Christian revival: Fantasy or reality? - UnHerd LIVE
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- Опубліковано 2 чер 2024
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With recent examples of high-profile atheists publicly converting to religious faith, or aligning with ‘cultural Christianity’, it seems the tide might be turning against secularism in Britain and America. But do stars of the rationalist movement finding faith mark a greater social shift? Joining UnHerd to discuss this very question are presenter of ‘The Surprising Rebirth Of Belief In God’ podcast Justin Brierley, host of ‘The Sacred’ Elizabeth Oldfield and Alex O’Connor, otherwise known as the ‘Cosmic Skeptic’.
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‘A hole shaped god’ is such an underrated put down
Asking the question "is there any atheist anywhere who does not bone kids" is the same as asking "Can men menstruate and give birth"
In both cases the answer is no.
Christian here. What Alex O'Conner says about political Christianity as a reaction to what the 1st world experience in immigration etc. is absolutely true. Christians should not blindly rejoice in this "turn". If it is a purely secular reaction to raise the flag of "Christian Culture" opposed to radical change, it could have terrible ramifications if it is only populist reaction to change.
Christianty has a political element. The bible uses example of Kings amd Judges and what happens when they ae good or bad. When they beleve in god or when they dont. The bible says he split all pepole into nations. Those nations that follow his good teachings will prosper. It is not just about the indivdual. Also lots of countrys have a national religion and the religion reinforces morals and values in law. Islam explicty says Law, Religion and Nation are one. Christianity has room for the leaders to be pagans but expects christians to become kings, Judges and Priests in turn and rule the nation. Modern pepole have forgotton this about christianity and think not having lots of christian rulers is normal. We are not the USA with its hard seperation of church and state.
I agree wholeheartedly with your point. I think it’s a real concern if people are blindly endorsing a sort of cultural Christianity that is pro right and populist in character. It could take us I’m a similar direction to the States and many European countries.
Weaponizing Christianity against Islam is probably the smart thing to do.
Agree.
Sage words for sure. The ploy of the devil is not not just to lie but to deceive even if he has to push you so far into YOUR understanding of what is True that you swing past the plumbline of truth (Jesus Christ) and into the opposite side of the same old coin that represents deception in all of its forms. Our eyes must not be on the coin but on the treasure of knowing and following Christ
THIS is what I love about UA-cam, to be able to "sit in" on conversations like this.
It’s almost enough to help me forgive its nasty biases…
What a time to be alive!
@@samgravell3180and watch christians make “fools “of themselves (even more so with muslims,now that is twisted)
Blu dress gal definitely needs some sociological help,she is wacko
Which is more likely-the foolish muslin “allah or the cowardly christian goD-
Christian here. Alex is listening and trying to be fair. Not easy. It's appreciated.
Agree. Not usually a fan of Alex. But in this setting he's a lot more open. I can only hope he's just not being appeasing but will in the future be as open in discussions. His theology as is his interpretation of scripture is diabolical.
He believes himself to be superior.
@@citytrees1752 Disgraceful comment. How exactly would you know that ?
@citytrees1752 Most people do. Christians tell me all the time that they are the only ones who will not be tortured for eternity.
@@citytrees1752 This is a trait of pdfi file atheist religion, atheists are the best of people. Islame says the same about muslims btw. And the two religions are more or less the same on any doctrine you can come up with too.
Alex is correct - the revival is mostly political.
Western religions are terrific tools for control so it makes sense people are using them politically
@Solidio821 I am seeing more of a spiritual awakening to Allah if I'm honest
@@boberKurwa23 The mass spiritual awakening to Jesus is real. I was an atheist for 20 years and like dozens of my atheist friends lately, we have been touched by the hand of God. The people finally want the spiritual truth, not the empty and false belief system of atheism that you espouse. Not the religion that says you are worm food and there is absolutely no objective meaning to you and everything you do in your life - this is obviously a false belief and even a small child knows that. This is why millions are leaving neo-atheism today and flocking to Christ. You’ll laugh, mock, and use the same recycled lines over and over, and you have no power anymore because the people have awakened. You cannot comprehend what Christians have because you have not been touched by the hand of God.
@@JaniceThompson228 you definitely don't seem like a christian, all the christians I know are less smug, kind and open to other opinions. All you seem to care about is how you are more right than all other people with different opinions, very sad to see.
Eh. Idk about that. I think in general materialism and nihilism has run its natural course.
I'm a Christian, but Alex O'Connor is such a brilliant speaker/thinker. I love him.
I deeply respect his sincerity.
@@Jerome616 I don't. He's a fenian +++t
I think he's way overrated. His inability to see how Christianity shaped western civilization is embarrassingly bad.
@@NuanceOverDogma ok, scholar, publish a paper to criticise his views then, we are waiting to read it after it's peer reviewed
I find him a bit of a grifter and a young boy who has always been complimented about his verbal skills, but never had any real, life destroying, adversity to face. I'm a Christian also and pray that O'Connor would find Christ Jesus and be saved.
Situation A: a person is receiving comfort directly from the Holy Spirit.
Situation B: a person has convinced themselves that they are receiving comfort from the Holy Spirit, but they actually aren’t.
How could we tell these two situation apart?
There are ways, but all of them are as subjective as the prompt. The Bible says, “You shall know them by their fruits”. That’s just about the only objective way to see if someone is actually a Christian.
@@Jerome616 So if someone says the Holy Spirit told me to do X, if they’re generally a good person who is Christian, you just believe them no matter what?
Doesn’t seem like a good method.
Take care, friend 👋
@@oftenincorrecthe did not say generally good- you did. Obviously you can’t tell amongst the generally good. The only objective marker is self sacrifice in a manner that conflicts with natural human instincts in a person who is otherwise sane and functional. Most Humans have instincts towards following social norms, self sacrificing for children and kin, gaining social approval, preserving their own life etc. so if someone is self sacrificing in a manner that opposes those instincts and self interests in a situation where there is nothing for them to gain- that is an objective marker that they are being guided by something beyond themselves.
@@oftenincorrect it depends on if what they did was consistent with what is doctrine. I would never say I assume they have it, but that’s life right? We usually don’t have absolute certainty about many things. We look at the evidence and act in accordance with what we have to work with.
@@SL-es5kb "for no greater love is their than this, to give up ones life for a friend."
"...but I tell you, Love your enemies!"
Yes, we are called to more then just self interested good acts. If you see that kind of radical love, it truly speaks to the hearts of those around that person.
This so called God has never revealed himself, if he does exist he doesn't care about the destruction of both the planet or human life and yet he wants to be acknowledged, worshipped and praised whilst being helpless in the face of evil and suffering...what a very strange God indeed....
Are you blind? No evidence???
@@marklacy8789 yes that's right, no compelling evidence for God ...
@@Starchaser63Is that conclusion for you or for all?
@@marklacy8789 I personally would say there's no evidence, to the extent that it excludes other religions and worldviews.
If you have a low epistemic bar or generally low standards for what constitutes evidence, then there's plenty of evidence. If you try to justify Christian belief ad-hoc, everything becomes evidence for God.
@@tomgreene1843 It is for anyone who applies the same standard across the board.
