The best craftsmen don't measure like others do
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- Опубліковано 12 тра 2024
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My Woodcutters is a small Canadian business that specializes in Helical carbide jointer/planer heads and replacement HSS steel knives for both new and older machines. It is well worth supporting: mywoodcutters.com/
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"..and you're fat too."...Seriously? When people resort to name calling or personal attacks it only affirms the fact they see the validity in what you're saying. Thanks for all the vids.
I learned the hard way that, if you try to get too exact, it's as you split that final atom that the whole project explodes in your face. Nowadays I always round up to the nearest atom.
Many years ago, I worked at Pella Windows and Doors as the "specials carpenter". Which means that built all the windows not produced for us by the factory, such as triangles, trapezoids, or octagons. Well, building an octagonal window requires cut accuracy of 1/64", because if you miss over or under that your window is then 1/8" inch off sized. The material was such a size that it had to be cut using a 16" radial arm saw. Boy I dreaded getting orders for those.
Fine measurement doesn't matter so much when you work with wood, since wood can expand and shrink more than ⅛ inch from heat, cold, and moisture. Finer measurements are more work for little gain. Metal work is another story.
@@stephenmartin8331 WOW ! That is a really generalized statement. What kind of wood ? What size wood ? Thick or thin, long or short. Doesn't show much actual thought.
I still think you should give me all your tools. Not because you're wrong - I just want all your tools.
😂
😂😂
Sorry, he promised them to me.
@@TomLeg He put me in his will since I'm his brother.
Ever since you called him fat, he aint giving you squat!
The old woodworker's maxim 'Never measure what you can mark' has been my go to over the years. Measuring ( I mean , you do have to measure a lot of stuff ) introduces an extra step. Extra steps = extra interpolation=extra chances for error.
Same with angles.
For your 12" box, clamp the two sides together then place the bottom/top piece next to them and measure 12" on that piece. As you say, you don't really care how long the base is.
I also use a lot of story sticks. Layout the part lengths on the stick. Then transfer measurements to your parts. For matching parts, make one then use that to the mark all the others.
I would also add, never mark when you can set up a physical stop to repeat the cut.
I’ve been woodworking for well over 45 years and so have been through all the ages. When I started, it was wooden folding rules where the divisions themselves were 1/64” wide. Now, my measuring tools are all super accurate but my eyesight has failed to the extent that I can’t see better than 1/64”. So, I’m b*ggered either way.
Seriously, all my woodworking life, I have found that consistency and fit are the key measurements. It has never mattered that this table was, overall, 1/8” too long or too wide. What does mater is that all the boards are the same - that’s the consistency part. It also doesn’t matter that my drawer opening is whatever size it is as I cut and fit the drawer box to fit the opening - not a measurement.
I totally agree about reducing steps in any measuring process. I too use story sticks (they stop me making stupid mistakes like 100mmm too short or too long). For consistency of length or width, I use stops, fences and planing where I need to.
Keep up the good work of bursting the pretentious bubble of “better” woodworkers. Boy, does this hobby have its fair share.
Fun fact, even metalworkers can measure in mm and then go to "by fit" parts finness by scraping or lapping.
Here and I felt like a total novice cutting and re-cutting wood to make it fit right. Kind of a relief watching your videos honestly, thanks for making them.
I think it depends on how many re-cuts you have to do ;-))))))
"stable like metal or a good hard cheese". Just pure gold.
I came to the comments just to find this reply. 😁
Well, gold is metal, so it's pretty stable.
Also loved that line. Look forward to an April Fool video on dovetail joints in hard cheese!
It had me rolling 🤣😂🤣😂🤣
He’s so dry w the delivery. It’s great. “And you’re fat too” also had me cracking up that he added that.
As a retired engineer, I have always had to school my newbies on the difference between accuracy and precision.
I have been given conflicting meanings for those. I would appreciate hearing yours.
Accuracy whether the variance in your measurements centers on the true value. Precision is size of that variability. You can be accurate, but it might not matter if you're not also precise, leaving you with parts of all different sizes. For woodworking it can be a lot more useful to be precise (low variance, usually attained by marking parts directly), even if none of those parts is to the original spec. Take the example of a square box. Does it really matter if the perimeter pieces are a tiny fraction of an inch off so long as they're all off by exactly the same fraction? As described by Mr. Nubs, it's also common practice to just oversize everything a bit and sneak up on the perfect fit by careful iteration.
Think of pi. It's an irrational number, meaning that no matter how many decimal places you know for it, there's always more. (So far it has been calculated to nearly 63 trillion decimal places.) I have memorised it to six: 3.1415926. That's not actually _accurate,_ as the next digits are 5 and 3, so to be _accurate_ it should be 3.1415927.
But either is far more _precise_ than is normally needed. Many people know pi as 3.14, which is also _accurate_ and about the _precision_ one normally needs. (Your calculation would be off by only 0.5%, i.e. about one inch in 17 feet) But it would also be _accurate_ to say that pi is 3, although it's not as _precise_ as one would normally need.
As an engineer and metrologist I have done the same thing. I like to think of it this way. If all of the mm marks on a metric ruler are all exactly 1.05 mm apart, that ruler is 5% inaccurate. But it is very precise and may be very useful in laying out a project.
