Zain Tells MKLeo & Maister Why Ultimate Is Harder To Play Than Melee
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- Опубліковано 29 чер 2024
- One of the best Melee players in the world Moist Zain has started a journey where he learns how to play a brand new game, Smash Ultimate. So far he has gone up against Sparg0, MKLeo, Sonix, Maister, Onin & more on his quest to become the best.
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0:00 Welcome to the Show
1:45 Zain on his recent success with content creation
3:37 Zain's current feelings towards Melee
5:05 Zain's journey to becoming the #1 player in Melee
7:10 Will MKLeo & Maister ever play Melee?
9:10 Learning matchups in Ultimate
11:10 Is Zain really enjoying Smash Ultimate?
12:30 The differences between Melee & Ultimate
14:10 Zain's experience playing on WiFi
18:45 Will Zain enter a bracket anytime soon for Ultimate?
19:15 Zain getting 0-2'd during Coinbox...
20:15 Mango & Spargo vs Leo & Zain?!
21:55 Difference between ranked for Ultimate & Melee
27:05 Zain's opinion on Steve?
32:30 Who is Zain's least favorite character to play in Ultimate?
34:40 Zains Smash Ultimate Poisoning vs Hbox's Ultimate Detox
40:30 What is Zain's secret to winning a major in Smash?
45:15 Maister's new secondary, Cloud or Steve?
48:00 Ultimate is making Zain better at Melee?
51:45 Zain going to be playing Smash in his 40's?
53:25 Outro
► Follow Maister: / maister_ssb
► Follow Leo: / mkleosb
► Follow Zain: x.com/ZainNaghmi
► Editor & Thumbnail: Brandon Osborne
#supersmashbrosultimate #mkleo #zain - Ігри
Zain playing Ultimate was such a genius content move from him after HBox announced his Ultimate Detox. Super entertaining seeing him interact with all the Ult Top Players
Yeah his streams now has more views than mangos
@@fupaloverthat’s insane
Ya it was great watching zain make stupid comments like the title of this video, I love it soooooo much
leo only being 23 blew my mind
he’s been so good for so long
yeah that is crazy
He was like 14 when he became a top player
@kunntakentay kind of like another goat from melee
A prodigy among prodigies.
He also just looks old asf
It’s the most entertaining smash youtube in a long time, and it’s been cool to see melee and ultimate players collaborating
i feel like players are making a real effort to keep ultimate and melee alive because the tournaments are starting to dip player count wise.
@johnmarkson1998 wow it only took smash in general going on a serious decline for communities to come together lmao what a joke !
@@jaidsalgado jaido all you do is complain. youre never happy. this entire week you been in a terrible mood.
@@johnmarkson1998 there's actually a melee stats article showing that Melee has increased this year, and is on pace to match or even surpass 2018 levels of attendance. While it won't hit the peak of 2015, the online sentiment that the game is dipping (at least for melee) doesn't equal the reality of people entering and engaging IRL.
Please Zain, as a Ult and Melee enjoyer.
Don't stop playing Ult after 90 days.
It's such a genius move as well because you get good exposure from the Ult audience.
With the Sonix and Onin experiences on the first days, I personally wouldn't have even finished out the 90 days
@@oneofthe12sionmains70 As an Ultimate player. I wish I had that kind of experience. Good match up knowledge.
@@fr0stdr4ke95 You're a strong person because I'd rather keep the little sanity I have left
@@BenjaminRatthe I'd rather get camped by Sonix, Acola, and Miya, then immediately play prime Spargo, Leo, and Riddles, before I quit playing.
@@jonteguy he will keep playing if he enjoys it. If he doesn’t he won’t. It’s pretty simple. These pro players don’t play the games for money. If they did they would be Fortnite pros or valorant pros lol
ever since zain did those sketches weve been waiting for him for content dude has extra charisma
Zain has such a great personality
yeah I might keep watching him after Ultimate
@@KingOblivI highly recommend it, moky Zain Fridays are some of the best content out there
@@RiseAgainstFan96 what's that just them playing together
I probably he seems fun
@@KingObliv yeah they play melee together or other games, they have a consequence wheel and stuff like that. They are good people and seem to have a real genuine friendship. Also they're just really funny
I remember Zain from the local College Scene at Virginia Tech. It was called ESports Lounge. This was 2016 and at the time he was the best melee player here. I played friendlies in smash 4 with him for like an hour. Cool guy. I still remember when the TO announced to us at the venue that Zain beat Plup at BigHouse. The Venue exploded lol.
