Another all killer no filler video. And I suspect some explanations for some sub-par results I've had in the winter here when my kitchen is 6-8C, not 28, and the rise/rest can be a day each in ambient temp. Wonderful, thank you!
Another great video Professor! Seraphine. Using your tried and true shokupan recipes, I've been experimenting with replacing 5-10% of the bread flour with potato starch. This appears to work really well and effectively produce an even softer crumb. I'm very interested to hear your opinion; possibly through one your thorough experiments and explanations. Thank you.
Great scientific analysis. I'm sure your dad is proud of you. I wonder how your findings can be applied to dough for hand pulled noodles, a subject presently on my topic list.
It should be essentially the same thing, given that the dough is made of wheat flour and water, so you could definitely apply most of this knowledge :)
Great series Seraphine. I hope this can extend to enriched doughs too as im having trouble with as soon as I add sugar (very slowly) to my dough with medium gluten development it starts breaking down and loses all the development. Should sugar be added earlier in the process or even later? Is it the sugar grabbing too much water from the rest of the dough...
As far as I've seen, sugar doesn't typically cause gluten breakdown in that sense, and especially not if it happens that quickly. If you're seeing that kind of breakdown, then one possibility could be that the dough simply needs more mixing time to incorporate the sugar. If that still doesn't work, then it could either be over mixing, the dough was mixed for too long before adding the sugar, or a problem with the recipe. Too much fat can result in a very weak dough which can also contribute to this problem.
@@NovitaListyani Yeah it has been hard for me to diagnose the problem. Im having the breakdown problem even before adding the butter or egg yolk, which i add last. I am doing 15% sugar and 15% butter, 55% water. I tried two different sugar brands to make sure nothing else was mixed in it, also tried two different flour batches. Its a hot country (brazil) so I mix the dough for 5 min then rest it in the fridge for ~20 min and repeat a few times, otherwise the dough gets to 28c easily even if i start with cold water. Im avoiding hand kneading because it warms it even more due to body temperature. I really dont know what is causing this. When I use the same flour to make a 75% hydration lean dough it works perfectly fine, with a good window pane, as soon as try making an enriched dough and add sugar to it, any type of sugar, even slowly, it breaks all the gluten down and doesnt reform
Hmm, in that case, since you mentioned hot weather, the problem might be related to the yeast/overfermentation. You also mentioned multiple breaks in between mixing, I think it's best to avoid this as the yeast will continue to ferment the dough in the fridge and that may cause excessive gluten breakdown. You could also try to use ice water instead of just cold water. If it's absolutely impossible to keep the dough cool in the mixer, then it may be a good idea to simply mix the dough to a smooth consistency, before putting it in the fridge to rest. Giving it one break like this instead of multiple breaks between mixing as you attempted would reduce the overall fermentation time while keeping the dough cool. After this break, you can do some stretch and folds/hand kneading to build the gluten strength later on.
@NovitaListyani It couldnt be fermentation because i put very very little yeast early, specially since I like doing 2 day cold fermentations its barely a pinch of yeast, also no preferments. I will try to give the dough only one break instead of multiple ones but it might be impossible in 32c+ weather. Still I have 0 issue with making lean dough, just cant make any with sugar.. Its driving me insane. The national flour I use is very elastic, with a 420 w and very elastic p/l above 1, one last thing i can try is to buy a more extensible italian flour with a lower p/l. Thanks for your help and time though
Ah, it seems like there's a lot going on then, it definitely sounds like it's related to excessive protein breakdown due to proteases though, which doesn't necessarily need a large amount of yeast, especially if there are multiple days of fermentation. Without the full details, it's hard to tell exactly. Good luck solving it!
Dough mixing development and resting times for different bread types vary, one suspects. Developing the “right” dough for making the Italian-style bread “panettone” at a home kitchen has resulted unsuccessful. Use all-purpose flour with a 11-13% protein content and have used 70-80% hydration rates. I add salt all the butter once the dough gluten networks is developed. The resulting dough is not elastic/stretchable as shown by expert artisan bread specialist in different presentations. Five presentations suggest preparing a preferment and then two extra doughs before all three are combined into one. Common feature in all presentations? Very long period of different machine mixing speeds at different dough development stages. Any suggestions? Thank you.
I have yet to do much experimentation with panettone but given that panettone is very close to a cake and has a sizable amount of butter, it seems crucial to strengthen the gluten. Salt should be added to the flour early, and it may be a good idea to mix liquids into the dough gradually or maybe add flour into the mixing bowl gradually, as this could improve the dough's properties. It's also important to make sure the timing of fermentation is right, and if none of the above work, it might be a good idea to try a stronger bread flour since there can be big differences in individual flours. Happy baking!