@@gordonday9666so precision is consistency and accuracy is correctness? Something like that?
This reminds me of when I learned why so many framers build houses to a 1/4" tolerance.
I was building my dad a shed and was determined to have everything perfect since I wasn't on the clock and could spend the time to do so. The first weekend I built the floor, walls and trusses. Everything was exactly the right size. By the next weekend when I came back to finish, some of the walls had changed size by up to 1/8". I was unhappy but had learned a lesson.
So glad to hear this. When I was young, you'd see plans having dimensions like "5 + 37/64ths." Decades later, you realize they simply took an existing project, measured it, and wrote down whatever their precise calipers indicated. Good woodworkers simply cut to whatever looks right and fits, and the dimensions are whatever they are.
Yeah, that would be 9/16ths or even 5/8ths to most sane people 😂
and then when it needs to be placed where it's supposed to be, it doesn't fit, good job.
That number probably is just what the CAD software is throwing out. A good designer wouldn't use that measurement since it's rather irrelevant. If you round up a measurement taken from an angled cut though, that would mean that they had set the software to round the mesurement as small as a 64th of an inch and that's where you would most likely see it.
@@shinobuoshino5066 For formwork carpenters on a concrete building, one of the things you can build that usually calls for the greatest accuracy is the building of the stairs. Now I, as a carpenter, can look at the drawings and see that the architect specified a floor-to-floor rise of 10 feet with 17 risers on the stair, making the unit of rise 7 and 15/256ths of an inch per riser. And I have in the past seen novice architects write down these absurd fractions on the drawings, but you will never see an experienced formwork carpenter try to meet this level of accuracy. Why?
The building code in my area allows for up to 1% of positive slope on the treads.
Concrete placers will never achieve that level of laser line accuracy with a hand trowel.
It's a waste of time and money to fuss over something that has a vertical tolerance of 1/8th of an inch across an 11" tread with a 1" nosing.
Even with finishing carpenters, it's far more common to see them scribe the actual material thickness onto another piece of wood than it is to see them pull out a set of calipers.
@@shinobuoshino5066of IT needs to be that accurate, don't use wood. Just sanding the wood will already change it to something else. And don't even think what the different moisture and temperature, even if it's in your living room all year, will do to it.
It took me a long time to realise that precision in woodworking is often achieved by "sneaking up" to the target.
Yeah that is what I've created all kinds of jigs and fences with micro adjustments. I can take off a thousandth more with my table saw.
That’s what planes are for: 1/1000 of an inch per shaving until you can brag about how awesome your fit is.
Yup and the more you do it the less sneaking you have to do. If I get the perfect fit off the saw I sigh in relief because I know I was lucky.
the ol' "lets take a hair off" for the 5th time
You've made it sound very similar to having a new bootiful gf laying around in our beds that supposedly just wants to cuddle with us. 😂
You got me Stumpy. I spend more time watching woodworking videos than I spend in the shop. However, I laugh out loud SO many times at your wonderfully dry one-liners that I watch your videos as soon as they're released. I learn a LOT and enjoy both the lesson and quips immensely. THANK YOU!!!!
"I cut it twice and it's still too short!" Favourite carpentry line ever.
Measure once, cut twice 👍😂
I feel like this line exists worldwide 😂
Measure, cut, curse, repeat!
"Measure twice, forget and cut wrong anyway" - ADHD carpentry
I like old ditties like that....I'm going to remember that and repeat it.
My sheet metal fabrication/welding instructor told me a story from when he was a welder on a navy ship. They were in Asia somewhere getting repairs and local repair guy took measurements by holding his hands apart, turning around putting his hands on the material and marking it. When he was done hand measuring and cutting, the part fit perfectly. My instructor was amazed by the skill.
I had a safety director who could tell you the measurements of an object to incredibly precise measurements (1/8”) so easily we thought he was sneaking around the job at night measuring stuff. He was a marine fitter of many years experience.
I've used this method a lot over the years but I don't think I'm good enough to repair machine parts or or ship hulls using it haha
Mr. Bean!😂
@@SkenderbeuismyheroRepairing a ship’s hull only requires the patch be bigger than the hole with enough material around the edges to work with to get a proper weld to last until the next drydock yard period where a more thorough repair can be done if there was damage to the frame as well.
In a combat damage control scenario you’re going to plug that hole with whatever you can to slow the water entering the ship enough that pumps and other dewatering methods can keep up and prevent the ship from sinking.
"...a good hard cheese." Man, I love your humor. All delivered with a straight face, like the best stand-up.
Good info, too.
I live in the UK and am of an age where I can use both the imperial or metric scales. So I use whichever scale suits the project best- truly ambidextrous!
yeah I see zero reason to not use either system. I like to use whatever is easiest to _visualize_ in the situation. Millimeters for measuring thickness of guitar picks instead of thousandths of an inch; feet/inches for a person's height instead of all those centimeters. I actually think stone is more convenient for comparing people's weights than kilograms or pounds, but grams is best for dry ingredients in precise chemical formulas. Definitely prefer light-years instead of kilometers.
