How to Fix a 3-Way Switch System on a 1957 House: House Renovation Time!
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- Опубліковано 9 вер 2024
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Good video and great explanation and graphic with excellent details. I really appreciate the high quality of your content!
Thanks so much Chuck, it's my pleasure!
Finally the only damn video on planet Earth that shows exactly my problem and a very detailed step by step explanation on exactly what to do. Not only was it detailed he showed the step by step every video I’ve watched never showed start to finish they would start showing but end up talking the rest of the video. Thank u Sir awesome video
You saved me a few hundred dollars by swapping out the switches myself. Great explanation with the diagram about the flow of electricity from switch to switch to the load. Thanks Bill.
I have an old house and this is the first video I’ve seen that explained how to fix it when there aren’t any red wires
I love old houses!
Excellent video as usual Bill. Thank you for all you do to enlighten (pun intended) us all with the wiring of three way switches. Cheers from Canada.
It's always good to lighten things up! (Pun intended). Thanks Gerry!
I think this has solved my mystery wiring! My house was built in 1960 and I don't see any 14-3 wires going between the switches but its worked since I started messing with it :-) Gonna take it all apart and follow your advice and cross my fingers I'll figure it out. Again... your videos are THE BEST at explaining electricity. I even sprung for some Wiha insulated drivers! Aloha!
Wow! Lived in this house for 26 years with the darn switch never working right. After your video I fixed it in 30 min! Thanks for making this!
Fantastic. Way to go!
Sparky, you’ve done it again! First you helped me correct three 3-way dimmers in my daughters 1967 house in Charleston. Today, using your video again, I was able to correct an incorrectly wired 3-way switch in my wife’s sisters 1962 built house in Michigan. It has been wrong for over 40 years! They were amazed.
Your method of identifying the hot then the traveler wires in brilliant! Thank you again.
I was taught by an old pro, so I wanted to pass these techniques on. Please pass them on as well. Great job!
I've had my own part-time handyman business for 18 years and have a good understanding of basic household wiring. I have to say that your videos have given me a greater understanding of how electrical systems work in a home. You are a great teacher.
Thanks so much!
Excellent vid Wild Bill ... Great for the young'ens as well ...
Complete with cockroach poop on the first switch. LOL! Thanks Eddy!
Thanks - Your method worked perfectly for my old early 1950s house. The 3-way switch was wired where I had to use your method to find the line, traveler, and load wires.
Thank you for your demonstration you helped me find the problem in my 1957 house!
We live in 1963 house watch your channel everytime and follow step by step for my 3way switch so confussing about Load and line but succesfully found it thank you very much to your channel.
You can do it! Thanks Rafael!
Excellent video thank you very much to show how tracking cables one to another
Thanks Victor!
I just finished my first ruff in your videos answered my questions about a couple of things about 3way switches thanks for sharing your knowledge🙏
Glad I could help!
Great video. I hate old house wiring. On my friends house he ad a leviton double switch. It had two power sources coming into the box. I watch this video twice and figured it out.
Great video, Sir. Years ago, I had the same situation in a house with knob and tube wiring. No grounding, no neutral in either box, (very old house) and no voltage detector stick! That devil took me a little while to find!
Videos like this are what make UA-cam so great! Thank you!!!
You're so welcome! Thanks!
Thanks Bill. 👍🏻
My pleasure Frank!
THIS IS GREAT. I spent hours trying to figure this on my own. THANK YOU.
Yes, it can be a very time consuming process if you don't know the procedure I showed. I do understand. I'm so glad you gave my video a chance. My pleasure and thanks!
Good morning Bill, that's a dirty switch and wiring, put some gloves on my friend😎😱😎😱😎
Gloves would be a good idea! Thanks Ted!