@ You have provided a few insights worth trying. I enjoy watching your scientific presentations on bread flour components and how these can be manipulated in “myriad of ways” for obtaining different end results in baked products. I tried baking saltine crackers at home. I had to do much trial and error (eighteen different trials). Nope. Checking on a cereal chemistry college text, I found that the dough composition AND its proper lamination are key to obtaining a descent homemade product. Have tried a few times with “panettone”… Have to go through “the Wright brothers trials”. Otherwise, the thing is not going to take off the ground. Novita, thank you for your suggestions.
Is it really worth not adding butter before the first knead? I’ve seen you do it but when I do it, it seems hard on the knead machine motor to not have butter in the first place which reduces motor life I think. Not sure if it’s worth it. I use the sana machine with stainless steel loaf pan.
Good question! Actually the science doesn't really support the idea of delaying the addition of fat in most cases, I do it mostly out of habit, to look at the consistency and make sure the dough is developing properly.
I just noticed that you're using a bread machine, which is quite different from the stand mixer I'm using. As different mixers have different results and requirements, it's probably best to follow the machine's guidelines.
Hi,i have a question. How to calculate hydration in a dough? I mean do we consider eggs and water from other ingredients like in butter and include them in the total hydration precentage? And same about fat
Yes, all liquid and fat ingredients with water content are included in hydration calculation. Take a look at the description of this video: ua-cam.com/video/qdOHmdTTs24/v-deo.html There's an explanation on hydration calculation.
I wish I understood myself as well as you understand the microscopic world of gluten. I'm out here just tossing ingredients in the mixer all willy nilly, to make the house smell nice, and leaving floury handprints on my partners butt. I'm not sure I'll ever comprehend your explanations, but we'll try.
Dough mixing development and resting times for different bread types vary, one suspects. Developing the “right” dough for making the Italian-style bread “panettone” at a home kitchen has resulted unsuccessful. Use all-purpose flour with a 11-13% protein content and have used 70-80% hydration rates. I add salt all the butter once the dough gluten networks is developed. The resulting dough is not elastic/stretchable as shown by expert artisan bread specialist in different presentations. Five presentations suggest preparing a preferment and then two extra doughs before all three are combined into one. Common feature in all presentations? Very long period of different machine mixing speeds at different dough development stages. Lord, is it that complicated?
Another all killer no filler video. And I suspect some explanations for some sub-par results I've had in the winter here when my kitchen is 6-8C, not 28, and the rise/rest can be a day each in ambient temp. Wonderful, thank you!
Thanks!
WOW : ) You 'know' Dough !!! ...
Thank-you - I learned LOTS from your Video : )
Much Appreciated & Have a Great Weekend !
Thanks! You too, have a great weekend!
Another great video Professor! Seraphine. Using your tried and true shokupan recipes, I've been experimenting with replacing 5-10% of the bread flour with potato starch. This appears to work really well and effectively produce an even softer crumb. I'm very interested to hear your opinion; possibly through one your thorough experiments and explanations. Thank you.
Great scientific analysis. I'm sure your dad is proud of you.
I wonder how your findings can be applied to dough for hand pulled noodles, a subject presently on my topic list.
It should be essentially the same thing, given that the dough is made of wheat flour and water, so you could definitely apply most of this knowledge :)
Have a good weekend from Japan🍞
Thanks! You too!
Thanks for this informative videos
Thanks for watching!
Great series Seraphine. I hope this can extend to enriched doughs too as im having trouble with as soon as I add sugar (very slowly) to my dough with medium gluten development it starts breaking down and loses all the development. Should sugar be added earlier in the process or even later? Is it the sugar grabbing too much water from the rest of the dough...
As far as I've seen, sugar doesn't typically cause gluten breakdown in that sense, and especially not if it happens that quickly. If you're seeing that kind of breakdown, then one possibility could be that the dough simply needs more mixing time to incorporate the sugar. If that still doesn't work, then it could either be over mixing, the dough was mixed for too long before adding the sugar, or a problem with the recipe. Too much fat can result in a very weak dough which can also contribute to this problem.
@@NovitaListyani Yeah it has been hard for me to diagnose the problem. Im having the breakdown problem even before adding the butter or egg yolk, which i add last. I am doing 15% sugar and 15% butter, 55% water. I tried two different sugar brands to make sure nothing else was mixed in it, also tried two different flour batches. Its a hot country (brazil) so I mix the dough for 5 min then rest it in the fridge for ~20 min and repeat a few times, otherwise the dough gets to 28c easily even if i start with cold water. Im avoiding hand kneading because it warms it even more due to body temperature. I really dont know what is causing this. When I use the same flour to make a 75% hydration lean dough it works perfectly fine, with a good window pane, as soon as try making an enriched dough and add sugar to it, any type of sugar, even slowly, it breaks all the gluten down and doesnt reform
Hmm, in that case, since you mentioned hot weather, the problem might be related to the yeast/overfermentation. You also mentioned multiple breaks in between mixing, I think it's best to avoid this as the yeast will continue to ferment the dough in the fridge and that may cause excessive gluten breakdown. You could also try to use ice water instead of just cold water. If it's absolutely impossible to keep the dough cool in the mixer, then it may be a good idea to simply mix the dough to a smooth consistency, before putting it in the fridge to rest. Giving it one break like this instead of multiple breaks between mixing as you attempted would reduce the overall fermentation time while keeping the dough cool. After this break, you can do some stretch and folds/hand kneading to build the gluten strength later on.
