This is brilliant. You cut right through all of the misconceptions at the very beginning. As a learning baker I happen to be very interested in the spectrum of methods used, and find that a lot of words are bandied about without people understanding the reason for a certain method or choice. Thank you for the excellent information!
Have to point out that 1 cup water per 1 cup flour is a 2:1 ratio by weight. Maybe the original Japanese yudane was measured by volume not weight, and this created confusion later in transfer and translation. "Mix equal amounts of water and flour" is ambiguously 1:1 or 2:1.
Wonderful presentation you are a natural Also you simplified it perfectly The one thing missing was the exact amount of yudane added to make the softest bread with the highest stability during baking I am training people in over 50 countries breads and pastries and have to say , you are one of the best
Thank you for the kind comment! The amount of tangzhong/yudane to use is something we cover in several other videos on this channel. After all, the amount of gelatinized starch to use does depend on the desired results, so it does require a more detailed look :)
Excellent video. I like the scientific perspective. The 1:5 ratio is a practical rule of thumb. The justification is that having much more water in the roux, home bakers manage to avoid burning starch😂. The other reason is that more water in the Tangzhong makes the dough more pliable and manageable (e.g. less sticky) that is particullary usefull for hand kneading. I did my first Hokaido bread yesterday using 5% Tangzhong in 1:6 ratio. I was amazed with the softness, fluffines and extreme rising i got. Congrats for the content.
That settles that! I couldn’t imagine a better presentation or argument in support of your opinion. I don’t believe I’ve ever received so much pertinent information on a subject of my interest ,from a single source, in such a short time,……ever! Thanks so much.
This video is amazing and exactly what I needed. I was having issues with the 1 to 5 ratio, plus the extra step of cooking the roux. I'm looking forward to using Yudane instead, as it looks easier and most consistent.
The thesis of 柯玉文 「湯種添加量與熟成條件對麵包品質之影響」 actually predated many great Japanese papers on Yudane, unfortunately not much credit has been given to it, I hope this video of mine places the honor where it should be.
I've taken to using Yudane in my breadmaker bread. I'm not sure if it makes a huge difference, but I'm also using milk as my main liquid so the boiling water in the Yudane counteracts the fridge-cold of the milk and that's handy. I tried 1:1 and it was a nightmare. I;m now using 1:2, which is far better in terms of mixing the flour.
This is brilliantly conveyed. I so wish you would have addressed the role of added fat or sugar to the Yudane. Also, how using sourdough starter affects the outcome, as we typically use that to make yudane to avoid discarding anything.
@@AQILABDUL51 Di video ini dan video tentatng Tangzhong/Yudane sebelumnya ( ua-cam.com/video/a2Bhe16kvCI/v-deo.html ) ada subtitle bahasa Indonesianya, tinggal dinyalain saja.
This is one of the best researched and informative UA-cam videos I have ever come across. Clear, precise, specific, to the point, AND helpful. ... Whoooaaaaa ... ;-)
Hi Novita. I still haven't figured out how to calculate the hydration. Should I add the water to the yudane, plus the fat, and the eggs (if the recipe calls for it), plus the rest of the water until I reach the desired percentage? I've tried adapting recipes several times, but it seems that the final result of the dough is either too sticky or too hard. If you could be so kind as to explain to me which ingredients go into the calculation for a hydration of 70%, I would be very grateful. Thank you in advance.
I am trying to find more videos but living in the far north of canada does only allow us very limited internet access Any ideas what timeframe to watch ???
I saw an article where the chef recommended the tangzhong method for cinnamon rolls and conchas but the yudane method for sliced bread because (according to him) the yudane method produced tighter bread crumb while the tangzhong mwthod produced lighter, fluffier results. Now I'm curious of a side by side.
Thank you so much for your explanation. The ratio makes everything simpler for bread making. I've been looking for this for a long while. One question though. Do you have a few tips for making tangzhong for other flour? ie. GF bread made with oat flour or rice mixture flour.
I've been making your tangzhong + poolish recipe fairly frequently for a few weeks now, and I didn't think it could be improved much at all. I'll have to try adjusting the ratio of the tangzhong to see if it's even better!
It's huge, that's why we make this video. More videos to come on 20% Tangzhong/Yudane, we are currently experimenting on lean dough with tangzhong/Yudane 😀 very happy with the results, and healthier too.
About 87% of milk is water, and about less than 4% is fat. Fat interferes with gluten development. When you take a portion of flour out for Tangzhong/Yudane, you are left with less protein in the final dough for gluten development, that is the major part to consider. As for the Tangzhong/Yudane, the same amount of milk for the same amount of water will make a little less gelatinized starch because fat also interferes with starch gelatinization but due to its small percentage in the milk, overall we still end up with roughly the same Tangzhong/Yudane.
Definitely a lot of talking but very informative😊. And I really appreciate. And that answers the question I have about the 1:5 ratio. Thank you😘 you are so bright❣️
I found this out experimenting with oat flour in my wheat breads-I made a 1:4 tang zhong of pure oats, which comprised 25% of my flour, resulting in 100% hydration. Needed more bran or higher gluten or something. My height also suffered, but I would sooner blame my dough strength than the tang zhong. Great flavor, though.
Dang I learned a lot from this method from both videos. Thanks. I have been making my brioche breads with the tax, method but now I definitely see my mistakes in using it. Will definitely work on improving my recipes after this!
Thank you so much to this video 👏I love making bread and this is bring me to science of bread making. Keep to make video like this because I love bread science. Good job 👍
I liked to use more water because it helps me to mix the Yudane with the rest of the water instead of adding it to the solid dough. It's better mixed this way. But that was because I thought 10% was the maximum amount of flour in the Yudane. Now I have to rethink everything... Thank you.
