Historic religious testimony | Fred - Florida | Talk Heathen 03.44 with Eric Murphy & Vi La Bianca
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- Опубліковано 5 лис 2019
- Talk Heathen 03.44 for November 3, 2019 with Eric Murphy & Vi La Bianca.
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Talk Heathen is a weekly call-in television show in Austin, Texas geared toward long-form and on-going dialogue with theists & atheists about religion, theism, & secularism. Talk Heathen is produced by the Atheist Community of Austin.
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We define atheism as the lack of belief in gods. This definition also encompasses what most people call agnosticism.
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I am an atheist, and I have had a spontaneous remission if cancer. I have passed my five year anniversary. I wish I could present myself personally to Fred to show him that such " miracles" happen outside if the church.
Awesome, glad to hear that you are tougher than cancer so far!
I have survived cancer also and it really pisses me off when a doctor who has dedicated his life and spent many many years studying medicine in order to fight cancer. Saves the patient only to have someone say.... You can thank god for saving your life. Some people are so religiously brainwashed.
@@geoffmower8729 Exactly. They also tend to discredit their own achievements too saying things like "I quit drugs because of God." I mean take credit for the things you accomplished and give credit to those who have accomplished.
Cancer survivor here as well 😉 You can find this caller in the comment sections of a great many atheist videos under the name shonkee gogo. He isn't hard to find.
Fred would probably not believe u.
Former cocaine addict here. No spirituality of any kind ; I just decided to quit, for the good of myself and everyone around me. No god, no supernatural anything ; just common sense and logic defeating short-sighted, selfish desire.The strength is there, in everyone.
I was an active addict for many years. I went to several drug rehab facilities and eventually went to a 12 step program that claimed to accept members who were non-religious but they wanted you to find a High Power. This HP didn't have to be the Christian God. but some God was pushed. I did try to find a "God" higher power. I found that I just could put any stock into "faith" I was willing to "fake it until I make it." But that ended up with just getting some years clean until I could think straight and I realized that I was afraid of almost everything and drugs made those fears manageable. It was only then I realized most of my fears started because of religion. I was taught by religion a definition of what a man should be and I didn't fit that definition. I was handsome enough, smart enough, sports-minded enough, tough enough what a man was supposed to be it wasn't me. I was baptized at 14 and confirmed to the Luthern faith the next week and I never went back because I just didn't believe, but I couldn't escape those early fears. I was over 50 before I got clean and I am just now at 73 beginning to deal with all those fears.
@Complex Neurophys. Damage, inability to restore new name troll but still an ashole.
The thing is that the caller seems to think AA doesn't have testimonies of consistent success, but I'm pretty sure they do and it's not Jesus by necessity that helps people overcome their addiction. It could be the Force from Star Wars for all we know that helped someone get over cocaine or the like, nothing Christian about that (though George Lucas might think so?)
Peter Smafield Sounds like you are just what a man should be to me. Very interesting story. Keep up the good work , best wishes and good luck man.
Peter Smafield : support your local dealer .
ToHoldNothing: I think it is the person who is helping themselves and then giving an invisible entity the credit, which is what Christianity teaches, to give god all the credit for everything in their lives.
Eric and Vi are my favorite duo to watch. Friendly, professional and well informed.
I dropped 30 years of addiction to alchohol and cannabis without struggle,i simply became weary of the up and down cycle of getting high and the subsequent lows,i never spent a second asking for help from any "god" and have had no desire to use intoxicants for over a decade,yet i know several A.A members who have struggled for years to stop their addictions despite their reliance/dependency on "a higher power" to change their behavior and yet remain addicted.
I'm glad even religious people are questioning. That's a good start.
I had a moderate Ischemic left brain Paretial Lobe stroke 15 months ago. I am an atheist. I have made amazing strides in my recovery, rehabilitation and reintegration journey. I did not pray or seek guidance from a "super natural force"
Between the excellent in hospital care, my rehabilitation therapy, and a stubborn attitude.
I am the driving power in my experience. Yet I have seen Christians after a similar experience almost give up as their prayers go unanswered.
Me to..... History.
"You're looking at what people do, I'm looking at who they are."
Oh? And what magical means are you determining who a person is, if not by what they do?
Stealing their drivers license
Poor Fred doesn’t understand the world very well.
