Hello you savages. Get $350 off the Pod 4 Ultra at eightsleep.com/modernwisdom (use code MODERNWISDOM) Get up to 20% discount on the best supplements from Momentous at livemomentous.com/modernwisdom Get up to 40% off Mando’s Starter Pack at ShopMando.com (use code MODERNWISDOM) Get 50% off your first Factor Meals box at factormeals.com/MW50 Here's the timestamps: 0:00 Are We Seeing a Christian Revival? 07:53 What’s Causing the Rise of Cultural Christianity? 18:46 Is it Possible to Choose to Believe in God? 23:48 Has Christianity Gone Too Soft? 38:49 Experience of Visiting the Vatican 43:49 Is the Rise in Religion Just a Conservative Movement? 57:59 Christianity as a Prophylactic Against Woke 1:05:33 Why Isn’t There an Islamic Revival? 1:15:31 The Gnostic Gospels 1:27:28 The Gnostic Version of Genesis 1:35:47 Why the Bible is Compiled As it is 1:42:13 Christianity’s Antidote to the Meaning Crisis 1:52:40 Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s Debate With Dawkins 1:59:59 The Figureheads of the Christian Revival 2:06:44 Important Things Ignored by the Media 2:11:24 Where to Find Alex
God : "This last sin of despair is graver to me than all the other sins. Souls guilty of despair judge their misery greater than my mercy. (they are assuming Gods unforgiveness) The despair of Judas displeased me more and was more grave to my Son than was his betrayal of Him." Evil spirits of despair and infirmity want to inflict souls & trick them into believing in an unforgiving God. No repentant person will be turned away from God Dialogue of St. Catherine of Siena - catholic mystic. Last segment of clip - as per timestamp 16:34 from UA-cam video “What the Exorcists shared: Demons Masking as gods." From the channel Armor of God: Spiritual Warfare
A Devout Client of Mary Shall Never Suffer the Loss of His Soul There was a certain man who was religious in name only, but, wherever true religion was concerned, hard-hearted and careless. He was, however, in the habit of praying to the Blessed Virgin and saying once everyday a hundred “Hail, Mary’s.” Coming near his end, he was caught away in an ecstasy, and devils charged him before the Great Judge seeking a sentence that would adjudge him to be theirs. God, therefore, knowing his manifold sins, said that he must be condemned. Meantime the Blessed Virgin came offering schedules in which were contained all the “Hail Mary’s,” and begging her Son to allow him to receive a milder sentence. But the devils brought many books full of his sins. ‘The books on both sides were put into the scales, but the sins weighed most. Then the Blessed Virgin, seeing She was doing no good, earnestly besought her Son, saying: “Remember, Beloved, that Thou didst receive of my substance, visible, tangible and sensible substance; give to me one drop of Thy blood shed for sinners in Thy passion.” And he replied: “It is impossible to deny thee anything. Yet know that one drop of my blood weighs heavier than all the sins of the whole world. Receive therefore thy request.” Receiving it, She placed it in the scales, and all those sins of the religious weighed against it as light as ashes.‘Then the devils departed in confusion, crying out and saying: “The Lady is too merciful to Christians; we fail as often as She comes to contend with us.” And so the man’s spirit returned to his body, and on recovery he related the whole tale and became a true monk. Taken From The Glories of Mary By Saint Alphonsus Liguori ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Our Lady explains the Hail Mary to Saint Mechtilde of Helfta (1241-1298): “My daughter, I want you to know that no one can please me more than by saying Rosary. The salutation which the Most Adorable Trinity sent to me, and by which He raised me to the dignity of Mother of God. By the word 'Ave' (which is the name Eve, Eva), I learned that in His infinite power God had preserved me from all sin and its misery, which the first woman had brought upon herself. The name ‘Mary’ which means ‘Lady of Light’ shows that God has filled me with wisdom and light, like a shining star, to light up Heaven and Earth. The words ‘full of grace’ remind me that the Holy Spirit has showered so many graces upon me that I am able to give these graces in abundance to those who ask for them through me as Mediatrix. When people say the ‘Lord is with thee,’ they give to me again the indescribable joy that I received when the Eternal Word became incarnate in my womb. When you say to me ‘blessed art thou among women,’ I praise Almighty God’s Divine mercy which raised me to this exalted level of happiness. And at the words, ‘blessed is the Fruit of thy womb, Jesus,’ the whole of Heaven rejoices with me to see my Son Jesus Christ adored and glorified for having saved mankind.”
7:15 This guy alex is acting like an extraordinary smart person ever born on this planet... Alex were you there that time when that happen?? Can you tell me then what made these people to go away after Jesus had said something??? Dear alex the smartest guy please tell me what did Jesus said then that caused all these angry croud to turn away one by one????? His confidence of something not seen not heard by himself shames himself. Do you think alex these people carried a high-tech recorder to record everything????? Don't you know Alex that these are also humen beings?? Don't you know they started writing the Bible after a long time? Don't you know devine intervention was also there as well as human???
26:45 Alex you can't interpret or fram a religion based on what people do. That is silly to even think about. Do you depict and potray parents by what children are doing??? 😂😂😂😂😂
Two possibilities exist: either Alex becomes the greatest atheist of all time or the greatest Christian convert of all time. Both are equally terrifying.
@@Janus10001 I agree; I think there's a chance he'll convert at some point. I've seen a few videos like this with him and I do think he's more open to Christianity than he used to be, at least as I see it. I've noticed him almost arguing in favour of Jesus/Christianity and then kind of "correcting" himself with a dismissal of the underlying principles
Now how do you feel that I am one of these people who were driven to question our current reality and by simple observation have come to fully believe in a guiding God hand, and that Jesus was correct. You too can just observe who is happy. Who is. Ot, who is prospering who is not. All lies are being shown to be false, all narratives of man are falling apart.
I bet that the Viking wannabe that is Rationality Rules is silently fuming at the "soft touch" his atheist bestie is giving to Christianity. Alex isnt too far off heretic status among the anti-theists. 😜 Yeah...he gives it loads in debates, I feel to try to stick it to the fundamentalist in the US but he rather cosys up to his Catholic and Anglican brothers on this side of the pond. 😎
I think people are just getting tired with how degenerate society has become. From music, media, life, everything is over seggualized, people are cold blooded, selfish, and glorify manipulating and treating people like trash, etc. People get tired of that and end up craving stability, safety, and morals.
I don't think he has an opinion on a lot of it. Anytime he does give an opinion he is probably playing devils advocate. His position on God is he doesn't believe their is a God and he doesn't believe there is not a God and he doesn't believe there is any evidence (even hypothetical ) that could convince him either way. But he has fun analysis a lot of the theories behind them and poking holes in them, even though his theory that free will is not real some amount of logic twisting to make remotely plausible.
@@WeakeyedominantIt's very reasonable to assume that we do not have free will from the lens of determinism, which suggests that our thoughts and actions are influenced by a chain of prior causes-everything from our genetics to our environment shapes our decisions. If we think about how many factors are beyond our control, it raises the question of how "free" our choices truly are. Additionally, cognitive science has shown that many of our decisions are made subconsciously before we become aware of them. This doesn't negate our experiences or feelings of agency; rather, it offers a different perspective on how our minds operate. In this sense, questioning free will isn't about denying human experience, but rather seeking a deeper understanding of how our brains function within a larger framework of cause and effect.
As a Christian I really enjoy listening to Alex articulate his views regarding religion & Christianity in particular. Gives me great insight on how to approach non believers and atheists.
Agreed. He is a respectful, articulate and intelligent non believer. He gets the value of the Good News, even if he lacks faith in it. That's how we draw them in. Come for the cultural Christianity, stay for the salvation.
The most relevant "Will of the Father" is for us to return to Him. While returning to Him, we are embodying Him, and we resemble as much as possible with Him in mercy, in kindness, in forgiveness, in divine love, in the self sacrifice for the lost ones to return as the sons and daughters to their Maker.
@highroller-jq3ix Are you trying to gaslight me? Try harder! At least display your valuable logical thinking. So far, you only displayed empty words and unsustained labels.
In my opinion, Alex's understanding of Jesus in Christianity as the Word becoming flesh and the Quran in Islam as the Word becoming a book is profoundly perceptive. I have never heard anyone make this kind of comparison before.
@@chellya2004 Wanting to be sure if you were right, I looked it up. Apparently, Kenneth Cragg, an Anglican bishop and scholar, in his 1956 book, "The Call of the Minaret," made this description of the two. Now I know.
@@stevesmith4901 Theodore Noldeke pointed to this distinction between the two religions 150 years ago. Scholastic philosopher Thomas Aquinas comes pretty close too,almost 800 years ago.
That’s not a point against Alex though, it just means he is well read and agrees with key thinkers throughout history. So he’s probably right on the point.
@@wessjr08 True, but if this had been an original observation by Alex, it would have been phenomenal. I was under the impression that it was. So, I'm just slightly disappointed, that's all. Regardless, Alex is still pretty insightful on religion.
I'm a Christian, and these are two of the most interesting people on the planet. I love both Chris and Alex's approach to these ideas. I hope they are a bridge for my generation for a higher value of ethics.
I'd love that but I think fear still rules the decisions of most people and, even worse perhaps, people who are in denial that they are ruled by fear. Basically animals with weapons of mass destruction. But did Jesus not say, "Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness..." He did NOT say, "Blessed are those *who persecute others* because of righteousness..."
@@louisdeniau8571 dont believe in him, i believe in Jesus Christ. But Jay makes great content that defends and explains orthodoxy. What rights does he want to take away again?
Alex and Christ are a great double act. Sniping at each other and smiling as they enjoy the joust. Both are genuine people striving to gain the truth. Their discussion is both edifying and entertaining.
They do seem interested in truth, such a rare quality these days. What if Jesus was right, "The truth will set you free", but so many of us would much rather be comfortable, and some even love the comfort so much they willing to kill for it. Maybe, truly "narrow is the path…"?
the folks who enjoy the benefits of the fruit, but do little to nothing to appreciate the plant. thankfully, our offer of service is to a higher power and not only them
I’m just a common cleaner and shop worker but I’ve definately felt a revival of REAL Christianity in the UK. I’m a catechumen in the Eastern Orthodox Church and looking forward to being baptised.
These guys should also try Eastern Orthodoxy. The shock about "all this Jesus thing is just a spectacle" would probably vanish, if they witnessed a vigil in a monastery.
I was raised very Christian but it has lapsed in adulthood, and I have found a more religious experience in the study of history, philosophy, and literature. I have a soft spot for religions in that I find them to be fascinating, and part of the reason I enjoy conversations featuring Alex O'Connor is because I can relate to one being compelled to study religion without accepting them as fact. I don't wish to be governed by religious law, and just the same as I would be against any form of legislating religion for the masses, I will also always be in favor of the freedom to worship and believe as one sees fit. Thanks for the great conversation, Chris.
I’m talking as a Christian and Christianity was never meant to be a governing rule or law. Jesus even said that: “Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and render unto God what is God’s” or when He said: “My sovereignty is not of this world.”
@@BroJo676of course it was. That's the sole point of religion. Especially monotheistic ones. From your own version of the supernatural, tell me about the doctrine of 2 swords in the garden of Gethsemane.
You've used the term religion and religious multiple times and I get the impression they have slightly different meanings depending on the context. What do YOU mean by religion and religious?
@@guywilletts2804 History also shows quite the contrary to what you’re saying. Christianity became a major religion from the moment on which it became the state religion of the Roman Empire back in 380 through the Edict of Thessaloniki. Before that, even when Christianity no longer was forbidden in the Roman Empire, all the Roman rulers, from the very first August to the very last in 376, were required to also act as the Roman religious leader aka Pontifex Maximus (the Greatest Priest in Latin). The Christianity adoption put an end to that because it’s legitimately understood that Jesus was not searching for and uninterested in gaining some form of political power. Now, I’m not denying there could be some influence from religious institutions but the absolute power never belonged to the Church and history clearly shows it.
Also in Deuteronomy 21:14 "But if you no longer delight in her, you shall let her go where she wants. But you shall not sell her for money, nor shall treat her as a slave, since you have humiliated her." Around time stamp 1:02:00 Alex mentions the Captures of war.
Thankfully Christians believe in the new covenant and would consider the Old Testament non moral laws as for a specific time in the past, given in a corrupt culture. One can be a follower of Jesus and yet not affirm that all the Old Testament laws came from God word for word. Much of it reflects the authors of that time’s views. The likes of Pete Enns and Gregory Boyd are good writers to go to on the trouble of the Old Testament. Also, you can read Origen of Alexandria in the early church work’s who said that Christians should take a deeper, spiritual understanding of all scripture and where possible a literal understanding.
What point are you trying to make? He was talking about you enslaving her and your point is that you wouldn't be allowed to resell her? Your bored with her so let her go is a good moral thing?
@@mmoreno7137 Full quote: "When you go to war against your enemies and the Lord your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. If you are not pleased with her, let her go wherever she wishes. You must not sell her or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her." This passage talks about a situation when you found a woman who you like and how to properly treat her.
Its aparent to me that while this isnt good for our modern day morals its incredibly progressive for the time, you can say that christianity isnt essentially moral and good because it allows bad things, but it seems to me it always allows a less bad flavour of bad. If the only times slavery is brought up the prhasing is ''you can own people, but dont mistreat them'' its clear that the underlying message is morally good, its just constrained by its time
I was surprised he brought this up to be honest given how good he'd been elsewhere in this conversation. Deuteronomy is a book from the Old Testament, while all of the universalising tendencies Tom Holland brings up are really located in the New Testament. There are tons of things in the OT that are considered obsolete or no longer binding. Christians eat pork!
Because its a shorthand way of saying, "I'm atheist for all practical purposes, but I still acknowledge that as a society we have to work together on solving our communal problems, and as a general rule, I tend to rely on what might broadly be called 'christian' values."
@@SwolePatrol_1969 Ok, except "Christian values" are not unique to Christianity. It's more that Christianity has claimed credit for them in a society that happens to be predominantly Christian, so its expedient to just let the pretense continue. But the point is we can have "Christian values," in this colloquial sense, without having "the law/value giver," which, it seems to me, is the unnecessary step that only serves to ruin the whole enterprise.
Just because someone says they are a Christian doesn't mean they are one. That is why Jesus said 'you will know them by their fruit'. As a Christian, I should not act, look, or talk like the rest of the world. If I do, follow brethren should be concerned for me.
In your photo, you look pretty much like the rest of us. I can't imagine how you can hope to spread your "message" if you doggedly refuse to "act, look, or talk like the rest of the world".
Amen! My grandson, at age 13, claimed to be an atheist. His father is a professor at an Ivy League where quite a few of the students are atheists, and they live on campus. I think he thought it was cool and made him look smarter. Now, at 15, he has softened a bit. When they visited me at Christmas, he offered to go to Church with me, which was a surprise. When he came home, he told his parents that Christians are nicer people than his atheist friends, and then he told them I think I want to marry a Christian girl. What a delight to hear. One of the top scientists in the U.S., Dr. Francis Collins, was an atheist. He has a PhD in chemistry from Yale and then decided to get an M.D. He was the director of NIH and worked under three presidents. He was the lead scientist of the Human Genome Project, which saved millions of people. After noticing his religious patients lived better, were healthier, and handled serious illness better, he looked into Christianity at the advice of his patient. He became a Christian and has written several books on God. I love his book, "A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief, The Language of God." He takes it from a scientific viewpoint why belief in God is reasonable and why the Christian God makes sense.
@@petretepner8027 If I'm kind while others are rude, loving to those with hate, longsuffering in times of trial..all because I have HIS love. This speaks volumes.
After speaking to numerous people over the years about Christ, I’m coming around to the fact that, while the mind has to be engaged, it’s really the state of the heart that I now look for. I think that’s the fundamental lesson of the parable of the Sower and the Seed.
The idea of parables is to make the words palatable. If yoi say to a person "go to the gym", they will tell you to go take a walk. If you take 5 minutes to beautifully engage with them about health and whatnot, way bigger chance of getting them into a gym
@newme1589, Only to those who understand the “language” of the Scriptures. Once you do understand it, it opens up worlds of depth of meaning. “But to those outside, everything else is in parables” Mark 4:11.
It’s atheists realizing Islam has a huge growth and wanting to make Christianity rival Islam. Choosing teams basically. But how would that help Christian’s when fake Christian’s join while Islam requires actual thought and dedication to chose Islam. Islam will continue to grow the more people open their eyes
@@abdiahmed1371 The thing is that cultural Christianity cannot help actual believers regardless of how much they engage in wishful thinking. The moment the trans-ideology and wokism go down (assuming they will, which I am not sure about) the old things that drove people away from Christianity in the first place (the stance on homosexuality & abortion, purity culture, mental gymnastics to justify biblical claims etc.,) will cause all those self-proclaimed cultural Christians to move away as quickly as they joined. And yes, Islam will continue to grow as long as countries don't change their immigration policies and don't adopt integration-first approach. I doubt that this will happen as such stance requires the acknowledgment that cultures are not equal.