Exactly! scales are a tool that have pros and cons for different scenarios
As a proper (old?) Canadian, I also flip between imperial and metric as the whim strikes. Although, I recently met a 30 something who had no idea how long inches are as they have only been taught and used metric.
I'm of the younger brits, but I have to admit I don't hate imperial in a lot of situations
Cups are brilliant for cooking, a pint is a good size of drink, a pound weighs the same as that pint of drink, and inches just feel natural for DIY projects.
Despite growing up with them, I find millimeters are often too fine of a scale and can get bogged down, and centimeters hardly help much.
If I'm working on something with precision I'll use mm, but to be honest it just doesn't come up very often because precision generally is "make it to fit"
@@rickblackwell6435 I’m also an older Canadian and I still find myself being more comfortable with imperial because it’s so ingrained into me from childhood and because so much of the legacy tools, equipment, drawings and information is imperial. Also, so much of what is available to us in the way of equipment, tools, plans and videos is American sourced that we still see it every day. I go to Home Depot and buy Robertson screws in fractional imperial increments. I also designed products that were sold primarily to the U.S. market. As long as our southern neighbours continue to use imperial we’ll have to keep going along for the ride. It made trying to train my gen Z replacement before I retired rather interesting.
I just retired as a architectural draftsman, and have measured many buildings. To a half inch for site items, to a quarter inch on the building outside, to an eighth inch inside. Wood moves.
The last project upset me some as I used my equipment to cut all the pieces out, and was pleased that they were all the right size. Came back the next day and many parts were no longer straight or the exact size they were yesterday. Welcome to wood working. I'm used to working with metal at home, so I learned something.
I have a laser tape that is accurate enough to install crown molding. Didn’t trust it at first, but will never go back to using a (bent over) tape.
Agreed. I use a laser for inside work. The first one the architect had measured to 1/64 and was a pain to use because of that. I got one that measured to 1/16 and that was easier to glance at and understand the number.
Hey I just retired from the same job ! but now I can make things at my own pace and what I want to build. Always loved the trade just dislike the business..
Pro tip: If you cut lumber you won't process further the same day, wrap it in plastic until you can get to it again (should be asap though, otherwise leave the cutting for later). Should help a lot, assuming the stock was properly dried in the first place ofc and didn't have a pocket of moisture inside. If that's the case, nothing will save you
Does the mystery "warp" vary depending on the thickness of the wood? The type of wood affect it?
“Who cares x Doesn’t matter “……love it because it’s true!
Great video. As a beginner, this is very helpful to quell my OCD tendencies when it comes to dimensions.
Also, thank you for pointing out the difference between accuracy and precision.
Metric user here: you nailed it. Measuring and cutting stuff to a precision below the mm, is best left to machines. Why? Because think of the line you draw when you mark a cut line. Because you then have to adjust manually the blade position... all these can easily add-up to errors much greater than that half... or 10th of a mm you may strive for. Cut and then fit to dimension. Saves time, money, material and mental health. I'm not a professional. I'm a DIYer that has been through many projects. And during my first projects I wanted to go by the approach of cutting as precisely as possible, ignoring the basic accuracy my tools and my hands are capable of... I learned the hard way to cut and then fit if needed. Because nothing is more frustrating than the third piece of material that you cut just short enough to not be able to get away with it. Patience, plan ahead, cut and then fit.
Even machines have a tolerance level. Take a 2440x1220mm (8x4ft) sheet of ply often dead on, but just as often plus/minus the size
@@0skar9193 Absolutely correct. My main idea was that for precision below 1mm, it's best to use a machine... not scribbling with the pen on wood and then cut...
Machinist tolerances are exceeded with expansion and contraction of wood😂
Plus, if machinists could sand steel like wood, they wouldn't be worried about that level of precision. 😆
Yea.
Well. Unless you take the wood to a machinist who knows historical bearing standards.
Then your wood will get pressed, heated, wax impreg, and stabilized. Then you can use Machinist tolerances.
And your wood will be visually ruined, brittle, but really slippery and hard like teflon, only it handles sand better.
Im a machinist, i used to tool up an still operating historic manucaturing plant.
@@AnonymousAnarchist2 my brother is a machinist and his attention to detail in any DIY project is very meticulous 🫡
I'm a retired foundry patternmaker that learned the trade before CNC patternmaking was a thing.
Awesome trade; incredibly rewarding. But rather different than cabinets and furniture.
@@Shin_LonaTRUE! And, I might add, so does metal. In fact when doing precision metal work it is necessary to consider whether it’s steel or aluminum to adjust measurements for accuracy.
Totally agree, Spot on. I built a library from Cotswold stone in Fairford UK. It was when CAD first started to be used for drawings, the length of the building was shown to .5mm. I took the architect outside and asked him to pick a stone as there was sure to be one that was correct.
A CNC operator usually aims for a tolerance of 1/100 mm, a metalworker 1/10mm, woodworking 1mm and the bricklayer tries to stay on the property.
My next project is going to be measured to the nearest barley corn and made of good hard cheese! I love your dry humour! And your videos are great for helping me do better in my workshop. Thanks :)
I’m a machinist. I work to thousands of an inch daily. I agree with your basic point here. It’s your dedication to precision that makes the difference. As far as function goes, it’s about making sure you’ve created consistency. We work in different ways, but professionalism is the same across the board.