The girl in the blue is the type of person that helps me stay atheist .
"Helps me stay"...
🤔
@@festivetosho7376 yes, stay .
@@shak535 It sounds like you're looking for affirmation that staying atheist is the right thing. This feels like a position I was in (occasionally am in).
No he isn't looking for affirmaation to chritsian on the contray the arguments by chritsian is helping hkm stay atheist @@festivetosho7376
Yes. Affirming Christianity because you need to be part of something bigger than you and feel loved is not any bible reason to be Christian. She doesn’t seem to know that being a Christian means giving your whole life to the cause of Christ. Money, time, effort, beliefs. And I don’t see any of these new belief people doing that.
Science has proven God wants us all to be atheist .
That is a very true statement. God worked really hard to make sure almost nothing in the natural world lines up with what's in his holy book. Kind of crazy for the omnipotent perfect being that is said to love us and make sacrifice for us. How much more twisted can it get?
@@inajosmood Read the Quran.
@@anaskun3645 I did read it partly, just as bad
@@inajosmood read it fully, and i’m really curious what you would say is bad about it
Every single time that lady talks she sounds like she's about to cry
because she is
she's just so passionate
I think she was stressed
That's true 😂😂😂
I find it annoying really, I mean there's absolutely a time for doing that, but when you're in a discourse like this one, being too emotional actually makes the other people less likely to open up as they might say something that makes the person even more emotional.
I am not trying to troll anyone, but, the Tom Holland thesis, in addition to the problems Alex pointed out, is simply narrow and culturally chauvinistic .No Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, indigenous shaman, Daoist, or any of the many varieties of Hindus, Greek pagans had any notion of the good. I have a deep respect for the good Christians have brought and bring into the world, but, it is not wholly unique.
But Christianity IS the primary worldview which shaped the West. Not Judaism, Buddhism etc. No one is disputing moral standard in those belief systems. Its about which belief system shaped our past and past culture.
@majose7787 but this must not be accepted. We must uphold pluralism in order to keep Christianity away from our lives. To be free to do whatever we want.
Is there an argument here or you just don't like Christianity being right?
Actually, this kind of proves my point. Reread the post more carefully and consider what it would mean for a tradition to be “right”. Right about what exactly.
'Right' as in it is the best way to live.
Empirically proven that Christianity has the most potential to improve lives of ordinary people. Christian countries (especially if the Protestant persuasion) have better economies, better morals.
Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus and atheists are moving to Christian countries. Christians aren't moving the other way.
I’ve been a church going, homeschooling, homemaker over the last 15 years. And I definitely notice a difference in the way people respond to me. They are much more positive and open minded. I used to get eyeballs people would instantly lose interest in talking to me, and there was even the occasional mocking or critical questions. Now I find people cheering me on, or asking me questions in an open-minded way. Where I used to be called unemployed. Now I’ve been giving the title of Trad-wife. Definitely an upgrade lol
Keeping your children away from public education indoctrination with lgbtqwertyP (p stands for pdfilia) seems very sensible to me.
Forest meet tree. Sounds like a political movement. Honestly very similar to the trans stuff with young girls. Tying yourself to a movement gets you dragged behind the wagon.
Amazing what surrounding yourself with those that blindly agree with absolutely everything you think instead of having to deal with any of that pesky legitimate criticism, contradictory evidence or facing your own moral hypocrisy, amiright?
"I don't have a problem with ignorance. We are all ignorant about a variety of subjects we are not currently aware of. The real problem is when that ignorance is wilful, intentional and used as a weapon against anyone who disagrees with you, or anyone who has the nerve to present facts you don't want to accept."
- anyone who actually cares about verifiable reality
"I'd rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned”
- Richard Feynman
“The greatest threat to freedom is the absence of criticism.”
- Wole Soyinka
You could easily make these chats 3hours or thereabouts. You do a wonderful job of them and there's a real appetite for it now. People are ready, willing and able to listen to what others have to say about these kinds of complex and fascinating topics.
Thank you Freddie and the Unherd team. You are doing really wonderful work, especially of late, I think.
I've always appreciated Alex's ability to listen intently to Christians and withhold judgement. I really hope he keeps reading into our tradition.
He is a theology graduate.. from Oxbridge no less, has wrestled with belief himself many times - he knows and has studied it more than 99% of professed believers. He’s incredibly interested in theology, why religion manifests, perhaps why it’s a biological urge also.. he just doesn’t believe it’s claims, after all those many layers of searching for evidence, faith and deduction. Makes him a formidable debater on the topic.
He is not withholding judgement. He is very, very judgemental and considers himself a superior intellect.
@@citytrees1752I’ve seen you comment this twice. Maybe one would be more inclined to Christianity if Christian’s behaved as Jesus suggested.
@@Alex-mj5dvThat's pretty bold to claim that any 20 something year old young man who has dedicated their entire adult life to promoting atheist arguments "knows" Christianity better than 99% of those who believe Jesus to be Lord. He's very intelligent, but I have little doubt he could use that intelligence to work through his own objections himself.
@@harlowcj he was a Christian not so long ago. Possibly what we’d call a ‘cultural Christian’ as stated here, but I think he’s alluded to in his teen years he did believe some parts of the suspension of disbelief.
He obviously lost his faith as he aged and enquired more. I think he wrestles with it still. But he knows his theology, very well. Check out his videos specifically on such.. and, yes, he’s young but he’s done more rigour on this than most - and it’s personal rigour, nothing more. Belief is belief, it’s wholly personal.
He is finally interviewing Jordan Peterson so let’s see if he can get any direct sense on the matter from JP, who obfuscates more than usual when it comes to religion, and belief in the divine/otherworldly specifically.
Hitch said he was once asked by a Christian ‘do you ever question your atheism?’ And he replied, ‘yes, of course, daily.. and I am happy to do so. Do you question your Christian beliefs also?’ Atheism is merely a lack of belief in something claimed, as informed by the evidence available in what we can empirically observe. That’s it. It’s not character defining, I am also an atheist but don’t introduce myself as one, the same way I don’t shake hands for the first time and say ‘Hi, I’m Alex and I’m straight, and I don’t believe in the tooth fairy or Santa, Zeus and Thor’. It’s just a non sequitur in that regard.
I can see how many western atheists can become more receptive to Christianity. But it's much harder for an Ex-Muslim. (I am an ex-Muslim btw.)
All I'm hearing is that people want community. You can have that with out religion.
Exactly. The point about technology and social media leading to feelings of isolation was only briefly discussed. I think it was on the moderator to pull on that thread more and ask a follow-up question: "Is a Christian revival the best solution to satisfy the desire for community that many are craving." I certainly don't think it is in its current form.
Proud Macedonian-British Christian Orthodox . Loving Unheard. ✝️
piperki, chevapi, pleskavici, graf, sarmi, kjoftina i burek
Macedonian?
@athanasiostsagkadouras383 hey man. Yes, I'm Macedonian. What are you?
@@vasilymartin4051 You're not though. Slavs have nothin to do with Macedonia.