@@three_owl_night I agree with all that u said except Islam will continue to grow whether immigration/integration is managed or not. The reason why is because Islam teaches that devotion and morals is for God and from God. Everything a Muslim does is with the belief that God will judge them on it and will either reward them or punish them and that this life that last less than a 100 years is not greater than the next life that last forever. Paradise is worth the struggle and is motivation to do good in this life so that you live there best life in the next
What an unbelievably interesting conversation. Edit; will have to revisit this, so much value and I've found myself with a great admiration of Alex and will be exploring his thoughts more, thanks again.
I do agree that many of these so called "Christians" do not walk like one. Always lean to their own understanding and never open their mind and/or ears to others because they think what they think it is true and absolute. Not only what they think, but their knowledge is that of a child; Surface level understanding, and they take these surface level understanding as absolute truth without exploring.
I never thought Id come back to Christianity, I was convinced it was false. But the gospel's undeniable attachment to caring for the needy and oppressed actually brought me back.
But can you not be convinced of their good-heartedness while also demonstrating the same perceived good-heartedness without needing the framework of an organized religion? Cheers
@@XinwylFumudaiski Oh yes, but it seems we as humans sorta need that extra push. By and large. What I see is in these volunteer spaces, while there are a handful of people who do it without any religious or otherwise compelling motivation, even in the secular organizations with secular money, the people showing up to volunteer are overwhelmingly religiously motivated. A Christian has an extra voice in his head that he believes to be God that an atheist just simply doesn't have.
@@judegrindvoll8467 Moreso. I volunteer at my church every Monday night where we house the homeless and feed them and sit and talk with them and help them to feel human again, and the interfaith organization we work with helps them with clothing, transportation and employment. I look forward to the Monday nights more than I do Sundays. There's another church here that pooled all their money together and instead of building a super church, they bought an entire city block and built transitional housing for the homeless and recovering drug addicts. Still the same tiny little church, but they do SO MUCH good.
I would describe myself as a cultural Christian. Being bought up in a Christian society, with its culture and values, obviously leaves an imprint on you. It is very familiar and comforting, not necessarily in any spiritual way though. My brain cannot except, anything that is not grounded in reality. It’s just the way it works. It doesn’t stop me appreciating Christian values and its long cultural history. The beautiful churches and cathedrals and amazing coral music. It is all part of my heritage. I believe it’s definitely worth fighting for.
God is as real as it gets, my bro. Do you think atoms spontaneously appeared and randomly collided till we have humans with eyes and brains with consciousness? Intelligent design is obvious.
@@Maxfox11 Search 'Apologetics' on UA-cam. There are many eloquent answers to that question. A common view is that life is a very short test and suffering is part of existence for all people before we spend eternity in bliss. That is an excellent deal on balance. During our time on Earth, man has free will and he is free to make life awful for other people. Additionally, as mortal beings, we will all get sick, suffer and die. This will happen at different times for different people for different reasons. Cancer as a child. Parkinson's at 80. Christians don't pretend to know why people die. We just try to accept it and appreciate the time we have. Having gratitude for life and stoic acceptance of suffering are just some of the gifts that come from Christianity.
@@Maxfox11 Cancer comes from the toxic environment and stress (food etc.) caused by humans. We have been given a freedom of choice. There are things we can do to help people. Some peopIe choose to not care. Do you, help kids with cancer? l've experienced tumors myseIf, but have aIso heaIed. l came to reaIize that my body did the exact correct thing in moving the toxins into the tumors, when it just couIdn't do aII the work in removing the toxins, because of my own unheaIthy IifestyIes and choices. The stress was a huge part of the cause, but it got greatIy aIIeviated with prayer. Because with faith l dropped the urgent need to stressfully controI everything and everyone around me. And then my tumor started to shrink.
Chris, I watched a Christian testimony from Isaiah Saldivar yesterday that was very impactful, and I think it would be so cool to listen to you interview him (a fully convinced Christian). Also John Burke who wrote a book about near death experiences and people who’ve encountered Jesus through that (even atheists and followers of other religions). Thanks for the great conversations!
Isaiah teaches a false gospel. All the deliverance ministries are deceiving people. Revealing Truth youtube channel shows many examples of Isaiah's false teachings.
I'm not an emotional person and when I hear the music come on I zone out for the whole worship time. Everyone is typically really into the music and have their hands raised, we are known for our band. However, when the scripture is read I always get goosebumps and get the feels ..
Good stuff Chris. In the last three you went from AI to Chaos theory, to a conversation about Christianity. Always surprised by the your breadth of topics. Keep it coming.
Around 11:24 more I realize that Alex forgets the entire Eastern philosophy and "religion" like daoism and zen. No need to appeal to an "other" or "sacred" outside, the sacred, for we are and all is sacred and profane at the same time. Everything just is. It's very liberating and what the seekers in the west need to hear.
You are wrong... He knows that Eastern Philosophy of "finding God inside yourself" is one of the worst possible Philosophical ideas. Love the God inside yourself is to Love yourself. Finding Peace inside you is to ignore all those who need help outside you. You can understand it better from a Slavoj Zizek book called "Christian Atheism". PS: There are many Christian books better than this one, criticizing Buddhism for example, but I am not going to recommend it.... I know you wouldn't read them just because they are Christian books .... Better recommend a Left wing Atheist book to explain what I am trying to say.
@@alextyze I can appreciate your comment. Not sure you understand eastern concepts well but you had limited space to explain. It's not about finding god within yourself or to love yourself, and if it was that would still not negate helping others suffering. It's difficult to liberate others from suffering if you are suffering yourself internally. I was a Christian for over 30 years and spent 7 years of it in a theological seminary. Most likely a lot of what you've read and found helpful I might have read or approached from a different writer or perspective. Nevertheless, I still hold that Alex' discussions will be greater once he begins to look at and incorporate more eastern approaches but his audience, like yourself, likely would find it to different an environment to comprehend and incorporate easily.
How can you be both sacred and profane at the same time? To be sacred it to be set apart for a specific purpose. It's impossible to be set apart and also adulterated with that which is NOT sacred.
@@corygiesbrecht9133I wouldn't necessarily say that it's because the environment would be too different to comprehend (though it may be part of it). But it's mostly about relevance, most of his audience is not interested in eastern religion which is why he doesn't talk about it much.
Great call Chris. Love your style and choice of guests. I have been watching Alex since he was a young person. He is a gifted speaker and a wise and gentle conversationalist who seems to leave his ego at home every time he comes out to play. This may be my favourite of all of his conversations. And we have you to thank. Cheers.
I agree to a point, I was raised Christian and became an agnostic in part because of Dawkins and Hitchens. The argument was always you can me moral without subscribing to Christianity but does seem like the last decade that the atheist movement ostracizes anyone that doesn’t subscribe to a more progressive ideology politically. Think Hitchens would be considered a bigot by many in the atheist sphere and possibly critiqued because he had friends who were Christian
I feel that the cause and effect is the other way around. People will rationally change their belief based on what they see is more convenient to act on, and very few people actually have the meta-cognitive ability to see what they are doing. I think that the reality hits first before beliefs, not the other way around. People are blindly following this cult of ridiculous progressiveness not because they decided not to believe in Christianity but because what they want in their life is against the teaching of Christianity. I see them as "atheist by convenience". And I actually do not like these progressive political ideologies, despite being an atheist myself. I'm an atheist not because it's convenient for me, but because I think it's just the right answer. Political ideologies has nothing to do with my reason for being atheist. And people who are, in my opinion, is just an opportunist than anything else.
The problem with most debates including Lennox is that no matter how intelligent if they believe in evolution they will be devoured by Alex. They need to read creation science material and then they are prepared to defend the truth without weakening their defence with compromise
Can you choose to believe? Isn’t that the whole point of faith? Despite having doubts, making the brave decision to believe, and then hoping for the fruits.
As a Christian, brought up in a Christion home in the UK, back in the 80's and 90's and being more or less bullied for my beliefs at school, it blows my mind to hear two people who are so well known and who barely believe in God, talk for 2 hours about the rise of Christianity. It's quite heart warming really. I have been a part of a number of different churches through my life, of all different styles and varieties and I have definitely seen a "change in the wind" as it were. I feel like culturally the west went through a phase of turning away from God, thinking that it was just infantile and that science rules the day and we should be able to live how we like and "you do you, man"....but we are now seeing how that has just caused the moral fabric to fall apart and I think people are starting to realise things don't really go very well when we try to do things our own way. It feels like people are starting to think "maybe there is something to this Christianity thing". I know church attendance has been declining in the West for a long time, but I feel like things are bottoming out now and the tide is beginning to turn. My personal experience has been that while the stablished traditional churches have been dying out, a new generation of churches has been growing up in their place, with a fresh take on things stylistically, but still sticking to the core beliefs of the gospel. It will be interesting to see how things pan out.
I’m a Christian. It is definitely a choice to believe. I think biblically it is meant to be a choice. There are many reasons I choose to believe, and it’s in the convergence of these reasons that it really becomes pretty easy to have faith, but it took me many years to get to this point. One reason that’s often overlooked but is indirectly touched upon in this conversation is the truth found in “goodness.” When I test the way of Jesus in my life it’s always just good. For example, if I have an argument with my wife, and I surrender it to God and think how would God want me to react and treat her… boom it’s always good. I let my pride and resentment guide me… it’s always bad. This is just one example. But true in literally every aspect of my life. It’s basically become a law of nature to me. It’s good therefore it’s true. “God saw all that He had made, and it was very good.”
I don't understand how you find it a choice to believe. Can you believe there is no gravity? Can you go up a very tall tower and decide that you can fly?
It sounds you’re choosing to believe the good stuff in the Bible and maybe choosing to ignore some of the not-so-good stuff. Which is fine, those are the best kinds of Christians.
@@markallen8022because the existence of God can neither be proven nor disproven; it’s a choice each of us has to make, and reasonable minds can and have disagreed.
Australia is not what I would consider a particularly religious country. But the revelation that Australia had its first openly atheist prime minister in the 2010s was a very big deal. Very interesting to read back on that
Fellow Australian, we are actually more Christian then you think. 30% of parents and rising use fee charging Christian schools. Christianity is still the majority religion at about 50%, in the UK it is a minority. Was it Kevin Rudd?
@@Chicky1234-m3f We are not big church goers. But it's rare to meet an Australian who is completely atheist with no spiritual beliefs. I babysit after school, and the state of the government schools is so bad, most children are very devout, because they go to Christian schools. As for the far right, which I think was the topic of conversation, it is true, because we have freedom of religion in Australia, but we don't have freedom of speech.
1:12:05 A Muslim friend I met at work essentially told me the same thing in as many words. It was very helpful in understanding their perspectives better as I was ignorant beforehand.
Christopher hitchens converted me into the new atheist movement back when I was in college. And never looked back. Until I had an encounter with Christ. It completely changed my whole worldview. I know the skeptics will reject this, as I did back then, but I can only say it’s true.
Again cool but that is not i repeat IS NOT evidence for anything, I could also say I didn't believe in the force until I had an encounter with ghost Obi Wan Kenobi.
As someone that grew up in more spiritual not religious household organized religion had always been iffy with me. Early there were the decent experiences of attending service during the holidays but over time as I learned about how its lead to wars, seen preachers screaming into a microphone on the street and getting harassed by Jenovah’‘s Witness/Mormons while waiting for the bus and at home it became less appealing. However, having survived several suicide attempts; my parents late divorce; my aunt’s cancer diagnosis; my brother becoming mentally il and having three near death experiences (not all in that order) I just know there is a God. Not mention hanging out at church events for the free food & seeing how some in our culture idolize mortal politicians over an internal God, the former seems a lot more chill.
folks are converting from shia islam to Christianity in iran and as a newly converted christian i enjoyed this massively and i gotta say both of you are close 😄
Honestly , Shia are not Muslim. There is no following one the Quran. So I would not consider them Muslim I would rather refer to them as Christianity 2.0. As they worship religious figures which are not god.
@@goarmysleepinthemud. I don’t understand the question. I can only share what I believe. My belief in a creator is due to the beautiful designs of animals and different/distinct beautiful designs of humans and many things that suggests to me that we are designed but not by chance. I believe life is a test so that is why there is evil and good. These are some verses from the Quran about the tests of life and the purpose of creation. 1. **Surah Al-Baqarah (2:155-157)**: - "And We will surely test you with something of fear and hunger and a loss of wealth and lives and fruits, but give good tidings to the patient, who, when disaster strikes them, say, 'Indeed we belong to Allah, and indeed to Him we will return.' Those are the ones upon whom are blessings from their Lord and mercy. And it is those who are the [rightly] guided." 2. **Surah Al-Imran (3:186)**: - "You will surely be tested in your possessions and in yourselves. And you will surely hear from those who were given the Scripture before you and from those who associate others with Allah much abuse. But if you are patient and fear Allah - indeed, that is of the matters [worthy] of determination." 3. **Surah Al-Ankabut (29:2-3)**: - "Do the people think that they will be left to say, 'We believe' and they will not be tried? But We have certainly tried those before them, and Allah will surely make evident those who are truthful, and He will surely make evident the liars." 4. **Surah Al-Mulk (67:2)**: - "[He] who created death and life to test you [as to] which of you is best in deed - and He is the Exalted in Might, the Forgiving." 5. **Surah Al-Insan (76:2-3)**: - "Indeed, We created man from a sperm-drop mixture that We may try him; and We made him hearing and seeing. Indeed, We guided him to the way, be he grateful or be he ungrateful."
These are some verses from the Quran about the tests of life and the purpose of creation. 1. **Surah Al-Baqarah (2:155-157)**: - "And We will surely test you with something of fear and hunger and a loss of wealth and lives and fruits, but give good tidings to the patient, who, when disaster strikes them, say, 'Indeed we belong to Allah, and indeed to Him we will return.' Those are the ones upon whom are blessings from their Lord and mercy. And it is those who are the [rightly] guided." 2. **Surah Al-Imran (3:186)**: - "You will surely be tested in your possessions and in yourselves. And you will surely hear from those who were given the Scripture before you and from those who associate others with Allah much abuse. But if you are patient and fear Allah - indeed, that is of the matters [worthy] of determination." 3. **Surah Al-Ankabut (29:2-3)**: - "Do the people think that they will be left to say, 'We believe' and they will not be tried? But We have certainly tried those before them, and Allah will surely make evident those who are truthful, and He will surely make evident the liars." 4. **Surah Al-Mulk (67:2)**: - "[He] who created death and life to test you [as to] which of you is best in deed - and He is the Exalted in Might, the Forgiving." 5. **Surah Al-Insan (76:2-3)**: - "Indeed, We created man from a sperm-drop mixture that We may try him; and We made him hearing and seeing. Indeed, We guided him to the way, be he grateful or be he ungrateful."
I follow the way(you would call me Christian) . Alex takes an approach to discussing the impact, critiquing the areas that don’t add up, and fearlessly holding everyone to account (better had done your homework when you sit down to have a discussion with Alex), is so refreshing as a follower of the “way, the truth, the life”. Thank you Alex, I’ve grown in my understanding and perspective listening to you.
One of your best convos yet, Chris. I am a Christian and a pastor (yep, a megachurch pastor), and I loved this conversation. Great job being charitable with views you don't agree with. Alex, super fair representation of Christianity overall. Thanks for that. Chris, I have great respect that you tried out a church on Easter. Well done! It might help to think of the rock band, pyrotechnics, and LED wall as modern packaging on the ancient message of the Gospel. The Gnostic discussion was super interesting, though Gnosticism, as a philosophy, wasn't really developed till well after the NT era, and it glommed onto everything (Judaism, Christianity, even the Greek/Roman pantheon). Alex, when you say to "flip open the Old Testament" and see what you find (as an illustration of Judeo-Christian values), perhaps what you find is the chaos of a society or people that rejects Judeo-Christian values that the Bible actually endorses. One thing to dig into more would be the meaning of the Cross and Resurrection of Jesus. What does the New Testament (and Old) say about the meaning of those things? It's worth checking into. Keep following after truth... it's the one journey to never give up on. Chris, earlier in the comments, Justin Brierley offered himself to be interviewed by you... look him up. He's very well-known and extremely knowledgeable. That would be top-class interview and would draw one of your largest audiences ever. You'd really like him, too. Thanks again for a fascinating conversation.
I knew God was real when I was given everything in youth, yet had suicidal ideation and addictions beyond my control. I studied theology and philosophy for years and ended up believing Jesus Christ is truly The Word in Flesh. I’m still trying to be more like him.
