The 5 Points that Led Me Out of Calvinism | Leighton Flowers | Soteriology 101
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- Опубліковано 26 вер 2017
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11:20 - POINT 1 - The Foresight View (looking through the corridors of time) was not the only scholarly alternative to the Calvinistic understanding of providence. There is also the Corporate View of Election (includes groups and individuals), also called the Election to Service view.
14:33 - POINT 2 - There's a distinction between Total Depravity (Original Sin) and Total Inability. The verses that Calvinist use to support Total Inability are really verses that support the doctrine of Judicial Hardening (not a natural condition from birth). The Jews were being hardened in order to bring the Gospel to all: Jews and Gentiles (The Jews if provoked to envy and the Gentiles who have faith will be 'grafted in'). There's also a distinction between God's choice to bring His message through certain messengers (and the means used to choose such messengers) vs. God's determining those who are responsible to believe that message.
20:46 - POINT 3 - Humbling yourself (repenting in faith) is NOT a meritorious work (the prodigal son didn't deserve the father's grace in taking him back). God has sovereignly chosen to show grace to those who have faith. Those who have faith still deserve Hell. My faith doesn't make me 'better' than those who don't have faith; the word 'make' presupposes non-libertarian freedom and so it begs the question against the libertarian.
25:27 - POINT 4 - Givers get full credit for giving gifts even if rejected by some. The condition of faith does not steal any glory from God's giving of the gift of grace. God gets all glory because God chooses to save us in the middle of the pig stye of our lives if we have faith. This absolutely excludes the legitimacy of boasting.
29:00 - POINT 5 - God's attribute of Sovereignty is not an Eternal Attribute of God that's compromised by creatures with libertarian freedom. Sovereignty is not meticulous control, it is His right to rule (have dominion) over His creation. Thus, prior to the decree, He isn't sovereign over creation until creation is created. Therefore, Sovereignty is not an 'eternal' attribute. All things will be put under Christ's feet in the future through Christ's victory through the cross. For now, God has permitted that the world to man and the dark principalities (Ps. 115, verse 16; Eph. 6, verse 12).
Dr. Leighton Flowers, Director of Apologetics for Texas Baptist and Professor of Theology for Trinity Seminary, recounts the 5 points that helped to lead him away from his Calvinistic beliefs.
Leighton was a Calvinist for over a decade and served as a minister in a Reformed Baptist Church before engaging in a 3 year study on the subject. Years after leaving Calvinism he went back to school at New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary where he wrote his Doctoral dissertation on Soteriology and specifically the rise of Calvinism within the Southern Baptist Convention.
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If anyone has a problem with you leaving Calvinism, just remind them that you were predestined to do so.
Love this!
Lol
Ha ha
Wrong view of calvinism
😂
My older brother and I became Christians in our thirties. We both started out as Armenians. My brother's church moved into Calvinism over a period of time. I was at one of their men's breakfast at his church one morning listening to them convince each other that they were right and all Armenians were going to hell. I knew most of the 30 men that were in attendance there. After about an hour of listening I asked a question: "how many of you men started out as Armenians?" Nearly all of them raised their hands. Then I asked "Were you not saved then? Did you only become saved when you believed in Calvinism?" I continued to raise questions like "at what point in your Calvinistic journey did you become saved, at one point, or two, or three or was it five?" "As Armenians did you not trust in Christ and Christ work on the cross, and in his Grace? Did you not believe then that you were saved by grace through faith, but now you believe that you are saved by grace through faith ONLY if you become a Calvinist? Were all of the people who gave their hearts to Jesus before John Calvin appeared on the earth not saved? Did Jesus say "For whosoever believes in Him (Jesus) and ONLY those who adhere to the Calvinistic doctrine shall be saved?"
It became very quiet in that room. My final question was "Is it not WHO you believe in and not WHAT you believe in that brings salvation?" My final point is this: yes I believe that we need to learn what the scriptures really teach, and doctrine is very important, but we must be careful not to have a greater relationship with our doctrine than with the One the doctrine is about, because that becomes (in my mind) idolatry.
Show Cat yup!
Impressive story, I like how you were able to break that down to your group
Well said!
*Arminians. Armenians come from Armenia.
It's all about Jesus Christ. His gift of salvation was in His Blood. In his Blood was his DN@. In His DN@ was His Father's SEED. The Seed was His Name, His Spirit & all the attributes of God. The Seed was the currency with which He purchased the souls of Adam's descendants & The Seed was the weapon with which He crushed the Serpent's kingdom (dominion). While bleeding to death on the cross, He SOWED His Father's SEED into the EARTH (we are made from Dust of the Earth). Downloading His DN@ Code = Data into our DN@. Ratifying God's Covenant with Abraham. To bless many nations thru Abraham's Seed. FAITH activates God's SEED (God Gene), establishing His Kingdom within us. But before the Seed can take Root (of Judah), the Soil must be broken & circumcised (heart). Therefore REPENT & Believe The Gospel. So that God's Kingdom may grow & bear Fruit within you (head to toe = DN@). It's a Blood Covenant. His Blood flows in our Blood. If you will be allow Him to be the Lord & you will be the Servant & not the other way around.
Calvinism has nothing to do with salvation. I am saved before I ever knew there was such a thing as calvinism. Calvinist theologians preaches Calvin and Calvinism/reformed theology. The Bible teaches Jesus Christ and the gospel.
Exactly. This is secondary theology that just doesn’t really matter. Whether you believe
God predestined you to come to him or that you chose out of free will, it doesn’t matter. What matters is the gospel of Jesus Christ and living by the bible. It only becomes a problem once one side starts saying the other side isn’t saved for not having their theology.
Same, I live here in Europe and never heard calvinism until I started watch UA-cam sermons from john piper ect
@@brooke4608 The implications of Calvinism make "living by the Bible" look very different under Calvinism than traditional Christianity
@@peterfox7663 it won’t affect your salvation, but it could make things more difficult if your theology isn’t correct
@@brooke4608 Right -- you said the only problem is when it affects your opinion of salvation, and that we should live by the Bible. Living life by Calvinism *is* another problem.
I am so thankful that God led me to this video. I have been a believer for 40 years (didn’t accept Christ until my 30’s) and had never been subjected to Calvinistic teaching until a new pastor came to our church 3 years ago. I was shocked by his teaching of limited atonement and absence of free will. My husband is an elder and tried to have an intelligent conversation regarding our belief that God loves everyone and gives us the choice of whether or not to accept His free gift of salvation and he was dismissed as “sub-biblical.” When my husband asked pointed questions or referenced scripture that refute this doctrine, he was told it was “too complicated” for him to understand. Every sermon is bathed in this doctrine, as all scripture is seen by him through this Calvinistic lens. We are dismissed as Arminian (which I had never heard of and after much research realize I am definitely NOT.) I actually get angry during sermons because I feel he is diminishing and basically insulting God’s very nature of love, justice and righteousness in his all encompassing need to defend the idea of pre-destination. He constantly reiterates how comforting it should be for us to know we are chosen before eternity began, but that leaves the elephant in the room for me, that the other side of that doctrine is the belief that God, on purpose, created other people without hope from before the foundations of the world. That my God, whose very nature is love, could be so callous and cruel as to condemn people to eternal punishment whom He had created without the ability to accept salvation. In my pastor’s opinion there is no conflict, because if God, in His sovereignty decrees it, that makes it loving and just because He says so. This makes no sense. Your video was balm for my very lacerated soul. Thank you.
