you know, no offense, and he should certainly practice them, but aren't handoffs a super difficult input?! I don't know if it's as easy as "just learn it"
@@edge60able It's not just the hard parts, Zain's punishes outside of the chaingrab wasn't really optimized at all. There are some things that he could easily do, like, simple as in "do you even know that this is an option that exists" simple. One example is at 7:05, where Zain ends a chaingrab by fsmashing Leffen forward. He could have instead initiated an upthrow and then fsmashed with Nana right away (simple input, just upthrow fsmash instead of doing downthrow fsmash) which would have reversed and set up for an edgeguard.
@edge60able they're not that hard boss, it only took me a month of getting into melee to get pretty consistent ledge 0-deaths on the top tiers like 6 years back. Considering how good he is and how often he practices melee in general he'd get'em down in a few weeks. Only caveat is that because you have to react to an animation in order to time it, it's more affected by monitor latency/lag than other frame tight inputs like JC shine or ledgedashes. D-throw is pretty ez to handoff sheik with since it's a 4 frame window, but f-throw is 2 frames & even one frame of latency becomes a big deal for muscle memory. If he stays with CRT for handoff practice, the visual cues are really ez to time around.
@@edge60ableThey can be tricky at first, but they’re not all that hard. Zain can do them, I’ve seen him do that many times, he just didn’t have them here unfortunately
Zain for sure has the best secondary names Don’tTestMe - Roy Don’tNestMe - Falco Don’tRestMe - Puff Don’tTestUs - ICs I wonder if he can come up with anything else good - also fox naghmi looks like a sore thumb next to that list
Zain going ICs is the ultimate sign of respect for Leffen's Sheik. Also I think it's easy to counter it with Zelda, it's still hard but Zelda's fair/kick can make a huge difference.
I AM the dude that said that, that Ringler made Leffen swap 😂👍 Ringler's DK having Leffens Fox ACTUALLY BEAT is a hard fact, and it still makes me laugh 😅😂 So he had to go Shiek!
" It's Ultimate level of counterpick " Yeah lets act as if PPMD and Armada werent used to counterpick each other with Peach beating Falco, Marth beating Peach, Fox beating Marth, Falco beating Fox back to Peach beating Falco
yeah there was definitely some major counterpick meta happening back in 2014-6 (remember when, at apex, armada and hbox played a set involving peach, young link, puff, fox, and ness?) but it really seemed like it was going away and 20xx was the future thankfully, counterpicking characters is back in full and overall top level viability is more diverse than ever rather than fox being the whole game like we feared
@@jmarvins I wouldn't say 20XX was the future past 2014-16 (I think that's what your message implies), already years ago various characters had great results, even back in 2017 when ChuDat was somehow top 10 with Icies, the rise of aMSa as top 10, the major and supermajor wins of Axe and Wizzrobe, meanwhile actually most top players have not seen their results skyrocketing after switching to Fox, Plup being a prime example, he might be a beast, but his solo Fox never achieved as much greatness than his Sheik
@@sigomare i was around then, and am aware of what you're saying - you are misreading me (or i was unclear) is all, no big deal i am saying that IN 2014-6, despite character diversity, people were WORRIED that 20xx was the future - a future which did not actually pan out at all for the reasons you mention among others
This is the first big tournament in a while where pokemon transformations were legal, and Leffen falls through the stage. Seriously this map needs to be frozen for good.
i love this game but i hate it at the same time i wish that a game could finally thoroughly succeed melee already problems being first not enough characters and variety. melee movement is really great but i would like to see better updated moveset, current meta character can stay but we need cooler character with cool moveset, for example i like cloud f tilt and upair graphics can be better, we need a complete model and game revamp, ultimate characters revamp doesnt look that good but hopefully we can get something with top tier character design buffering system? i'm kinda on the fence about this one, making it as much easier to do meta tech skill consistently leads to higher level playing, therefore combat can be made much faster which directly negates the buffering system so maybe a system that make combat better that will allow you to think multiple steps further. but im mostly looking for the first 2. the set on Fod is so beautiful with marth and sheik dancing in such close proximity in neutral just makes me feel a little disappointed that it's on such an old game
Counter counter pick: swap to Zelda to counter the ICs
huge brain
Actually Leffen plans to counterpick DontTestUs with Mewtwo
Sheik wins anyways but in certain spots maybe
ics still beat zelda hard
no? it's not in favour of zelda for sure, but it's really only 55-45/60-40.
If zain works on his punish (doing blizzard & tilts on regrabs, handing off to kill% before smashing, etc.) this is gonna be rough for the sheiks
you know, no offense, and he should certainly practice them, but aren't handoffs a super difficult input?! I don't know if it's as easy as "just learn it"
@@edge60able It's not just the hard parts, Zain's punishes outside of the chaingrab wasn't really optimized at all. There are some things that he could easily do, like, simple as in "do you even know that this is an option that exists" simple.
