Was Your Name Written in the Lamb's Book of Life Before the Foundation of the World?
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- Опубліковано 17 жов 2017
- Some Calvinists attempt to argue that all the elect's names are written down in the Lamb's book of Life before the foundation of the world, but is that what the text actually says? Let's take a look...
For more go to: wordpress.com/post/soteriolog...
The whole thing about the Lamb's Book of Life was another thing that gave me nightmares as a child. The idea that I could live my entire life trying to seek God, desperately wanting to submit to His authority, and then being told "Sorry, you're not on the guest list. To hell with you" on the last day terrified me beyond my ability to articulate.
Me too
yep... the *_entire_* purpose of this perverse heresy is get people to ask "hath God said" about John 5:24 and their obligation to believe (John 6:29)!
Yep. Same with the calvinist outrage over praying in repentance and faith to receive Christ and be born again. The idea that you could call out to God, turn your life over to him in faith, and obey and seek him....only to find out surprise! He never wanted to regenerate you, bye bye!
The whole philosophy is such a psychological train wreck. It replaces the deep warmth and nearness and invitation of God to a cold calculating and distant father.
@@jeremythompson5151 You are absolutely right brother.
I too have battled this feeling so many times. I thought that I was going to burn in the lake of fire forever. I thought, every time I sinned, it meant God didn’t choose me. calvanism terrifies so many people, especially children.
The Lord has really been patient with me, taking me to a place in life where your lessons are starting to click. I discovered your channel 2-3 years ago, subscribed but never gave your videos serious consideration because I was so steeped in calvinist teaching and respect for teachers like John Macarthur. But i’ve always been someone to keep an open mind and hear opposing views, so I subscribed. I’ve watched a few of your videos now, with full attention and a truly opened mind. Thanks Dr. Flowers. Everytime I watch a video I feel cleansed of a measure of confusion about God and like the love I had for God at conversion is being renewed.
Wow. So beautiful. Praise God
As a calvinist, I tip my hat to Dr. Flowers here and agree that this is not a good and responsible way to handle the Scriptures. I'm not saying I know Greek as well as Dr. Flowers, but if, indeed "apo" does not have the semantic range to include "before," then it shouldn't be translated that way, period.
Thank you so much for your work. I'm a very analytical person so when I come across scripture that I don't understandstand or that is controversial I can't move on until I figure out why! Romans 9 for example. This lead me to your channel and now I can't get enough. I never releized the calvistic bias my ESV bible has until following along with your breakdowns. God bless you brother, your ministtrt has really lifted several burdens. All glory to our heavinly father.
That’s why I like it. If I can defend my provisionist view using a more Calvinist(in some places) translation it makes my viewpoint even stronger
@@authorityfigure1630 What translation would you recommend in lieu of the ESV?
@@jamesstuchell8308 i personally prefer the ESV translation. Leighton would prefer NASB because it is more strictly literal
Very scary that they are changing words to suit man's theology. Definitely a reason NOT to use the ESV.
Rev 22:17 "If you add to the Word the plagues of this book will be added to you. If you subtract from the Word your name will be subtracted from the Book of Life." What a dire warning.
Have been verbally assaulted so many times, I have found many of them so foolish in their thinking, it would be too dangerous to carry a dialogue. Calvinism is a damnable heresy.
So good, so professional. Calvinism just took a direct hit. I hope it sinks back into the pit it originated from.
Todd , " calvinism just took a direct hit" the devils said a similar thing about the Lords crucifixion .
@@neilbeyers9786
Please explain....
That is a good point and glad to see this. However, Calvinism is not based on none scripture alone…
@@trevino37 But they do this all the time with Scripture! They change words like "all" and ,"world" to "elect" to fit their systenstic!! Totally changes verses like a John 3:16
Mind blown. Thank you so much. The passages on the book of life kept stumping me. Crazy how a small change in translation changes the whole meaning.
Never been a conundrum for me. Since the dawn of human history everyone who receives life through Christ is written into the Lamb's Book of Life. 🤷🏻♂️
Yes!!!
Deuteronomy 30: 19 "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: *therefore choose life* , that both thou and thy seed may live:"
I guess we could ask: Does an imperative in any english sentence ever not imply ability? Why give an imperative or even have a command at all if no ability is even present? It is a waste of words and pure nonsense if no ability is present. When we tell our children to do something, we expect them to make a decision and have an ability to choose hopefully an obedient reply. I can't think of any case in the English language where this implied ability is ever not present. God's command to choose life seems to teach that man has a free will to accept or reject God's terms. Telling a corpse to do stuff just doesn't seem to ever happen minus the Lazarus example or Ezekiel's dry bones, which is light-years away from teaching Calvinism. Dueteronomy here is speaking to living, breathing human beings. The choice is definitely implied.
+Ryan Gallmeier bro speak english. thank God Christ didn't speak as complicated as you and Leighton do. it's ridiculous. you Already know there are men who are not scholar's here and they need to understand what you're saying. how do u expect everyone to understand when you speak with large words. Paul didn't even speak like that. Neither did Christ. learn to speak with simple words. dang
@@boughtwithaprice9121 God's word also specifically explains the purpose of the law - to demonstrate sin / man's condition. It does not follow that we should expect other imperatives to be equally impossible. Nor does it follow that not being able to keep the law (which applies to ALL people not just the 'non-elect') means that it is impossible to recognize and admit that fact, and seek mercy and grace instead, which IS the imperative in question. God is not duplicitous or deceptive like that.