There absolutely is an ease-of-use aspect to going with the higher water ratio and slightly different technique of a tangzhong over a yudane. In the past, I have used the 1:5 ratio, mixed my flour and water with a whisk, and then heated it in the microwave for about a minute (or until it reaches the desired temperature). At that point, it's gelatinized and very easy to handle. I'll cool it down and then add it to the rest of my dough. Makes my workflow very easy. Of course, that really only works up to about 10% of flour as explained in the video. I'll have to experiment with what increasing the amount of gelatinized starch beyond those 10% does to my recipes. One recipe that I am trying to perfect uses bread flour, whole wheat, and rye in roughly equal parts, give or take. I am still trying to understand which type flour should go into the tangzhong. Last time that I baked this bread, I used the whole wheat flour for the tangzhong. The results were definitely along the lines of what I expected. But I guess I can experiment with alternatives and see what effect it has on the baked bread.
@@gutschke I've tried with 20% and for me the gluten network is not strong enough and it end up broken and like a small rock. What makes a bread fluffy for me is the egg not the cooked flour. Apart from that I don't like the smell and flavor the yudane/tangzhong give to the bread. I've made one without eggs to be sure it's not the problem and yes, what I don't like is the cooked flour. For me I prefer without any at all. But I understand the benefits and it's a good idea for sure. Good luck and enjoy your experiments.
@@lucym8562yeah I agree with you about the smell of tangzhong. It smells like homemade glue to me. That’s why I make tangzhong at 6% flour, 1:5 ratio, and cook it in the pot. The soft gel consistency is so much easier to use. Tangzhong makes the dough knead and shape like a low hydration dough and yet it is a high hydration dough. Yudane at 1:1-2 ratio using the hot water method results in a hard mixture and smells like glue too. Will need to let it rest for a long period to make it softer before use. That is why I prefer tangzhong for the ease of use and quicker process.
Hi! I just encountered you Sourdough Shokupan video and got caught by the explanation of Yudane/Tangzhong haha I wanted to ask why you don't use milk for making the roux used on the Shokupan. Thanks in advance :D
No pensaría esta excelente presentación viene con falla alguna. Argumentos convincentes basados en trabajos de investigación exhaustivos de laboratorio meticulosamente ejecutados dan luz verde a la sugerencia Ud. pone sobre la mesa: Emplear una proporción harina:agua para el tangzhong como ha sugerido en lugar del popular y sustancialmente diluido pero no cuestionado por panaderos artesanales caseros. Insuperable presentación. ¡Bravo!
This is an amazing video. In Chad Robertson's Bread Book. He uses around 10% of the flour weight for what he calls a scald. He mixes the flour and water in a pan then heats the paste until at least 72 degrees (which happens to be the temp you showed as 100% generalization). He uses a 1:2 ratio for most flours but 1:3 for rye. Have found that different grains require a different ratio? Would that change for fresh milled flour?
For gelatinization to happen the starch has to be in excess water, as explained in the video. Different flours contain different amounts of starch, protein etc., also, different constituents in the flour absorb water differently, so, it makes sense to adjust the flour to water ratio differently. ua-cam.com/video/hc8AiEc63bM/v-deo.html
Not too scientific, but I have tried sclading rye with a 1:2 flour to water ratio. After stirring on medium heat for 2 mins, the mixture turned into a VERY firm gel in 2 seconds, because rye absorbs a lot of water. Impossible to stir effectively after this happened. I probably couldnt scrape out like 10-20% of the scald from the pan. Eventually ended up boiling extra water in the pot that was coated with firm rye scald and scraping that out and mixing with the rest of the scald, bringing up the ratio to 1:3, and my more recent rye scalds follow this, and now its looser and easier to work with.
Your review on the use of Tangzhong/Yudane is perfect and very scientific, I learned a lot from you. Still I have a question, if the main purpose of using both ingredients is to add STARCH to the duff, is it possible to use corn starch instead and if so what is the best percent of corn starch to use? Thank you for the video and another thank for answering my question.
Yes, absolutely, as for the specific details, it's rather different from wheat starch, and a little bit too complex to put into a comment, we will try to do a video someday.
Just watched your other videos on youdane/tangzhong and sourdough, great in-depth explanation with scientific references. One question though, can the water used in 1:5 tangzhang subtract from the main dough mixture so the hydration in final dough maintain at desired level?
We don't recommend using Tangzhong 1:5 anymore, watch this video for why, if you still want to use it, yes, there's no need to add any additional water, just subtract the amount from the final dough.
Nope, that's not needed, just prepare it the way Yudane is typically made. Use a small wooden rolling pin or a heat resistant silicon spatula, mix boiling water and flour, it takes just a few minutes and it's done.
I love these kinds of videos 🥰🥰 That would happen if I added vital gluten to the dough to compensate the loss of gluten from the tangzhong/yudane? Thankyou!
I originally found your channel because I was making Bika Ambon. But your knowledge on bread making has now taken me to many more videos beyond Bika Ambon. (The Bika ambon was delicious also).
Thank you for the information, so glad i found your videos. I've been struggling to succeed with the Tangzhong method since I've been following the common 1:5 ratio. I'm definitely going to try a lower ratio now that I know im not breaking the "rules". Another question I've had is how quickly can either of the Tangzhong or Yudane be used once prepared. I keep seeing Tangzhong can be used immediately once cooled, but Yudane needs at least 4 to 8 hours if not more until it can be used.... Your videos have made me question everything I thought I learned! Thanks again
Thank you for your comment. To answer your question: first of all, you can call it tangzhong, yudane, water roux, or anything, they are the same thing under different name. Without any sound scientific facts to back up, sometimes people make up all the variations to suit whatever they think it is. Having said that, once you've made your tangzhong/yudane it's best to use it after you give it a rest overnight. There are many physicochemical reactions going on when you make a tangzhong/yudane, one of the most important things are starch gelatinization. Given them an overnight rest in the fridge at 4°C, a temperature known to accelerate retrogradation, this will bring the most of their benefits out for our bread, it makes the bread sweeter with natural umami that many people like. In many of our videos we discuss this and many other facts about tangzhong/yudane, you may want to watch them.
hi sister, your video is very interesting. Can you explain me how is the different between them two especially for pre baking process preparation. I mean i got information that stated yudane must refrigerated at least minimum 8 hours. What about the tanzhong? Can i cut off the preparing time? :D And do you have any idea to cut it off sister? thanks alot
It would be cool to see a video that combines tangzhong/yudane and wholewheat bread! Would be interesting to see if you can reduce the density by the tangzhong/yudane method.
i have just started making bread with Tangzhong the recipe called for all purpose flour and it turned out great, i then tried same recipe but with bread flour, which was heavy and dense. i have been very spoilt with a local bakery who makes the softest loaf. i am trying to replicate it. any ideas?