@@warbler1984 it’s abusive to study the Bible and theology for several years, come to believe God and then through Jesus I’ve began to transform my life and everyone around me is noticing? God didn’t put myself in that situation, I did. With my free will and bad decisions I ended up where I was. What are you even saying? It’s not “relief” either. It’s helping me overcome ACTUAL abusive relationships with addiction and substances. Do you know anything about Christianity? If someone finds meaning in things, that’s an abusive relationship to you? I’m sorry you grew up that way, that must be very difficult. Good luck man, I wish you the best
@@henryconner780 I think what he's saying is that its kinda fucked up to put someone in that situation in the first place knowing that such a life would lead to despair and agony, and god "did nothing until you believed." Its not like a person came into your life and made a change with their presence. Its a supposed god who knows and plans your whole life supposedly before your born. If gods were real then they would make sure there are ways to ensure someone will have a happy life and not lose their free will doing it. But no, he intentionally made the events of your life lead to drugs addictions and feelings of suicide. Also God didn't give you strength at all you found the strength within yourself to overcome those obstacles. Stories like yours are great but when i hear people not give themselves the credit they deserve and give it to some god, its just frustrating. Also Grew up Baptist and reading the bible was ONE of the things that lead to my deconstruction....Hell i think it single handedly started me to question my birth religion in the first place. Its a pretty fucked up book all through, but especially the old testament. Definitely not for children. believe or don't believe, its clearly helped you, but the fact i can go to india and find people saying the same thing about hinduism, and Saudi Arabia with Islam, is pretty damning for any religion
@@XxUSAF1RExX… jesus christ wishes he was you. Can i pray to you? Cuz GODDAMN that shit was impressive. I literally could not have said it better myself. Like do you have any other comments to people i can read, cuz that shit made my whole day… and i just woke up. Live Long Legend
@@XxUSAF1RExX I’m Christian Orthodox. We believe free will, I had thought my responsibility was implied through my free will. It seems you don’t understand Orthodox theology, that’s perfectly fine, you have never been exposed to it maybe. We believe God knows our lives and how they would unfold in every scenario. So it’s not Orthodox to believe God made me do evil, that’s heretical. I chose to do evil, I chose to let temptations control my life, and I chose to ignore the good. I chose to be weak hearted and let worldly pleasures destroy me. The Father most certainly gave me strength through Jesus Christ, and his teachings has given me profound strength in my life. We Orthodox truly believe that suffering and going through what I did for example, is in many ways a gift from God. For it makes man holy to go through suffering, it makes man have love and humility in his heart. That’s a serious blessing. You contradict yourself, you claim God is the one who made me do evil things, but yet, when I mention the strength and courage I’ve gotten through God, you easily dismiss God for being the one to help me. It’s contradictory at its core, and lacks logical cohesion. Of course, I understand I chose to start doing good. I also think your broad parallels to other religions is dishonest and vague I’ve studied world religions in college at University of Michigan, while there may be some parallels it really isn’t the same.
@@XxUSAF1RExX agree. If one focuses on their own things and have a relationship with Jesus, that can bring oneself from the misery and make them have a better, more fulfilled life. But the moment you start looking beyond your own community and see other people having similar experiences through other religions, things get quite tricky.
And to think Alex is so young… soooooo curious how he’ll develop as he ages. I find him fascinating to listen to. I find his skepticism and immense curiosity about religion very appealing and more honest than many preachers of whatever (whether atheism or theism)
Is this new or just that there is a term for it now? Honestly have known lots of "cultural Christians" back when I was actually "in the church" some 20 years ago.
It's more like it used to be something really taboo back in the day. Nowadays it seems like it's more accepted, specially because a lot of religious institutions feel threatened so they are now kind of forced to try and welcome those people who don't really believe but want to play pretend.
From my viewing of the Ayaan-Dawkins discussion, she didn't clearly answer whether or not she believed in the tree. The impression I got was that she doesn't, and only chooses in the sense that I choose to pretend that the characters in my favorite show are real so that I can get into the show and it makes the show more fun, but I, of course, know that they are not.
I believe Alex is a brilliant young man, and he does his research. There's no question about that. I also have Faith an hope that there is a God, I believe in sight unseen faith by choice. I would go to Alex for the truth about scripture more so than I would any Christian today because they are so biased and many don't do their research and some Christians are rather mean to you when you question the Bible. Because if you question the Bible, you might get true answers, and they're afraid of that that's my take and my experience with overzealous Christians. I've learned more about the Bible outside of reading it myself from Alex, thank you, Alex for being a scholar of the Bible. Whether you know what or not you're doing God's work as far as I'm concerned, because. when you quote scripture and tell us about what it really says, it's wonderful. I appreciate you 100%.
All I can say is that my life became infinitely better compared to where I was, once I became a Christian. Like Ayaan Hirsi Ali, it wasn't until I started praying and accepting Jesus as real - even hyper real (stealing from Jordan Peterson - still learning, I'm accepting of both takes), that everything began to improve. I'm now working, a proud father, a proud husband, and can manage the stress and moments of depression much better than I ever was able to before. I can't go back to any other form of living. It's not possible for me. This is/was the only way forward for me.
That's awesome to hear, man. I've definitely been a bit astray myself. I'm also a husband, and my daughter's going to be here in less than a week. I do have a question. I'm worried about my ability to spiritually lead my household. I have bouts of pretty severe death anxiety, and I have a problem reconciling death and Christ. This has caused mass doubt in my faith, despite a real and tangible pull I feel towards Christ and Christianity. How have you, as a new believer, dealt with those ideas in your conversion? How has that affected your family?
@@es0teric76 Thanks. First, I should say, I was raised Christian, fell out when I was roughly 16, then went about 20 years of my life describing myself as atheist to agnostic. But as said earlier - couldn't improve my life and couldn't find meaning. If it's all to end in heat death for instance - what's the point? If we can just step over each other without a cosmic ultimate justice - what's the point? Just those two thoughts alone would leave me bitter towards the world. You can't (at least I couldn't) keep moving in that direction. To answer your question - it was Jordan Peterson (who I don't believe to be a Christian) who put it as if we frame our lives around stories and those stories can be the bedrock of how we see everything else in the world and how it orients how we move forward - that is the better way to build your axiomatic beliefs that you will act upon. A heroes journey if you will. I want to be a difference for good, no matter how small. Whether it's for my wife, my child, or my friends. I want to be a beacon of strength and hope. I want to be the person that people can rely on. To turn the other cheek. To walk a path of godliness as best as I can even though I know I'm a sinner. When you fully accept the truths Jesus talks about and you invite him in to change your life - you don't suddenly become the greatest version of you. But, it's a step towards the light and it's a battle and it will challenge you. As long as you allow him to work through you, go to church, and actively learn, you will find extraordinary changes happen to you and around you. Fear of death is normal. Find some comfort in knowing you're not alone. You're not the first person to to be afraid of dying. Second, know it's not the end provided you wholly believe in Jesus. Finally, there is no shame in moments of weakness. What's important is you find ways/tricks/bible to rebound as quickly as possible and get into the habit of making those changes to orient yourself towards a more positive path as quickly as you can. Whatever those tools are that can help you - use them and get back on track as soon as you can. You don't need to beat yourself up. Cheers to you - I wish you the best.
Instead the “sacred” as what draws people to religion across time, I think it’s better clarified as what provides **hope and order**. Coming from a extremely religious and also academically religious background, I have heard this insinuated and spoken explicitly countless times. People have trouble letting go of their religion (or questioning their religion at all) because it is the ultimate fallback hope to acute and general mundane suffering in life. It orders the chaos and puts a light at the end of the tunnel. That is the draw to religion more than anything else about beauty and love, although those play into the same theme. Believed by its adherents, religion specifically secures a final hope/resolution and *enough* current order. However, it just does a poor job of inviting *everyone* to a path of spiritual transformation. Religion seems to be inherently sectarian and gated-group-forming. I would suggest precisely because it has to determine ultimate value/categorize humans in kind of a binary “are you in or are you out with God/heaven” kind of way. When that is the final stakes / dichotomy, religion will be sectarian. And an open-source spiritual path will be thought of as “secondary” or will be heavily devalued. I think today we are seeing the results of massive nominal-only Christianity and the desire for more real spiritual transformation/Aka fruits. Religion, if keeping ultimate binary stakes, cannot provide this. It will always devolve into a mechanistic belief system to secure hope. I honesty think people prefer a sense of “guaranteed hope/order” over the real ambiguity of pursuing the spiritual path open to everyone and anyone.
Agreed. Well worded. People have tried finding solace in the logic of new atheism but like all movements, it was destined to have a deadline to its popularity. It alienated a lot of people and the pendulum is swinging back to a mean position and in some parts of the world, to the other extreme as well.
@@alinachrist8416 for sure. I think there is a spacious meeting ground for all of us. Assuming there will be a perfectly harmonious future one day can also mislead us. Peace and love are a means, not an eventual end. Aka I don’t think unity=final same thinking for everyone, but unity= an effort to collaborate despite not thinking the same. Our diversity/collaboration, once you accept it’s gonna always be that way, is actually pretty fun! :)
That is very well articulated. My husbands side of the family is very religious, and all their testimonies share those elements you mentioned; some of them are obvious and on the surface, others are less articulated but still clearly observable from someone on the outside like myself. The obvious ones are the hope of salvation (eternal life after death which makes everything that happens in life bearable) and knowledge that everything is God's will (which is order, regardless of whether one likes that order or not). The less obvious one is the in/out group dynamics.
It is more likely that the tree is evolving, producing new kinds of fruits. An apple can appear in multiple colors, textures, and flavors, but if someone asks, "What's that?", the quick answer would still be "Apple." One can adhere to a set of rules and values, striving to align with the morals Jesus represents, without necessarily believing the entire story. Speaking as a Jewish Spinozian/Nietzschean/stoic seeker, I also bet that not a single Jew was wearing a yarmulke 3000 years ago.
Except that in this particular case, Jesus actually demanded belief (faith - they are the same word in Greek). The gospel of John could not be more explicit, it states multiple times that the purpose of the whole piece is that you believe in Jesus and Jesus says that that's what you need to do repeatedly. "That all who believe may not perish". "No one comes to the Father except through me". Etc.
@@SeanusAurelius I understand your point, and you can see similar cases in other religions. The Jews demanded Samuel unite all tribes under one kingdom and find a king, so no one came to God except through Saul. From an unreligious perspective, this is a smart strategy. By telling people they must come to you first, you gain control over the chain that connects humanity to God. This is why Muhammad claimed to be the last true prophet, to gain power over that chain. The Old Testament opens with Genesis, telling two different creation stories. Which one should we believe? Or perhaps it's simply a good, nonliteral story. Maybe God wanted to share values, morals, and rules to help us become better people, and the best way to do that is by mixing parts of history with good storytelling.
The point of Christianity is that you are saved by faith, the thief being crucified performed no works and followed no specific morals of Jesus. Yet Jesus says he will go to heaven. These people and their fruit are closer to atheists or Jews than Christians.
@@yanivhadar4489 The morals Jesus taught isn't just to be "good" in this life, but to have a personal relationship with him and be with him forever in the next life though. And it's not about gaining power- many of the early Christians were persecuted and killed for being Christians. Even Jesus himself was tortured and crucified, and said his followers shouldn't be surprised if the world hates us for following him.
I believe without a doubt Jesus and his story is 100% real. I know it is. His wisdom is eternal and proves itself. I know I fail him everyday yet he allows us to exist so that we may overcome.
The fact that Alex delves so deep into the Gnostic texts is extraordinary. The more he talks about the Gnostics and their conception of the universe, and reality as a whole, the more it feels like Buddhist Cosmology: Samsara, de realm of birth and death, is to be seen as a prison. A place - and a process, at that - where you are 'locked in', 'enslaved' by your own craving and clinging, which originates fundamentally from ignorance - that is, we see existence in the wrong terms, and therefore keep running around and around, chasing our tails, going up and down, up and down, eternally, until we find a way out. The way out is to destroy that very ignorance. There is no other way. And the way to end ignorance is the Eightfold Path, which leads you to the Truth of nirvana and liberation. We have a remarkable parallel on that aspect in the Gospel of John (which seems to be focused on liberation): So He said to the Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, you are truly My disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” See: 'You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free'. Well, 'What is truth?' Pilate asks him later, but gives him no time to answer. Christians insist on repeating the words of Jesus, 'I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life'. Great. What does that mean? How do you apply that to your life, to your cognition, to how you see and interpret the world as a whole? How does THAT free you from being enslaved to sin and ignorance, because sin can only be born out of ignorance? What is a Christian supposed to DO in this world, instead of waiting passively for the Second Coming while the world turns to ash? There is a lot to unpack here, because the more you look at it, the more it seems that immense parts of Christian Cosmology have been erased and/or hidden, as if to intentionally make things more difficult and obscure. Maybe because the Powers That Be don't WANT you to be liberated.
Agree there are some fascinating parallels between Gnostic cosmology and Hindu philosophy too. Such a Barbarello the female aspect who is something like Adi Shakti.
To me stuff like this is the biggest argument against religion being a biological bug that helps us build societies. The level of specificity and wierdness to these traditions goes far beyond ''we dreamed of a bearded guy in the clouds that tells us to be good to eachother or he will punish us''. Its so specific, wierd, and consistent across different parts of the world, it has to be real in some capacity
Having studied some major world religions I've found there there is much wisdom to be gained when looking for peace, equinimty, joy, acceptance of reality, life's value. But religion also makes absolute claims in the form of commands, rituals, demands, roles, etc. Can't we "tease out" the wisdom from these ancient traditions without accepting Iron Age social and truth claims?
@@taobaoexpert123 Interesting you should say. Wisdom doesn't seem to change over time. Mythological themes of heroism, love, redemption, origins...are common themes of all great literature. The paradoxical wisdom of strength in humility, loving unconditionally, losing self, is generally found in the great religions of the world. Problem? Good literature is hard to find.
I think a better question is why do those rituals arise if the only usefull part of the religion is its wisdom, and why do those rituals resemble eachother across all religions? can we truly be sure that all the spiritual side of all religions is false? and why is there such a strong movement that staunchly belives so if its obvious? For the longest time i was an agnostic, not religious, but humble enough that i didnt think i could be 100% sure religion was completely unfounded. It always baffled me how staunch atheists could exist, if youre guided by reason and logic, wouldnt you just act as if religion is false, becuase you havnt seen god or anything like that, without feeling the need to scream from the rooftops that its 100% false for sure? Atheism seems like a faith based system, like all religions, but at least religions have people who seem to honestly belive they have seen god in some vision, meanwhile atheism has no evidence for anything, yet the same conviction.
Currently reading meister Eckhart and finding it quite enjoyable and refreshing. He takes a Zen Buddhism spin on Christianity as a Christian gnostic and focuses on the birth of the Son in our soul. We are to become like Christ by surrendering to Christ. “When he entered I had to fall away.” According to Eckhart, we have to surrender ourselves so that Christ may dwell within our souls. I find this message to be both beautiful and profound yet practical. Matt. 10:34-36 summarizes his theology quite well.
As a Muslim, I was astounded by his true knowledge about Islam. This man can make a podcast on Islam too at this point. Though I believe his beliefs are untrue, his knowledge is great. Brilliant 👏
I don't think he has a good understanding of Islam at all aside from just a superficial level. It doesn't sound like he did any research on Islam theology and philosophy. Fiqh, Ijtihad, Tawheed, Zikhr, Jihad, Fitna, Dunya, Zakat, Waḥdat al-wujūd, etc. All of these concepts in my opinion are are FUNDAMENTAL to what ISLAM actually is. One has to study these in their depth to have a better understanding into the Islamic Psyche.
They are discussing religions based on Thier scriptures Reality is viewed differently by everyone Pretty sure you don't even know any of the concepts he just mentioned@@azmainfaiak8111
He who says "Better to go without belief forever than believe a lie!" merely shows his own preponderant private horror of becoming a dupe... This fear he slavishly obeys... For my own part, I have also a horror of being duped; but I can believe that worse things than being duped may happen to a man in this world... It is like a general informing his soliders that it is better to keep out of battle forever than to risk a single wound. Not so are victories either over enemies or over nature gained. Our errors are surely not so awfully solumn things. In a world where we are certain to incur them in spite of all our caution, a certain lightness of heart seems healthier than this excessive nervousness on their behalf. William James,
The context in Leviticus and Deuteronomy are vitally important to understand. It’s not as simple as “God ordains slavery.” Alex’s discussion with the Kenectle’s delves into this further and they give an adequate explanation
Atheism is not a pendulum, it’s an anomaly in history that has utterly failed. The people have awoken to the realization that with the removal of God from society, the downfall of society simultaneously occurs because they are inextricably linked, and more importantly it is a false belief. It now faces disintegration, for it offers society nothing but lies and ruin. The future is Theist. ❤
@@realistic_delinquent Yeah, I guess I have heard him say something like that. Still can't understand it entirely though. Not sure if its actually worth trying to, given that if its true then trying would apparently not make a difference.
