If the starter is sluggish (the whole point of the test), and both voltages are the same, then there's no voltage missing. That means there's no voltage lost in the cables. If the voltage is high enough, it isn't the battery. The only other possible fault is the starter. Low voltage during crank? Battery. Different voltages? Cables. Good battery and same voltage? Starter. Would you expect a 12V starter to work well on less than 12V?
This is true. However, in the field, the first determination is whether it's batteries, cables or starter. Then you can make a more exact determination. The point of my method is to avoid excessive testing. If a person felt that the solenoid contacts are the problem, they could simply move the lead from the ground of the motor to the input to the motor (bottom solenoid terminal) and repeat the test. If you do this 1st, it requires more time and more testing, especially since cables fail most.
Best video on how to troubleshoot a starter; and by the way, your LoadPro tool kicks Power Probe's ass so far the tool has worked fine. Thank You for the videos
it's tempting to condemn a component when you can, because , let's face it, it's WAY more fun and satisfying to get to replace a component. But in my experience, Dan is 100% right. 90% or more of the time, I've fixed starting issues SIMPLY by cleaning up or tightening or repairing CONNECTIONS, and NOT components. Any avid DIYer will know this, but anyone who is a newbie at this, pay attention to this advice. It will SAVE you tons of time, and money. Great Job Dan. Thanks.
I think I know what you mean, but I would never refer to a coil and contacts in the same description. The reason I check at the top positive post of the starter is to include the starter "solenoid" contacts in the test. That way, you only need 2 tests, and if the contacts are affected, then they show up as a starter failure since they're technically a part of the starter. They can be cleaned, and if the starter is the problem, it is worth a quick 3rd test to see if the contacts are clean.
All I can say is you have to do a very, very, very thorough visual inspection of the cables to and from the starter. Do you see anything green? Do you see anything black, crispy or split? Not just the outer surfaces -- inside the cable. If it isn't much money, replace all the cables if you suspect anything. Next, you need to do the starter voltage drop test --- if I were there that's all I would do. If the cables and battery are good it's the starter. OR - the engine has too much friction.
@andres220 I work mostly with large frame engines, which have ground cables. If you're working on a car, you need to place the ground probe on the starter frame attached to the engine.
hi Dan great video as always, one question, thus voltage drop is done with the engine cranking rigth? you dont specified in the video how is done , please explain us . thank you I'm learning name Lot from our videos, l keep up the good work buddy
It is amazing that a wire can look fine and be useless. Glad the process worked for you. It's pretty simple when you think about it. Wires and other non-functional components (fuses, switches, connections, etc) shouldn't use energy, and hence shouldn't drop voltage. Good job. Cheaper than a starter or battery, huh?
Hello, I have a voltmeter in my car, when I start the engine the reading was 13.8 volts and suddenly drops to 12.8 volts and after that it reads 13.8 volts again. My rpm is going wild and it has a misfire. Is it the alternator or the starter? because sometimes when the engine is hot it won't start, it just clicks. (fyi: I already clean the fuel injector; replace the battery, distributor cap, spark plug wires, spark plug, air filter, fuel filter, and upgrade to guage 4 grounding wires)
Sorry for the delay - been away. Can't be alternator - and those readings are normal. In fact, only dropping to 12.8V is pretty good! Drops from 13V to 9V are sometimes normal.
hi good video, did the meter show both the same voltage on battery and starter, and if so, how could the starter be cranking like it was, when you mention if they are the same the starter is bad, what am I missing, thanks,
Sorry you didn't get more out of it. This was one of the early videos I did with minimal training and equipment. I was also experimenting. I hope the later videos are more to your liking. Thx.
just bought my Loadpro 181 and eager to put it to the test. Will be building that test switch. Great job on presentation and all the best on your patent. After 30yrs in the field your hard work is finally paying off. I am in the HVAC field now and working with low voltage 24VAC. The loadpro is for a 12VDC system but the troubleshooting techniques are similar and could also apply if just testing wiring harnesses and short circuits in any system. Great job Dan and all the best
Actually - you'll be happy to know that it's good to 28.5V. I've used it successfully in HVAC environments, including a few days ago when my furnace crapped out. It was a seized fan motor but I tested the transformer right away and determined that the control voltage was working. Thanks for the support. Let me know if you have questions.
In your picture at 4:50, BEFORE you move the black lead to ground, WHERE are you actually connecting it on the real vehicle? Your picture makes it look like you're connecting to a ground terminal on the starter, but starters DON'T have ground terminals, because they are always grounded through the engine block. Could you explain this please? If you are connecting the lead in the first setup to engine block ground, then what ground are you moving it to that's DIFFERENT at 4:58?
+jawojnicki I work on heavy vehicles. Our starters *do* have a ground stud. If not, ground to a spot as close to the chassis as possible - but just make sure you're on a clean spot.
I will check, but my thought is that the clicking can also be the pinion gear of the starter *trying* to turn over the flywheel, but it doesnt have enough power to do so. (perhaps due to something wrong with the engine itself). Wouldn't you agree that there are two types of clicks one could hear in a starting system, the pinion gear itself, and the solenoid?
I think most car starters though do not have a grounding cable, and the ground is obtained thru the housing which in turn is bolted to the engine. That's why i figured the only way to know for sure if you have a grounding cable problem is to move that lead all the way to the battery terminal. Then if you get a good reading, you can then check out the negative battery cable and its connection to the block. Do large vehicles actually have a grounding wire for the starters?
At 5:00 when you move the black lead to ground, does that imply you move it to the negative battery terminal? Otherwise if you just move it to a convenient engine ground, you won't really be testing the integrity of the ground cable, you will almost be repeating what you already did by testing at the starter ground (which in reality if usually the starter case).