@@cartesian_doubt6230 stop being boring and piss off. I know what your arguments and they're retarded
G. K. Chesterton - "On five occasions in history the Church has gone to the dogs, but on each occasion, it was the dogs that died." Maybe we are looking at the 6th dog not looking well?
That's a good one! Chester always comes up with such brilliance.
Haha GKC is a ledge.
😂😂😂
Eff them. End all tyrannies and lies. The "elite" are not elite. Your bible is not the word of God. End the bs.
Nice
This is the NPR-ification, goal shifting of the Christian faith to meet the modern moment sparked by the death of radio and 15 min regurgitated sermons and rise of 2hr podcasts and compassionate acceptance of all walks of life. Here we see the religion evolving to survive in its natural habitat. The same as it has done, and the same as it will ever do.
I think many people without exposure to the bible don’t realize it is story after story of people who struggle with doubt, conflict, disbelief, war, sexuality, violence, sin, meaning of life, loss, political strife, and death. Most people in the bible spend much of their time struggling in between various stages of their journey.
That is because the Christians that are supposed to tell these story's are arrogant "I know best" people...look here in the comments and one can see that clearly!
And yet so many religious people are narcissistic...
But most of them ultimately make the decision in favor of God which is kind of the whole point.
It is good to think about the Bible this way, probably the best way. But the sad reality is that it's a contradictory mess cobbled together by flesh and blood humans in the third century and it now means whatever the priests want it to mean. Also the struggle to believe is a thread that runs through all abrahamic religions. You can be a struggler, a fanatic or an apostate. That's it.
@@sebastianb.1926 I think you'd find that that if you searched a little harder you'd find that the last thing the Bible is, is a "contradictory mess cobbled together by flesh and blood humans in the third century". True "the struggle to believe is a thread that runs through all Abrahamic religions" but I believe that "trust" would be more accurate than believe.
I think I was moving in the direction Alex describes in the 'inappropriate questions' section, now I have to wonder what that means about me for a little bit. Excellent video, really enjoyable.
Alex is doing a great job at playing the Christian’s game. No christian will just sit there quietly if you come off as an attacker to their faith. This is the only reason he seems like “a forgiving atheist”.
I think this is a figment of your imagination. You aren't a mind reader, you don't know that Alex is "playing a game" you just wish it was true. This is conspiracy theorist type thinking.
@@ShmoeBoe Brother, you ain’t been around evangelicals long enough to understand my point. Notice how the conversation seemed to veer to the side of the theists? They’ll have it no other way
One hugely important takeaway for me is that morality is far more important than metaphysics. Heaven on earth, not heaven up there. Heaven for everyone, not heaven for just us.
This chat really needs a Christian (born/bred/intellectually inclined) that is no longer a Christian. The cultural swing back towards appreciation for Christian ideals (which is great) needs a nuanced insider look at Christianity’s many landmines/ issues of limiting free thinking and dogmatism that block others out more than provide an open source spiritual pilgrimage /space for humanity explore and grow in.
"Limiting free thinking"? Provide your basis of that claim. The whole concept of freedom to think stems from the Christian worldview
@@matheussalim5652 yes there are certain ideals that can support free thinking within scripture/Christian belief. My experience is (and I’ve heard many others as well) that most Christian community members do not feel necessarily “free” to consider other beliefs and openly share their exploration. It is taboo (unless in some intellectual forum such as this) to regularly express one’s exploration of other ideas that would counter Christian beliefs/propositions about the main doctrines. I do see a limited space provided to express an initial level of “doubt,” but the assumption seems to one will return from that “confusion”, per se, back to “belief.” Overt and consistent uncertainty in the main Christian doctrines/openness to other ideas maintained as a landing place is not really normalized or “allowed” (“allowed” not used literally but in the context of more subconscious group-think) in most Christian communities. I notice a lot of push back when one desires to glean only spiritual lessons & wisdom from Christianity sans the doctrines. If you come from a particularly open setting that does allow for this, my commentary might not make sense to you. But the majority of Christian settings foster a sense of keeping this to yourself, at least if you’re exploring the big ticket items as not being true anymore (Jesus’ role as savior, resurrection, belief in God).
@@matheussalim5652I'm curious. What is the basis for YOUR claim?
@@matheussalim5652So people didn’t have any freedom to think before/without Christianity?
@@matheussalim5652 "The whole concept of freedom to think stems from the Christian worldview". Actually, if we accept that western civilization is based in some way on christian values, then it is christianity by the way of 10 commandments that introduces the whole concept of NOT being free to think - 10th commandment is one of the earliest (if not actually the earliest) examples of law against a thought crime, telling someone they're guilty if they just think the wrong thing.
I'm Christian. I respected Alex so much more here than the lady who was spouting "coffee shop Christianity". There is a saying "Biblical Christianity is not popular, and popular Christianity is not biblical." There is a lot of truth in that.
Could you elaborate on what you mean by "coffee shop Christianity" and your thoughts on this woman? I'm interested.
I just thought she was speaking more on an emotional, personal level. I think that approach is just really inappropriate for conversations like these.
I mean tbh, I would be the same way in a debate like this, because I have a really personal reason for my atheist beliefs. But all that does is win over sympathy from people who agree with you, and alienate people who don't.
IMO
@@YAMMAS Yeah I don't think Alex's inner autism appreciated her antiques very much.
@@raemir I think what the commenter meant by coffee shop christianity is when you “choose to believe” as they talked about in the video or when you see the teachings of the religion you adhere to as something less valuable than the form of belief you find yourself in. This is unbiblical as you can see in First Corintians 15:14 “And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith.” As you can see bible is not supportive of choosing to believe but demands a faith grounded in truth of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. I think it is a more general wide problem that many peoples’ arguments and reasons for their belief in a religion doesn’t always match the reasons presented within their religion.
@@ismailtaskran9740 Ah I hear you brother, what are your thoughts on this? Are you Christian yourself?
All I hear from the believers is:
If we believe we’re all part of God’s plan, that we’re special and life has meaning, then we don’t feel meaningless, unimportant and unremarkable in the universe.
If you open yourself to believe in miracles, you will believe in miracles.
If you believe that people can die and resurrect, you’ll believe Jesus did rise from death.
Have we forgotten what circular reasoning is?
The penultimate person in the audience started to believe in Christianity again because of “the lies about masks, vaccines and climate change”.
Ok…
Phenomenal and very moving conversation. Thank you to all the speakers in this dialogue!
Thank you.
Very inspiring conversation.
🙏🙏🙏
I decided against writing this comment at least three times, but it kept getting worse: the blue lady cannot handle her alcohol! From the giggling to tapping her glass with her ring multiple times to spitting saliva... just Blech
57:11 What?! Justin says that all Gnostics come a couple of centuries after the first Gospels? Wow. This is totally false. Gnostic Christian sects started before even the first Gospels were written. Paul was aware of the Gnostics, and his letters predate the Gospels.
Thank You all for finally talking some sense in the public sector
The part that most confounds me is why people need to choose one particular team in their search for understanding and meaning. That seems to me to be the great problem. The creative force of existence likely wouldn't be so interested in a my way or the highway sort of relationship because everything is it and it is everything.
