Tom wins the battle, and not with some traditional use of force, he simply brings life with him to the battle. Sauron grabs Tom and in victory pulls him close, Top puts an acorn inside sauron's helmet, Tom makes the acorn grow inside sauron's armor, and in a moment sauron is trapped forever inside a tree. fight over. no great show of violence, just life eternal winning against the upstart.
Tom would just be dancing and singing with Sauron unable to catch him. Sauron, exhausted, falls to his knees. Goldberry sneaks up behind him and knifes him. Tom had no idea he was even in a fight
I can’t picture Golberry knifing anybody. How about this: Tom leads Sauron to the banks of the Withywindle, where a sudden drowsiness descends upon the dark lord’s mind. Then, much like Melkor under Luthein’s spell, he topples to the ground with a crash. A gap opens in the ancient, gnarled willow nearby, and the roots draw him in. The gap shuts with a snap, and Bombadil skips away merrily to pick some water-lilies.
Great video, thank you for this long awaited vs video. I am fascinated by Tom, while I hear and understand Gandalf’s argument for dismissing Tom, let us consider that Sauron was in fact bested in duels before, in hand to hand battle with Huan for example. Nearly bested by Finrod Felagund in a battle of songs and spells, finally, he was severely wounded by Gil-Galad in their epic fight. So Sauron is not unbeatable whether in physical or metaphysical forms he can be bested. I do think Tom could route him, defeat him, embarrass him even, this said, I don’t think of Tom of as general or warrior who would destroy Sauron, rather he would defend, route him off and that’s it. Tom wouldn’t much care about pursuing this evil, I think that’s what Gandalf meant, that in the end, it needs to be the peoples of middle earth banning together to defeat Sauron and keeping the hope and beauty of songs, valleys, goodwill alive.
Opinion! Sauron would entreat with Iarwain. He knows this is an ancient and superior foe, and persuasion is Sauron's greatest tool. He used Palantir to deceive Saruman and Denethor. Subverted them, rather than fighting openly. He might leave Tom in his little enclave, ruling all beyond. But then he would parlay, and perhaps using the ring, take a form, pleasing and innocent. Tom would see through this, of course. He would know it is falsehood, but not understand or care enough and be led into whatever trap Sauron, as Mairon the admirable Maiar, would conceive. Tom would be destroyed, or trapped, and Goldberry sacrificed or perverted.
It is like Tom Bombardil is a creature from a parallel world, not a product of Eru Iluvatar's creation. And just in Middle Earth as a guest to observe.
How would the fight go? Very tragically for Tom and Goldberry. My fanfic-like concept is that Sauron, in possession of the One Ring, and having defeated the Wizards and everyone else, would finally turn his eyes towards his last nemesis. He would burn and poison the lands and rivers around the Old Forest. The first to sicken and then die would be Goldberry as the rivers and weather no longer allow her to be who she is (a spirit of the rivers and weather, mainly). Tom would be griefstricken and find little left in the world for himself. He would not be the carefree spirit of the forest he once was, and his powers would wane and then Sauron's forces would raise the Old Forest to the ground.
Tom is immune to Sauron. He is ageless, timeless, and care free. He is a being owing nothing to anybody but Eru. He would exist long after Sauron was cast into the void and Ea was dust.
I think the real question is if there is anything that could stop Tom Bombadil from walking into Mordor? If he was convinced of the need he could have just walked right up to Mt. Doom and thrown the ring in himself. That would have ended Sauron. However their was probably nothing that could have caused Tom to do that... unless all the Ents and other creatures of Middle Earth asked him. As he weighed what do due the final voice who asks him to act is Goldberry herself. Therefore Tom takes up the quest guided by Gandalf.
Tom is the scariest character because he's so mysterious and unconcerned with everything. With his insane power levels and being older than basically everything in Toilkens world makes him weirdly terrifying...
Thanks for making this wonderful video, and adding the great artwork and crediting the artists! It’s a very interesting question, and given the fact that the ring had no effect on him tells me that Sauron wouldn’t either. It’s like he lives on Middle-earth as a visitor without any of the evils or wills of the natural inhabitants having any influence on him whatsoever. I think if Sauron tried to attack him, he could shrink him in the palm of his hand, and Sauron would shout back in a tiny voice, hey, what’s the big idea, and Tom would just flick him back to Mordor with his forefinger 😂
Scene opens with Sauron stepping into Tom's house. Tom comes in dancing and singing unexpectedly from behind Sauron and pats him on the back. Sauron readies for battle. Tom smiles and continues to sing. Seen fades and returns to show Sauron singing and dancing with Tom. Sauron begins shaking and dissolves into the darkness. Tom continues to sing and dance, unaware Sauron is gone.
I've always interpreted Bombadil as the personification of nature - he does not turn invisible just as if you put the ring on a branch, it would not turn invisible I've thought that Bombadil restricts himself to the old forest as being Tolkien's message about nature being much smaller and limited as it was in the past - remember Treebeard once mentioned a squirrel could once jump from tree to tree from the sea to.. I don't remember where specifically, but far is my point. Given this is the third age, that is what I understand the limiting factor due to the rise of dwarves and men and orcs even, cutting down nature to fuel their lives Can't be the truth, but I like to think about it
I might be totally wrong, but I always got the feeling that Tom Bombadil showed up in the beginning of LOTR because Tolkien was still figuring out what the story was going to be in Book 1. I don't know what Tolkien's writing process was like, but it is possible he did not have everything plotted out ahead of time.
The most common belief of Tom Bombadil is that he is to the light what Ungoliant is to the dark. Ungoliant was so strong with the darkness that she was able to consume even a Valar (Melkor/Morgoth) in the darkness to such an extent that it created an exceptional level of fear in a literal God. I think that in the same way, Tom is so powerful with the light that he could consume Sauron in so much light that Sauron would repent his past sins and return to the side of good (a Tolkien version of Darth Vader’s redemption). For a different theory, i also believe that he could be the narrator. The Silmarilon is written in a way that its a story being told by a great storyteller, he’s second only to Iluvatar and is telling the story of Iluvatar to the people unable to comprehend the words of Iluvatar, as translator of history for all times.
Tom is like a nymph. A nymph is the personification of the beauty of a place. And Tom is the personification of the beauty of all of Middle Earth. An Uber nymph lol
I'm going to say this, within his domain I don't believe that there's a single thing that Sauron could do to either, Tom, Goldberry or the land itself. However I also believe that he is aware of this and would not ever issue any form of direct challenge to him, for he is master. However I equally think that he is aware that he doesn't have to challenge Tom in order to win the day, knowing that once his Influence is sufficiently spread whatever powers that Tom is capable of wielding and perhaps himself entirely would either away and along with him the peaceful utopia of story and song that is his home and hearth.
Tom would have redeemed Middle Earth from under Sauron's feet. He would simply unmake Mordor and restore the Orcs into Elvin form. Most likely, after Sauron fell, he did so off the stage. Whether the restored Orcs would go to the West or take another form ( fairies or men) can be left to the imagination.
I would prefer the fight to be via a Palantíri instead of a physical fight. Since both characters are not known for the great physical prowess, but for their power of will. (Sauron was before he went to middle earth even known that he sucks at fighting.) This type of fight would also make it fair in terms of location, as both characters represent fundamental aspects that are also defined in their lands. So what I think that the Palantíri contest would result into: a horrible stalemate as both wills are immeasurably strong but neither Tom could convince Sauron of the beauty of the peaceful freedom, nor could Sauron convince/dominate Tom's mind. (If this would be the main storyline, then Eru Ilúvatar would shift the balance as insinuated in several points throughout the story.)
I believe Tom is Eru Ilúvatar himself, but being so all powerful can disguise himself so that noone can see who he is. Even the valar are unable to see past how he looks and acts and judge him more incompetent than they can realise. He is also so far above them he doesn't see good and evil as clearly defined. He also sings alot just as Eru Ilúvatar did
The answer is already in the Council of Elrond chapter of the Fellowship of the Ring. At least, this is the answer from the perspective of some Elven leaders and possibly also Gandalf. TB loses. When all else falls, TB will fall last as he was first, then darkness comes. If Sauron can defeat and overcome Arda itself, then TB, as the representation of Arda, loses.
Bombadil, because Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow, Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow. None has ever caught him yet, for Tom, he is the Master: His songs are stronger songs, and his feet are faster.
Tolkien created the character of Tom Bombadil I think as an aspect of Christianity where believers question why all powerful God allows evil and suffering to continue, Evil has no effect on Tom, but Tom does not explain how to over come Sauron, the ring or Mordor. All power seems isolated to Heaven as Tom is to his own lands.Jesus beats death on the Cross, but the full power of that defeat seems illusive.
...I'm actually not so sure about this conclusion, even if Tolkien's own scenarios especially at the council in Rivendell and Gandalfs elaborations there hint to this. Why? Because Tolkien wrote the whole epos with the intention of eventually the 'good' will have to win, and 'some force will make sure that evil doesn't'. One example: when Frodo comments on Gandalf's story of Bilbo finding the ring, and wouldn't it have been more convenient, if the ring tries to get back to his master, if an ork would have found it, Gandalf replies, that this is no laughing matter, but its a very hopeful sign, as if something (some good force) wanted Bilbo to find it. There are many such turns in the story, almost ridiculously many... from the black rider missing Frodo at Bag End just about, Frodo escaping at Weathertop the morgul knife's intention of piercing his heart and making him another servant of the enemy, Gandalf almost lost in the fight with the Balrog gets revived and sent back until his task is done (by whom?) ...through many more such-like miraculous turns to the final countdown, when Frodo is about to fail, even Gollum, the most unlikely hero at that moment, makes sure (unintentionally of course) that the ring gets destroyed... it does have a religious touch here for me, where God would stop the evil before it destroys the world. Now: this is not evidence that Tom would have saved the world, but of that the higher forces wouldn't have allowed, that also he in the end falls, which closes the Valar circle for me: with Sauron on the evil side and Tom on the good - yet both eventually only puppets in the wake of the unfolding drama, with no final power (given) to destroy creation. Sauron can't destroy the world, and Tom can't save it (by himself), but a higher force, maker of both, will make sure, that the spiel of good and bad continues.
The planet...that world is a planet... I wonder if Tolkien gave or wrote any hint about what is there to the east, where the continent ends because obviously has to end... And the shape of the continent we know and almost all action is happening, some claim that it looks like Europe, but without the water that separates Britain from mainland Europe... I don't know if there is any merit in that... The same said something like Mordor is where Turkey is and had more or less that shape...
I believe it would depend on a lot of variables! To me tom bombadil is the very embodiment of arda itself as ungoliant is the embodiment of the void. If sauron regained the ring he would destroy all the races first then begin destroying the world itself and as Tolkien wrote tom would be the last thing to fall. I’d say as tom speaks of having greater power and lands in the past that he was severely weakened from his full might by the corruption melkor wrought on middle earth itself. Tom doesn’t have the power to fight beyond his realm where his remaining power is concentrated but if sauron was to try and fight him there with or without the ring with everything else alive and unmarred he would lose! Sauron though powerful is simply a maiar and tom being the embodiment of arda was created by eru illuvitar, all the valar including melkor, and all the maiar including sauron himself combined, so sauron would be fighting way above his weight class! Sauron would need to defeat tom by a war of attrition by destroying all other life first! Sauron would eventually regain the ring even from tom as Gandalf said he would keep it if all the peoples of the free folk begged him but would eventually forget about it and loose it. But in a straight up fight tom bombadil wipes the floor with sauron in seconds!
