You know when Tom put on the ring nothing happened? I like to think that every time he put the ring on, Sauron instantly got chronic, explosive diarrhea. And the only relief he got was when Tom took the ring off.
@@stevemiller4494 I think you are missing the point. Tom as a character came first and was formative in Tolkien's writing meaning he created the character most likely moments away from death every second in a WW1 trench... It's not a character to be taken lightly and "shit on" like Amazon has
@@daviddiggens8841 They didn't on him. It's difficult to write a character like Tom, within the context of an epic fantasy. I think the show did very well with him. I wish he were MORE involved.
@@BudTezzy2345 ; agreed. Tom Bombadil is part of Tolkien’s overarching mythology. Tolkien once described him as a "spirit of the (vanishing) Oxford and Berkshire countryside". In the Tolkien myth Gandalf had traveled for many centuries in Middle-earth long before the story of The Hobbit. Gandalf meeting Tom makes sense. How this is portrayed in Rings of Power fits the medium of screen adaptations such as with the Jackson films.
Screenwriters don’t understand Tom because they can’t see the point of a character who’s by definition not connected to the plot of the story. Giving him plot-relevance runs completely counter to his character. He’s supposed to be infuriatingly disinterested in intervening in the machinations of evil or good, both of which need power to impose their will. His inclusion in LOTR is an amazing way to show the futility and ugliness of seeking power whatever the purpose. Tom is who Gandalf aspires to be, but he cannot because he feels the obligation to oppose Sauron. Tom poses the question to all of us: ‘are you a moss-gatherer, or a rolling stone?’ Rings of Power turns him into the standard mentor figure. This misses the whole point of him. Very sad.
@TessLowe Agreed. Everyone talks of the Free Spirit and how wonderful it is to be one; but, when it comes to most folk, someone not having an agenda is utterly confusing at best, infuriating at worst.
why does he bother saving frodo and the hobbits then? Is that not him standing with good to defeat evil? Did he not save the entire mission of all three books?
@@huntercarmichael3003 Well, it’s not because he cares about the ring or about defeating Sauron. His motives are disconnected from the larger story of LOTR. Other characters protect Frodo because of his mission. Tom protects him because that’s who Tom is and what Tom does. To make Tom care about the mission to destroy Sauron or as an agent of good trying to destroy evil is to make him a different character entirely.
@@huntercarmichael3003 I'm glad I read through some of the comments before making one. :) This is the exact point I wanted to make! Regardless of our conjecture on what Tom's motivations for saving the hobbit's lives might have been, without Tom's actions who knows what the One ring's fate would have been.
And that's a good thing, because if you really think about what role Tom plays in the story (apart from the fact that he's a nonsense invented based on Tolkien's child's doll falling into the toilet), it turns out that he plays exactly the same role as Yoda. He's an eccentric weirdo whose behavior doesn't fit the grand story. He seems to be someone frivolous, although in fact he's powerful. And yet - whether in the case of Yoda/Luke, Tom/Frodo or now Tom/Stranger relationships, it turns out that this Great Powerful One can't fulfill the task that the hero-who-is-just-growing-up faces - although of course this task is easy for him (I mean, for the Great Powerful One). He could do it, but instead he does something more important - he passes on his wisdom to the hero so that he can move on in his own direction.
@@jacekgadysz184 RoP Tom is like Yoda, but not like Yoda acting silly and tricking Luke to test him and teach him something. Nor is he like the wizened, serious master Yoda that teaches Luke after the initial meeting. He is both of these totally different things at the same time, and it doesn't work, nor does it make any sense. It also doesn't make sense for Tom to wait around for someone to take down the dark wizard, because if Tom actually cares that much, he can do it himself. On the other hand, Yoda make sense, because he knows he cannot stop Vader himself.
I've had my own theories about Bombadil over the years. While his origins will remain a mystery, his purpose was always clear to me, from the first time I read about him at age 12, until more recently at age 65 (gulp!). He was there as respite. Yes, the story was picking up, things were really happening. The Hobbits were now getting an inkling there were big stakes. And then there was Tom, the pause that refreshes. I used to be a musician, and sheet music nearly always included rests. If you were a horn player, quite a few actually. And yeah, they might appear when the music was rolling along, building in drama. But the rests needed to be there, as part of the layers of music that make up the whole piece. And so, Tom was there, as a rest, but not completely inconsequential. He was there to demonstrate to the Hobbits, that as serious as things were getting, in the big scheme of things, it was just a lot of noise. I also think Tom was there to represent Tolkien's viewpoint. He had abhorred the destruction of the English countryside at the hands of mechanized industry. He had experienced the violence and death of the Great War. He wanted Tom to express how important it was to love and appreciate nature, over power and its consequence of destruction. Tom was a sort of reverse macguffin. He was actually very important in and of himself because he was expressing things important to Tolkien, but he did not drive the plot, was not directly involved in the current events of the time. And, like Hitchcock's and Jackson's cameos in their films, I think Tolkien's Bombadil was his cameo. As for ROP, trotting out Bombadil to insert in the 2nd Age and having him act more directly in the events of that age, it's inaccurate, problematic and ultimately as stupid as throwing "Harfoots" into the mix. Just no.
I like the idea of respite. I dance salsa and your point about having pauses, gears or shifts is a very good one to remember. For the story, I think it probably is a mix of a pause as well as remembering the importance of nature. Tom does save the Hobbits from the Wights so he has the potential for direct action. He isn’t neutral or simply always in the background.
I drew a battle scene once. The Orcs darkened the ground. The Men manned the battlements. Dragons circled overhead. Catapults in the distance launched projectiles. And there, sitting on the battlements, is a soldier, a defender, eating popcorn from a red and white striped movie popcorn bucket, oblivious, enjoying the show, with a bottle of Coca Cola to his right. It got me an A+ in Art class.
The birds finding food in the busiest streets of New York City, the Falcons finding prey in the same place, the other creatures that live under our noses ignored and unnoticed by us. Despite what we see as the important busy things in our lives, there's a whole world of amazing things happening that we give zero thought to. The rabbit eating grass as you drive past in your car that you may or may not notice, the deer you almost hit with your car, where is it off to? Where is it coming from? All that stuff.... thats Tom Bombadil.
@@JORE4203 1) Overall I enjoyed season 2 a lot despite it's flaws and lore breaking. I thought it really delivered in the end. I never hated the show I actually want it to succeed, so there goes your assumption. 2) Tom is a total enigma. All readings, poems and character studies of him have him down as a total enigma. He has no side taking, he is non plus about everything... Emotionally he has no interest in Middle Earth goings on. He's never ever serious, in the show he takes obvious sides, and IS serious in the show. It takes away the magic of who he is. His mystery is that he is outside the world and its going ons. If he was written how he is in the show, then logically Gandalf would just give him the ring and that would be that.
let em do whatever they want this show is unsavable alrdy , let em do whatever mistakes they want so the next can watch and learn what not do. (english aint my 1st lang.)
@@peterga3658 People blaming the show should blame them loser ass books and movies the show doesn't have much to go off of lmao yall losers cry to damn much u don't like the show why watch it I'm gonna continue to watch your videos even though I don't like them Am I stupid or is the show stupid
I think the best way to put Tom Bombadil on a screen would be a series of short (5-30 minutes) episodes. They could show him just living his day by day life protecting his forest and following his curiosity.
I would call everything Amazon's doing with The Rings of Power not only a swing and a miss, but a swing and a miss on Vaughn's "just a bit outside" pitch.
Thanks for keeping it real guys, good to see that instead of selling out for studio money you decided to stand up for Tolkien. You have my sword! (and my subscription!)
He could work on screen in his own show. I'd make it not a drama but more in the style of a relaxing, feel good insight into his every day life with his wife. Like a mockumentary. They could include the visits from the hobbits and Gandalf from his perspective, and what he was up to before and after. As someone who sometimes puts on his chapter to fall to sleep to, it'd be a great show. 😁
It’s garbage when you think of it as an adaptation. I’ve found it more enjoyable when I think of it more like an original series, separate from Tolkien’s works
It kind of highlights Peter Jackson’s knowledge of the books… he had much more knowledge of all the characters, and understood story plots to stay away from (such as Bombadil). This series isn’t even that entertaining, considering that the characters are all idiots. I really don’t see Amazon making a third season after this.
Considering most of the characters in rings of power barely get a glancing blow from Tolkien, I think it's pretty awesome they were able to connect the dots to tell the story of how the rings came to be and how Sauron came to power. It can't be perfect because the characters weren't built but the story was. The one thing fans said was missing from LOTR was Bombadil, so... that's why he was included this time. Hopefully people will stop hating everything extended universe.
I love mystery and unexplained whimsy, thus I love the Tom B character in the lore. I was sorely sad to see him, the barrow-downs, the wights, and most of Bree-land, cut from the LOTR films. But this? This is not the way to introduce him to the world at all. As with everything else RoP is doing, they're getting it wrong, wrong, wrong. All RoP does is take beloved characters, places, and events, and crap all over them.
I disagree, the show has done alot of things right. It's not perfect but not as bad as you all make it sound. Sauron, numenor, khazad dum, durin, elrond, eregion, and celebrimbor are true to middle earth imo. The harfoots storyline is obviously going to explain the shire. Tolkien didn't write about the 2nd age in detail like he did the 3rd age. So yea they have to interpret alot of things and fill in the blanks. Something is better than nothing.