@@DjSostre7 the comment you responded to seems to be gone but I agree with the sentiment. I find this simple rule a good one. When possible, use smaller / lay-people's words. Often there are theological words that are easily mirrored with precision with simpler words. Sometimes there are words that contain more information that could not be restated with one or two simpler words, when that's the case, fine use the harder word instead of writing a sentence. I like those words. But for all the other 90% of theological words that can be clearly and precisely rendered with 1 or 2 other normal words, that should be done.
However, i whole heartedly disagree that Flowers is particularly guilty of this above anyone else. The popular calvinists in my estimation do it more, and if Leighton does it it's in response to them, and when responding to someone it's easy to argue that one might wish to use their terminology but define it, which he does. And to be fair they define their words at times too. When someone assumes their audience knows the terminology, if in fact they do, there's no problem except that I find it annoying and dumb, and somewhat elitist. The real issue is when one's language is clearly over-complicated and flowery in an utterly unhelpful way in order to appear smart and or obfuscate something. Usually it's just to appear ultra educated and thus, they think, authoritative.
@@StevenWayneJones Excellent way to word it!
Thank you sir. As a new Christian I struggle around the Calvinists. I know that if God would give His only Son for me then the same gift is for all people. And I couldn't
wrap my heart around
God "predestines people for hell".
In my life I was saved at a young age then became a back slider and as 52 rededicated myself to Christ. This was my choice. And God chose to forgive me. Thank you again.
Bless you brother Fingerz. My history is somewhat similar. Thank God for His grace, compassion, mercy and forgiveness.
Fingers..... Why? WHY would you let the doctrine of some people take the massive amount of grace from your gift? Let them know YOUR God is SO much greater and SO much more loving than theirs. Bask in the glory of His plan for ALL people. Stand in AWE of His plan of the cross to save all, not condemn 99% to everlasting torment.
You did not win the lottery brother. You were chosen, just like every other human, specifically picked out and adopted, but you accepted His grace. That's not luck. That's not arbitrary. That's overwhelming love. Something to be cherished. He's not a Tyrant. He's The Master but He gave you the ability to genuinely love Him OR reject Him. Bask in it.
Same here. Got saved in Sunday school, then turned into a teenager and went off the rails. Always knew Jesus was on the Throne. I lied to myself and said “if I’m not hurting anyone, it’s not sin”. So drinking to drunkenness, foul mouth, fornicating etc, ect. God showed me in His Word the deadly result of sin! Praise the Lord! If we confess or sins He will forgive us! Hallelujah!!! God delivered me from myself! Still a retched sinner, but born again! We fly soon brothers and sisters!!!
Wow, thank you so much. This is eye opening. I'm not a Calvanist, but this explanation of the correct Greek word, Apos, makes sense. It's so great to educate myself on this because I am better equipped to help Calvanists. I am so thankful to God for guiding me to your videos. I started sharing videos and my first one was the one you did about Allen Parr from the Beat. I was blown away by your video and so thankful to have found it.
Or just believe what the KJV says.
Thank you so much for this. Blessings to you all who watch this.
Thank you Ted.
I learned something new. Thank you, Dr. Flowers.
So this one has been tossed out a few times, so I wrote up a "note" on my computer to explain this one with all the sources and such for the next time it comes up. I'm also doing this for all other "go to" verses.
Interesting thing on "Bible Hub" there are 26 translations, and, as I read through them, I found they can be divided up into 3 categories
---------------------
1. "The ****LAMB**** slain FROM the creation of the world"
• 11 Translations
• Meaning ***the OWNERSHIP of the Physical book*** belongs to the Lamb and the LAMB was slain from the creation of the world
2. The translation that the main point in this video addresses: "All whose NAMES have been written FROM/SINCE the foundation of the world in the book of life"
• 12 translations
• Meaning the names have been written in the book of life *since* the foundation of the world, progressively using the *starting of the world* as the *starting point* much like at the end of the day saying "from/since the start of the day I have made a list."
3. "Everyone whose name has not been written BEFORE the foundation of the world"
• 3 translations: ESV, Contemporary English Version, Good news translation.
• The calvinistic interpretation
---------------------
So of 26 mainline English translations, only 3 render that particular translation.
While the other mainline translations are split almost right down the middle half and half (11 translations on #1 and 12 translations on #2) as you point out, the greek, and all other translations definitely don't agree with translation #3
Then, as you point out, the question becomes "why?" and the answer lies in the soteriology views of the translators.
Excellent investigation, bro!
When I look up the word 'apo' in strong's, it lists many words. One of them being 'before'. Can someone help explain this? It also lists 'from, after, ago, since. At, because of....
I found this very interesting. Thank you sir. Another tool in the tool belt to defend the faith
The Calvinistic bias of the ESV is NOT unintentional. The version's general editor is the most acknowledged Calvinist teacher today, James I. Packer. Toss your ESV and get an NASB or a (H)CSB.
I agree. My pastor (Calvinistic) gave me the ESV study Bible, which I used exclusively until recently. I noticed that the study notes seemed to have a Calvinistic bent to them. I mentioned that to my associate pastor (non-Calvinistic) and he told me that I was correct. I love both my pastors and there don't seem to be any conflicts in their preaching, but I prefer my Bible not to be Calvinistic in nature. I now own NKJV, NASB and KJV Bibles. I am really enjoying the NKJV. Thanks for telling me the Packer is the general editor of the ESV. Diane in North Carolina
HCSB study Bible seems pretty calvanistic on Ephesians 1
I use NKJV and Geneva. I will give the NASB another look. I use to think that it was just a mirror image of the NIV.