Kieron Had to turn the video off after Fred said "Ya Know" 32 times in 3 minutes!
What I'm finding more interesting than the lack of confirmed miracles is the lack of claims of miracles. Nobody is claiming to walk on water. Very few people are claiming to regrow a limb. The majority of claims are about overcoming addiction or feeling a change of heart. Why is that??
@Austin Mark
The miracles also seem awfully dependent upon the person getting the miracle... wanting to quit their addiction.
Nobody is fiercely addicted to meth and just wakes up the next day without it.
@Austin Mark
This is what I'm talking about, though. All the miracles people are claiming nowadays are extremely mundane. It's like someone saying they have a superpower, but turns out it's that they can wiggle their ears.
@Austin Mark I actually would be impressed by that
AGrayPhantom Good point man! Yeah now that you mention it I don't recall anyone transmuting water into wine or copying and pasting loaves of bread into reality or flying around on horses with wings either. When a Christian gets cancer or looses a limb what part of a miracle is that? Maybe things like that never happen to "true" Christians but it seems to me that God is doing a hell of a job of impersonating nothing.
@Austin Mark I understand you were playing devil's advocate, so this argument is directed at you, but I do understand you weren't actually "making" it.
Isn't it funny how god gets the praise, and none of the fallout? Someone beats addiction "god be praised" someone dies because of their addiction, "they failed." It's really easy to see miracles that "god is performing" when you have the benefit of rationalization.
If someone beats addiction, christians praise god after the fact, for the work that person did, and the control they took back from their addiction. People don't pray for someone to grow a limb back, they pray that god will help that person adjust to the new reality they have of being without that limb. It's hedging the bets in favor of gods miracles, changing the definition depending on if it's possible naturally or not.
Miracles are easy to put in the hands of a non existent being, if they are something nature does constantly. An addict getting clean and fighting the good fight to a natural death of old age with their children, is not a miracle, it is a human being with incredible strength fighting for what they want, and not what they're addicted to.
Just started watching the channel, Eric's voice is so soft and soothing. Keep up the good work!
Once again, I’ve quit a ten year long heroin addiction and didn’t use religion to do it Wait a minute he’s saying I could’ve prayed harder and it would’ve been easier for me to get clean? No struggle? Less pain and tears and vomit?! Kind of makes all my effort to change myself feel somewhat cheapened.
Of course , God gets credit for everything.
I overcame a smoking addiction, alcohol addiction and weed addiction (yes kids, weed addiction actually exists contrary to popular misconception, I've been treated for it in a rehab center). I got addicted to all these things while being a Christian, I overcame them while being an atheïst. What now Fred?
@Richard Ball You couldn't be further from the truth. If I'm honest I really can't be arsed to have this debate again because the internet is full of selfproclaimed experts who've read this somewhere some day and took it for granted. I'd highly recommend you to not throw around this internet 'knowledge' and actually speak to professionals on the subject some time because the spreading of exactly that misconception is what gets an entire generation addicted to that crap.
When I do a wrong thing, I have no forgiveness, I have no-one to make it right for me - I have to take care of both those things myself and that tends to take far more effort than not doing the wrong thing in the first place. "Whoops, my bad" is the first thing I do on the subject, not the last.
"You know what I'm saying?"
"yeah the no-true scotsman..."
lol
😆😆😆😆😆
This guy is like listening to an obnoxious 8-year-old ramble on about the magnificence of his favourite superhero.
There are millions of people who would testify that they have Mohammed in them. Are they also correct?
well, there sure are plenty of underage islam girls that claim they have mohammed in them... ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
@@ralfhaggstrom9862 Yes, ALL theists are wackos including Christians.
@@ralfhaggstrom9862 I agree. I just don't understand how theists ignore reality.
I think they'd just say God/Allah changed their lives after they submitted to the revelations through God's prophets, including Mohammed, but also Jesus, etc
@@ToHoldNothing So Christians would have to admit that if their reasoning proved their god was real, then it also proves Mohamed is real...and Vishnu...and Odin...and Zeus..and.....
My previous church is a Calvary chapel church. Is there anyone in here that can clarify what Eric was referring to? Seriously need to know this....