Great video. I've been woodworking for nearly 50 years. A couple years ago, I visited my brother-in-law for a weekend. He is a recent inductee into the UA-cam woodworker group. I tried all weekend to convince him to try the "cut to fit" method. Unfortunately, I failed miserably. He was sure I owned several red squares because they were accurate to .00000000000001". When I told him I don't need that accuracy, he said he was disappointed because he thought I could give him some pointers about measuring. Thx.
I didn't tell him that verbatim, but I mentioned to him that a very small accumulation of sawdust or the tiniest sliver would negate that level of accuracy. Yep. You're spot on. Thx.@@JoeSevy
What you're describing here is the difference between a nominal dimension and the tolerance. Right on.
I’m a newly graduated engineer, so I’m happy to learn that my intuition on this was on track. Thanks!
A famous german saying goes like this: The woodworker measures to the millimeter, the carpenter measures to the centimeter, the builder is glad if he stays within the property :D
when Mr. Nubs called out folks who watch more woodworking videos than do woodworking.... I felt that.
That wasn't calling anyone out. It's just a fact that hands on experience teaches you things you don't typically get from videos. Doesn't make watching videos wrong, and it's understandable that some folks can't get much shop time.
@@StumpyNubs for instance - woodworking channel says "I ended up needing a 34 1/64th inch part" when experience would say, "I cut a part that fit". It's a difference between presentation and practice.
Thank you, but I know who I am. lol. Keep up the great work. You're the teacher many of us need.
@@StumpyNubs
It's like any schooling ( well, what used to be schooling ).
Learn all you can in school. Just don't expect a lot of it to be relevant in the real world.
I watch a lot of woodworking & carpentry YT channels, its easy to get sucked in and think everything is easy. Repitition in the shop is a great teacher.
One of your older videos about story sticks helped me. Project parts and story sticks are the way to go for measuring!
Storyboards are great especially when you use some weird design features like a Dynamic Symmetry spacing on a dresser. I wouldn't be able to tell you the size of anything there but I can bring the storyboard and use those measurements to build it.
Doing house carpentry I’ve probably gotten into more trouble trying to be more precise than necessary so I now sneak up on things as suggested. At 80 years old I didn’t grow up with the kind of tools available now so I had to learn the hard way. My dad built our house with a skill saw and finish hammer. A lot of work was done with hand saws and a miter box. I have huge respect for those old guys who did amazing work.
I'm working on a commercial job building an addition on a country club. They have a stairway out back and we installed Ipe on the wall behind the stairs. The plans called for the Ipe to be ran at the angle of the stairs, which was 32.84°. We used a digital angle gauge to get as close as possible but that's a rare occurrence. I know it's not fractions but it's the same principle. We normally build with common angles and not ridiculous degrees.
I'm a retired kitchen remodeler (Finish Carpenter specializing in updating kitchens), I was NOT a cabinet maker. In my 30 yrs of experience I always worked to achieve dead-on accuracy, most of time it was settling for a sixteenth of an inch, but a lot of times I was staring at an eighth... The world aint perfect, although, we try to be!
At work, I used to trim blinds to width for customers. The tolerance given by the manufacturer of the cutting machine was +/- 1/8th of an inch. Of course I would always strive to do better than that and could usually get them cut exactly. I would always measure after I cut to make sure it was right, but I also liked to see how well I did. One time, a customer was watching and noticed I was slightly disappointed after measuring and asked me if anything was wrong. I had to explain that there was nothing actually wrong; I was just off by 1/128th of an inch. 😅 I was only 16x more accurate than I needed to be.
As you must know after doing it for 30 years, sometimes being 100% accurate on the fit is actually a bad thing because humidity exists, and if that fancy under sink cabinet ever gets wet from a sink leak or a sweating pipe, suddenly the wood expansion from the moisture causes all kinds of problems... shelf doors that don't line up, bowed out or cracked vertical dividers. etc.
I've always found it better to cut slightly smaller and caulk the corners with a thin bead of white silicone than to aim for 100% tight fits and hope that no moisture finds its way down there.
@@-Keith- Couldn't agree more, especially with oak cabinets, the cells are so big, if you sneezed, they'd grow in size & u r right, the sink cabs were a pain in the butt.😄
@@-Keith-As a garage door installer I've had to learn to cut the PVC weather seal we use a tad short because it will expand on a warm day.
Have had to go back and re do some because it popped out. I've also taken to shooting nails in at opposing angles as well to mitigate that.
I went back to the UK from the US. I got my first job with a formwork company because I understood feet and inches. My Dad was the engineer in charge of converting the Lordstown assembly line over to metric.
I knew metric before I went back to the UK.
I just find metric so much easier to deal with.
Me too, except when I’m asking for a sheet of plywood: “I need an 8 by 4” is just easier to say than “I need a 2440 x 1220” 😉
@@vooveks Annoyingly, here in Oz plywood sheets come in both 1200x2400 and 1220x2440, depending on the supplier.
This is exactly why I am always able to make 'built-in' projects in my workshop for later assembly on-site; millimetre-precise measurement (especially of diagonals). Sometimes I might need to plane off a half millimetre during installation, but usually not. It works even in old buildings without straight walls - As Long As You Measure Everything, including deviations from true, to the nearest millimetre.