I don't think a fight is possible. Bombadil is not particularly concerned about the ring other than it being a sharp object, and I don't know that he can be enlisted in a war. Give him the ring he'd probably just lose it. It's not his concern. If attacked by Sauron I think bombadil would survive, but that's not the same as winning the war.
How does a flower fight fire? She lets itself get burned, lets the fire pass and only regrows even stronger... I think Bombadil ist truly immortal, meaning even If Sauron used all His power to hurt Bombadil, Tom would just take it all head on, all the while laughing and singing. To the Point that Sauron really starts to fear him and then just turned away, knowing that there are things life itself that are truly eternal. So Bombadil would mentally win this match, because he wouldnt even be trying to win the fight physically because he doesnt want or need to. His Heart ist too big, to hurt a confused fallen Angel that has lost its way...
I mean just Look at Sauron for what He truly is... A fallen Spirit that is trapped in a coffin Made of Iron and fire. I think Tom could still see the life at the core of Sauron and would pitty him for falling so low.
I’m not an expert or Tolkien aficionado, but imho Tom is a manifestation of Eru. Why else wouldn’t the ring have no effect. He’s beyond the physical world, but part of it for some reason. Perhaps to be an example.
I wonder if Tom could actually like lose his cool and become angered. Maybe he has a deep ancient power lurking inside that could be released when he is in real danger. I mean he probably never really had in encounters with many Evil characters.
Tom Bombadil is something similar to a god. Sometimes feel pity for mortals. Sometimes it just ignore them. And sometimes just smash what is in its path even when it doesn't get knowledge about it. He just don't give a shit!
If Tom was the essence of nature, then Goldberry was the balance that nature always seeks. Nature in balance is a formidable force. The fundamental forces in nature are chaos and order, always in ebb and flow. Order is borne of Ultimate chaos, Ultimate order begets chaos, and all the mix in between. So, even if sauron realized his quest of Ultimate and ravaged Tom, Tom is the penultimate result of the Ultimate.
I think Tom is old enough to have seen the rise and fall of both Melkor and Sauron once already. If born of the Music of Creation he is aware of the Eru's final act and it's outcome and therefore has little concern over the tribulations of those who must play their roles in the game of Fate.
If it wasn't for Tom, The fellowship would never have happened, The journey would have ended before it began. Tom saved the 4 hobbits and also equipped them with the weapons they would need. That to me indicates he was aware of his part and did what was required to achieve the end result. Tom exists out of time and can see what the future holds.
Certainly Bombadils choice of weapons given to Merry and Pippin seems to have played an exact part to first cripple and lead to the destruction of the Witch King at the battle of Pelenor fields. So I am leaning your way to agree.
A fight between Sauron and Tom seems like an echo of Morgoth vs. Ungoliant, the dark twin of Tom thematically, a being without explanation or defined status. While her fate is often assumed to be an unending consumption ending in herself, Tom is consumed by nothing. I think Sauron would attempt to fight him but find that all efforts were in vain. He would never be able to force a final conflict, and the land Tom chose to hold would forever remain a pocket of purity and reminder to Sauron of his limits. Like Varda placing the Sickle above Utumno to always remind Melkor she and the Valar were there opposing him.
Tom is obviously older than Sauron and likely of a higher order of creation than the Maia and i totally disagree with the videos conclusion...i don't think any fight would happen between them because even with the ring Sauron would have no power over him of course Tom wouldn't fight because that's his nature but i also believe that ultimately Sauron would lose because he cant beat Tom and because of HIS(Sauron)nature he must beat him...
@@wildfire160 Older as in having the oldest physical existence of any creature, yes. But the Ainur (including Sauron) existed as spirits prior to the creation of Arda and physical reality as a whole. Sauron didn’t get his physical manifestation until after he helped the heavenly host bring the very concept of ‘being’ into being, but that’s just the point. Tom might be the soul of Arda and might be comparable or even greater in strength to Manwe himself, but he is surely a product of the great music like the Elves and Ents and as such can’t be older than a member of the Ainur. In terms of orders of creation, that’s definitely up for debate. The comparison with Ungoliant is one I’ve liked. It’s known that Melkor’s discord manifested many dark creatures in the Void, so perhaps those loyal to Eru’s original music were responsible for weaving Tom into creation by how fiercely they sang in reprisal.
"Could that power be defied by Bombadil alone? I think not. I think that in the end, if all else is conquered, Bombadil will fall, Last as he was First; and then Night will come.’ ‘I know little of Iarwain save the name,’ said Galdor; ‘but Glorfindel, I think, is right. Power to defy our Enemy is not in him, unless such power is in the earth itself. And yet we see that Sauron can torture and destroy the very hills."
The key question then is if that power is within the earth itself. I'd generally say not to a degree that could stop Sauron. However, I do consider the head from a beheaded statue of a king of old that is crowned by flowers as it lay on the ground being noted by Sam as an act of defiance against Sauron to be important when thinking about Tom. I think there are things that exist that may have been able to resist Sauron even if he recovered the one ring. These things might be on the edge of Sauron's empire, but his empire probably would not be 100% total even had won the War of the Ring (or a 100% victory would have taken a very long time to achieve).
Don't forget this is spoken from the point of view of elves. Who may not understand much of the true might of the Maia and Vala. Certainly not of an eccentric being as Tom. This is probably a literary excuse for keeping Tom out of the story more than an accurate commentary on his capability.
Yeah except that quote offers nothing but to highlight the speculative shortsightedness of the elves when it comes to pondering all things that are above them. If the elves are staking their chips on the side of Sauron, then most likely it would be Tom taking the W.
I don't think it would be possible to eliminate all good on Middle-earth anymore than it would to eliminate all bad. The worst it would get would be a tiny patch of land that Tom Bombadil would somehow maintain as a golden fiefdom. Sauron vetching and grinding his teeth over the fact that he cannot dominate completely everything.
The real question of the elves discussing Bombadil's power is do they really know what he's capable of, or are they merely speculating? I think the most telling part is that he really wouldn't care enough about it to do anything.
Interesting. I’d never thought of that but it makes sense. We assume that a Maia such as Gandalf or immortals such as Elrond know more about Tom than we do, but perhaps not enough. Perhaps Tom’s abilities are to Gandalf what Gandalf’s are to Frodo making TB’s abilities being out of the council’s realm of consciousness.
Not until he, himself, is directly affected. Then it would be a titanic battle. But who would win? Between Tom with zero assistance and Sauron with all his allies and vassals? In the end, even Tom cannot be in all places at once. He can only preserve that which is within his presence.
Tom is the spirit of nature, the Green Man, or as he is often called in the English Midlands 'The Lad in the Lane'. He simply negates the industrial might of Sauron. Nature will prevail .... beyond the Age on Man. He was there at The Big Bang of Tolkien's cosmology.
Ungoliant's power grew enormously after she consumed the light of the Two Trees as well as the vats of liquid light that existed around the base of the Trees. It wasn't until after that point that Morgoth began to be afraid of her.
Another thing to add is Melkor was HEAVILY weakend having spread most of his power across the vast lands and array of entitiys so he wasn't even half strength.
How would such a fight occur? I’d take a page from the Silmarillion where Sauron battles Finrod in songs of power. It would not be a physical fight but of words; a Tolkien rap battle, as it were. It would surely be epic.
Tom made a little magical barrier around his land and hid from Sauron, waiting for better days. So, if he could win or even fight, why make a tiny little haven and hide... "“Say rather that the Ring has no power over him. He is his own master. But he cannot alter the Ring itself, nor break its power over others. And now he is withdrawn into a little land, within bounds that he has set, though none can see them, waiting perhaps for a change of days, and he will not step beyond them.”
"Could that power be defied by Bombadil alone? I think not. I think that in the end, if all else is conquered, Bombadil will fall, Last as he was First; and then Night will come.’ ‘I know little of Iarwain save the name,’ said Galdor; ‘but Glorfindel, I think, is right. Power to defy our Enemy is not in him, unless such power is in the earth itself. And yet we see that Sauron can torture and destroy the very hills" - The council of Elrond
i dont think he was hiding at all. he just didn't care. sauron was irrelevant to him. he probably thought he can kick saurons butt any time if he wanted to. but he was just lazy and didn't care , i guess
I’m thinking there could be a stand alone movie of the hobbits entering the old forest up to Tom escorting them to the boundary of his land. On another note, one of those images of Tom certainly had Jack Black’s eye sparkle and grin
Sauron begins with a stomping snarling approach and Bombadil, floating like a butterfly, dances in and out like dappled sunshine through the trees on a breezy day. Sauron roars in anger and Tom mockingly sings in falsetto, proving that there is no note or theme outside the song of Elendil. Sauron swings and Bombadil bounces away, never in the place you saw him last, a moment later he's touching Sauron on the back with a stick, then ducking the swing and rolling away like a tumbleweed. Sauron is looking old and tired, he has no power to harm Tom, he drops the mace and grabs Bombadil with both hands, but Tom just kisses him on the forehead! Sauron reels back like he's been struck, but he can't seem to let go of Tom, the blue coat is just too spectacular to release! Tom seems to follow Sauron's step back, but then it's obvious, TOM IS LEADING THE DANCE! Sauron flops like a rag doll in Tom's mad dance, but his feet keep the time quite nicely, like those massive armored greaves weigh nothing at all! The song swells and drifts, the dance whirls and bounces, the grass and the birds and the dappled sunlight all bouncing in time! ...and then it's over, shockingly quiet. Sauron does a ludicrous walk-of-shame with his boots in one hand, limping ever-so-slightly away from Tom's beaming smile. The army of orcs and monsters are quiet, not knowing how to react to the silliest thing they've ever seen. Sauron slinks over the horizon, muttering to himself, "Fuck that guy and his stupid yellow boots..."
Tom is an aspect of creation itself. And with that in mind has a direct correlation and link to Eru Ilúvatar and has all the same powers and gifts associated with him. So it wouldn't even be a battle. Tom would just imagine Sauron out of existence. His powers are so far beyond Sauron and even Morgoth that it can't even be fathomed!
Best answer so far! The final sentence of your comment is the most pertinent, and a concept that most folks forget. Frightened as Morgoth was of Ungoliant, he would be ten thousand times more frightened of Tom Bombadil, since Tom could actually compass Morgoth's vanishing into nothingness, as easily as flowing water vanquishes a flame.
Apologies, but where does this information come from? There is no text that I can find that describes Tom ever being related to Eru Ilúvatar. I am certain he does NOT have the powers of Eru. Melkor is through and through, by word of text by Tolkien himself, the most powerful being aside from Eru, in his works. Tom would be a miniscule thing to the Ainur in their true beings and state. Eru is the only entity that can unmake the Ainur, Tom does not have this power.
Well said, or to put it another way, Sauron wouldn't even think about confronting him directly. Tom is as close to a personification of a god as we get.