In the starter motor voltage drop case, it is quite possible that the solenoid switching terminals are dropping volts due to poor/burnt contacts. So it needs a ground/earth connection to the voltmeter then testing to the input to the solenoid and the input to the motor to see if the solenoid terminals are dropping volts. More or less the same as you have been saying in your videos.
It's a matter of proximity. Also, any groung will isolate the ground from the starter. Remember, this is large vehicle-based. The battery is a better secondary ground, but if it's in the cables you're going to visually inspect 100% of the wiring anyway. Battery negative is best - any ground will work operationally.
I'm happy to help, but you'll have to excuse me that I don't speculate. It is or it isn't. The more things you rule out, the closer you get to the answer. You use words that suggest you're speculating - that's the one thing I preach against in electrical diagnostics. Don't speculate - test. Diagnostics isn't faith-based, it's fact-based. Rule out what's working right and all that's left is what's not. Pretty simple really.
Yeah - but the point of these tests is to rule out what's working. It's easy to pull a starter and check gear condition - both on the pinion and flywheel. Hard to believe that would last 7 years, though I guess it could. The voltage drop test rules in or out the solenoid coil circuit. I'd want to clean a connection for free before replacing a bunch of parts unnecessarily. You should diagnose from facts, not speculation. If the pinion is grinding I'd expect metal in the starter.
Yeah - that's a problem. I didn't actually have a broken truck. The truck in the video also would crank, so its isn't the best illustration. Remember that this test will only be done when the starter is turning sluggishly. If it is, it can only be the batteries, the cables, or the starter. The starter voltage drop test is designed to decide between those three. If both numbers are the same = no corrosion/lost voltage. Good battery voltage = not the battery. All that's left is the starter.
Starter doesn't click - solenoid clicks from low voltage. Check all the wires for corrosion before anything else. If the start doesn't turn the voltage drop test can't work. If possible, check the voltage on BOTH solenoid terminals during crank. You should see 12V in and 0V out. If either of these two numbers is wrong, that's the side where the problem is. Make sure the voltmeter is connected to the solenoid posts - not the terminals. Let me know what you get.
I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. IF YOU STOP SHOUTING AND TELL ME IN CLEAR DETAIL WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, I'LL BE HAPPY TO HELP YOU. I really have no idea what you're talking about. I haven't removed any videos.
I have to feed a 6'4" 15 year-old 7000 calories a day --- would you be willing to pay $10 for an app that would provide lifetime electrical training from me?
1. I assume we're both talking about the same thing when we say "post"and "terminal". Ideally you'll have all leads on the threaded posts -- if you can't, there are ways to improve the test. I have battery nuts with tapped holes for set screws. You can also loosen the battery nuts and tighten them to clean them some. 2. No. he whole point of the test is to figure out why the starter isn't up to speed. If it's using all the normal available voltage, but slow, it can't be batteries or cables.
Hi Daniel. I wondering if you would be so kind and give an opinion on my below quandary please? I have a fault on my Piaggio 125 Scooter (either charging system/battery?) and wanted to test if the 6 cell 12v 11amp hr @ 10hr. rate wet battery was ok, by charging the battery and letting it stand on my kitchen worktop and monitor it's loss of voltage over time. Below are the results. Is it possible to rule out the battery with these results please? (To save buying a new one if indeed it's another fault) After charging it read 12.90v 3.5 hours later 12.64v 18 hours later 12.38v 22 hours later 12.34v 24 hours later 12.31v (- 0.59v over 24 hrs) 31 hours later 12.28v 48 hours later 12.27v (- 0.63v over 48 hrs) (Then held 12.27v over the next 3 days) The scoot was cranking without spark. Below is the list of events... EM light - pulled over - wouldn't turn over - jump off car battery (Reversed polarity) whilst starting bike also - Took out battery - Replaced 20a battery fuse - noticed cells needed topping quite a bit and topped up - recharged battery - crank without spark - checked plug, and it sparked - Filled plug hole with gas - got it going first time - 10 mile run - next day 1 mile run, but wouldn't start again after switching off then immediately on. Thanks for your consideration...great tutorials BTW.
Thanks for the video. Any suggestions on the best way to test a slow cranking starter on a Lexus or Toyota V8 that is buried under the intake manifold with no access to the starter cables?
I guess in this case the best one can reasonably do is a current draw test since doing the voltage drop test is not possible if accessing the starter cables requires removing the whole air intake, fuel injectors, and a bunch of other essentials. It's unfortunate that the cables aren't accessible in these designs.
Would you please clear why the manufactuer REMY wants a Carbon Pile tester only with measuring volt drop. I have your book pg 168 and nothing about carbon pile. Why are the totally maxing out the wire for really no reason. I am confused and please respond. I have your probe test leads also hope you and snap-on figure something o8ut
hunkydude what parts do you think are different? I work on everything in the fleet from small gasoline air compressors, the owner's family cars, his boat, company ATV's, backhoes, dozers, loaders and the dump trucks.
What you suggest isn't necessary. If you do the test properly the numbers will be correct without having to test the cables. That's the point of doing it this way. As for an acceptable drop - the industry standard is 2% of source voltage. If it isn't broken, we wouldn't be there.
I was having a tough time understand proper voltage ranges. I watched another video from eric the car guy. he said not more than .7v for the positive side. and not more than .24v on the negative side.
Yes. Another thing I noticed over the years is that I would not have this random clicking issue during the colder winter months, but would do it in the summer. Nowadays it seems about the same, either season. I think metals conduct better at lower temperatures, so this might in fact point to a wiring corrosion issue...and now years later, even the lower temps can't overcome the resistance because more metal has corroded.