Think of it like this. If you go to bed early and get adequate sleep. You’re more likely to go to work, exercise, eat well, etc. However if you don’t get enough sleep you’re more likely to not go to work, not exercise, not eat well, etc. There are many inputs that effect outcomes
@@travist2339 So Alex believes a person has sway over their decisions, but not enough to call it “free will”, because they’re not entirely free of influences? To me, that seems like overly complicating the use of the term “free will” in a Peterson-like manner. I would think that if even a single electron in the brain is under control of a conscious soul, then so long as it lends enough sway to alter someone’s course like a rudder steers a ship, then that would meet most people’s definition of free will.
I have to acknowledge Alex, probably gives a better account of the difference between Islam and Christianity, than most other non-muslim podcasters. His understanding of Islam is still flawed but I have to say I'm very surprised by his understanding. He has clearly tried to research the topic in a more honest way than most. He has definitely earned my respect.
What an incredible delivery guys. Incredible I say. I could have sworn I was listening to two of our best Christian apologists today! High theological IQ from you both👏🏼👏🏼 God continues to bless you both. 🙏
Rise of Christian revival is better described as a fall of enlightenment: the period and principles responsible for the greatest improvement in quality of life ever.
No, not really. This view assumes atheism is the pinnacle of enlightenment. It isn’t. Plenty of religious minds contributed to the scientific revolution that led to the enlightenment era.
@@TheMrRelic And most of our physics understanding was contributed by an Alchemist. Yes I think astrology, alchemy, and applying agency to an supernatural world behind the scenes, are all quite against enlightenment (which is just the idea of checking one's and eachother's assumptions)
I just want to point out that conversion can be a process just like deconversion. When you deconvert or deconstruct your faith you start questioning one idea at a time instead of abandoning it all in one go. While many Christian faiths celebrate the once in a lifetime, born-again experience, nothing prevents you from moving to cultural christianity and from there to actual faith. That process can take multiple generations as well, maybe you never believe, but if you raise your children as christians they might end up being true believers.
Why would one want to go to the "actual faith" in the first place? Especially when they already have a decent life by having healthy pracises, just without the religious dogmatism?
@grannyannie2948 I was specifically talking about people who adopted healthy practices (long term monogamous relationship, forming communities, expressing gratitude and taking responsibility vs feeling entitled and always searching to blame someone). There are plenty of those, and I wouldn't describe them as a part of the hell hole; they are too busy living their life rather than being activists
I’m so curious about what a cultural Christian’s honest answer would be to two questions: Firstly, how would you know when the time had come to try something else? And secondly, if you became convinced that Christianity was actually corrosive to civil cohesion, would you stop being a Christian? I think that these sorts of questions get at the main difference between theological and cultural Christians. And I have got to say that theological Christians come across as way more authentic - cultural Christianity seems focused entirely on the mundane world, and in that way it seems to be almost the opposite of a religion. A religion, at the end of the day, is about engaging with a part of reality that is ‘higher’ than the mundane world, and how this higher reality may have correspondingly ‘higher’ claims on you and offer correspondingly ‘higher’ benefits. Get rid of those higher things and I don’t know if you’ve really got a religion anymore - you’ve got a Noble Lie. I think that theological Christians should be cautious about cultural Christian. It may feel like the number of Christians is increasing, but when you eat empty calories you also feel like you’re getting full.
As an Orthodox Jew you probably have a point. Our religion is a religion of action. One that requires actions in all areas of ones life. So for us cultural religiously traditional Jews aren't problematic. If they take so many actions they usually wind up doing it for reasons of faith in the end. The problem with applying it to Christianity is that even in its most orthodox denominations it tends not to make demands over large areas of ones life. So in some areas the person lives a religious life and in Others he lives a secular live. As a result he tends to be vulnerabile to secular influence even when it's wrapped up in cultural Christianity.
As someone who grew up veeeery Christian, I would have viewed a “Cultural Christian” as someone coming in to influence and manipulate. Coming in under ulterior motives.
I have always understood "cultural" Christian to refer to someone who was raised in a Christian environment and is therefore influenced by Christian culture while not being an active believer. In that sense I've never considered it a choice to be made. Any more than any other element of cultural heritage.
I'm not sure what kind of answer you'd expect for that. The people who try to convert for cultural or political reasons are doing it purely because they don't think there's any better option to achieve their ideal type of society. The media puts on a show of disparaging Christianity, and when these people look at the "good old days" they notice a lot of it involved Christianity so they think that must be why it was good. That's the extent of their logic. Sooner or later, when they realize Christianity isn't going to help them realize their ideal society, some of them will abandon those ideals and go all-in on getting to live forever in Heaven and whatnot, and others will move on to some other ideology, probably more oriented to their goals.
@@zhugh9556 I agree with you. I am/was a Catholic who "married into" a Sunni Muslim family. None of us are hot-blooded "believers", but we do find it important to understand each others' history and culture (including why we say bad things about Protestants, and they say bad things about Shi'ites🙃).
As a Christian, I am always glad to hear from an intelligent and honorable atheist like Alex O’Conner. I greatly appreciate this channel and the quality perspectives it offers. It does seem that in trying to address wisdom to help people navigate the modern world, a spiritual dimension is often neglected, and I know that is because Chris is not particularly in that world, but I would love to see him engage more with it. More quality perspectives from all sides willing to have a constructive conversation. I can see Paul Vanderklay being a Christian who would work well on this program.
Honorable? Are you kidding me. The way he paints God as a monster to his audience because of his fundamentalist and literalistic understanding of the OT. Did you watch the Dinesh debate and many others where he interprets Scripture literally? I don't know how many souls caved into atheism because of his fundamentalist approach on Scripture where he selectively cherry picks Scriptures and takes them out of context. Just curious why you name yourself boringbiblestudy. Maybe you too bought into his hermeneutics on Scripture.
@@Shawn-nq7dumy friend, until 5 minutes ago, Christians also believed that. The fact that apologists have had to sanitise the bible because it no longer aligns with modern morality is really the nail in the coffin of the claim that the bible offers any real foundation for an objective morality. And yes, I saw the dinesh debate, and just because Dinesh doesnt have an answer doesn't mean O'Connor is dishonourable. Just that his position doesn't have a great deal to offer. If that debate has lost souls, God should get better arguments
@@Shawn-nq7du When I say honorable, I mean that he is generally charitable towards other Christians and tries to represtent their views accurately. His attacks are towards the arguments and not towards people. What is your definition of honorable? Alex thinks God is evil because of the way he interprets the scriptures and his own value system? This makes him wrong. Can people not be honorable in representing their views while being wrong? I agree he misunderstands verses and misses context sometimes, but cherry picking would suggest he is intentionally doing so. Yes, he has likely led many people to atheism, and that sucks, but I'd rather have someone make good arguments for atheism that get people thinking carefully than sloppy, emotional, uncharitable arguments for atheism which get people caught in their emotions and a false sense of superiority over the Christian views that they never understand. Alex often explains the Christian perspective accurately before explaining why he thinks this is wrong. I'd much prefer two intelligent and charitable interlocutors debating a topic than two idiot blowhards, and I find Alex is someone who is respectful and intelligent who can challenge me without insulting me, so I find that honorable. I chose the name Boring Bible Study because I had been studying Numbers, the book of the Bible I thought was most boring, and found that it was actually kind of interesting when I looked into it more. I wanted an outlet for all the things I had learned, so I started a UA-cam channel to post my thoughts. I thought Boring Bible Study might catch people’s attention which in your case proved true. In retrospect, I've learned how to access much better quality commentaries since my videos on Numbers, so I do not know that the work there holds up very well, but it was a good stepping stone to what I am doing now where I am teaching at church.
@@bbainter7880 Paul Vanderklay has that focus on cultural issues, a breadth of knowledge, and heart for helping people navigate tough issues and the modern world with nuance. I think he'd do great on this channel.
I’ve been dreading watching this because I’m taking an Alex OConnor break. How can you be so sophisticated and so charitable and such a divergent thinker while also being pretty accurate about his historical knowledge. And then look over the fact that Hitler hated the Christian ethos, he locked up tons of Catholics and sent them to their deaths, especially the clergy, I don’t claim to know exactly what God Hitler prayed to, but the way he treated Christians doesn’t show that he was on their side. These atheist apologetics are exhausting 🥱.
These podcasts don't pay for themselves. Studios, equipment, office, fees, airfares, and there are editors, managers and families to feed. Too lazy to click forward but will take the time to complain and be a keyboard warrior. Don't watch then. Unsubscribe. Bye. I doubt Chris would care.
There are multiple missed points in the case of the captive taken in war and subsequently married. 1. Impulsive and irrational treatment of the woman is not allowed. She cannot simply be raped as often happens after battles. Time is given to restore rationality. He must not know her before the journey home, or before meeting his family, or before shaving her hair, ( at which point she is no longer a beautiful woman). Furthermore, she has time to mourn and the couple has time to get to know each other. Marriage provides her with a status as a wife and she gets to avoid starvation. If she goes free, she may go where she pleases. But I think the Hebrew culture was far superior to the surrounding cultures that she would likely be won over by the treatment mentioned above. But overall the above restrictions would make many come to their senses and not get married at all.
A leap of faith is necessary - even Pascal's wager. Blaise Pascal said that it is not possible to prove or disprove that God exists and he thought it is better to bet that God exists.
Great job, Chris, as usual. I've run into several people lately who told me that they were "christians". I would have never known if they hadn't told me first. Not sure what that means...except maybe that the bar is set pretty low.
My adult conversion to Christianity is certainly not about right wing conservatism, for what it's worth. And I know others like me that would make the same assertion. But I wouldn't disagree that those people exist. I think a lot of people are taking the path inward to understand the fruit and the tree at their own pace, regardless of the reason. As they come to understand and experience the tree and fruit, their reasons change along with their heart.
God : "This last sin of despair is graver to me than all the other sins. Souls guilty of despair judge their misery greater than my mercy. (they are assuming Gods unforgiveness) The despair of Judas displeased me more and was more grave to my Son than was his betrayal of Him." Evil spirits of despair and infirmity want to inflict souls & trick them into believing in an unforgiving God. No repentant person will be turned away from God Dialogue of St. Catherine of Siena - catholic mystic. Last segment of clip - as per timestamp 16:34 from UA-cam video “What the Exorcists shared: Demons Masking as gods." From the channel Armor of God: Spiritual Warfare
Let's all start saying prayers for Alex to become a Catholic. 🙏🙏🙏.Sometimes you have to hit rock bottom before you are humbled enough to be brought to your knees and realize there is a possibility that there is something outside yourself. It's early days for Ayaan,.There are so many layers to Christianity.
Alex isn’t a Christian mostly because his view of the good life is little to no suffering, and Christianity actually calls you to suffer. In fact God himself suffers, particularly through Jesus Christ. In the end that’s the issue. All the other arguments are a distraction from that fact. If Alex would see that the good life is not free or as little suffering as possible, he’d see.
Lul, the good old ''they choose to be atheist to live an easier life'' Nah, spirituality is effortless... on the other hand, education and science require actual hard work
Consumer Culture: Modern secular societies often replace religious fulfillment with consumer goods, attempting to fill the void left by the decline of traditional religious values.
Correlation does not mean causation... Just because consumerism went up at the same time as secularism doesn't mean that one is causing the other. And who exactly would be doing this? What atheist has enough power in the U.S. (which is more consumerist than the other less religious western countries) to decide that we will now replace religion with consumerism. Please think about things like this a bit longer before so confidently stating a hypothesis that you won't be able to prove.
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Here's the timestamps:
0:00 Are We Seeing a Christian Revival?
07:53 What’s Causing the Rise of Cultural Christianity?
18:46 Is it Possible to Choose to Believe in God?
23:48 Has Christianity Gone Too Soft?
38:49 Experience of Visiting the Vatican
43:49 Is the Rise in Religion Just a Conservative Movement?
57:59 Christianity as a Prophylactic Against Woke
1:05:33 Why Isn’t There an Islamic Revival?
1:15:31 The Gnostic Gospels
1:27:28 The Gnostic Version of Genesis
1:35:47 Why the Bible is Compiled As it is
1:42:13 Christianity’s Antidote to the Meaning Crisis
1:52:40 Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s Debate With Dawkins
1:59:59 The Figureheads of the Christian Revival
2:06:44 Important Things Ignored by the Media
2:11:24 Where to Find Alex
God : "This last sin of despair is graver to me than all the other sins. Souls guilty of despair judge their misery greater than my mercy. (they are assuming Gods unforgiveness) The despair of Judas displeased me more and was more grave to my Son than was his betrayal of Him."
Evil spirits of despair and infirmity want to inflict souls & trick them into believing in an unforgiving God. No repentant person will be turned away from God
Dialogue of St. Catherine of Siena - catholic mystic.
Last segment of clip - as per timestamp 16:34 from UA-cam video “What the Exorcists shared: Demons Masking as gods." From the channel Armor of God: Spiritual Warfare
A Devout Client of Mary Shall Never Suffer the Loss of His Soul
There was a certain man who was religious in name only, but, wherever true religion was concerned, hard-hearted and careless.
He was, however, in the habit of praying to the Blessed Virgin and saying once everyday a hundred “Hail, Mary’s.” Coming near his end, he was caught away in an ecstasy, and devils charged him before the Great Judge seeking a sentence that would adjudge him to be theirs. God, therefore, knowing his manifold sins, said that he must be condemned.
Meantime the Blessed Virgin came offering schedules in which were contained all the “Hail Mary’s,” and begging her Son to allow him to receive a milder sentence. But the devils brought many books full of his sins. ‘The books on both sides were put into the scales, but the sins weighed most. Then the Blessed Virgin, seeing She was doing no good, earnestly besought her Son, saying:
“Remember, Beloved, that Thou didst receive of my substance, visible, tangible and sensible substance; give to me one drop of Thy blood shed for sinners in Thy passion.”
And he replied: “It is impossible to deny thee anything. Yet know that one drop of my blood weighs heavier than all the sins of the whole world. Receive therefore thy request.”
Receiving it, She placed it in the scales, and all those sins of the religious weighed against it as light as ashes.‘Then the devils departed in confusion, crying out and saying: “The Lady is too merciful to Christians; we fail as often as She comes to contend with us.”
And so the man’s spirit returned to his body, and on recovery he related the whole tale and became a true monk.
Taken From The Glories of Mary By Saint Alphonsus Liguori
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Our Lady explains the Hail Mary to Saint Mechtilde of Helfta (1241-1298):
“My daughter, I want you to know that no one can please me more than by saying Rosary.
The salutation which the Most Adorable Trinity sent to me, and by which He raised me to the dignity of Mother of God.
By the word 'Ave' (which is the name Eve, Eva), I learned that in His infinite power God had preserved me from all sin and its misery, which the first woman had brought upon herself.
The name ‘Mary’ which means ‘Lady of Light’ shows that God has filled me with wisdom and light, like a shining star, to light up Heaven and Earth.
The words ‘full of grace’ remind me that the Holy Spirit has showered so many graces upon me that I am able to give these graces in abundance to those who ask for them through me as Mediatrix.
When people say the ‘Lord is with thee,’ they give to me again the indescribable joy that I received when the Eternal Word became incarnate in my womb.
When you say to me ‘blessed art thou among women,’ I praise Almighty God’s Divine mercy which raised me to this exalted level of happiness.
And at the words, ‘blessed is the Fruit of thy womb, Jesus,’ the whole of Heaven rejoices with me to see my Son Jesus Christ adored and glorified for having saved mankind.”
Just like Alex too he likes the fruits but hates the tree.
7:15 This guy alex is acting like an extraordinary smart person ever born on this planet... Alex were you there that time when that happen?? Can you tell me then what made these people to go away after Jesus had said something??? Dear alex the smartest guy please tell me what did Jesus said then that caused all these angry croud to turn away one by one?????
His confidence of something not seen not heard by himself shames himself.
Do you think alex these people carried a high-tech recorder to record everything????? Don't you know Alex that these are also humen beings?? Don't you know they started writing the Bible after a long time? Don't you know devine intervention was also there as well as human???
26:45 Alex you can't interpret or fram a religion based on what people do. That is silly to even think about. Do you depict and potray parents by what children are doing??? 😂😂😂😂😂
Two possibilities exist: either Alex becomes the greatest atheist of all time or the greatest Christian convert of all time. Both are equally terrifying.
Long money's on convert.
Neither. He'll be another atheist YTer. A good one, but that's it.