Without knowing the specific recipe, we're not sure if we can give you any useful tips. There are many ingredients that can contribute to a softer bread including ingredients that contain fat; butter, milk, eggs. To a certain degree, Tangzhong helps in that aspect. Switching from all purpose to bread flour will probably result in the dough requiring a higher hydration due to the stronger flour being used. That may be the issue that you are facing.
in one of the recipes that i use, it uses milk and no water. when making the tangzhong, would making it be the same with milk as opposed to using just water? if so, Do i deduct the total milk in the recipe from the water that i use? thank you
Making a tangzhong with milk would be roughly the same as using water, except for the fact that you don't want to bring the milk to a boil, so you might have to mix it with the flour faster due to the lower temperature. Milk is also only around 87% water, so to maintain the hydration of the recipe, you would calculate the amount of water in the milk and subtract that from the final dough.
@@NovitaListyani "Milk is also only around 87% water, so to maintain the hydration of the recipe, you would calculate the amount of water in the milk and subtract that from the final dough." could you elaborate on this part? Thank you
for example lets say the recipe calls for 480g flour & 240g milk. ill use 15% for the tangzhong: 72g flour, 144g milk. since im using milk, ill take 87% from the remaining recipe 96g x 0.87 = 96 - ~12.58g would be the remaining milk to the final recipe ?
I have been looking for more info on tangzhong without doing the research myself 😂 thank you for doing the research! I want to develop bread recipe with longer shelf life without using any additives. Looking forward to more video on this subject!
If the percentage of flour you use for tangzhong/yudane is above 10%, leaving it overnight will make it sweeter with a stronger natural aroma, this has to do with the retrogradation process that it went through as explained in the video. In our previous video, we tried many samples with the percentages of flour used by all of them being less than 10%, after an overnight rest in the fridge, they didn't show much difference in taste, aroma or flavor.
Help! I heated 100 grams of water and 50 grams of flour to 65 degrees C and ended up with a solid mass that I couldn't get out of the pan. At 17:56 in the video you show a liquid. Mine was closer to that before I heated it. Please help me understand because my 2:1 is unusable.
Congratulations on your channel and the way you teach the Tangzhong technique. I've used it a few times but I have a question, it's about the amount of water used in the bread recipe. I read an article on the website about a flour called King Arthur and in this article they talk about the ideal hydration for bread with tangzhong which would be 75%. They test the same recipe, one maintaining 68% hydration without adding tangzhong, another increasing hydration to 75% without tangzhong and the last increasing hydration to 75% with the use of tangzong. If I'm not mistaken, it has something to do with the amount of water that reduces when preparing the tangzhong and that increasing the hydration of a recipe to 75% if it is below this percentage, there is a balance of water that evaporates in the tangzhong, thus preventing it from the dough becomes dry. Could you tell me if this is true? What would be the ideal hydration percentage of a bread recipe using tangzong made in a 1:2 ratio? If you could answer, I would be very grateful. Greetings from Brazil
They are similar but not exactly the same. 烫面, for example when used in 烫面蒸饺, is more focused on the denaturation of protein, so its objective is to make the dough softer, while the 汤种 method of bread making is more about the gelatinization of starch. In practice, when making 饺子 you see the ratio of flour to water goes from 2:1 to 1:1 to moderate the skin texture of the 饺子, while in 汤种, the flour to water ratio goes from 1:1 to 1:5 (this latter one is kind of a bad idea as we mentioned in this video), the objective is to make a natural sweet, soft and high water content bread that can stay fresh and last longer. I hope this explanation helps.
Thank you for the excellent explanation! qq. how do I calculate baker's percentage when I want to add egg and butter into the recipe? will that affect liquid percentage?
The water content of eggs and butter are around 76% and 17% respectively, in the original recipe these numbers would have been compensated for, I assume. If you change your recipe to Tangzhong/Yudane just make sure to deduct the amount of flour and water that you plan to use for the Tangzhong/Yudane from the final dough.
I know you probably won't read this but my question is. So instead if a recipe called for 2 cups of milk 1 cup of flour Does the starter take place of this ?
Yes you can do that, for the percentage, use about 10% of the total flour for tangzhong with water at about twice the amount of the flour used for tangzhong.
I don't have a video on that yet, but there's an experiment done by a group of Taiwanese students many years ago with very detailed descriptions here: www.ntsec.edu.tw/Science-Content.aspx?cat=&a=0&fld=&key=&isd=1&icop=10&p=261&sid=5681
Hi, I went through your older video "Asian-style Bread Recipe Using Tangzhong", which you presented methods and ingredients of making Tangzhong. Your presentation here is completely different than the older video. Does it mean the older video should be superseded? Also, if I want to add sugar, milk powder, butter and egg to the dough, can I use same percentage as you mentioned in the older video? Thank you!
If you have a working recipe with ingredients such as sugar, milk powder, butter or egg just use them as is, just remember to deduct the amount of flour and water used for Tangzhong from the final dough. As of the release of this video, we have stopped using Tangzhong 1:5. That being said, our older video recipes using the 1:5 ratio are still perfectly fine, as they still make delicious and longer lasting breads, so that's why we've left the videos be.