RoP didn't "fill in the blanks", Amazon just didn't secure the right to The Silmarillion when they got the ones for TLotR so corporate just created fanfic that DIRECTLY CONTRADICTS the original lore. Gamdalf is about 2000 years too early, the rings were made in months, with 7 and 9 done with their final purpose instead of there being 200 years of research and uncountable lesser tings done before forging 16 FOR THE ELVES that he then latter steals and distributes as stated on the poem. The dwarves of Kazha-dum are friends to the elves and Eregion was founded where it is ON PURPOSE for said mithril instead we got angry dwarves stumbling on Durin's Bane quite a few centuries too early. And we got a angst YA Galadriel instead of the wise 6000+ years old elf that is one of the oldest beings alive in middle earth....
@@obsidian7644lmao that’s a terrible take. “Something is better than nothing”? Part of the fun of certain aspects of a story is NOT knowing for certain and having that sense of mystery & being open to interpretation. Also there’s some shit that just DOESN’T need to be told or explained.
@obsidian7644 There's plenty of enough detail to avoid this. These guys don't care about Tolkien, its just content and the fact they've messed it up so badly should make even the most casual of Tolkien fans feel used. Its like paining over the Mona Lisa. It's a masterpiece, so sure, you could do better? No, no you can't. So don't try. It's not GOT, it's not Breaking bad, its an 80 year old peice of art.
I love LOTR and all of the Tolkien world, I am not we versed in all areas but I was disappointed in the hobbit being a trilogy, so now even as an Amazon Prime subscriber, I can't bring myself to even consider watching the rings of power, it feels like Amazon is the dark lord and it is torturing us, very much like the elves were, until we become enslaved to them, like orcs.
I always liked the idea that when Elu was singing the song of creation and Morgoth interrupted, Eru took Morgoths song, harmonized it, and created Tom out of the chaos to balance creation. So he's THE note Elu sung to bring Morgoth's song into the entirety instead of just shutting him down.
I like this interpretation. Notably, Tom was in Arda before Morgoth went there: " (Tom) knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless--before the Dark Lord came from Outside." So it fits the idea that Eru sung him into existence preemptively knowing that Morgoth would go there and put his corruption into everything. He would represent a timeless, enduring permanence in the world, unmoved by desires or conflicts of power.
Every aspect in the world of Middle-Earth; the ground, sea, air, trees, courage, fear, love, time, EVERYTHING started as a singularity. Everything is a diffused version of the will of some Valar or a Maiar working under them. Tom Bombadil is one that has not diffused. He has managed to stay pure and true to his original purpose. He seems so powerful because he does not stray from the original Song of Illuvitar. That's how I like to think of him. He wouldn't EVER deviate to accommodate things going on in the world around him, not to a meaningful extent.
I have always enjoyed the Bombadil character in whatever form it appears. In the ROP he is a informant, different from a teacher and his information is needed to fill the voids that the Stranger has. The Stranger is an empty shell, learning by experiment and some of those do not work. He needs more information to help connect the dots and give direction. I hope Tom appears some more.
Yes they made Gandalf fall to earth with the skills of a new born child meanwhile hes a deity servant of the gods of creation with skills and knowledge beyond the comprehension of people of middle earth and has been for timeless ages. Makes sense to me, screw it. As long as they get to teach us that little diverse hobbit girls can be the real heroes too then who cares about the effort Tolkien made to create his universe.
The issue with The Rings of Power showing Tom is that they have no clue what they’re doing and going beyond creative liberties BECAUSE they don’t understand the lore. But they don’t care to understand it since the objective is to rewrite and twist it to their own liking rather than staying true to the lore.
In the rings of power they could have made the stranger trying to understand and extract meaning from toms riddles and songs, as he has done so along most other inteactions with characters such as norie. meanwhile we know there is no substance there, its just tom being tom, not really caring if the stranger finds a staff, or his friends. with then the stranger leaving on to continue his quest thinking his drawn some sort of meaning, but heavily confused, and us the audience, knowing it was just Tom. Allows a bit of relevance to the plot, while keeping toms character in tact
Tom was part of the Hobbits' fantastical Journey to Bree that I always look forward to reading. I've not watched any Rings of Power episodes, as I'm happy with the book and my imagination.
May I offer another perspective of him in RoP; being this is the first time we are seeing him and this being in the 2nd Age, maybe he later on takes a more laid back approach when Frodo and the rest meet him? Perhaps, at this point of time, he’s different. I don’t know I just think that you’ve got to expand your mindset when it comes to this stuff. I do however think they could’ve had Tom a bit more cheerful in speech and cadence.
I still wish that the Barrow Wights were included in Jackson's movies but the chapter at his house with Goldberry was a psychodellic fever dream and i'm actually glad this wasn't included 😅
Same. The Barrow wights was my favorite chapter from book 1 of Fellowship. But it'd have been difficult for them to keep it in while also leaving out Tom.
After spending a lifetime reading Tolkien, watching all the films several times and streaming the series, it is obvious that Tm Bombadil is Iluvatar. He even said so when he said “ I am the oldest”. He can only be illuvatar. It explains all of his characteristics.
the problem with Rings of Power they don't understand Tolkien. his world view, his morality, they don't understand anything. the best example is when he says the line "Many that die deserve life, some that live deserve death." which is a a paraphrase on a line Gandalph says in the book, but in the book it's a call for Pitty for Gollum, while in the series is callous disregard for the lives of the proto-hobbits...not really inline with the characters as depicted by Tolkien. Tom Bombadil can be depicted on screen, but by people who understand the source material.
It isn't that they don't understand, is that they straight up don't care. They want to take something that is beloved and twist it to their own purposes because they do not have the talent and the imagination to create something on their own. As I once saw someone say, "If you are a fan of something for what it could be and not what it is, then you are not truly a fan."
By source material you mean the one poem about Tom Bombadil, who was physically based on a creepy (most likely) looking child's toy, that once Tolkein got the LoTR going, he then shoe horned into the trilogy? It's funny: Tolkein fans idolize the man to such a degree that they can never consider that Tom may just be Tolkein's ego and pride put to pen. He was Tolkein's first work, a doll he bought for his child and all the memories and thoughts and feelings that brings with it. He didn't want Tom to be forgotten. Doesn't take some pseudo-religious metaphysics to understand having an attachment to your first and never forgetting or wanting it to be forgotten.
@@LackofFaithify There is actually a decent amount written about Tom by Tolkien. All of it obviously ignored by the RoP writers. Much as they ignored everything about the rest of the characters. This is why I consider RoP to be nothing more than bad FanFic. Your condescending attitude is amusing though.
@@LackofFaithify It doesn't matter what meta reasons motivated WHY Tolkien inserted Bombadil into the LOTR. The sort of speculations about "ego and pride" that you are doing just end up as exercises in projection - maybe that would be YOUR motivation, but we don't really have a way to read Tolkien's mind. So it's useless speculation on your part and in the end, doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what "ego and pride" reasons might have led to the insertion of Tom into the LOTR. All that really matters from a 'credible adaptation' perspective is, "Who is the character as represented in the original work?" And as written, 'in the source material' (LOTR, the poem and Tolkien's letters), he represents fundamentally different from how he was is being presented in ROP.
I haven't watched much of the rings of power lately, but based on what I've heard through youtubers mainly (a very reliable source for news) I get the sense that the writers are very much writing their own story with their OCs at the heart of it. The book characters on the other hand look like sometimes useful obligations (sometimes not), molded into something to further the new characters' story arcs, or to be there to say things that are meant to invoke the authority and gravitas of Tolkien's other works carry.. I'm sure when they heard of Tom Bombadil for the first time they went around high fiving everyone. Here is a character who is the perfect unknown empty vessel, to casual watchers anyway, who can be molded into whatever or say whatever.
I liked the mannersims and look of Tom in ROP. I didn't find it out of place in the ROP, esp given many other changes. I have found the many groups and comments exploring different characters very useful to extend my understanding, even though I have read the books many times. Bomadil along with TreeBeard are my favourite characters in the books.
I was really disappointed that Jackson left out Tom Bombadil and the Barrow Wights from his movies. Bombadil was the most magical character in a magical story. It would have been such a delightful interlude in the LOTR movies. Almost like what Beorn was in the Hobbit.
My theory is that Tolkien was heavily influenced by the events of the two world wars and that he was writing a fantasy version of how wars start and who influences them. Basically an evil quest for power versus those who fight against this evil. During WW2, Switzerland declared themselves a neutral country. Imagine a secretive quest to overthrow Hitler and his minions while the war was raging, and the quest route takes the small group through Switzerland. Tom Bombadill was the fantasy personification of Switzerland.
I'll respectfully disagree that a "narrative-driven" show couldn't handle Bombadil. Particularly in a serialized format, think of him as a monster of the week: The party is granted an unexpected respite after he helps them, he explains a few things in his own cryptic, detached way, and the main characters have some down time for a bit of exposition (with a good excuse). He can move the plot forward -- even if just a little bit -- without being part of it directly and still maintain the air of "WTF was that?" that characterizes him. And you get a bit of the flavor of the world, as it was intended, _particularly_ the insight that the ring saga is not the only thing that's going on.