You are the most amazing instructor. A++++
I hope the whole world discovers you, and learns what you're teaching.
My first couple teachers were OLD OLD SCHOOL.
I showed up to the first "paying" job (Second teacher) with a brand new tape measure. HE TOOK IT AWAY!!! Gave me a ½ inch square stick amd a pencil.
This is where I learned about a "Story Stick". We did alot of remodeling in older homes in New England and used the story sticks to transfer measurements. He had bunches of them. All with addresses and rooms or more info written on them.
I hadn't heard the term story stick, but as an electrician, I have one with all my important measurements on it. (ok, it's a story-scrap-piece-of-conduit, but close enough).
Now I know what it's called.
@@ChanakNZ Story sticks (or story poles as we called them) are specific to the task at hand.
I always love doing projects that don't require a tape. Its amazing what you can build without measuring if you plan first and have a rough estimate of what you want to build.
I work for a company that makes industrial furnaces around 100 megawatts, as big as a building. Our clients often request trial fitting of components at shop before site erection. We tell them no there's need - we drill the holes together through each pair of mating flanges, then weld them to the components so they are guaranteed to fit. We do supply them with a template for setting out the anchor bolts in the foundations, though.
I love how smooth your explanations are!!!! Pro!!!!
I couldn't agree more, 1mm is a fine enough scale for a medium that expands and contracts with the weather. In fact as much as possible, I will use increments of 5mm. For example if I have a choice of making a project 74 or 75mm long, I'll pick 75.
That's exactly why it's such a pointless debate, users of both systems start with easy, round numbers that their respective system was designed for.
Your patience in dealing with the internet trolls IMO, is nothing short of genius! You are a master of diplomacy and deserving of admiration. You put the "Q" in quality videos. May your edge tools be as sharp as your insight....and, may all your wood grain run straight.
Im a bricklayer in north america. Im not working wood but i find your videos really useful. Thank you for your time
Dang bro, you shouldn't let the comments get to you so hard. YOU CREAT GREAT MATERIAL! There is to many people in the world that are just mad cause they are sitting at home eating junk food and would rather criticize someone else about their own downfalls. Than get up and always be improving on doing GOOD. Whatever that "good may be. Your tool wall alone speaks volume if your workmanship.
Who is letting comments get to them "so hard"? Creating a teachable moment from something I see in a comment is the opposite of letting it get to me.
Dear James, you are a great teacher. Your videos are not only experience and expertise but also hard work and dedication. Thank you ever so much
Thanks for this down-to-earth video. Precision does not mean "small" it means accurate and tight fitting ... that can be done at 1/8 inch as well as 1/128 in
😊 stumping nubs you are a true blessing to woodworkers in the woodworking industry. Keep up the good work keep your wood dry and your pencil sharp.
This was very helpful. I do my measurements this way and I thought I was taking shortcuts. Thank you for validating how I measure and cut.
As a novice woodtinkerer I learn so much from you. Oddly I watch more hours of your videos than I’m actually woodtinkering. Thank you so much.
Exactly. Well said. I'm 60 and have been making furniture and wood projects all my life. All properly measured and fitted. I've done it all with fairly meager tools... I don't use junk tools, but reasonably priced ones. Personally, that's why I can't stand all of these youtube channels sporting overpriced tools like woodpecker. I'm skilled enough employing a $14 Swanson square rather than blowing $130 on a woodpecker. No call for that and IMHO just a waste of good money. I'd rather take that $116 and by materials!
I love your portrayal of the public/comments on these videos.
I clicked this video thinking about how it is going to teach how to measure more accurately and was ready to defend this very approach. I learned over the years that a test fit is worth more than an absolute measurement.
Natural wood also has internal stress that is partially released when cut, so you may find you measured a length exactly, but when cut the wood twisted or bent ever so slightly so the initial measurement is off.
Right on James, thanks for explaining it to those who have no idea what they are trying to say but are willing to try and start an argument. Keep up the good videos and the information you always share with us. Fred.
In your box example, you don't even need to sneak up on it like that.
If you set one of the side panels over with the other like ||_ you can measure your final 12-in width from left to right and to do it in one cut
That's what I came here to say. Mark out 12", Stand up both side pieces inside that 12" mark, then mark again. There's your cut line.
Yep this is the way I make cabinets etc, panel thickness varies so doing this to get the required outside measurement is so much easier
Set a stop block and cut the 12, now add the two offcuts to the stopblock and cut the other two.
Most of the time you only need to meassure the place where the Projekt will later be placed.
Exactly. A
Align 12" to the right side and read your inside measurement on the left side.
Dude i love this video .Started woodworking about 2 years ago and while i can measure just fine i find myself just cutting to fit most of the time. Kinda felt like a hack till i seen this video. ty
Kudos on this video. I’ve learned to make the basic structure of the project using a ruler. After that I use the method of marking the other parts by using the method you demonstrated with the back of the box and still cut slightly larger and sneaking up on the fit. We’re not making car engines like you stated. I did that for a living and could adjust cnc machines to .100 mm.
I think one of the major differences between woodworking and machining is identifying the limitations of your measuring devices and planning your workflow accordingly.