I love watching this channel. Being from a country where you are an Atheist by default, I always find it interesting listening to these Christians and their ways of justifying believing in their god. I mean, any Muslim would use the same fallocies. Their specific god has always made miracles and can heal people and is of course the "one true god". It's almost 2020. How are people still believing in these ancient gods?
@@redeemedone8553 How can you be sure that Jesus did that and not some other factor?
@@redeemedone8553 I did the same thing for 25 years, but nothing happened.
@@redeemedone8553 Not many people are religious in my country, but I grew up in church, being the son of a pastor. I was a devoted Christian for many years, but never experienced anything Godly.
@@redeemedone8553 I studied Theology for 4 years, read the Bible 10 times. Prayed more than you will ever do in your lifetime. Are you trying the No True Scotsman fallocy on me? I can assure you that I've spend thousands of hours more than you in prayer and Bible study. All that doesn't prove the existence of a deity though. A Christian is simply someone who confesses to believe in Christ, which I did..
@@redeemedone8553 I thought I already answered your question?! Ask me again then.. You have edited some of your comments, so not sure what you are asking.
Fred said "all people are capable of showing the fruits of the spirit", so, Fred, as Eric asked you "how do you tell a born-again christian from anyone else?
Fred would do awesome in bizaro world because his backpedaling is superb
so he's speaking specifically about his christian god. says it all for me.
I love the BCU (bible comics universe) so full of fantasy
I wonder if Fred could point out any church members who were cured of a missing limb.
These people would be able to point at themselves......
With their newly grown limbs
😄
@@kenbee1957 Yes, they would be able to do many things with their new limbs, and imagine what they would be able to do if they got one or two extra heads, too.
I used to be miserable and depressed, but since becoming an atheist, my life has changed around.
I am now depressed and miserable.
🤣🤣🤣🤣
Millions of people throughout the world have been convinced that Popeye has a girlfriend.
Not only that, but they have testified that her name is Olive Oyl.
How could all those people be wrong ?
I'm an addict in recovery. Also an atheist. I hate AA and NA because they are so faith based. I most certainly did not need to be saved by God to overcome my addiction. Everything I did, I did on my own.
I feel so bad for people like him. He legitimately thinks he is weak and useless without his deity.
Florida. Nuff said.
I have been thinking about the "power of faith" and how can a non-believer can tap into that power. That having faith in something/anything can be a brain state that gives an inner strength and confidence.
However, if faith is the most dishonest stance a person can have then having faith in anything that results in personal power is, at minimal, self deceiving.
What is there in the secular world that can give a person strength of conviction without having to deceive ones self? I guess i am just having trouble being confidant in my own atheism and feel a missing part of me that was filled with faith, even if it is dishonest.
Who people are is what they do. Period.
No other way to see them.
I would have destroyed his argument much faster and clearly. But of course, I’m Monday night quarterbacking
You know
I've never understood why believers will blame themselves for their problems but give god the credit for overcoming those problems. Why do you never hear of a Christian saying "It is God's will that I was drug addict but i overcame it on my own."It's always "I fell from grace and sinned and used drugs but God healed/saved me." Such hogwash.
What of addictions to the supernatural ?
You know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know?
I wonder why the true god only revealed himself to the Jews.
Everybody else had false gods.
I know what his nervous tic is. You know what I mean?
I was addictided to NICOTINE! I used to smoke ~60 cigarattes a day... a doctor told me to "stop smoking" or DIE!
I "stopped smoking"!
I am still alive!
No GOD/JESUS/ALLAH/ETC intervention required!
Vi la Bianca is beautiful
Florida man strikes again
Fred seems like a nice guy. The "you know" habit is nerve grating though.
So caller is not a Christian then, as he's claiming you can see some event, such as a person recovering from addiction, but he can determine if it's natural or supernatural. Is he claiming omniscience?
How many addicts give themselves over to a higher power and still relapse.
Poor fred is in way over his head.
I am an Athiest member of AA. I don't think I am unnatural?
Honestly you guys could ask a lot better questions ...
"how do you determine the difference between a testimony that's convincing and a testimony that's not convincing?"
"You know, that's a good question. Umm, you know, for me...the Bible you know... the power of the Holy Spirit..."
Too bad this guy has no good answer.
Up to 7:30. The caller never actually answers aaaany questions. He just answers with stories 🤨
I'm planning on meeting a spirit later, so if i have a hangover tomorrow it'll be my fault.