@@Janus10001 I agree; I think there's a chance he'll convert at some point. I've seen a few videos like this with him and I do think he's more open to Christianity than he used to be, at least as I see it. I've noticed him almost arguing in favour of Jesus/Christianity and then kind of "correcting" himself with a dismissal of the underlying principles
Atheist is the default position. As comprehension grows, the likelihood of converting grows. Christ already lives rent free in his head. He’s close.
He’s just a poser. I found him quite interesting in the past but now I find him utterly tiring. Just another boring vaccous engagement farmer.
I never would have predicted that I'd be watching two atheist Brits talk about American Christianity on a Friday night, but here I am.
It's sad cuz most brits know next to nothing about what it's like living as an American. Let alone a Christian.
@@ACloudWithoutAirYeah, an Oxford theology-graduate knows next to nothing about Christianity
Is Chris specifically an atheist? I don’t remember him saying I know he isn’t religious
He said he was agnostic.
Now how do you feel that I am one of these people who were driven to question our current reality and by simple observation have come to fully believe in a guiding God hand, and that Jesus was correct. You too can just observe who is happy. Who is. Ot, who is prospering who is not.
All lies are being shown to be false, all narratives of man are falling apart.
The fact that two atheists are having this much charity and nuance about religion answers the original question Chris posed.
You're spot on, I think. This is a very recent attitude towards Christianity among secularists.
@@Bornstella 🙏🏼
I bet that the Viking wannabe that is Rationality Rules is silently fuming at the "soft touch" his atheist bestie is giving to Christianity. Alex isnt too far off heretic status among the anti-theists. 😜
Yeah...he gives it loads in debates, I feel to try to stick it to the fundamentalist in the US but he rather cosys up to his Catholic and Anglican brothers on this side of the pond. 😎
@@Bornstella when trump has us in his evangelical theocracy, they’ll swing the other way. Just watch.
Lol good point
I think people are just getting tired with how degenerate society has become. From music, media, life, everything is over seggualized, people are cold blooded, selfish, and glorify manipulating and treating people like trash, etc. People get tired of that and end up craving stability, safety, and morals.
Was about to write a comment to this effect but you put it perfectly.
Too scared of words to write sexualized correctly
@@matjaz5684 it's because of YT censoring, and out of respect for his channel.
Yes we have lost our compass
stability, safety and morals....religion isn't necessary to satiate these needs.
Your bromance with Alex is pretty entertaining to watch lol
I watch every podcast lol
It’s cringe and gay tbh
@@beansdestroyerhaving friends is cringe and gay what 💀
The whole interview should have ended with a kiss.
Fellas, is it gay to have friends?
These two gentlemen are having a cordial conversation about Cultural Christianity, and I'm here for it! Love it!
Alex is so good at analyzing different phenonomens objectivly whitout giving his own view of it.
In his conversations I usually come away being more empathetic to both sides of the issue. (: I like it.
I don't think he has an opinion on a lot of it. Anytime he does give an opinion he is probably playing devils advocate. His position on God is he doesn't believe their is a God and he doesn't believe there is not a God and he doesn't believe there is any evidence (even hypothetical ) that could convince him either way.
But he has fun analysis a lot of the theories behind them and poking holes in them, even though his theory that free will is not real some amount of logic twisting to make remotely plausible.
@@WeakeyedominantIt's very reasonable to assume that we do not have free will from the lens of determinism, which suggests that our thoughts and actions are influenced by a chain of prior causes-everything from our genetics to our environment shapes our decisions. If we think about how many factors are beyond our control, it raises the question of how "free" our choices truly are.
Additionally, cognitive science has shown that many of our decisions are made subconsciously before we become aware of them. This doesn't negate our experiences or feelings of agency; rather, it offers a different perspective on how our minds operate. In this sense, questioning free will isn't about denying human experience, but rather seeking a deeper understanding of how our brains function within a larger framework of cause and effect.
As a Christian I really enjoy listening to Alex articulate his views regarding religion & Christianity in particular. Gives me great insight on how to approach non believers and atheists.
Agreed. He is a respectful, articulate and intelligent non believer. He gets the value of the Good News, even if he lacks faith in it. That's how we draw them in. Come for the cultural Christianity, stay for the salvation.
Please don’t approach us we aren’t interested
@@Twittchyy Peace be with you
@@Twittchyy I will and you can't stop me. Lol
@@Twittchyy You approached
The most relevant "Will of the Father" is for us to return to Him. While returning to Him, we are embodying Him, and we resemble as much as possible with Him in mercy, in kindness, in forgiveness, in divine love, in the self sacrifice for the lost ones to return as the sons and daughters to their Maker.
This presupposes a lot of speculative and logically disastrous nonsense.
@highroller-jq3ix Are you trying to gaslight me? Try harder! At least display your valuable logical thinking. So far, you only displayed empty words and unsustained labels.
In my opinion, Alex's understanding of Jesus in Christianity as the Word becoming flesh and the Quran in Islam as the Word becoming a book is profoundly perceptive. I have never heard anyone make this kind of comparison before.
It is, but he took that from other scholars. It's a pretty common way to compare the two.
@@chellya2004 Wanting to be sure if you were right, I looked it up. Apparently, Kenneth Cragg, an Anglican bishop and scholar, in his 1956 book, "The Call of the Minaret," made this description of the two. Now I know.
@@stevesmith4901 Theodore Noldeke pointed to this distinction between the two religions 150 years ago. Scholastic philosopher Thomas Aquinas comes pretty close too,almost 800 years ago.
That’s not a point against Alex though, it just means he is well read and agrees with key thinkers throughout history. So he’s probably right on the point.
@@wessjr08 True, but if this had been an original observation by Alex, it would have been phenomenal. I was under the impression that it was. So, I'm just slightly disappointed, that's all. Regardless, Alex is still pretty insightful on religion.
I'm a Christian, and these are two of the most interesting people on the planet. I love both Chris and Alex's approach to these ideas. I hope they are a bridge for my generation for a higher value of ethics.
Check out Jay Dyer
I'd love that but I think fear still rules the decisions of most people and, even worse perhaps, people who are in denial that they are ruled by fear. Basically animals with weapons of mass destruction. But did Jesus not say, "Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness..." He did NOT say, "Blessed are those *who persecute others* because of righteousness..."
@@CartoonistDaveso you believe in a guy that is against the rights and freedoms you have today?
@@louisdeniau8571 dont believe in him, i believe in Jesus Christ. But Jay makes great content that defends and explains orthodoxy. What rights does he want to take away again?
Chris and Alex the most interesting people on the planet? You have my sympathies, sir 😂
Alex O'Connor, already one of the greats.
Lol, no.
Yeah I think he’s well read but doesn’t have a lot to add to anything.
@@CriticalDispatches you’re just mad because you are make-believe friends don’t exist 😂
🤡🤡🤡
🤣
Alex and Christ are a great double act. Sniping at each other and smiling as they enjoy the joust. Both are genuine people striving to gain the truth. Their discussion is both edifying and entertaining.
Did you mean Chris or Christ? 😂
@@coreyjury6587😅
They do seem interested in truth, such a rare quality these days. What if Jesus was right, "The truth will set you free", but so many of us would much rather be comfortable, and some even love the comfort so much they willing to kill for it. Maybe, truly "narrow is the path…"?
@@coreyjury6587 I missed that. The spell corrector in YT is appalling. Thanks.
You mean Chris not Christ right? Though both might be true… 😮
Thanks Chris. Now the image of you being the “middle of the human centipede” between Alex and Sam is forever burned into my memory.
I suspect that even when the pews were full, there was a significant percentage of Cultural Christians in them.
the folks who enjoy the benefits of the fruit, but do little to nothing to appreciate the plant. thankfully, our offer of service is to a higher power and not only them
Please have Alex on quarterly AT LEAST. I love all your conversations with him!
I’m just a common cleaner and shop worker but I’ve definately felt a revival of REAL Christianity in the UK. I’m a catechumen in the Eastern Orthodox Church and looking forward to being baptised.
Glory to God ☦️
Glory to God!
These guys should also try Eastern Orthodoxy. The shock about "all this Jesus thing is just a spectacle" would probably vanish, if they witnessed a vigil in a monastery.
God bless you brother
god i love alex i could listen to him to talk all day
I was raised very Christian but it has lapsed in adulthood, and I have found a more religious experience in the study of history, philosophy, and literature. I have a soft spot for religions in that I find them to be fascinating, and part of the reason I enjoy conversations featuring Alex O'Connor is because I can relate to one being compelled to study religion without accepting them as fact. I don't wish to be governed by religious law, and just the same as I would be against any form of legislating religion for the masses, I will also always be in favor of the freedom to worship and believe as one sees fit. Thanks for the great conversation, Chris.
I’m talking as a Christian and Christianity was never meant to be a governing rule or law. Jesus even said that: “Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and render unto God what is God’s” or when He said: “My sovereignty is not of this world.”
@@BroJo676of course it was. That's the sole point of religion. Especially monotheistic ones. From your own version of the supernatural, tell me about the doctrine of 2 swords in the garden of Gethsemane.
You've used the term religion and religious multiple times and I get the impression they have slightly different meanings depending on the context. What do YOU mean by religion and religious?
@@guywilletts2804 History also shows quite the contrary to what you’re saying. Christianity became a major religion from the moment on which it became the state religion of the Roman Empire back in 380 through the Edict of Thessaloniki. Before that, even when Christianity no longer was forbidden in the Roman Empire, all the Roman rulers, from the very first August to the very last in 376, were required to also act as the Roman religious leader aka Pontifex Maximus (the Greatest Priest in Latin). The Christianity adoption put an end to that because it’s legitimately understood that Jesus was not searching for and uninterested in gaining some form of political power.
Now, I’m not denying there could be some influence from religious institutions but the absolute power never belonged to the Church and history clearly shows it.
I need it but I don't believe it.. I'm in denial lol
Also in Deuteronomy 21:14 "But if you no longer delight in her, you shall let her go where she wants. But you shall not sell her for money, nor shall treat her as a slave, since you have humiliated her." Around time stamp 1:02:00 Alex mentions the Captures of war.
Thankfully Christians believe in the new covenant and would consider the Old Testament non moral laws as for a specific time in the past, given in a corrupt culture.
One can be a follower of Jesus and yet not affirm that all the Old Testament laws came from God word for word. Much of it reflects the authors of that time’s views.
The likes of Pete Enns and Gregory Boyd are good writers to go to on the trouble of the Old Testament. Also, you can read Origen of Alexandria in the early church work’s who said that Christians should take a deeper, spiritual understanding of all scripture and where possible a literal understanding.
What point are you trying to make? He was talking about you enslaving her and your point is that you wouldn't be allowed to resell her? Your bored with her so let her go is a good moral thing?
@@mmoreno7137
Full quote:
"When you go to war against your enemies and the Lord your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. If you are not pleased with her, let her go wherever she wishes. You must not sell her or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her."
This passage talks about a situation when you found a woman who you like and how to properly treat her.
Its aparent to me that while this isnt good for our modern day morals its incredibly progressive for the time, you can say that christianity isnt essentially moral and good because it allows bad things, but it seems to me it always allows a less bad flavour of bad. If the only times slavery is brought up the prhasing is ''you can own people, but dont mistreat them'' its clear that the underlying message is morally good, its just constrained by its time
I was surprised he brought this up to be honest given how good he'd been elsewhere in this conversation. Deuteronomy is a book from the Old Testament, while all of the universalising tendencies Tom Holland brings up are really located in the New Testament. There are tons of things in the OT that are considered obsolete or no longer binding. Christians eat pork!
Because its a shorthand way of saying, "I'm atheist for all practical purposes, but I still acknowledge that as a society we have to work together on solving our communal problems, and as a general rule, I tend to rely on what might broadly be called 'christian' values."
Yup. Acknowledging christian values is huge. That's just one step away from believing in the law/value giver. That's what it was for me in any case
@@SwolePatrol_1969 Ok, except "Christian values" are not unique to Christianity. It's more that Christianity has claimed credit for them in a society that happens to be predominantly Christian, so its expedient to just let the pretense continue. But the point is we can have "Christian values," in this colloquial sense, without having "the law/value giver," which, it seems to me, is the unnecessary step that only serves to ruin the whole enterprise.
Just because someone says they are a Christian doesn't mean they are one. That is why Jesus said 'you will know them by their fruit'. As a Christian, I should not act, look, or talk like the rest of the world. If I do, follow brethren should be concerned for me.
We no longer buy that excuse. Just admit what we already know about such an aweful self-righteous people.
In your photo, you look pretty much like the rest of us. I can't imagine how you can hope to spread your "message" if you doggedly refuse to "act, look, or talk like the rest of the world".
Amen! My grandson, at age 13, claimed to be an atheist. His father is a professor at an Ivy League where quite a few of the students are atheists, and they live on campus. I think he thought it was cool and made him look smarter. Now, at 15, he has softened a bit. When they visited me at Christmas, he offered to go to Church with me, which was a surprise. When he came home, he told his parents that Christians are nicer people than his atheist friends, and then he told them I think I want to marry a Christian girl. What a delight to hear.
One of the top scientists in the U.S., Dr. Francis Collins, was an atheist. He has a PhD in chemistry from Yale and then decided to get an M.D. He was the director of NIH and worked under three presidents. He was the lead scientist of the Human Genome Project, which saved millions of people. After noticing his religious patients lived better, were healthier, and handled serious illness better, he looked into Christianity at the advice of his patient. He became a Christian and has written several books on God. I love his book, "A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief, The Language of God." He takes it from a scientific viewpoint why belief in God is reasonable and why the Christian God makes sense.
@@tomcoop9750 Christians are often on the deserving end of criticism
@@petretepner8027 If I'm kind while others are rude, loving to those with hate, longsuffering in times of trial..all because I have HIS love. This speaks volumes.
After speaking to numerous people over the years about Christ, I’m coming around to the fact that, while the mind has to be engaged, it’s really the state of the heart that I now look for. I think that’s the fundamental lesson of the parable of the Sower and the Seed.
The lesson right after the parable is that Jesus speaks in parables for the explicit purpose of people having a hard time understanding him my dude.
The idea of parables is to make the words palatable. If yoi say to a person "go to the gym", they will tell you to go take a walk. If you take 5 minutes to beautifully engage with them about health and whatnot, way bigger chance of getting them into a gym
@@newme1589 Not according yo Jesus.
@newme1589, Only to those who understand the “language” of the Scriptures. Once you do understand it, it opens up worlds of depth of meaning. “But to those outside, everything else is in parables” Mark 4:11.
Alex's portrait of Christianity is refreshing! Knowledgeable & Historically employable 🙏Good show Chris 👍
Christian revival is somewhat to do with a fight back against Islam, or taking a cultural side.
It’s atheists realizing Islam has a huge growth and wanting to make Christianity rival Islam. Choosing teams basically. But how would that help Christian’s when fake Christian’s join while Islam requires actual thought and dedication to chose Islam. Islam will continue to grow the more people open their eyes
@@abdiahmed1371 The thing is that cultural Christianity cannot help actual believers regardless of how much they engage in wishful thinking. The moment the trans-ideology and wokism go down (assuming they will, which I am not sure about) the old things that drove people away from Christianity in the first place (the stance on homosexuality & abortion, purity culture, mental gymnastics to justify biblical claims etc.,) will cause all those self-proclaimed cultural Christians to move away as quickly as they joined. And yes, Islam will continue to grow as long as countries don't change their immigration policies and don't adopt integration-first approach. I doubt that this will happen as such stance requires the acknowledgment that cultures are not equal.
@@three_owl_night I agree with all that u said except Islam will continue to grow whether immigration/integration is managed or not. The reason why is because Islam teaches that devotion and morals is for God and from God. Everything a Muslim does is with the belief that God will judge them on it and will either reward them or punish them and that this life that last less than a 100 years is not greater than the next life that last forever. Paradise is worth the struggle and is motivation to do good in this life so that you live there best life in the next
Not in the US. In the US, immigration makes us more Christian, not less.
You seem to be ignoring the quiet irreligiosity growing amongst muslims, particularly younger muslims.
It would be interesting to see Chris Williamson talk to someone like Father Mike Schmitz.
Definitely
That would be almost uncomfortably based in the best way possible
💯
Bishop Barron would be amazing.
Solid idea! Mike Schmitz is BASED
What an unbelievably interesting conversation.
Edit; will have to revisit this, so much value and I've found myself with a great admiration of Alex and will be exploring his thoughts more, thanks again.
I do agree that many of these so called "Christians" do not walk like one. Always lean to their own understanding and never open their mind and/or ears to others because they think what they think it is true and absolute. Not only what they think, but their knowledge is that of a child; Surface level understanding, and they take these surface level understanding as absolute truth without exploring.