Even as a practicing Christian, this is the correct answer. People like Thomas Merton and G.K. Chesterton are where I find I fit in the most - not the clearly self-interested ethnonationalist Christianity that is being peddled by many on the new Right.
Alex is literally the best. It's dumb but I kinda want to just look into the future and see what he ends up believing and pick that
What a great conversation! Thank you all!
Quite a bit of evidence for the resurrection 😂….. we do not have the testimony of a single person
the Bible has multiple accounts of the resurrection
@@billwalton4571yes but not a single person ever documented their viewing of the “ risen Christ “ . There is no book / letter written by anyone who identifies themself and says I saw him
Jesus appeared to them as the wholly ghost. These are the people gave us the blueprints to life. It is so saliently evident now that when we deviate from these instructions (as the abominable baby boomer generation did), we get a social catastrophe. And as individuals we need to go for deliverance, to remove any generation curse.
@@billwalton4571 fairies don't exist, neither do aliens or satan. Only in your mind. 😂
@@stephnewman1357 Fairies would only be real if they were Gods creation, in which case we would be able to take physical measurements.
Freddie, why must you always finish on time? 🙃
haha
He’s the most likable atheist I’ve ever seen.
I would be willing to bet that in 20ys he won't be an atheist anymore.
@@jackiedelvalleagreed. Once he’s had more life experience.
@@jackiedelvalle you act like you are in a cult? Can't you think for yourselves?
@@jackiedelvalle
Leviticus 24:44-46
“‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
@@jackiedelvalle I'll take that bet /remind me in 20ys
I was born into a Catholic family and raised under the faith. In my early 20s I switched to non-denominational Christian faith. I walked away from it about in my mid 40s and the last 10 years have been the happiest of my life. Christianity and the Bible make complete sense to me now - and while the social aspects of it are missed at times, I feel like it's time we all grew up as a species and evolved to be better.
I like Alex more and more as I observe his very patient and impartial demeanour.
A good discussion, Alex was good, as usual. But a heck of a lot of terms that in fact have very distinct and clear meanings were being conflated by panel and audience alike (Alex withstanding). Secular, humanist, woke and liberal. Early on in the Four Horseman discussion at Hitch’s apartment (how long ago does that seem now?! And was it the first long form UA-cam video of its kind? Maybe), they made clear definitions of terms and distinctions as they went along, even when each of them were not diametrically opposed in views, they had each their nuances. I remember the numinous, transcendent and paranormal being a key one (celestial as Hitch would have said).
I know this was really just a lively, vivacious dinner table chat over a glass of wine, but Liz and Justin particularly got away with a lot here. I would like more rigour for the next one, and I think Alex would too, from Freddie, as moderator, though each did their best given the circumstances and tone of the ‘debate’.
Good points and, yes, the four horseman vid seems an era ago, a time when I'd also watch the early potholer and thunderfoot vids.
It's quite fascinating that I came across this so randomly after just two hours from having a conversation with a friend about the same observation. TOTAL Synchronicity
Not if your mobile phone was on nearby, during your conversation!
@@Being_Bohemian haha, my point was that I have also observed this trend of spiritual awaking and more youngsters talking about christ, rather than the fact that I came across the video.
God at work 😉
Zeitgeist
Divine Providence
Such a lovely conversation. Enjoyed every contribution. Alex never disappoints, Elizabeth was passionate and eloquent, Justin was excellent and lovely, the moderator was great, questions were exciting. Lovely.
I spoke to a clergyman recently who said he is quite surprised to see significant numbers of, especially men, in their 20s and 30s coming into church to talk about God, faith etc. Something is changing. I think all 3 panellists are correct in one way or another. Friends of mine (I'm in the above category) are also asking questions.
The measure of a Christian is not how well they love their neighbour or how moral they are but how well they know God and who and what He is and so apply what they know to themselves. Our salvation is not how well we do but how well God has done.
But 'salvation' is a contrived fantasy.
And that is why this ghastly religion will die.
As an unsure atheist I can tell you that with cool headed discussions like these there is massive potential for the christians to get people more interested.
Already now I think there are many "agnostic" people who favour christianity.
She literally called new atheisism "nonsense "
@@magicker8052which is precisely what it was. It desperately lacked in scholarly depth. Wasn’t serious or profound, extremely reductionist lacking in nuance and intellectual humility. Was pretty embarrassing for atheism tbh. Bunch of opportunistic crusaders. Hardly the best in class when it comes to a critique of religion.
@@Thomo707 For many it was important and significant and if you wish to have an adult conversation about religion you cant go calling it "nonsense". For many people held hostage by religion it allowed them to see that was another way. That the stories fed to them as children were only that and that there was life after religion. The vast majority of religion fed to child is just what you describe "desperately lacked in scholarly depth. Wasn’t serious or profound, extremely reductionist lacking in nuance and intellectual humility" So ANYTHING that helps them escape this is useful.
43:24 Alex: “Hold my beer…” 😂
2:18 The broadest phenomenon in the USA and the UK, is that the number of Christian people and frameworks are decreasing
I'm with Alex here in the sense that I'd love to believe in a personal God who loves us all but I am just 'not able to choose to believe' in anything supernatural with no evidence, because my reasoning faculties will not allow me blind faith. Why would God give us the faculty of reasoning and then expect us to suspend our disbelief in order to believe in the impossible?
That is very simplistic. A mother who sees her first new born feels love for the child, so this relationship between mother and child is a reflection of the Divine reality of our existence.
The mother never stops to think if her love for her newborn child is reasonable.
@@outoforbit00yeah but in your analogy the experience comes first. But can you will an experience?
Numerous people have "reasoned" themselves INTO faith in Christ. They've found the historical testimony, evidence for the Resurrection, order, harmony and beauty in the Universe, universal objective morality and other reasons to be so compelling that they put their trust in God. So your idea that God asks us to suspend rationality to believe in Him is quite frankly, nonsense. Faith is belief based on evidence, not faith without it.
@@vanc4297 Reason is good but we need some belief about facts that is beyond measurement. This opens and broadens our sensorium, to I would hope, the ultimate good. A mother loving her child learns what she is made of. We get to know ourselves through the other. And sure the mother will have many experiences along the way that will challenge notions she might have about her own capabilities. There isn't a point, where one could say they have everything sown up and have arrived.
@@outoforbit00 I honestly don’t see how you are responding to my response. In your analogy the first thing that happens is the “mother feels the love.” In your analogy experience comes first,
whatever choice - atheist or religious, I always hope it's the European discreet version, and not the American boastful and militant one.
enjoyed the civil discussion! we need more of this!
Maybe it's just me but Ms. Oldfield sounds rather preachy and her whole argument is to sacrifice your rationality and try it
So nice to see a conversation of such depth.
Didn't feel like it got anywhere deep tbh.
Elizabeth Oldfield is talking about being a dimensional, whole, human. Very important. The West has become overly fixated on the scientific and rational, as if that’s all there is.
Coundnt agree more
When you find the other stuff, let us all know. Look forward to your thesis
What does 'overly fixated on the scientific and rational' even mean? I don't see any evidence that we have overly fixated on those at all, quite the contrary. Science is a method for studying, predicting, and explaining reality. Religion is an older attempt to do just that, and one that has, for the most part, been surpassed by better quality knowledge.