I'm Bored Again!
And Fred, over never used drugs or smoked. I'm an athiest.
This is Fred what the hell are you talking about? Are you saying I'm stupid?
I think people should just take personal responsibility for their lives. Anything that causes you to stumble just stop!
Why would an all powerful god stop some one from drinking, but not save some child from being raped or staved to death?.
12-step programs have a dismal success rate, only about 5% succeed.
And theists have a 0% success rate in telling the truth
I'm pretty sure that people in other religions have experience of the holy spit too.
@@redeemedone8553
Ok, here goes....
Jesus, please forgive me for all my sins, especially when I stole a chocolate bar from my mother's sweet shop when I was about six years old. And please, Jesus, come into my heat.
Thank you very much. Regards, Ted
@@redeemedone8553
Jesus didn't really die.
Millions of Christians think he is still alive.
Not as spritely as he was 2000 years ago.
His great age is showing.
@@redeemedone8553
I've been told that Jesus, loves me.
Which is very odd, since I've never met the guy.
He is going to very disappointed when I meet him.
I'm not gay.
@@redeemedone8553
For those who find comfort believing that they have a friend in Jesus, good luck.
But know that he was a practicing Jew, not a Christian.
The "last supper" was a Passover meal.
Mark 14:12
@@redeemedone8553
Just out of interest, when Jesus was crucified, a superscription was placed above his head.
What was written and in what language was it written ?
Also, and more importantly, why was it written ?
From Fred's definition of "born again", there won't be many people in heaven; thereby, the devil wins.
shonkee gogo: Stop quoting bible verses as you probably have not even read the bible and, most likely, cherry pick most of them. Most christians have not read the bible either as it is a hard read. They are mostly parrots for their religion. If "broad is the way that leads to destruction and narrow is the gate that leads to life, then that would mean that more people will be in hell than heaven - the devil wins. That verse also says "destruction" which means "not existing". It doesn't say "broad is the way that leads to forever burning and torture." Read some of these bible verses while you're at it: Matthew 10: 34-37 where it says that Jesus did not come to bring peace, but a sword and that he came to cause division between families. Also, check out Ecclesiastes 3:19-21: "Surely, the fate of humans is like that of the animals; the same fatw awaits both. As one dies, so does the other. All have the same breath; humans have no advantage over animals. I guess you are okay with the bible verses that support slavery. Look it up. The bible is not a history book, but a collection of varied literary genres written by multiple authors over the span of many centuries. Most of it is embodied in the genres of narrative, poems, letters, and visionary writings. Keep it real, Shonkee Gogo. Peace to you.
SG: I don't have to ask you. You just talk and sound as though you have not read it; more or less, a parrot for your religion. Also, you made no effort to address most of my points.
shonkee gogo: You believe that a Christian is defined as following Jesus and having a "relationship" with him. However, my question is how does one have a "relationship" with an invisible being? It makes no sense. I know that Christians say that god or Jesus helps them out and blesses them when they pray. My question is why does he intervene in your life and bless you, but does not intervene in little children and babies lives who need food, shelter, medicine and are being murdered, raped, and hacked to death? Is that too much for you to answer?
shonkee gogo: Still, you have not answered and dodged my questions and points. Prove there is a "holy spirit" or a "soul". Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. What comforts me is believing that no one will be burning and tortured forever and ever and ever and ever for being human. Also, Fred, how do you tell a born-again christian from anyone else when Eric told you that all people are capable of showing the fruits of the spirit? In my opinion, atheists show these qualities more than anyone else.
shonkee: I did not read your post as it is just repetitious of what you have stated 3 times. You are incapable of answering any hard questions on what you believe and that is a shame. Either put up or shut up.
I have a test for y'all. Do you believe that spinach is good for you ?
If you do, then you are a Popeyean, if not then you are an Apopeyean.
I just wanna say that bianca is really attractive.
Like Fred, some things you should just keep to yourself.
why do most theists immediately go to a logical fallacy. and does he reject the claims of Hindus or Scientologists?
Does he realize the AA is a religious group
But fred, you were all over the map. You need god, you don’t really need god. It’s supernatural, but not really. The spirit is how you change, but not necessarily.
It was really like watching cats play ping pong. In a mirror. With strobe lights going.
@shonkee gogo c’mon Fred. Now you’re saying that “with jesus, change is a cool breeze”.