It's more because they don't care nor find the need to. They just like to play pretend to be part of the group.
@@Fernando-ek8jp Because it helps them personally or socially.
I never thought Id come back to Christianity, I was convinced it was false. But the gospel's undeniable attachment to caring for the needy and oppressed actually brought me back.
But can you not be convinced of their good-heartedness while also demonstrating the same perceived good-heartedness without needing the framework of an organized religion?
Cheers
In that case you (and all Christians) would be equally fulfilled spending 4 hours every Sunday serving the needy surely?
@@XinwylFumudaiski Oh yes, but it seems we as humans sorta need that extra push. By and large. What I see is in these volunteer spaces, while there are a handful of people who do it without any religious or otherwise compelling motivation, even in the secular organizations with secular money, the people showing up to volunteer are overwhelmingly religiously motivated. A Christian has an extra voice in his head that he believes to be God that an atheist just simply doesn't have.
@@judegrindvoll8467 Moreso. I volunteer at my church every Monday night where we house the homeless and feed them and sit and talk with them and help them to feel human again, and the interfaith organization we work with helps them with clothing, transportation and employment. I look forward to the Monday nights more than I do Sundays.
There's another church here that pooled all their money together and instead of building a super church, they bought an entire city block and built transitional housing for the homeless and recovering drug addicts. Still the same tiny little church, but they do SO MUCH good.
Alex is only 24. Couple more years, I’d guess.
Alex is brilliant. I am a Christian and like listening to him.
I would describe myself as a cultural Christian. Being bought up in a Christian society, with its culture and values, obviously leaves an imprint on you. It is very familiar and comforting, not necessarily in any spiritual way though. My brain cannot except, anything that is not grounded in reality. It’s just the way it works.
It doesn’t stop me appreciating Christian values and its long cultural history. The beautiful churches and cathedrals and amazing coral music. It is all part of my heritage. I believe it’s definitely worth fighting for.
God is as real as it gets, my bro. Do you think atoms spontaneously appeared and randomly collided till we have humans with eyes and brains with consciousness? Intelligent design is obvious.
@@patrick9445 If God has the power to create the universe and all life, why children with cancer my bro?
@@patrick9445 that's a nice straw man of naturalism.
@@Maxfox11 Search 'Apologetics' on UA-cam. There are many eloquent answers to that question.
A common view is that life is a very short test and suffering is part of existence for all people before we spend eternity in bliss. That is an excellent deal on balance.
During our time on Earth, man has free will and he is free to make life awful for other people. Additionally, as mortal beings, we will all get sick, suffer and die. This will happen at different times for different people for different reasons. Cancer as a child. Parkinson's at 80. Christians don't pretend to know why people die. We just try to accept it and appreciate the time we have.
Having gratitude for life and stoic acceptance of suffering are just some of the gifts that come from Christianity.
@@Maxfox11 Cancer comes from the toxic environment and stress (food etc.) caused by humans. We have been given a freedom of choice. There are things we can do to help people. Some peopIe choose to not care. Do you, help kids with cancer?
l've experienced tumors myseIf, but have aIso heaIed. l came to reaIize that my body did the exact correct thing in moving the toxins into the tumors, when it just couIdn't do aII the work in removing the toxins, because of my own unheaIthy IifestyIes and choices. The stress was a huge part of the cause, but it got greatIy aIIeviated with prayer. Because with faith l dropped the urgent need to stressfully controI everything and everyone around me. And then my tumor started to shrink.
Chris,
I watched a Christian testimony from Isaiah Saldivar yesterday that was very impactful, and I think it would be so cool to listen to you interview him (a fully convinced Christian).
Also John Burke who wrote a book about near death experiences and people who’ve encountered Jesus through that (even atheists and followers of other religions).
Thanks for the great conversations!
Isaiah teaches a false gospel. All the deliverance ministries are deceiving people. Revealing Truth youtube channel shows many examples of Isaiah's false teachings.
No such thing as a convinced Christian
@@undiscoveredstars1002 okay then a real Christian
I'm not an emotional person and when I hear the music come on I zone out for the whole worship time. Everyone is typically really into the music and have their hands raised, we are known for our band. However, when the scripture is read I always get goosebumps and get the feels ..
Everyone likes a fairytale
Good stuff Chris.
In the last three you went from AI to Chaos theory, to a conversation about Christianity. Always surprised by the your breadth of topics.
Keep it coming.
Such diversity!
Around 11:24 more I realize that Alex forgets the entire Eastern philosophy and "religion" like daoism and zen. No need to appeal to an "other" or "sacred" outside, the sacred, for we are and all is sacred and profane at the same time. Everything just is. It's very liberating and what the seekers in the west need to hear.
You are wrong...
He knows that Eastern Philosophy of "finding God inside yourself" is one of the worst possible Philosophical ideas.
Love the God inside yourself is to Love yourself. Finding Peace inside you is to ignore all those who need help outside you.
You can understand it better from a Slavoj Zizek book called "Christian Atheism".
PS: There are many Christian books better than this one, criticizing Buddhism for example, but I am not going to recommend it.... I know you wouldn't read them just because they are Christian books .... Better recommend a Left wing Atheist book to explain what I am trying to say.
@@alextyze I can appreciate your comment. Not sure you understand eastern concepts well but you had limited space to explain. It's not about finding god within yourself or to love yourself, and if it was that would still not negate helping others suffering. It's difficult to liberate others from suffering if you are suffering yourself internally. I was a Christian for over 30 years and spent 7 years of it in a theological seminary. Most likely a lot of what you've read and found helpful I might have read or approached from a different writer or perspective. Nevertheless, I still hold that Alex' discussions will be greater once he begins to look at and incorporate more eastern approaches but his audience, like yourself, likely would find it to different an environment to comprehend and incorporate easily.
How can you be both sacred and profane at the same time? To be sacred it to be set apart for a specific purpose. It's impossible to be set apart and also adulterated with that which is NOT sacred.
why do you call them things
sacred and profane if they are the same?
@@corygiesbrecht9133I wouldn't necessarily say that it's because the environment would be too different to comprehend (though it may be part of it). But it's mostly about relevance, most of his audience is not interested in eastern religion which is why he doesn't talk about it much.
Great call Chris. Love your style and choice of guests. I have been watching Alex since he was a young person. He is a gifted speaker and a wise and gentle conversationalist who seems to leave his ego at home every time he comes out to play. This may be my favourite of all of his conversations. And we have you to thank. Cheers.
I agree to a point, I was raised Christian and became an agnostic in part because of Dawkins and Hitchens. The argument was always you can me moral without subscribing to Christianity but does seem like the last decade that the atheist movement ostracizes anyone that doesn’t subscribe to a more progressive ideology politically. Think Hitchens would be considered a bigot by many in the atheist sphere and possibly critiqued because he had friends who were Christian
Doesn’t seem like that to me tbf
I recoil automatically as soon as a ‘movement’ starts to feel like a dogma…. And I suspect Hitchens would have too.
I don’t get why people are blaming the new atheists for all the progressive ideologies. Seems more a product of postmodernism
By progressive do you mean let the gays be? Or healthcare is a right not a privilege? Or something else?
I feel that the cause and effect is the other way around. People will rationally change their belief based on what they see is more convenient to act on, and very few people actually have the meta-cognitive ability to see what they are doing. I think that the reality hits first before beliefs, not the other way around. People are blindly following this cult of ridiculous progressiveness not because they decided not to believe in Christianity but because what they want in their life is against the teaching of Christianity.
I see them as "atheist by convenience". And I actually do not like these progressive political ideologies, despite being an atheist myself. I'm an atheist not because it's convenient for me, but because I think it's just the right answer. Political ideologies has nothing to do with my reason for being atheist. And people who are, in my opinion, is just an opportunist than anything else.
Alex needs to debate John Lennox.
That would be watchable.
The problem with most debates including Lennox is that no matter how intelligent if they believe in evolution they will be devoured by Alex. They need to read creation science material and then they are prepared to defend the truth without weakening their defence with compromise
Can you choose to believe? Isn’t that the whole point of faith? Despite having doubts, making the brave decision to believe, and then hoping for the fruits.
As a Christian, brought up in a Christion home in the UK, back in the 80's and 90's and being more or less bullied for my beliefs at school, it blows my mind to hear two people who are so well known and who barely believe in God, talk for 2 hours about the rise of Christianity. It's quite heart warming really. I have been a part of a number of different churches through my life, of all different styles and varieties and I have definitely seen a "change in the wind" as it were. I feel like culturally the west went through a phase of turning away from God, thinking that it was just infantile and that science rules the day and we should be able to live how we like and "you do you, man"....but we are now seeing how that has just caused the moral fabric to fall apart and I think people are starting to realise things don't really go very well when we try to do things our own way. It feels like people are starting to think "maybe there is something to this Christianity thing". I know church attendance has been declining in the West for a long time, but I feel like things are bottoming out now and the tide is beginning to turn. My personal experience has been that while the stablished traditional churches have been dying out, a new generation of churches has been growing up in their place, with a fresh take on things stylistically, but still sticking to the core beliefs of the gospel. It will be interesting to see how things pan out.
I’m a Christian. It is definitely a choice to believe. I think biblically it is meant to be a choice.
There are many reasons I choose to believe, and it’s in the convergence of these reasons that it really becomes pretty easy to have faith, but it took me many years to get to this point.
One reason that’s often overlooked but is indirectly touched upon in this conversation is the truth found in “goodness.”
When I test the way of Jesus in my life it’s always just good. For example, if I have an argument with my wife, and I surrender it to God and think how would God want me to react and treat her… boom it’s always good. I let my pride and resentment guide me… it’s always bad.
This is just one example. But true in literally every aspect of my life. It’s basically become a law of nature to me. It’s good therefore it’s true.
“God saw all that He had made, and it was very good.”
Why don't you try and choose to believe allah split the moon.
Truth, beauty, and goodness, the three transcendentals, lead many to God.
I don't understand how you find it a choice to believe. Can you believe there is no gravity? Can you go up a very tall tower and decide that you can fly?
It sounds you’re choosing to believe the good stuff in the Bible and maybe choosing to ignore some of the not-so-good stuff. Which is fine, those are the best kinds of Christians.
@@markallen8022because the existence of God can neither be proven nor disproven; it’s a choice each of us has to make, and reasonable minds can and have disagreed.
I love the chemistry between these two - it’s easy to see they’re good friends.
Australia is not what I would consider a particularly religious country. But the revelation that Australia had its first openly atheist prime minister in the 2010s was a very big deal. Very interesting to read back on that
Fellow Australian, we are actually more Christian then you think. 30% of parents and rising use fee charging Christian schools. Christianity is still the majority religion at about 50%, in the UK it is a minority. Was it Kevin Rudd?
@@grannyannie2948that’s a shame
@@undiscoveredstars1002 Why?
As an aussie we aren’t super religious in fact out of all my religious friends I only know one that follows it😂
@@Chicky1234-m3f We are not big church goers. But it's rare to meet an Australian who is completely atheist with no spiritual beliefs. I babysit after school, and the state of the government schools is so bad, most children are very devout, because they go to Christian schools. As for the far right, which I think was the topic of conversation, it is true, because we have freedom of religion in Australia, but we don't have freedom of speech.
Life without religion is scary, many people just aren’t capable of handling it
How ?
I was never scared of life
Scary? The safest countries on the planet are completely secular... it's religion that makes countries scary
It's true that nihilism is bleak in many ways, and can be difficult to accept. But once accepted it works out fine.
@@dodumichalcevskiI think it’s death/finality and the meaninglessness that scares people
@@travist2339
Yeah but doenst make it true 🤷
1:12:05 A Muslim friend I met at work essentially told me the same thing in as many words. It was very helpful in understanding their perspectives better as I was ignorant beforehand.
I have a question,
in christianity can free will,
exist independently from the devil?
or the devil must exist to make free will possible?
Best moment was Alex saying he was a cultural gym bro lol
Christopher hitchens converted me into the new atheist movement back when I was in college. And never looked back. Until I had an encounter with Christ. It completely changed my whole worldview. I know the skeptics will reject this, as I did back then, but I can only say it’s true.
I was the same but it was with Allah (glory be to Him) and the prophet Mohammed (peace be upon him). Very powerful experience.
Again cool but that is not i repeat IS NOT evidence for anything, I could also say I didn't believe in the force until I had an encounter with ghost Obi Wan Kenobi.
@ that literally makes no sense.
As someone that grew up in more spiritual not religious household organized religion had always been iffy with me. Early there were the decent experiences of attending service during the holidays but over time as I learned about how its lead to wars, seen preachers screaming into a microphone on the street and getting harassed by Jenovah’‘s Witness/Mormons while waiting for the bus and at home it became less appealing.
However, having survived several suicide attempts; my parents late divorce; my aunt’s cancer diagnosis; my brother becoming mentally il and having three near death experiences (not all in that order) I just know there is a God. Not mention hanging out at church events for the free food & seeing how some in our culture idolize mortal politicians over an internal God, the former seems a lot more chill.
folks are converting from shia islam to Christianity in iran and as a newly converted christian i enjoyed this massively and i gotta say both of you are close 😄
Why does shia does not cut the mustard seeds anymore for them?
Honestly , Shia are not Muslim. There is no following one the Quran.
So I would not consider them Muslim I would rather refer to them as Christianity 2.0. As they worship religious figures which are not god.
@@aks1521 Can you prove that God exists by chance?
@@goarmysleepinthemud. I don’t understand the question.
I can only share what I believe.
My belief in a creator is due to the beautiful designs of animals and different/distinct beautiful designs of humans and many things that suggests to me that we are designed but not by chance.
I believe life is a test so that is why there is evil and good.
These are some verses from the Quran about the tests of life and the purpose of creation.
1. **Surah Al-Baqarah (2:155-157)**:
- "And We will surely test you with something of fear and hunger and a loss of wealth and lives and fruits, but give good tidings to the patient, who, when disaster strikes them, say, 'Indeed we belong to Allah, and indeed to Him we will return.' Those are the ones upon whom are blessings from their Lord and mercy. And it is those who are the [rightly] guided."
2. **Surah Al-Imran (3:186)**:
- "You will surely be tested in your possessions and in yourselves. And you will surely hear from those who were given the Scripture before you and from those who associate others with Allah much abuse. But if you are patient and fear Allah - indeed, that is of the matters [worthy] of determination."
3. **Surah Al-Ankabut (29:2-3)**:
- "Do the people think that they will be left to say, 'We believe' and they will not be tried? But We have certainly tried those before them, and Allah will surely make evident those who are truthful, and He will surely make evident the liars."
4. **Surah Al-Mulk (67:2)**:
- "[He] who created death and life to test you [as to] which of you is best in deed - and He is the Exalted in Might, the Forgiving."
5. **Surah Al-Insan (76:2-3)**:
- "Indeed, We created man from a sperm-drop mixture that We may try him; and We made him hearing and seeing. Indeed, We guided him to the way, be he grateful or be he ungrateful."
These are some verses from the Quran about the tests of life and the purpose of creation.
1. **Surah Al-Baqarah (2:155-157)**:
- "And We will surely test you with something of fear and hunger and a loss of wealth and lives and fruits, but give good tidings to the patient, who, when disaster strikes them, say, 'Indeed we belong to Allah, and indeed to Him we will return.' Those are the ones upon whom are blessings from their Lord and mercy. And it is those who are the [rightly] guided."
2. **Surah Al-Imran (3:186)**:
- "You will surely be tested in your possessions and in yourselves. And you will surely hear from those who were given the Scripture before you and from those who associate others with Allah much abuse. But if you are patient and fear Allah - indeed, that is of the matters [worthy] of determination."
3. **Surah Al-Ankabut (29:2-3)**:
- "Do the people think that they will be left to say, 'We believe' and they will not be tried? But We have certainly tried those before them, and Allah will surely make evident those who are truthful, and He will surely make evident the liars."
4. **Surah Al-Mulk (67:2)**:
- "[He] who created death and life to test you [as to] which of you is best in deed - and He is the Exalted in Might, the Forgiving."
5. **Surah Al-Insan (76:2-3)**:
- "Indeed, We created man from a sperm-drop mixture that We may try him; and We made him hearing and seeing. Indeed, We guided him to the way, be he grateful or be he ungrateful."
Happy to come on any time Chris!
That would be an epic interview. I hope it happens.
I follow the way(you would call me Christian) . Alex takes an approach to discussing the impact, critiquing the areas that don’t add up, and fearlessly holding everyone to account (better had done your homework when you sit down to have a discussion with Alex), is so refreshing as a follower of the “way, the truth, the life”. Thank you Alex, I’ve grown in my understanding and perspective listening to you.
One of your best convos yet, Chris. I am a Christian and a pastor (yep, a megachurch pastor), and I loved this conversation. Great job being charitable with views you don't agree with. Alex, super fair representation of Christianity overall. Thanks for that.