@@Thehappybirder The NIV and NASB are complete opposites. The NASB is a literal translation whereas the NIV is a dynamic translation (thought-for-thought, not word-for-word).
Every time I think, "hm maybe the reformed types have a point here", it turns out that when you look at scripture's context and original intent, their doctrine falls flat. Every time.
-Ology, -Osophy, -Ism, -Anity: Vanity, Inanity, Profanity, Insanity
Thank you so much for this quick video! Soooo helpful.
I would like yo hear the song complete what Is the song name?
Please help me out with this verse. Whether it says "before" or the more accurate "from" doesn't this verse make it seem that there is a pre-selection of the ones whos names are written in the Lamb's book of life?
Thank you Leighton Flowers. Awesome.
Thank you. I enjoy your videos and teachings. I think the verse is completely clear. The verse is not saying that names are written in the book of life from the foundation of the world but is saying that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.
Great work Dr Flowers. thank you
Psalm 139:16 "You saw me before I was born. Every day of my life was recorded in your book. Every moment was laid out before a single day had passed." NLT
Are you sure that the name's in the Lamb's book weren't written beforehand? The above passage is from the NLT.
Hello I recently found your channel and love it. I am actively sharing my faith and often encounter calvinists. I have learned so much. Thank you. Regarding this video, I have always thought that everyone was originally written in the Lamb's book of life. And that it doesn't matter if it was before or not because in the day of judgment it only matters if your name is "found" there. According to Rev. 3:5 we must be overcomers in order not to be "blotted" out of the book. This is not a works based salvation for how does scripture say we overcome? Rev. 12:11 "They overcame by the blood of the Lamb, and the word of their testimony and loved not their lives unto death."
So I'm fine with the calvinist saying our names were written in the Lamb's book of life "before" the foundations of the world. Because everyone's name was. However only those who through faith in the grace given at the cross and acted out by verbal confession (Rom.10:8-10) or testimony, remain written in the book. Your thoughts?
Some really good points here I hadn't considered before. Thank you.
It's not about confession or testimony it's ABOUT Believing Jesus Christ Saved you.
As soon as the People in Acts 10 believed they were filled with the Holy Spirit evidence of their Salvation Ephesians 1
ALSO the idea of Confession/testimony boils down to a Jewish concept found in the Bible
The Mouth speaks from that which fills The heart
If someone is Saved they Will articulate that faith but it's not the confession of faith that saves
The confession is the evidence or result of their saving faith.
The reason why Paul mentioned confession is that Many MANY Jews believed and were convinced about Christ Being the Messiah even the savior they "Believed"
yet we're not saved because they didn't believe in Him as Their Savior.
It's similar to an atheist who talks about Jesus Being The real God But they don't believe in Him as savior as of yet.
They believe the truth of Christ but they haven't believed it for Themselves.
Like the Catholic
They believe Truth about Jesus He's God they believe He's the Savior but They believe they can Save themselves with Works.
THESE are the kinds of "believers" in John 6 and Mathew 7.
They believed in His name But were not confessing Him for fear of the pharisees putting them out of the synogogue. So instead of coming to Jesus for salvation they suppressed that truth and continued to try to "earn Heaven" Resulting in condemnation.
That's why Jesus said don't be Afraid of man who can ONLY kill you be afraid of God who can Both kill you and throw you in Hell. And then later explaining calling him Lord and obeying Him cannot save you.
@@eliasbarrasa7320 I agree totally with every word you said. That's exactly why Paul said "for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." It's not about just saying words. There's no special magical prayer. I think the old children's song says it perfectly. "If you're saved and you know it, then your life will surely show it."
@@jesuscross9
That's awesome I happy to know you're Saved May Jesus shine in you brother/sister and make our Father proud
That is my understanding as well.
True; so biased a version. In most versions, Revelation 13:8 positions "from the foundation of the world" towards the end of the verse, meaning it refers to Christ and the already designed plan of salvation through His sacrifice. No way does "from the foundation of the world" refer to people and their names, in most versions.
Very enlightening. Thanks
Leighton, are there more places in the ESV where the Greek was translated incorrectly to support their claims? I have always used the NIV, but our new church uses ESV gave that Bible translation to my son. Just curious, which you use, and if the ESV has done this more. I do not want my children struggling with Truth because of an untrustworthy translation. I tried looking into it before, if ESV is calvanist leaning, but didn't find much other than calvanists just like the word for word translation of ESV.
Thanks!
SEEMS THAT THE NAMES ARE ALREADY WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE "FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD" ...Yet some will be blotted out
***(REVELATION 17:8 ) The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and ***they that dwell on the earth shall wonder***, ***whose names were not written in the book of life** from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
***( EXODUS 32:33 )- And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
***( Psalms 69:28 ) Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.
Calvinism ruined my view on God till I read the Bible for myself. (My family are reformed Calvinist) im reading from my nasb bible and it says before Eph 1:4 hmm i never realized that before. Wow. Calvinist change to fit Calvin’s view. Soon they will change all to elect. Just watch. Okay I’m still confused of what that means, from the foundations of the world? Can someone help me. Thanks.