Heck, even Paul said “I die daily”.
All change from within is a bit of a struggle. Many people work on things they feel the need to change. Personality shortcomings, character flaws, etc.
these are accomplished through work, yes, but the only belief you need is that it’s possible.
Someone mentioned the story of “dumbo” and his feather. I think it’s applicable here.
If believing in christ meant ease in being a better person, we wouldn’t have a republican party. Justsayin.
@shonkee gogo you can have your “sinful nature”. That burden is yours. Not mine.
@shonkee gogo “sin” is a notion to keep humans groveling.
Human nature is human nature. Trying to make it into something evil is a bit sinister.
But, think about this, your god created you to be an unclean thing, but commands you not to be.
That’s pretty messed up.
@shonkee gogo ...that your god created.
Placibically possible Holy Spirit, omnipotent omniscient etc ,just tell me it's real. Walk strong.
The mind is a terrible thing. Shows a pic of an egg frying.
Given that the god of Israel created everything, then everything is supernatural, obviously.
There is no such thing as "natural" unless you believe that the god of Israel didn't create everything.
In some societies, they believe in a god who will help them cope with the world as they find it.
The don't believe their god created the world because, there would be no point in asking for help.
This is the biggest problem with religion. Any religion. Beating addiction is not a miracle. It's the result of an incredible human strength and possibly even some medical assistance, or psychological help. The god of christianity gets credit for what are called miracles all the time, and none of the blame for those who succumb to their addiction. How often is god blamed by a religion for someone succumbing to their addiction? Sometimes the family wakes up and realizes god could have saved their family member if it existed, but rarely do people outside of the family realize this.
It's easy to cry that god saved someone from addiction, after they beat it, and get clean. How many people pray that they will regrow limbs, and it never happens? How many people around them pray for limb regrowth, and not that they accept their new reality? Why is god deaf to the amputee desperately reaching out for a miracle, and why is their seemingly impossible prayer never answered, but the prayers of those addicted to something, are answered?
The human capability of rationalizing things that are easily explainable being done, and rationalizing away things that are impossible not being done floors me. Imagine how easy it would be for god to convince atheists it's real, without once showing itself if it just regrew a limb from time to time?
Fred talks about unprovable things, yet he fails to understand that if the magic he believes is real, then it could just as easily be expressed in provable scenarios. Growing missing limbs would be a start. Yet these theists can never bring forward anyone that has provably grown a new limb. No instances of someone who has no retina growing a retina and learning how to see. They stick to things that are invisible beneath the skin. The sort of things that no one photographs. No one can take video of the limb growing because it never happens. Instead it is always stories from far away, and in the past. The stories are elusive when it comes to proof. Things of the mind like addiction. Or someone claiming remission from cancer without producing X-rays that document the shrinking of tumors in conjunction with documented times of prayers that demonstrate a linkage.
It is so easy to prove these things if they are real, yet the Fred’s of the world just tell unprovable stories and think that testimonials are evidence of something real, when they are just stories with no more value than a fairytale until someone backs up the claim with concrete evidence. Why do they not see any need for X-rays and documentation? It is because they know deep in their heart’s that as soon as someone starts collecting actual evidence that the magic disappears. There is not a single instance of a claim about the supernatural that, when investigated using scientific criteria, has not proven to be a natural phenomena. Not one, and the Fred’s know this, and so they avoid evidence like the plague.
shonkee gogo I would love to see proof for any of those stories. You are another Fred, happy to repeat unprovable stories, but offering zero evidence. Claiming that a limb grew back is indeed valueless. Providing the documentation that it actually occurred which would include sufficient evidence that there was no limb in the first place, then the photographs, videos, and measurements conducted by an unbiased independent and trained individuals such as doctors and scientists. That kind of evidence can indeed be proof of something happening. Everything that science has discovered about the natural world since the ancient Greeks set aside the bias that used various gods as the explanations and started to use observation, experimentation, and documentation, has started out as something that has to be proven, and whenever sufficient evidence is provided, science accepts that and moves on. Since in the history of humanity, there has never been a single documented case of a supernatural miracle happening, I do not expect for you to provide any evidence. Stories in a book written after the people in the events in the book are presumably dead is not evidence of anything. Especially when the earliest writings about that religion do not mention the miracles. We cannot even be certain that someone called Jesus that the stories are based on was a real person. It is possible, but there is no real evidence of it beyond stories that contain so many contradictions that they are extremely unreliable as a source.