@@jackistooloud Science observes the material, necessarily. But what about the immaterial? For example, a person who falls in love wouldn’t attempt to describe the person they love by gushing about the sequence of their cell DNA, etc. They love the whole person, the EXPERIENCE of the person. And those things cannot be put under a microscope. That’s just one example.
@@heidirachel3411 I don't think that's a great example. The 'immaterial' is just another way of saying something for which we don't yet have a good explanation. There is a big jump from 'some things cannot be put under a microscope' to 'some things can only be explained by a deity'. Humans have a long history of attributing things we don't understand to divine forces, only to revise once we had better data. And the fact is science has taught us a lot about what happens when people fall in love, and even provides a good model of what we still don't know about the brain and conscious experience. That doesn't mean the universe is without mystery and wonder, but to me religion is an uninteresting and outdated layer to that discussion. Science can indeed be profound and mysterious and thrilling and meaningful. Religion is largely a dogged nostalgia for a particular set of old ideas, and I don't think that uncritical approach to knowledge is helpful.
Spirituality is a complex topic. It can invoke the awe and wonder of existence. It may be conjured by deep appreciation for the arts. It can be tied to intuitions that cannot be readily articulated. It may even result from an innate instinctual drive that fosters human trust and collaboration.
That said, religion generally (and Christianity specifically) is a much narrower form of spirituality. So yes, as Iain McGilchrist discusses, science is overrated and is not the only thing in life with value. There is much we perceive and intuit that is ineffable and cannot be reduced to scientific principles. But the fact that the human experience of consciousness, as subjectively experienced, cannot be reduced to science does not necessarily imply that there are supernatural phenomena. It certainly doesn't mean there is an omnipotent and omniscient god or gods. That human science is limited doesn't suggest we should throw up our hands and abandon all attempts at rationality.
Freddie, you really need not apologize for referring to a "retreat of rationality." That is exactly what a religious revival implies, whatever its motives. You have a group of very intelligent people tying themselves into pretzels trying to justify all manner of nonsense.
I think Justin Brierley said the quiet part out loud around 36:03. He speaks of reversing the order of things by persuading people that life would be wonderful and worth living if only Jesus Christ were real. Once you've got people wishing it were real, they'll do the hard work of talking themselves into believing it.
Justin also then speaks of someone who had a dream of John the Baptist and then went into church to get baptized. I would say that's a reflection of the incredibly low participation rates in organized religion. There have always been nutters who had religious experiences and preoccupations. The difference was that in the past they were already inculcated with Christian beliefs from birth. These days, they often have to discover the church on their own where they are eagerly welcomed into the fold.
Quite a concession by Christianity to say they can't prove anything, and then turn around and blame the scientific method for not being good enough. I guess they understand that having the burden of proof is a losing battle in this occasion; I'm just not sure they have the right to reject it.
Elizabeth Oldfield is great! First time hearing of her but she was ace to listen to.
I couldn't stand her.
"New atheist nonsense." who the hell does she think she is?
She’s all idealism and feel-ism. I strongly feel things so they must be true.
I left Christianity 47 years ago and have been an atheist ever since. The life of atheism and secular humanism is rich and meaningful. Belief without evidence will destroy humanity.
But it can’t be lived without cognitive dissonance.
@@samdg1234
Yes, it can. Even mystical experiences can be atheistic (like it is in Buddhism for example)
@@samdg1234 Please provide an example
@@johndroycroft
People just can’t live as if morality were merely subjective and the only way it can be elevated to the objective (which everyone that objects to any behavior being objectively wrong) is for God to exist.
Take a fairly famous quote from Dawkins,
In a universe of blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference."
Despite him stating there is no good and no evil, he lives as if lots of things aren’t good. And we all do the same.
The concept of "evidence" belongs in the scientific paradigm. Science is concerned with understanding the behaviour of nature.
Religion is not concerned with that. Religion is concerned with the essential nature of reality. There is no "evidence" for or against god, you know the nature of reality directly, experientially. Divinity is something you either acknowledge, or you don't.
//
Religions do get lost in moralising and dogma, and that's good to reject but the issue of god's existence is separate from those problems religions have.
23:00 basically talking about the difference between the thinking and feeling function in MBTI (psychological types) ie. Elizabeth seems to come from a feeling function perspective which based in the Eros principle finds relationships one of the primary things to consider. Understanding we are not all coming from the same functional perspective might be useful...which alex alludes to with the difference between dawkins&hersi
I feel like they are not at the same level as Alex, their arguments become so weak next to alexe's arguments
Here's a ChatGPT summary:
- The discussion took place in a fully sold-out room at the Unheard Club, focusing on the possibility of a Christian revival.
- The speaker noted a shift in the political and cultural conversation over the past five years, with a more visible Christian component.
- Intellectual and opinion-former Christians like Matthew Crawford, Paul King's North, Ian Ciali, Nick Cave, and Russell Brand have had notable conversions.
- Justin Briarly, author of "The Surprising Rebirth of Belief in God," observed a shift in the atmosphere and noted a decline in new atheism's influence.
- Despite statistics showing a decline in church attendance and religiosity, Briarly feels there is a turning of the tide towards spirituality, especially among young people.
- Liz Oldfield noted a significant shift in the spiritual landscape, with more social permission to explore spirituality and metaphysical yearnings.
- Oldfield highlighted the rise in psychedelics and climate anxiety as factors driving spiritual openness.
- Alex O'Connor, an atheist, argued that the struggle for meaning is not new and suggested that technological advancements like the iPhone have contributed to modern nihilism.
- O'Connor also noted that figures like Douglas Murray and Tom Holland, who are sympathetic to Christianity, do not explicitly believe in God.
- The panel discussed the potential for a Christian revival, with varying views on whether it would be a political or spiritual revival.
- The discussion touched on the role of Christianity in addressing modern existential crises and the need for collective moral formation.
- The panelists debated the evidence for the resurrection of Jesus, with Justin Briarly suggesting that suspending materialist assumptions could make the resurrection more plausible.
- The conversation also explored the impact of Christianity on modern values like social justice and the abolition of slavery, with differing views on its historical role.
- The panelists agreed that Christianity should not be co-opted for political agendas and emphasized the importance of genuine spiritual transformation.
- Main message: The discussion highlighted a perceived shift towards spiritual openness and the potential for a Christian revival, driven by both cultural and existential factors, but emphasized the need for genuine spiritual transformation rather than political co-option.
What was your prompt?
@@RNCM_Philosophy on github, user mbrochh, repo py-erudite is the tool I built to make these. The prompt is:
Create a bullet point summary of the text that will follow after the heading `TEXT:`.
Do not just list the general topic, but the actual facts that were shared.
For example, if a speaker claims that "a dosage of X increases Y", do not
just write "the speaker disusses the effects of X", instead write "a dosage
of X increases Y".