I agree 100%. You stated it much more diplomatically than I could. Jesus died for the sins of the world, not just a few pre-determined elect. Perhaps though, not Ham's descendants based on Noah's prophecies about his 3 sons? Japeth would dwell in Shem's tent meant all of Adam's descendants. Ham, however, was cut from a different geneology. If there was no free will, how did 1/3 of the Angel's choose to rebel against God, for which there is no repentance bc they cannot plead ignorance? If there is no free will, this entire good vs. evil drama seems entirely unnecessary. No free will means all the struggles of life are pointless if the outcome for each person is rigged (pre-determined). I don't God would have us struggle, stumble & strive in vain. Everything will be for the good of those who love Him & will walk with Him.
@@wakeywakey8603 you're kidding/being facetious about jesus not dying for Ham's descendants right?!?!
You sound like me
I do have to say one thing about calvinist is arguing with them made me dive deeper into his word and made more ashore why I believe what I believe
Yes, I had an elder who constantly stressed "sovereignty." To him it means God pre ordains our actions and outcomes, that is, no free will. To me I understand it as I think the Bible reveals; God is sovereign, that is, we will all stand to account in front of him for our lives. He has the ultimate say, but gives us free will to choose morally his way or our way. Just like an earthly king is sovereign. He can be obeyed or disobeyed, but holds ultimate authority to deal with disobedience. I find calvin's doctrine to not only be a libel of God's character, but also to be irrational.
It seems impossible today to find a local church assembly which does not teach error in some form or fashion.
Calvinism is a particularly heinous heresy, and I personally would not sit under the preaching of anyone who promotes it.
Helpful video. One concern to me is when a Christian reads a LOT of Calvinistic books, and/or studies at a Calvinistic seminary, and then reads the Bible through Calvinistic eyes instead of reading it with an open mind. Once a mind is "locked into" Calvinism, it can make it difficult to correctly interpret the Bible because the Bible is approached with preconceived ideas. It's so important that we (whether Calvinistic, Arminian or other) read the Bible for what it is. and not approach it having already come to certain conclusions based on the teachings of men.
David W Hunt interesting food for thought 🧐
David W Hunt Amen!
David, I find the speaker's chessboard analogy useful. Imagine a a person chess game against a super computer. Though it is predestined that the person will lose because of the computer's IQ level - this does not mean that its human rival doesn't have freewill when carrying out chess moves.
@@budekins542 fantastic analogy! I love it. The other one I like is that God is playing 10 dimensional chess (many scientists now think there are 10 dimensions) , Satan is playing checkers, and we haven't got a clue. And they accuse us if diminishing the sovereignty of God!
@@billysparks5860 Billy, I learned something interesting last evening. I learned that when the word for sin was translated into the Latin Vulgate the word was translated with a term used in a legal context for an offense that requires legal punishment. However the Greek translation means to fall short of and miss the mark, which is what the word meant in the original language.
I think we need to learn to recognize our presuppositions. No one has ever shown me a verse that says babies and young children go to hell as they deserve because of Adam's sin. Yet I used to believe that, but no longer. The Bible says God does not punish children for the sins of their fathers. Jesus told the disciples to let the little children come to Him for of such are the kingdom of heaven.
Do NOT misquote me here. I am not a universalist and am not saying everyone is going to heaven. I am saying that the only unforgiveable sin is the one against the Holy Spirit. If you reject the conviction and drawing of the Holy Spirit at the end of your life, that sin will not be forgiven.
I had a difference of opinion with someone else who used the passage that we were all enemies when Christ died for us as a proof text to his assertion that we are born hating God. These are not the same things. My questions were never answered. Did Adam and Eve "hate" God when they sinned in the garden of Eden? Did Peter "hate" Jesus when he sinned against him by denying him? Did Paul hate God when he persecuted Christians?
My point is that if we approach the Bible with specific suppositions we will interpret it in a way that is in line with those presuppositions. Many of us grew up with the supposition that we deserve hell because of Adam's sin. I believe a better understanding is that we are all broken because of Adam's sin and now inherit that sinful nature that WILL NO DOUBT SIN and therefore we will all miss the mark and be disqualified from being God's children but for the redemption of Jesus Christ by his crucifixion. (We deserve hell if we trample on the sacrifice Christ made on the cross by rejecting him. We are doomed to be cast out of heaven unless regenerated because of our brokeness and sinful natures. Jesus said often he came to seek and save the lost ) One viewpoint sees God as angry and punishing people for something they could not help. The other sees God as creating man to bear His image in the world, and giving man the ability to choose so they could be His image bearers. He knew we would mess it up, but He has not given up His plan. Instead He intervened to crush the head of the "serpent" in the Garden of Eden, and restore those who would choose Him to His original plan (of being His image bearers) or... we can make the same choice Adam and Eve made and disobey God and try to find our own way to be like God and end up sharing a dwelling place with Satan.)
By the way, Romans 9 says Esau served Jacob. When did that happen? Please read Micah chapt in full for the context of the Jacob I loved, Esau I hated statement. When you read Micah 1 you see it clearly refers to their descendants rather than them as individuals. Read the entire Chapter of Romans 9. Further down it clearly shows Paul is speaking of groups rather than individuals.
If God decrees everything that happens what in the world is the point of the book of Job? Please note that Job's friends meant well. Much of what they said was actually true, but they misapplied things to Job because they were not privy to what had gone on in heaven. Neither are we. God was angry at Job's friends for misreoresenting Him. We all see through a glass darkly now. Let's remember that and not be like Job's friends.
"I was chosen by God, for no apparent reason, boy, I'm I glad he chose me, and not them!" It's really hard for me not to see pride in such a view of salvation. Not all, but, in my experience, more often than not, they reject all that don't see salvation as they do. Being a charismatic, that does not believe in the female pastor-ship, I find myself in the rejection pile more often than not. But glory to God, that he offered this beggar the bread of life. This beggar can now tell everyone where to find bread. For God offers salvation to all.
I was saved in a charismatic church and am not sure if I completely agree with their theology, but have come to reject Calvinism and cessationism as well, so I’m in the weirdest place theologically right now lol. There is no mainstream position that I fit into. It’s a strange place to be, but I’m ok with it. I expect my position to change as I continue to learn.
@@lancesteinke3732 Lance, have you looked into Molinism?
It was the original polemic against Calvinism and neatly ties together free will and God's choice without getting crazy. I suggest checking out William Lane Craig's work on it. Tim Stratton has a lot of work on it as well.
It's basically built around the concept that God knows what free creatures would do in any given circumstances and then uses that knowledge.