You think zain is L cancelling in ultimate out of muscle memory?
He has to be lol
I do it when I play ultimate and I've played a fraction of the melee he has
Its like dribbling a basketball for melee players. It feels wrong not doing it
i do it in rivals so yeah he def doing it
I can't stop doing it in ultimate
I can't wait to see leo and zain team up for melee doubles.
Also I just noticed Leo's plushies. Really cute.
@Maister you gotta be the change you wanna see. Game Theory holds true. If you and other leaders make it a point to do bootcamps or do anything else that would give you a competitive advantage, others will fall in line for fear of being left behind.
This is true and has a a scary amount of potential
well said
G&W boot camp in Kansai prefecture 😎
yes but like real shit a lot of ult top players are straight up lazy and they will admit it themselves especially when the game is "dead" the way it is now. Even if they host a boot camp not guarantee people even show up
@@Cashmoneez "dead" game with global participation and a huge presence online. That's funny that you'd say top ult players are generally lazy too
Zain should play against riddles to see how kazuya works
Don’t make him quit too early lol
nah zain was getting bodies by an online kazuya spamming b moves 🤣
As a Riddles fan. That might be the rebirth of
[I'M NOT GONNA SUGARCOAT IT] in his chat. But it would be funny if Zain learns to DI Kazuya combos before top players do.
man all these guys are so cool, this podcast has made me actually interested in smash again
I've always been of the opinion that Ultimate teaches neutral, and decision making much better than Melee. Melee teaches mechanical skill and mastery of a character over decision making and neutral. Melee's neutral is a lot more condensed as opposed to Ultimate's neutral. Frame traps, 50/50s, unique hitbox/hurtbox interactions, and option select is a lot more prevalent in Ultimate. I went from Ultimate to Melee and a lot of my neutral game has boiled down into habits so it's been a struggle converting back to Ultimate lmao. Loved Zain's comment on the differences between both games as it was spot on for me.
whats your rank in both games? fact is ultimate has a more neutured neutral with far fewer opportunities for outplay due to lack of crouch cancel, dash dancing, less areal drift and fast fall mixups, as well as a more basic shield pressure game. As well as this melee has a superior punish game neutral, with DI reads and mixups (in ultimate this exists too but to a far lesser extent), advanced tech chasing and sdi + slideoff reversals, while ultimate basically only has directional airdodge reads.
Sure melee has a "learning how to move your character" prerequisite, but it allows far deeper outplays which you haven't even touched yet and so a higher skill ceiling in neutral.
zain sparking this wholesome smash collaboration is the content I didn't know I needed. Melee/ultimate dual bootcamp when?
I was the guy who beat the icies in coinbox that Zain had to play against, he didn’t throw to fight zain, our set actually went game 3 and he lost because I play palu which is a hard mu for icies and I also knew how to escape a lot of the desyncs. I didn’t know the loser of our set would play Zain otherwise I might have threw lmao
I would instantly gain motivation and take the game seriously again if it had rollback netcode. Multiversus really made me feel like i cant go back to smash online, its unusable garbage and i hate it lol.
What is rollback?
@@sethlopez8287 a specific type of netcode that has instances and it always checks to make sure your instance is stable. It checks far more often than delay based netcode and is a much more stable experience. Or thats the best way i can explain it in laymans terms without being an expert.
@@sethlopez8287 You essentially agree to a 2-3 frame delay to prevent internet inconsistency but it feels like you're playing offline, smooth as butter. Ult is like 12 frames of delay + lag spikes and it doesnt evedn use rollback so its essentially 100x worse in every way.
Iirc rollback will also track the inputs during moments of lag and correct the game state to be in accordance with those inputs.