Rev 17:8
KJV,Revalation 17:8
whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Names>book>foundation of the book/
The book was MADE FROM the foundation of the world,it speaks of the book being made from the foundstion of the world, not of the names written from the found.,when God founded the world then He made a book.
When reading multiple times over the verse it makes it clear.. on the start the mind supposes it speaks of the Names wrriten from the foundation insted of the names written(gradually) in the book which was made from the foundation of the world.
Jesus Christ is who was chosen from the foundation of the world. The sins of the whole world are paid for at the cross of Calvary!! God bless!! :)
Awesome Video! Kudos to Leighton Flowers. Great insight. Thank you!
Brother Leighton can I invite you to have a short interview with you on our page about Calvinism?
What’s a good Bible translation to use then? I’ve been using ESV for years.
The King James Bible, the only Bible for English speaking people.
@@marcc325 I use both NKJV and KJV now :-)
The king James version calls the Holy Spirit an it, so I wouldn't recommend it.
Thanks for the teaching
Praise God Amen
Still okay to use ESV after revelations? Erase & Just write it on
This made me get rid of my esv.
I have the 2001, and it's fantastic. The 2016 and 2018, no. Horribly biased translations. The 2001 has 'from'.
I personally like the NRSV, do you think it's a good translation?
@@shaunbutler238 whaddup, Shaun!
BBM can you recommend a good study Bible i.e. version and type? So many choices - archaeological, systematic etc. I was going to go for esv but the more I hear of it I'm not so sure about it's Calvinist slant. What's your opinion on systematic study bibles? Thanks for reading this
Galatians 3:24 and 1 John 3:9 are two that made me toss mine.
Love your videos!
Geez, I have been using ESV for years. I had no idea. What version is the safest to use? Please someone tell me.
If in doubt, the KJV or NKJV are the safest bet.
NIV 2011 or NASB
Currently KJV and NKJV are the only English translations that use textus receptus (the bulk of ancient manuscript copies are TR). Most other translations use other sources simply because they are “older”. The argument is the “older” manuscripts mean they are closer to the original. But these “older” texts tend to leave out key phrases which some argue are important while others don’t. I can’t remember this gentleman’s name but he went into great detail (like multiple hour long lectures) explaining the differences and showing how there are entire sentences in KJV that do not appear in other modern translations (this is all NT by the way the OT is pretty much the same across the board). I followed the lectures while looking through my Bible App and he was right. I am hoping the Berean translation (found on Bible Hub) uses textus receptus because it is really good at using plain English and they are planning on going to print late this year. Sorry for the rant. Moral of the story, google textus receptus.
@@kevinlucas9905 Um let me explain something to you. First off KJV was translated using manuscripts that are only a few hundred years old not a thousand. Second of course the older are going to be more accurate these translations were hand copied meaning people got lazy, they left words, added things in etc. It's not a printer where every copy comes out the same
The ESV is still a wonderful, Hebrew/Greek faithful text. Every translation has its discrepancies and exegetical biases. The committees make theological interpretations no matter what translation you prefer. The beauty of the ESV is that it remains “true” enough to the original languages like the NASB, but knocks the edge off of the “woodeness” of the translation the way the NASB doesn’t.
This is the only verse in the ESV that I would say comes across with a Calvinistic bias, unless anyone can direct me to something else that I haven’t seen? I preach from it weekly, and I’m a provisionist.
So all believers FROM the foundation of the world are saved!!! Praise Jesus!!!
See also related Ancient Near East understanding of the Book of Life as a citizenship roll, by Dr Michael Heiser (another name that sends James White into conniptions)
Is pre destination calvinist theology a damnable herressay?
So what about Eph 1:4? It says we were chosen before the foundation in the KJV. I know we’re not chosen before the foundation. It’s only after you believe. So how do we defend this verse where it says before?
The key to Ephesians 1:4 is "in him". Jesus Christ was chosen before the foundation of the world to save all those who believe. Sure, the revelation is progressive but even Job knew who to place his trust in... God Almighty!! God bless!! :)
@@marcc325 Thx. I knew the in him was important. That we have to be in him. So are you saying the “before” the foundation is referencing Christ? And the “we were” chosen is referencing us if we are believers?
A transcript of this video would be very helpful to me since my dominant learning mode is visual.
Is John MacArthur confident that his name is on the book of Life?
Most translations have Revelation 13:8 translated like the KJV and that includes the Modern Greek Version.
Great work. Thanks. You have given me one more in a growing list of reasons why the ESV is not one of my favorite Bible versions. Translators are human beings, bringing with them their preferences and theological presumptions, which naturally appear in their work.
Craig Bailey
Can you give me some other reasons/items on your list for why ESV is not your favorite?
What version would you recommend?
I have been a little Leery of ESV since i noticed that it seems to be the version that all Calvinists use. And theorized that there must be some reason that this one group is drawn to this 1 specific translation. But until watching this video, I did not have any real basis for that caution. Though I have looked, i have not been able to find anything online other than this video about whether they translate some verses to have a more Calvinistic leaning. There have been a couple of verses that I have found on my own that the ESV translation seem to have a more Calvinistic leaning than the same verse in NIV. For instance Matthew 23:37 (the difference between God longing to gather jerusalem under his wing and. And would have gathered) one shows a desire on God’s part. The other just states that he would have.
But I am not a greek scholar. I can’t tell which is more accurate.