In my experience, proper order of cuts and correct use of tools like routers and table saw fences have been very effective for good joinery. (Still pull out my calipers when I need to make a dado for an odd thickness board though)
Good video. You did mention one case of merely transferring an unknown measurement (the bottom of the box), but there are many others using measuring tools like dividers or a marking gauge to transfer measurements without actually knowing their numerical value. For instance, one sets the distance between the pins on a mortising gauge by picking up the separation directly from the mortising chisel, and then using the gauge to mark both the mortise and the tenon. Very nifty and accurate. And also, some people don't know the difference between fat and stocky.
The title caught my attention and then I was surprised that this needed to be explained.
It always made sense to me to keep measurements simple, and because store bought supplies aren't exactly as labeled, the build will be what it wants to be.
After all, we're making furniture for our homes, not accessories for the space station 😏🤭
I like your style and that made me subscribe and check out your other videos 🙂👍🏻
There is some mighty fine timber frame work that takes wood expansion/contraction into account and thus one anticipates huge movements. The framer uses wood type, moisture content, and whether cross or end grain to leave room for shrinkage of green timber.
Spot on about measuring, accuracy, and tolerances. I've been in sheet and structural metalworking for nearly 30 years. Plus or minus a sixteenth is a typical shop tolerance requirement - the welders can work with that. Same for woodworking - after that it's just a little sanding, glue and maybe some filler putty. Nobody actually measures and cuts to 1/64 with consistency. Now, of course, machining is different - but woodworking is NOT machining as some UA-cam channels would have you believe... that's just selective editing and special effects.
As someone who is more familiar with machine shop than woodworking, this still applies. I feel this line of thinking is why so many new machinists feel like the need a CNC machine to to complete a certain part.
Being a novice machinist myself, seems all you have to know to run a CNC machine is push buttons. Well it's a little more than than, they do have to set the part correctly in the CNC and know how to read precision measuring tools to check the parts after they are made, but it's nothing compared to running a manual lathe or mill. On all but very complicated parts, custom parts can be made better and faster on manual machines. CNC really shines doing production work.
There are tons of use cases for CNC machines outside of production work. Molds, patterns, Automotive inspection fixtures, prototypes, etc.
We call the button pushers, CNC "operators" and not machinists for a reason. A CNC machinist requires just as much knowledge and skill as a manual machinist to do their job. These are people who are not just pushing buttons but also programming, setting up, and machining the parts.
You learn a lot more about tooling and material properties when programming parts for a cnc as you need more precision in your feeds/speeds when cutting at very fast feed rates in order to balance tool life/operation efficiency. Saying this as someone who made thousands of one off parts in CNC machines. Anything from tiny medical parts, to car sized patterns, all in non-production shops
This is some of the most common sense advice I’ve heard. But then again I’m old school having had a wood shop class in high school in the 70’s. Thank you, sir.
I am glad you made this video, I have been in many arguments with people about the accuracy of measuring. When I was framing houses, I once called out 89 and 13/16ths and the old guy I was working with freaked out and yelled at me and said "we do not measure to 16ths of an inch framing houses, if you want to read to that precision. get into finish carpentry!"
I got so tired of the metric-vs-imperial debate; now I use Hard Cheese Units. I've found that box joints of 0.75 Goudas are the most aesthetically pleasing.
Aged or smoked?
Definitely aged. :)
I work in a custom woodworking shop, typically on cabinets. Our drawings regularly have dimensions of fractions in 32nds and I have even seen things on occasion specified for 64ths. So for me, I do have to build to that fine a level, but I'm sure most people could just keep things to the 16th and be just fine. Thanks for making your videos, I find them to be really helpful and interesting!
Same here. 40 years in woodworking, I am over anal for my projects, but only sometimes. So i am getting into making pool cues. .001 is just right for me.
I have a theory that some of these drawings are the result of someone using automatic conversion tools in the software to convert from metric to imperial, and they don't set the minimum units to be 1/16".
@@jeremyfirthI agree that that is a poor conversion. If be cautious about a drawing converted in the software without actually adjusting sizes. Rounding errors may mean you have several parts a 32nd of an inch short.
I agree with you. I learned from an old machinist mate who claimed he had a micrometer eye. So sometimes I take a guess at something before I measure it, just to see how close I can get. It depends on my emotional state on how accurate I guess at the measurement. What to watch out for is accumulated error and plumb and square.
Thank You! I am with you all the way! I am retired but have done a lot of restoration and repair of cabinets etc… and have been in the habit of using a wood rule for inside measurements, probably because my father loved the wood rule, I had a carpenter tell me once I was resold fashion and should get a tape measure. I was 60 at the time. 😃 I started to explain I use a tape also he interrupted and said that’s all you need. I said ok! So I agree most of the time I held the stock and marked it to fit and don’t know what the measurement was. So from this old timer thanks! 👍👍👍
Enjoyed your discussion. In 1967, my advanced woodshop class entered into a program consisting of several high-school woodshops in Orange County, California to build wooden clocks to be displayed in their school offices. The parts and gears were made to tolerances requiring micrometers borrowed from the machine shops. Sadly, the program collapsed as a few schools fell out of the program. Since I had graduated, I returned to visit my shop teacher and was told that he was continuing to make missing parts as it was an excellent training exercise. College and life didn't allow me to return to the joys of woodworking.