Chris, I have great respect that you tried out a church on Easter. Well done! It might help to think of the rock band, pyrotechnics, and LED wall as modern packaging on the ancient message of the Gospel.
The Gnostic discussion was super interesting, though Gnosticism, as a philosophy, wasn't really developed till well after the NT era, and it glommed onto everything (Judaism, Christianity, even the Greek/Roman pantheon).
Alex, when you say to "flip open the Old Testament" and see what you find (as an illustration of Judeo-Christian values), perhaps what you find is the chaos of a society or people that rejects Judeo-Christian values that the Bible actually endorses.
One thing to dig into more would be the meaning of the Cross and Resurrection of Jesus. What does the New Testament (and Old) say about the meaning of those things? It's worth checking into. Keep following after truth... it's the one journey to never give up on.
Chris, earlier in the comments, Justin Brierley offered himself to be interviewed by you... look him up. He's very well-known and extremely knowledgeable. That would be top-class interview and would draw one of your largest audiences ever. You'd really like him, too. Thanks again for a fascinating conversation.
Jesus was gay
Mega church’s are money siphons for poor people
I knew God was real when I was given everything in youth, yet had suicidal ideation and addictions beyond my control. I studied theology and philosophy for years and ended up believing Jesus Christ is truly The Word in Flesh. I’m still trying to be more like him.
@@warbler1984 it’s abusive to study the Bible and theology for several years, come to believe God and then through Jesus I’ve began to transform my life and everyone around me is noticing?
God didn’t put myself in that situation, I did. With my free will and bad decisions I ended up where I was. What are you even saying? It’s not “relief” either. It’s helping me overcome ACTUAL abusive relationships with addiction and substances. Do you know anything about Christianity? If someone finds meaning in things, that’s an abusive relationship to you? I’m sorry you grew up that way, that must be very difficult. Good luck man, I wish you the best
@@henryconner780 I think what he's saying is that its kinda fucked up to put someone in that situation in the first place knowing that such a life would lead to despair and agony, and god "did nothing until you believed." Its not like a person came into your life and made a change with their presence. Its a supposed god who knows and plans your whole life supposedly before your born. If gods were real then they would make sure there are ways to ensure someone will have a happy life and not lose their free will doing it. But no, he intentionally made the events of your life lead to drugs addictions and feelings of suicide. Also God didn't give you strength at all you found the strength within yourself to overcome those obstacles. Stories like yours are great but when i hear people not give themselves the credit they deserve and give it to some god, its just frustrating.
Also Grew up Baptist and reading the bible was ONE of the things that lead to my deconstruction....Hell i think it single handedly started me to question my birth religion in the first place. Its a pretty fucked up book all through, but especially the old testament. Definitely not for children.
believe or don't believe, its clearly helped you, but the fact i can go to india and find people saying the same thing about hinduism, and Saudi Arabia with Islam, is pretty damning for any religion
@@XxUSAF1RExX… jesus christ wishes he was you.
Can i pray to you?
Cuz GODDAMN that shit was impressive.
I literally could not have said it better myself.
Like do you have any other comments to people i can read, cuz that shit made my whole day… and i just woke up.
Live Long Legend
@@XxUSAF1RExX I’m Christian Orthodox. We believe free will, I had thought my responsibility was implied through my free will. It seems you don’t understand Orthodox theology, that’s perfectly fine, you have never been exposed to it maybe.
We believe God knows our lives and how they would unfold in every scenario. So it’s not Orthodox to believe God made me do evil, that’s heretical. I chose to do evil, I chose to let temptations control my life, and I chose to ignore the good. I chose to be weak hearted and let worldly pleasures destroy me.
The Father most certainly gave me strength through Jesus Christ, and his teachings has given me profound strength in my life.
We Orthodox truly believe that suffering and going through what I did for example, is in many ways a gift from God. For it makes man holy to go through suffering, it makes man have love and humility in his heart. That’s a serious blessing.
You contradict yourself, you claim God is the one who made me do evil things, but yet, when I mention the strength and courage I’ve gotten through God, you easily dismiss God for being the one to help me. It’s contradictory at its core, and lacks logical cohesion. Of course, I understand I chose to start doing good.
I also think your broad parallels to other religions is dishonest and vague I’ve studied world religions in college at University of Michigan, while there may be some parallels it really isn’t the same.
@@XxUSAF1RExX agree. If one focuses on their own things and have a relationship with Jesus, that can bring oneself from the misery and make them have a better, more fulfilled life. But the moment you start looking beyond your own community and see other people having similar experiences through other religions, things get quite tricky.
And to think Alex is so young… soooooo curious how he’ll develop as he ages. I find him fascinating to listen to. I find his skepticism and immense curiosity about religion very appealing and more honest than many preachers of whatever (whether atheism or theism)
Is this new or just that there is a term for it now?
Honestly have known lots of "cultural Christians" back when I was actually "in the church" some 20 years ago.
Yup thats exactly what I was thinking.
Exactly. It’s not new.
It's a new term for it. I assume because people today are too afraid to call them "fake Christians"
It's more like it used to be something really taboo back in the day.
Nowadays it seems like it's more accepted, specially because a lot of religious institutions feel threatened so they are now kind of forced to try and welcome those people who don't really believe but want to play pretend.
From my viewing of the Ayaan-Dawkins discussion, she didn't clearly answer whether or not she believed in the tree. The impression I got was that she doesn't, and only chooses in the sense that I choose to pretend that the characters in my favorite show are real so that I can get into the show and it makes the show more fun, but I, of course, know that they are not.
There is something refreshing about Alex's approach.
Thank you Alex for confirming why the nonsense Gospel of Thomas is not in the Bible.
They’re all nonsense though…
Man, I love Alex O'connor.
I believe Alex is a brilliant young man, and he does his research. There's no question about that. I also have Faith an hope that there is a God, I believe in sight unseen faith by choice. I would go to Alex for the truth about scripture more so than I would any Christian today because they are so biased and many don't do their research and some Christians are rather mean to you when you question the Bible. Because if you question the Bible, you might get true answers, and they're afraid of that that's my take and my experience with overzealous Christians. I've learned more about the Bible outside of reading it myself from Alex, thank you, Alex for being a scholar of the Bible. Whether you know what or not you're doing God's work as far as I'm concerned, because. when you quote scripture and tell us about what it really says, it's wonderful. I appreciate you 100%.
The respect these 2 have for another is off the charts! ❤
My favorite UA-camr plus my favorite collab guy
All I can say is that my life became infinitely better compared to where I was, once I became a Christian. Like Ayaan Hirsi Ali, it wasn't until I started praying and accepting Jesus as real - even hyper real (stealing from Jordan Peterson - still learning, I'm accepting of both takes), that everything began to improve. I'm now working, a proud father, a proud husband, and can manage the stress and moments of depression much better than I ever was able to before. I can't go back to any other form of living. It's not possible for me. This is/was the only way forward for me.
That's awesome to hear, man. I've definitely been a bit astray myself. I'm also a husband, and my daughter's going to be here in less than a week.
I do have a question. I'm worried about my ability to spiritually lead my household. I have bouts of pretty severe death anxiety, and I have a problem reconciling death and Christ. This has caused mass doubt in my faith, despite a real and tangible pull I feel towards Christ and Christianity. How have you, as a new believer, dealt with those ideas in your conversion? How has that affected your family?
@@es0teric76 Thanks.
First, I should say, I was raised Christian, fell out when I was roughly 16, then went about 20 years of my life describing myself as atheist to agnostic. But as said earlier - couldn't improve my life and couldn't find meaning. If it's all to end in heat death for instance - what's the point? If we can just step over each other without a cosmic ultimate justice - what's the point? Just those two thoughts alone would leave me bitter towards the world. You can't (at least I couldn't) keep moving in that direction.
To answer your question - it was Jordan Peterson (who I don't believe to be a Christian) who put it as if we frame our lives around stories and those stories can be the bedrock of how we see everything else in the world and how it orients how we move forward - that is the better way to build your axiomatic beliefs that you will act upon. A heroes journey if you will.
I want to be a difference for good, no matter how small. Whether it's for my wife, my child, or my friends. I want to be a beacon of strength and hope. I want to be the person that people can rely on. To turn the other cheek. To walk a path of godliness as best as I can even though I know I'm a sinner. When you fully accept the truths Jesus talks about and you invite him in to change your life - you don't suddenly become the greatest version of you. But, it's a step towards the light and it's a battle and it will challenge you. As long as you allow him to work through you, go to church, and actively learn, you will find extraordinary changes happen to you and around you.
Fear of death is normal. Find some comfort in knowing you're not alone. You're not the first person to to be afraid of dying. Second, know it's not the end provided you wholly believe in Jesus.
Finally, there is no shame in moments of weakness. What's important is you find ways/tricks/bible to rebound as quickly as possible and get into the habit of making those changes to orient yourself towards a more positive path as quickly as you can. Whatever those tools are that can help you - use them and get back on track as soon as you can. You don't need to beat yourself up.
Cheers to you - I wish you the best.
Instead the “sacred” as what draws people to religion across time, I think it’s better clarified as what provides **hope and order**. Coming from a extremely religious and also academically religious background, I have heard this insinuated and spoken explicitly countless times. People have trouble letting go of their religion (or questioning their religion at all) because it is the ultimate fallback hope to acute and general mundane suffering in life. It orders the chaos and puts a light at the end of the tunnel. That is the draw to religion more than anything else about beauty and love, although those play into the same theme.
Believed by its adherents, religion specifically secures a final hope/resolution and *enough* current order. However, it just does a poor job of inviting *everyone* to a path of spiritual transformation. Religion seems to be inherently sectarian and gated-group-forming. I would suggest precisely because it has to determine ultimate value/categorize humans in kind of a binary “are you in or are you out with God/heaven” kind of way. When that is the final stakes / dichotomy, religion will be sectarian. And an open-source spiritual path will be thought of as “secondary” or will be heavily devalued. I think today we are seeing the results of massive nominal-only Christianity and the desire for more real spiritual transformation/Aka fruits. Religion, if keeping ultimate binary stakes, cannot provide this. It will always devolve into a mechanistic belief system to secure hope.
I honesty think people prefer a sense of “guaranteed hope/order” over the real ambiguity of pursuing the spiritual path open to everyone and anyone.
Agreed. Well worded. People have tried finding solace in the logic of new atheism but like all movements, it was destined to have a deadline to its popularity. It alienated a lot of people and the pendulum is swinging back to a mean position and in some parts of the world, to the other extreme as well.
@@alinachrist8416 for sure. I think there is a spacious meeting ground for all of us. Assuming there will be a perfectly harmonious future one day can also mislead us. Peace and love are a means, not an eventual end. Aka I don’t think unity=final same thinking for everyone, but unity= an effort to collaborate despite not thinking the same. Our diversity/collaboration, once you accept it’s gonna always be that way, is actually pretty fun! :)
That is very well articulated. My husbands side of the family is very religious, and all their testimonies share those elements you mentioned; some of them are obvious and on the surface, others are less articulated but still clearly observable from someone on the outside like myself. The obvious ones are the hope of salvation (eternal life after death which makes everything that happens in life bearable) and knowledge that everything is God's will (which is order, regardless of whether one likes that order or not). The less obvious one is the in/out group dynamics.
It is more likely that the tree is evolving, producing new kinds of fruits. An apple can appear in multiple colors, textures, and flavors, but if someone asks, "What's that?", the quick answer would still be "Apple." One can adhere to a set of rules and values, striving to align with the morals Jesus represents, without necessarily believing the entire story. Speaking as a Jewish Spinozian/Nietzschean/stoic seeker, I also bet that not a single Jew was wearing a yarmulke 3000 years ago.
Except that in this particular case, Jesus actually demanded belief (faith - they are the same word in Greek).
The gospel of John could not be more explicit, it states multiple times that the purpose of the whole piece is that you believe in Jesus and Jesus says that that's what you need to do repeatedly. "That all who believe may not perish". "No one comes to the Father except through me". Etc.
@@SeanusAurelius I understand your point, and you can see similar cases in other religions. The Jews demanded Samuel unite all tribes under one kingdom and find a king, so no one came to God except through Saul.
From an unreligious perspective, this is a smart strategy. By telling people they must come to you first, you gain control over the chain that connects humanity to God. This is why Muhammad claimed to be the last true prophet, to gain power over that chain.
The Old Testament opens with Genesis, telling two different creation stories. Which one should we believe? Or perhaps it's simply a good, nonliteral story. Maybe God wanted to share values, morals, and rules to help us become better people, and the best way to do that is by mixing parts of history with good storytelling.
The point of Christianity is that you are saved by faith, the thief being crucified performed no works and followed no specific morals of Jesus. Yet Jesus says he will go to heaven.
These people and their fruit are closer to atheists or Jews than Christians.
@@yanivhadar4489 The morals Jesus taught isn't just to be "good" in this life, but to have a personal relationship with him and be with him forever in the next life though. And it's not about gaining power- many of the early Christians were persecuted and killed for being Christians. Even Jesus himself was tortured and crucified, and said his followers shouldn't be surprised if the world hates us for following him.
Except Jesus was gay and had 12 boyfriends
I believe without a doubt Jesus and his story is 100% real. I know it is. His wisdom is eternal and proves itself. I know I fail him everyday yet he allows us to exist so that we may overcome.
The fact that Alex delves so deep into the Gnostic texts is extraordinary. The more he talks about the Gnostics and their conception of the universe, and reality as a whole, the more it feels like Buddhist Cosmology: Samsara, de realm of birth and death, is to be seen as a prison. A place - and a process, at that - where you are 'locked in', 'enslaved' by your own craving and clinging, which originates fundamentally from ignorance - that is, we see existence in the wrong terms, and therefore keep running around and around, chasing our tails, going up and down, up and down, eternally, until we find a way out. The way out is to destroy that very ignorance. There is no other way. And the way to end ignorance is the Eightfold Path, which leads you to the Truth of nirvana and liberation.
We have a remarkable parallel on that aspect in the Gospel of John (which seems to be focused on liberation):
So He said to the Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, you are truly My disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
See:
'You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free'.
Well, 'What is truth?' Pilate asks him later, but gives him no time to answer.
Christians insist on repeating the words of Jesus, 'I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life'. Great. What does that mean? How do you apply that to your life, to your cognition, to how you see and interpret the world as a whole? How does THAT free you from being enslaved to sin and ignorance, because sin can only be born out of ignorance? What is a Christian supposed to DO in this world, instead of waiting passively for the Second Coming while the world turns to ash?
There is a lot to unpack here, because the more you look at it, the more it seems that immense parts of Christian Cosmology have been erased and/or hidden, as if to intentionally make things more difficult and obscure. Maybe because the Powers That Be don't WANT you to be liberated.
Agree there are some fascinating parallels between Gnostic cosmology and Hindu philosophy too. Such a Barbarello the female aspect who is something like Adi Shakti.
To me stuff like this is the biggest argument against religion being a biological bug that helps us build societies. The level of specificity and wierdness to these traditions goes far beyond ''we dreamed of a bearded guy in the clouds that tells us to be good to eachother or he will punish us''. Its so specific, wierd, and consistent across different parts of the world, it has to be real in some capacity
Harmony between order and chaos within oneself will project itself into the physical world.
Having studied some major world religions I've found there there is much wisdom to be gained when looking for peace, equinimty, joy, acceptance of reality, life's value. But religion also makes absolute claims in the form of commands, rituals, demands, roles, etc.
Can't we "tease out" the wisdom from these ancient traditions without accepting Iron Age social and truth claims?
What wisdom can you get from ancient religions that you can't with modern literature?
@@taobaoexpert123 Interesting you should say. Wisdom doesn't seem to change over time. Mythological themes of heroism, love, redemption, origins...are common themes of all great literature. The paradoxical wisdom of strength in humility, loving unconditionally, losing self, is generally found in the great religions of the world.
Problem? Good literature is hard to find.
@@taobaoexpert123all modern literature is influenced by ancient religions basically a copy so nope dog
@@nonyobussiness3440 Modern medicine is infleunced by old medicine doesn't mean we start trying blood letting again
I think a better question is why do those rituals arise if the only usefull part of the religion is its wisdom, and why do those rituals resemble eachother across all religions? can we truly be sure that all the spiritual side of all religions is false? and why is there such a strong movement that staunchly belives so if its obvious?
For the longest time i was an agnostic, not religious, but humble enough that i didnt think i could be 100% sure religion was completely unfounded. It always baffled me how staunch atheists could exist, if youre guided by reason and logic, wouldnt you just act as if religion is false, becuase you havnt seen god or anything like that, without feeling the need to scream from the rooftops that its 100% false for sure?