In my understanding, Tom is an avatar of the world of Arda itself. I can see there being more than one avatar, more than one Tom Bombadil, each with somewhat different qualities. But, if you meet one of them, they will all know and remember you. Gandalf may have been mentored by a Teacher Tom, but Gandalf knew he could visit Silly Cringe Tom in a certain forest.
Tom represents the real world that has been doing its thing long before us, natural cycles continue on despite us doing our best to ruin everything, and will continue doing its thing long after we're gone. And the day will come when we will be gone. But not Tom.
Tom was a Tolkien children's toy lost during some kind of family picnic, a bearded man with a huge hat and yellow boots.. so, children were sad and Tolkien made Tome lives in his book, happy, singing and gave him a divine lady..
Yes, I agree. Amazon has involved Tom into everything, from training the Dark Wizard, Training Gandolf, yet he has some canon moments, like misunderstanding everything that the Stranger says. To me, he can't understand all of the problems of MIddle Earth, nor does he even want to try. That's part of his charm.
To be fair Tom was a friend of Gandalf, and in the end of Return of the King it says that he stayed with Tom for a while before departing for Valinor. So yea maybe ROP went a little extra with him but I for one don’t mind his seriousness in this series. What they did to Galadriel is another story…
Like you take on Tom . May I add that far from being a “throw away character” he plays a crucial role in the story of the Lord of the Rings. One of the misunderstood things is that main story of the LoTR is about the Hobbits journey from being timid creatures, dependent on the world of the “Big Folk” to being able to stand on their own and make a significant contribution to that world, which is, in my opinion, Tolkien’s “myth for England”. That is why the exclusion of “The Scourging of the Shire” is also a tragic omission to me, but I digress. If we take the Hobbits journey view point, Tom by chance (or not … I believe it was Divine Intervention) finds the Hobbits when they strayed from the right path. He rescued Merry and Pippin for Old Man Willow . He gave sanctuary, comfort, rest to these wayward travelers and showed them there is a power unaffected by the prevailing evil of the world, something you covered well. Again rescues them from the Barrow-wights and gets them back on the path to Bree. One other thing Ole Tom does ,that gets missed, is during his rescue from the Barrow-wights mound, he give the Hobbits the Barrow-blades, which by chance (as stated earlier…or not) are of the few weapons effective against the Ring Wraiths. One of which Merry uses to stab the Witch King in the back of the leg allowing Éowyn to destroy him and helped turn the Battle of Pelennor Fields and cost Sauron his key General. So without Tom, the hobbits get hopelessly lost, trapped in the Barrow mounds without hope of rescue, maybe becoming Barrow-wights themselves and the Witch King lives. Or as in Jackson films, you skip Ole Tom and there is no valid reason why Merry can pierce the Witch Kings invulnerability and it diminishes his contribution to mere Hobbit foolishness instead of the reason Éowyn was able to defeat him with her sword. Not bad for a foolish, singing, carefree, “throw away”, misunderstood character! Agree for a 2-3 movie that hard to pull off. As for the TRoP version… well trite would be a better name and me thinks they should leave Ole Tom alone for they know not who are what they deal with!
According to Tolkien himself, Bombadil serves no other purpose than that of being an adventure for the Hobbits on their journey, he is not an important character in the story. He is not a supernatural being, he is an enigma. Bombadil is not part of the mythology of Middle Earth, he was simply a diversion for the Hobbits, His absence does not affect the outcome.
@@meganhuggins7494 If I am citing your source it reads: In response to a letter, Tolkien described Tom in The Lord of the Rings as "just an invention" and "not an important person - to the narrative", even if "he represents something that I feel important, though I would not be prepared to analyse the feeling precisely. I would not, however, have left him in, if he did not have some kind of function."
To give Justice to the character such as Tom Bombadil, the movie makers should be as careless & uninvolved just like Tom; which mean they shouldn't bother bringing the character on the screen & not trouble him. He is Tom, & that's how he is. Period.
Once I read the books, which admittedly I did after watching the movie, I was sad not to see an interpretation of the character on the big screen, but I got it. His placement in the story just doesn't fit the narrative structure of the movies. It would have slowed down the story in its first part way too much. I think the only way they could have done would have been if the first movie was like 30 minutes longer (and I mean the extended version) and they found a way to place it *after* Rivendell, so like separate momenterally Frodo and the Hobbit from the rest of the Fellowship and have them meet Tom once the stakes have already been enstablished and then have Tom somewhat help them to reunite with Gandalf and the others, maybe even have a brief interaction between Gandalf and Tom....so basically, by heavily deviating from Tolkien's lore anyway just for the sake of including the character in a way that didn't kill the pace of the movie or made it harder to set the stakes.
People blaming the show should blame them loser ass books and movies the show doesn't have much to go off of lmao yall losers cry to damn much u don't like the show why watch it I'm gonna continue to watch your videos even though I don't like them Am I stupid or is the show stupid
Stfu, and just let people enjoy the show ya nerd. It amazes me that yall try to gatekeep what can be in this fictional world and who's allowed in it. You are shitty people for that.
I like the actor they chose, but Tom's entire character in the books was his inscrutability. Now he's just another positive character. They could have included him, but he should have been frustratingly unperturbed by the events around him.
I couldn't agree more. I recently tried to explain this exact issue I had with it to my brother. You have vocalized it better than I did however and will be forwarding this to him. Lol He has not watched season 2, but we're both Tolkien lovers and both very disappointed in the rings of power and their butchering of his story thus far.
Tom Bombadil in Fellowship of the Ring is Tom Bombadil in the late Third Age. Tom Bombadil in the Rings of Power is Tom Bombadil in the Second Age. Thousands of years separate the two ages.
Which with a character like Bombadil would make absolutely no difference. He is not mortal, and the passage of time does not affect him like he is a mortal.
Although Tolkien isolates Tom from these struggles, giving the hobbits the daggers from the mounds shows that he is somehow involved in these events. If Tom were absolutely isolated in Middle-earth affairs as claimed in the video, he would not even help the Hobbits, but with this initiative he has become involved to a certain extent. Just as Tolkien left his involvement in the story just right, the series did what the movies could not do with Tom by including him in the theoretical-fictional story in the script.
They could have just used him and his realm as a safe point, like he was in the books. Someone is chased by orks (or what have you), arrives within the bounds of Tom's realm in the nick of time and they are immediately safe and can rest, until they have to continue their journey. Surely nothing and no one could hurt you while you're in Tom's care
I'm glad you focus on the term whimsy. All fantasy comes down to those three things, Worldbuilding, wonder and whimsy. Whimsy used to be a bigger part of fantasy because in the pre digital age it was very hard to describe a truly alien mind or culture without it. but whimsy suffers in adaptation more than the other two elements do. Jackson rightly or wrongly chose worldbuilding and wonder over whimsy nearly every time in the Lotr trilogy. Ropey largely does the same. They're both right to do so. But Tom Bombadil is all about the whimsical element of lotr. He has no business being in an adaptation that has given up whimsy. Interestingly the pre Jackson lotr fandom was very into whimsy and Tom was such a fan favourite that Jackson had to really defend taking him out.
It's not surprising that they can't figure out what to do with Tom. The problem is modern audiences are used to things being 100% plot, where everything is a one dimensional, highly detailed, purposive, coherent unity. They want LOTR to be another marvel or star wars. There's no appreciation for the poetic; which is a shame, as Tolkien's work is half poetry.
An adaption would need to commit to a theory about him and then use that to introduce the bigger picture. For example Tom = Aule incarnation. Then do the creation of the universe from The Silmarillion with Aule and show a preincarnated Gandalf and Balrogs. But then half the fanbase would get annoyed about committing to a theory. But ultimately that is Tom's role - to show there is a bigger picture, that there are things in the universe more powerful than Sauron.
I think you can also say it doesn’t matter what Tom’s purpose in the novels was. They can use him and update him however they want for their purposes. Is it interesting and fun in the end is the only thing that reality matters.
I think you said it perfectly, Tom is nature personified. Does Middle Earth care about the ring? When it lay at the bottom of the river, did it try to push it out to the sea? It is of no consequence.
Inside story is Tolkien's wife wrote the Tom B. chapter and created Tom and the Lady herself. Tolkien liked it so well that he just edited it a bit to fit the big picture, then left it alone and they never spoke about it to the public. It's funny actually. Either his wife, or one of his high profile author friends* that is.
I think Bombadil was the first 'experiment' created by Eru Iluvatar .. the first .. before all else in middle earth. As Eru and the Ainur used 'music' to create, for good or ill, Bombadil could master nature using music. Old man willow, the barrow wights, the one ring .. none could master the song of Bombadil. As for 'The Rings of Power' !!!! The spirit of Melkor and his clamorous distorted drone still lives!!!
The careless way in which they added him fits the careless way in which they put the show together. It’s a grand and epic storyline that’s both disjointed and illogical that is filled with unlikable characters who show up when the plot needs them to and who find what the plot needs them to find to advance a plot that doesn’t seem to know how to get to the end.