His chorus says no one has caught him because his songs are stronger and his feet are faster. Therefore, if Sauron attacked Tom, I think he would be able to defend himself long enough to escape to a different, more sheltered part of Middle Earth. If there were no longer any uncorrupted lands, Tom Bombadil would possibly die because his power is from the earth, but he probably would escape across the sea to Valinor. He couldn't defeat Sauron, but I don't think Sauron could defeat him.
It's been gone over and theorized. In the book they even discussed Tom bombadil taking the ring. When it comes to power sauron cannot beat Tom bombadil by himself. It's more of sending unending amount of minions until his power is spent is how it would really go. Sauron doesn't have to beat bombadil quickly, he just has to beat him.
Based on that chorus… Tom very well may be a physical manifestation of Eru himself. His songs are better, he is the master. The first to arrive. The ring not affecting him… maybe he is Eru embodied so he may enjoy his creation.
@@seanbutler2291 So Sauron can't beat Tom himself but his minions can? Makes total sense. Just because Tom is not affected by the Ring doesn't give him a pedastal over Sauron, since Sauron has far more abilities than just corruption.
I think the issue wasn't that Tom Bombadil wasn't strong enough to challenge Sauron, but that he was not interested in leaving his self-imposed boundaries. Tom was the master of his own lands. The council believed that he would be conquered last. To me this implied Tom was stronger. He was dismissed as a possible guardian of the ring due to a perceived irresponsible nature.
Tom would have beaten Sauron, Sarumon, Melkor, Darth Vader, The Balrog, and Smaug in one fight. You just can't stop his singing. Especially, if he sings "Indian Love Call" (the Slim Whitman song). Remember, that song killed the Martians in Mars Attacks.
This was in one context. Are Bilbo and Frodo able to resist Sauron's presence and raw power just because they can resist the Ring? No. Sauron had already shown himself to be a more formidable power than Tom. Tom was immune to the Ring's effects, but this has little barring to an actual fight between demiurgic beings. Of which Tom has shown to be not a demiurgic being while Sauron has.
@@taelorpickel2830Bilbo and Frodo *resist* Sauron, Tom is described as the ring "having NO power over him", which isn't quite the same as "having power but it being resisted*
So they basically cancel each other out... What do you think about a raw fist fight between the two? No magic. Not armies. Just throwing down, playground rules...
I think it's possible that Tom could very well be a literary representation of Tolkien himself. Maybe not an exact representation of who Tolkien was but a projection of what Tolkien wished to be.
I would disagree. Tolkein was obsessed with pipe smoking with beer. While it's a small detail I would think he would write that into Tom's character. I personally think he's some sort of Valar or equal to in power seeing how everything reacts to his singing.
There a bits of Tolkien in every character, more in Tom than most. The power of storytelling and song creation was certainly something identified with.
He was apparently around before anything else, so I was thinking he's a sliver of Eru (not Eru himself, in full), left there as a way for Eru to observe/be part of his creation. As such he may not be that much of an offensive power, but he's probably impossible to attack.
The author has said that there is not a personification of Eru that we meet... But in my own head canon I see Tom as an avatar or projection or something of Eru. It just feels right 😁
I think Tom is the personification of Arda itself - specifically, he is Arda uncorrupted by Melkor. So while he is not Eru himself, he is the embodiment of Eru's vision for Creation. As such, he must reflect Eru's will to some extent.
In the Silmarillion it states that there were many entities that entered the world who were not Maia, Ainar etc. For instance Ungoliant. My opinion has always been that these entities indeed were of the same race as the Ainar but all were of different power levels. Ungoliant supposedly defeated Morgoth until he called for help etc. so Bombadil and even Goldberry were of that angelic (or demonic) race of spirits. One way to tell is almost all cases the Angelic or good side were usually married and those that were not mentioned as being married could have been anyway.
I always interpreted Tom as being an embodiment of the goodness of life and nature, and also of the hope for a better future. Thus, Tom's powers are best expressed through the actions and choices of others rather than his own, since the goodness and hope of others is the essence of what he is. This could be why he loves collecting and telling heroic stories. This is also why he cannot be corrupted by the ring directly. He will not fall until all creation has been conquered and the hope for a better future wiped out, cutting him off from his source of power. As to who would win, I think Tom did in a sense. Sauron was brought down by Frodo and the Fellowship's courage and perseverance in the face of evil, which is what Tom is all about. Sauron is destroyed and the heroes become another story of good triumphing over evil, breathing life and power into Tom.
My personal HC is that Tom and Goldberry are literal guests in Arda, drawn to its beauty from Outside, like Ungoliant was drawn in by her endless hunger; but they fit in much better. Maybe Eru himself taught them to.
I believe if it came down to a fight, Tom would prevail by causing Sauron to destroy himself using his own power using what I can only describe as metaphysical Judo strategies.
The one ring has no power over tom because he has no ambition. He is content with his life as it is. I think the one ring needs someone with ambition to be able to corrupt them.
8:3616:00 I think the best theory of what Tom is, is that he represents the song Eru sung itself. He represents the nature of things, and he doesnt understand the battle between light and dark... Yet his power is arguably greater than the istary, and the ring doesn't have an effect on him (like it would say on Gandalf, who was petrified of even touching it). He was there in the beginning before anyone else, he is fatherless and also i think Tolkien said Eru doesn't have a physical incarnation. He is the song itself. It's why he would be simultaneously the best and worst person to be the ring bearer... He could easily throw it into mount doom and never become corrupt by the ring, yet it would be impossible to get him to the mountain because he simply doesn't care or can't comprehend the situation.
Tom could very well be Chaos, as in the very embodiment of Ginnungagap the Norse belief of the time before anything. He is the Eldest, he is fatherless and he was the First. He is neutral and cares not for the affairs of the world. He has no concept of good or evil, and not interfering, is chaos.
My theory about Tom Bombadil is that he is one of the "nameless creatures" but a positive version. The nameless creatures originated in the discord in the music by Melkor, which led to many unintended creatures to take form before the Ainur even reached Arda. Most of these were evil or grotesque, since they were accidents of the discord. But Tom is probably the one "happy little accident", where the discord actually created a being who is good and yet immensely powerful. This adds up with Tom's claim that he was in Arda even before Sauron or the Valar.
The true answer is probably Tom is Tom. My theorist answer is he was created by the music in the discord of Melkor. Where some of the discord influenced foul things like the Watcher in the Water, the response of Eru in incorporation created good things. Thus, Tom would be in creation even before Melkor ever set foot in Arda.
Do you think Tom is a liar? Or do you think he does not know what he is? According to his own words he's eldest. Not eldest in Arda, those are not his words. He's eldest, I trust him on his word. He could not have been created by Melkor. For that would mean Melkor is older than Tom, and Tom is eldest. He could not have been created by Eru. For that would mean Eru is older than Tom, and Tom is eldest. Tom was there before creation and will be there after it. To him the darkness of Melkor or Sauron are but fleeting things, for which he can't worry too much about. Gamdalf and the elves can't phantom the power Tom has, and as a result underestimate it. Neither can they understand the perspective of a being older than time.
@@woodytimes9029 Ahh. Then Tom is Tom. For Tom is indeed older the Eru for Tom was in a literary sense created before Eru by Tolkein. Thus, he is eldest.
Bombadil, being the enigma that he is, I imagine being powerful enough to single handedly stop Sauron or most great evils. I also don't think he would comprehend the necessity to do such a thing on his own. I imagine Tom just snapping a finger or waving a hand and Sauron losing all of his power being unable to do anything. There is an episode of Star Wars Clone Wars where Yoda just deactivates Asaj Ventress' lightsabers with the force instead of actually fighting her. It would be like that.
I can’t imagine he’d have been capable of doing that, because Tom is only described as being master of himself and his land that he’s hidden and secluded himself in, Galadriel was able to hide Lothlorien similarly from Sauron, but it is clear that she would not have the ability to destroy him, and honestly she has more feats of power to her name than Tom, like when she single-handedly destroyed Dol Goldur and cleansed the Mirkwood of Sauron’s evil, so I can’t imagine Tom would be able to destroy Sauron if she couldn’t.
I still believe that Tom is Eru in physical form living separately in the Old Forest observing how his Music is playing out in the wider world and how its being shaped. His behaviour is very similar to Eru himself. Separated and unconcerned about the death and destruction that both Dark Lords have levied on Arda. He is letting the music run its course. He is letting his children dance to the music. Now, Eru only intervened when pleaded by the Valar. The cost of his intervention? Arda forever changed - Numenor destroyed and Valinor removed completely from reach by mortal men. Gandalf made a comment during the Council that Tom may keep the ring if all the Free People of the Earth asked him. I firmly believe all the free people of earth would ask him to do so and Tom would keep it. However, the suggestion was never given a chance to be exected. My theory is that Gandalf feared that if Tom got involved then Arda would forever be changed yet again. The cost would be too great. Also, defeating Sauron had to be done by the people of earth in order for them to grow. Now, on a 1 on 1 fight between the two? Of course Tom would win. How many times has Sauron lost when he came out to fight on his own? Luthien kicked his ass and she's just a half elf/half maiar hybrid. How would Sauron fair against (not going for Eru this time) the embodiment of Arda, the embodiment of Nature or the Music of the Ainur (as the other theories claim)? It's hard to fathom that Luthien is more powerful than the embodiment of Arda, Nature or the Music of the Ainuir. Remember, the son's of Feanor caught and imprisoned Luthien. No one's every caught Tom - and we know, NO ONE! And I doubt Sauron would succeed even with his fancy ring on. We know Sauron has his sorcery. But Tom has his voice. Sauron's sorcery seeks out weaknesses to take advantage and he won't find one in Tom which would render him powerless to defeat him. Tom would just tell Sauron go back to Valinor and asked for the Valar's forgiveness and Sauron will probably obey. Okay. So Sauron uses his army of Orcs, Troll, Vampires and whatever foul creatures that his evil has summoned to fight Tom. Fine. What's stopping the embodiment of Arda, nature or the Music of the Ainur or as Goldberry describes him "The Master of wood, water, and hill" from summoning all the creatures of nature that exist in Arda - all the creatures that exist in Midldle Earth all the way to the continent of Arda where Valinor is located. Now, Goldbery mentioned "water" which means he probably could summon all the creatures in all the seas and oceans and rivers and lakes that Ulmo rules. Im comparing Tom to Eywa from the movie Avatar summoning all creatures to fight. So in the end Tom would triumph over Sauron. But what would be the cost to Arda if they fought it out? I guess we wil just have to speculate but we know when great powers battle - the land and people suffer. Tom will win but I doubt he will fight Sauron. The cost will be too great. So, He'll just relocate to Aman. He and Goldberyy will likely move to Ungoliath's old place seeing its available since she left abruplty breaking her lease to the Valars. They'll spruce it up and live happily ever after.
After a fire completely destroys huge sections of land, we will inevitably see one small green plant or flower regrow in that desolated area over time. Eventually life comes back. That is what Tom represents to me. I think that if Sauron had destroyed Middle Earth to the point of the disappearance of Tom, he would have eventually reappeared during such a time when nature would reclaim the land.