@@sethlopez8287 I don't know the specifics, but for what most people have to know, rollback is basically universally considered the best netcode for fighting games. When Melee got Slippi Netplay in 2020, it was made with rollback netcode and made it so we could still have legit tournaments where all the best could play during quarantine, and players could play against each other at anytime and grind to get better very easily. There were a few people that didn't like playing online as much as offline, namely Hbox and Axe, but it wasn't anything like with Ultimate where there were a lot of people not really playing, or going secondaries and picking up new mains because of online making some characters terrible to play as, and other characters terrible to play against in the horrendous online that is natively in Ultimate
Man loving this Zain arc, reminds me of year 1 Ult. I miss it because it's the closest the community getting together like this since PM.
36:28 that Hbox impression was so good
look up any Zain vids with Zuan in the title for more. He's been making Hbox impression vids for a long time.
this ep was mad good
11:50 where Zain talks about the inability to run through characters, that's one of the more important factors that help setup ledge trapping in Ultimate; I think of the biggest differences that separate from competitive Ultimate from competitive Melee beyond the technical standpoint. While Ultimate buffed recoveries so that you'll generally make it regardless of your character from the average hit that swats you off the stage, getting past the opponent back to center stage is a challenge; you can't just run past them and you have limited options in how to get off the ledge with rapidly dwindling time of invincibility. So the offstage game has a nice risk reward decision making where you can play it safe and ledge trap to build up damage or risk it all and edgeguard to take a stock, at the risk of losing your own. I think it's nice that Zain brought this up that Melee players aren't too interested in. Our Ultimate counterpart to this "game design preference" is the offstage wars in games like Multiversus where you have to spike the opponent a gazillion times to edgeguard them. Heck, the FGC's counterpart is how someone wailing on a shield in Smash Bros can easily get punished (so FGC players can't easily tell who is in the lead) unlike in a typical FGC game, doing a combo on a blocking character puts you in an advantageous state and the opponent must sit there and respect and hope an opening comes.
And I enjoyed the question of Maister asking what it takes to win a major and part of Zain's response was adding flair to his playstyle which improves all aspects of his gameplay. Comparing Maister to Miya, Maister is a fundamentally sound GnW and has wins on players that have taken down Miya. Raflow comes to mind. But watching Miya, you can tell if he's playing on the screen without any need for a player camera or name tag by seeing a GnW choke out the opponent by his insane advantage state or immaculate ledgetrapping. He leaves no quarter, no breathing room, he's always hunting down the opponent. I am curious to see what style Maister aims to go for. I also wish he believed in his Sora. Oh well, fun video.
The worse recovery in melee and ledge hogging means that getting back to stage takes effort and needing to read your opponent, combined with techniques like SDI techs this makes the skill ceiling in recovery to be very high in melee such as can be seen with mang0 or iBDW. Walking through your opponent also deepens the neutral in melee, allowing to cross up your opponent, which ultimate lacks.
@@aoe9015 My point is that the inability to run past an opponent is a necessary component for Ultimate's healthy diversity of Edgeguarding and ledgetrapping gameplay. Melee doesn't have this so a significant number of stocks are taken from edgehogging at top level play. And ledgetrapping is rare in Melee, relative to Ultimate, as you have infinite regrabs and invincibility. AKA planking is a viable tactic while super risky in Ultimate.
If Zain goes to Smash Factor yall should put in a sesh in person. Maybe ult this time and melee at smashcon idk, maybe a little of both would bc that'd be really sick. Would be dope content and help yall improve at each others games
amazing episode
If the doubles goes 1-1, you should play rivals 2 or something
I play both and honestly they both have their difficulties with playing I would say melee is much more stressful competitively making it why it's more difficult in my opinion in ult I feel less pressured as I compete more in melee and thus do better in ult tournaments at my college weeklies sometimes than melee this may be because i put a lot of work into kazuya in ult labbing the 0-death combos ferps tech and being good at getting my conversions making ult easier for me it did take me a lot of time though to get the kazuya combos in a real tournament match but it was satisfying when i finally did it.