Even the supernatural, it it is real, is something that can be proved with evidence. If the supernatural world exists it must have physics underpinning it. It must have forces, and fields, photons, and particles. Why are there no Christian physicists hypothesising about the physics of that realm, and conducting experiments that would demonstrate that the components of that realm exist, and making mathematical models that show why these particles do not normally interact with the particles of the natural world. Just as there is experimentation searching for the elusive Dark Matter, why aren’t you guys searching for the evidence of the supernatural? You guys seem to not understand the nature of evidence because whenever asked for evidence you provide unprovable stories.
If any real evidence exists, provide it, write it up in a paper, and submit it to a scientific journal for peer review. There is a Nobel Prize awaiting anyone who offers any proof that the supernatural exists, and if it is real, then evidence will be findable. Until any evidence is provided, the most reasonable position is to not treat it as real. So, please Shonkee, provide some evidence.
shonkee gogo You need to start learning what standards of evidence actually means as part of the scientific method. If the supernatural is real then of course it would produce measurable evidence. We have evidence of lots of things that are essentially invisible and behave almost like magic, like neutrinos, and the electron. If your god can intervene in the natural world then those interventions will produce copious evidence. To suggest that a god or the supernatural is beyond investigation is the silly thing. All sorts of religious claims have been tested already, such as the effectiveness of prayer In hospital situations. When Joseph Smith claimed he had translated ancient writings with the direct help of his god, it was able to be tested in the 1960’s when those texts were discovered in a museum vault (hint - Smith didn’t know that hieroglyphics had already been deciphered at the time of his fraud, and a real translation has no resemblance to Smith’s “god assisted” translation. Oh, and prayer surprised researchers because instead of the no effect they expected, there was a tiny effect observed, although not in a good way - those who knew they were being prayed for had a slightly higher rate of mortality than those not prayed for) if the supernatural is real, then evidence will be able to be collected. But, as you and I both know, any experimentation is not likely to produce evidence favorable to your world view, so you will make the pretence that evidence cannot be found, so you will not try to find any.
Sam Bacon This guy, Sam, has passed way past the point of reason and I suggest just ignoring the provocations. We have gone to great length to describe the nature of evidence and the scumbag just ignores that and repeats the original stories. I started this process with a respectful outlining how evidence works. But all we have gotten in return is pure unadulterated ignorance. Okay, so this theist is as dishonest as all the others and thinks thar repeating a lie makes it true. There comes a time when that kind of idiocy needs to be addressed as the dishonest BS that it is and dismiss the idiot as being beneath contempt. I hope he reads this and sees that being an ignorant a** causes people to lose all respect for someone who behaves in that way. He is now just a troll in my mind and I won’t waste my precious time on him.
"Miracles" are never a good way to try and prove a god. See the thing is, even _if_ you could somehow convince people that those miracles are indeed because of a god you believe in, you then by necessity have to accept that this god of yours will happily help people overcome addictions, but is curiously silent when innocent people, children and adults both, are being raped or murdered or both around the world.
Yeah...that's either a god with very little power, or a god that no moral individual should want to _ever_ associate with. Thankfully, that's not the case. Miracles prove statistics are a thing, nothing more.
Scientists keep admitting they cannot test or explore the supernatural so if that is true then how the hell can they claim it does not exist!
Scientists generally don't claim it doesn't exist, they say there is no reason to think it does.
If you cannot test something, how can you claim that some force or thing does actually exist?
They don't. What science says about reality is far stranger than you might think
@@disenfranchisedamerican6804
...that just makes me think about that movie "Stranger Than Fiction".
Sounds familiar but I can't remember where I've heard it
@@disenfranchisedamerican6804
Years old at this point, it was one of the movies where Will Ferrell was actually decent.
Atheist callers are a complete bore.