Yeah, he's the spirit of nature in Middle Earth. Sauron was trying to corrupt and destroy Middle Earth, which is why if the Fellowship was unable to destroy the ring, it would ultimately come down to Sauron vs Tom.
His songs are the stronger songs and his feet are faster ... Hmmmmm, I do believe that is your answer as to how Tom would fight Sauron. Rap battle along with a dance off. I can see those two squaring up mic's in hand...
My head cannon is that Tom Bombadil is a "systemic anomaly" in the Music of the Ainur, a la Neo in The Matrix: In the Ainulindale, when Eru Illuvatar gave the Ainur a vision of what their music might create, they took great joy in it and wished it _to be._ Bombadil is the manifestation of that joy and that wish, a harmonic overtone created unintentionally and _before_ the Ainur descended into Arda from the Timeless Halls and the Children of Eru were awakened. Because he is not a "sung" part of the Music, the One Ring has no power over him, and because he was a byproduct of the Ainur's joy in creating, he spreads that joy and emboldens their creation.
I thought I remember a comment in one of the history of middle earth books that Tolkien said that if anyone had just thought to ask Bombadil he had the ability to de-power or neutralize the one ring
Knowing that Tolkien drew a lot of thematic influence from the Bible, here’s something to consider. In Genesis 14, Abraham (father of Israel) meets a man named Melchizedek, who says that he is a priest of the Lord, which is odd because the priesthood would not exist for several more generations. Genesis also says he had no father and that he never died, he just always was. This isn’t saying anything about Melchizedek himself (he did have a father and did die, but those details are purposely excluded from the story), but rather it’s a handful of details added so that later on in Psalms, the messiah (Jesus) could be described as a priest, just like Melchizedek, no beginning, no end, always existing, not a Priest because anyone made him one but because he just is one by nature. Melchizedek is included so that he could help us understand something else. Maybe that’s what Bombadil is to LOTR, he’s a mystery on his own, but he sheds light on something else. We’re not meant to think about him too much, but to use that odd little snip of the story to understand something else the author DOES want us to think about…. Maybe.?
I'm no lore master, but I get the sense Tom is essentially a representation of life and nature. Similar to how the Germans in WWII were devastated by the Winter, Tom represents the awesome power alive in the core of existance, while also representing the random nature of its actions. In sum, whether or not Sauron could defeat Tom, I think is similar to whether humans could destroy life on Earth. We're no match for its awesome power if it were to turn against us, but its very nature keeps it from directing that power to destroy us. At least so far as we know. 😅
Well Sauron took part in the creation, Tom was just the first being in Arda, but there is not much evidence of his power over Sauron aside from the dubious fact that he was unamused by the Ring, which while a powerful asset, was in a realm of which Tom was great, and also that Sauron relied on many more abilities aside from mere corruption. Had Tom gone into Sammath-Naur, the Realm of Sauron's Power, it would be no contest.
@@taelorpickel2830 Your assessment makes sense, but I think the idea that Tom was just kind of left in the story, means he's not really supposed to make sense within the rules of the lore. Rather, that Tolkien didn't feel it necessary make him fit to the rules. He just seems to me, like a character who's the personification of existence. Good or bad, doesn't register. He's just a character that does stuff. Gods and elves and men come up with plans and have goals, but a hurricane is just a thing that happens. Though I suppose if my interpretation is correct, maybe he'd be a bit more chaotic, and less compassionate. Hard to say.
I've always thought of Tom Bombadil as a sort of "Father Earth", a representation of the spirit of the very world. Tom claimed to have been there when the Elves first came over from Valinor. I believe he was created when the world was, in the Music of the Ainur, Arda personified. Despite everything he's seen over the ages, he cares about absolutely nothing other than the land itself, and his lady Goldberry (the water personified). The land is his one and only domain.
I feel the same way and im a little mistified that people worry over tom. Hes tom, nuff said. He is and he does and he has no truck with the wisps of social issues that come and go while the land remains.
Given we watched Tom make the ring vanish and come back (you can only imagine Sauron at that time - for a brief moment he ceased to exist then comes back like wtf just happened) Tom wouldn’t attempt any conflict, rather ask which songs and legends he likes and if Sauron answers with violence, Tom would vanish. But if Sauron engages with words and takes Tom’s tea, Tom would welcome him like a friend and no doubt talk/sing Sauron to eternity till both disappear
Hey there, Mairon fair! Mairon my own dear one. Come follow merry Tom. Put down the name of Sauron! Without the weight of iron helm, your head is lighter bare. So come now friend, lay down your armour. Breathe the summer air! Over field, across the river young Goldberry is waiting. To hear us talk of Elder Days when the world was waking!
@@katherinegraham3803 Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow, Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow. None has ever caught him yet, For Tom, he is the master: his songs are stronger songs, and his feet are faster.
Hmm we should probably look to Saurons other battles that we know details of. 1st against Finrod Felagund. In this battle of Songs it goes back and forth between Sauron and a great Elf Lord but the Elf Lord does lose seemingly barely in the end. Then Sauron gets his Ass kicked by Huan the Hound and goes crying back to Daddy Morgoth. Sauron then obviously is defeated presumably by Eonwe in the final battle of Beleriand. Then in the second Age Sauron gets taken out by GilGalad an elf lord and Elendil a Numenorian lord while he is in possession of the one ring and at the very pinnacle of personal power. Yes they both die as well but still they took him out and Isildur cut the ring from Saurons finger. I think Bombadil or Gandalf are more powerful than the combined power of Gilgalad and Elendil. In the third age Sauron does not have the ring and is of greatly diminished personal power though he still has great strength of will that has allowed him to reform and move chess pieces on a board. Sorry but I believe that in this ringless state Gandalf or Bombadil could take out Sauron in a one on one match. It would be a battle of songs of power like with Finrod. Heck I think the Balrog if it had more will power and guile could have easily overthrown a ringless Sauron. Sauron is very inately powerful but he is more a planer and schemer and I question his actual might in a one on one battle. And for ease of explanation I just always assume that Bombadil is just a maia of Yavanna gone natural. Yes he says stuff to the Hobbits about being the oldest and the first but really how much metaphysical detail of the Aiulindale do think he is going to be explaining.to the hobbits. Just because the other Maiar and Valar are also first does not mean Tom is not. Tom likely would have more power than Gandalf the Grey perhaps not as much as Gandalf the White.
Tom is both the spirit and the music of the Ainur itself. He is a personification of the music that the Ainur used to sing the world into existence, which is why he is always singing and whistling. He is living music and thus represents the very spirit of the land. There you have it.
My theory is that Bombadil is the land itself incarnated into a physical body. Sort of a conscious Arda. Sauron can not destroy the land, only reshape it. In a fight, Bombadil could not be killed, but maybe forced to take another form. In the process, Sauron would expend a ton of energy and effort. But as the land is basically neutral, Sauron would likely choose to ignore Bombadil. This could explain how Bombadil can make the ring disappear, as it often did disappear and go missing under a mountain or a river. The land of can conceal treasure but not destroy it outright.
Gandalf the Gray said that Bombadil wouldn't win against Sauron but essentially at that point it would be the entire world against Tom Gandalf the White was wiser I think based on all the information if Tom had a stepped up during the war of the Rings he could have won a single-handedly but being omnipotent he knew he didn't have to and he knew that he could step up if they failed I think that in his many ages he has seen things darker than morgoth and Sauron. 😉 and never underestimate a soul that can't be corrupted
Keep in mind that Sauron with his One Ring was defeated 3 times in the Second Age. 1) around 1700 by Elves and Men in Eriador (Gil-galad, Elrond and Numenoreans); 2) in the 3260s by Ar-Pharazon and the host of Numenor; and 3) in the 3430s by The Last Alliance of Men and Elves. So I wonder, could Tom Bombadil withstand a Sauron who has not recovered the One Ring. But then, Tom would also have to defeat Sauron's hosts and the Nazgul. (I'm thinking of an alternate outcome where Frodo fails in his quest but the One is just lost again.)
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Your channel is more entertaining than Amazon’s billion dollar show.
Tom wins the battle, and not with some traditional use of force, he simply brings life with him to the battle. Sauron grabs Tom and in victory pulls him close, Top puts an acorn inside sauron's helmet, Tom makes the acorn grow inside sauron's armor, and in a moment sauron is trapped forever inside a tree. fight over. no great show of violence, just life eternal winning against the upstart.
@@onemadhungrynomad great idea
Tom would just be dancing and singing with Sauron unable to catch him. Sauron, exhausted, falls to his knees. Goldberry sneaks up behind him and knifes him. Tom had no idea he was even in a fight
Perfection 👌🏻
So, like a dolphin vs a shark?
I can’t picture Golberry knifing anybody. How about this: Tom leads Sauron to the banks of the Withywindle, where a sudden drowsiness descends upon the dark lord’s mind. Then, much like Melkor under Luthein’s spell, he topples to the ground with a crash. A gap opens in the ancient, gnarled willow nearby, and the roots draw him in. The gap shuts with a snap, and Bombadil skips away merrily to pick some water-lilies.
ua-cam.com/video/ZZouiWmzWoY/v-deo.html
Perfect
I must say, I really *love* my job. Great work on bringing this idea and script to life, James!
Great video, thank you for this long awaited vs video. I am fascinated by Tom, while I hear and understand Gandalf’s argument for dismissing Tom, let us consider that Sauron was in fact bested in duels before, in hand to hand battle with Huan for example. Nearly bested by Finrod Felagund in a battle of songs and spells, finally, he was severely wounded by Gil-Galad in their epic fight.
So Sauron is not unbeatable whether in physical or metaphysical forms he can be bested. I do think Tom could route him, defeat him, embarrass him even, this said, I don’t think of Tom of as general or warrior who would destroy Sauron, rather he would defend, route him off and that’s it. Tom wouldn’t much care about pursuing this evil, I think that’s what Gandalf meant, that in the end, it needs to be the peoples of middle earth banning together to defeat Sauron and keeping the hope and beauty of songs, valleys, goodwill alive.
Facts! Sauron would attack Tom over and over and be repulsed every time, but Tom would never leave his land to attack Sauron and finish him off.
Opinion! Sauron would entreat with Iarwain. He knows this is an ancient and superior foe, and persuasion is Sauron's greatest tool. He used Palantir to deceive Saruman and Denethor. Subverted them, rather than fighting openly. He might leave Tom in his little enclave, ruling all beyond. But then he would parlay, and perhaps using the ring, take a form, pleasing and innocent. Tom would see through this, of course. He would know it is falsehood, but not understand or care enough and be led into whatever trap Sauron, as Mairon the admirable Maiar, would conceive. Tom would be destroyed, or trapped, and Goldberry sacrificed or perverted.
It is like Tom Bombardil is a creature from a parallel world, not a product of Eru Iluvatar's creation. And just in Middle Earth as a guest to observe.
How would the fight go? Very tragically for Tom and Goldberry. My fanfic-like concept is that Sauron, in possession of the One Ring, and having defeated the Wizards and everyone else, would finally turn his eyes towards his last nemesis. He would burn and poison the lands and rivers around the Old Forest. The first to sicken and then die would be Goldberry as the rivers and weather no longer allow her to be who she is (a spirit of the rivers and weather, mainly). Tom would be griefstricken and find little left in the world for himself. He would not be the carefree spirit of the forest he once was, and his powers would wane and then Sauron's forces would raise the Old Forest to the ground.