I replaced the 3-way switches in the hallway of my 1950 house in 1994. I put in the paddle style "Decora" like these, only they are lighted, (the paddle style had just come out back then). While connecting the wires, I discovered the 3 failure modes of a 3-way. #1. switch acts like single pole, on/off, other switch does nothing. #2. On in one location, but can only turn off at the other, and then you have to walk to other end of hall to switch on again. #3. If you are close enough to the box, you will hear the breaker click off. You just created a dead short. Back then their was no bare ground conductor included in Romex, nor did they have 3-wire (black,red,white) either, so I had White/Black/Black in each box.
Clever tip on finding which was the line wire!
Thanks!
As always brilliant description and simple explanations. Bill you are a master educator.
Thanks so much Math Man! Good to hear from you!
Thank you so much for the detailed tutorial. The switches are now working properly and you have a new subscriber. I’ve learned so much through this video.
Thanks, and welcome to Sparky Channel!
Thank you so much for this step-by-step video. I was having a heck of a time with a few 3-ways in our old Lake cottage and this helped me solve the issue!
Glad it helped!
Good job ,Thanks for the video 👍👍👍
Thanks!
Great info sir, I think I have the same system. 👍
Yes, this era of house usually has this system. Thanks!
Thank you Sir. I was trying to find a video on how to identify the hot wire. Great explanation and determining the traveler wires. Thanks again.
Glad it helped!
Ghost voltages are usually capacitive coupled in voltages. That happens when the cable is over a longer distance installed next to another cable which is still live. They can also be induced, but not on such low voltages used in domestic installations. That's for installations with voltages above 1kV. There you have to short-circuit all active wires after proving the circuit is dead, because there the ghost voltages are powerful enough to kill you.
Great video..I am working on 1960 built house and I been trying to figure out the problem for months. There i white black and red only with your use of meters and explaining the load wire i will get this fixed
Good Demonstration. Did one of those last week.
Nice work!
Love the video, very easy to understand for an amateur like me. Thanks
Glad it was helpful!
Hi Bill. Great video! Since there are many new bees watching, maybe it would be helpful to show them the older style “BX” cable wiring that has the old “cambric” cloth covered rubber insulation that crumbles apart as soon as you touch it, unlike today’s thermoplastic insulation that is found in “NM” “Romex” cable wire. Keep up the great work!!
Excellent idea! The more realistic I can make these videos the better! So many times, how to shows are made will brand new everything and it's all so easy. LOL! In reality, it can be quite different.
Thanks for this video. I have two three way switches installed in my basement but they don't work in tandem so I will try the continuity test to see if I can figure it out. One of the three way switches is a dimmer switch.
Don same thing on my switch but ill try this one
Hey Bill great video i figured the traveler's were reversed somewhere , that sometimes happens. sometimes it's easier to start over less heartache . Happy Saturday
Happy Saturday! Thanks!
Thanks 🙏
You’re welcome 😊
Great video, i'm in the same predicament
Now I have a better idea of how to fix a problem. THANKS
18:15 Like how you “fixed” the wrong wiring if the 3-way. IMO, BEST way to do a “miswire” is just undoing all the switches (or outlets, etc) and just starting over wiring up the switches. Again, imo, this is faster and spend less time trying to diagnose the wiring doing diagnostic testing etc…
AGREE WITH YOU 100% and it’s how was taught, just don’t spend the time looking for issue, undo everything and wire it up correctly; b/c 99% of the time in these cases it will SOLVE the issue (yep, that means there’s a 1% chance you have something else going on, and then your day just got a bit busier😉). See a lot of wiring like this in rentals, flips, picture perfect (what I call houses that “look good” so ppl buy them; but if look “deeper” into things…..you find some pretty bad issues/problems that usually cost you money. But, this is a story/topic for another day and vid), etc…
Bill, also like that you recommend getting the “better” switches (and I’m sure outlets as well) for the house. In some cases they don’t cost that much more, sometimes they may be a bit more…..but honestly; they SO worth the money, imo, and having peace of mind and not getting a headache for having to deal/mess with a switch later on.