I ask because i am not a Calvinists, but am married to one and go to a Calvinistic church. I have asked my husband if we can use some other translations when studying together and teaching our children/memorizing scripture together. He is okay with reading other translations with me but only wants to memorize in esv. I think if i had a few more valid reasons for being cautious he might take my hesitation more seriously.
@@HK-cx3ws I have the same questions that you have. So far the only translation people are pointing me to is KJV, but I wish there was a better one that was more easily understood
There is a digital only ISV (International Standard Version) that I really like. I grew in faith, first on KJV, then in NIV 1984 edition only, now ISV. I still consult most translations/transliteration as comparison. Find one you are comfortable with and don't worry about pinpoint accuracy, because there is no perfect translation. I took New Testament Greek and it's still unclear on difficult passages/concepts because so much more than word substitution is required. Let the Holy Spirit piece together your doctrines/beliefs from the Word you are memorizing. Your job is to read/know his Word, his job is to construct it into a whole, piece by piece.
That is a good point addressed which now makes me wonder on the reliability of the ESV version which I just started using. However, Calvinism is not based on this one scripture alone.
Dr. Flowers. I have another take on this narrative on the Lamb's book of life. Question: If only saved people's names are in the book of life, then how are names blotted out if we have eternal security(which I believe is the clear teaching of scripture)? I think a better argument against Calvinistic predetermination is that everyone's name start's out in the Lamb's book of life and whenever a person dies without Christ or becomes reprobate( beyond saving) their name is blotted out. I think this also answers other questions such as the salvation of babies and children who are not to the age of accountability. Seems pretty consistent. What do you think?
Mark Baker THAT IS AN AWESOME POINT!!! Thank you soooo much. As someone literally begging God daily to get out of Calvinism I haven't heard this and it gives me some hope! 💗😢
Mark Baker - that is my conclusion, because it is more Biblical.
@@jeanmariechopin5080 how is it that one can beg God to get out of calvinism? seems to me if you want out, or rather if you don't believe, then .... you're just out. I guess if that's your family / church / community it could be slightly more difficult but even then.... first world problems. no one's going to kill you for having a different opinion. I was leaning that way and then Leighton's work as well as others helped me to clearly see the errors and I went, "oh, ok. I guess I'm not a calvinist." boom.
@@Artcore103 congratulations, that's so profound 🙄
I tend to agree with this AND the point that they are not written before the foundation of the world.
The verse reads, " ...slain from the foundation of the world." Does not reference when any names are written. 'Foundation' modifies 'slain'.
2 Timothy 1:9 (KJV) 9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus BEFORE the world began,
Thanks for this!
One of the more interesting videos I’ve seen. I have never considered the “From” and “Before” difference. I am not sure it changes my interpretation on anything as I am not a Calvinist but it is still an interesting distinction I’ve not paid attention to.
I also made a notation in Rev of the correction.
Tiny words make vast difference
What about Jeremiah 1:5
Peradventure how ones name can be blotted out of the book of life, if it was never in the book of life as determinism would dictate?
There's the book of Life then there's the Lamb's book of Life. Two different books.
@@marcc325
There are many books (even a nook of tears) but only one book if life.
Also, if you're going to be sola scriptura, at least make sure you're reading an accurate translation of the Bible.
Thanks for this.. I am not a calvinist, but I use the ESV, and was unaware of this error, and of the contradiction in the ESV between 13v8 and 17v8. You are more gracious than I am brother Leighton, because I believe that calvinist teachers are often well aware that they are using deceptive wordcraft Calvinism seems to provide for them a theological comfort - zone which they are unwilling to have challenged, and are willing to defend their theology with sophistry rather than with truth. At the same time I am not convinced that the KJV is free from a number of errors. Any suggestions dear brethren?
I've been perplexed for some time that the ESV, which I too use, has before in 13:8 but from like most other translations in 17:8. Not only is 13:8 wrong but they aren't even consistent in the identical Greek just 4 chapters later.
I would love some input from Dr. Leighton
@@johnnogueras3250 Same. I commented about this before reading some of the other comments. What's the deal with this in the ESV @Soteriology101?
This is why I use a few different ones when I come across something difficult to understand. I use NASB most of the time. And I have an NLT with cross references I find very helpful. And I have another with 4 different translations in it it. KJV, NIV, NLT, NASB. My husband likes ESV. Funny, cuz this is the one area we don’t agree on. 😅
This is very disturbing to me that the translation 'error' was made in the ESV.
Oddly enough, looking at the legacy standard bible(macarthur) on bible gateway, revelation 13:8 says "from", not "before"
Ask a Calvinist does he love his unsaved child? How does it feel to love someone that God doesn’t?
The devil came to Eve and asked, "Did God really say..." filling her head with doubt concerning what God said. The word of God contains what God has said. Many read what God clearly has said and ask, "Did God really say..."
Very interesting piece of information to note. I never knew the difference. Luckily I am not fond of ESV. I use NLT, AMP, and KJV most
It really is ALL ABOUT GOD!
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Have you ever experienced deja vu? I have experienced it many times in my life since I was a boy and still do at 64. It always happens when I go to a place I've never been to before. I concluded a long time ago that God is showing me glimpses of my future life long before it happens. Now I don't make anything of that, except that God knows the future before it happens.