Wow, that's an in-depth video. Thanks for the effort. Can I use starch gelatinisation for crusty rolls? I've seen people say Yudane/Tangzhong methods are generally for softer breads but I am wondering about the crusty rolls and crusty baguettes I can get at my supermarket - they have a very small, tight crumb but the crust is very crusty. I know french style baguettes are often more open crumbed and chewier but the baguettes in my supermarket have a really nice soft, fluffy interior like it was made with Yudane or Tangzhong method whilst the crust is very crusty and also chewy. So far I've only done soft tangzhong rolls enriched with egg, milk and butter which obviously makes the crust soft. I'm thinking I can try using Yudane but not use eggs/milk/butter and maybe achieve that crusty/crispy crust whilst maintaining a fluffy interior. What do you think? Or should I be keeping one or two of the enrichments? Which enrichment contributes the most in terms of resulting in a soft crust? Egg? Milk or butter/oil?
I was uncertain how to pronounce tangzhong , but after the many times you say tangzhong , I got it down perfectly ! if you ever have a giveaway, a good skill testing question would be, How many times did i say tangzhong and yudane in this video,
Thank you! An absolutely great job on research & presentation. I appreciate you explaining the science. 👍👏👏👏 You've got me convinced to try 1:2 Yudane method for my breads. I've been making Kristina Cho's milk bread using 1:5 Tangzhong method per her recipe. I'm curious to see the difference in the results, including shelf life ,when I switch to 1:2 Yudane. BTW, I've just become a new subscriber to your channel. Looking forward to watching more of your videos and trying some of your more recent recipes.
Hi Seraphine, out of topic, I'm currently passionate about shokupan. I'm curious, why sometimes people divide the dough by 3, then roll and sometimes people not divided it, just 1 big roll... What the difference?
I am curious to see the results that you'll come up with. I have a bread that uses bread flour, whole wheat, and rye. And I'd love to hear your take on which of these should be used for the yudane.
This is absolutely amazing information! It changes everything that I was told about this process, and makes it simpler to adjust my existing formulas. I would be curious if either of these methods would work with sourdough bread, as there is such a long fermentation period.
This is brilliant. You cut right through all of the misconceptions at the very beginning. As a learning baker I happen to be very interested in the spectrum of methods used, and find that a lot of words are bandied about without people understanding the reason for a certain method or choice. Thank you for the excellent information!
Have to point out that 1 cup water per 1 cup flour is a 2:1 ratio by weight. Maybe the original Japanese yudane was measured by volume not weight, and this created confusion later in transfer and translation. "Mix equal amounts of water and flour" is ambiguously 1:1 or 2:1.
Wonderful presentation you are a natural
Also you simplified it perfectly
The one thing missing was the exact amount of yudane added to make the softest bread with the highest stability during baking
I am training people in over 50 countries breads and pastries and have to say , you are one of the best
Thank you for the kind comment! The amount of tangzhong/yudane to use is something we cover in several other videos on this channel. After all, the amount of gelatinized starch to use does depend on the desired results, so it does require a more detailed look :)
Wow! This is excellence works with academic and real life sample. Thank you so much Novita.
Wow this is one of the most in-depth videos/blog posts on tangzhong/yudane I’ve seen. Subscribed!
Thanks!
Excellent video. I like the scientific perspective. The 1:5 ratio is a practical rule of thumb. The justification is that having much more water in the roux, home bakers manage to avoid burning starch😂. The other reason is that more water in the Tangzhong makes the dough more pliable and manageable (e.g. less sticky) that is particullary usefull for hand kneading. I did my first Hokaido bread yesterday using 5% Tangzhong in 1:6 ratio. I was amazed with the softness, fluffines and extreme rising i got. Congrats for the content.
That settles that! I couldn’t imagine a better presentation or argument in support of your opinion.
I don’t believe I’ve ever received so much pertinent information on a subject of my interest ,from a single source, in such a short time,……ever! Thanks so much.
Thank you so much for your kind words!
I cannot over state how incredible the research and presentation is here. This video could have been a dissertation.
This video is amazing and exactly what I needed. I was having issues with the 1 to 5 ratio, plus the extra step of cooking the roux. I'm looking forward to using Yudane instead, as it looks easier and most consistent.
But don’t forget. That first thing is also a Yudane… just wetter :)
True... I lost my patience cooking the roux... With added worries that I would burn the roux in the bottom.
Thanks!
Thank you very much 🙏
Very well explained video!
Thanks for sharing your knowledge about Tangzhong and Yudane method in bread making with us.
Amazing video again. As a Taiwanese, i never noticed that there are some people doing baking research so well.
The thesis of 柯玉文 「湯種添加量與熟成條件對麵包品質之影響」 actually predated many great Japanese papers on Yudane, unfortunately not much credit has been given to it, I hope this video of mine places the honor where it should be.
I've taken to using Yudane in my breadmaker bread. I'm not sure if it makes a huge difference, but I'm also using milk as my main liquid so the boiling water in the Yudane counteracts the fridge-cold of the milk and that's handy.
I tried 1:1 and it was a nightmare. I;m now using 1:2, which is far better in terms of mixing the flour.
A very enlightening and laborious work. Thanks
This is brilliantly conveyed. I so wish you would have addressed the role of added fat or sugar to the Yudane. Also, how using sourdough starter affects the outcome, as we typically use that to make yudane to avoid discarding anything.
Wonderfull content. With your videos i Discovery myself doing yudane wrong, without the gelatin aspect. Thank you very much!
Amazing. I thought I was going mad. Thank you soooooo much. I can't wait for the follow-up video. Great job.
Selamat sore kak , terimakasih sharing nya sukses selalu
Terima Kasih juga
bisa jelaskan sedikit tentang tangzhong ke dalam bahasa indonesia?
@@AQILABDUL51 Di video ini dan video tentatng Tangzhong/Yudane sebelumnya ( ua-cam.com/video/a2Bhe16kvCI/v-deo.html ) ada subtitle bahasa Indonesianya, tinggal dinyalain saja.
