander or Tacoma? Why are the larger plug in hybrids only available as a Lexus? My next car will be an EV, but Toyota doesn’t make a good EV so I’ll be buying from a different company. My guess is that Toyota has got it wrong and they should be focused on making at least one fantastic EV, but we’ll see.
Toyota is currently working on the Tesla like production system development including Giga-press with Japanese suppliers. It will take several years.
This is why Toyota want to delay EV adoption until they are ready for profitable EV.
It feels like Toyota wants to keep people teathered to a fuel source that offers the least amount of control for the public. No one can drill and refine oil in their backyard or produce pressurized hydrogen in their garage. They are keeping their customers in the thrall of fuel supply. Electric Vehicles can get power any way electrical power is produced, which opens up the possibilities of fuel freedom. I believe they made a fully electric vehicle that showcases all the problems they want people to believe are problems with EVs. It moves the needle back towards their gas and hybrid vehicles. I think it is a poor strategy if other companies continue to advance in ev technology.
Have been seeing a ton of these BZ 4X cars on our roads here in the lower mainland of British Columbia so they must be selling every one they bring in. Kind of brings to mind the point of people not really needing all that range they think they do as mos 30:10 t of them are merely used as luxurious 'grocery hunters' or so it seems...
Strategies in the EV industry are always changing so thanks for keeping us up-to-date. I wonder if you could do a podcast on ChargePoint charging strategy it seems like they were a huge leader and small AC chargers, but are they going to expand into DC fast charging like electrify America and many of these other Roadside charging islands ChargePoint 500 kW express plus charger really seems to check a lot of the boxes, but we don’t see very many of them in our neck of the woods. Also, if you get a chance to talk with ChargePoint, maybe you could ask them why on their app with the map of chargers in America, there’s no filter for the larger DC chargers you can filter for DC chargers but most of them are the smaller 125 or even More common are the 65 kW chargers, maybe you could ask them why their app doesn’t allow you to further filter out these smaller DC chargers
Toyota strategy is not difficult to figure out and it has nothing to do with Eco decisions. You just have to look at their earnings report to understand their strategy. They’re making hands over fist profits from hybrids which are cheaper to make then an EV and still benefit from the IRA Tax credits. Why would they transition to EV when that would take away from their cash cow business. You’re asking the number one ICE and hybrid manufacturer in the world to transition to EV’s where they would be middle of the pack at best? Why would they do that before they have to?
This adds legitimacy though to their argument. Batteries are the most expensive they will ever be and the supply chain is as limited as it will probably ever be. So making smaller batteries now does make sense.
I bought a 2019 RAV4 Hybrid four years ago. It is a great car and sold me on electric. I now have a Mach e and F-150 Lightning. They meet my needs. If Toyota had something I would have stayed with Toyota.
I think it's interesting. Toyota seems to have the attitude that people don't want electrics. So make a great one and when they sit on the lot, you will have proven your point. I think they are scared people will buy them in droves.
Great episode you two! I really do not like the word electrified :P
terrible...Either toyota is riding it's profit margins for as long as it can tell it stops or at some point they will make a massive shift. Definitely don't think they will be the first one to market with a solid state production car :(
I still think Toyota is waiting/betting on their solid state battery research.
All comes from China the batteries
Toyota is a very conservative company and slow to change. They have invested billions in hybrids and are still raking in cash from ICE sales.
Toyota boss needs to go
@@MrGMawson2438 as long as they are making absurd amounts of money he is safe. Remember its all about shareholder value
Good afternoon Francie and Jordan
The BZ4X FWD has 150kw peak charging and with 18in wheels has 252 miles of EPA range; this is the BZ4X to get. It's got reasonable range, good charging (better then Leaf, E-niro, Kona EV). Toyota's Safety Sense 3.0 gives adaptive cruise and lane centring as standard. The BZ4X battery warranty is excellent.
Hate to break it to you, but everything you just said about the BZX4 is nothing special. 250 miles range is not good with that crappy charging. The benchmark for charging speed is not the Leaf. You don't want to brag that your car charges faster than a Leaf or a Bolt. Battery warranty is 8 years/100k. EVERY EV HAS THAT..