Predestination has to be true, otherwise God isn't omniscient. The thing about predestination is that God is the only one who knows how it turns out. We are not privy to it. Therefore, we have to live our lives one moment at a time, constantly making choices that we have no idea we will be faced with until we are faced with them. And we have no idea what choices we will make until we make them. But God already knows.
God knew exactly what would happen in the garden of Eden. That is why he put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil there. And He didn't have to let the serpent in Eden. It was in the plan of salvation from the beginning. Adam's sin wasn't a failure of God. It was His plan. And that is why Revelation says that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world. It was already in the plan. It is all about us coming back to God in repentance and falling on His mercy; and who will and who won't.
Think of this world as a movie, that has an "in the beginning" and a "the end." God is the producer and director of this movie. He has plugged it in and now it is playing. He already knows the whole epic story. God is not confined to time the way we are. He see's it all at once.
The word "freewill" or the term "free will" are nowhere in the Bible. But the terms "will of God" or "His will" are found 35 times. God chose us before we chose Him.
Ac 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as WERE ORDAINED to eternal life believed.
2Th 2:13 ¶ But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because GOD HATH FROM THE BEGINNING CHOSEN YOU TO SALVATION through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Joh 6:44 NO MAN CAN COME TO ME, EXCEPT THE FATHER WHICH HATH SENT ME DRAW HIM: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, ACCORDING TO THE GOOD PLEASURE OF HIS WILL,
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, BEING PREDESTINATED ACCORDING TO THE PURPOSE OF HIM WHO WORKETH ALL THINGS AFTER THE COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL:
Ro 8:29 ¶ For WHOM HE DID FOREKNOW, HE ALSO DID PREDESTINATE to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom HE DID PREDESTINATE, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Joh 17:24 ¶ Father, I will that they also, WHOM THOU HAS GIVEN ME, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
1Pe 1:2 ELECT ACCORDING TO THE FOREKNOWLEDGE OF GOD THE FATHER, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Eph 1:4 According as HE HAS CHOSEN US IN HIM BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was FOREORDAINED BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Mt 13:35 THAT IT MIGHT BE FULFILLED which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter THINGS WHICH HAVE BEEN KEPT SECRET FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.
Mt 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, COME, YE BLESSED OF MY FATHER, INHERIT THE KINGDOM PREPARED FOR YOU FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD:
Lu 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although THE WORKS WERE FINISHED FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.
Re 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose NAMES ARE NOT WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE OF THE LAMB SLAIN FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.
Re 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, WHOSE NAMES WERE NOT WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Mt 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for THE ELECT's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mt 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive THE VERY ELECT.
Mt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Lu 18:7 And shall not God avenge HIS OWN ELECT, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
Ro 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of GOD's ELECT? It is God that justifieth.
Col 3:12 ¶ Put on therefore, as THE ELECT OF GOD, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Mt 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few CHOSEN.
Mt 22:14 For many are called, but few are CHOSEN.
Mr 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for THE ELECT's sake, whom HE HATH CHOSEN, he hath shortened the days.
1Co 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But GOD HATH CHOSEN the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and GOD HATH CHOSEN the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, HATH GOD CHOSEN, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 THAT NO FLESH SHOULD GLORY IN HIS PRESENCE.
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written, HE THAT GLORIETH, LET HIM GLORY IN THE LORD.
Jas 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not GOD CHOSEN the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
1Pe 2:9 But YE ARE CHOSEN generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
Re 17:14 ¶ These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and CHOSEN, and faithful.
Re 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I AM GOD, AND THERE IS NONE ELSE; IAM GOD, AND THERE IS NONE LIKE ME, 10 DECLARING THE END FROM THE BEGINNING, AND FROM ANCIENT TIMES THE THINGS THAT ARE NOT YET DONE, SAYING, MY COUNSEL SHALL STAND, AND I WILL DO ALL MY PLEASURE.
Ro 9:4 ¶ What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then IT IS NOT OF HIM THAT WILLETH, nor of him that runneth, BUT OF GOD THAT SHEWETH MERCY.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 THEREFORE HATH HE MERCY ON WHOM HE WILL HAVE MERCY, AND WHOM HE WILL HE HARDENETH.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath FITTED TO DESTRUCTION:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, WHICH HE HAD AFORE PREPARED unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Is there any Bible verse that says, that peoples names WERE written in the book of life from the foundations of the earth. We have verses that say that names were NOT written in the book of life. Nobody’s names were written in the book of life until we believed right? So what I think this means is that those who’s names were never written in the book of life because they never believe.
Actually, Rev 13:8 refers to end-time believers. Therefore, the phrase “written from the foundation of the world”, could not refer to their names being written when they believed; it must refer to “their” names being written from the beginning because they are the focus here.
So the teaching here is that what the verse really means is, "everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world [up until the moment when the individual makes a choice] in the book of life..." Correct? If that's so, then it's our choice that determines what God is writing.
Why, then, does this verse reverse the order by saying that they will not worship the beast, those whose names are written? Wouldn't it have been simpler just to stay that if we refrain from beast worship, then our names will be written? I guess what I'm asking is--what is John trying to emphasize here by reversing the order of operations?