@@Afterword. I haven’t studied molinism yet. I’ve heard of it though. I was that was probably closest to the conclusion I was drawing about these things. I think I’ll check it out. Thank you.
@@lancesteinke3732 It's surprisingly straightforward. I haven't found a solid Biblical argument against it yet. Even Calvinists attack it with philosophical objections.
Definitely something to check out.
@@lancesteinke3732 Also, I was also raised pretty Charismatic for the first dozen years. I hear you on the journey!
When it occurred to me that Jesus had been afforded this same freedom to choose for himself, the tears of blood He shed in the garden became more personal. It exploded my heart with gratitude. His love for the Father and for us in choosing the cross was the most glorious thing the world has or ever will see. Only choice can produce love. ❤️🔥❤️
It's interesting, that episode in the garden.
For a brief time Jesus, God in human form had a Will opposed to the Father's.
But He chose the Father's Will.
Profound that
Luke 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
Two out of three failed in a sinless state. Lucifer in Ezekiel 28:11-19, and Isaiah 14:13-14. Adam in the garden, and Jesus Christ in a garden.
But Jesus asked God to take that cup away from him but instead chose Gods will not his own human will… how would you explain that?
@@Uialiainival808 Thank you Lord Jesus! He chose the Father’s will and us! Praise God!
I can only relate to my own faith experience which has been about trust.
“looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.“ Hebrews 12:2
Trust, walking by faith and not by sight. We trust and humble ourselves in culture that values power and control because we trust our Father in faith. To me it’s like a mega phone saying “LOOK!! There’s more than what you can see.” His sheep hear His voice. Whoever has eyes to see and ears to hear take up your own cross and follow Jesus. He trusted the Father and we trust Him. It’s costly in the world’s eyes but holds immeasurable treasure and joy for us in the Lord!
@@shredhed572 Opposing God's will would be sin. Jesus didn't oppose God. Jesus submitted to the Father.
2:26 “Few individuals would be able to get around the intense emotion and pride-inducing adrenaline brought on by debating theology. Our innate desire to be esteemed by others and seen as smarter than we really are often overwhelms any potential for learning and profitable dialogue, which is unfortunate.”
This may be the most underrated quote ever
yessssss
I was about to quote this before having a quick look at the comments, lest I repeat somebody else's observation.
truth.
Exactly. So quick to defend a theology, and not Jesus Christ. Makes me wonder where their trust lies.
Brother, I do agree with you here, BUT the way more important issue here, is your kindly manner. Watching other vids on the internet show way too many combative, proud talkers. That kind of behavior is doomed to failure.
Paul Zollinger Man paul you have a good point. This guys is more in the spirit than by far most of the debaters out there
Well if people's heart is seeking truth, i don't think they'll reject it on count of the deliverer :-). I've spent most of my time one-on-one or small groups where I don't monologue but discuss. And we see why the narrow way is. Most want an excuse. Antagonize the delivery boy and excuse their rejection on basis of them calling it out? uhuh. God won't buy it. He sees the heart.
sounddoctorin I don’t believe most are seeking truth. They are seeking to be right and find evidence to back their positions. I’ve followed debates online for a few years now. Primarily I see people’s theology follows their belief system (not the other way around). People recreate God in their own image and then spend years even decades developing a carefully designed theology to back it up.
If any part of this theology is wrong, God forbid! It will be extremely hard to break them out of it (because their theology is actually and expression of their identity). Because there such intense spiritual warfare surrounding these issues the more grace and diplomacy possible the better (and better chance at breaking someone put of error). And its darn hard to do especially if you think you are right about something. God have mercy
@@bill_y4762 exactly. There's a mental disease I call ITS (Internet 'teacher' syndrome). Even if you agree they have to posture over you teaching you something and if you dare dispute (see my David Sasina vid) ohhh now you're attacking the 'lord's anointed'...
I wonder if he's still alive. You can't believe how many have croaked shortly after i get done with them in the last 33 yr or so of doing my thing on the net.
My usual 'thing' is to confront errant teaching by asking questions and doing scripture exegesis. I get ignored, misunderstood deliberately often and personally attacked. All these years keeping my personal info where people can contact if they want.
The number of times I was booted for employing matt 18:15-xx w/ people claiming to be in Christ...yikes. And right after like Nabeel get cancer or Hendry hits a semi w/ his wife and they lose their heads or Manley goes hunting next day and a guy murders him....head of a oneness group...heart attack doa... WHAT DO PEOPLE NOT UNDERSTAND ABOUT "Many are sick among you because they fail to discern the body of Christ'?
Love reasons. These people have not the love of God...only puffed up heads
Tigerex966 very well said. Really that is the heart of the issue. Calvinism is utter blasphemy. It attributes all evil to God. Basically the most satanic teaching ever vomited out of the mouth of the Devil. The truth which is God in his great love and wisdom Chose to give His creatures a measure of free will. It was so important to Him He was willing to die for it (their failure to use it rightly) and give men the choice to follow Him even in their most broken state and receive His forgiveness and the power to serve Him through the Holy Spirit. A good and gracious God, satan (calvins god) is the actual author of evil.
I feel as if you just set me free to live my life in Christ, free from the confusing restraint of the Calvinistic doctrine. It's been a long four decades coming. Thank you brother Flowers, THANK YOU! Jesus loves me this I know, for the bible tells me so. The true beauty of a flower is not in its description, but in its effect.
Yay! That must be such a relief because now you can rely on yourself instead of God. Smh.
@@m.d.d4250
Is that what you got out of this comment?
Seriously?
Oh wait!
Calvinism. When it's absolutely necessary to tweak everything you read for the purpose of propping up your false doctrine.
I knew the doctrine of Calvinism was wrong the moment I began reading the Bible as a new believer, not because of any innate intelligence or foresight I possessed, but because I was thirsty to know the truth, and so I humbly asked the Lord to reveal it to me and He answered my questions without fail.
what has He revealed to you? Calvinism has been killing me, i want Him to talk to me too
@@ScottRachelson777 if you prayed and asked the lord to tell you what the canon is, what will he say?
Forget titles, Read the Bible, Follow Jesus, not man. Read the gospels and see what Jesus taught. Simple as that. Much love brothers and sisters Jesus is King
amen that alone tells you calvanism is false.
Don't forget to study the 7 letters from Christ in revelation to know what more He expects from his church
Fred Miller yes let's pray for brother Flowers that his video reaches others that are still stuck in the muck of the sins of ingratitude and presumption. if love is not our identifying attribute in Christ then I would suggest we are missing the mark and need to, as Christ states in his letter to ephesus, repent and return to our first love.
Fred Miller "...dividing the Word of God." You're wrong on that point for sure. You made ink on paper, a phonic sound out of the mouth of the Lord a proper noun of the Lord Jesus, as does so many in error.
Revelation 19:13
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and *his name is called The Word of God.*
Luke 11:28
28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that *hear the word of God, and keep it.*
Word of God = The Lord Jesus.
word of God = written or spoken words.
@Fred Miller that sounds good, rightly dividing the Word.