Great video! I like all the detail and research put into this!
💚
Tom is immune to Sauron. He is ageless, timeless, and care free. He is a being owing nothing to anybody but Eru. He would exist long after Sauron was cast into the void and Ea was dust.
I think the real question is if there is anything that could stop Tom Bombadil from walking into Mordor? If he was convinced of the need he could have just walked right up to Mt. Doom and thrown the ring in himself. That would have ended Sauron. However their was probably nothing that could have caused Tom to do that... unless all the Ents and other creatures of Middle Earth asked him. As he weighed what do due the final voice who asks him to act is Goldberry herself. Therefore Tom takes up the quest guided by Gandalf.
Tom is the scariest character because he's so mysterious and unconcerned with everything. With his insane power levels and being older than basically everything in Toilkens world makes him weirdly terrifying...
Thanks for making this wonderful video, and adding the great artwork and crediting the artists! It’s a very interesting question, and given the fact that the ring had no effect on him tells me that Sauron wouldn’t either. It’s like he lives on Middle-earth as a visitor without any of the evils or wills of the natural inhabitants having any influence on him whatsoever. I think if Sauron tried to attack him, he could shrink him in the palm of his hand, and Sauron would shout back in a tiny voice, hey, what’s the big idea, and Tom would just flick him back to Mordor with his forefinger 😂
Scene opens with Sauron stepping into Tom's house. Tom comes in dancing and singing unexpectedly from behind Sauron and pats him on the back. Sauron readies for battle. Tom smiles and continues to sing. Seen fades and returns to show Sauron singing and dancing with Tom. Sauron begins shaking and dissolves into the darkness. Tom continues to sing and dance, unaware Sauron is gone.
I've always interpreted Bombadil as the personification of nature - he does not turn invisible just as if you put the ring on a branch, it would not turn invisible
I've thought that Bombadil restricts himself to the old forest as being Tolkien's message about nature being much smaller and limited as it was in the past - remember Treebeard once mentioned a squirrel could once jump from tree to tree from the sea to.. I don't remember where specifically, but far is my point.
Given this is the third age, that is what I understand the limiting factor due to the rise of dwarves and men and orcs even, cutting down nature to fuel their lives
Can't be the truth, but I like to think about it
I might be totally wrong, but I always got the feeling that Tom Bombadil showed up in the beginning of LOTR because Tolkien was still figuring out what the story was going to be in Book 1. I don't know what Tolkien's writing process was like, but it is possible he did not have everything plotted out ahead of time.
The most common belief of Tom Bombadil is that he is to the light what Ungoliant is to the dark. Ungoliant was so strong with the darkness that she was able to consume even a Valar (Melkor/Morgoth) in the darkness to such an extent that it created an exceptional level of fear in a literal God. I think that in the same way, Tom is so powerful with the light that he could consume Sauron in so much light that Sauron would repent his past sins and return to the side of good (a Tolkien version of Darth Vader’s redemption).
For a different theory, i also believe that he could be the narrator. The Silmarilon is written in a way that its a story being told by a great storyteller, he’s second only to Iluvatar and is telling the story of Iluvatar to the people unable to comprehend the words of Iluvatar, as translator of history for all times.
I think Tom is more complex than the idea of a fight with Sauron. Sauron would be frustrated and confused when dealing with something like Tom.
Just had the thought that Tom Bombadil could be Aule and Goldberry aka Yavanna. Would explain a lot.
Would it be ok to know the first soundtrack you used in this video? It would be fun to play in the background of certain games.
Tom is like a nymph. A nymph is the personification of the beauty of a place. And Tom is the personification of the beauty of all of Middle Earth. An Uber nymph lol
I'm going to say this, within his domain I don't believe that there's a single thing that Sauron could do to either, Tom, Goldberry or the land itself.
However I also believe that he is aware of this and would not ever issue any form of direct challenge to him, for he is master. However I equally think that he is aware that he doesn't have to challenge Tom in order to win the day, knowing that once his Influence is sufficiently spread whatever powers that Tom is capable of wielding and perhaps himself entirely would either away and along with him the peaceful utopia of story and song that is his home and hearth.
Tom would have redeemed Middle Earth from under Sauron's feet. He would simply unmake Mordor and restore the Orcs into Elvin form.
Most likely, after Sauron fell, he did so off the stage. Whether the restored Orcs would go to the West or take another form ( fairies or men) can be left to the imagination.
TB was a badass. Straight up. He didn't fight Sauron cause it was below his pay grade.
I would prefer the fight to be via a Palantíri instead of a physical fight.
Since both characters are not known for the great physical prowess, but for their power of will.
(Sauron was before he went to middle earth even known that he sucks at fighting.)
This type of fight would also make it fair in terms of location, as both characters represent fundamental aspects that are also defined in their lands.
So what I think that the Palantíri contest would result into: a horrible stalemate as both wills are immeasurably strong but neither Tom could convince Sauron of the beauty of the peaceful freedom, nor could Sauron convince/dominate Tom's mind.
(If this would be the main storyline, then Eru Ilúvatar would shift the balance as insinuated in several points throughout the story.)
I believe Tom is Eru Ilúvatar himself, but being so all powerful can disguise himself so that noone can see who he is. Even the valar are unable to see past how he looks and acts and judge him more incompetent than they can realise. He is also so far above them he doesn't see good and evil as clearly defined. He also sings alot just as Eru Ilúvatar did
I imagine Tom beating Sauron in a dance battle, and Sauron leaves Arda in shame
Personally I am convinced that Tom is an incarnation of Eru Iluvator, residing in middle earth to watch his music (creation) develop.
The answer is already in the Council of Elrond chapter of the Fellowship of the Ring. At least, this is the answer from the perspective of some Elven leaders and possibly also Gandalf. TB loses. When all else falls, TB will fall last as he was first, then darkness comes. If Sauron can defeat and overcome Arda itself, then TB, as the representation of Arda, loses.
Bombadil, because Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow, Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow. None has ever caught him yet, for Tom, he is the Master: His songs are stronger songs, and his feet are faster.
Tolkien created the character of Tom Bombadil I think as an aspect of Christianity where believers question why all powerful God allows evil and suffering to continue, Evil has no effect on Tom, but Tom does not explain how to over come Sauron, the ring or Mordor. All power seems isolated to Heaven as Tom is to his own lands.Jesus beats death on the Cross, but the full power of that defeat seems illusive.
Axcording to Sir PJ thelate GREAT ROBIN WILLIAMS shot scenes as Iaiwin ben Ada
I can imagine Tom Bambadil to be played by Jack Black if he were acting at this time. 😂
It could be a physical conflict .
Tom could easily fold Mt. Doom in upon itself . But he'd not because he's Tom .
Old Tom Bombadil is Tolkien himself the first being in the world.
...I'm actually not so sure about this conclusion, even if Tolkien's own scenarios especially at the council in Rivendell and Gandalfs elaborations there hint to this. Why? Because Tolkien wrote the whole epos with the intention of eventually the 'good' will have to win, and 'some force will make sure that evil doesn't'. One example: when Frodo comments on Gandalf's story of Bilbo finding the ring, and wouldn't it have been more convenient, if the ring tries to get back to his master, if an ork would have found it, Gandalf replies, that this is no laughing matter, but its a very hopeful sign, as if something (some good force) wanted Bilbo to find it. There are many such turns in the story, almost ridiculously many... from the black rider missing Frodo at Bag End just about, Frodo escaping at Weathertop the morgul knife's intention of piercing his heart and making him another servant of the enemy, Gandalf almost lost in the fight with the Balrog gets revived and sent back until his task is done (by whom?) ...through many more such-like miraculous turns to the final countdown, when Frodo is about to fail, even Gollum, the most unlikely hero at that moment, makes sure (unintentionally of course) that the ring gets destroyed... it does have a religious touch here for me, where God would stop the evil before it destroys the world. Now: this is not evidence that Tom would have saved the world, but of that the higher forces wouldn't have allowed, that also he in the end falls, which closes the Valar circle for me: with Sauron on the evil side and Tom on the good - yet both eventually only puppets in the wake of the unfolding drama, with no final power (given) to destroy creation. Sauron can't destroy the world, and Tom can't save it (by himself), but a higher force, maker of both, will make sure, that the spiel of good and bad continues.
The planet...that world is a planet... I wonder if Tolkien gave or wrote any hint about what is there to the east, where the continent ends because obviously has to end... And the shape of the continent we know and almost all action is happening, some claim that it looks like Europe, but without the water that separates Britain from mainland Europe... I don't know if there is any merit in that... The same said something like Mordor is where Turkey is and had more or less that shape...
My answer before watching this is that Sauron wouldn’t have been able to hurt Tom. But probably the same goes the other way.
Where is the background cello music from ?
I believe it would depend on a lot of variables! To me tom bombadil is the very embodiment of arda itself as ungoliant is the embodiment of the void. If sauron regained the ring he would destroy all the races first then begin destroying the world itself and as Tolkien wrote tom would be the last thing to fall. I’d say as tom speaks of having greater power and lands in the past that he was severely weakened from his full might by the corruption melkor wrought on middle earth itself. Tom doesn’t have the power to fight beyond his realm where his remaining power is concentrated but if sauron was to try and fight him there with or without the ring with everything else alive and unmarred he would lose! Sauron though powerful is simply a maiar and tom being the embodiment of arda was created by eru illuvitar, all the valar including melkor, and all the maiar including sauron himself combined, so sauron would be fighting way above his weight class! Sauron would need to defeat tom by a war of attrition by destroying all other life first! Sauron would eventually regain the ring even from tom as Gandalf said he would keep it if all the peoples of the free folk begged him but would eventually forget about it and loose it. But in a straight up fight tom bombadil wipes the floor with sauron in seconds!
Tom is Sauron’s shadow self.
He’s a hypostatization, a concept given form. Of course nothing real can destroy a concept without complete control over every thought of every being.
I don't think a fight is possible. Bombadil is not particularly concerned about the ring other than it being a sharp object, and I don't know that he can be enlisted in a war. Give him the ring he'd probably just lose it. It's not his concern. If attacked by Sauron I think bombadil would survive, but that's not the same as winning the war.
How does a flower fight fire? She lets itself get burned, lets the fire pass and only regrows even stronger... I think Bombadil ist truly immortal, meaning even If Sauron used all His power to hurt Bombadil, Tom would just take it all head on, all the while laughing and singing. To the Point that Sauron really starts to fear him and then just turned away, knowing that there are things life itself that are truly eternal. So Bombadil would mentally win this match, because he wouldnt even be trying to win the fight physically because he doesnt want or need to. His Heart ist too big, to hurt a confused fallen Angel that has lost its way...
I mean just Look at Sauron for what He truly is... A fallen Spirit that is trapped in a coffin Made of Iron and fire. I think Tom could still see the life at the core of Sauron and would pitty him for falling so low.
Tom would get bored, then Sauron would win
I’m not an expert or Tolkien aficionado, but imho Tom is a manifestation of Eru. Why else wouldn’t the ring have no effect. He’s beyond the physical world, but part of it for some reason. Perhaps to be an example.