Would you do this test if the starter clicks, but is unable to spin the motor - BUT if you keep trying, it will turn over and not sluggishly? I have had this nagging problem for 7 years now. Typically a clicking starter means it is toast, but I highly doubt it in my case. My only thought now is that the starter is unable to crank the engine at its highest resistance point (for whatever reason), and the repeat tries actually slowly get it past that sweet spot then it turns over perfectly.
I bought the FET book as well as the LoadPRO and want to diagnose a starter circuit. (good book). Does the LoadPRO change any of the steps in this video? I *think* the LoadPRO eliminates the need to crank the starter since it puts juice in the circuit itself, but I was not positive (no pun intended).
THIS SUCKS!!!!! i SEEN THE VIDTO WHERE ALL THIS WAS EXPLAINED FROM THE BEGINNING TO THE END!!!! wHERE IS THE ORGINAL VIDEO???? The guy in the vid drew up a bunch of stuff "WHICH WAS EXPLAINED EFFECTIVE AND CORRECTLY!!! WHERE CAN I FIND THE ORIGINAL VIDEO???? THE WAY IT WAS EXPLAINED IN THE ORIGINAL VIDEO WORKS JUST AS WELL!!!!!!! WHERES THE ORIGINAL VIDEO??????
Hey Dan, I note some discrepancies from the FET book and this lesson I built the "DLRVML" from pg.169 own the TMX-589 kit have read your book through twice now and watched all your videos... two points of confusion in this one. 1. "Test from the post not the terminal" The DLRVML must attach to the terminals. 2. In truck/ cranking test volt readings same... (Drawing stated defective starter if voltage is same?) clearly starter is cranking up to speed? Workarounds and explanation for these?
Back when I didn't know much about cars (7 years ago), I had replaced the starter because of this symptom. Since I still had the problem even with a new starter, I would say it has to either be wiring or the engine condition. I know I need to do this test, been avoiding it due to not having leads long enough, and the starter is under the intake, PLUS the fact that it can turn over just fine one time, but need 4-5 clicks the next. .
Awesome stuff, keep it up. I agree with martyisabeliever, I noticed at the end when the tech was cranking the starter both voltages were the same, How can that be if you are supposed to change the starter if both are the same voltage? I'm i missing something?
Hi, After watching lot of vidoes in years, i find your solution to be more realistics.. I do see one issue, I may be wrong but need ur advise, if my starter is bad pulling lot of amps, will it bring good battery voltage below 9.7 and if i check voltage in battery and starter i would see (example 8.4 volt in both battery and starter) . so if i go with your definition i might think battery is bad, but it is good, because starter is bad it is pulling good battery voltage less than 9.7 during crank. any thought process or am i thinking something wrong.
It seems to me that your battery is under rated or on the verge of going bad. It may have enough to run the starter now, but it may be just a matter of time. The starter is pulling more current than it should so it will of course load the battery more than normal and Just my opinion. I could be wrong.
Hi, my voltage reading on my motorbike battery reads 12v, however when I press start button the voltage drops to 3v and the bike fails to turn over. It's a new battery and starter solenoid so I know these are not the problem. Bike people are unsure of the problem and after seeing your video I thought if anyone had a good idea of what problem may be it's you! Hope you can help! Great video by the way, simple yet effective.
Hi, thanks for your reply, after a full day of stripping my bike I am still no better off. I have changed the starter motor now along with the battery and starter relay. Now when I press the start button the solenoid in the starter relay rattles like a rattle snakes tail and still the bike fails to start. I've checked wires for breaks or poor connections but all seems o.k! I feel I'm overlooking something or what test to try next! Any help much appreciated, cheers.
+Blake Corcoran Ultimately the test in this video is all you have. If you have a voltmeter, read the voltage DROP across the starter POSTS while cranking. If that number is more than 2% less than the same reading across the battery during crank you still have corrosion. Without that test you're in the dark.
I rebuilt my starter on a Honda CB360. Long story, shortened. The starter does not turn. I tested for resistance between the ground wired at the battery and the positive terminal stud and get 0. I assembled it wrong?
The motor should have continuity, so 0.0Ω may not be "wrong", but it's low. However, the wires inside are big, so unless you're rounding and not saying 0.4Ω or something, then I can't be sure. I'd have to see a picture of the end cap removed and your wiring connections. dan@brighterideas.com.
Yes - but by moving the probe you isolate the ground cable from the (+) if there is a separate ground cable. If not, you need to be grounded on the frame of the starter as close to the engine as possible.
I have a 63 Cadillac Deville. I drove it in the morning then tried to start it later that day and nothing happens when I turn it over. No sound but can see dash light dime when I turn it over. I thought it was the solenoid and replaced it but didn't help. Then I found this form and tried what you mentioned. There is zero voltage drop at the battery when I turn it over. I tested the power cable to solenoid like you said and it's the same 12.9 voltage. You said if they were the same voltage it was a bad starter but there is no voltage drop. Does this make any sense to you? I even tried the start terminal on the solenoid and had it turned over and there was no voltage which makes me think that it has a bad wire and it's not closing the internal switch on solenoid for power to come through or is this still a bad starter? I'm confused and anyone that can help would be much appreciated. Especially Dan because he seems to know his stuff. Bought the car and have barely drove it and I just want to go for a cruise. Thanks, Sam
+Sam Lions Always assume wiring. ZERO voltage drop is an open.The first question is what is the voltage at the battery before and during crank? Make sure you're on the battery posts.
I'm on the posts and its 12.96 volts before and after cranking motor. There is voltage at ignition, at battery and at power lug on solenoid coming from battery but nothing at start terminal when I crank it over. I'm thinking it would have to be in the start terminal wire but not sure. Is there anyway to know for sure which wire it is?