This is one of the best researched and informative UA-cam videos I have ever come across. Clear, precise, specific, to the point, AND helpful. ... Whoooaaaaa ... ;-)
Thank you for your kind comment 🙏
Amazing! You left, almost no stone unturned. Good job👍 I might try making it again😃
Holy cow. You’re very thorough. Thank you for the awesome and informative presentation.
My pleasure!
Hi Novita. I still haven't figured out how to calculate the hydration. Should I add the water to the yudane, plus the fat, and the eggs (if the recipe calls for it), plus the rest of the water until I reach the desired percentage? I've tried adapting recipes several times, but it seems that the final result of the dough is either too sticky or too hard. If you could be so kind as to explain to me which ingredients go into the calculation for a hydration of 70%, I would be very grateful. Thank you in advance.
I am trying to find more videos but living in the far north of canada does only allow us very limited internet access
Any ideas what timeframe to watch ???
I saw an article where the chef recommended the tangzhong method for cinnamon rolls and conchas but the yudane method for sliced bread because (according to him) the yudane method produced tighter bread crumb while the tangzhong mwthod produced lighter, fluffier results. Now I'm curious of a side by side.
bruh, tangzhong and yudane are the same as discussed in the video. They differ only as to percentage ratio.
Thank you so much for your explanation. The ratio makes everything simpler for bread making. I've been looking for this for a long while. One question though. Do you have a few tips for making tangzhong for other flour? ie. GF bread made with oat flour or rice mixture flour.
I've been making your tangzhong + poolish recipe fairly frequently for a few weeks now, and I didn't think it could be improved much at all. I'll have to try adjusting the ratio of the tangzhong to see if it's even better!
It's huge, that's why we make this video. More videos to come on 20% Tangzhong/Yudane, we are currently experimenting on lean dough with tangzhong/Yudane 😀 very happy with the results, and healthier too.
So glad I caught this video! I was ready to finally try this the next time I made bread and your advice is much appreciated.
Glad it was helpful!
The videos are really good. Thanks for this one. It was very helpful. Any difference from water to milk.
About 87% of milk is water, and about less than 4% is fat. Fat interferes with gluten development. When you take a portion of flour out for Tangzhong/Yudane, you are left with less protein in the final dough for gluten development, that is the major part to consider. As for the Tangzhong/Yudane, the same amount of milk for the same amount of water will make a little less gelatinized starch because fat also interferes with starch gelatinization but due to its small percentage in the milk, overall we still end up with roughly the same Tangzhong/Yudane.
@@NovitaListyaniwow.. thankbyou so much for answering my question. You are amazing. Thank you again.
Definitely a lot of talking but very informative😊. And I really appreciate. And that answers the question I have about the 1:5 ratio. Thank you😘 you are so bright❣️
I found this out experimenting with oat flour in my wheat breads-I made a 1:4 tang zhong of pure oats, which comprised 25% of my flour, resulting in 100% hydration. Needed more bran or higher gluten or something. My height also suffered, but I would sooner blame my dough strength than the tang zhong. Great flavor, though.
Sounds great! Oats do have lots of starch.
Dang I learned a lot from this method from both videos. Thanks. I have been making my brioche breads with the tax, method but now I definitely see my mistakes in using it. Will definitely work on improving my recipes after this!
An amazing video!
Very helpful and informative. I can't imagine the amount of work put into this video!
Thanks a lot ♥
🙏 thank you too
Thank you so much! Excellent explanation! ❤
Hi. I wonder if tangzhong works the same if we use sourdough starter instead of yeast
This is the clearest video about thangzong and yudane I've ever seen
Your video is amazing 😮 I was studying about this topic for whole flour and finded your video, I'm really surprised
Glad it was helpful! For whole-wheat flour, you may find this video interesting: ua-cam.com/video/Pf5HSzBK6zo/v-deo.html
I just love watching your videos ❤️ also learning about bread 🍞🙂
Thank you so much to this video 👏I love making bread and this is bring me to science of bread making. Keep to make video like this because I love bread science. Good job 👍
Thanks... Totally informative
Nice research 😍, thank you. Please talk about pros & cons on how much tangzhong used. Eg. 20% vs 30% vs 40% 🙏🏻👍🏻🙏🏻
Thank you for the suggestion 🙏
I liked to use more water because it helps me to mix the Yudane with the rest of the water instead of adding it to the solid dough. It's better mixed this way. But that was because I thought 10% was the maximum amount of flour in the Yudane. Now I have to rethink everything... Thank you.
There absolutely is an ease-of-use aspect to going with the higher water ratio and slightly different technique of a tangzhong over a yudane. In the past, I have used the 1:5 ratio, mixed my flour and water with a whisk, and then heated it in the microwave for about a minute (or until it reaches the desired temperature). At that point, it's gelatinized and very easy to handle. I'll cool it down and then add it to the rest of my dough. Makes my workflow very easy. Of course, that really only works up to about 10% of flour as explained in the video.
I'll have to experiment with what increasing the amount of gelatinized starch beyond those 10% does to my recipes. One recipe that I am trying to perfect uses bread flour, whole wheat, and rye in roughly equal parts, give or take. I am still trying to understand which type flour should go into the tangzhong. Last time that I baked this bread, I used the whole wheat flour for the tangzhong. The results were definitely along the lines of what I expected. But I guess I can experiment with alternatives and see what effect it has on the baked bread.
@@gutschke I've tried with 20% and for me the gluten network is not strong enough and it end up broken and like a small rock. What makes a bread fluffy for me is the egg not the cooked flour. Apart from that I don't like the smell and flavor the yudane/tangzhong give to the bread. I've made one without eggs to be sure it's not the problem and yes, what I don't like is the cooked flour. For me I prefer without any at all. But I understand the benefits and it's a good idea for sure.
Good luck and enjoy your experiments.
P.S. By the way I use mainly egg whites. I think yolks add more eggy flavour.