Im glad that brought Tom into the series, but i wish they had kept his more colorful demeanor. I also appreciate how the Broken Sword is able to express their opinion without being an asshole. I personally have enjoyed season 2 after a mixed and shaky season 1. There are still things i would change but im overall enjoying the show.
I LIKE the Rings Of Power. It gives context to LOTR and is meant to stand separately as a What IF. As there are no references to the previous age when the Rings were created, ROP is a fairly good idea of what Might have happened not What DID happen. It reminds me more of the old 70's animated LOTR rather than the live one.
I have mixed feelings about it. He’s certainly not book Tom, but he does have a different sort of appeal. But even that didn’t get a chance to shine. I feel like at this point, the Legendarium has sort of become a zombie of a franchise. It was great when it was alive (when Tolkien creating it and sharing it with us), but now people refuse to let it rest, and they have begun to see it decaying
Bombadil is a spirit and a manifestation of the land and the forest. Bombadil has no real place in Tolkiens' theology because he was originally an independent kids' story, and he was brought in to the LOTR when Tolkien thought he was writing a sequel to the Hobbit. After LOTR became more serious, Bombadil STAYED in simply because Tolkien liked him. There was no hidden agenda, and he adds nothing to the story beyond fun adventure. Dropping him from the movie was a no-brainer.
I feel they toned him down to make him fit but it's kind of hilarious when they switch to the Stoor who is more whimsical than Tom in the very next scene, at that point why not go all out.
Okay I feel like this is one of those things that people are taking to far.. I have my issues with the ROP but Tom is absolutely not one of them! Tom was great in my opinion he didn’t actually do anything he just helped guide Gandalf. In the books he was involved and even saved Frodo! Also Tom is known to spend lots of time with Gandalf and therefore likely guiding him! Yes Tom is shown not to “care” about what happens in the world but I see that as more of a it’s not his place or purpose to metal in the affairs of the world other than guiding others tasks the secret flame has given him!
To me he's kinda a Buddha figure. I know Tolkien didn't intent that or anything but that's how I view him. He's above suffering and is compassionate and wise. I know it wouldn't have fit the films but I do think there is a place for him in RoP, sadly it wasn't done well and they blew a great opportunity.
Consider that Isildur is alive during the show. This means Sauron's entire rise to power, rule, and defeat all happen within one lifetime. Wow, dangerous Dark Lord indeed. Retconning Tom Bombadil into an active character is the least of the show's problems. We really shouldn't concern ourselves with bad fan fiction.
Tom was always for me a personification of Illuvatar himself in middle earth in a mythological level and a bit of 4th wall breaking in a literary level , he has the power and could solve everything at once and that why he has to not be involved or interested because this would be the end of any adventure. The same philosophy as if every prayer was to be granted no human would try on anything his mysterious attitude is a reminder of philosophical questions about religions, God , prayer and stays mysterious because none knows the answers and Tolkien as a religious man knew that. The whole |Tom Bombadil part is to me deeply philosophical but written in a lighthearted fairytale manner , but all this philosophical stuff are uncashable so now they did him as an average wizard who is part of the plot. I'm not watching rings of power neither any other fantasy series cause they are not escapism anymore they don't feel otherworldly no matter how fancy the costumes/sceneries are.
Nailed it. Bombadil almost by definition is mysterious and undefinable and his concerns are very specific and local. If you attempt to define him either as a wizard tutor or anything else, you've ruined him.
Anyone wants to bet that in the end ROP’s Tim Bambidull will turn to Grand-Elf and say “Now it’s time Tom went gather some moss, and you go be the rolling stone” 😂
Opinion (cause everyone has one lol): Tom Bombadil is (of course) meant to be a PARADOX. He is the embodiment of the Tao. He legitimately has ASPECTS of everything we always attribute to him from "Eru" to "Nature" because he IS all these things. He REFLECTS aspects of the HIGHEST ORDER of Vibration...He embodies the Song. He IS the sentient 'base program' the code by which Eru writes. Yet he is NOT Eru or the lesser entities. He is UNIQUE in that he is tied to the Soul of the World. Should it and civilization fall it means nothing in the LARGE scheme of things. He is the mechanism that can set it all back in balance. Also: To have him guide the one that will prove to be the ONLY faithful Istari (Gandalf) makes sense. Its not a matter of Bombadil being greater or lesser than anyone...he simply IS. (My two cents)
Just make believe that Tom is a Watcher from Marvel comics and in Rings of Power he interferes with middle earth in the Second age and didn’t really help but made it worse maybe that’s why in the third age he choose not to really interfere anymore
I want to see an animated LotR adaptation . 6 films, 3 hours each. Glorfindel, Tom, the Scouring, let's go. Tom in RoP was not great. I think Rory Kinnear was a decent choice to play Tom, but there were too many other factors working against his portrayal... like, the show being awful, for instance.
Tom bombadil is the first ever isekaid character stuck in middle earth not his world has the luxury of ignoring the events of middle earth largely just living his best life in peace with his wife whom he met here in middle earth
He could be a true neutrual allignment. The maker is basing his believes about tom about the very little that is written about him. The ROP can him make any way they seem fit while still not really deminish his character
I love seeing a high production value middle earth series it's not cannon and just abit of fun. But it is really hard to not be frustrated with what they have done. I understand change for the sake of adaptation from book to film. But changing something just for the sake of change is really bad.
He is somewhat relevant, we can deduce it from the book which says that after the war of the ring, Gandalf says he will come to him for they have many things to talk about..I am guessing Gandalf wouldn't waste his last dayes in middle earth just to sing and smoke with dear Ole Tom...would he?
I think Toms decisions to not partake in any wars saved the entire planet.... his power would be far exceeding morgoth, for he is the embodiment of Eluvitar, as are everyone else at a lower state. He knew that he can not partake, just like gandalf knew he shouldn't use his power it would make fighting for protection a pradox as it would destroy everything, thus why the istari came to middl eeart with limited powers.
Honestly he is one of the better parts of the show, but that's not really saying anything. It's like saying which ant eating you when you are buried in the sand of the desert is doing the best job, it all hurts and you don't want to go through it anyway.
I was half expecting Elrond to be crying the dwarfs didn't come but some blue coated misfit weirdo skipping over the ridge singing and leading an ent army. Then he just leaves, he just vanishes and Elrond is like... wtf just happened?
My issue is with the amount of power this character wields. I have not read the books and cant really say i know much about him. Honestly, though. How much did he actually do in the series? Think about it. He does not intervene in any way. He "guides" gandalf (if you can even call it that) by talking in riddles and gandalf finds out for himself. Granted, He does mention that it is gandalfs destiny to fight sauron.
Tom already said he's been here before the sun. The episode was straight up called "Eldest" because it was about Tom. He literally can't be a blue wizard. The Stranger and the Dark Wizard can.
You know when Tom put on the ring nothing happened? I like to think that every time he put the ring on, Sauron instantly got chronic, explosive diarrhea. And the only relief he got was when Tom took the ring off.
Sauron didn’t want Bombadills smoke…. Or…. laxatives in this case.
Literally, Tom Bombadil is older than middle earth. Tolkien wrote The Adventures of Tom Bombadil years before he wrote The Hobbit.
Tom is just a side quest in the Book... Nothing more nothing less.
@@stevemiller4494 I think you are missing the point.
Tom as a character came first and was formative in Tolkien's writing meaning he created the character most likely moments away from death every second in a WW1 trench...
It's not a character to be taken lightly and "shit on" like Amazon has
@@daviddiggens8841 They didn't on him. It's difficult to write a character like Tom, within the context of an epic fantasy. I think the show did very well with him. I wish he were MORE involved.
Tom bombadil is just a farmer from the Cotswolds shoved into a fantasy mythology book
@@BudTezzy2345 ; agreed. Tom Bombadil is part of Tolkien’s overarching mythology. Tolkien once described him as a "spirit of the (vanishing) Oxford and Berkshire countryside".
In the Tolkien myth Gandalf had traveled for many centuries in Middle-earth long before the story of The Hobbit. Gandalf meeting Tom makes sense.
How this is portrayed in Rings of Power fits the medium of screen adaptations such as with the Jackson films.
Screenwriters don’t understand Tom because they can’t see the point of a character who’s by definition not connected to the plot of the story. Giving him plot-relevance runs completely counter to his character. He’s supposed to be infuriatingly disinterested in intervening in the machinations of evil or good, both of which need power to impose their will. His inclusion in LOTR is an amazing way to show the futility and ugliness of seeking power whatever the purpose. Tom is who Gandalf aspires to be, but he cannot because he feels the obligation to oppose Sauron. Tom poses the question to all of us: ‘are you a moss-gatherer, or a rolling stone?’ Rings of Power turns him into the standard mentor figure. This misses the whole point of him. Very sad.
@TessLowe Agreed. Everyone talks of the Free Spirit and how wonderful it is to be one; but, when it comes to most folk, someone not having an agenda is utterly confusing at best, infuriating at worst.
why does he bother saving frodo and the hobbits then? Is that not him standing with good to defeat evil? Did he not save the entire mission of all three books?
@@huntercarmichael3003 Well, it’s not because he cares about the ring or about defeating Sauron. His motives are disconnected from the larger story of LOTR. Other characters protect Frodo because of his mission. Tom protects him because that’s who Tom is and what Tom does. To make Tom care about the mission to destroy Sauron or as an agent of good trying to destroy evil is to make him a different character entirely.