But when it is said, many are called but only a few chosen;
Means many or everyone is being called to the gospel of Jesus Christ, to hear, understand and follow. Those that follow in truth are of God's chosen elect. That means it is for everyone to seek that spiritual revelation through Christ.
I was debating a Calvinist over a certain point. When he ran out of answers I suggested that he might be wrong and should reconsider his stance on the particular subject. He sternly interrupted me and said "Listen, I have been teaching this for over twenty years!" The inference from his tone and body language was, "I can't be wrong, I have been preaching this too long to admit that I might be wrong." One of the most stealthy ways for Satan to deceive a believer is to make them servant to their doctrine rather than to the One whom the doctrine is about.
It's more of an existential crisis that he was trying to avoid.
Well said, Kenray!👍
Interesting! Good point
Sunk cost fallacy
I'm really glad I'm not the one only that thinks like this. You're very good at explaining how salvation works based on the Bible. Thank you for posting this video.
What an amazing thing we would see if the Church would start reading the Bible and being led by the Holy Spirit instead of man.
Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Proverbs 3:5-6 KJV
God Bless
@Vaticanus Fidelis Pretty sure she is not talking about the universal church of Satan or corpus hermeticum...
This is the most thorough non-calvinist view I've heard since reading "Debating Calvinism" by James White and Dave Hunt.
We are disciples of Jesus Christ!
We are believers.
We are NOT non Calvinists!
Have you read his book:" What Love is This? Calvinisms Misrepresentation of God"?
@@Steve-og4ii No but my brother and dad have and it's been in my "To read" que for a while.
Yes, this is one thing I never understood was how choosing Christ is boastful in anyway. It’s humbling, and glorifies Him because God who in his right could condemn everyone yet had made a way for us to be reconciled for him. Therefore why boast about choosing him when many of us had to come to the conclusion that we are nothing without Him. I remember begging Christ to save me, just like prodigal when I was stuck in the midst of living in a sinful and abusive relationship. I thought I was too far gone, But God in his mercy had listen to my cry, and rescued me 7 times. I felt like the modern gomar, Christ was my deliverer and How amazing is He, how wonderful, and faithful is He, that he should rescue me out of my brokenness. There is nothing to boast about, but his goodness.
Leighton, I have been on my own journey through this subject for a while. I love RC Sproul and listen to him quite often, however struggle with his position on the predeterminism. Your commentary has helped me greatly in making sense of God's salvation and our free will to accept his beautiful gift.
There is predeterminism, as in Revelations tells us. Satan WILL be defeated. As far as humans having no free will to come to God for mercy of our sin, I can't believe that. Bible says, God chose us, but I believe, WE HAVE to hear His Word first and chose to accept God's Word and His mercy. That's where Calvinists believe that God has already CHOSEN those that will be accepted by Him, and all created other humans will be damned to hell forever. Why would God create a person, knowing that predetermined that that person would go to hell, with eternal punishment?
R.C. has been misled, and if anyone follows him, they too will be misled. He bought a "man's" theilogy, hook, line and sinker.
I think it always starts with pride.
Yes! The Bible references the dangers of being “puffed up.”
I’m coming out of Seventh Day Adventism and was told McArthur/Sproul were solid pastors. However after studying them intensely over past several weeks I still feared for my salvation.
Hearing yesterday for first time what Calvinism is (didn’t even know that’s what they are… God bless a commenter speaking up) Im finally experiencing some
long sought after peace. And wouldn’t you know it - googled Ellen White’s opinion, and she was a huge supporter of Calvinism (so ta-dah, I was going round the same pointless, torturous circle)
Sproul even doubted his own salvation whe he saw himself through the Calvinist lens .
John Calvin was a murderer,and a liar ,historical facts.
He turned Geneva into an inquisition .
sentencing people to death bannishing people from the city .
persecuting other Christians for disagreeing with him .
In England they imprisoned Christians for refusing Calvins doctrine ,took their belongings ,stole their property .
all because they said only the scriptures .
sola scriptura!
I believe the 5 points>> R.U.D.I.P. (Radical Corruption, Unconditional election, Definite Atonement, Irresistable Grace, and Perseverence of the Saints (Preservation of the Savior)). Arminians can be saved. logic is not required for salvation!. God has given us our teachable minds and His Spirit to understand the deep things of Scripture and we have the mind of Christ (by His Spirit). Leighton Flowers is in my opinion wrong. Reformed soteriology is difficult. It is almost impossible for JW's, Mormons, and many others to understand these deep truths, unless they become Christians (By God's grace!). But the requirement for salvation is not Biblical logic. The requirement is that Jesus died for your sins and enabled you to trust Him alone for eternal life. RUDIP are my 5 points that refute un-Biblical Arminianism. - J.B.
Thank you brother, i really needed this message. I encountered a 5 point Calvinist a couple weeks ago, and he pretty much came at me exactly how you said they would. God bless you brother, in Jesus name.
All i did was mentioned that all men and women have free Will, and the Calvinist brother called me a heretic, and accused me of stealing the Lord's glory or something like that.... i also don't like the way he talks about the Lost at times, it sounds like he's looking at them like Vessels of Destruction, rather than Lost human beings.
And of course no Calvinist would say men don't have a will, the question is; what does the bible say about man's will and their ability to please God? (hint hint: They can't please God nor do they want to. Their will is enslaved, not free) So this Calvinist (if that's what he told you) was just telling you what the bible says about it and your beef isn't with him, it's with the bible.
rpavich you’re ridiculous. Have you ever read 1 Cor 5:1-5?
Is that guy elect or not?
Paul says he is. Calvinism can’t stand.
We’re people in the Old Testament regenerated?
When did they get regenerated? according to this damaging doctrine you don’t even know if you have trampled underfoot the blood. Have you sinned willfully after coming to knowledge of the truth? You don’t even realize how sharp that sword is. Our faith in Jesus is in no way connected to our works. That’s Paul. You have more beef with the Bible than you even know.
Watch most Calvinists preachers and it’s pretty much like getting a stern chewing out. Not very loving, you can preach without compromise without being “hateful” for lack of a better word.
@@rpavich
Out of context much?
Calvinists say you are stealing Gods glory because they define faith as a work (which is contrary to the entire book of Romans). In their system if faith is a work which merits salvation then you are the author of your own salvation because you believed (or chose God).
The system actually makes complete logical sense but not scriptural sense because Paul literally and repeatedly defines faith as the opposite of a work, and the salvation that comes through faith is a Gift from God (which is to say faith does not warrant salvation, God in His mercy chooses to inpute righteousness to those who believe, they didn't earn it). Faith is the non work. This is a major point of the book of Romans and is somewhat mystically missed by Calvinists.
11:25 is where it starts
Hero
Thanks!
Gentlemen and a scholar
I have listened to many of your videos. I believe this is your best. Admitting you were wrong is very difficult to do personally let alone publicly. God bless you, your family and your much needed ministry.
My own experience, I was an atheist and couldn’t believe but wanted to. A point came where I said as much in a sudo Prayer. A week later, God took care of my unbelief.