I agree with Maister on the fact that the Ultimate comunity seems to be more crybabies who refuse to grind sometimes, which can be explained by the fact some players get used to patches so they expect their character to be buffed instead of tryharding (which won't happen anymore). On the other side tho, the Melee community seems to be more toxic in term of trashtalking, dramas and disrespect for players who want to learn the game because of the skill gap. So both can really learn from each other I think.
@@kyurei4478 pretty sure this doesn't apply to japanese players, who as a whole dominate Ultimate as of recently. They grind HARD, playing their favorite characters instead of being meta slaves and finding some unique tech for each character. Japanese players also don't participate in drama and crying on the internet. I think some regions have their own bubble and it's sometimes hard to think outside it.
Woh, I expected to receive a shitstorm for saying this but that's really just an honest observation anyway. Looks like some people agree after all. Yeah, I concur with everything you said. I've always considered japanese players to be a different beast anyway and they seem to lab and grind hard more in general. In fact, I think this majorly applies to the NA scene which stays the main showcase for the competitive scene I think. Because the European scene seems to be more chill when it comes to trashtalking, disrespect and dramas even though I think they share the not grinding hard aspect.
But yeah I noticed it too that the NA scene really seems to have more this meta slave mindset and take all their decisions according to the meta and tier lists. And I think that's the reason why they're usually taken off guard by japanese players and don't understand the things they do because in reality it isn't just about big numbers and there is still rooms for creativity. They approach the game too much in a systemic way when japanese players don't care as much. Both approaches can have their good sides I think but the japanese players will have the unpredictability factor imo.
Europe is always kind of in the middle when it comes to these two very different game philosophies I think, they acknowledge the stats and data but let some room for creativity and exotic decision-making imo. Decision-making might be the thing they're better at with staying safe or going free style when required.
That might reveal deeper cultural differences for each scene but I'll avoid going further into this cause then it becomes very large and complex and not so related to the main topic.
I like patches. It keeps the game interesting. If just to mix things up instead of having the same recycled conversations.
I mean, that's what Melee players go with for decades now and somehow there is still exciting discoveries made about certain characters. So I don't think we need patches to keep the game interesting, but rather to develop the meta of the mid tiers. The point of patches isn't to mix things up or to keep things interesting, it's to balance the game (even though I recognize this is a nice byproduct of it) but we shouldn't want patches for this reason when it's not their point.
Great podcast
after the convo , it makes sense for hbox to detox because he could very possibly be mxing both puffs playstyles togetyher! I think he needs to detox from ultimate puff, and then honestly maybe play someone else so he can seperate the playstyles and not mix ultimate puff with melee
Maister is such a good interviewer fr
3 🐐's great episode
Wifi unplayabele lan adapter makes it playable
To fix steve: have his elytra rockets finite thought the match (just like in actual mc survival). option 1: max 8 rockets per stock, replenish back to 8 after death. option 2: 8 rockets per stock all available from start with no replenish after death. for time matches 8 rockets per 90 sec. press up b to deploy the elytra then b while in use to use rocket (to allow glide without using rocket as an option for recovery).
no blocks without a solid tangent ground or object to place against (just like in actual mc survival).
decrease the size of the minecarts command grab
this is all my opinion of course. what do you think?
Awful changes lol, youre not nerfing him to be fair youre nerfing him so he becomes straight up not fun.
All you need to do is lower the rate in which he mines so he cant block stall infinitely and makes it harder for him to upgrade + spam carts and anvils, put crafting table breaking on a cookdown so theres counterplay to where he can camp, and lower the insane damage multipliers on his upgrades in general and hed be a high tier.
maybe I'm just not good enough to tell the difference but when I was on vacation in Japan I tried playing a little bit of quickplay online and it didn't feel particularly better there than here to me personally
Quickplay doesn't really represent the level of play that is being compared between japan and America. If you research why people think japan is better it has to do with things outside of quickplay.
Zain bringing new life to Ultimate 🔥🔥🔥
Gotta bring mango back on ult somehow
Imagine if level 9 Kazuya existed during patch 1.0. . .
Maister: I love you and I wanna see you win. But I think you’re the only top player that I consistently see getting super anxious to finish games when you’re winning. And then over extending and losing.
Playing patiently at the end of the games would’ve changed some close sets in my opinion.