@@lucym8562yeah I agree with you about the smell of tangzhong. It smells like homemade glue to me. That’s why I make tangzhong at 6% flour, 1:5 ratio, and cook it in the pot. The soft gel consistency is so much easier to use. Tangzhong makes the dough knead and shape like a low hydration dough and yet it is a high hydration dough. Yudane at 1:1-2 ratio using the hot water method results in a hard mixture and smells like glue too. Will need to let it rest for a long period to make it softer before use. That is why I prefer tangzhong for the ease of use and quicker process.
You are my spirit animal. I can't believe I only now just found your channel
Instant sub, great content. As an avid baker and a doctor this video felt custom made for me.
Hi! I just encountered you Sourdough Shokupan video and got caught by the explanation of Yudane/Tangzhong haha I wanted to ask why you don't use milk for making the roux used on the Shokupan. Thanks in advance :D
The video that keeps on giving!!! Mind blowing content, then got to read the comments and it goes and on and on... love it. Thank you!!! Subscribed ;)
So nice of you! Thank you!
No pensaría esta excelente presentación viene con falla alguna. Argumentos convincentes basados en trabajos de investigación exhaustivos de laboratorio meticulosamente ejecutados dan luz verde a la sugerencia Ud. pone sobre la mesa: Emplear una proporción harina:agua para el tangzhong como ha sugerido en lugar del popular y sustancialmente diluido pero no cuestionado por panaderos artesanales caseros. Insuperable presentación. ¡Bravo!
This is an amazing video. In Chad Robertson's Bread Book. He uses around 10% of the flour weight for what he calls a scald. He mixes the flour and water in a pan then heats the paste until at least 72 degrees (which happens to be the temp you showed as 100% generalization). He uses a 1:2 ratio for most flours but 1:3 for rye. Have found that different grains require a different ratio? Would that change for fresh milled flour?
For gelatinization to happen the starch has to be in excess water, as explained in the video. Different flours contain different amounts of starch, protein etc., also, different constituents in the flour absorb water differently, so, it makes sense to adjust the flour to water ratio differently. ua-cam.com/video/hc8AiEc63bM/v-deo.html
Not too scientific, but I have tried sclading rye with a 1:2 flour to water ratio. After stirring on medium heat for 2 mins, the mixture turned into a VERY firm gel in 2 seconds, because rye absorbs a lot of water. Impossible to stir effectively after this happened. I probably couldnt scrape out like 10-20% of the scald from the pan. Eventually ended up boiling extra water in the pot that was coated with firm rye scald and scraping that out and mixing with the rest of the scald, bringing up the ratio to 1:3, and my more recent rye scalds follow this, and now its looser and easier to work with.
Very useful info,they you very much have a nice new year
Thanks, you too!
Wow ! Thank you for such an Excellent Video on this subject !!! Much Appreciated, I have Subbed : )
Thanks for the sub!
great video!! I love how you cite research papers for the points you make
Entonces la mejor opcion es 1 parte de harina y 2 partes de agua ?
eso es para fines prácticos, puede usar 1: 1, 2: 3, 1: 2, etc.
@@NovitaListyani puedo hacerlo con harina integral ?
por supuesto que sí, ua-cam.com/video/FVE0zv6nam4/v-deo.html
Your videos are so well done!!
Your review on the use of Tangzhong/Yudane is perfect and very scientific, I learned a lot from you. Still I have a question, if the main purpose of using both ingredients is to add STARCH to the duff, is it possible to use corn starch instead and if so what is the best percent of corn starch to use? Thank you for the video and another thank for answering my question.
Yes, absolutely, as for the specific details, it's rather different from wheat starch, and a little bit too complex to put into a comment, we will try to do a video someday.
Just watched your other videos on youdane/tangzhong and sourdough, great in-depth explanation with scientific references. One question though, can the water used in 1:5 tangzhang subtract from the main dough mixture so the hydration in final dough maintain at desired level?
We don't recommend using Tangzhong 1:5 anymore, watch this video for why, if you still want to use it, yes, there's no need to add any additional water, just subtract the amount from the final dough.
Grazie, video molto utile, un saluto da un italiano appassionato
thanks it works 1:2 ratio,
but sometimes i use 1:5 for some different bread
great video, very useful
1:2 tanzhong, do I still prepare it using pan with fire?
Nope, that's not needed, just prepare it the way Yudane is typically made. Use a small wooden rolling pin or a heat resistant silicon spatula, mix boiling water and flour, it takes just a few minutes and it's done.
Thanks for the fast reply. Will try prepare 1:2 and use it same day and kept one overnight.
Luckily I never heard of the 1:5 ratio. I have only used Yudane. Your video is well done and interesting. Thank you.
I love these kinds of videos 🥰🥰 That would happen if I added vital gluten to the dough to compensate the loss of gluten from the tangzhong/yudane?
Thankyou!
Great idea!! In the right proportion, vital gluten will be good for the dough.
Wow, thank you so much for this research. I love it. So helpful.
Yummy yummy host thank you
I originally found your channel because I was making Bika Ambon. But your knowledge on bread making has now taken me to many more videos beyond Bika Ambon. (The Bika ambon was delicious also).
Thank you for the information, so glad i found your videos. I've been struggling to succeed with the Tangzhong method since I've been following the common 1:5 ratio. I'm definitely going to try a lower ratio now that I know im not breaking the "rules". Another question I've had is how quickly can either of the Tangzhong or Yudane be used once prepared. I keep seeing Tangzhong can be used immediately once cooled, but Yudane needs at least 4 to 8 hours if not more until it can be used.... Your videos have made me question everything I thought I learned! Thanks again
Thank you for your comment. To answer your question: first of all, you can call it tangzhong, yudane, water roux, or anything, they are the same thing under different name. Without any sound scientific facts to back up, sometimes people make up all the variations to suit whatever they think it is. Having said that, once you've made your tangzhong/yudane it's best to use it after you give it a rest overnight. There are many physicochemical reactions going on when you make a tangzhong/yudane, one of the most important things are starch gelatinization. Given them an overnight rest in the fridge at 4°C, a temperature known to accelerate retrogradation, this will bring the most of their benefits out for our bread, it makes the bread sweeter with natural umami that many people like. In many of our videos we discuss this and many other facts about tangzhong/yudane, you may want to watch them.