This was very useful for me last week. 99 Suburban, no crank. Positive cable looked fine, but VD test showed 10.5V. I couldn't believe all that V dropped through a fat cable that looked fine, even at the connections. Sure enough, changing the positive wire fixed it. Saved me a ton of time. The cable runs by the exhaust manifold, and it was stiff. I assume the heat cooked it and somehow ruined it's conductivity.
A Doosan excavator, Isuzu NPR truck and Skytrak forlift all use car style batter with lead post with the cables connected there is no where to clamp the multimeter leads to the post and often the studs on starters solenoids are too crowded with cable terminals to clip a clamp on the stud only .. So your advise to attach to the post and stud only , in my experience is not real world encounter
Yes - it's critical. Electrical diagnostics is about the smallest details - not big-assed bolts and mud. That's hard to teach. Ask yourself how many times you'll likely have to do this test on this machine. Isn't it worth it to spend ±30 minutes to set it up so your answer is perfect? Who the hell ever said you had to have electrical faults repaired in 19.6 seconds??? If you figure out the cables are dirty in 30 mins and you solve the problem, isn't that better than a new starter and/or battery(ies), 3 hours, and $1000? Electrical diagnostics requires you to have the same balls and arrogant stance as you would mechanically.
Sorry just a little confused re reasons for not needing third step to check solenoid specifically, e.g what will the meter read if the solenoid is defective in the first instance, how will it show up a solenoid fault ? would there just be no voltage drop at all in that instance ? great tutorial thank you
+Brett Meehan You can test the solenoid contacts - but it's optional this way. If you don't use these connections - the solenoid test is required. Once you've determined it *is* the starter (motor + solenoid) the 3rd test will isolate the fault to the contacts - if that matters to you.
+Daniel Sullivan ok thanks for the reply Daniel, i see what you're saying. I would like to check if fault is in the motor or solenoid, would that be some kind of continuity test ?
No - voltage drop. Think of it this way. The motor + contacts = STARTER UNIT. If the unit has failed, the drop in the contacts + the drop in the motor MUST = total voltage drop. If the motor is using 4V, and the contacts are using 6V, 6V + 4V = 10V. The full voltage in the starter unit means the starter has failed. Reading each individual drop (contacts and motor) will point to the failed part. In short - ANY drop ACROSS the contacts means they've failed.
+Daniel Sullivan thanks again for your time you must be a busy guy, yes reading those individual drops (contact and motor) is where i need guidance as to where to put probes etc. , I understand things in diagrams way better it seems, this would be great in a video with illustrations, anyway, looking forward to part 3 of your 'no crank slow crank' video , all the best
Speculation can be very expensive! I like what you have said there. I'm the kind of guy that cleans up the mess from speculating, from all the guesses based on what happened to someone else. And assumptions that aren't based on facts. I'm reminded of the car that wouldn't start and all the crazy ideas of why it wouldn't, including one guy who was sure the lifters had gone bad, when all it really needed was gas! Troubleshooting is all about removing possibilities of what may be wrong.
you should just point to a finished drawing as you talk . following your monologue and watching you complete your drawing as you speak is difficult. Also your going to fast. At the end your all's your saying is that the starter and solenoid are one with this test , right? These days the contact washers are junk I'm told. The test to isolate them would be good to see.
my car just clicks when you try to start it,the battery and starter have been replaced with new ones,all the earths have checked,but it will turn over and start if you put a boost pack onto it
not the earth cables as I put a jump lead to the body of the starter and the other end on a lot different earth points still the same, it has 12v to the exciter wire and the main feed to the starter just cant get a reading when its clicking because everything loses power when it clicks, also tried some new relays for the ignition and the starter as it seemed like these were not staying closed
mike doblo The clicks usually are low voltage - due to high current. Coil of solenoid engages starter, starter draws massive current (slower starter = higher amps), and low voltage causes coil to disengage. Bottom line is that if the cranking system is essentially new - as it sounds - you need to make sure the engine will actually move. A seized engine has the same signs.
If it starts with a jump, how can the starter be faulty? Think this through. Factor out everything that does work - even intermittently - then what's left is the problem...
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If the starter is sluggish (the whole point of the test), and both voltages are the same, then there's no voltage missing. That means there's no voltage lost in the cables. If the voltage is high enough, it isn't the battery. The only other possible fault is the starter. Low voltage during crank? Battery. Different voltages? Cables. Good battery and same voltage? Starter. Would you expect a 12V starter to work well on less than 12V?
What's a ground?
This is true. However, in the field, the first determination is whether it's batteries, cables or starter. Then you can make a more exact determination. The point of my method is to avoid excessive testing. If a person felt that the solenoid contacts are the problem, they could simply move the lead from the ground of the motor to the input to the motor (bottom solenoid terminal) and repeat the test. If you do this 1st, it requires more time and more testing, especially since cables fail most.
Best video on how to troubleshoot a starter; and by the way, your LoadPro tool kicks Power Probe's ass so far the tool has worked fine. Thank You for the videos
it's tempting to condemn a component when you can, because , let's face it, it's WAY more fun and satisfying to get to replace a component. But in my experience, Dan is 100% right. 90% or more of the time, I've fixed starting issues SIMPLY by cleaning up or tightening or repairing CONNECTIONS, and NOT components. Any avid DIYer will know this, but anyone who is a newbie at this, pay attention to this advice. It will SAVE you tons of time, and money. Great Job Dan. Thanks.
I think I know what you mean, but I would never refer to a coil and contacts in the same description. The reason I check at the top positive post of the starter is to include the starter "solenoid" contacts in the test. That way, you only need 2 tests, and if the contacts are affected, then they show up as a starter failure since they're technically a part of the starter. They can be cleaned, and if the starter is the problem, it is worth a quick 3rd test to see if the contacts are clean.