Cheers✌🏻
Cheers! You're preaching to the choir brother! 1000% agree with you. So glad to hear you agree with the spec grade switches too!
Awesome video Bill...Keep up the the great videos...
When I work on old houses I often encounter really old wire that appears to be coated with tar and then covered with cloth. When touching these wires the tar insulation usually crumbles off the wire. Before touching these wires I coat them with liquid electrical tape.
Good idea, thanks!
That "tar" is a rubber insulation that was state of the art back then. Over the years it dries out and turns brittle especially in light fixtures where incandescent bulbs were used. The individual conductors were covered with a cloth covering that was painted black, red, or white. Prior to the invention of wire nuts, the splices were made then dipped in solder and covered with rubber tape for insulation then friction tape for mechanical protection.
I can't thank you enough
the previous installer just mixed up the 2 black wires. Simply looking at the romex/NM sleeves in the back of the box will confirm the problem.
Yes, that can help. Thanks!
great troubleshooting video the graphics are a great help, thanks
Thanks 👍
Me, Bill, would you kindly tell us more about the AUTO-V Loz? Please.
Good video.
Many thank you.
That's an idea for a video, thanks!
Good explanation Sparky.
Thanks Gary!
Also I would scrape the oxidation off the conductors for a better electrical connection
A little would be good. Not too much though I think.
I would have replaced everything nice neat and clean looking.
Thanks Bill!
you're up even earlier than I am.
and I thought I saw the sleeve for knob & tube in that line side box.
Yeah thought I'd get an early start. No knob and tube in this house, it's too "new" LOL!
@@SparkyChannel my brother's first house had been retrofitted to K&T.
@@kenbrown2808 Now that's an old house. :)
@@SparkyChannel he figured out why the lights were all in conduit with watertight couplings when he pulled a false ceiling and found soot stains on the original ceiling.
@@kenbrown2808 Cool!
Great video! Even I understood what you said!
Awesome! Thank you!
Thank you. I just fixed my lights in my garage using your video. That has been bugging me for over two years..
Can I ask you what a system is called that has 3 two way switches to operate hallway lights that happens to have 3 light fixtures on it. They are also not working correctly and I think using this videos lessons could help me to fix my hall lights. Just want to make sure 1st.
Excellent, way to go! That would be a 3-way switch system that controls multiple lights. Here's a video showing the wiring of multiple lights: How to Wire Multiple Lights and How To Prepare Wiring for Drywall: ua-cam.com/video/29w_SmUSb_I/v-deo.html
MX P90D. Please note: The MIDDLE switch of the three way switches MUST BE a special
switch designated for this application. The regular three way switch will not work.
CHECK THIS FIRST. Thank you.
@@tedlahm5740 Are you talking about a 4-Way switch?
@@SparkyChannel Yes, Thank you.
@@tedlahm5740 dang, I am now sure that this might be highly likely the problem. I'll need to follow up on examining that whole system very carefully.
I have 3 switches, one at front door, another at to of stairs and the last one at the end of the hall. I need to do more than hope that the power is at one end and the load is at the far end. That 4 way plug needs to be located and with luck it will be in the middle. Using the A, B, C's here locating and marking all the wires will go far in taking out the guesses. Thx
Another great Sparky vid!!!!
Thanks Britt!
Nice screwdriver!!!!!
Thanks!
Got it thank you great explanation.
Thank u sir I learned alot
Thanks, it was understandable 👍
Great to hear! Thanks!