I wonder if Tom could actually like lose his cool and become angered. Maybe he has a deep ancient power lurking inside that could be released when he is in real danger. I mean he probably never really had in encounters with many Evil characters.
Tom Bombadil is something similar to a god. Sometimes feel pity for mortals. Sometimes it just ignore them. And sometimes just smash what is in its path even when it doesn't get knowledge about it. He just don't give a shit!
If Tom was the essence of nature, then Goldberry was the balance that nature always seeks. Nature in balance is a formidable force. The fundamental forces in nature are chaos and order, always in ebb and flow. Order is borne of Ultimate chaos, Ultimate order begets chaos, and all the mix in between. So, even if sauron realized his quest of Ultimate and ravaged Tom, Tom is the penultimate result of the Ultimate.
I think Tom is old enough to have seen the rise and fall of both Melkor and Sauron once already. If born of the Music of Creation he is aware of the Eru's final act and it's outcome and therefore has little concern over the tribulations of those who must play their roles in the game of Fate.
What was Eru's final act? I don't remember that from my (admittedly skimpy) reading of The Silmarilan.
That Melkor would Escape from the doors of Darkness. A final battle would ensue and Turin would finally avenge his family and kill the dark lord.
@@archercromwell1571 OK, thanks!
@@mordechai-
Frankly, I believe that TB is either an enigma or he is the embodiment of the secret fire: set at the heart of Middle Earth.
He was there already so...🤓😎✌🏻
If it wasn't for Tom, The fellowship would never have happened, The journey would have ended before it began. Tom saved the 4 hobbits and also equipped them with the weapons they would need. That to me indicates he was aware of his part and did what was required to achieve the end result. Tom exists out of time and can see what the future holds.
Certainly Bombadils choice of weapons given to Merry and Pippin seems to have played an exact part to first cripple and lead to the destruction of the Witch King at the battle of Pelenor fields. So I am leaning your way to agree.
@@noelstarchild nope
@@jasonfuentz4282 (?)
Nope because, or just nope.
I thought all the trolls have gone at last.
@@noelstarchild just nope
@@jasonfuentz4282
Thank you for your contribution.
A fight between Sauron and Tom seems like an echo of Morgoth vs. Ungoliant, the dark twin of Tom thematically, a being without explanation or defined status. While her fate is often assumed to be an unending consumption ending in herself, Tom is consumed by nothing. I think Sauron would attempt to fight him but find that all efforts were in vain. He would never be able to force a final conflict, and the land Tom chose to hold would forever remain a pocket of purity and reminder to Sauron of his limits. Like Varda placing the Sickle above Utumno to always remind Melkor she and the Valar were there opposing him.
That's a really interesting idea! I like the comparison between Ungoliant and Tom Bombadil!
Agree, next video "Ungoliant versus Tom Bombadil"!!
Well said, Mr. Rhome.
Tom is obviously older than Sauron and likely of a higher order of creation than the Maia and i totally disagree with the videos conclusion...i don't think any fight would happen between them because even with the ring Sauron would have no power over him of course Tom wouldn't fight because that's his nature but i also believe that ultimately Sauron would lose because he cant beat Tom and because of HIS(Sauron)nature he must beat him...
@@wildfire160 Older as in having the oldest physical existence of any creature, yes. But the Ainur (including Sauron) existed as spirits prior to the creation of Arda and physical reality as a whole. Sauron didn’t get his physical manifestation until after he helped the heavenly host bring the very concept of ‘being’ into being, but that’s just the point. Tom might be the soul of Arda and might be comparable or even greater in strength to Manwe himself, but he is surely a product of the great music like the Elves and Ents and as such can’t be older than a member of the Ainur. In terms of orders of creation, that’s definitely up for debate. The comparison with Ungoliant is one I’ve liked. It’s known that Melkor’s discord manifested many dark creatures in the Void, so perhaps those loyal to Eru’s original music were responsible for weaving Tom into creation by how fiercely they sang in reprisal.
"Could that power be defied by Bombadil
alone? I think not. I think that in the end, if all else is conquered, Bombadil will fall, Last as he was First; and then Night will come.’
‘I know little of Iarwain save the name,’ said Galdor; ‘but Glorfindel, I think, is right. Power to defy our Enemy is not in him, unless such power is in the earth itself. And yet we see that Sauron can torture and destroy the very hills."
The key question then is if that power is within the earth itself. I'd generally say not to a degree that could stop Sauron. However, I do consider the head from a beheaded statue of a king of old that is crowned by flowers as it lay on the ground being noted by Sam as an act of defiance against Sauron to be important when thinking about Tom. I think there are things that exist that may have been able to resist Sauron even if he recovered the one ring. These things might be on the edge of Sauron's empire, but his empire probably would not be 100% total even had won the War of the Ring (or a 100% victory would have taken a very long time to achieve).
Don't forget this is spoken from the point of view of elves. Who may not understand much of the true might of the Maia and Vala. Certainly not of an eccentric being as Tom.
This is probably a literary excuse for keeping Tom out of the story more than an accurate commentary on his capability.
@@eschelar Yes, It would have been a very short book If Tom took care of Sauron then and there, so I agree.
Yeah except that quote offers nothing but to highlight the speculative shortsightedness of the elves when it comes to pondering all things that are above them. If the elves are staking their chips on the side of Sauron, then most likely it would be Tom taking the W.
I don't think it would be possible to eliminate all good on Middle-earth anymore than it would to eliminate all bad. The worst it would get would be a tiny patch of land that Tom Bombadil would somehow maintain as a golden fiefdom. Sauron vetching and grinding his teeth over the fact that he cannot dominate completely everything.
The real question of the elves discussing Bombadil's power is do they really know what he's capable of, or are they merely speculating? I think the most telling part is that he really wouldn't care enough about it to do anything.
Interesting. I’d never thought of that but it makes sense. We assume that a Maia such as Gandalf or immortals such as Elrond know more about Tom than we do, but perhaps not enough.
Perhaps Tom’s abilities are to Gandalf what Gandalf’s are to Frodo making TB’s abilities being out of the council’s realm of consciousness.
Perhaps he'd absorb the evil and turn it into laughter and song. Sauron would vaporize??
Not until he, himself, is directly affected. Then it would be a titanic battle. But who would win? Between Tom with zero assistance and Sauron with all his allies and vassals? In the end, even Tom cannot be in all places at once. He can only preserve that which is within his presence.
@@jdlech Yes but remember that Tom is always at one place.
Tom would probably forget he was in a fight and bounce away singing about trees and rabbits. Then Sauron would knife him in the back
That does sound quite Tom-like! Although he would probably keep dodging by skipping 😂
@@TheBrokenSword lol true story
The knife would curve with the warping of space around Tom and would never reach him.
Tom is permanently in Ultra Instinct.
If you’ve ever listened to the audio-book LOTR you will want to knife Tom in the back too. Most. Annoying. Character. Ever.
The depiction of Tom as Jack Black is by far my favorite.
Oh my gosh, yes. Jack Black would make an excellent Tom Bombadil.
If there is ever a Live action Tom Bombadil there are exactly two people who can portray him. One is Jack Black, the other is Snoop Dog
Im glad its not just me who saw Jack Black in that particuar artwork at 18:04 of Tom Bombadil 😄
18:03 Jack Black smile right here
i came to the comment section to make this exact comment!🤟
Tom is the spirit of nature, the Green Man, or as he is often called in the English Midlands 'The Lad in the Lane'. He simply negates the industrial might of Sauron. Nature will prevail .... beyond the Age on Man. He was there at The Big Bang of Tolkien's cosmology.
I would theorize that if Tom was a spirit in physical form like Ungoliant he could go toe-to-toe with Sauron as Ungoliant did with Melkor.
Facts!
Ungoliant's power grew enormously after she consumed the light of the Two Trees as well as the vats of liquid light that existed around the base of the Trees. It wasn't until after that point that Morgoth began to be afraid of her.
Another thing to add is Melkor was HEAVILY weakend having spread most of his power across the vast lands and array of entitiys so he wasn't even half strength.
How would such a fight occur? I’d take a page from the Silmarillion where Sauron battles Finrod in songs of power. It would not be a physical fight but of words; a Tolkien rap battle, as it were. It would surely be epic.
Good idea for an Epic Rap Battle
Tom made a little magical barrier around his land and hid from Sauron, waiting for better days. So, if he could win or even fight, why make a tiny little haven and hide...
"“Say rather that the Ring has no power over him. He is his own master. But he cannot alter the Ring itself, nor break its power over others. And now he is withdrawn into a little land, within bounds that he has set, though none can see them, waiting perhaps for a change of days, and he will not step beyond them.”
"Could that power be defied by Bombadil
alone? I think not. I think that in the end, if all else is conquered, Bombadil will fall, Last as he was First; and then Night will come.’
‘I know little of Iarwain save the name,’ said Galdor; ‘but Glorfindel, I think, is right. Power to defy our Enemy is not in him, unless such power is in the earth itself. And yet we see that Sauron can torture and destroy the very hills" - The council of Elrond
i dont think he was hiding at all. he just didn't care. sauron was irrelevant to him. he probably thought he can kick saurons butt any time if he wanted to. but he was just lazy and didn't care , i guess
@@rafaelgustavo7786 hard to argue with Glorfindel, one of the few in middle earth that may have actually known who/what he really was.
I’m thinking there could be a stand alone movie of the hobbits entering the old forest up to Tom escorting them to the boundary of his land.
On another note, one of those images of Tom certainly had Jack Black’s eye sparkle and grin
I saw Jack Black, too! He'd be a good Tom.
maybe fan made movie?
Sauron begins with a stomping snarling approach and Bombadil, floating like a butterfly, dances in and out like dappled sunshine through the trees on a breezy day. Sauron roars in anger and Tom mockingly sings in falsetto, proving that there is no note or theme outside the song of Elendil. Sauron swings and Bombadil bounces away, never in the place you saw him last, a moment later he's touching Sauron on the back with a stick, then ducking the swing and rolling away like a tumbleweed. Sauron is looking old and tired, he has no power to harm Tom, he drops the mace and grabs Bombadil with both hands, but Tom just kisses him on the forehead! Sauron reels back like he's been struck, but he can't seem to let go of Tom, the blue coat is just too spectacular to release! Tom seems to follow Sauron's step back, but then it's obvious, TOM IS LEADING THE DANCE! Sauron flops like a rag doll in Tom's mad dance, but his feet keep the time quite nicely, like those massive armored greaves weigh nothing at all! The song swells and drifts, the dance whirls and bounces, the grass and the birds and the dappled sunlight all bouncing in time!
...and then it's over, shockingly quiet. Sauron does a ludicrous walk-of-shame with his boots in one hand, limping ever-so-slightly away from Tom's beaming smile. The army of orcs and monsters are quiet, not knowing how to react to the silliest thing they've ever seen. Sauron slinks over the horizon, muttering to himself, "Fuck that guy and his stupid yellow boots..."
That was pretty good
@@denissavgir2881 thank you!
Somewhat crude, but damn funny!