Great video!
All I can say is you have to do a very, very, very thorough visual inspection of the cables to and from the starter. Do you see anything green? Do you see anything black, crispy or split? Not just the outer surfaces -- inside the cable. If it isn't much money, replace all the cables if you suspect anything. Next, you need to do the starter voltage drop test --- if I were there that's all I would do. If the cables and battery are good it's the starter. OR - the engine has too much friction.
@andres220 I work mostly with large frame engines, which have ground cables. If you're working on a car, you need to place the ground probe on the starter frame attached to the engine.
hi Dan great video as always, one question, thus voltage drop is done with the engine cranking rigth? you dont specified in the video how is done , please explain us . thank you I'm learning name Lot from our videos, l keep up the good work buddy
It is amazing that a wire can look fine and be useless. Glad the process worked for you. It's pretty simple when you think about it. Wires and other non-functional components (fuses, switches, connections, etc) shouldn't use energy, and hence shouldn't drop voltage. Good job. Cheaper than a starter or battery, huh?
Hello, I have a voltmeter in my car, when I start the engine the reading was 13.8 volts and suddenly drops to 12.8 volts and after that it reads 13.8 volts again. My rpm is going wild and it has a misfire. Is it the alternator or the starter? because sometimes when the engine is hot it won't start, it just clicks. (fyi: I already clean the fuel injector; replace the battery, distributor cap, spark plug wires, spark plug, air filter, fuel filter, and upgrade to guage 4 grounding wires)
Sorry for the delay - been away. Can't be alternator - and those readings are normal. In fact, only dropping to 12.8V is pretty good! Drops from 13V to 9V are sometimes normal.
hi good video, did the meter show both the same voltage on battery and starter, and if so, how could the starter be cranking like it was, when you mention if they are the same the starter is bad, what am I missing, thanks,
Sorry you didn't get more out of it. This was one of the early videos I did with minimal training and equipment. I was also experimenting. I hope the later videos are more to your liking. Thx.
just bought my Loadpro 181 and eager to put it to the test. Will be building that test switch. Great job on presentation and all the best on your patent. After 30yrs in the field your hard work is finally paying off. I am in the HVAC field now and working with low voltage 24VAC. The loadpro is for a 12VDC system but the troubleshooting techniques are similar and could also apply if just testing wiring harnesses and short circuits in any system.
Great job Dan and all the best
Actually - you'll be happy to know that it's good to 28.5V. I've used it successfully in HVAC environments, including a few days ago when my furnace crapped out. It was a seized fan motor but I tested the transformer right away and determined that the control voltage was working. Thanks for the support. Let me know if you have questions.
In your picture at 4:50, BEFORE you move the black lead to ground, WHERE are you actually connecting it on the real vehicle? Your picture makes it look like you're connecting to a ground terminal on the starter, but starters DON'T have ground terminals, because they are always grounded through the engine block. Could you explain this please? If you are connecting the lead in the first setup to engine block ground, then what ground are you moving it to that's DIFFERENT at 4:58?
+jawojnicki I work on heavy vehicles. Our starters *do* have a ground stud. If not, ground to a spot as close to the chassis as possible - but just make sure you're on a clean spot.
+Daniel Sullivan Good video! But, if the starter it's grounded through the engine block, we are not able to run this test at 4:58... Right?
Great video. Does anyone know of auto videos like this where you get a little lecture and then see the procedure performed on a live video?
great video dan like your style got your book from aeswave love it
I will check, but my thought is that the clicking can also be the pinion gear of the starter *trying* to turn over the flywheel, but it doesnt have enough power to do so. (perhaps due to something wrong with the engine itself). Wouldn't you agree that there are two types of clicks one could hear in a starting system, the pinion gear itself, and the solenoid?
Anybody who's ever pulled a Cummins starter to find out it was a bad cable has to love that switch idea.
What a great explanation. Thank you very much!!!
I think most car starters though do not have a grounding cable, and the ground is obtained thru the housing which in turn is bolted to the engine. That's why i figured the only way to know for sure if you have a grounding cable problem is to move that lead all the way to the battery terminal. Then if you get a good reading, you can then check out the negative battery cable and its connection to the block. Do large vehicles actually have a grounding wire for the starters?
At 5:00 when you move the black lead to ground, does that imply you move it to the negative battery terminal? Otherwise if you just move it to a convenient engine ground, you won't really be testing the integrity of the ground cable, you will almost be repeating what you already did by testing at the starter ground (which in reality if usually the starter case).
Can you show us test with good starter
Diferent volt between battery and starter ?
In the starter motor voltage drop case, it is quite possible that the solenoid switching terminals are dropping volts due to poor/burnt contacts. So it needs a ground/earth connection to the voltmeter then testing to the input to the solenoid and the input to the motor to see if the solenoid terminals are dropping volts. More or less the same as you have been saying in your videos.
Dan great info! Quick question at 5:00 min "Move the black lead to ground" from the starter ground. Ground where? To the frame or .......?
Ideally you'd go to the battery ground POST. If not possible then the best possible ground. This isolates the (+) cable.
It's a matter of proximity. Also, any groung will isolate the ground from the starter. Remember, this is large vehicle-based. The battery is a better secondary ground, but if it's in the cables you're going to visually inspect 100% of the wiring anyway. Battery negative is best - any ground will work operationally.
I'm happy to help, but you'll have to excuse me that I don't speculate. It is or it isn't. The more things you rule out, the closer you get to the answer. You use words that suggest you're speculating - that's the one thing I preach against in electrical diagnostics. Don't speculate - test. Diagnostics isn't faith-based, it's fact-based. Rule out what's working right and all that's left is what's not. Pretty simple really.