@@huntercarmichael3003 I'm glad I read through some of the comments before making one. :) This is the exact point I wanted to make! Regardless of our conjecture on what Tom's motivations for saving the hobbit's lives might have been, without Tom's actions who knows what the One ring's fate would have been.
Screenwriters don't understand the entire milieu. I'm not even a rapid fan and yet I was screaming at the screen saying "no, No, NO!".
Amazon have turned Tom into Yoda, and his scenes with not Gandalf in the previous episode was just ripped straight from
Empire Strikes Back
And that's a good thing, because if you really think about what role Tom plays in the story (apart from the fact that he's a nonsense invented based on Tolkien's child's doll falling into the toilet), it turns out that he plays exactly the same role as Yoda. He's an eccentric weirdo whose behavior doesn't fit the grand story. He seems to be someone frivolous, although in fact he's powerful. And yet - whether in the case of Yoda/Luke, Tom/Frodo or now Tom/Stranger relationships, it turns out that this Great Powerful One can't fulfill the task that the hero-who-is-just-growing-up faces - although of course this task is easy for him (I mean, for the Great Powerful One). He could do it, but instead he does something more important - he passes on his wisdom to the hero so that he can move on in his own direction.
@@jacekgadysz184 RoP Tom is like Yoda, but not like Yoda acting silly and tricking Luke to test him and teach him something. Nor is he like the wizened, serious master Yoda that teaches Luke after the initial meeting. He is both of these totally different things at the same time, and it doesn't work, nor does it make any sense. It also doesn't make sense for Tom to wait around for someone to take down the dark wizard, because if Tom actually cares that much, he can do it himself. On the other hand, Yoda make sense, because he knows he cannot stop Vader himself.
100%
I've had my own theories about Bombadil over the years. While his origins will remain a mystery, his purpose was always clear to me, from the first time I read about him at age 12, until more recently at age 65 (gulp!). He was there as respite. Yes, the story was picking up, things were really happening. The Hobbits were now getting an inkling there were big stakes. And then there was Tom, the pause that refreshes. I used to be a musician, and sheet music nearly always included rests. If you were a horn player, quite a few actually. And yeah, they might appear when the music was rolling along, building in drama. But the rests needed to be there, as part of the layers of music that make up the whole piece. And so, Tom was there, as a rest, but not completely inconsequential. He was there to demonstrate to the Hobbits, that as serious as things were getting, in the big scheme of things, it was just a lot of noise. I also think Tom was there to represent Tolkien's viewpoint. He had abhorred the destruction of the English countryside at the hands of mechanized industry. He had experienced the violence and death of the Great War. He wanted Tom to express how important it was to love and appreciate nature, over power and its consequence of destruction. Tom was a sort of reverse macguffin. He was actually very important in and of himself because he was expressing things important to Tolkien, but he did not drive the plot, was not directly involved in the current events of the time. And, like Hitchcock's and Jackson's cameos in their films, I think Tolkien's Bombadil was his cameo. As for ROP, trotting out Bombadil to insert in the 2nd Age and having him act more directly in the events of that age, it's inaccurate, problematic and ultimately as stupid as throwing "Harfoots" into the mix. Just no.
In a more simplistic term all he was was a side quest LOL
I like the idea of respite. I dance salsa and your point about having pauses, gears or shifts is a very good one to remember. For the story, I think it probably is a mix of a pause as well as remembering the importance of nature. Tom does save the Hobbits from the Wights so he has the potential for direct action. He isn’t neutral or simply always in the background.
I drew a battle scene once. The Orcs darkened the ground. The Men manned the battlements. Dragons circled overhead. Catapults in the distance launched projectiles. And there, sitting on the battlements, is a soldier, a defender, eating popcorn from a red and white striped movie popcorn bucket, oblivious, enjoying the show, with a bottle of Coca Cola to his right. It got me an A+ in Art class.
@@shannonalaminski2619 that sounds so awesome😄
C+
The birds finding food in the busiest streets of New York City, the Falcons finding prey in the same place, the other creatures that live under our noses ignored and unnoticed by us. Despite what we see as the important busy things in our lives, there's a whole world of amazing things happening that we give zero thought to. The rabbit eating grass as you drive past in your car that you may or may not notice, the deer you almost hit with your car, where is it off to? Where is it coming from? All that stuff.... thats Tom Bombadil.
Him being concerned about Sauron and Middle Earth directly with seriousness and worry in his voice... It basically killed his mystery.
This isn’t Tolkien
@@rev.joelrichter1290 I know but they did Tom dirty. It was put in for no reason other than to say we used Tom.
Turns out they didn’t do Tom wrong, you just hate on the show. The way they ended Tom’s arc this season was perfection.
@@JORE4203
1) Overall I enjoyed season 2 a lot despite it's flaws and lore breaking. I thought it really delivered in the end. I never hated the show I actually want it to succeed, so there goes your assumption.
2) Tom is a total enigma. All readings, poems and character studies of him have him down as a total enigma. He has no side taking, he is non plus about everything... Emotionally he has no interest in Middle Earth goings on. He's never ever serious, in the show he takes obvious sides, and IS serious in the show. It takes away the magic of who he is. His mystery is that he is outside the world and its going ons. If he was written how he is in the show, then logically Gandalf would just give him the ring and that would be that.
Tom's arc 😂😂😂
Lololol! That may be the one character ever written very specifically to NOT have an arc lol. Good laugh though lol.
let em do whatever they want this show is unsavable alrdy , let em do whatever mistakes they want so the next can watch and learn what not do. (english aint my 1st lang.)
No you’re just lazy.
Learn to type.
@@peterga3658 People blaming the show should blame them loser ass books and movies the show doesn't have much to go off of lmao yall losers cry to damn much u don't like the show why watch it
I'm gonna continue to watch your videos even though I don't like them
Am I stupid or is the show stupid
I think the best way to put Tom Bombadil on a screen would be a series of short (5-30 minutes) episodes. They could show him just living his day by day life protecting his forest and following his curiosity.
There's an audio version made by a fan available, its top tier. Entire book word for word. He does an amazing job with Tom Bombadil
I would call everything Amazon's doing with The Rings of Power not only a swing and a miss, but a swing and a miss on Vaughn's "just a bit outside" pitch.
Plus 15 points for a " Major League" reference.
@@ProtoNeoVintage "Taylor's calling his shot!"
Thanks for keeping it real guys, good to see that instead of selling out for studio money you decided to stand up for Tolkien. You have my sword! (and my subscription!)
Well said.
He could work on screen in his own show. I'd make it not a drama but more in the style of a relaxing, feel good insight into his every day life with his wife. Like a mockumentary. They could include the visits from the hobbits and Gandalf from his perspective, and what he was up to before and after. As someone who sometimes puts on his chapter to fall to sleep to, it'd be a great show. 😁
I would watch this show unceasingly
Bob Ross shouldn't have worked, but it did.
There's always a place in the world for a palate cleanser.
Rings of Power is garbage. Every single character has been twisted into nothing resembling anything that Tolkien wrote.
I was doing my best to hold on even with all the massive changes and I just cant anymore
It’s garbage when you think of it as an adaptation. I’ve found it more enjoyable when I think of it more like an original series, separate from Tolkien’s works
It kind of highlights Peter Jackson’s knowledge of the books… he had much more knowledge of all the characters, and understood story plots to stay away from (such as Bombadil). This series isn’t even that entertaining, considering that the characters are all idiots. I really don’t see Amazon making a third season after this.
Considering most of the characters in rings of power barely get a glancing blow from Tolkien, I think it's pretty awesome they were able to connect the dots to tell the story of how the rings came to be and how Sauron came to power. It can't be perfect because the characters weren't built but the story was. The one thing fans said was missing from LOTR was Bombadil, so... that's why he was included this time. Hopefully people will stop hating everything extended universe.
Sauron is actually pretty fantastic in TROP.
The rest is bad though…
I love mystery and unexplained whimsy, thus I love the Tom B character in the lore. I was sorely sad to see him, the barrow-downs, the wights, and most of Bree-land, cut from the LOTR films. But this? This is not the way to introduce him to the world at all. As with everything else RoP is doing, they're getting it wrong, wrong, wrong. All RoP does is take beloved characters, places, and events, and crap all over them.
Couldn't agree more. amazon should be ashamed of itself.
I disagree, the show has done alot of things right. It's not perfect but not as bad as you all make it sound. Sauron, numenor, khazad dum, durin, elrond, eregion, and celebrimbor are true to middle earth imo. The harfoots storyline is obviously going to explain the shire. Tolkien didn't write about the 2nd age in detail like he did the 3rd age. So yea they have to interpret alot of things and fill in the blanks. Something is better than nothing.
RoP didn't "fill in the blanks", Amazon just didn't secure the right to The Silmarillion when they got the ones for TLotR so corporate just created fanfic that DIRECTLY CONTRADICTS the original lore. Gamdalf is about 2000 years too early, the rings were made in months, with 7 and 9 done with their final purpose instead of there being 200 years of research and uncountable lesser tings done before forging 16 FOR THE ELVES that he then latter steals and distributes as stated on the poem. The dwarves of Kazha-dum are friends to the elves and Eregion was founded where it is ON PURPOSE for said mithril instead we got angry dwarves stumbling on Durin's Bane quite a few centuries too early. And we got a angst YA Galadriel instead of the wise 6000+ years old elf that is one of the oldest beings alive in middle earth....