Atheism seems like a faith based system, like all religions, but at least religions have people who seem to honestly belive they have seen god in some vision, meanwhile atheism has no evidence for anything, yet the same conviction.
Currently reading meister Eckhart and finding it quite enjoyable and refreshing. He takes a Zen Buddhism spin on Christianity as a Christian gnostic and focuses on the birth of the Son in our soul. We are to become like Christ by surrendering to Christ. “When he entered I had to fall away.” According to Eckhart, we have to surrender ourselves so that Christ may dwell within our souls. I find this message to be both beautiful and profound yet practical. Matt. 10:34-36 summarizes his theology quite well.
Just re-reading "original blessing" by Mathew Fox. Highly recommended, meister eckhart frequently referenced
Damn that's a sweet Fall Out Boy t-shirt Chris is wearing.
As a Muslim, I was astounded by his true knowledge about Islam. This man can make a podcast on Islam too at this point.
Though I believe his beliefs are untrue, his knowledge is great. Brilliant 👏
🤮🤮🤮🤮
I don't think he has a good understanding of Islam at all aside from just a superficial level. It doesn't sound like he did any research on Islam theology and philosophy. Fiqh, Ijtihad, Tawheed, Zikhr, Jihad, Fitna, Dunya, Zakat, Waḥdat al-wujūd, etc. All of these concepts in my opinion are are FUNDAMENTAL to what ISLAM actually is. One has to study these in their depth to have a better understanding into the Islamic Psyche.
@@txrangertx2418I think he has enough knowledge about reality......which Muslim Scholars really Lack
They are discussing religions based on Thier scriptures
Reality is viewed differently by everyone
Pretty sure you don't even know any of the concepts he just mentioned@@azmainfaiak8111
Christ is King. Praying for Alex. I love his honesty
He who says "Better to go without belief forever than believe a lie!" merely shows his own preponderant private horror of becoming a dupe... This fear he slavishly obeys... For my own part, I have also a horror of being duped; but I can believe that worse things than being duped may happen to a man in this world... It is like a general informing his soliders that it is better to keep out of battle forever than to risk a single wound. Not so are victories either over enemies or over nature gained. Our errors are surely not so awfully solumn things. In a world where we are certain to incur them in spite of all our caution, a certain lightness of heart seems healthier than this excessive nervousness on their behalf.
William James,
If there were as many new Christians in the world as there are ads in this video then there truly would be great Christian revival.
😂
The context in Leviticus and Deuteronomy are vitally important to understand. It’s not as simple as “God ordains slavery.” Alex’s discussion with the Kenectle’s delves into this further and they give an adequate explanation
Christianity is beautiful. It leads to happiness, fulfillment and peace
It didn't for me.
The pendulum inevitably swings
And the masses are always amazed when they arent used to it swinging
but there is a reason for said swinging. it doesnt just occur
@@harrywatson2694 yes, cause and effect, amazing
The rise to Christ and Islamism in the west will push the minority atheist movement off the cliff
Atheism is not a pendulum, it’s an anomaly in history that has utterly failed. The people have awoken to the realization that with the removal of God from society, the downfall of society simultaneously occurs because they are inextricably linked, and more importantly it is a false belief. It now faces disintegration, for it offers society nothing but lies and ruin. The future is Theist. ❤
A Muslim watching two atheists talking about 'Christian revivalism'. Loved it.
19:24 How can Alex say "you can chose to do things that affect your beliefs" if Alex doesn't believe in free will?
@@realistic_delinquent Yeah, I guess I have heard him say something like that. Still can't understand it entirely though. Not sure if its actually worth trying to, given that if its true then trying would apparently not make a difference.
That's why he started the conversation by saying let's just assume free will exists for the purpose of this conversation.
@@GoldenMechaTiger Good catch!
Think of it like this. If you go to bed early and get adequate sleep. You’re more likely to go to work, exercise, eat well, etc.
However if you don’t get enough sleep you’re more likely to not go to work, not exercise, not eat well, etc.
There are many inputs that effect outcomes
@@travist2339 So Alex believes a person has sway over their decisions, but not enough to call it “free will”, because they’re not entirely free of influences? To me, that seems like overly complicating the use of the term “free will” in a Peterson-like manner. I would think that if even a single electron in the brain is under control of a conscious soul, then so long as it lends enough sway to alter someone’s course like a rudder steers a ship, then that would meet most people’s definition of free will.
I have to acknowledge Alex, probably gives a better account of the difference between Islam and Christianity, than most other non-muslim podcasters. His understanding of Islam is still flawed but I have to say I'm very surprised by his understanding. He has clearly tried to research the topic in a more honest way than most. He has definitely earned my respect.
What an incredible delivery guys. Incredible I say. I could have sworn I was listening to two of our best Christian apologists today! High theological IQ from you both👏🏼👏🏼
God continues to bless you both. 🙏
Rise of Christian revival is better described as a fall of enlightenment: the period and principles responsible for the greatest improvement in quality of life ever.
No, not really. This view assumes atheism is the pinnacle of enlightenment. It isn’t. Plenty of religious minds contributed to the scientific revolution that led to the enlightenment era.
@@TheMrRelic And most of our physics understanding was contributed by an Alchemist. Yes I think astrology, alchemy, and applying agency to an supernatural world behind the scenes, are all quite against enlightenment (which is just the idea of checking one's and eachother's assumptions)
I just want to point out that conversion can be a process just like deconversion. When you deconvert or deconstruct your faith you start questioning one idea at a time instead of abandoning it all in one go. While many Christian faiths celebrate the once in a lifetime, born-again experience, nothing prevents you from moving to cultural christianity and from there to actual faith. That process can take multiple generations as well, maybe you never believe, but if you raise your children as christians they might end up being true believers.
Well said
will you still go to hell?
Why would one want to go to the "actual faith" in the first place? Especially when they already have a decent life by having healthy pracises, just without the religious dogmatism?
@@three_owl_night Would you really describe the present post modern hell hole a decent life?
@grannyannie2948 I was specifically talking about people who adopted healthy practices (long term monogamous relationship, forming communities, expressing gratitude and taking responsibility vs feeling entitled and always searching to blame someone). There are plenty of those, and I wouldn't describe them as a part of the hell hole; they are too busy living their life rather than being activists
16:15 “How can you choose to believe something.” My brother in Christ that is why it’s called faith.
How can you choose to believe 2+2=78
I’m so curious about what a cultural Christian’s honest answer would be to two questions:
Firstly, how would you know when the time had come to try something else?
And secondly, if you became convinced that Christianity was actually corrosive to civil cohesion, would you stop being a Christian?
I think that these sorts of questions get at the main difference between theological and cultural Christians. And I have got to say that theological Christians come across as way more authentic - cultural Christianity seems focused entirely on the mundane world, and in that way it seems to be almost the opposite of a religion. A religion, at the end of the day, is about engaging with a part of reality that is ‘higher’ than the mundane world, and how this higher reality may have correspondingly ‘higher’ claims on you and offer correspondingly ‘higher’ benefits. Get rid of those higher things and I don’t know if you’ve really got a religion anymore - you’ve got a Noble Lie.
I think that theological Christians should be cautious about cultural Christian. It may feel like the number of Christians is increasing, but when you eat empty calories you also feel like you’re getting full.
As an Orthodox Jew you probably have a point. Our religion is a religion of action. One that requires actions in all areas of ones life. So for us cultural religiously traditional Jews aren't problematic. If they take so many actions they usually wind up doing it for reasons of faith in the end. The problem with applying it to Christianity is that even in its most orthodox denominations it tends not to make demands over large areas of ones life. So in some areas the person lives a religious life and in Others he lives a secular live. As a result he tends to be vulnerabile to secular influence even when it's wrapped up in cultural Christianity.
As someone who grew up veeeery Christian, I would have viewed a “Cultural Christian” as someone coming in to influence and manipulate. Coming in under ulterior motives.
I have always understood "cultural" Christian to refer to someone who was raised in a Christian environment and is therefore influenced by Christian culture while not being an active believer. In that sense I've never considered it a choice to be made. Any more than any other element of cultural heritage.
I'm not sure what kind of answer you'd expect for that. The people who try to convert for cultural or political reasons are doing it purely because they don't think there's any better option to achieve their ideal type of society. The media puts on a show of disparaging Christianity, and when these people look at the "good old days" they notice a lot of it involved Christianity so they think that must be why it was good. That's the extent of their logic.
Sooner or later, when they realize Christianity isn't going to help them realize their ideal society, some of them will abandon those ideals and go all-in on getting to live forever in Heaven and whatnot, and others will move on to some other ideology, probably more oriented to their goals.
@@zhugh9556 I agree with you. I am/was a Catholic who "married into" a Sunni Muslim family. None of us are hot-blooded "believers", but we do find it important to understand each others' history and culture (including why we say bad things about Protestants, and they say bad things about Shi'ites🙃).
As a Christian, I am always glad to hear from an intelligent and honorable atheist like Alex O’Conner. I greatly appreciate this channel and the quality perspectives it offers. It does seem that in trying to address wisdom to help people navigate the modern world, a spiritual dimension is often neglected, and I know that is because Chris is not particularly in that world, but I would love to see him engage more with it. More quality perspectives from all sides willing to have a constructive conversation.
I can see Paul Vanderklay being a Christian who would work well on this program.
Honorable? Are you kidding me. The way he paints God as a monster to his audience because of his fundamentalist and literalistic understanding of the OT. Did you watch the Dinesh debate and many others where he interprets Scripture literally? I don't know how many souls caved into atheism because of his fundamentalist approach on Scripture where he selectively cherry picks Scriptures and takes them out of context. Just curious why you name yourself boringbiblestudy. Maybe you too bought into his hermeneutics on Scripture.
Plus one for PVK. Would be a great convo
@@Shawn-nq7dumy friend, until 5 minutes ago, Christians also believed that. The fact that apologists have had to sanitise the bible because it no longer aligns with modern morality is really the nail in the coffin of the claim that the bible offers any real foundation for an objective morality.
And yes, I saw the dinesh debate, and just because Dinesh doesnt have an answer doesn't mean O'Connor is dishonourable. Just that his position doesn't have a great deal to offer. If that debate has lost souls, God should get better arguments
@@Shawn-nq7du
When I say honorable, I mean that he is generally charitable towards other Christians and tries to represtent their views accurately. His attacks are towards the arguments and not towards people.
What is your definition of honorable? Alex thinks God is evil because of the way he interprets the scriptures and his own value system? This makes him wrong. Can people not be honorable in representing their views while being wrong? I agree he misunderstands verses and misses context sometimes, but cherry picking would suggest he is intentionally doing so. Yes, he has likely led many people to atheism, and that sucks, but I'd rather have someone make good arguments for atheism that get people thinking carefully than sloppy, emotional, uncharitable arguments for atheism which get people caught in their emotions and a false sense of superiority over the Christian views that they never understand. Alex often explains the Christian perspective accurately before explaining why he thinks this is wrong. I'd much prefer two intelligent and charitable interlocutors debating a topic than two idiot blowhards, and I find Alex is someone who is respectful and intelligent who can challenge me without insulting me, so I find that honorable.
I chose the name Boring Bible Study because I had been studying Numbers, the book of the Bible I thought was most boring, and found that it was actually kind of interesting when I looked into it more. I wanted an outlet for all the things I had learned, so I started a UA-cam channel to post my thoughts. I thought Boring Bible Study might catch people’s attention which in your case proved true.
In retrospect, I've learned how to access much better quality commentaries since my videos on Numbers, so I do not know that the work there holds up very well, but it was a good stepping stone to what I am doing now where I am teaching at church.
@@bbainter7880
Paul Vanderklay has that focus on cultural issues, a breadth of knowledge, and heart for helping people navigate tough issues and the modern world with nuance. I think he'd do great on this channel.
I’ve been dreading watching this because I’m taking an Alex OConnor break. How can you be so sophisticated and so charitable and such a divergent thinker while also being pretty accurate about his historical knowledge. And then look over the fact that Hitler hated the Christian ethos, he locked up tons of Catholics and sent them to their deaths, especially the clergy, I don’t claim to know exactly what God Hitler prayed to, but the way he treated Christians doesn’t show that he was on their side. These atheist apologetics are exhausting 🥱.
He believed in the state. He was "Catholic", but the interests of his German blood nation came first. God wasn't the master he served.
?
@@SawyerCarlson-h6f Alex can do better, I think he will.
There are a TON of ads on this video. Please tone it down.
nothing is ever enough
These podcasts don't pay for themselves. Studios, equipment, office, fees, airfares, and there are editors, managers and families to feed. Too lazy to click forward but will take the time to complain and be a keyboard warrior. Don't watch then. Unsubscribe. Bye. I doubt Chris would care.
There are multiple missed points in the case of the captive taken in war and subsequently married. 1. Impulsive and irrational treatment of the woman is not allowed. She cannot simply be raped as often happens after battles. Time is given to restore rationality. He must not know her before the journey home, or before meeting his family, or before shaving her hair, ( at which point she is no longer a beautiful woman). Furthermore, she has time to mourn and the couple has time to get to know each other. Marriage provides her with a status as a wife and she gets to avoid starvation. If she goes free, she may go where she pleases. But I think the Hebrew culture was far superior to the surrounding cultures that she would likely be won over by the treatment mentioned above. But overall the above restrictions would make many come to their senses and not get married at all.
A leap of faith is necessary - even Pascal's wager. Blaise Pascal said that it is not possible to prove or disprove that God exists and he thought it is better to bet that God exists.
Great job, Chris, as usual. I've run into several people lately who told me that they were "christians". I would have never known if they hadn't told me first. Not sure what that means...except maybe that the bar is set pretty low.
My adult conversion to Christianity is certainly not about right wing conservatism, for what it's worth. And I know others like me that would make the same assertion. But I wouldn't disagree that those people exist. I think a lot of people are taking the path inward to understand the fruit and the tree at their own pace, regardless of the reason. As they come to understand and experience the tree and fruit, their reasons change along with their heart.
Two of my favourite people, speaking on one of my favourite subjects. ❤
God : "This last sin of despair is graver to me than all the other sins. Souls guilty of despair judge their misery greater than my mercy. (they are assuming Gods unforgiveness) The despair of Judas displeased me more and was more grave to my Son than was his betrayal of Him."
Evil spirits of despair and infirmity want to inflict souls & trick them into believing in an unforgiving God. No repentant person will be turned away from God
Dialogue of St. Catherine of Siena - catholic mystic.
Last segment of clip - as per timestamp 16:34 from UA-cam video “What the Exorcists shared: Demons Masking as gods." From the channel Armor of God: Spiritual Warfare
Let's all start saying prayers for Alex to become a Catholic. 🙏🙏🙏.Sometimes you have to hit rock bottom before you are humbled enough to be brought to your knees and realize there is a possibility that there is something outside yourself. It's early days for Ayaan,.There are so many layers to Christianity.
Basically you have to be desperate enough to believe all that nonsense.
lets not and say we did.
@@SawyerCarlson-h6f lol you must have gone to Caholic School.
@@Tara-zq3il lol nope. Public school.
“Like every human attempt to approximate the aura of god will necessarily be beholden to our failures as immoral creatures” what a line.
Alex isn’t a Christian mostly because his view of the good life is little to no suffering, and Christianity actually calls you to suffer. In fact God himself suffers, particularly through Jesus Christ. In the end that’s the issue. All the other arguments are a distraction from that fact. If Alex would see that the good life is not free or as little suffering as possible, he’d see.
Did you derive this from arguments he presented in this video?
Cool story. Did Alex say that, or are you just so arrogant as to presume you know his mind better than he does?
Lul, the good old ''they choose to be atheist to live an easier life''
Nah, spirituality is effortless... on the other hand, education and science require actual hard work
Oh dear, the "If [atheist] would....he'd see" nonsense yet again.
@milansvancara Christianity isn't effortless. It's hard to discipline the mind and body from sin most people can't even stop touching themselves
Consumer Culture: Modern secular societies often replace religious fulfillment with consumer goods, attempting to fill the void left by the decline of traditional religious values.
Also, mass sport has replaced worshipping the Word with a ball.
What? That has nothing to do with secularism, the United States is extremely consumerist and has been religious to a fault for most of its history
Correlation does not mean causation...
Just because consumerism went up at the same time as secularism doesn't mean that one is causing the other. And who exactly would be doing this? What atheist has enough power in the U.S. (which is more consumerist than the other less religious western countries) to decide that we will now replace religion with consumerism.
Please think about things like this a bit longer before so confidently stating a hypothesis that you won't be able to prove.
Conversely, many religious people are specifically the consumers who keep buying items of "religious significance"
Except the most religious of the wealthy western societies is also the most consumerist, vapid and shallow. I'm sure you can guess who it is.
I really like the development of Alex.