Nice job and very clear. What about old wiring and how do you evaluate that? Also what about wire nut connections? Could you make a video about wire nuts, proper wire nut installation, wire nuts vs. Wagos/lever nuts? Not sure if you have a FLIR camera, but it would be interesting to see how warm those connections can get. It seems so simple, but I've had two projects recently where something went bad with wire nuts. Both were in commercial buildings. One was in work originally done in the mid 1970s. The other with work done in the mid-1990s. The 1970s wire nut had plastic that disintegrated as soon as I touched it...so it must have been pretty hot for some time. Just dumb luck I came across that, since I wasn't looking for problems on that circuit. The mid 1990s one, the wire nut plastic was melted away and only the metal spring remained connecting the wires together (plus about 3/4" of the wire insulation was melted as well). When the wire nut melted it damaged a couple others that were in close proximity to it. This was inside a 4" metal box..why the breaker didn't trip before meltdown, I dunno, but the circuit worked just fine, apparently for several years, until the remodeling contactor a couple weeks ago was pounding on a steel support column with a hammer and the circuit breaker tripped....they flipped the breaker back on and all seemed fine. Tried several times to replicate it again, pounding on column and couldn't. Chase the entire circuit. Turns out when they pounded on the column the wires in this junction box, which was 20' away. must have vibrated enough to contact the box or the loose ground wire inside the box and trip out the circuit....scary. In that box, which was a double stacked 4", there were 8 circuits of stranded 12 ga, and most of the wire nuts were relatively loose. A couple of circuits the strands weren't even twisted together.........
Thanks Richard! You just have to look at the wiring carefully. You can tape up any suspicious wires with electrical tape. I have a thermal camera, might be interesting.
If you bend those wires too much. The insulation just cracks right off. Or if it's that old and you look at it wrong. It sucks if that happens where the wire enters the box.
The insulation on these wires was still in pretty good shape, and I added electrical tape.
Thank You very Much
You are welcome!
I know you said that it doesn’t matter which bronze terminals the traveler wires go in the 1st 3-way switch , but does the 2nd 3-way switch need to match where you put them in the 1st one? Thanks in advance!
No, it doesn't matter.
@@SparkyChannel thank you Sparky !
1957 house, more than 40 years electrical installation and also cloth wire with no ground, ( know is in a loose wire behind), I will recomend to rewire up to date requirements.
Don’t get me wrong, like inspector I have to write it off, for old wiring unknowing grounding loop is complete or not. NEC 2020 requires ground in each box.
Thanks!
Thank you! Another excellent video! One question. How would you add a Romex with white, red and black wire to the three-way switch that contains the load wire? Thank you so much!
Thank you for the video and information!
I have question about rework in this house you’re doing.
You said the house is a complete renovation.
However you didn’t replace the super old wiring.
Why not in in a renovation when was clearly needed?
It wasn't in the budget.
was fabric-like insulation used commonly for house wiring back then?
Yep.
1:43 Gotta say, most Service/Tech calls for 3-way switches “having issues” are 98% of the time wired up like this, mis-wired in some way. If were my house; WOULD DRIVE ME CRAZY, especially if the the “main” switch was on separate floor and you go to bed or something and are unable to turn the light off (or on) till the other switch is “on” 🤦🏼 Drive me crazy it would🤪
I have found that the problem frequently is the home owner playing electrician. They will change out one of the 3 way switches and put the line or load on a traveler screw. I always ask them if anyone has been working on the switches and hear crickets.🙄🤥🦗🦗🦗
Hi Sparky. Great video thank you for your instruction. I have a question. My 1931 home of 4 years has a light switch that suddenly stopped working the light outside. I replaced the light fixture and it didn't work. It is an older click-sounding Leviton switch. I didn't know it was a 3-way until this weekend when I went to replace it. The light would sometimes go on then it just stopped. I thought the click mechanism cracked and wasn't opening the load to the fixture. Well, I don't think it is a bad switch. I replaced the 3-way with a single pole switch and the breaker tripped when I turned on the light. Now the breaker has never tripped before. It shares the line with the hallway 3-way switches, a bathroom, and a bedroom. Now maybe I crisscrossed the wires. However, I did find that there is a covered switch box right at the other end of the hallway where the other 3-way switch would be. The working hallway 3-way was relocated to the other side of the wall to access the hall light from the kitchen. Both boxes have no power when the breaker is off. My question is: What could be the issues? Many many thanks in advance.