But also if I, as a casual, see it then I’m sure you already thought of it.
One other thing: there is another prodigy G&W. Instead of comparing who’s the best in the world you guys should anlyse the shit out of each other and help each other out. Imagine visiting each other and grinding out games and exchanging secrets. The G&W reign that would follow 😎
I think they've already started learning from each other. Maister is playing the Kazuya matchup differently now, focusing more on the aerial game and better exploiting his disadvantaged state. That's a lot like how Miya plays this matchup. On the flip side, Miya has massively increased his smash attack usage in the past few months across plenty of different matchups. I wouldn't be surprised if this change happened partly because Maister has always exploited this particular strength of G&W, and Miya decided to integrate it into his gameplan because he saw how effective that was sometimes.
@@legrandliseurtri7495 thanks for sharing this info 🙏🏻 if i was rich i would finance for them to travel to each other and have a live translator
Zain for WTT2!
Melee is more technically difficult than ultimate because the implementation of exploits is a MUST if you wanna get good at the game. Also, the Melee top player base has more or less the same level and they don't differ drastically from each other with a few minor exceptions. That means the top 25 is closer in skill which make the tournaments WAY harder to win than Ultimate where you have to be on the lookout for guys like Tweek, Spargo, or Sonix.
Ultimate is more difficult than Melee with how much matchup knowledge you need in the game. With almost 90 characters you won't face the same characters over and over. Also in ultimate, counterpicking is a must and it is also a must to have at least 2 characters mastered. Only a few characters like Sonic or Steve can be used as solo characters. Another thing that makes Ultimate more difficult is the amount of bullshit there is in the game.
While in Melee you need to be worried about the skill of the other player, in Ultimate some characters ignore that (Kazuya) and they just power through everything forcing the opposing player to play differently on a fundamental level.
"That character is pretty annoying!"
Of all people, the guy that mains G&W 😂🎉
Nice
38:46 Plup is such a massive troll that he only wanted to beat Zain because Zain was polite.
Not the GNW main saying Steve is too boring to play
Me screaming CLOUD. CLOOOOOUUUDDDD at the screen while they wonder who beats steve 😭
I know the Icies player, and he actually didn’t throw to get into losers. He also had bad luck in winners😅
GnW is kind of good despite is complete lack of a shield. The NAIR is still really good.
He only has been playing Ultimate for 2 weeks of course it’s not gonna have any effect on his Melee results..Hbox has been on Ult for years of course it made a difference..
I need zain to main shulk
Zain, you should get Yuzu set up. It’s stupid easy and you can play lagless ultimate online
21:10 Rivals of Aether please. The OG Rivals. Not Rivals 2.
16:45 Mario Kart online may have identical input lag to singleplayer but so does Mario Kart Wii and there's so many things downgraded since the newest version, most notably being able to get hit by completely invisible items, which completely ruins the integrity of any race and isn't even possible in Mario Kart Wii.
leo is fried😂
2 goats in one video
Weird, I don't see Mang0 in this video
Title was clickbait lol
There are too many wild random ass characters, in ultimate thats pretty much the reason its harder
Zunc podcasting
I honestly think both games are hard in their own ways. If you just practice and play one game and evolve with its meta it's equally hard. All tech skill in melee just becomes muscle memory after a certain point, same with ult just different tech. They're both hard imo and ultimate having less tech skill makes competing at mid level easier but at top level it's still hard like melee
I would assume Ultimate's harder because there's more players but Melee's older so maybe it's that idk
@@KingObliv Well, while Ultimate has more top players that can perform really well and even win majors, Melee has fewer but that actually speaks to how much more difficult it is to win majors in Melee. In Ultimate's (relatively to Melee) very short lifetime it has had over 30 people win major tournaments, meanwhile, across Melee's 20 years of being a competitive game with a lot of tournaments in those times, there are only 20 people that have won majors, and big upsets on the top-top players are way less common in Melee as opposed to Ultimate
nah melee is way harder
@@Michael-hc2hp that seems less interesting as a spectator with the same people winning for all this time
less upsets means it's easier to be consistent but also harder to take a win over the top
@@c0diz that's probably coming from someone who's put more time into ultimate than melee and expects to be at a good level in melee immediately, the same happens the other way around. Melee players start off ass unless they grind ultimate
Mario kart online can be pretty bad
"Pick just ONE charakter"
"Playing different games is so hard"
Mew2King: "Hold my oreo"
I'm just gonna stick with Wii U.