@NovitaListyani It couldnt be fermentation because i put very very little yeast early, specially since I like doing 2 day cold fermentations its barely a pinch of yeast, also no preferments. I will try to give the dough only one break instead of multiple ones but it might be impossible in 32c+ weather. Still I have 0 issue with making lean dough, just cant make any with sugar.. Its driving me insane. The national flour I use is very elastic, with a 420 w and very elastic p/l above 1, one last thing i can try is to buy a more extensible italian flour with a lower p/l. Thanks for your help and time though
Ah, it seems like there's a lot going on then, it definitely sounds like it's related to excessive protein breakdown due to proteases though, which doesn't necessarily need a large amount of yeast, especially if there are multiple days of fermentation. Without the full details, it's hard to tell exactly. Good luck solving it!
Dough mixing development and resting times for different bread types vary, one suspects. Developing the “right” dough for making the Italian-style bread “panettone” at a home kitchen has resulted unsuccessful. Use all-purpose flour with a 11-13% protein content and have used 70-80% hydration rates. I add salt all the butter once the dough gluten networks is developed. The resulting dough is not elastic/stretchable as shown by expert artisan bread specialist in different presentations. Five presentations suggest preparing a preferment and then two extra doughs before all three are combined into one. Common feature in all presentations? Very long period of different machine mixing speeds at different dough development stages. Any suggestions? Thank you.
I have yet to do much experimentation with panettone but given that panettone is very close to a cake and has a sizable amount of butter, it seems crucial to strengthen the gluten. Salt should be added to the flour early, and it may be a good idea to mix liquids into the dough gradually or maybe add flour into the mixing bowl gradually, as this could improve the dough's properties. It's also important to make sure the timing of fermentation is right, and if none of the above work, it might be a good idea to try a stronger bread flour since there can be big differences in individual flours. Happy baking!
@ You have provided a few insights worth trying. I enjoy watching your scientific presentations on bread flour components and how these can be manipulated in “myriad of ways” for obtaining different end results in baked products. I tried baking saltine crackers at home. I had to do much trial and error (eighteen different trials). Nope. Checking on a cereal chemistry college text, I found that the dough composition AND its proper lamination are key to obtaining a descent homemade product. Have tried a few times with “panettone”… Have to go through “the Wright brothers trials”. Otherwise, the thing is not going to take off the ground. Novita, thank you for your suggestions.
Is it really worth not adding butter before the first knead? I’ve seen you do it but when I do it, it seems hard on the knead machine motor to not have butter in the first place which reduces motor life I think. Not sure if it’s worth it.
I use the sana machine with stainless steel loaf pan.
Good question! Actually the science doesn't really support the idea of delaying the addition of fat in most cases, I do it mostly out of habit, to look at the consistency and make sure the dough is developing properly.
I just noticed that you're using a bread machine, which is quite different from the stand mixer I'm using. As different mixers have different results and requirements, it's probably best to follow the machine's guidelines.
@@NovitaListyani Thanks for sharing your knowledge! Our daughter eats better because of your support.
Hi,i have a question. How to calculate hydration in a dough? I mean do we consider eggs and water from other ingredients like in butter and include them in the total hydration precentage? And same about fat
Yes, all liquid and fat ingredients with water content are included in hydration calculation. Take a look at the description of this video: ua-cam.com/video/qdOHmdTTs24/v-deo.html
There's an explanation on hydration calculation.
I wish I understood myself as well as you understand the microscopic world of gluten. I'm out here just tossing ingredients in the mixer all willy nilly, to make the house smell nice, and leaving floury handprints on my partners butt. I'm not sure I'll ever comprehend your explanations, but we'll try.
Thanks for watching!
Dough mixing development and resting times for different bread types vary, one suspects. Developing the “right” dough for making the Italian-style bread “panettone” at a home kitchen has resulted unsuccessful. Use all-purpose flour with a 11-13% protein content and have used 70-80% hydration rates. I add salt all the butter once the dough gluten networks is developed. The resulting dough is not elastic/stretchable as shown by expert artisan bread specialist in different presentations. Five presentations suggest preparing a preferment and then two extra doughs before all three are combined into one. Common feature in all presentations? Very long period of different machine mixing speeds at different dough development stages. Lord, is it that complicated?