Michael Ibach
You wanted to believe. Amen.
It's been five months, so happy for you brother, welcome home
@@evanu6579 A thing he couldnt have done without God making the first move. We are powerless dust.
Valor Above All
But dead men are capable of wanting to be right with God. That’s what he said and that’s what the bible said.
Calvinists claim that the only thing that can change that wicked depraved heart is irresistible grace. Are you claiming something different? He wanted to before regeneration. That’s a big problem for your stance.
@@valoraboveall5793
You mean like we can only come if the Father draws us? (John 6:44). Do you believe that Jesus is God?
Because He said when He is lifted up He will draw ALL men to Himself. (John 12:32).
(Insert calvinist definition of "ALL" here)
all who hear the gospel and repent of their sins and believe on Jesus the Christ shall be saved and have eternal life
Repentance of sins isn’t a requirement of obtaining eternal life. Repentance of sins is a discipleship issue after believing for eternal life. The book of John proves this to us. It’s the only book in the Bible written to unbelievers. It follows that all the information we need is in John’s gospel. The word repentance is in the book zero times. Over and over we’re told that believing in Christ for the promise of everlasting life is the only condition to receive everlasting life.
@@garyleemusic that’s right. You can repent or f sins after salvation, but it has nothing to do with salvation
The only condition is belief / faith
@G G The offer of eternal life wasn't offered to demons. What they believe doe does nothing to diminish that eternal is through simply believing that Jesus is the Christ, the one who guarantees eternal life to all who believe in Him for it. God bless!
@@garyleemusicMark 1:14-15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.” I don’t know if your comment is accurate or not.
We can not work our way into heaven (Salvation by works) nor can we also be forced (irresistible grace) to get into heaven!.That is why Jesus Christ created man and the Angels with a free will (proof of it is why Angel rebelled against God, they made that choice and God allowed it),.God does not force anyone into loving Him and worship Him, it must come from our hearts and it must come willingly and freely (like the angels , we have a choice also), not by force .I don't know where this man J.Calvin got that crazy idea that man does not have control over his decisions and as such man is to be controlled and manipulated by the Holy Ghost to get him into heaven!.
"nor can we also be forced (irresistible grace)"
Were you born into the world by the choice of your "free will"?
"nor can we also be forced (irresistible grace)"
Were you born into the world by the choice of your "free will"?
Free Will means that we have the will to choose what we desire and the natural man doesnt desire God.
Agree with u in part but not about the angels having free will. If ur interested we can share a dialogue
John calvin’s point was not about anything that happened in heaven or before the fall into sin,but rather about after the fall into sin. In Mark 7:21 Jesus makes the point abundantly clear; continued: “What comes out of a man, that is what defiles him. 21For from within the hearts of men come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery,22greed, wickedness, deceit, debauchery, envy, slander, arrogance, and foolishness. 23All these evils come from within, and these are what defile a man.”
TheThen also check out Jeremiah 17:9The heart is deceitful above all things
and beyond cure. So John Calvin’spoint simply is that man cannot come to God of his own. God needs to be involved. How ? That I don’t pretend to know. But John6:37 may give us a clue; 37Everyone the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but to do the will of Him who sent Me.
I’m seeing a lot of people find comfort from ur videos and it makes me happy as I myself am looking too find the truth for I was meet with this theology in a very dark time in my life as a Christian and at first it made sense and there was so much scripture too back it up.( supposedly) but I never questioned truly what this new found friend and mentor would tell me. Until now and have been met with very harsh arguments and accusations I have never had too deal with. I am Growing (praise God) but it can definitely take a toll on me. But seeing videos like this really helps. And im glad it has helped other people. Im praying earnestly that God reveals the truth too me. And I thank him for not letting my self be conformed with a theology with out question specially with one that the more I study on it seems too be taking so much scripture out of context and under-minding God grace as u have said that Gods grace doesn’t need more grace on top of it. Because if it does then why did Jesus say it is finished on the cross? And speacially not with a theology that undermines how it constantly says too repent and believe and u will be saved.(what’s the point of that if the apostles knew that only the select or a certain people would be chosen too be saved) and they definitely undermine his grace and love for the world. Yet I am aware he hates sinners and the wicked. As sin grew so did his grace. But again I have not come too a conclusion but I am very happy with being able too hear the many great points u are making! God bless
The 1 point that saved me from never ever belonging to calvanism or reformed: "the love of Jesus for me"
Excellent, the Lord bless and keep you in this large issue. What a kind, gracious 'come let us reason together' attitude and manner of presenting these issues but in a powerful way.
Have listened to this multiple times. Always so good and encouraging. Our loving God is amazing. Praise Jesus!
One of my biggest problems with Calvinists is the limited atonement. God didn't create any individual that didn't have a chance to accept Christ. They're saying God made a man just to have him burn in hell.
After coming out of 30 years of WOF NAR teaching, i followed and struggled with calvinism for 2 years. Bless you for your teaching. Brilliant!
Growing up in a Calvinist family, I went to a Calvinist K-12 school and was baptized and married in a Calvinist church, went to Calvin Camp in the summer, my sister was a Calvinette, my brothers were Calvin Cadets, took Calvinist catechism, went to a Young Calvinist Federation convention during the summer in high school, and finally went to and graduated from Calvin College. Remind me again who the object of our worship should be?? True story.
Are you still a Calvinist?
Weren’t that your family and your choices, not John Calvin’s?
This was a such a gracious, kind and humble way to communicate your position. Thank you for posting this and for all the videos you provide. God bless!
Awesome video, thank you! Without God I am doomed - With God I am free to operate as a free moral agent under His Sovereign will for my life, by my confession and faith in the shed blood of Jesus and His resurrection from the dead!
Very good testimony. You are, brother, a real gem among teachers today. Greetings from Europe.
Thank you for your videos. I was raised in a cult (called "the truth" or - "2x2s" by outsiders), God opened my eyes when I was 20, and I've been out of that for a decade now and understanding the gospel so much better, and shortly after leaving the cult with great desire for fellowship with Christians, without more fully studying Christian theology, my husband and I joined a church that seemed gospel-centered and we came to learn what "Reformed" meant and readily accepted the doctrine. A decade later, I am wanting to be open and start studying and deciding for myself what I really believe. It's so easy to be convinced by other people on what is really true as far as theology. The biggest concern I have experienced is the shocking amount of pride that came with me having calvinistic beliefs. I became a very judgmental and critical person. It's taken me a while to see this and God is driving me towards being a more compassionate person again. I am sure this is not always the case, but I've seen this time and again through the church we were in previously and also other online resources. There is some sort of air of pride and superiority that can so easily come with calvinism... but it is cloaked in the disguise of "humility before God". It's like I became prideful about how supposedly humble I was to accept that God chose me and that He was doing all of it without me having a say. This is the bottom line problem for me. Knowing God shouldn't cause me to become prideful and judgmental. It should lead me to true humility, overflowing love for Him and for others. This is just my experience. I have always been bothered by the whole free will topic and have never understood how God can be just and loving to choose some over others. I would say, over what criteria does He choose some over others? Others would say that He can do that because He's God. Well, sure. I agreed with that. But how can a LOVING God doom some to hell without any choice? That never set right with me. I just figured I was somehow not understanding it. Your video has given me much to think about and pray about. Thank you for your honest thoughts. I'm so thankful we can trust God in this process as He is teaching all of us wherever we are at in our understanding. I never want my theology to outweigh my love for God and others, because without love, what is the point? God bless!