@@obsidian7644lmao that’s a terrible take.
“Something is better than nothing”?
Part of the fun of certain aspects of a story is NOT knowing for certain and having that sense of mystery & being open to interpretation.
Also there’s some shit that just
DOESN’T need to be told or explained.
@obsidian7644 There's plenty of enough detail to avoid this. These guys don't care about Tolkien, its just content and the fact they've messed it up so badly should make even the most casual of Tolkien fans feel used. Its like paining over the Mona Lisa. It's a masterpiece, so sure, you could do better? No, no you can't. So don't try.
It's not GOT, it's not Breaking bad, its an 80 year old peice of art.
I love LOTR and all of the Tolkien world, I am not we versed in all areas but I was disappointed in the hobbit being a trilogy, so now even as an Amazon Prime subscriber, I can't bring myself to even consider watching the rings of power, it feels like Amazon is the dark lord and it is torturing us, very much like the elves were, until we become enslaved to them, like orcs.
Rings of Power was much better than the Hobbit trilogy but still nowhere near the original Jackson movies which held close to Tolkien’s original.
😂 ROP is not better than anything lol I can't believe I actually just saw those words strung together.
I always liked the idea that when Elu was singing the song of creation and Morgoth interrupted, Eru took Morgoths song, harmonized it, and created Tom out of the chaos to balance creation. So he's THE note Elu sung to bring Morgoth's song into the entirety instead of just shutting him down.
I like this interpretation. Notably, Tom was in Arda before Morgoth went there: " (Tom) knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless--before the Dark Lord came from Outside." So it fits the idea that Eru sung him into existence preemptively knowing that Morgoth would go there and put his corruption into everything. He would represent a timeless, enduring permanence in the world, unmoved by desires or conflicts of power.
The Rings of Power has Tom as hard and bitter and vague -- nothing like the care-free Tom we know from the books. An odd portrayal, IMO.
Thank you for keeping up this wonderful channel with such well thought content. It gives out such joy, which is much needed en these times!!!
Every aspect in the world of Middle-Earth; the ground, sea, air, trees, courage, fear, love, time, EVERYTHING started as a singularity. Everything is a diffused version of the will of some Valar or a Maiar working under them. Tom Bombadil is one that has not diffused. He has managed to stay pure and true to his original purpose. He seems so powerful because he does not stray from the original Song of Illuvitar.
That's how I like to think of him. He wouldn't EVER deviate to accommodate things going on in the world around him, not to a meaningful extent.
@@frogmand.142 thank you for this. I think you're right.
Yes.
I have always enjoyed the Bombadil character in whatever form it appears. In the ROP he is a informant, different from a teacher and his information is needed to fill the voids that the Stranger has. The Stranger is an empty shell, learning by experiment and some of those do not work. He needs more information to help connect the dots and give direction. I hope Tom appears some more.
Yes they made Gandalf fall to earth with the skills of a new born child meanwhile hes a deity servant of the gods of creation with skills and knowledge beyond the comprehension of people of middle earth and has been for timeless ages. Makes sense to me, screw it. As long as they get to teach us that little diverse hobbit girls can be the real heroes too then who cares about the effort Tolkien made to create his universe.
I know that there's nobody that doesn't realize that's Gandalf at this point.....
He also doesn't care how we interpret him. He's pretty cool with all of it.
The issue with The Rings of Power showing Tom is that they have no clue what they’re doing and going beyond creative liberties BECAUSE they don’t understand the lore. But they don’t care to understand it since the objective is to rewrite and twist it to their own liking rather than staying true to the lore.
In the rings of power they could have made the stranger trying to understand and extract meaning from toms riddles and songs, as he has done so along most other inteactions with characters such as norie. meanwhile we know there is no substance there, its just tom being tom, not really caring if the stranger finds a staff, or his friends. with then the stranger leaving on to continue his quest thinking his drawn some sort of meaning, but heavily confused, and us the audience, knowing it was just Tom. Allows a bit of relevance to the plot, while keeping toms character in tact
Tom was part of the Hobbits' fantastical Journey to Bree that I always look forward to reading. I've not watched any Rings of Power episodes, as I'm happy with the book and my imagination.
May I offer another perspective of him in RoP; being this is the first time we are seeing him and this being in the 2nd Age, maybe he later on takes a more laid back approach when Frodo and the rest meet him? Perhaps, at this point of time, he’s different. I don’t know I just think that you’ve got to expand your mindset when it comes to this stuff. I do however think they could’ve had Tom a bit more cheerful in speech and cadence.
A lot of fans not happy with rings of power? Shocker!
Great video! I, pretty much, could not agree more - with all of it.
I still wish that the Barrow Wights were included in Jackson's movies but the chapter at his house with Goldberry was a psychodellic fever dream and i'm actually glad this wasn't included 😅
Same. The Barrow wights was my favorite chapter from book 1 of Fellowship. But it'd have been difficult for them to keep it in while also leaving out Tom.
After spending a lifetime reading Tolkien, watching all the films several times and streaming the series, it is obvious that Tm Bombadil is Iluvatar. He even said so when he said “ I am the oldest”. He can only be illuvatar. It explains all of his characteristics.
Except Tolkien said he's not
Eru is not the oldest. Eru is Timeless
the problem with Rings of Power they don't understand Tolkien. his world view, his morality, they don't understand anything.
the best example is when he says the line "Many that die deserve life, some that live deserve death." which is a a paraphrase on a line Gandalph says in the book, but in the book it's a call for Pitty for Gollum, while in the series is callous disregard for the lives of the proto-hobbits...not really inline with the characters as depicted by Tolkien.
Tom Bombadil can be depicted on screen, but by people who understand the source material.
It isn't that they don't understand, is that they straight up don't care. They want to take something that is beloved and twist it to their own purposes because they do not have the talent and the imagination to create something on their own. As I once saw someone say, "If you are a fan of something for what it could be and not what it is, then you are not truly a fan."
By source material you mean the one poem about Tom Bombadil, who was physically based on a creepy (most likely) looking child's toy, that once Tolkein got the LoTR going, he then shoe horned into the trilogy? It's funny: Tolkein fans idolize the man to such a degree that they can never consider that Tom may just be Tolkein's ego and pride put to pen. He was Tolkein's first work, a doll he bought for his child and all the memories and thoughts and feelings that brings with it. He didn't want Tom to be forgotten. Doesn't take some pseudo-religious metaphysics to understand having an attachment to your first and never forgetting or wanting it to be forgotten.
@@LackofFaithify There is actually a decent amount written about Tom by Tolkien. All of it obviously ignored by the RoP writers. Much as they ignored everything about the rest of the characters. This is why I consider RoP to be nothing more than bad FanFic.
Your condescending attitude is amusing though.
@@LackofFaithify It doesn't matter what meta reasons motivated WHY Tolkien inserted Bombadil into the LOTR. The sort of speculations about "ego and pride" that you are doing just end up as exercises in projection - maybe that would be YOUR motivation, but we don't really have a way to read Tolkien's mind. So it's useless speculation on your part and in the end, doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what "ego and pride" reasons might have led to the insertion of Tom into the LOTR. All that really matters from a 'credible adaptation' perspective is, "Who is the character as represented in the original work?" And as written, 'in the source material' (LOTR, the poem and Tolkien's letters), he represents fundamentally different from how he was is being presented in ROP.
Yes, that makes it ok for Amazon to shit on it 🤦🏻♂️
I haven't watched much of the rings of power lately, but based on what I've heard through youtubers mainly (a very reliable source for news) I get the sense that the writers are very much writing their own story with their OCs at the heart of it. The book characters on the other hand look like sometimes useful obligations (sometimes not), molded into something to further the new characters' story arcs, or to be there to say things that are meant to invoke the authority and gravitas of Tolkien's other works carry..
I'm sure when they heard of Tom Bombadil for the first time they went around high fiving everyone. Here is a character who is the perfect unknown empty vessel, to casual watchers anyway, who can be molded into whatever or say whatever.
I liked the mannersims and look of Tom in ROP. I didn't find it out of place in the ROP, esp given many other changes. I have found the many groups and comments exploring different characters very useful to extend my understanding, even though I have read the books many times. Bomadil along with TreeBeard are my favourite characters in the books.
I was really disappointed that Jackson left out Tom Bombadil and the Barrow Wights from his movies. Bombadil was the most magical character in a magical story. It would have been such a delightful interlude in the LOTR movies. Almost like what Beorn was in the Hobbit.
A great opening speech from Tom. The actor sounded like someone from a Fifth Form school play mumbling his lines.
He sounds like a Brit who's been living in rural Minnesota for about 8 years.
My theory is that Tolkien was heavily influenced by the events of the two world wars and that he was writing a fantasy version of how wars start and who influences them. Basically an evil quest for power versus those who fight against this evil.