Well Eric is on good behavior today so he let Fred voice his opinion. Of course Eric missed the boat again. We know a tree by it's fruit. It doesn't matter what religion you claim to follow or if your profess to be an atheist or if you claim to be very spiritual. In the case of Christians/Jews/Moslems, God is defined as love above all other things, and God give his holy spirit to the whole world freely. The holy spirit is defined as love, faith, hope, patience, understanding, courage, and self control. Now to say you have virtues is not quite the point because you really need to developed them. If you need more patience or understanding to solve a problem how do you get more? Fred's point is that the holy spirit proves the existence of God by definition. The holy spirit is God just as truth is God. But of course if you don't know what a person actually is you will have difficulty knowing this.
This statement doesn’t really make sense.
It’s quite circular, and not particularly accurate.
And, it would be “muslims”, unless you’re still living in 1955. 🙄
@Kit Cumbie in circles of 85 year olds.
@@barkYdarkATFB what statement is circular?
@John Daedalus wrong again, your grasping at strawsmen again. According to science, existence is a unified whole with absolute truth at it's foundation. Try understanding that without truth there is nothing. Imagine the law of identity is wrong and everything can just constantly be changing so there is no way to identify anything.
@Constructive Critique
First, saying “god is love” no matter the religion, still leaves the definition vague, or at the very least subjective.
For instance, I see love as an emotion, as most people do. We experience external stimuli, and the resulting physical response is a feeling. Sometimes mental in nature, sometimes physical. It can often provoke action, and we can say “this is done out of love”. Or “this is done with love”.
So assuming “god is love”, it doesn’t point to any deity. It points to an emotion, a feeling, or an act as a result of that emotion. Generally good and positive in nature, but not a deity.
You began by “we know a tree by it’s fruit”. And then after the god is love bit, you got to the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is technically defined as coming “from god” as a “comforter”(or advocate) that is a helper and reminder.
If you are a strict believer of the trinity, it is equal, yet distinct from the father.
The virtues you mentioned are actually the aforementioned “fruit” of the spirit. Not the spirit itself.
If you have received the spirit, then you should be one that acts from love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.
A personal aside, these are qualities I RARELY see from anyone claiming christianity. In real life, and most definitely not on any social media.
However, the circular part. The Holy Spirit doesn’t prove the existence of god. That simply tacks on one more entity that needs evidence to be believed.
You certainly cannot say that those “fruit” qualities ONLY come from the spirit.
There are myriad people that have those qualities without any belief in a deity.
And how do you gain those qualities, you ask? Practice and mindfulness. It’s not easy, you become mindful of the need to develop something, then practice and repetition until it becomes natural. This is the same process whether you think there’s a spirit involved or not.
Then the last arrow you shot was “the Holy Spirit is god just as truth is god”, which was introducing a whole new definition and argument. And meaningless.
Speaking of meaningless, that whole last comment to @John was...meaningless.
There is definitely not “according to science...” and then all that woo woo stuff you wrote.
Existence is simply the state of being.
Scientists say the Supernatural DOES NOT EXIST... what Scientists say DOES EXIST is the UNEXPLAINED.......... FFS
In reality, most say “supernatural” has not been proven.
Unexplained is just that, unexplained.
Attributing things yet unexplained to spooky, ethereal, unnatural, ghosties and what not, is a needless jump.
@@barkYdarkATFB unexplained, is supernatural... this is logical and makes sense.... the supernatural doesn't exist, never can never will the very nature of the word excludes its own existence.... it's just unexplained.
Nothing else. If you label it as supernatural, you will stop trying to explain it.......... and just go "whoooooo ".... instead of ?
@Clifton Manley you are coming across a bit scattered.
Unexplained IS supernatural, but supernatural doesn’t exist?
Just because something is unexplained, does not mean it is of “other than natural” in origin or substance.
My car tire had a gash in it last month. It was fine driving home, next morning completely flat. There was no explanation that I could find, even the tire guy couldn’t figure what had made the cut. But it certainly wasn’t supernatural..beyond natural, other worldly, from a spirit world or because of a god or anything holy.
Just unexplained.
@@barkYdarkATFB So the Sun was supernatural for a long time following your logic... maybe it was just unexplained.... is that a bit clearer? SUPERNATURAL doesnt exist......
@Clifton Manley not sure why you want to say I believe in supernatural. I do not.
I’m def done with this “conversation”
This guy was tiresome.
If all my friends were jumping off a bridge, I would too (if it was bungee jumping.)
If god wanted me to jump off a bridge he would have invented a big type of elastic band to spring me back up before I hit the ground........ wait a minute !