@@gregpochet4812 The BZ4X RWD charges at a peak 150kw, which is better then the Kia Eniro, Hyundai Kona EV, Nissan Ariya, Vinfast, VF8, Chev Bolt and others. It's range is OK (Better than Mach-E base model and equal to MY RWD) and Toyota will extend the traction battery warranty if the vehicle receives annual Toyota servicing.
I'm curious what you'll think of this. I have a theory. No Japanese manufacture is really pushing EVs. It may be politics. China has the materials to make batteries. Japan doesn't want to rely on Chinese resources. That's why they aren't pushing EVs. Lithium was just found in Japan. Maybe soon that stance will change.
Um... Nissan?
They have had the Leaf longer than the Tesla has been out and hasn't expanded until the Aryia last year. Plus they are owned by a French company.
Cheers
Jordan, you should read a book by Michael Criton ( the Jurrassic Park guy) called Rising Sun. Great explanation on how Japanese corporations work together and their nation.
Oh good hell. No. Just, no.
Don't undersell Plugin Hybrids so much! For people who drive as much as I do in extreme, weather temperature swings and sometimes very sketchy roads PHEVs are sometimes the best choice. I personally love my PHEV.
As someone who drives a plug in hybrid and EVs, EVs easily trade blows with regards to those things. Infact I'd prefer something with a full ev style power train even if it still has an engine (like a Chevy volt vs prius prime of the same era as the volt). The real difference is gonna be vehicle design not particularly related to the power train. Like I'd take a rivian over anything from Toyota if that was my primary concern.
I want to give Toyota some credit. They are smarter than most of the legacy automakers. They don't do overboard with their EV communication, they are trickling out the EV plans, this makes their loyal customers and EV dislikers to feel safe and comfortable. Toyota will be one of the automakers that will survive, just because they are cautious and follows the real market trends, not the hype.
14:46 - well there ya go guys it sounds like you DO indeed have the answer, only the problem comes in that it doesn't necessarily tell you what you want to hear (Confirmation Bias) and doesn't give you the "warm and fuzzies", therein you are struggling to ACCEPT IT, and that's fine. mind you though these "personal struggles" we often have as adults are a SEPARATE ISSUE from whether or not a valid explanation has been placed in front of us (which it has)...
btw since Akio's articulated Toyota Mega Corp's position "ad-nauseam" at this late date in History, you DON'T actually need to hear from a Toyota Engineer, no, the people you need to hear from now are actually OUTSIDE of Toyota like at BMW AG or from Volvo who (to their credit) published that extensive report on the Carbon Footprint of manufacturing BEV's back a year or 2 ago. iirc Rory Reid of Top Gear/Autotrader UK either did a video on it, or referenced some parts of the report during one of his many reviews (dude's done like 2 Million).
I hope to buy a Toyota hybrid soon. I live in a rural area and an electric car is out of the question for me.
Trust me, you don't want a Toyota hybrid. I have a 2016 Lexus RX450h and it sucks! Worst driving experience ever! The eCVTs dulls the driving experience and drones along. Then there is added complexity of adding a hybrid powertrain over the regular gasoline engine. My RX struggles to hold charge in the 12v battery for more than a week. They use the DC/DC converter to charge the 12v and it just doesn't do a good job. Then there is simple fact that you still have to deal with a gasoline engine and the maintenance that comes with that. Clearly, you have electricity where you live or you wouldn't be here on UA-cam. So, I'm curious to know why you think an EV would not work. I'd personally rather have a pure gasoline or pure EV over a hybrid.
Please get a 2024 BZ AWD and do another range test, 10% challenge and charge test. It easily hits over 100 kWh and sustains that rate rather long. I’ve charged from literally 0%-80% in 40 mins. The fwd will hit a higher peak but it tapers off faster and actually chargers just slightly slower than the AWD. Additionally, at 100% SOC I’ve gotten as much 280 in town driving and 215 in all hwy 75+ mph w ac on. We know estimated range is more about driving habits so if the guy before you was flogging the car then it will show an estimation based on that aggressive driving style.
Evidently, Toyota hasn’t drank the EV Kool-Ade and is waiting for the EV honeymoon to end.