What if I've got hot wires in both switch locations? I'm losing my mind trying to figure out how to update these switches!
You may have answered this but how does the three-way keep working for so long when wired wrong? What finally causes it to go bad? Thanks for the video it was fantastic
Hi Devin! It's just that the current is switched off when you want it to be switched on about 50% of the time. No extra wear and tear. Thanks!
Thank-you for this video, will this be the same process for a light with three switches and only 14-2 wires in the box, thank-you
No problem, best wishes!
👍💯
Thanks Theo!
Have you heard about Wiha Speede II, Bill? It is an excellent tool that screws for you in a normal hand screwdriver size.
I have the original Speede and felt it was very under powered. I'll have to check out the Speede II.
@@SparkyChannel the first generation Speede only went up to 0.4Nm with the motor. The new one goes to 1Nm, and with that it is only 1 more turn with wrist until you have perfect tightness for mostly house AWG wires.
@@tommymack3210 Excellent!
That wire that has the blue tape that you called the load wire is it the wire that goes to the fixture and I would like to know the best alligator clip for my Klein CL1200 test lead insulated screw on
In older homes. If there’s no neutral in the switch boxes does that mean the neutral wire ends at the light box?
Hey Bill
How you connect a 3 way switch that requires a neutral and the neutral is not there where the incoming line comes in. The neutral is in the other gang box where the load line is. Please explain.
Can use one of the travelers wire to connect to the neutrals. To bring the neutral to the first line in gang box is that possible?
Very helpful 🙏
I have a box with 4 wires - 2 are spliced and going onto one terminal, the other terminals have one wire. What would I need to do there?
1957 house...does it have Tail Fins ?
LOL!
Will we get to see the house when you're done fixing it?
Yep. Have a great Sunday!
That wiring looks like it’s from 1857
At my local home center they often call spec grade switches and outlets commerical grade.
Are there further rankings within spec grade? I've seen commerical, industrial, and heavy duty sold at my home center but they all say spec grade printed on the device. They are clearly different devices with different price points but still all say spec grade.
Commercial grade is a kind of spec grade. Industrial grade, hospital grade etc. are also spec grade. All excellent.
Is it possible to have the line wire at the light if so what would that look like at the switches?
See: 3 Way Switch with Power to Light: Old Style Wiring, Simple and Effective: ua-cam.com/video/fKBLbTG37AA/v-deo.html
Hi Bill. I love your videos in the field. Question: if the neutral is being used as one of the travelers, and there is no third conductor between switches, then what is the return path for the current? Seems like there wouldn’t be anything to connect the neutrals to coming out of the light box. Thanks!
Perhaps I should do a video on that as there are enough people who own older homes who would like to know about this.
You need 2 travelers wires right? And there is no ground wire in the boxes. The ground wires are in the walls behind the boxes. Are you with me?
OK, so the travelers are the white and the black wires of a 14/2 without ground cable.
Let me know if you followed that.
@@SparkyChannel gotcha
@@SparkyChannel So where did the neutral wire go that was coming into the the light if that was the wire coming from the electrical box? Did it connect directly to the light? What about the neutral wire going to the first switch? What happened to it if they used a 14/2 wire? And likewise, if they used a 14/ 2 wire, what happened to the neutral wire? I understand that the ground wire was serving as the return path to the box.
great vid. did you reminf folk to sand the copper to remove oxidation???
Thanks Dave! No, but that's a good idea.
I wouldn't do that. It reduces the wire size. Better is to cut a short piece off the wires, strip the insulation and you got fresh copper.
Hey Bill, hope all is well. Just curious, were you saying single pull or single pole? Nice video once again.
Single pole. Thanks Kris, I really hope it helps people.
@@SparkyChannel It does help. You're welcome.