One example is at 7:05, where Zain ends a chaingrab by fsmashing Leffen forward. He could have instead initiated an upthrow and then fsmashed with Nana right away (simple input, just upthrow fsmash instead of doing downthrow fsmash) which would have reversed and set up for an edgeguard.
@edge60able they're not that hard boss, it only took me a month of getting into melee to get pretty consistent ledge 0-deaths on the top tiers like 6 years back. Considering how good he is and how often he practices melee in general he'd get'em down in a few weeks.
Only caveat is that because you have to react to an animation in order to time it, it's more affected by monitor latency/lag than other frame tight inputs like JC shine or ledgedashes. D-throw is pretty ez to handoff sheik with since it's a 4 frame window, but f-throw is 2 frames & even one frame of latency becomes a big deal for muscle memory. If he stays with CRT for handoff practice, the visual cues are really ez to time around.
@@edge60ableThey can be tricky at first, but they’re not all that hard. Zain can do them, I’ve seen him do that many times, he just didn’t have them here unfortunately
Hello children. Zain knows all of these things. Performing in tournament is hard. Switching chars is even harder. Have a blessed day.
That video Armada did about the undeveloped counterpick meta suddenly makes a lot of sense now
Which video was that one?
@@tiporosso google it
@@zetsun0BASED
@@zetsun0legend
@@zetsun0 the GOAT
Crazy how leffen goes from "we gotta stop hbox from camping and stalling" to platform camping against Zains ICs
Almost like he’s a hypocrite sociopath always trying to twist things his way, lol
@@soren1803 wow you are so fucking mad its too funny. imagine hating someone you dont know for shit, ur pathetic
Let me guess, not even 5 minutes after the match he was complaining on Twitter about ICs?
@@Rain1Nope, he didn’t complain at all.
@@soren1803LMAOOOO Jesus Christ. Get a life
Zain for sure has the best secondary names
Don’tTestMe - Roy
Don’tNestMe - Falco
Don’tRestMe - Puff
Don’tTestUs - ICs
I wonder if he can come up with anything else good - also fox naghmi looks like a sore thumb next to that list
After further thought he should name his yoshi Don’tDigestMe
Don'tCopyMe - Kirby
Link: Don’tExcuseMe
DontTestUs is a genius fucking name
I as a Zain fan adore his Marth and worship it as the most gorgeous thing in Melee.
That being said, DontTestUs had me hyped as fuck
@@meleessbdo you so happen to be named gsubs? 🤔
As a car guy I hate to admit it but the new Prius does look sick. Glad we getting the big sponsors.
u r half car half guy????
I saw one irl yesterday and was like "damn what is that?"
Fire.
Leff got that Hillary Clinton cut.
i love this game and i love this community and i love our shoutcasters thank you ludwig and charlie
I'm here for the slime and toph show.
leffen’s not switching to guilty gear after this W. the only thing he’s GUILTY of is putting his brand new Toyota Prius in GEAR!
"This is exactly like Tweek's Sephiroth...... and I will not elaborate further."
This set is definitely a sign for the storm to come
It's gonna be a blizzard.
Zain going ICs is the ultimate sign of respect for Leffen's Sheik. Also I think it's easy to counter it with Zelda, it's still hard but Zelda's fair/kick can make a huge difference.
I AM the dude that said that, that Ringler made Leffen swap 😂👍 Ringler's DK having Leffens Fox ACTUALLY BEAT is a hard fact, and it still makes me laugh 😅😂 So he had to go Shiek!
One of the most cultivated unexpectedly volatile matchups ever both in players and in characters
6:26 Tophs laugh sent me wtf was that noise ahahah
sounds like that laugh Woody does after joshing Buzz in Toy Story
I clapped in my own home like a 40 year old man watching the Sunday night game when Zain switched to ICs
"Zain's Ice Climbers are called DontTestUs." "🤣"
15:55 nice shot hugo
" It's Ultimate level of counterpick "
Yeah lets act as if PPMD and Armada werent used to counterpick each other with Peach beating Falco, Marth beating Peach, Fox beating Marth, Falco beating Fox back to Peach beating Falco
yeah there was definitely some major counterpick meta happening back in 2014-6 (remember when, at apex, armada and hbox played a set involving peach, young link, puff, fox, and ness?) but it really seemed like it was going away and 20xx was the future
thankfully, counterpicking characters is back in full and overall top level viability is more diverse than ever rather than fox being the whole game like we feared
@@jmarvins I wouldn't say 20XX was the future past 2014-16 (I think that's what your message implies), already years ago various characters had great results, even back in 2017 when ChuDat was somehow top 10 with Icies, the rise of aMSa as top 10, the major and supermajor wins of Axe and Wizzrobe, meanwhile actually most top players have not seen their results skyrocketing after switching to Fox, Plup being a prime example, he might be a beast, but his solo Fox never achieved as much greatness than his Sheik
@@sigomare i was around then, and am aware of what you're saying - you are misreading me (or i was unclear) is all, no big deal
i am saying that IN 2014-6, despite character diversity, people were WORRIED that 20xx was the future - a future which did not actually pan out at all for the reasons you mention among others
@@jmarvins Yeah that's not how I read it, no big deal as you said
Don’t forget Armada young link at evo. Another great era for melee fans rn
Wow. The way Zain moves with Marth is really something to behold.