Tom is an aspect of creation itself. And with that in mind has a direct correlation and link to Eru Ilúvatar and has all the same powers and gifts associated with him. So it wouldn't even be a battle. Tom would just imagine Sauron out of existence. His powers are so far beyond Sauron and even Morgoth that it can't even be fathomed!
Best answer so far! The final sentence of your comment is the most pertinent, and a concept that most folks forget. Frightened as Morgoth was of Ungoliant, he would be ten thousand times more frightened of Tom Bombadil, since Tom could actually compass Morgoth's vanishing into nothingness, as easily as flowing water vanquishes a flame.
Tom would be Eru, then.
Apologies, but where does this information come from? There is no text that I can find that describes Tom ever being related to Eru Ilúvatar. I am certain he does NOT have the powers of Eru. Melkor is through and through, by word of text by Tolkien himself, the most powerful being aside from Eru, in his works. Tom would be a miniscule thing to the Ainur in their true beings and state.
Eru is the only entity that can unmake the Ainur, Tom does not have this power.
Well said, or to put it another way, Sauron wouldn't even think about confronting him directly. Tom is as close to a personification of a god as we get.
His chorus says no one has caught him because his songs are stronger and his feet are faster. Therefore, if Sauron attacked Tom, I think he would be able to defend himself long enough to escape to a different, more sheltered part of Middle Earth. If there were no longer any uncorrupted lands, Tom Bombadil would possibly die because his power is from the earth, but he probably would escape across the sea to Valinor. He couldn't defeat Sauron, but I don't think Sauron could defeat him.
It's been gone over and theorized. In the book they even discussed Tom bombadil taking the ring. When it comes to power sauron cannot beat Tom bombadil by himself. It's more of sending unending amount of minions until his power is spent is how it would really go. Sauron doesn't have to beat bombadil quickly, he just has to beat him.
Based on that chorus… Tom very well may be a physical manifestation of Eru himself. His songs are better, he is the master. The first to arrive. The ring not affecting him… maybe he is Eru embodied so he may enjoy his creation.
@@temporarilyUnknown Yeah I've talked to people who hold to that theory. It's definitely an interesting idea.
@@seanbutler2291 So Sauron can't beat Tom himself but his minions can? Makes total sense. Just because Tom is not affected by the Ring doesn't give him a pedastal over Sauron, since Sauron has far more abilities than just corruption.
@@taelorpickel2830 You're right.
I think the issue wasn't that Tom Bombadil wasn't strong enough to challenge Sauron, but that he was not interested in leaving his self-imposed boundaries. Tom was the master of his own lands. The council believed that he would be conquered last. To me this implied Tom was stronger. He was dismissed as a possible guardian of the ring due to a perceived irresponsible nature.
Tom isn’t irresponsible, he’s disinterested. And what is there to conquer with Tom? He keeps to himself and his extended garden.
Tom would have beaten Sauron, Sarumon, Melkor, Darth Vader, The Balrog, and Smaug in one fight.
You just can't stop his singing.
Especially, if he sings "Indian Love Call" (the Slim Whitman song).
Remember, that song killed the Martians in Mars Attacks.
Bombadil, hands down Sauron's magic has already been shown to be useless against him when he held the ring.
This was in one context. Are Bilbo and Frodo able to resist Sauron's presence and raw power just because they can resist the Ring? No. Sauron had already shown himself to be a more formidable power than Tom. Tom was immune to the Ring's effects, but this has little barring to an actual fight between demiurgic beings. Of which Tom has shown to be not a demiurgic being while Sauron has.
@@taelorpickel2830Bilbo and Frodo *resist* Sauron, Tom is described as the ring "having NO power over him", which isn't quite the same as "having power but it being resisted*
So they basically cancel each other out... What do you think about a raw fist fight between the two? No magic. Not armies. Just throwing down, playground rules...
I think it's possible that Tom could very well be a literary representation of Tolkien himself. Maybe not an exact representation of who Tolkien was but a projection of what Tolkien wished to be.
I would disagree. Tolkein was obsessed with pipe smoking with beer. While it's a small detail I would think he would write that into Tom's character. I personally think he's some sort of Valar or equal to in power seeing how everything reacts to his singing.
I think he's the voice of Eru.
There a bits of Tolkien in every character, more in Tom than most. The power of storytelling and song creation was certainly something identified with.
That would be allegory …
its not a "i think" you didnt think that lol. that has literally been a fan theory for like 60 years
I have always thought of him as Eru personified. The ring has no hold on him because he has everything he could want. He is perfectly satisfied
He was apparently around before anything else, so I was thinking he's a sliver of Eru (not Eru himself, in full), left there as a way for Eru to observe/be part of his creation. As such he may not be that much of an offensive power, but he's probably impossible to attack.
The author has said that there is not a personification of Eru that we meet... But in my own head canon I see Tom as an avatar or projection or something of Eru. It just feels right 😁
No. This was already disproven in the texts. Eru is not physically present in Arda.
@@luckyowl6432 He's a holy hermit. Eru ultimately doesn't have a horse in the race so that's the explanation for his neutrality.
I think Tom is the personification of Arda itself - specifically, he is Arda uncorrupted by Melkor.
So while he is not Eru himself, he is the embodiment of Eru's vision for Creation. As such, he must reflect Eru's will to some extent.
In the Silmarillion it states that there were many entities that entered the world who were not Maia, Ainar etc. For instance Ungoliant. My opinion has always been that these entities indeed were of the same race as the Ainar but all were of different power levels. Ungoliant supposedly defeated Morgoth until he called for help etc. so Bombadil and even Goldberry were of that angelic (or demonic) race of spirits. One way to tell is almost all cases the Angelic or good side were usually married and those that were not mentioned as being married could have been anyway.
I always interpreted Tom as being an embodiment of the goodness of life and nature, and also of the hope for a better future. Thus, Tom's powers are best expressed through the actions and choices of others rather than his own, since the goodness and hope of others is the essence of what he is. This could be why he loves collecting and telling heroic stories. This is also why he cannot be corrupted by the ring directly. He will not fall until all creation has been conquered and the hope for a better future wiped out, cutting him off from his source of power. As to who would win, I think Tom did in a sense. Sauron was brought down by Frodo and the Fellowship's courage and perseverance in the face of evil, which is what Tom is all about. Sauron is destroyed and the heroes become another story of good triumphing over evil, breathing life and power into Tom.
My personal HC is that Tom and Goldberry are literal guests in Arda, drawn to its beauty from Outside, like Ungoliant was drawn in by her endless hunger; but they fit in much better. Maybe Eru himself taught them to.
I believe if it came down to a fight, Tom would prevail by causing Sauron to destroy himself using his own power using what I can only describe as metaphysical Judo strategies.
dumb af
The one ring has no power over tom because he has no ambition. He is content with his life as it is. I think the one ring needs someone with ambition to be able to corrupt them.
bingo!!!!!
8:36 16:00 I think the best theory of what Tom is, is that he represents the song Eru sung itself. He represents the nature of things, and he doesnt understand the battle between light and dark... Yet his power is arguably greater than the istary, and the ring doesn't have an effect on him (like it would say on Gandalf, who was petrified of even touching it). He was there in the beginning before anyone else, he is fatherless and also i think Tolkien said Eru doesn't have a physical incarnation. He is the song itself. It's why he would be simultaneously the best and worst person to be the ring bearer... He could easily throw it into mount doom and never become corrupt by the ring, yet it would be impossible to get him to the mountain because he simply doesn't care or can't comprehend the situation.
IMHO, the evil of Sauron focused on Tom Bombadil would be like ping pong balls thrown at a pillow....
I've often thought that Tom was Melkor. Not the Dark Lord but that which was good in Melkor in the beginning, personified.
Tom could very well be Chaos, as in the very embodiment of Ginnungagap the Norse belief of the time before anything.
He is the Eldest, he is fatherless and he was the First. He is neutral and cares not for the affairs of the world. He has no concept of good or evil, and not interfering, is chaos.
We never know what Tom is capable of. He could be on a level with Melkor/Morgoth for all we know.
My theory about Tom Bombadil is that he is one of the "nameless creatures" but a positive version. The nameless creatures originated in the discord in the music by Melkor, which led to many unintended creatures to take form before the Ainur even reached Arda. Most of these were evil or grotesque, since they were accidents of the discord. But Tom is probably the one "happy little accident", where the discord actually created a being who is good and yet immensely powerful. This adds up with Tom's claim that he was in Arda even before Sauron or the Valar.
The true answer is probably Tom is Tom. My theorist answer is he was created by the music in the discord of Melkor. Where some of the discord influenced foul things like the Watcher in the Water, the response of Eru in incorporation created good things. Thus, Tom would be in creation even before Melkor ever set foot in Arda.
Do you think Tom is a liar? Or do you think he does not know what he is? According to his own words he's eldest. Not eldest in Arda, those are not his words. He's eldest, I trust him on his word.
He could not have been created by Melkor. For that would mean Melkor is older than Tom, and Tom is eldest.
He could not have been created by Eru. For that would mean Eru is older than Tom, and Tom is eldest.
Tom was there before creation and will be there after it. To him the darkness of Melkor or Sauron are but fleeting things, for which he can't worry too much about.
Gamdalf and the elves can't phantom the power Tom has, and as a result underestimate it. Neither can they understand the perspective of a being older than time.
@@woodytimes9029 Ahh. Then Tom is Tom. For Tom is indeed older the Eru for Tom was in a literary sense created before Eru by Tolkein. Thus, he is eldest.
Frodo: Tom, please come with us. You can totally take on Sauron.
Tom looks over at his hot wife, Goldberry....
Bombadil, being the enigma that he is, I imagine being powerful enough to single handedly stop Sauron or most great evils. I also don't think he would comprehend the necessity to do such a thing on his own. I imagine Tom just snapping a finger or waving a hand and Sauron losing all of his power being unable to do anything. There is an episode of Star Wars Clone Wars where Yoda just deactivates Asaj Ventress' lightsabers with the force instead of actually fighting her. It would be like that.
Perfect analogy!
I can’t imagine he’d have been capable of doing that, because Tom is only described as being master of himself and his land that he’s hidden and secluded himself in, Galadriel was able to hide Lothlorien similarly from Sauron, but it is clear that she would not have the ability to destroy him, and honestly she has more feats of power to her name than Tom, like when she single-handedly destroyed Dol Goldur and cleansed the Mirkwood of Sauron’s evil, so I can’t imagine Tom would be able to destroy Sauron if she couldn’t.
I like the Star Wars reference!
I like to think that tom is the embodiment of eru's final note he must have cast in the creation of the world.
Team Bombadil ! who else?