Is there a reason to turn power off? I changed a switch with power on and I’m 99% sure I had it wired right and I tripped the breaker!
Yes, it's best and safest to turn the power off first.
and a ground? that does not sound like 1957 wiring. more like early 70's? we bought a project house, that was wired 12/2 without ground. We are guessing 1970. weird. typical scarry stuff. Some cloth insulalted wire is falling apart, others also have rubber, and seem to be still in great shape. The duplex outlets do not have ground, and some have the hot neutral reversed. Some of the outlets were so tired, they dont grip the plug anymore. The electrical box, was missing the cover, and bees had moved in.
I have a quick question, why did you not pull the old wire and put in new romex? Is that wire safe?
Yes, I do feel that the wire is still safe.
@@SparkyChannel thank you for answering. I always get a little nervous when I see the old wiring. That being said, you're an electrician and I'm not. Thank you for your channel. it is most helpful.
If you are replacing the switches anyways, you might as well take apart all the wires and start from scratch. If I am called just to repair 3 way wiring, I can figure it out pretty fast without taking apart all wires especially if the wiring isn't very old. Lol
Yes, it's much easier on newer houses.
Do you use 12AWG for 3 way switch wiring even if it's on a 15 amp breaker?
Hi Kris! 12 AWG would be exceeding code which in my reading of the code is OK. On a 15A circuit I would use 14AWG. It's less confusing for everyone and it saves money.
Did you ever get the new Knipex 13 72 8 forged wire strippers? I am still hoping for a video on that tool.
I ordered them but never received them. I'll have to re-order.
@@SparkyChannel I ordered from the place you said you ordered from - waited about 3 months and canceled my order. As soon as I did that, I got an email from them saying they now had them in stock and they could ship immediately. Too late, I had placed an order from Chad’s Toolbox for the same price. I got them within a few days. They are great! I’d love to hear your take on them.
@@orascreencasts Sounds good!
@@orascreencasts What outfit did you buy them from the 1st time?
@@SparkyChannel I've order this twice from Amazon and on both occasions the package was not delivered
No disrespect, but why keep the old wiring? It looks like time to replace it.
👍🏻🍻🍺🍕
Cheers with beers and pizzas!
No neutral in the box in this example? Different wiring diagram needed?
Hi Ted! There is a neutral in the light fixture. Then the white wire is used as part of a switch loop going to the first switch. Then the white wire is used as a traveler wire going between the 3-way switches. The the white wire is once again used as part of a switch loop going to the light. So yes on neutral in the light box, no on neutrals in the light boxes even though white wires are present. (Or wires that were white at one time.)
Do you still work as an electrician? How can you still work at your age? Do you do any exercises for mobility, stretch or strengthen? Do you have a morning routine?
Yes i put the thumb down. 1st Do you know how old Bill is? Probably not. What does age have to do with working daily as an Electrician or any job other than experience and wisdom. You can do it or you can't. Am sure Bill isn't Jack LaLanne. Probably has routine but am sure its not going to a gym but then again he may. Wow you posted "how can you still work at your age". August i will be 70 and i have 2 grandchildren and 2 great grandchildren and i work as an Electrician daily. I do the physical part as well as supervision etc.
@@mkidd8806 Because atleast as I can see, it is mostly young guys working as electricians. So, Im not trying to be negative. I have respect for him and I want to learn from him.
I had no intent to be mean.
@@mkidd8806 I'll be 68 Aug 1st and still do electrical as well as plumbing ... Just sayin' ...
Hi Guys! No offence taken at all. I do stretching from Pete Egosque videos. Type his name into UA-cam and you'll see a lot of videos by him. And for nutrition I like Dr Berg who is also on UA-cam. Good question!
@@mkidd8806 Great job!
Looks like the 1453-2T's are worn out and the 5623-2W has taken its place.
Yep.
Im scared of those materials being asbestos.
There was no asbestos in the electrical boxes.
A