During WW2, Switzerland declared themselves a neutral country. Imagine a secretive quest to overthrow Hitler and his minions while the war was raging, and the quest route takes the small group through Switzerland. Tom Bombadill was the fantasy personification of Switzerland.
I'll respectfully disagree that a "narrative-driven" show couldn't handle Bombadil. Particularly in a serialized format, think of him as a monster of the week: The party is granted an unexpected respite after he helps them, he explains a few things in his own cryptic, detached way, and the main characters have some down time for a bit of exposition (with a good excuse). He can move the plot forward -- even if just a little bit -- without being part of it directly and still maintain the air of "WTF was that?" that characterizes him. And you get a bit of the flavor of the world, as it was intended, _particularly_ the insight that the ring saga is not the only thing that's going on.
In my understanding, Tom is an avatar of the world of Arda itself. I can see there being more than one avatar, more than one Tom Bombadil, each with somewhat different qualities. But, if you meet one of them, they will all know and remember you. Gandalf may have been mentored by a Teacher Tom, but Gandalf knew he could visit Silly Cringe Tom in a certain forest.
Tom represents the real world that has been doing its thing long before us, natural cycles continue on despite us doing our best to ruin everything, and will continue doing its thing long after we're gone. And the day will come when we will be gone. But not Tom.
Tom was a Tolkien children's toy lost during some kind of family picnic, a bearded man with a huge hat and yellow boots.. so, children were sad and Tolkien made Tome lives in his book, happy, singing and gave him a divine lady..
" Harken now and hear us" love Tom in the battle for middle earth of games.
Yes, I agree. Amazon has involved Tom into everything, from training the Dark Wizard, Training Gandolf, yet he has some canon moments, like misunderstanding everything that the Stranger says. To me, he can't understand all of the problems of MIddle Earth, nor does he even want to try. That's part of his charm.
To be fair Tom was a friend of Gandalf, and in the end of Return of the King it says that he stayed with Tom for a while before departing for Valinor. So yea maybe ROP went a little extra with him but I for one don’t mind his seriousness in this series. What they did to Galadriel is another story…
Like you take on Tom . May I add that far from being a “throw away character” he plays a crucial role in the story of the Lord of the Rings.
One of the misunderstood things is that main story of the LoTR is about the Hobbits journey from being timid creatures, dependent on the world of the “Big Folk” to being able to stand on their own and make a significant contribution to that world, which is, in my opinion, Tolkien’s “myth for England”. That is why the exclusion of “The Scourging of the Shire” is also a tragic omission to me, but I digress.
If we take the Hobbits journey view point, Tom by chance (or not … I believe it was Divine Intervention) finds the Hobbits when they strayed from the right path. He rescued Merry and Pippin for Old Man Willow . He gave sanctuary, comfort, rest to these wayward travelers and showed them there is a power unaffected by the prevailing evil of the world, something you covered well. Again rescues them from the Barrow-wights and gets them back on the path to Bree. One other thing Ole Tom does ,that gets missed, is during his rescue from the Barrow-wights mound, he give the Hobbits the Barrow-blades, which by chance (as stated earlier…or not) are of the few weapons effective against the Ring Wraiths. One of which Merry uses to stab the Witch King in the back of the leg allowing Éowyn to destroy him and helped turn the Battle of Pelennor Fields and cost Sauron his key General.
So without Tom, the hobbits get hopelessly lost, trapped in the Barrow mounds without hope of rescue, maybe becoming Barrow-wights themselves and the Witch King lives.
Or as in Jackson films, you skip Ole Tom and there is no valid reason why Merry can pierce the Witch Kings invulnerability and it diminishes his contribution to mere Hobbit foolishness instead of the reason Éowyn was able to defeat him with her sword.
Not bad for a foolish, singing, carefree, “throw away”, misunderstood character!
Agree for a 2-3 movie that hard to pull off.
As for the TRoP version… well trite would be a better name and me thinks they should leave Ole Tom alone for they know not who are what they deal with!
@@palerider7171 Well said! Probably the best take I've seen about 'Ol Tom.
@@moomew64 thanks
According to Tolkien himself, Bombadil serves no other purpose than that of being an adventure for the Hobbits on their journey, he is not an important character in the story. He is not a supernatural being, he is an enigma. Bombadil is not part of the mythology of Middle Earth, he was simply a diversion for the Hobbits, His absence does not affect the outcome.
@@meganhuggins7494 If I am citing your source it reads: In response to a letter, Tolkien described Tom in The Lord of the Rings as "just an invention" and "not an important person - to the narrative", even if "he represents something that I feel important, though I would not be prepared to analyse the feeling precisely. I would not, however, have left him in, if he did not have some kind of function."
Interesting video. thank you, the broken sword.
Nice work dude thanks
To give Justice to the character such as Tom Bombadil, the movie makers should be as careless & uninvolved just like Tom; which mean they shouldn't bother bringing the character on the screen & not trouble him. He is Tom, & that's how he is. Period.
Once I read the books, which admittedly I did after watching the movie, I was sad not to see an interpretation of the character on the big screen, but I got it. His placement in the story just doesn't fit the narrative structure of the movies. It would have slowed down the story in its first part way too much. I think the only way they could have done would have been if the first movie was like 30 minutes longer (and I mean the extended version) and they found a way to place it *after* Rivendell, so like separate momenterally Frodo and the Hobbit from the rest of the Fellowship and have them meet Tom once the stakes have already been enstablished and then have Tom somewhat help them to reunite with Gandalf and the others, maybe even have a brief interaction between Gandalf and Tom....so basically, by heavily deviating from Tolkien's lore anyway just for the sake of including the character in a way that didn't kill the pace of the movie or made it harder to set the stakes.
Best to forget that Rings of Power exists and pretend it is not part of Lord of the Rings because it completely destroys the whole story.
People blaming the show should blame them loser ass books and movies the show doesn't have much to go off of lmao yall losers cry to damn much u don't like the show why watch it
I'm gonna continue to watch your videos even though I don't like them
Am I stupid or is the show stupid
@@TomisaLami Yup.
Stfu, and just let people enjoy the show ya nerd. It amazes me that yall try to gatekeep what can be in this fictional world and who's allowed in it. You are shitty people for that.
fr they made him a teacher instead of idgaf dude jumping around
I like the actor they chose, but Tom's entire character in the books was his inscrutability. Now he's just another positive character. They could have included him, but he should have been frustratingly unperturbed by the events around him.
I couldn't agree more. I recently tried to explain this exact issue I had with it to my brother. You have vocalized it better than I did however and will be forwarding this to him. Lol He has not watched season 2, but we're both Tolkien lovers and both very disappointed in the rings of power and their butchering of his story thus far.
Tom Bombadil in Fellowship of the Ring is Tom Bombadil in the late Third Age. Tom Bombadil in the Rings of Power is Tom Bombadil in the Second Age. Thousands of years separate the two ages.
Which with a character like Bombadil would make absolutely no difference. He is not mortal, and the passage of time does not affect him like he is a mortal.
Although Tolkien isolates Tom from these struggles, giving the hobbits the daggers from the mounds shows that he is somehow involved in these events. If Tom were absolutely isolated in Middle-earth affairs as claimed in the video, he would not even help the Hobbits, but with this initiative he has become involved to a certain extent. Just as Tolkien left his involvement in the story just right, the series did what the movies could not do with Tom by including him in the theoretical-fictional story in the script.
They could have just used him and his realm as a safe point, like he was in the books. Someone is chased by orks (or what have you), arrives within the bounds of Tom's realm in the nick of time and they are immediately safe and can rest, until they have to continue their journey. Surely nothing and no one could hurt you while you're in Tom's care
I'm glad you focus on the term whimsy. All fantasy comes down to those three things, Worldbuilding, wonder and whimsy. Whimsy used to be a bigger part of fantasy because in the pre digital age it was very hard to describe a truly alien mind or culture without it. but whimsy suffers in adaptation more than the other two elements do. Jackson rightly or wrongly chose worldbuilding and wonder over whimsy nearly every time in the Lotr trilogy.
Ropey largely does the same. They're both right to do so. But Tom Bombadil is all about the whimsical element of lotr. He has no business being in an adaptation that has given up whimsy.
Interestingly the pre Jackson lotr fandom was very into whimsy and Tom was such a fan favourite that Jackson had to really defend taking him out.
That's not only not the Tom Bombadil we know, 'the Stranger' is also not any of the Istari we know.
It's not surprising that they can't figure out what to do with Tom. The problem is modern audiences are used to things being 100% plot, where everything is a one dimensional, highly detailed, purposive, coherent unity. They want LOTR to be another marvel or star wars. There's no appreciation for the poetic; which is a shame, as Tolkien's work is half poetry.
An adaption would need to commit to a theory about him and then use that to introduce the bigger picture. For example Tom = Aule incarnation. Then do the creation of the universe from The Silmarillion with Aule and show a preincarnated Gandalf and Balrogs. But then half the fanbase would get annoyed about committing to a theory. But ultimately that is Tom's role - to show there is a bigger picture, that there are things in the universe more powerful than Sauron.
Why leave out the Scouring of the Shire is also a question. A lot of attention should be paid to that forgotten chapter, especially these days.
I think you can also say it doesn’t matter what Tom’s purpose in the novels was. They can use him and update him however they want for their purposes. Is it interesting and fun in the end is the only thing that reality matters.