Yeah - but the point of these tests is to rule out what's working. It's easy to pull a starter and check gear condition - both on the pinion and flywheel. Hard to believe that would last 7 years, though I guess it could. The voltage drop test rules in or out the solenoid coil circuit. I'd want to clean a connection for free before replacing a bunch of parts unnecessarily. You should diagnose from facts, not speculation. If the pinion is grinding I'd expect metal in the starter.
Yeah - that's a problem. I didn't actually have a broken truck. The truck in the video also would crank, so its isn't the best illustration. Remember that this test will only be done when the starter is turning sluggishly. If it is, it can only be the batteries, the cables, or the starter. The starter voltage drop test is designed to decide between those three. If both numbers are the same = no corrosion/lost voltage. Good battery voltage = not the battery. All that's left is the starter.
Starter doesn't click - solenoid clicks from low voltage. Check all the wires for corrosion before anything else. If the start doesn't turn the voltage drop test can't work. If possible, check the voltage on BOTH solenoid terminals during crank. You should see 12V in and 0V out. If either of these two numbers is wrong, that's the side where the problem is. Make sure the voltmeter is connected to the solenoid posts - not the terminals. Let me know what you get.
I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. IF YOU STOP SHOUTING AND TELL ME IN CLEAR DETAIL WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, I'LL BE HAPPY TO HELP YOU. I really have no idea what you're talking about. I haven't removed any videos.
I have to feed a 6'4" 15 year-old 7000 calories a day --- would you be willing to pay $10 for an app that would provide lifetime electrical training from me?
They're available online and on all of the tool trucks. Search Fundamental Electrical Troubleshooting. Thanks.
1. I assume we're both talking about the same thing when we say "post"and "terminal". Ideally you'll have all leads on the threaded posts -- if you can't, there are ways to improve the test. I have battery nuts with tapped holes for set screws. You can also loosen the battery nuts and tighten them to clean them some. 2. No. he whole point of the test is to figure out why the starter isn't up to speed. If it's using all the normal available voltage, but slow, it can't be batteries or cables.
Can I use the loadpro to do starter voltage drop test?!
Hi Daniel. I wondering if you would be so kind and give an opinion on my below quandary please?
I have a fault on my Piaggio 125 Scooter (either charging system/battery?) and wanted to test if the 6 cell 12v 11amp hr @ 10hr. rate wet battery was ok, by charging the battery and letting it stand on my kitchen worktop and monitor it's loss of voltage over time. Below are the results.
Is it possible to rule out the battery with these results please? (To save buying a new one if indeed it's another fault)
After charging it read 12.90v
3.5 hours later 12.64v
18 hours later 12.38v
22 hours later 12.34v
24 hours later 12.31v (- 0.59v over 24 hrs)
31 hours later 12.28v
48 hours later 12.27v (- 0.63v over 48 hrs)
(Then held 12.27v over the next 3 days)
The scoot was cranking without spark. Below is the list of events...
EM light - pulled over - wouldn't turn over - jump off car battery (Reversed polarity) whilst starting bike also - Took out battery - Replaced 20a battery fuse - noticed cells needed topping quite a bit and topped up - recharged battery - crank without spark - checked plug, and it sparked - Filled plug hole with gas - got it going first time - 10 mile run - next day 1 mile run, but wouldn't start again after switching off then immediately on.
Thanks for your consideration...great tutorials BTW.
Thanks for the video. Any suggestions on the best way to test a slow cranking starter on a Lexus or Toyota V8 that is buried under the intake manifold with no access to the starter cables?
SIUAWYAO - suck it up and work your ass off. but, if you do the test right, you will NOT make the wrong repair decision.
I guess in this case the best one can reasonably do is a current draw test since doing the voltage drop test is not possible if accessing the starter cables requires removing the whole air intake, fuel injectors, and a bunch of other essentials. It's unfortunate that the cables aren't accessible in these designs.
Would you please clear why the manufactuer REMY wants a Carbon Pile tester only with measuring volt drop. I have your book pg 168 and nothing about carbon pile. Why are the totally maxing out the wire for really no reason. I am confused and please respond. I have your probe test leads also hope you and snap-on figure something o8ut
hunkydude what parts do you think are different? I work on everything in the fleet from small gasoline air compressors, the owner's family cars, his boat, company ATV's, backhoes, dozers, loaders and the dump trucks.
also test from + from batt and + from starter. then test -batt and -starter
What you suggest isn't necessary. If you do the test properly the numbers will be correct without having to test the cables. That's the point of doing it this way. As for an acceptable drop - the industry standard is 2% of source voltage. If it isn't broken, we wouldn't be there.
Great Video on voltage drop
I was having a tough time understand proper voltage ranges. I watched another video from eric the car guy. he said not more than .7v for the positive side. and not more than .24v on the negative side.
Yes. Another thing I noticed over the years is that I would not have this random clicking issue during the colder winter months, but would do it in the summer. Nowadays it seems about the same, either season. I think metals conduct better at lower temperatures, so this might in fact point to a wiring corrosion issue...and now years later, even the lower temps can't overcome the resistance because more metal has corroded.
10v volts on main cable 2 volts on ignition circuit and fixed 12 volt system only amps will vary
Would you do this test if the starter clicks, but is unable to spin the motor - BUT if you keep trying, it will turn over and not sluggishly? I have had this nagging problem for 7 years now. Typically a clicking starter means it is toast, but I highly doubt it in my case. My only thought now is that the starter is unable to crank the engine at its highest resistance point (for whatever reason), and the repeat tries actually slowly get it past that sweet spot then it turns over perfectly.