Please, I grew up arminian and there are prideful people on both sides. God chooses people according to the counsel of His own will and not because of anything in and of the person themselves. That alone should make people very humble, and thankful knowing that their salvation is all of the grace of God. If you ask me, arminians are prideful thinking they were wiser and more spiritual than all the other sinners out there who didn't "choose God" for themselves and can then pat themselves on the back for doing so.
GOD is so Good. I can not agree more with what you said. God values God's own integrity.
God sets his own parameters.
Gob Bless. God wants self Government under his King and Lordship. The Holy Ghost is what God gives us freely when we are born again and is the Govenor in us.Jesus is our King and has returned to the Father. God's purpose for saving us was not so we can be trophies.we are now Citizens of a Spiritual Kingdom here right now on earth. God's plan was to give man authority Dominion.Jesus died to restore us to his original purpose and proper relationship. Jesus is the way to his Kingdom he is the King.time to start right now.we can be with Christ forever and we are saved from the despair of being separated from Christ.
I agree. I see a shocking level of pride within Calvinists, who are otherwise excellent Christians.
They tend to use ‘Strawmen’ fallacies calling everybody else ‘Arminians’, when the Truth of scripture is neither Calvinist nor Arminian. The Truth of the Bible is simple & straightforward before people are indoctrinated into Calvinism.
I think people like Calvinism because it emphasizes God’s sovereignty, but Calvinism twists the definitions of words, so it undermines its own strengths with a bizarre & unbiblical ‘frozen-chosen’ theology.
I've found that hyper Arminianism is more often given to pride and hyper Calvinism to false humility - where said proponents of either set of doctrines identify specifically as one or the other. I once said that I'm neither and that position was perceived to be impossible by those I was speaking with in an online forum.
Satan is the master of false dichotomies and has many spellbound by them.
Was St. Augustine The First To Introduce " Calvinism " To The Church? Dr. Ken Wilson, Soteriology 101
Dr. Leighton Flowers, thank you for your ministries. I am a follower of Christ from Malaysia. Your teachings have stopped me from falling deeper into the reformed trap.
Almost two years ago, I was led to say the sinner’s prayer in a Pentecostal church that didn’t teach the whole counsel of God. After staying in the church for a year, I did not grow in the Word and believed the word-of-faith teaching and prosperity gospel. I was led astray and committed greater sins. At the end, I left the church, holding onto the little true faith I got from my own reading of the Bible.
Since then, I thought I had to catch up on the Word of God, I committed myself to reformed theology and spent another year in false teachings! During the year, I listened to the teachings of prominent reformed teachers, preachers from Asia, and also persons like RC Sproul and John piper. Since then, I put on the “reformed spectacles” to read my Bible and did not take them off! I became proud thinking always I am the ‘elect’, and my unbelieving family members are not, I am better because I am the only ‘chosen’ one, and they are not loved by God. Thank God He delivered me from that trap! I am never returning to those false teachings again!
Thank you for deciding to teach such discernment between Calvinism and the Bible. I have ordered your book “The Potter’s Promise” from a christian bookstore located here in Malaysia, thank God they have it, and it’s on the way! I am looking forward to God leading me deeper into His Truth on this path I’m now on. Praise be to God!
You tell it in such a humble and heartful way. Wow. I listen to John Mc Arthur and R.C. Sproul with interest because they love the Scripture. But I can't follow them in their calvinistic assumptions. I was born again 38 years ago without knowing about calvinism. Ivhave never attended a reformed church either. Some knowledge about calvinism came much later. It's sometimes hard to navigate through those concepts and I pray for God's guidance and light. I just try to follow Jesus, not Calvin or anyone else. Listening to your channel helps. So thank you for your work. God bless you. Greetings from the Netherlands.
Beautifully said! I never had a word i could use to describe my theology. I am not a Calvinist and I am not an Armenian, yet both parties when I say i dont agree with them presume I belong to the other. Thankyou for giving me an answer.
Arminian*
Armenians come from Armenia. Arminianism is named after Arminius.
As I have been saying for years as Calvinist fight Arminians and vice versa, "any doctrine that is so closely aligned to a man that it bears his name, is bound to contain error." Scriptural ideas that seem to be apparent contradictions are actually balancing texts to try to help man comprehend what God is trying to reveal to we finite beings. Can we say that we fully comprehend and understand the mind of God? We need to leave these doctrines in tension and stop trying to put God in our perfect little theological boxes or whatever other form of construct we wish to call it. When I debate Calvinists they call me an "Arminian," but then I debate an Arminian and he calls me a "Calvinist." I contend as this video has revealed that there is a balanced view in between these two swings of the pendulum. I have known Calvinist who switch to Arminian and even "Open Theism" (which frankly is nuts) and I have known Arminians who swung to the side of Calvinism. Both man made "theological constructs" emphasize their favorite verses strictly in the narrow embrace of their beliefs and basically dismiss or do textual gymnastics with texts that seem to support the opposing view. We just need to let ALL Scripture speak and interpret or balance itself in our understand of God and how in guides the affairs of men to fulfill His ultimate purposes and plans. His knowing everything is hard for us to wrap our minds (which know so little) around. Excellent video! Hope to get the book.
This is where I have come too on my walk as well. Why does it have to be either or
Thank you, Dr. Flowers. I rarely entertain a debate on this subject, but sometimes I’m forced. So often those who push the issue are quick to admit that this is their “favorite” doctrine - and that should be a red flag. And why do they (the Calvinists) have to be so abrasive, forceful, antagonistic? I truly believe it is because they have a faulty view of God’s sovereignty that demands of them an almost Muslim-like indignation that erupts into a defense of God when challenged. It’s like any other view of election and grace is an affront to holy character of God, so they treat the unconvinced like infidels. Funny, but why is it that it’s more from Reformed Baptists that this attitude erupts, not Presbyterian??
The Quran says that Allah is the "best of deceivers." This is true of God according to Calvinism because God speaks to people throughout Scripture as if they have the ability to do otherwise in their decisions but they actually don't.
I have observed the same spirit behind some (not all) Calvinists and some (not all) Muslims. They disguise fatalism as Sovereignty.
God bless you sir! This teaching has come in a time of great need in my life, Calvinism has hurt me to the core, I was stripped away from my joy and assurance in my salvation through Christ Jesus, I felt if God made most people for hell there was no ways I was the elect. Not having the Lambs book of life there was no way I could have any assurance of where I was gonna spend eternity. I’m not mad at Calvinism or Calvinist I think these people are genuine, but it caused me great confusion and made me doubt that God even loved me.