@@NovitaListyani Thank you so much for the clarification--definitely going to continue to binge your other videos :)
hi sister, your video is very interesting. Can you explain me how is the different between them two especially for pre baking process preparation. I mean i got information that stated yudane must refrigerated at least minimum 8 hours. What about the tanzhong? Can i cut off the preparing time? :D And do you have any idea to cut it off sister? thanks alot
You may want to watch this: ua-cam.com/video/DjQ7EtvzK_w/v-deo.html
Do you think that cooked rice could be blended and used as Yudane or Tangzhong??
Yes
🤯🤯🤯 This is SO exciting!! We have leftover rice a lot and I would Love to utilize it as Tangzhong. Thank you so much!!!
how do feel about using sweet rice instead of wheat? if the gluten is getting denatured anyway...
in my country we don't have bread flour, can I use all-purpose flour to make Tangzhong?
if you are converting from an existing recipe using all-purpose flour, yes, you can use all-purpose flour for Tangzhong/Yudane.
It would be cool to see a video that combines tangzhong/yudane and wholewheat bread! Would be interesting to see if you can reduce the density by the tangzhong/yudane method.
Thanks for the suggestion 🙏
A search for "Lithuanian scalded rye" bread will point you in the right direction. It's a method that has existed in Europe as well for a long time.
i have just started making bread with Tangzhong the recipe called for all purpose flour and it turned out great, i then tried same recipe but with bread flour, which was heavy and dense.
i have been very spoilt with a local bakery who makes the softest loaf. i am trying to replicate it. any ideas?
Without knowing the specific recipe, we're not sure if we can give you any useful tips. There are many ingredients that can contribute to a softer bread including ingredients that contain fat; butter, milk, eggs. To a certain degree, Tangzhong helps in that aspect. Switching from all purpose to bread flour will probably result in the dough requiring a higher hydration due to the stronger flour being used. That may be the issue that you are facing.
in one of the recipes that i use, it uses milk and no water. when making the tangzhong, would making it be the same with milk as opposed to using just water? if so, Do i deduct the total milk in the recipe from the water that i use? thank you
Making a tangzhong with milk would be roughly the same as using water, except for the fact that you don't want to bring the milk to a boil, so you might have to mix it with the flour faster due to the lower temperature. Milk is also only around 87% water, so to maintain the hydration of the recipe, you would calculate the amount of water in the milk and subtract that from the final dough.
@@NovitaListyani "Milk is also only around 87% water, so to maintain the hydration of the recipe, you would calculate the amount of water in the milk and subtract that from the final dough."
could you elaborate on this part? Thank you
for example lets say the recipe calls for 480g flour & 240g milk. ill use 15% for the tangzhong: 72g flour, 144g milk. since im using milk, ill take 87% from the remaining recipe 96g x 0.87 = 96 - ~12.58g would be the remaining milk to the final recipe ?
No, it's not that complicated. If you use 144g of milk for your Tangzhong then use the rest 96g for the final dough.
@@NovitaListyani Lol thank you for the clarification!! you are awesome!
I have been looking for more info on tangzhong without doing the research myself 😂 thank you for doing the research! I want to develop bread recipe with longer shelf life without using any additives. Looking forward to more video on this subject!
No problem!! We are working on a new video, hope to release it soon :)
hi sister, can i use white glutten for thangzhong? i mean to subtitute bread flour for making thanzong miss?
Super helpful insight in these 2 bread techniques. Yudane is the key for a great results at the end ⭐️
Would you be able to use this starter right away? Or do you have to let it chill for a few hours/overnight in the fridge?
If the percentage of flour you use for tangzhong/yudane is above 10%, leaving it overnight will make it sweeter with a stronger natural aroma, this has to do with the retrogradation process that it went through as explained in the video. In our previous video, we tried many samples with the percentages of flour used by all of them being less than 10%, after an overnight rest in the fridge, they didn't show much difference in taste, aroma or flavor.
@@NovitaListyani Ah I see. Thank you!
Help! I heated 100 grams of water and 50 grams of flour to 65 degrees C and ended up with a solid mass that I couldn't get out of the pan. At 17:56 in the video you show a liquid. Mine was closer to that before I heated it. Please help me understand because my 2:1 is unusable.
15:16
Congratulations on your channel and the way you teach the Tangzhong technique. I've used it a few times but I have a question, it's about the amount of water used in the bread recipe.
I read an article on the website about a flour called King Arthur and in this article they talk about the ideal hydration for bread with tangzhong which would be 75%. They test the same recipe, one maintaining 68% hydration without adding tangzhong, another increasing hydration to 75% without tangzhong and the last increasing hydration to 75% with the use of tangzong.
If I'm not mistaken, it has something to do with the amount of water that reduces when preparing the tangzhong and that increasing the hydration of a recipe to 75% if it is below this percentage, there is a balance of water that evaporates in the tangzhong, thus preventing it from the dough becomes dry.
Could you tell me if this is true? What would be the ideal hydration percentage of a bread recipe using tangzong made in a 1:2 ratio? If you could answer, I would be very grateful. Greetings from Brazil
ua-cam.com/video/Wz0PiKOWY1g/v-deo.html
@@NovitaListyani Thank you very much!
Am planning to put up a bakery. I needs more info.about baking. What your vlog miss here in Barcelona Spain.
Wow thanks for the explainer and for sharing much data : )
Excellent video. Is this the same concept as 烫面 method found in chinese cooking?
They are similar but not exactly the same. 烫面, for example when used in 烫面蒸饺, is more focused on the denaturation of protein, so its objective is to make the dough softer, while the 汤种 method of bread making is more about the gelatinization of starch. In practice, when making 饺子 you see the ratio of flour to water goes from 2:1 to 1:1 to moderate the skin texture of the 饺子, while in 汤种, the flour to water ratio goes from 1:1 to 1:5 (this latter one is kind of a bad idea as we mentioned in this video), the objective is to make a natural sweet, soft and high water content bread that can stay fresh and last longer. I hope this explanation helps.