At the end of the day, it was I, the viewer who was tested above all
Zain’s next coin box as Donttestus wins it all with icies
14:01 im eating breakfast right now about to choke on my food LMFAOOOO
thumbnail goated
even on final d its tough rn for him. zain needs to keep workign on ics. surprised he isnt confident with his matrh against sheikl
Every tournament needs to hire someone like Wisely to commentate ICs. Ik this was a surprise cause it’s Zain, but ics commentary is pretty bad
this is my kink
so Leffen complains that HBox camps him, and does the exact same to Zain. Fair play to both, but very hypocritical to complain about it.
Hbox only camps leffen because he plays like a bitch against him lol, no other fox player has that problem other than leffen
@@zogbogbean2464different matchup different dynamic, different everything really but hbox camping is also totally fair game
who cares tho 😂
Im gonna poop
Dude same
Like rn too
Bro is going to need a backup for his backup
Such a clever name
my man leffen needs a new haircut
This is the first big tournament in a while where pokemon transformations were legal, and Leffen falls through the stage. Seriously this map needs to be frozen for good.
And the infinite ☠️ the maps fun tho
It takes adjustment going back to it what
nintendo
this same stage let leffen win against IBDW so ig it has its positives too
stadium gives and takes away, won him the tournament in the end saving him vs Cody
Cant wait to see ICs vs Zelda in grand finals one day
Leffen Pikachu?
Since when does Leffen have a shiek??? Where have I been lol
picked it up maybe a year ago or so to counter zain's marth and now zain goes IC to counter. pretty hype
zain here multitasking is so beautiful
took advantage of leffen's ptsd against slug
THEY USED MY NAME NO FUCKING WAY HOLY SHIT TOPH YOURE THE FUCKING MAN
I hated Ice Climbers till they took a game from Leffen 😂
He’ll win next time if he picks red Sopo
Awesome
leffen might as well come to marth side
Leffen's new hair looks ridiculous
Great stuff leff
That is a positively HUGE HJELTE
Why does leffen look like he's wearing a leffen mask?
Just like every other Ludwig sponsored tournament, the commentary is arguably better than the melee
Eeeeeh
It was pretty distracting ngl lol.
As an Hbox fan boy i love seeing leffen of all people have to resort to sitting on a ledge doing nothing :)
Why are they playing unfrozen stadium
most likely nintendo complaint or something like that
When was this tourney ?
Now lol
@@oscar1847 whose stream fam
@@bigdrefromthebay6475 Ludwig
No one’s gonna say about how much of a hypocrite Leffen is?
who cares he won lol
I cant listen to any commentary from this event 🙉
Meta shift
people usually complain about the thing they hate the most about themselves. camper.
Could the commentators talk about the matchup for like 12 seconds? Smash commentators are the absolute worst.
What is this commentary talking about bruh 💀
If i did a wobbling patch
I would give the damage limit to at most 40% before you release and no chain grab so variety is there
Game 5 Leffen stalling just like the guy he hates with a fiery passion is peak irony
Sheik vs ICs? Might as well rename SSBM to "Shield Grab: The Game". Puke
Unfrozen pokemon is so lame
why are these anouncers talking about everything but the game going on
That’s just a lot of melee commentary man. Some love it some hate it
It's like golf, except the commentators are all friends and talk over the match until something crazy happens.
I dont mind it
way better than boring play by play
Maybe the tournament wasn't a serious event?
This is the first time I've ever cheered for Leffen haha.
i love this game but i hate it at the same time
i wish that a game could finally thoroughly succeed melee already
problems being
first not enough characters and variety. melee movement is really great but i would like to see better updated moveset, current meta character can stay but we need cooler character with cool moveset, for example i like cloud f tilt and upair
graphics can be better, we need a complete model and game revamp, ultimate characters revamp doesnt look that good but hopefully we can get something with top tier character design
buffering system? i'm kinda on the fence about this one, making it as much easier to do meta tech skill consistently leads to higher level playing, therefore combat can be made much faster which directly negates the buffering system so maybe a system that make combat better that will allow you to think multiple steps further.
but im mostly looking for the first 2.
the set on Fod is so beautiful with marth and sheik dancing in such close proximity in neutral just makes me feel a little disappointed that it's on such an old game
Is called PM
@@Ellesenzacognome dead game tbf
@@ditodevice1950 we re trying to unify the European community, If we succeed there will be a strong community for playing
why don't we just make a patch first so we can fix actual broken characters like game n watch
@@xaevius5319 melee is Beautiful because is broken
nice clickbait
If zain picked peach it would be Don'tZestme