Thank you again and God bless you sir.
I don't understand your view of Calvinism, or why you doubt God's love for you, once you have become a follower of Christ you are instantly part of the elect and your salvation is secure and cannot be taken away otherwise it was never genuine in the first place. that is my understanding of it and seems to be backed up by scripture.
I don't think u understand calvinism
@Sam Brown Well said. God indeed loves you.
Yeah Calvinism is dangerous. I’ll be divisive about it to a degree. The issue i have is that with this line of thinking the evidence of true faith is works for the Calvinist. Many preachers are teaching that if you remain in unrepentant sin you are not truly regenerated. It’s easily refuted by 2 different passages by Paul to the corinthians. Firstly 1 Cor 5:5 where the man in a particularly gross sin is told to be kicked out of the church so his flesh will die and his spirit will be saved in the day of Christ. Second when Paul says there are some who haven’t repented in the church!
If calvinists took their own fruit inspections to John Calvin himself, would he pass?
The truth must must MUST be rightly divided! Proper dispensational theology makes sense of James, Hebrews, Matthew, Revelation, 1 John and Acts. Paul only taught faith without works.
Check out David peacock on the kingdom of heaven vs the kingdom of God If you want to explore it further.
I know the burden I was under thinking I made shipwreck of the faith. God bless brother.
Whenever I doubt my salvation, I like reading the meditations of the puritans.
'Tis a point I long to know,
Oft it causes anxious thought;
Do I love the Lord or no?
Am I his, or am I not?
His free grace alone, from the first to the last,
Hath won my affection, and held my soul fast.
Nothing in my hand I bring
Simply to the cross I cling.
Venture on him, venture wholly,
Let no other trust intrude;
None but Jesus kind and loving,
Can do helpless sinners good.
Here's pardon for transgressions past,
It matters not how black their cast,
And O my soul, with wonder view,
For sins to come, here's pardon too.
Fully discharged by Christ I am,
From Christ's tremendous curse and blame.
His tried Almighty arm
Is raised for your defence;
Where is the power can reach you there?
Or what can pluck you thence?
His honor is engaged to save
The meanest of his sheep;
All that his Heavenly Father gave
His hand securely keeps.
What may be be my future lot,
High or low concerns me not;
This doth set my heart at rest:
What my God appoints is best.
BOY, the first time I heard about the corporate view of election which I came to see, too! I do appeciate your gentle approach in this talk.
I admire your willingness to share this. I have been struggling with this
Thank you for the video. I’m also currently struggling with this topic and can’t help to compare the prodigal son vs the parable of soils
Amen and thank you again for your teaching.
The leadership of my church is moving away from a neutral viewpoint on soteriologically toward the calvanistc position. Many of the membership are not Calvanists. I fear a potential church split or scattering as people slowly leave. I know I can't support this change. If they succeed, I'll be leaving myself. It is difficult and through much prayer I seek God's guidance. Your teachings are helping affirm what I have, years ago, come to believe. Thank you again.
Thank you brother. This meant so very much to me. I'm not Calvinist, but when I studied it after discovering some of my family members are Calvinist, I was somewhat heartbroken; such a confusing doctine... One relative told me outright that God chose some BELIEVERS to go to hell, before the laying of the foundations of the world. I bawled like a baby, off and on for days, being tempted by Satan to believe it could be true! PRAISE GOD, He Who IS Love, for gently rescuig me from that stream of thinking!! I bless GOD, oh my soul, and thank HIM every day for such elucidations. Love you in Christ Jesus 💓🙆
I had the same experience! It almost made me suicidal, but there is no relief in the Calvinist system and suicide would only deepen my despair if they were right. I cried out to God to show me the truth and if Calvinism was true could God please somehow take me out of existance because everything was just too horrible to bear. Jesus said his yoke was easy and he would give us rest for our souls and He does. Calvinists don't get it and their burden is unbearable. John Calvin had people executed for disagreeing with him. Why would you want to identify with him? I study scripture so my belief is not based on emotion but Dr. Flowers explains that better than I could. Thank God for Dr. Flowers and C.S. Lewis, D.L. Moody, Dr. Chuck Missler, John Wesley and other non-Calvinists He has given us to help restore us to peace in Him!
Will never understand how anyone can truly believe in calvinism and call God a God of love. Far to much controversy on the subject mainly by intellectual theologians , it's an illogical doctrine and breeds pride an elite nessie.
The church has increasingly become like the world around them we hear and see so often. It used to be that one could disagree and go grab lunch together. Today, that has been replaced by a lack of engaging the issues objectively and replacing it with dismissive name-calling and one-liners that don't fully engage what the other person believes.
Thank you for both the manner and content of the video. Whether we fully agree or not, this is how Christians should engage one another. A failure or refusal to do this often indicates a lack of security and ability to defend one's own position thoroughly and biblically.
Thank you! I have never been a Calvinist. I appreciated your video and especially the last point about free will. It never made sense to me why Calvinists would challenge free will. As if God was afraid of man’s free will. God would want people to actually choose him and want to be with him. It is a relationship. If only one side has free will, then it is not a real relationship. It would be evil of God to only choose some for salvation and others not. This goes against the nature of God. Appreciated your video and am happy you made the decision to leave Calvinism. 😃👍🏻
Thank you! I am happy to find like-minded people free to interpret the Bible in a straightforward way. Sadly, Calvinists twist definitions of words into a circular-reasoning Chinese-finger trap. I am thrilled to find people who simply believe what the Bible says (without twisted definitions ).
Most of the discussions on this thread are really... really terrible. Every Calvinist has encountered every single Arminian and vis versa, tossing out ghastly generalizations that cover multitudes of people and perspectives. Any commenter attempting to discuss his or her viewpoints is shutdown by the opposition's unwillingness to engage intellectually and respectfully. It's such a shame. The problem of conversational breakdown is one of the key components in so many people leaving the faith. When the unsure have questions, they turn to the surrounding Christians for answers, but we tell them to wait because we are too busy interrupting each other or not listening at all to the pre-existing doctrinal conversations with our brothers and sisters on various theological topics. It's such a pride-parade of sinners pointing the finger at the other side shouting, "You're the prideful one!" Id like to declare the obvious here: this mode of operation is destructive. No love for one another.. just contempt. If your comment isn't constructive or praising in nature, try not commenting. I'm sure Leighton uploaded this video to provide testimony to his theological journey, not a slandering ground for echo-chamber buddies.
If people are leaving the faith because of theological debates, they most likely never truly loved Jesus. I think you are overstating your case, people are just debating online about the proper interpretation of the Bible and Christian theology.
Both of these question are incredibly important. Furthermore you comment does exactly the same you claim to oppose, just pridefully tone-policing. If you would like people to take you seriously you shouldnt try to minimize issues people find important, all the while presenting yourself as some moral authority.
@Christian McNeal You are right to describe this “contempt” as destructive. May God have mercy on us all.
Sadly millennial forms of evangelicalisms are so concerned with superficial aspects of the faith, and their own emotional responses that they ignore scripture and despise godly authority.