I bought the FET book as well as the LoadPRO and want to diagnose a starter circuit. (good book). Does the LoadPRO change any of the steps in this video? I *think* the LoadPRO eliminates the need to crank the starter since it puts juice in the circuit itself, but I was not positive (no pun intended).
THIS SUCKS!!!!! i SEEN THE VIDTO WHERE ALL THIS WAS EXPLAINED FROM THE BEGINNING TO THE END!!!! wHERE IS THE ORGINAL VIDEO???? The guy in the vid drew up a bunch of stuff "WHICH WAS EXPLAINED EFFECTIVE AND CORRECTLY!!! WHERE CAN I FIND THE ORIGINAL VIDEO???? THE WAY IT WAS EXPLAINED IN THE ORIGINAL VIDEO WORKS JUST AS WELL!!!!!!! WHERES THE ORIGINAL VIDEO??????
Hey Dan, I note some discrepancies from the FET book and this lesson I built the "DLRVML" from pg.169 own the TMX-589 kit have read your book through twice now and watched all your videos... two points of confusion in this one. 1. "Test from the post not the terminal" The DLRVML must attach to the terminals. 2. In truck/ cranking test volt readings same... (Drawing stated defective starter if voltage is same?) clearly starter is cranking up to speed? Workarounds and explanation for these?
Did you change the solenoid too when you changed the starter?
Back when I didn't know much about cars (7 years ago), I had replaced the starter because of this symptom. Since I still had the problem even with a new starter, I would say it has to either be wiring or the engine condition. I know I need to do this test, been avoiding it due to not having leads long enough, and the starter is under the intake, PLUS the fact that it can turn over just fine one time, but need 4-5 clicks the next. .
i think this guy work on semi's dont think an auto enthusits would get much out of this lecture.
Awesome stuff, keep it up. I agree with martyisabeliever, I noticed at the end when the tech was cranking the starter both voltages were the same, How can that be if you are supposed to change the starter if both are the same voltage? I'm i missing something?
Good book only mine came in black and white.
I don't understand what you mean.
in the first example (10v,10v) you said that the starter is using all of the voltage. Don't you mean none of the voltage?
Ground cable? I thought starters were grounded through the engine?
Yes. Thats my opinion too. Volts here show unwanted resistance through poor or burned contacts.
Why posts and not terminals, is that to rule out a possible cable connection issue?
Hi, After watching lot of vidoes in years, i find your solution to be more realistics.. I do see one issue, I may be wrong but need ur advise, if my starter is bad pulling lot of amps, will it bring good battery voltage below 9.7 and if i check voltage in battery and starter i would see (example 8.4 volt in both battery and starter) . so if i go with your definition i might think battery is bad, but it is good, because starter is bad it is pulling good battery voltage less than 9.7 during crank. any thought process or am i thinking something wrong.
It seems to me that your battery is under rated or on the verge of going bad. It may have enough to run the starter now, but it may be just a matter of time. The starter is pulling more current than it should so it will of course load the battery more than normal and
Just my opinion. I could be wrong.
What will the meters show if the starter has a short in the motor windings
Hi, my voltage reading on my motorbike battery reads 12v, however when I press start button the voltage drops to 3v and the bike fails to turn over. It's a new battery and starter solenoid so I know these are not the problem. Bike people are unsure of the problem and after seeing your video I thought if anyone had a good idea of what problem may be it's you! Hope you can help! Great video by the way, simple yet effective.
+Blake Corcoran Wire faults are either invisible or overlooked. Make sure the wiring is perfect. Silicone spray. Tight and clean.
Hi, thanks for your reply, after a full day of stripping my bike I am still no better off. I have changed the starter motor now along with the battery and starter relay. Now when I press the start button the solenoid in the starter relay rattles like a rattle snakes tail and still the bike fails to start. I've checked wires for breaks or poor connections but all seems o.k! I feel I'm overlooking something or what test to try next! Any help much appreciated, cheers.
+Blake Corcoran Ultimately the test in this video is all you have. If you have a voltmeter, read the voltage DROP across the starter POSTS while cranking. If that number is more than 2% less than the same reading across the battery during crank you still have corrosion. Without that test you're in the dark.
I rebuilt my starter on a Honda CB360. Long story, shortened. The starter does not turn. I tested for resistance between the ground wired at the battery and the positive terminal stud and get 0. I assembled it wrong?
The motor should have continuity, so 0.0Ω may not be "wrong", but it's low. However, the wires inside are big, so unless you're rounding and not saying 0.4Ω or something, then I can't be sure. I'd have to see a picture of the end cap removed and your wiring connections. dan@brighterideas.com.
How did you keep the diesel engine from starting while taking the advanced voltmeter reading? (6:58) (pg 169)
I disabled the fuel. In a real situation the assumption is the starting will be sluggish - which is why you're there in the first place.
Hello Sir. I am trying to understand when you said you move the cable to ground. Isn't the cable already grounded to the motor case or motor bolt?
Yes - but by moving the probe you isolate the ground cable from the (+) if there is a separate ground cable. If not, you need to be grounded on the frame of the starter as close to the engine as possible.
Does temperature affect a circuit?? if it does please explain how..
confusing
What?
hi Dan can I use one dmm for voltage drop on the starter? instead of two? thank you dan
Sure - test the starter first, then the battery; put the probes on the posts of the components.