Thank you for the excellent explanation! qq. how do I calculate baker's percentage when I want to add egg and butter into the recipe? will that affect liquid percentage?
The water content of eggs and butter are around 76% and 17% respectively, in the original recipe these numbers would have been compensated for, I assume. If you change your recipe to Tangzhong/Yudane just make sure to deduct the amount of flour and water that you plan to use for the Tangzhong/Yudane from the final dough.
@@NovitaListyani got it. you are so helpful. Thanks again!
I know you probably won't read this but my question is. So instead if a recipe called for
2 cups of milk
1 cup of flour
Does the starter take place of this ?
Hi. Can I use tang zhong for make baozi and mantou?
Yes, you can do that.
Can I use tang zhong for make steambread. How quantity have to use? Thanks
Yes you can do that, for the percentage, use about 10% of the total flour for tangzhong with water at about twice the amount of the flour used for tangzhong.
@@NovitaListyani Do you have a video where using tang zhong in steam bread? Thanks
I don't have a video on that yet, but there's an experiment done by a group of Taiwanese students many years ago with very detailed descriptions here: www.ntsec.edu.tw/Science-Content.aspx?cat=&a=0&fld=&key=&isd=1&icop=10&p=261&sid=5681
Hi, I went through your older video "Asian-style Bread Recipe Using Tangzhong", which you presented methods and ingredients of making Tangzhong. Your presentation here is completely different than the older video. Does it mean the older video should be superseded? Also, if I want to add sugar, milk powder, butter and egg to the dough, can I use same percentage as you mentioned in the older video? Thank you!
If you have a working recipe with ingredients such as sugar, milk powder, butter or egg just use them as is, just remember to deduct the amount of flour and water used for Tangzhong from the final dough.
As of the release of this video, we have stopped using Tangzhong 1:5. That being said, our older video recipes using the 1:5 ratio are still perfectly fine, as they still make delicious and longer lasting breads, so that's why we've left the videos be.
Wow, that's an in-depth video. Thanks for the effort.
Can I use starch gelatinisation for crusty rolls? I've seen people say Yudane/Tangzhong methods are generally for softer breads but I am wondering about the crusty rolls and crusty baguettes I can get at my supermarket - they have a very small, tight crumb but the crust is very crusty. I know french style baguettes are often more open crumbed and chewier but the baguettes in my supermarket have a really nice soft, fluffy interior like it was made with Yudane or Tangzhong method whilst the crust is very crusty and also chewy. So far I've only done soft tangzhong rolls enriched with egg, milk and butter which obviously makes the crust soft. I'm thinking I can try using Yudane but not use eggs/milk/butter and maybe achieve that crusty/crispy crust whilst maintaining a fluffy interior. What do you think? Or should I be keeping one or two of the enrichments? Which enrichment contributes the most in terms of resulting in a soft crust? Egg? Milk or butter/oil?
You may want to watch our latest videos about baguettes and pizzas with Yudane/Tangzhong. The relevant information there may be of interest to you.
can I use whole milk instead of water to make the Yudane ?
Yes, you can use whole milk.
Eating is an easy task. But it's a lot of work to make. I still focus on eating.
Haha, but bread baking can be fun too :)
haha allow me to join u! 😆😆😆
😂
Thanks you. Have a good weekend from Japan!
I thought you are Japanese.. ?🤔
I was uncertain how to pronounce tangzhong , but after the many times you say tangzhong , I got it down perfectly !
if you ever have a giveaway, a good skill testing question would be, How many times did i say tangzhong and yudane in this video,
😊😂😊
Thank you! An absolutely great job on research & presentation. I appreciate you explaining the science. 👍👏👏👏
You've got me convinced to try 1:2 Yudane method for my breads. I've been making Kristina Cho's milk bread using 1:5 Tangzhong method per her recipe. I'm curious to see the difference in the results, including shelf life ,when I switch to 1:2 Yudane.
BTW, I've just become a new subscriber to your channel. Looking forward to watching more of your videos and trying some of your more recent recipes.
Thanks! There shouldn't be any difference between the two :)
Amazing scientific explanation!! Will keep watching this tangzhong investigation 😃
Thanks 🙏
Hi Seraphine, out of topic, I'm currently passionate about shokupan. I'm curious, why sometimes people divide the dough by 3, then roll and sometimes people not divided it, just 1 big roll... What the difference?
more dough pieces, when placed properly, will give better rise
I’m reminded that bread making is first a science before an art. Thanks very enlightening 😊
Can we apply this for bao dough?
Wow keren banget videonya!! Terima kasih info nya
Terimakasih 🙏
So would you say an acceptable standard is to have a 10% Yudane, then increase water for the dough by 2% ?
Thanks Novita for such punctual delivery of the subject .. have you tried whole wheat in so , and what are the outcome, if so ?
We did some experiments with whole wheat before, will make a video of it someday, thank you for your kind comment 🙏
I am curious to see the results that you'll come up with. I have a bread that uses bread flour, whole wheat, and rye. And I'd love to hear your take on which of these should be used for the yudane.
You are not only a baker. But also a researcher ✨
I think you should make research paper about your experiments.
Best video talking about Tangzhong/Yudane in youtube.
Thanks!
You read everywhere that tz method 'purpose is to put more water into the dough, to get a fluffy bread. Is it not true?
This is absolutely amazing information! It changes everything that I was told about this process, and makes it simpler to adjust my existing formulas. I would be curious if either of these methods would work with sourdough bread, as there is such a long fermentation period.
Thanks! FYI, two of our latest videos address using tangzhong in sourdough recipes.
Ok, so I will be calling it "Tang-Dane" or "Yu-Zhong" from now on... and will use a 20-30% ratio. Great info, as always... thank you!
Perfect! You have just coined two terms for the new era :)