Also, the NIV translates the word "sarx" which ALWAYS means "flesh" so it says "sinful nature", and that's a blatant insertion that even seems to imply gnosticism's point that flesh is inherently sinful, and therefore, Jesus would have not come in the flesh. Catholicism modified this to instead say that Jesus was born of Holy flesh from Mary and therefore elevates her to de facto divinity in order to keep this gnostic idea of "flesh = sinful nature". Calvinism modified this to say that guilt is directly inherited from Adam through the flesh (most half-Calvinists believe this too) and so is total inability to choose to confess moral depravity and a need for Jesus because being in the flesh prevents them from doing so.
To be fair, Paul referred to being saved from his "body of death" which causes him to sin so it does seem that in many instances "sinful nature" is a legitimate--if not literal--translation.
So are you saying God is writing the book of life as the age progresses and God does not know whose name is going to be in the book of life? Therefore, omniscient God does not know whose name will be in the book of life? If he knew, then there would be no reason to write the book as the age progresses. It looks like you do not answer questions in this format, but I still thought I would ask.
Honestly you did not give me the answer I want. I wanted to know how is that my name already ( from the foundation of the world)written in the book of the Lamb before I started to believe in Christ?
All you explained here is different from & before.
😢😢😢
Dr Flowers, Love you in the lord but please, they did not do it un-intentionally. It was on purpose to fit their theology. Which means they have altered scripture. Isn't that serious? They are putting theology over scripture. They have done the same as the J/W in John 1:1 in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was "A" God. After seeing this I am convinced now that calvinism at any level is heresy.
The bias could be unintentional. If you have a preconception about what a text means, it can be difficult to set that aside when doing translation work
@@hawkdsh With all the people (scholars, pastors) checking it over and over still missing it, with Greek software being utilized and missing it, how can it not be intentional?
I've been a fan of ESV, so I'm disheartened to see these issues, but not surprised. Time to get a King James.
Best book buy you’ll ever make’
!
That intro mann💯💯💯
Ephesians 1:4 reads ( according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world ) this is from the KJV. And you say this is wrong?
Please explain Revelation 3:5
πρὸ
pro...."before the foundation of the world....Eph 1:4"
"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world..."
Were we, who believe, chosen "before" the foundation of the world or "from" the foundation of the world?
This is in reference to man being chosen from before?
The focus in that passage is “in Him”. Close to 10 times repeated in that passage. We were not chosen “to be in Him”. Flowers compares it to a flight destined for a certain place, not whom will be on the flight. Only thing predestined is that we would be holy, blameless etc.
@@clwhite1127 Well said. That was really helpful thank you.
Thank you!
NIV and Young's Literal translation say that from from the foundation of the world is meaning Christ was from the beginning not the Lamb's Book was
Please also look at the word katabole “ meaning the overthrow of the world “.There are different dispensation of time from Genesis 1:1 to Genesis 1:2 . The earth became void and without form.
The ESV's failing here is disappointing when I prefer it for its textual choices such as at Deuteronomy 32:8 and Jude 5
So I have a very serious question. If you say that calvinists they change the meaning of the word or they changed the word like from or before wouldn't it be safe to assume that Calvinistic teaching is heresy and those who are teaching the Calvinistic views are teaching teaching anti-Bible. Because if you consciously knowingly change what the word initially means or the content of that meaning then you're doing it knowing what you're doing. Because it's not like all those calvinists like John mccarthur or John Piper do not understand Hebrew and not know what the original word supposed to mean. So if they know the original meaning in Hebrew just like you do doctor flowers. So what does it mean that John mccarthur is teaching heresy qnd cavanosts are not our our brothers
Slain from or before the foundation of the world, could have been reference to the Passover occuring before the Feast of Unleavened Bread. It isnpossible, Paul used the Passover and Feast of Unleavened Bread, coupled with the Creation narrative in Genesis 1, as theological basis for his statement that the Lamb was slain (i.e. Passover) before the first day of creation (first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread).
So the lamb was slain from the foundation of the world?
Its all meaningless word gymnastics these people try to play. This doctrine is what literally separates Christianity from every other fake religion -- salvation truly is a free gift from God which you can neither choose to have nor work for. It's God who saves, not our choices.
@@AMessengerofTruth
Strange.
When it's shown to be an error on calvinists part it is "word games" followed by your proclamation to the contrary.
Aa far as I know your words are NOT inspired 😂
What?
We're supposed to take your word for it OVER inspired Scripture?
Silliest thing I've read for quite some time, and just proves that Calvinists do not believe in Scriptural Authority!.
You believe something else,
Just not the Bible.
Take care
Yes the Book of Life would not be the book of election (of those ultimately saved) since u can b blotted out of the book of life, but u could not b blotted out of God's book of foreknowledge, unless the open theists r right?
Από = from; out of; since; of. So in this context it means from. End of story, Nothing to do with before.
I think the king James version does this verse best not a kjv onlyiest
Revelation 13:8
8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world
Amen Amen Amen!
I'm King James only. All the modern versions are satanically corrupt.
Good. The Lamb and the efficacy of the atonement (not limited) are from the foundation.
If you have a problem acknowledging that God knows the end from the beginning, make an attempt to get your head around that of all the billions of people who have ever lived, each person will stand before God and give account for their sins. In our human way of thinking that would take forever, but God is outside of time, he is separate from all that he has created. Those who have problems with Calvinism tend to think that God is mostly a more powerful version of a man, but we are unlike God in his eternal attributes. We can simply not grasp the eternal work of God who "who works all things according to the counsel of his will", and that includes you and me.
I don’t think Dr. Flowers or anyone I know doesn’t believe that God knows the beginning to the end. I know there are sects that believe he doesn’t but that’s kind of a straw man in this case don’t you think?