I have a 63 Cadillac Deville. I drove it in the morning then tried to start it later that day and nothing happens when I turn it over. No sound but can see dash light dime when I turn it over. I thought it was the solenoid and replaced it but didn't help. Then I found this form and tried what you mentioned. There is zero voltage drop at the battery when I turn it over. I tested the power cable to solenoid like you said and it's the same 12.9 voltage. You said if they were the same voltage it was a bad starter but there is no voltage drop. Does this make any sense to you? I even tried the start terminal on the solenoid and had it turned over and there was no voltage which makes me think that it has a bad wire and it's not closing the internal switch on solenoid for power to come through or is this still a bad starter? I'm confused and anyone that can help would be much appreciated. Especially Dan because he seems to know his stuff. Bought the car and have barely drove it and I just want to go for a cruise. Thanks, Sam
+Sam Lions Always assume wiring. ZERO voltage drop is an open.The first question is what is the voltage at the battery before and during crank? Make sure you're on the battery posts.
I'm on the posts and its 12.96 volts before and after cranking motor. There is voltage at ignition, at battery and at power lug on solenoid coming from battery but nothing at start terminal when I crank it over. I'm thinking it would have to be in the start terminal wire but not sure. Is there anyway to know for sure which wire it is?
great----i like this type of video
This was very useful for me last week.
99 Suburban, no crank. Positive cable looked fine, but VD test showed 10.5V. I couldn't believe all that V dropped through a fat cable that looked fine, even at the connections.
Sure enough, changing the positive wire fixed it. Saved me a ton of time.
The cable runs by the exhaust manifold, and it was stiff. I assume the heat cooked it and somehow ruined it's conductivity.
Not rounding. 0.0.
A Doosan excavator, Isuzu NPR truck and Skytrak forlift all use car style batter with lead post with the cables connected there is no where to clamp the multimeter leads to the post and often the studs on starters solenoids are too crowded with cable terminals to clip a clamp on the stud only .. So your advise to attach to the post and stud only , in my experience is not real world encounter
bob brawley 1/8" drill, #8 self-tapping screw. I do it all the time.
OK thankyou. . So its important enough to drill andattach a screw to clamp to
Yes - it's critical. Electrical diagnostics is about the smallest details - not big-assed bolts and mud. That's hard to teach. Ask yourself how many times you'll likely have to do this test on this machine. Isn't it worth it to spend ±30 minutes to set it up so your answer is perfect? Who the hell ever said you had to have electrical faults repaired in 19.6 seconds??? If you figure out the cables are dirty in 30 mins and you solve the problem, isn't that better than a new starter and/or battery(ies), 3 hours, and $1000? Electrical diagnostics requires you to have the same balls and arrogant stance as you would mechanically.
interesting.... great video
Read them as the same.
Sorry just a little confused re reasons for not needing third step to check solenoid specifically, e.g what will the meter read if the solenoid is defective in the first instance, how will it show up a solenoid fault ? would there just be no voltage drop at all in that instance ? great tutorial thank you
+Brett Meehan You can test the solenoid contacts - but it's optional this way. If you don't use these connections - the solenoid test is required. Once you've determined it *is* the starter (motor + solenoid) the 3rd test will isolate the fault to the contacts - if that matters to you.
+Daniel Sullivan ok thanks for the reply Daniel, i see what you're saying. I would like to check if fault is in the motor or solenoid, would that be some kind of continuity test ?
No - voltage drop. Think of it this way. The motor + contacts = STARTER UNIT. If the unit has failed, the drop in the contacts + the drop in the motor MUST = total voltage drop. If the motor is using 4V, and the contacts are using 6V, 6V + 4V = 10V. The full voltage in the starter unit means the starter has failed. Reading each individual drop (contacts and motor) will point to the failed part. In short - ANY drop ACROSS the contacts means they've failed.
+Daniel Sullivan thanks again for your time you must be a busy guy, yes reading those individual drops (contact and motor) is where i need guidance as to where to put probes etc. , I understand things in diagrams way better it seems, this would be great in a video with illustrations, anyway, looking forward to part 3 of your 'no crank slow crank' video , all the best
Drop the base
ITT xD
Speculation can be very expensive! I like what you have said there.
I'm the kind of guy that cleans up the mess from speculating, from all the guesses based on what happened to someone else. And assumptions that aren't based on facts.
I'm reminded of the car that wouldn't start and all the crazy ideas of why it wouldn't, including one guy who was sure the lifters had gone bad, when all it really needed was gas!
Troubleshooting is all about removing possibilities of what may be wrong.
I got it Dan, engine has to be cranking , confirmed I'm sorry , cheers from ontario ca
After watching that vid, I know understand what you're saying
lol
you should just point to a finished drawing as you talk . following your monologue and watching you complete your drawing as you speak is difficult. Also your going to fast. At the end your all's your saying is that the starter and solenoid are one with this test , right? These days the contact washers are junk I'm told. The test to isolate them would be good to see.
my car just clicks when you try to start it,the battery and starter have been replaced with new ones,all the earths have checked,but it will turn over and start if you put a boost pack onto it
It has to be cables. There are 3 things - batteries, starter and cables. You changed 2. What's left?
not the earth cables as I put a jump lead to the body of the starter and the other end on a lot different earth points still the same, it has 12v to the exciter wire and the main feed to the starter just cant get a reading when its clicking because everything loses power when it clicks, also tried some new relays for the ignition and the starter as it seemed like these were not staying closed
mike doblo The clicks usually are low voltage - due to high current. Coil of solenoid engages starter, starter draws massive current (slower starter = higher amps), and low voltage causes coil to disengage. Bottom line is that if the cranking system is essentially new - as it sounds - you need to make sure the engine will actually move. A seized engine has the same signs.
it will start up and run fine if i use a portable battery,but the more i think about it maybe its the new starter is faulty
If it starts with a jump, how can the starter be faulty? Think this through. Factor out everything that does work - even intermittently - then what's left is the problem...