i like cats
me too
same
Cats are gret
Cats are great
ur so right
I want to see Zain play the Kazuya CPU
34:25 SEE GUYS. MKLEO SAID DOUBLE ROLLING IS GOOD. Y'ALL GOTTA STOP JUMPING ON MY REAR END FOR USING THIS TECHNIQUE. IT WORKS BRO.
Leo has been getting punished for his rolls since the beginning of Ultimate.
Rolling in general is pretty broken as some characters though.
please poick up steve maister
Maister just pick Sora back up man, you know you want to. Kameme being on indefinite hiatus leaves a gap, we need SOMEONE to champion the dude before people pretend he's bad again.
(Disclaimer: I know he ain't top, that isn't what I'm saying lmao)
guess he aint interested in being better than leff at ult
This Man just called himself a boomer at 28..... -_- I'm about to be 30.. I'm no boomer lol
Yeah that’s annoying.
Zain: "Learning new characters is like learning a language."
Me, a Falco, Yoshi, and Puff tri-main (with a pocket falcon for the ditto): *"Well it's a good fucking thing I'm bilingual"*
yeah playing a worse game is pretty hard. you gotta ask yourself why put yourself through all this every time you play a steve or sonic online.
Steeve is not smash bros. Even zain says it. I will always say steeve is like having the developer skills unlocked only for you
Ehh, Brawl MK and Melee Fox still more broken
@@banditimaclubyou8388Melee Fox really?
Steve isn't as broken as Bayo or MK but he's more unique and out of place
@@banditimaclubyou8388 Melee fox a victim of his own reputation. Probably the least dominant among the top tiers you mentioned, although the most common
@@redwarrior118 nah fox’s shine is the best move in all of smash. Biggest difference is because of the engine of melee, every character gets messed up pretty bad once you get a hit. Couple that with melees almost 25 years of meta development and it gets hazy. But fox is just as big a threat as MK or Bayo is. I’d even argue more of a threat.
Unlike melee, brawl and 4 ended as soon as the next game came out. Not even a fraction of the games metas combined is even on par with melee.
Psh! please. That’s just copium on their part.
Yes I'm boosting engagement, but have to dislike off principle due to clickbait title. Clickbait is morally equivalent to deception.
Ultimate is definitely easier than Melee this isn't even close debate.
Ultimate is no way harder than melee. The only thing that takes more skill in ultimate is learning all the matchups n characters that's literally it. Melee takes a lot more technical skill n out play instead of just camping n knowledge checking ppl.
Maister talking about annoying characters is kinda ironic, don’t you think? 😂
Maister shouldn't play Steve he doesn't cover any matchups that much
yeah kazuya boring game and watch hype???wtf
yeah fox boring jigglypuff hype???
wtf
Traitor
sorry but its not even close. Melee is way harder. Way more tech skill, way faster pace and reaction time, and a way higher skill ceiling that wont even be close to being reached. The only argument is there are more players in ultimate.
they super overrated Steve he has at least 3-4 bad matchups
No he doesnt lol
Cloud
When I see Steve I don’t think oh crap a Steve, I think I’m bully this Steve to outer space
He for sure has Cloud and Min Min as bad matchups. Who else? Please don't say Sonic.
@@lokks2130 I think Sonic is better at the matchup than Min Min. Min Min's disadvantage state is so catastrophically awful, against Steve you only need one slip-up and you're dead.
Melee is easy to play, cause you play all the time againts, falco, fox, falco, fox, falco,falco, fox, falco, fox, falco,sheik, marth, falco, fox, falco, fox, falco,falco, fox, falco, fox, falco,falco, fox, falco, fox, falco,
Melee is much harder than Ultimate. This is a stupid take on things and wow Zain really is being annoying
Melee is hardee to master the mechanics of while Ult is harder to understand the matchups of