So what?
I see a repeating pattern here about metric vs imperial system. I hope people stop giving you heat for this. I'm from EU and I'm not bothered by imperial measurements. Yes, yes, sometimes I smile about the mouthful fractions even native speaker has trouble to say (imagine how non-native speaker feels) but who cares. I liked your "who cares" and "it doesn't matter" dimensions :)
As a beginner woodworker self/ YT taught I like your comment at 6:29. This is how I approach projects I do. I felt a bit stupid doing this but feel much better now seeing this is a legit technique by professionals.
Just to mess with people sometimes I'll use fractional meters. 😜
As a carpenter, when I measure I will go strong or shy of the nearest 1/16. That gets me close to the nearest 32nd or 64th. When real critical measuring I will mark my piece with a utility knife.
Often when trimming, I can make my piece of work long , hold it in place and mark it in place with a knife without even measuring at all.
45 yrs. Carpenter - this is the the best way to do things. Fast, accurate and results in a professional job.
There are many tricks of the trade.
@@BradNewton-rq5zv
We have to be close to the same age. 45 years for me too.
I came here to say the same thing. A "strong" or "shy" 1/16 effectively divides each 1/16 into three, which is measuring to 48 divisions per inch. Anything closer than that you can sneak up on with multiple cuts.
That's how most professionals do it. I get things within a 1/32 of an inch or less and use a scale that only goes down to 1/16. People who think you can't do that do not know what they're doing, they're just reading or watching videos.
Stumpy,, you make my day. “Like metal or a good hard cheese.” Thank you.
That's a really interesting perspective! I primarily do 3D printing but occasionally work with wood, and a, always having issues with accuracy. In 3D printing everything is designed ahead of time, defined by exact measurement in the computer, made to fit a 3D model not any specific real part. I've probably been expecting wood to be like plastic too much.
One little trick I use for centering drawer pulls is "X marks the spot". If there is only one drawer pull, then I just draw an X between the corners to place it perfectly, without any measurements. For drawers that need 2, I measure half-way to get the center (or I could also draw the single X), then make a line. That line forms the "corners" that I use to draw the remaining 2 X's and my draw pulls are perfectly centered on each side.
Ya lost me, but glad it works for you!
SMART as usual. Why would someone question a master like this? Thank you, James.
Mad respect, Dude! Don't waste yer time with those trolls. They ain't worth the dust from yer saw! Keep being awesome and sharing your knotledge and woodsdom with folks who are eager to continue learning! Thanks a million!
Thanks for saying it out loud, much appreciated.
I have always measured to the rough length I need that is slightly larger. As the old adage says: it is easier to remove material, then it is to add material back that you did not accommodate for needing. This is true in welding, machining, casting, and wood working. As you have to take into account thermal expansion and contraction, because wood will expand and contract just like metal or any other substance.
I just finished building a huge timber frame shop. I was happy to be off in any place less than 3/8 inch in 20 ft.
I'm not a woodworker, but I have made many various small projects out of sheet metal, PVC pipe, wood, plastic, etc. I do most of my measurements just as you describe and always thought that I was cheating or not really doing it the proper way. Well, lo and behold.
In fact, I just finished making a divider for the silverware drawer in our camper out of 1/8" plywood and wanted it to fit the drawer pretty snug. For this project, I didn't really "measure" anything. I used the drawer as my template, marked the plywood with a pencil and cut most everything just slightly oversized and then trimmed or sanded to final fit. I turned out looking great.
Totally agree. Everything you said and how you would make it fit.
that sure simplifies the process. i am a beginner and i built two end tables and was measuring to the 32nd of an inch and due to marking inaccuracies or just not setting the saw blade perfectly i was off.
So your problem was that you couldn't mark and/or cut accurately, not that measuring to the 32nd was an incorrect approach. Starting with a LESS accurate measurement, then adding your marking and cutting inaccuracy on top of that doesn't "simply the process" at all, it just increases your inaccuracy.
This was the complaint we had at our shop. The wood department had switched over to cnc and all the prints went over to decimals. The metal department had not switched over to cnc. We were running machines that were made back in ww2. Still army green and everything. The engineers still wanted us to be within a 1/32nd tolerance. And we had to switch everything from decimals to fractions since we didnt have decimal tape measures. The punch I was running drifted about every 20 parts. The saw we ran wouldn’t cut square most of the time. So many times products would get rejected because the tolerance was off more than the 32nd allowed. They finally got newer machines and even a laser for tubing and now everything is more precise like the wanted. But hand cut will never be as precise as cnc.
Great videos you do.
I have been a woodworker for 46 years. I started out in a high end shop where i got my training and knowledge and enough experience to run shops and eventually start my own when i turned 25 yrs old. I have been fortunate that i have clients and customers that only have high end work done and can and will pay its cost. I'm no accident being where i am in the field of woodwork
Now to my point,
I train everyone that works for me so i can not only get their work up to the standards i accept but also get their mindset to know what is capable and acceptable to classify as high end.