Because we are "in Him." Also works does not mean "determines." If it meant determines, He would have said so.
Calvinism makes God look weak. God does that need a stacked deck. He created everything in 6 days. Pretty sure he can judge trillions in less than that.
Dear Brother in Christ, please explain to us the Ephesians 1:4 (King James Version)
1:4 According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:
He has chosen us to be holy.
key phrase ... in Him. he didn't chose us "to be" in him, he just us "that are" in him to something ... and that is to be holy and without blame. so all who come to Christ are chosen to be holy, because we are "in him"
@@bigdogboos1 see the timeline Bro, before the foundations of the world.....He chose....
@@pjetri24 Before the foundation of the world is the key , timeline .....is specified
Please read Roman Chap 9,
Not by works , but by election.....
The 2001 ESV has 'from'. The Calvinists horribly mistranslated it in their last update with obvious bias. Luke 24:47 is a big one. In 2001 it was "repentance and..." and not "repentance for...". HUGE difference.
Oh wow
Makes sense, the esv is the ecv
The names of all God's future children of promise were written in the book of life at the foundation of the world before human beings existed.
I don’t even know if my name is written in it right now. 🤷♂️
Yes, I believe in the Lambs book of life. Do you believe in Tongues? Respons-ability! You just got some light!
Can we not please write off the ESV while appropriately addressing its areas for improvement. There are elements about the ESV that are wonderful that the others completely miss also.
The ESV is a satanically corrupt modern version. If you want to be deceived then go for the ESV. The King James Bible is the pure word of God for the English speaking language. God bless!! :)
Well if God knew who shall be saved from eternity then it is no argument for predetermination to salvation at all... How on earth is that an argument for anything but for security of salvation.
you are right
Only if you’re not one of the elect but the dreaded reprobate deceived who are really one of non elect. You got in the wrong line at birth
I see your point. “Before” is terrible if your name is not on the book. But what about if there is no heaven and hell? But your name has already been put in the lamb’s book of life before the foundation of life? Isn’t it “before” is better than “from”? You are then proving that the love of God is so great because of “before”?
Thank you for your explanation. However, I can not see the difference you claim. I am not arguing with you, I just cannot see the difference. Both "before" and "from" are used before man was formed. What I cannot understand is why a person who loves God with all the heart will be sent to Hell. I see an explanation from the earlier statement you presented from Calvin that it is to honor God; that is, all of us deserve Hell, but God gets glory by saving some from Hell. Keep in mind that I am not arguing, only trying to get it straighten out in my mind. I know I love God with all my heart and it is a heart felt love, but have I been pre-determined (ordained) to be assign a place in God's kingdom? I pray almost continually for mercy.
_”Why a person who loves God with all the heart will be sent to Hell”_
What makes you say that though? I don’t believe such a person would go to hell. If a person truly loved God with all of their heart and mind that is. But who can really claim such? Are you willing to be judged based on that claim?
Romans 3:19-20
”Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
Every person sins. You are betraying yourself if you think you do not. But God loves you still and He wants you with Him! For God so loved the world (including you) that he sent His only Son Jesus Christ to taste death for every person (including you) and to bear the sin of the whole world (including your sin) on the cross, and Jesus shed his blood to be the payment for your sin and for the sin of the world. This is the assurance that God will forgive us our sin and accept us as His children if we put our trust in Christ and in his blood that was shed once and for all.
Romans 3:21-25
”But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God”
So why not trust Christ for your salvation? He is the answer for your prayers of mercy. He is what you have been praying for! Once you believe on Him you shall receive the Holy Spirit as the seal of your heavenly inheritance. And you will be resurrected from the dead just as Christ was raised, and so you shall be with Him forever! God bless you!
As to your question about the names being written from the foundation of the world... the point is NOT that all of the names are written at the beginning of the world, but that they been being written ever since the foundation of the world.
Starla Lowry you wrote that you love God with all your heart and you're wondering if you have a predetermined place in his kingdom.. if you heard and accepted the gospel and became saved, you now belong to God and now are part of his family 🙏 you received your salvation and everlasting life because you accepted the truth of the gospel, not because God predetermined you for his kingdom as the Calvinists insist. Only the words of Jesus can be trusted and his promise of everlasting life is Rock solid because God is perfect and cannot lie.
The purpose of the video is to clarify the verse, Revelation 13:8. It is saying “All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written [since] the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain” . Names were not written before the foundation, but names have been written SINCE the beginning.
God desires all to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth and commands people everywhere to repent. He does not wish that any should perish but that all should reach repentance (1 Timothy 2:4, Acts 17:30, 2 Peter 3:9). God knows your heart. My encouragement to you is, Romans 10:9 “because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” Ask yourself, is Jesus Lord over my life? Do I truly believe in his death and resurrection on my behalf? Bring your uncertainty to God and he will help you see. “You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.” Jeremiah 29:13. Lay it all down before him. Reading the book of 1 John may help you, too. Prayed for you, friend.
Great!
If ESV is erroneous, why not use KJV only? 🤔🤔🤔
its not about being "chosen" for salvation (granted, many are called but few are chosen). He has known from the start those would truly believe and those who reject the gospel and those who merely add Jesus to their life - instead of making Him their life. We know not all will be saved. Neither Calvinism or Armenian-ism are correct. Those whom He foreknew He predestined.