Use '- ' for bullet points:
After you have made all bullet points, add one last bullet point that
summarizes the main message of the content, like so:
- Main message: [MAIN MESSAGE HERE]
---
TEXT TITLE: {title}
TEXT:
{chunk}
"""
Not a word about the most radical commandment of Christ: "Turn the other cheek." Christ negates the Old Testament and the "eye for an eye" philosophy of the two other Abrahamic religions, which are currently at war. "When Christ calls a man," wrote Dietrich Bonhoeffer, "he bids him come and die." To the world. The Christian dies to the world to live for Christ and the life TO COME, which is superior in every imaginable regard.
Have you ever heard the phrase "after Saturday comes Sunday"?
Proving this is fantasy and not reality.
45:45 "Theres one over here!" All I could think of was 'Get Em!' haha.
Literary critic Harold Bloom put the question succinctly: where shall wisdom be found? Our aging atheistic parents and leaders don’t seem to have much to spare. Why not seek out the wisdom of the ages? Well, we are.
Elizabeth Oldfield kicked ass on this panel, shined beautifully : )
Tbh I still think Alex’s points are the most pragmatic. The issue with her view is that in order to fulfil the life that Christianity espouses you just fully believe. However, that means believing in all the dogmatic baggage as well, and as we know from history that is a very very slippery slope into authoritarian anti enlightenment thinking
@@Llooktook wouldn’t disagree I just think her perspective, and voice were fresh in this continued cultural conversation.
Alex had excellent and important points
I didn`t see any arse kicking mate but she seems to like psychedelics
@@Llooktook anti-'enlightenment' thinking is not a negative.....but Oldfield's view is embarrassingly emotional. So many better names that could have taken her place on this panel.
I hadn’t heard Liz speak before. I really like what she has to say and how she presents herself. What a beautiful Christian she is ❤
The longer this conversation goes on, the more it becomes evident that even if some god created man, man created our understanding of God.
Ian mc Gillchrist says; God and mankind create each other{in an ongoing proces} ...I like that idea! Although I believe that there was some sort of force {God, nature?} before mankind existed....
I believe that God and Abraham saw faith as something of a partnership. I have also heard one Christian philosopher say that God made man in his image such that ‘he’ may understand himself better. I am a blithering amateur in all this so maybe I am just seeing what I want to find.
God made man in his image, and man returned the favour!
@@vanc4297 I like that 😊👍
If God created man and spoke through man and even became one then.....I agree
51:18 “the most incredible piece of fiction” isn’t the deepest possible criticism but the highest possible praise.
This should be an interesting conversation.
13:20 I just learned from Jonathan Haidt that religious families do better with their mental health in a technology-social media era.
It's a reaction to the breakdown of classically liberal socio-political structures. A search for cultural groundedness.
It is being driven by a disenchantment with enlightenment liberalism, a reaction to a rise of socialism, and an identification (false in my view) of classical liberal social structures with traditional Christianity. In the same way as renaissance thinkers reached back to Greece and Rome, the thinking class now are reaching back to Christendom. But not faith per say.
Also - technology has led to a measurable rise in narcissism - and this style of religion is very much narcissistic about "finding myself", and "finding meaning". It's a rise in 'luxury' Christianity. It is similar to when the printing press was invented in many ways.
You’ve nailed it
I see this too. And a general belief that there is so much evil in modern society only God can save Western civilization. Unfortunately the churches are not providing this, they are as said woke, and preach "nice" over the word of God, where as I see young people seeking more "fire and brimstone." Perhaps new faiths will emerge.
You put "finding meaning" in quotation marks so it must be bad lol. Why shouldn't people search for meaning? 🤔
@@SydneyCarton2085 nah, not a bad thing, just hard to define what people actually mean by it.
Gladly it's a very small portion of the thinking class that virtue signals their Christendom allegiance. It's mostly the people that aren't able to critical think that reach back to christiendom. And the people that are not willing to do due dilligence and try to get factional.
It is an error, a reduction, to think that faith demands assent to a series of propositions. And it is likewise an error to think that the "propositions" are irrational. Rationalism is itself a historically determined, closed system that invites circular arguments regarding what counts as rational.
In point of fact, we are, all of us, agnostic. Some of us just admit it.
As someone once said, agnosticism addresses the epistemological question of whether we can know about the existence of God, while atheism deals with the question of belief in God. Two separate questions.
‘Yes, but do you believe in the Virgin birth’ 😂😂😂😂😂
That's isn't clever ....that is just a typical stupid insensitive question meaning absolutely NOTHING
@@bcatcool who said it was clever? I was laughing imagining Dawkins responding to a thoughtful monologue with characteristic terse probing.
@@bcatcool It's part of the Nicene Creed though, isn't it?
There is welcoming the stranger but what about welcoming the stranger whose own religion teaches them to destroy yours. Where does Christianty stand on that?
That's a very good question ...do you?
For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted. Isaiah 60:12
The reason for the state of the world and...the solution. This is God's Word to the world - not an opinion of men.
The more literal EdgeLord are ya?
@@JH-ji6cj Check out demographics as the nation become more athiest the kids do not get born. Wierd but true. Uk aborted 200.000 babys last year. God says dont kill your children but the nation allows it. No kids no nation.
The zinger that Alex had at 35:52 with "God-willing" was really good. He tied that in well in his closing remarks about divine hiddenness. Alex clearly seems open to Christianity. It makes sense that he's bewildered he hasn't experienced something that pushes him to Christianity.
Good one thanks
I applaud Alex's interest in the alternative early Christianities. It's a shame the Christians on the panel recoil so quickly from it. The problem with the label Gnostic is that includes a variety of different groups and positions, not all of which see the physical world as evil..In the Gospel of Thomas, on the contrary, Jesus is in the wood and under the stone. Finally, there is no reason both cannot be true i.e. the actual physical resurrection of Jesus can make possible the spiritual transformation of human beings whilst in this body, since the Divine is within us and we are within thw Divine.
Because if he read the letters of Paul, he would know that the very first apostles claimed Jesus' resurrection and that without a resurrection their faith is in vain.
Elizabeths heart is in the right place but you cannot legislate love of neighbor because that only creates resentment. Her emotions cloud the reasoning that God gave her. If she wants to host an immigrant family, she can do so but she cannot demand that society does the same. A host country has the right to accept any amount of immigrants and set the terms, period. Medieval Christendom had every right to fight off any attempts of Islamic conquer. We sent monks to spread the gospel IN THEIR LAND, in situ.
Yes, I entirely agree. And public figures still tip-toe around this issue.
Yes, she needs to bslsnce welcoming strangers with loving her neighbour
You made a false dichotomy at the end there. The question is about immigration, not military conquest.
I admire Alex greatly but Ecclesiastes is not in support of nihilism. Quite the opposite actually. It does disappoint me when people who have become authorities on the Bible in social media do not have basic knowledge of it.
People are using the comfort they get from a community support ie religion as a therapeutic. That is fine. But is it true? I think that the chance of the founders of these religions having even existed is very low. That means these religions are built on lies. Live not by lies. That does not negate the deep rooted desire for humans to want some form of spiritual connection. We can be spiritual without following ancient poorly thought out philosophy of some people rehashing previous poorly thought out philosophy. My position is ‘I know that I don’t know’.