Measuring abilities are everything in importance. I use 32nds when training with tape measure. I do that for several reasons, 1st it makes them faster and more accurate in breaking down measurements within a inch,
2nd, when they are going for the 32nd it dosent matter if they get the 32nd or not, but what it will do is make them more precise hitting the 1/16th and at a faster rate. As all things it doesn't take long to become second nature seeing the the 32nd and experience teaches its a reference to know you are marking another piece if needed to exacting tolerance. So 32nd is only really used in training. In production we use 1/16th and its as good as needs to be. All that matters is i know if i have 9 different people making different parts or sections they go together flawlessly because i trained them all the same so no one is measuring any different.
Thanks for letting a old man rant on your comments.
Baited, chomped, and always glad to be reeled in, Stumpy!!
I couldn’t agree with you more. I found that the less I use a measuring tape the better things fit together. There are much better ways to set up for cuts. I never set my blade height on my table saw with a measuring tape or a setup block. I made a jig that I use that uses the stock, drill bits , or anything else that I want to fit into a cut.
Many thanks for including metric system in your brilliant videos, cheers from Europe!
@7:00 Yeah I fully agree and for years I've been telling my kids "I measure and cut twice" not to listen to people that say "measure once and cut once", you wind up having more waste that way if you screw up and cut it too short, my wood shop teachers hold me I was stupid for thinking that way. Your videos are the best wood working videos I've ever seen, I love how you don't put drama and theatrics in your videos please don't change and keep this style it's relaxing and very informative.
So last year my neighbor moved and says too me that he has a craftman saw he doesn't want anymore and wanted $20 for it, you know I thought it was a little hand saw or something, well turns out it was a craftsman radial arm from the early 80s, all it's org paperwork with a new upgraded guard and thing still looks brand new and has those digital measurement features on it, I didn't even think they had that stuff back them, but man I had $30 in my pocket and told him to keep the change, for the life of me I never thought I'd own such a nice vintage saw specially not for so cheap, it was his dads he works in the school system and doesn't do any wood working he said he wanted to help someone he knew would use it, I can't believe I got that thing, if you look in my yard it looks like a school bus grave yard, I'm mostly a mechanic but I do like wood working alot, very relaxing. I just got a garage and room for my stuff I have a little matching table saw from about the same year next to it. What's your thoughts on 80s vintage craftsman wood working stuff? I've not used the radial arm saw yet other than to test it out when I got it, I've used the table saw on flooring and it did great, it has a huge cast iron deck on it anyways sorry for blabbing, I don't got any other fellers to talk about saws with... Thanks for your time making this sir, your awesome.
I'm very proud of myself for kinda knowing where you were heading with your argument regarding 1/16" being fine enough of a measurement, but that's just because I agree with you! You're simply designing around the 1/16, and cutting accurately so you're not having to add 1/32 here and 3/64 there to make up for your mistakes.
6:53 We call that sneaking up on the measurement by whispers and kisses. 🤫😘
📏📐Love this practical advice! It's like Occam's Razor, whereas the simplest solution is usually correct. _Ty for taking the time to make this video and share these simple measuring tips._
This is a great video! Appreciate how you explained it :)
A former brother in law that worked in a machine shop built his wife (my cousin) a dresser. It was beautiful! Fantastic work, detail in it. Being a machinist he measured to the thousands of an inch, and the damn drawers never would open right.
Measure twice, cut three times, throw it all out and start over. Best to never measure in the first place if you don't have to. Trying to be too precise leads to tolerance creep as the number of pieces goes up that you are trying to cut in advance.
Hey Stumpy, Those of us who can do. All those who complain are the people who can't and think they have the right to teach us how to do our job.
You are excellent at explaining. What a skill.
You always make a lot of sense, why this beginner keep coming back to your videos.
You had me at “… as if it were a much more stable material like… a good hard cheese”! 😂
Beautiful, well organised shop. Must be a pleasure to work there.
It is!
I have been wood working all my life. I am 80 now and still like your shows.
Being trained in the metal industry, it is impossible for me to be deliberately inaccurate when working with wood. I once worked with a carpenter and he laughed at me, but when we compared at the end of the job, my work was the one that required the least corrections and rework. I love my calipers.
Magical things happen when ornery machinists give woodworking a go lol
Same here. In a metal shop 0.0625in is a mile. Doesn't matter that I don't absolutely need to be so precise, but years of making parts with +-0.001in tolerances makes it impossible for me to think in 1/16ths of an inch
In the last chapter of “Fields of Home”, Ralph Moody describes helping build an addition on his grandfather's barn.
At no point was a ruler using standard units used.
No, a “story pole” was made by scribing measurements taken directly from the existing barn, and other measurements added proportionally. Every piece of the barn from the foundation to the timbers to the roof to the windows was built off of that story pole, with nary an inch or millimeter anywhere in sight.
I've built woodworking projects without using a ruler, measuring only against the project itself. It's liberating.
Dude speaks truth. No matter how accurately you measure, the width of the pencil line, the saw's roughness and sawing technique count for more, against sanding it smooth after and allowing for error. The accuracy comes from practice, not the measurement scale. And you can always eyeball exactly halfway between a 16th or a mm if you really want to.
Wonderful video on practical woodworking.