I think you said it perfectly, Tom is nature personified. Does Middle Earth care about the ring? When it lay at the bottom of the river, did it try to push it out to the sea? It is of no consequence.
It has to have been said many times before … but that common image is 100% Jack Black. He’d have to play him on that respect. Lol
I said this to my brother. It gives me huge Jack Black vibes, or Dom Jolly
That was cool when Sensai Bombadil had Gandalf wax on wax off his Lambo to train him how to staff wield and block orc attacks.
Inside story is Tolkien's wife wrote the Tom B. chapter and created Tom and the Lady herself. Tolkien liked it so well that he just edited it a bit to fit the big picture, then left it alone and they never spoke about it to the public. It's funny actually.
Either his wife, or one of his high profile author friends* that is.
I think Bombadil was the first 'experiment' created by Eru Iluvatar .. the first .. before all else in middle earth. As Eru and the Ainur used 'music' to create, for good or ill, Bombadil could master nature using music. Old man willow, the barrow wights, the one ring .. none could master the song of Bombadil. As for 'The Rings of Power' !!!! The spirit of Melkor and his clamorous distorted drone still lives!!!
The careless way in which they added him fits the careless way in which they put the show together. It’s a grand and epic storyline that’s both disjointed and illogical that is filled with unlikable characters who show up when the plot needs them to and who find what the plot needs them to find to advance a plot that doesn’t seem to know how to get to the end.
Im glad that brought Tom into the series, but i wish they had kept his more colorful demeanor.
I also appreciate how the Broken Sword is able to express their opinion without being an asshole. I personally have enjoyed season 2 after a mixed and shaky season 1. There are still things i would change but im overall enjoying the show.
I LIKE the Rings Of Power. It gives context to LOTR and is meant to stand separately as a What IF. As there are no references to the previous age when the Rings were created, ROP is a fairly good idea of what Might have happened not What DID happen. It reminds me more of the old 70's animated LOTR rather than the live one.
I have mixed feelings about it. He’s certainly not book Tom, but he does have a different sort of appeal. But even that didn’t get a chance to shine. I feel like at this point, the Legendarium has sort of become a zombie of a franchise. It was great when it was alive (when Tolkien creating it and sharing it with us), but now people refuse to let it rest, and they have begun to see it decaying
I think the wizard that shrek and aurthur met is exactly how I envision tom. Loopy, care free and powerful
it feels like the ROP version of bombadil is the incarnation of eru himself
Bombadil is a spirit and a manifestation of the land and the forest. Bombadil has no real place in Tolkiens' theology because he was originally an independent kids' story, and he was brought in to the LOTR when Tolkien thought he was writing a sequel to the Hobbit. After LOTR became more serious, Bombadil STAYED in simply because Tolkien liked him. There was no hidden agenda, and he adds nothing to the story beyond fun adventure. Dropping him from the movie was a no-brainer.
I feel they toned him down to make him fit but it's kind of hilarious when they switch to the Stoor who is more whimsical than Tom in the very next scene, at that point why not go all out.
Okay I feel like this is one of those things that people are taking to far.. I have my issues with the ROP but Tom is absolutely not one of them! Tom was great in my opinion he didn’t actually do anything he just helped guide Gandalf. In the books he was involved and even saved Frodo! Also Tom is known to spend lots of time with Gandalf and therefore likely guiding him! Yes Tom is shown not to “care” about what happens in the world but I see that as more of a it’s not his place or purpose to metal in the affairs of the world other than guiding others tasks the secret flame has given him!
To me he's kinda a Buddha figure. I know Tolkien didn't intent that or anything but that's how I view him. He's above suffering and is compassionate and wise. I know it wouldn't have fit the films but I do think there is a place for him in RoP, sadly it wasn't done well and they blew a great opportunity.
Consider that Isildur is alive during the show. This means Sauron's entire rise to power, rule, and defeat all happen within one lifetime. Wow, dangerous Dark Lord indeed. Retconning Tom Bombadil into an active character is the least of the show's problems. We really shouldn't concern ourselves with bad fan fiction.
@@cassieudy5718 remember Isildor is a Neumanorian and had a much longer lifespan than a single regular human life.
Tom was always for me a personification of Illuvatar himself in middle earth in a mythological level and a bit of 4th wall breaking in a literary level , he has the power and could solve everything at once and that why he has to not be involved or interested because this would be the end of any adventure. The same philosophy as if every prayer was to be granted no human would try on anything his mysterious attitude is a reminder of philosophical questions about religions, God , prayer and stays mysterious because none knows the answers and Tolkien as a religious man knew that. The whole |Tom Bombadil part is to me deeply philosophical but written in a lighthearted fairytale manner , but all this philosophical stuff are uncashable so now they did him as an average wizard who is part of the plot. I'm not watching rings of power neither any other fantasy series cause they are not escapism anymore they don't feel otherworldly no matter how fancy the costumes/sceneries are.
Nailed it.
Bombadil almost by definition is mysterious and undefinable and his concerns are very specific and local. If you attempt to define him either as a wizard tutor or anything else, you've ruined him.
Anyone wants to bet that in the end ROP’s Tim Bambidull will turn to Grand-Elf and say “Now it’s time Tom went gather some moss, and you go be the rolling stone” 😂
Rings of Power has ruined so many of Tolkien's characters, that most fans have turned their backs on this mess.
Opinion (cause everyone has one lol): Tom Bombadil is (of course) meant to be a PARADOX. He is the embodiment of the Tao. He legitimately has ASPECTS of everything we always attribute to him from "Eru" to "Nature" because he IS all these things. He REFLECTS aspects of the HIGHEST ORDER of Vibration...He embodies the Song. He IS the sentient 'base program' the code by which Eru writes. Yet he is NOT Eru or the lesser entities. He is UNIQUE in that he is tied to the Soul of the World. Should it and civilization fall it means nothing in the LARGE scheme of things. He is the mechanism that can set it all back in balance. Also: To have him guide the one that will prove to be the ONLY faithful Istari (Gandalf) makes sense. Its not a matter of Bombadil being greater or lesser than anyone...he simply IS. (My two cents)
Y'all should check out The Bound and The Broken by Ryan Cahill! As Tolkien's biggest fan, I loved them!
Just make believe that Tom is a Watcher from Marvel comics and in Rings of Power he interferes with middle earth in the Second age and didn’t really help but made it worse maybe that’s why in the third age he choose not to really interfere anymore
I want to see an animated LotR adaptation . 6 films, 3 hours each. Glorfindel, Tom, the Scouring, let's go. Tom in RoP was not great. I think Rory Kinnear was a decent choice to play Tom, but there were too many other factors working against his portrayal... like, the show being awful, for instance.
Agreed 6 three hour films that are book accurate would be so good. As well as the suggestion you made it the characters should be book accurate too.
But in the books doesn't it say that Gandalf knew Tom? In the Rings of Power, Tom looks and acts exactly as I remember him in the books.
Tom bombadil is the first ever isekaid character stuck in middle earth not his world has the luxury of ignoring the events of middle earth largely just living his best life in peace with his wife whom he met here in middle earth
He could be a true neutrual allignment. The maker is basing his believes about tom about the very little that is written about him. The ROP can him make any way they seem fit while still not really deminish his character
I love seeing a high production value middle earth series it's not cannon and just abit of fun. But it is really hard to not be frustrated with what they have done. I understand change for the sake of adaptation from book to film. But changing something just for the sake of change is really bad.
This show is absolutely painful to get through, I wish people in positions as this would call it out more. Cheers
I think Tom is the physycal representation of the spirit of Middle Earth itself.
He is somewhat relevant, we can deduce it from the book which says that after the war of the ring, Gandalf says he will come to him for they have many things to talk about..I am guessing Gandalf wouldn't waste his last dayes in middle earth just to sing and smoke with dear Ole Tom...would he?
I think Toms decisions to not partake in any wars saved the entire planet.... his power would be far exceeding morgoth, for he is the embodiment of Eluvitar, as are everyone else at a lower state. He knew that he can not partake, just like gandalf knew he shouldn't use his power it would make fighting for protection a pradox as it would destroy everything, thus why the istari came to middl eeart with limited powers.
Honestly he is one of the better parts of the show, but that's not really saying anything. It's like saying which ant eating you when you are buried in the sand of the desert is doing the best job, it all hurts and you don't want to go through it anyway.
I was half expecting Elrond to be crying the dwarfs didn't come but some blue coated misfit weirdo skipping over the ridge singing and leading an ent army. Then he just leaves, he just vanishes and Elrond is like... wtf just happened?
ya, what Peter said at the end.
You missed a descriptive quote that might cover this
My issue is with the amount of power this character wields. I have not read the books and cant really say i know much about him. Honestly, though. How much did he actually do in the series? Think about it. He does not intervene in any way. He "guides" gandalf (if you can even call it that) by talking in riddles and gandalf finds out for himself. Granted, He does mention that it is gandalfs destiny to fight sauron.
I’m wondering if they are taking Tom and the Stranger and making them into the Blue Wizards.
Tom already said he's been here before the sun. The episode was straight up called "Eldest" because it was about Tom.
He literally can't be a blue wizard. The Stranger and the Dark Wizard can.