Woman on the panel perfectly embodies the 'retreat from rationality'.
did you listen to a word of what she said?
100
you haven't understood a word she said ...how about keeping your narrow judgements to yourself and inflict them on the rest of us
@@minecraftbros36 yeah, we did
@@minecraftbros36 The way she described her convictions in the conversion was basing her views on feeling rather than rationality. She was unable to get the religion to make sense rationally but liked the feelings of comfort, raised self worth ("becoming the person she wants to be"), and sense of meaning she got from it.
Purely rational people are generally good at describing the world but this view leaves out meaning. The secular humanists discussed often dont want to admit this and say they can have their cake and eat it too by having an objective secular morality where one fails to exist. The only meaning to be had their is a personal one that has no objective basis to apply it to the world.
Liz and many others do the opposite. She said herself she failed to find meaning or religion using rationality, but felt that religion made her and the world a better person. This sense of "better" is a feeling. She and many others like to try to have their cake and eat it too by claiming that they are rational at the same time, that their feelings should be considered a different kind of rational when they are not the same thing. Likewise to the individuality of meaning of the secular person, the conviction Liz feels for her religion is just a feeling that cannot be made into an objective rational explanation of the world.
I think Liz and those of similar views should do what some moral skeptics have done on the rational side: admit they cant have their cake and eat it too. For example, many postmodernists or nihilists accept a rational view of the world and readily admit there is Admit that these feelings are not rational.
The femininity power of Elizabeth Oldfield is POWERFUL..............
The only person in the panel to actively attack a segment of society.. I think I have seen enough of her for one lifetime
I really enjoyed Elizabeth. First time hearing her. And it’s great seeing Justin here.
Where does this take place? Would love come along sometime
Liz is way off when she projects 'welcoming the stranger' to mass migration. A stranger arrives in your town/village and you might be happy to help. A hundred 'strangers' arrive in your village/town, all men, aged roughly 16 - 40, that's a different ball game. Doesn't she know about the Christian countries that have fallen to Islam? This sort of thinking permeates the established church and our establishment and it's destructive. King Alfred might have been a Christian king, but that didn't stop him fighting the Vikings.
Yeah I don't think she's well informed, she's a bit naive. It almost seems like a misplaced maternalism in how she thinks about the issue.
But... the vikings were an invading army that was raiding and pillaging, not migrating to flew persecution or political/economic instability, and then having kids who generally went on to secularize?
I find this analogy so bizarre. It seems like it has to devolve into either conspiracism ("someone is trying to replace us!") or racism ("brown people will never secularize as we did!"). But maybe you see something else in it?
Which countries?
I think this is somewhat overwriting her arguments. She distinguished clearly that a border policy can be stronger or milder while following the call to love the alien and the enemy. That is a different story. It may be open to interpretation but let's not "read" her mind..!
@@thethinkingimage729 I don't have the slightest problem reading her mind. The number of arrivals has been simply insane. Anyone at this point arguing for ever more of it (a little more or lot more is rather beside the point) is simply the highest form of idiot. It really is this black and white.
Elizabeth - force your self to believe and that will be good for society…… afraid not lady
Alex O'Connor is a profoundly good example of (Christian) charity. So too are the other two speakers. Top notch chat.
Freddie lolz at my vaguely trollish question phrasing, hah nice.
For real though: you can probably infer from Alex's answer, how pending breakthroughs in neurophysics, have the potential to unlock the age-old epistemology/ontology dichotomy.
What is a mental state? Where is it? What is this abstract notion of "God," and how is the brain conceiving of this, and generating this notion? For some concepts, they will soon no longer be relegated to ontological 'nowhere space'.
As our explanatory power increases, our epistemological knowledge increasingly overlaps with our ontological experience.
A good, short version of physicalism vs. materialism, involves the example of light. Light has a physical explanation, you can see how ppl would have doubted this historically. Light is both made of a material (photons) and is also a wave, so there is a physical explanation for the phenomenon, that is not strictly or exclusively material.
Doesn't this example clarify, that the same is likely to be true of consciousness? Of abstract imagined notions, like "God" and "heaven?"
Um...yes it does.
Can someone, probably Alex, answer this one?
Thank you for elaborating. Very interesting thought.
Go Alex. Happy to be a atheist. Can`t stomach hell and the supernatural
Being an atheist is a living hell. Relativism worked out to a place of total meaninglessness....or just pretension and intellectual.dishonesty. No moral no right wrong no meaning no purpose just energy and matter resulting in nothing....
Praying for you. If you can’t stomach hell, you may want to keep searching.
@@TracyGravell Cheers matey. Went from christianity to atheism because it doesn`t stack up
@@TracyGravell I can`t stomach the idea of heaven
Imagine being trapped in heaven with ghastly Christians
I'm 24, I was raised an atheist but have converted to Christianity recently. The atheist world view felt empty and didn't do justice to the full breadth of human experience. I have found myself far happier as a result of conversion. God bless you all.
EDIT: Coming back to this comment after a week, it strikes me how the atheists respond - with much bitterness. I think that speaks volumes.
Loser. lol
What do you mean "raised atheist"?
You weren’t “raised atheist” that makes no sense. You mean you weren’t raised in indoctrination?
Your happiness has no bearing on what’s true
Raised a moron, brought up a fool.
Great conversation with some thoughtful people. I would counter the view that there is movement towards revival with my own anecdotal experience that a huge percentage of my friends, family, colleagues are deconstructing and leaving formal Christianity behind. That, in my world, at least is the real trend at the moment.
Alex finally diagnoses the same problem I observed in one of my videos on nihilism: That we’re not actually suffering from nihilism, but from (technologically induced) worldwide *pluralism.*
Religious advocates were never in possession of any objective meaning - they are merely missing the comfortable certainty that their own views are the correct ones - which is easy to believe if everyone you come into contact with is your local community. That certainty however is impossible to maintain in the face of the internet. Even if smartphones were banned for their addictive potential, we’d still have computers and internet-capable televisions. The internet is a greater force for globalism than any worldwide trade relations.
Wherin is objective meaning ?
Indeed.
This is the real problem of the “paradox of tolerance”- it’s that EVERY ideology other than liberalism is ultimately illiberal in nature in some way, and thus the liberal “marketplace of ideas” has to itself become an intolerant and even totalitarian order in order to sustain itself. “Wokeness” is ultimately the monster that global late capitalism becomes while fighting monsters; it is the abyss gazing back into Neoliberalism.
I don’t see the problem with adopting christianity as a socio-cultural identity i.e, aesthetics,tradition-ritual, allegorical exegesis. You don’t need to buy into all of it’s truth claims to get real communal benefits from it. Beyond that most people are disconnected and utterly insensitive to the value religion brings to the downtrodden of society.
Religion brings nothing but hate and wars in the name of it.
I guess if you pray hard enough then all your problems or societies problems will go away just like magic?
So why don't you open churches up to the homeless for shelter at night? Why are they kept locked and not open? You know the downtrodden in society?
That seems to be a very dishonest way of participating in a religion.