I still believe that Tom is Eru in physical form living separately in the Old Forest observing how his Music is playing out in the wider world and how its being shaped. His behaviour is very similar to Eru himself. Separated and unconcerned about the death and destruction that both Dark Lords have levied on Arda. He is letting the music run its course. He is letting his children dance to the music. Now, Eru only intervened when pleaded by the Valar. The cost of his intervention? Arda forever changed - Numenor destroyed and Valinor removed completely from reach by mortal men. Gandalf made a comment during the Council that Tom may keep the ring if all the Free People of the Earth asked him. I firmly believe all the free people of earth would ask him to do so and Tom would keep it. However, the suggestion was never given a chance to be exected. My theory is that Gandalf feared that if Tom got involved then Arda would forever be changed yet again. The cost would be too great. Also, defeating Sauron had to be done by the people of earth in order for them to grow. Now, on a 1 on 1 fight between the two? Of course Tom would win. How many times has Sauron lost when he came out to fight on his own? Luthien kicked his ass and she's just a half elf/half maiar hybrid. How would Sauron fair against (not going for Eru this time) the embodiment of Arda, the embodiment of Nature or the Music of the Ainur (as the other theories claim)? It's hard to fathom that Luthien is more powerful than the embodiment of Arda, Nature or the Music of the Ainuir. Remember, the son's of Feanor caught and imprisoned Luthien. No one's every caught Tom - and we know, NO ONE! And I doubt Sauron would succeed even with his fancy ring on. We know Sauron has his sorcery. But Tom has his voice. Sauron's sorcery seeks out weaknesses to take advantage and he won't find one in Tom which would render him powerless to defeat him. Tom would just tell Sauron go back to Valinor and asked for the Valar's forgiveness and Sauron will probably obey. Okay. So Sauron uses his army of Orcs, Troll, Vampires and whatever foul creatures that his evil has summoned to fight Tom. Fine. What's stopping the embodiment of Arda, nature or the Music of the Ainur or as Goldberry describes him "The Master of wood, water, and hill" from summoning all the creatures of nature that exist in Arda - all the creatures that exist in Midldle Earth all the way to the continent of Arda where Valinor is located. Now, Goldbery mentioned "water" which means he probably could summon all the creatures in all the seas and oceans and rivers and lakes that Ulmo rules. Im comparing Tom to Eywa from the movie Avatar summoning all creatures to fight. So in the end Tom would triumph over Sauron. But what would be the cost to Arda if they fought it out? I guess we wil just have to speculate but we know when great powers battle - the land and people suffer. Tom will win but I doubt he will fight Sauron. The cost will be too great. So, He'll just relocate to Aman. He and Goldberyy will likely move to Ungoliath's old place seeing its available since she left abruplty breaking her lease to the Valars. They'll spruce it up and live happily ever after.
After a fire completely destroys huge sections of land, we will inevitably see one small green plant or flower regrow in that desolated area over time. Eventually life comes back. That is what Tom represents to me. I think that if Sauron had destroyed Middle Earth to the point of the disappearance of Tom, he would have eventually reappeared during such a time when nature would reclaim the land.
Tom reminds me of Pan from Greek mythology.
I always thought of Tom Bombadil as a physical representation of Middle Earth itself.
Yeah, he's the spirit of nature in Middle Earth. Sauron was trying to corrupt and destroy Middle Earth, which is why if the Fellowship was unable to destroy the ring, it would ultimately come down to Sauron vs Tom.
His songs are the stronger songs and his feet are faster ... Hmmmmm, I do believe that is your answer as to how Tom would fight Sauron. Rap battle along with a dance off. I can see those two squaring up mic's in hand...
My head cannon is that Tom Bombadil is a "systemic anomaly" in the Music of the Ainur, a la Neo in The Matrix:
In the Ainulindale, when Eru Illuvatar gave the Ainur a vision of what their music might create, they took great joy in it and wished it _to be._
Bombadil is the manifestation of that joy and that wish, a harmonic overtone created unintentionally and _before_ the Ainur descended into Arda from the Timeless Halls and the Children of Eru were awakened.
Because he is not a "sung" part of the Music, the One Ring has no power over him, and because he was a byproduct of the Ainur's joy in creating, he spreads that joy and emboldens their creation.
I thought I remember a comment in one of the history of middle earth books that Tolkien said that if anyone had just thought to ask Bombadil he had the ability to de-power or neutralize the one ring
Knowing that Tolkien drew a lot of thematic influence from the Bible, here’s something to consider.
In Genesis 14, Abraham (father of Israel) meets a man named Melchizedek, who says that he is a priest of the Lord, which is odd because the priesthood would not exist for several more generations. Genesis also says he had no father and that he never died, he just always was. This isn’t saying anything about Melchizedek himself (he did have a father and did die, but those details are purposely excluded from the story), but rather it’s a handful of details added so that later on in Psalms, the messiah (Jesus) could be described as a priest, just like Melchizedek, no beginning, no end, always existing, not a Priest because anyone made him one but because he just is one by nature. Melchizedek is included so that he could help us understand something else. Maybe that’s what Bombadil is to LOTR, he’s a mystery on his own, but he sheds light on something else. We’re not meant to think about him too much, but to use that odd little snip of the story to understand something else the author DOES want us to think about…. Maybe.?
I'm no lore master, but I get the sense Tom is essentially a representation of life and nature. Similar to how the Germans in WWII were devastated by the Winter, Tom represents the awesome power alive in the core of existance, while also representing the random nature of its actions. In sum, whether or not Sauron could defeat Tom, I think is similar to whether humans could destroy life on Earth. We're no match for its awesome power if it were to turn against us, but its very nature keeps it from directing that power to destroy us. At least so far as we know. 😅
Well Sauron took part in the creation, Tom was just the first being in Arda, but there is not much evidence of his power over Sauron aside from the dubious fact that he was unamused by the Ring, which while a powerful asset, was in a realm of which Tom was great, and also that Sauron relied on many more abilities aside from mere corruption. Had Tom gone into Sammath-Naur, the Realm of Sauron's Power, it would be no contest.
@@taelorpickel2830 Your assessment makes sense, but I think the idea that Tom was just kind of left in the story, means he's not really supposed to make sense within the rules of the lore. Rather, that Tolkien didn't feel it necessary make him fit to the rules. He just seems to me, like a character who's the personification of existence. Good or bad, doesn't register. He's just a character that does stuff. Gods and elves and men come up with plans and have goals, but a hurricane is just a thing that happens. Though I suppose if my interpretation is correct, maybe he'd be a bit more chaotic, and less compassionate. Hard to say.
Tom would never truly win as he wouldn't want to hurt sauron but I don't think sauron could do him any damage
I've always thought of Tom Bombadil as a sort of "Father Earth", a representation of the spirit of the very world. Tom claimed to have been there when the Elves first came over from Valinor. I believe he was created when the world was, in the Music of the Ainur, Arda personified. Despite everything he's seen over the ages, he cares about absolutely nothing other than the land itself, and his lady Goldberry (the water personified). The land is his one and only domain.
I would say BECAUSE of all he's seen over the ages he cares only about the land. It's the only thing that stays.
I feel the same way and im a little mistified that people worry over tom. Hes tom, nuff said. He is and he does and he has no truck with the wisps of social issues that come and go while the land remains.
Given we watched Tom make the ring vanish and come back (you can only imagine Sauron at that time - for a brief moment he ceased to exist then comes back like wtf just happened)
Tom wouldn’t attempt any conflict, rather ask which songs and legends he likes and if Sauron answers with violence, Tom would vanish.
But if Sauron engages with words and takes Tom’s tea, Tom would welcome him like a friend and no doubt talk/sing Sauron to eternity till both disappear
Hey there, Mairon fair! Mairon my own dear one.
Come follow merry Tom. Put down the name of Sauron!
Without the weight of iron helm, your head is lighter bare.
So come now friend, lay down your armour. Breathe the summer air!
Over field, across the river young Goldberry is waiting.
To hear us talk of Elder Days when the world was waking!
@@katherinegraham3803 Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
None has ever caught him yet, For Tom, he is the master:
his songs are stronger songs, and his feet are faster.
@@katherinegraham3803 Oh, bravo, beautifully done!
Beautiful!
I thought this too! Like the Hobbits saw it "disappear" but maybe it vanished from reality as well.
Hmm we should probably look to Saurons other battles that we know details of. 1st against Finrod Felagund. In this battle of Songs it goes back and forth between Sauron and a great Elf Lord but the Elf Lord does lose seemingly barely in the end. Then Sauron gets his Ass kicked by Huan the Hound and goes crying back to Daddy Morgoth. Sauron then obviously is defeated presumably by Eonwe in the final battle of Beleriand.
Then in the second Age Sauron gets taken out by GilGalad an elf lord and Elendil a Numenorian lord while he is in possession of the one ring and at the very pinnacle of personal power. Yes they both die as well but still they took him out and Isildur cut the ring from Saurons finger. I think Bombadil or Gandalf are more powerful than the combined power of Gilgalad and Elendil.
In the third age Sauron does not have the ring and is of greatly diminished personal power though he still has great strength of will that has allowed him to reform and move chess pieces on a board. Sorry but I believe that in this ringless state Gandalf or Bombadil could take out Sauron in a one on one match. It would be a battle of songs of power like with Finrod. Heck I think the Balrog if it had more will power and guile could have easily overthrown a ringless Sauron. Sauron is very inately powerful but he is more a planer and schemer and I question his actual might in a one on one battle.
And for ease of explanation I just always assume that Bombadil is just a maia of Yavanna gone natural. Yes he says stuff to the Hobbits about being the oldest and the first but really how much metaphysical detail of the Aiulindale do think he is going to be explaining.to the hobbits. Just because the other Maiar and Valar are also first does not mean Tom is not. Tom likely would have more power than Gandalf the Grey perhaps not as much as Gandalf the White.
When he fought Gil-galad and Elendil,he was still recovering from getting hit by Manwe's Lightning in the cataclysm that reshaped the world.
I always loved the Tom B. segment & his response to the ring. He didn't even care about the power, greed & evil. The original hippy.
Tom is both the spirit and the music of the Ainur itself. He is a personification of the music that the Ainur used to sing the world into existence, which is why he is always singing and whistling. He is living music and thus represents the very spirit of the land. There you have it.
Sauron may as well try to fight sound itself.
My theory is that Bombadil is the land itself incarnated into a physical body. Sort of a conscious Arda. Sauron can not destroy the land, only reshape it. In a fight, Bombadil could not be killed, but maybe forced to take another form. In the process, Sauron would expend a ton of energy and effort. But as the land is basically neutral, Sauron would likely choose to ignore Bombadil. This could explain how Bombadil can make the ring disappear, as it often did disappear and go missing under a mountain or a river. The land of can conceal treasure but not destroy it outright.
Gandalf the Gray said that Bombadil wouldn't win against Sauron but essentially at that point it would be the entire world against Tom Gandalf the White was wiser I think based on all the information if Tom had a stepped up during the war of the Rings he could have won a single-handedly but being omnipotent he knew he didn't have to and he knew that he could step up if they failed I think that in his many ages he has seen things darker than morgoth and Sauron. 😉 and never underestimate a soul that can't be corrupted
Keep in mind that Sauron with his One Ring was defeated 3 times in the Second Age. 1) around 1700 by Elves and Men in Eriador (Gil-galad, Elrond and Numenoreans); 2) in the 3260s by Ar-Pharazon and the host of Numenor; and 3) in the 3430s by The Last Alliance of Men and Elves. So I wonder, could Tom Bombadil withstand a Sauron who has not recovered the One Ring. But then, Tom would also have to defeat Sauron's hosts and the Nazgul. (I'm thinking of an alternate outcome where Frodo fails in his quest but the One is just lost again.)