The whole point is that Jesus is the way, the Truth and the life. There’s an ocean of books that address philosophical and historical arguments for Christianity and a good number of academics and scientists do believe. If people want to have fellowship and community without God they’re welcome to do so. When I see a person who assumes it’s made up nonsense I wonder how deeply they’ve considered the question.
@@kristenross2902amen
That is to miss the point of the gospel, it’s empty
‘Woke’ and liberal are different things entirely, woke people who describe themselves as ‘progressive’ are usually intolerant of debate and don’t scrutinise ideas within their political base. It’s also obvious that there’s a religiously dogmatic aspect to it. Woke, (they think they’re ‘progressive’), seems to have replaced both religion and liberalism and it’s worse than either, hence you have people who are closer to the centre defending what’s being attacked and lost, and quickly realising Christianity has some unique goodness. Liberal principles are inherently founded on post-Enlightenment western Christian culture and to defend liberalism you have to defend its cultural history. On top of that there’s a lot of immigration in the west coupled with anti-western narratives on the far left woke who will vilify what they perceive as ‘white culture’ and glorify everything non-white. There are very few people who’d defend western culture let alone say it’s better than other competing cultures and ideologies around the world, and that is setting off alarm bells for a lot of young people. Also rather than seek consistency as liberals might, woke people engage in identity politics and have to employ moral relativism to avoid acknowledging their obvious hypocrisy, as the most important thing for them is not upholding values but righting wrongs of the past as they see them, which they believe is western colonialism. This is how you get woke people ignoring Islamic extremism and making excuses for blasphemy laws while thinking the Westboro church is comparable to millions of jihadis globally. By 2012 ‘woke’ had become a husk of some loose collection of liberal ideas, now divorced from its foundation for over a decade it’s just a flagrant anti-western dogma that’s got more influence from marxism and post-modernism, as unlikely as it is that those things should merge if anyone were actually thinking anything through.
It's fundamentally a psychological response, the post modern attempt to question everything, including common knowledge, common law and the self evident has left these young ones depressed and groping in the dark. The thing about the depressed person is they would rather be anywhere else other than where they are.
I know, I'm a mental health worker.
@Letsthinkaboutit-mb7nn I would agree with you that Islam is something that's poorly understood, I've invested a significant amount of time in understanding it as a liberal duty so as to be fair and know who might be an ally and who is not. What people call 'moderate Islam' is conservative compared to modern western conservatism and even that is not the majority, the majority is fundamentalist conservatives who believe in theocracy which entails draconian corporal and capital punishments. I agree with the essence of what you're saying insofar that liberal and ex-Muslims are allies that should be protected, but they're a small and often under threat minority. In a lot of Islamic countries in MENA you do find modernists who're sick and tired of fanatics, they're often educated aristocrats who're at odds with the clerical status quo. Fundamentally Islam is a return to a literalist interpretation of Old Testament values, so unless people opt out of taking it literally or find some Sufistic room to loosen interpretation it's not really compatible with liberalism.
@Letsthinkaboutit-mb7nn Yes but conservatism in Islam is extreme. Morocco has a majority of conservatives who believe the Sharia is divine and that entails a belief in the death penalty for blasphemy and apostasy in all mainstream schools of jurisprudence. It's not to say everyone does, but a majority do and that is both extreme and incompatible with western liberal society. That's not the law because every state that tries to implement the Sharia turns into a dystopia and educated conservative people often have a dualistic approach to believing that is both preferable but too austere.
@Letsthinkaboutit-mb7nn What do you define as a fundamentalist versus a conservative in the Islamic context? Conservatism demands a level of fundamentalism in Islam because the Quran is supposed to be the literal word of God, whereas it's easier to seperate in Christianity.
Progressivism is the intevitable end result of 90s liberalism, you just despise the world you created.
[what does wisdom look like?]
"Chuang-tzu tells a lovely tale about a sage who was wandering along the bank of a river near an enormous cataract. Suddenly, way up at the top of it, he saw an old man roll off the bank into the water, and he thought, 'This man must be old and ill and is putting an end to himself.' But a few minutes later, way down below the cataract, the old man jumped out of the stream and started running along the bank. So the sage and his disciples hurried, scooting after him and, having caught up with him told him that what he'd done had been the most amazing thing they'd ever seen. 'How did you survive?' they asked. 'Well,' he answered, 'there is no special trick. I just went in with a swirl and came out with a whirl. I made myself like the water, so that there was no conflict between me and the water.' "
-- Alan Watts.
“Everything that happens, happens as it should, and if you observe carefully, you will find this to be so.”
― Marcus Aurelius
No one needs PERMISSION to have meaning.
If the idea of God, or The Mind Behind The Cosmos, helps people feel grounded, then there is absolutely nothing wrong with that in the slightest. It IS a problem when someone tells you that a specific cultural ideology/theology (one that has been proven again and again and again to be wrong about its own inerrancy ) is necessary for how to interpret that meaningful symbol. That is PURE MANIPULATION. Why does it need to be Christianity? Why not Zoroastrianism? Why not Daoisim ? Why not Scientology? Why not revive Roman paganism? Because how/where you were raised determines how you think. Whether or not it is about religion or about ideology in general, We do not get to decide what we want to be historically/factually true just to make us feel happy and content. It is wrong to do so, and damn right dangerous!
Because Christianity holds water and your other examples don't.
@@DartNooboWell it doesn't hold water just because you say so.
Meaning is just the “story”, metaphorically speaking, that we layer onto our conscious experiences. I can’t help but feel your comment here is something like saying “It’s fine to tell a story about our reality, but why does it have to be a *specific* story?” People tell specific stories that they believe to be true, and promoting their story over other competing stories is part of the "truthiness"
The bible says welcome a stranger. Not twenty million of them.
Yeah make sure you use that as your excuse...such loving caring "fake Christians"...are you on a crusade too? 😂
You are assuming it is only applied 1for 1. Maybe it’s 1 for 2, or even 1000 to 2000. You can’t extrapolate your side of the C argument from what you presented.
It also says they must work or not get feed after 3 days. They must follow the biblical laws if they stay. Not to raise up pagan temples or Idals. Also treat them how you want to be treated. Show them Fartherly love. Its not just hugs all round. Some of our leaders have gone soft on some of these.
Yes. Bible also says for ourselves to welcome them into our own homes. Not get the government to welcome them with tax dollars from the citizenry.
Love.your neighbour does not mean letS make a welfare state.
@@Jerome616 I encourage you to read the Scriptures and see if Christians are encouraged to exercise their love with common sense or not. Europe is in the coming decades facing a very serious threat because of the rapid rise of the Muslim population, which is the result of naive immigration policy. One has to be delusional or happily ignorant of Islam if one thinks that these people will not try to dominate Christians and violently subdue them when they have sufficient numbers to do it. Do not be naive and do not be ignorant, because that is playing in the hand of the devil.
The way in which the recent rise and curiosity of religious thinking and ideas isnt necessarily manifesting in the tradational ways ie, attending church etc, shows that there is a kind of shift or transformation in religion and or spirituality emerging that is beyond what has been previously understood by any religion from the past
God gathers those who are open to Him (He is Love) unto Himself, nobody learns the path all at once. You could say we are in a gathering phase.
Superb, what a great contribution to thought