All the while, affecting a holier than thou attitude. It's a bizarre "love" pharisaicism that bludgeons everyone over the head demanding people to worship them and their misguided opinions "or else." Its manipulative, disengenuous, and fundamentally contrary to the Gospel.
If calvinists are correct, and the saved were chosen before creation, then quite literally, Jesus served no purpose…..according to Calvinistic logic, he came to save the saved?
That only means that God knows who will receive His awesome gift of salvation. That's what it means to me and has for many years. God knows ❤
So true.
We are proud and loyal.
Our identity gets wrapped up in the family we identify with.
If we seek truth above all, truly want to know God's word, we will find it.
Such a gentle approach.. this is so helpful. Currently looking deeper into this. I need all the info I can get. Thanks guys
Former Calvinist here. Good stuff.
Ditto and ditto.
@Johan Strydom Dave, Jaap, and I left Calvinism because we found it not to be true to according to the Scriptures. That's the only reason people abandon it.
Me too, little by little, scared to death though. It's why I'm creeping around in secret from friends and church family :/ I keep doubting my salvation and most Calvinist will say it's because I wasn't of the fold anyways :(
@@bookemchristy4706 I have experienced similar. I had several very good friends in my church who were in positions of leadership. They were grooming me to become a leader, but as soon as I started questioning Calvinist doctrine, they cut me out. Then I started getting the passive-aggressive, "You know, often times people who aren't saved don't even know it" comments. Paul says, "If we confess with our mouths that Jesus is Lord and believe that God raised Him from the dead, we will be saved." Jesus IS Lord, and He is risen! But . . . it appears as if you have to define these words "correctly": "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is completely Sovereign and chooses whom He will save, and you believe that God raised Him from the dead, then you are most likely chosen, but probably won't find out until you've died." It sounds a lot like the Watchtower Society to me. . . . .
@@charlesmartinjr3971 Calvinism is a CULT
I was never a Calvinist, but I did hold to Conditional Security early in my walk. This came crashing down one day when I decided to read through Romans without stopping to get lost in any weeds. When I got to the Tree and the Branches I realized that the Paul had been discussing the nations of Jew and Gentile throughout the book and he had already mad it clear that the Jews were chosen for the PURPOSE of being a light and the line of Messiah, not salvation. I realized the tree represented opportunity/knowledge which the gentiles were grafters into with the giving of the out pouring of the spirit.
Interesting. I am not a Calvinist but have friends who are. I have no desire to convert them, but I struggle to understand their interpretation of salvation. This is a helpful perspective. I've also never considered the idea that God's sovereignty actually had a beginning because the attribute requires something to be sovereign over (all of creation). Never thought about that. Thanks. My husband felt the same way as you after encountering the biblical doctrines about baptism. He struggled for years before finally abandoning the Baptist doctrine on baptism. We are not connected to a denomination anymore. Just plain old Christians who do our best to understand the Scriptures with the hope that God has mercy for our unintentional errors and limited understanding. God bless.
I honestly lean more towards Calvinism but I don't pressure myself to make up my mind on which doctrine is correct because ultimately it's faith in Jesus, whether I chose Him or He chose me first, that saves me. JESUS, his death and resurrection. Thank God it is not a salvation issue.
But knowing right doctrine matters a lot. Knowing right doctrine is related with your faith and believe in Christ.
So it matters a lot.
We all believe salvation comes in the same way, it's just a difference in opinion on how people get there. You're right, it's not a salvation issue & shouldn't divide us like it does. Proud sinners on both sides yelling at each other doesn't help us reach the lost.
@@sandeepsinghrajput4308 Only 1 doctrine is related with my faith & that is that Jesus Christ is God, He was crucified for my sins & He rose from the dead to defeat death so I can live forever.
True faith will always include obedience to God's commands out of love.
It is a salvation issue. If calvinism
is true its not possible to repent. Its not possible to turn to god. According to them its not even possible to turn to God even if He draws you! (He has to do both, the drawing and the response in your heart).
Man has no part or response in any of it. This is what they call monergistic salvation, that it is all God alone, there is not some kind of submission or response by man. Literally man cannot even beat his breast and say “god have mercy on me the sinner”. None of the was of that man, he’s completely and 100% dead. God literally had to “Regenerate” his will just to get the man to even pray that prayer.
The man no more could have resisted it than dead Frankenstein’s monster could have resisted being assembled together as a corpse and have electricity shot through his body until he came to life!! That’s literally what they teach you can verify everything I am saying by studying 5 points calvinism (TULIP).
I’m not sure i would recommend it though, its like eating a box of nails (with no salt), some of the points of tulip are some of the most Anti-scriptural assertions ever made (especially “L” limited atonement). Its stunning and beyond comprehension anyone could believe limited atonement you just have to throw out verse after verse after verse after verse after verse.
Great video, finally decided to come here after being hurt by Calvinism, and a Calvinist, I was secretly one for a while. Learnt about this channel through memes insulting the channel, a friend referred the channel to me, I didn't want to check it out until now, since I've heard Dr Flowers, I've received peace regarding my salvation. Thank you very much. Hyped :) Praise the Lord
Video starts at 11:20... I think it's sad that we isolate ourselves into these petty factions. We are ONE BODY.
Thank you. He talks too much of unnecessary matters to the subject.
I come from a CRC background. I joined YWAM in my early 20s. It was there that I was confronted with other perspectives. I will say this: I am thankful for my background because so many other Christians have little Biblical foundation. But, I know that there are many perspectives and we spend too much time arguing about it and less time loving others as we love ourselves. We now see in a mirror dimly. Let us major on the majors and minor on the minors. If we can agree that Christ came to save us from sin and all who believe in Him will be saved, then that is a major. Some of the other things distract us from what is really important. I am now part of a mission supported by many churches including one large one that is Calvinist.
Leighton, I remember an incredible night all night debate/discussion a little over 20 years ago at Paisano Baptist Encampment at youth camp with you and Jason. It was a debate but it was invigorating. I would say the chokehold Calvanism had on you was starting to let you free. After Jason went to bed the discussion changed and I was encouraged so much even on points we didn’t necessarily agree on yet. I’ve watched and followed your current postings I’m thankful for your journey and the chance to learn from your experience. I hope you are well. Blessings to you my brother.
Former Calvinist here (recent). The good part begins at 11:20.
I just received your book, The Potter's Promise, and I will use the Word with it and all your valuable clips to help my dear friends in Christ who I know love the Lord but cling to Calvinism. The thought of them changing their minds and giving up their reputations will be difficult. This one teacher I know has been teaching Calvinism so more than 20 years, I know the fight to get them to see the Word without the lenses of Calvinism.
As an non-Calvinist, I am thankful for my Calvinist brothers and sisters, because they do help their brothers and sisters in Christ in one area which is living with confidence and conviction. A lot of people claim to be Christians but do not live boldly by scripture or boldly by example of the person of Christ. I meet a lot more people who are Calvinists that do so with such a high level of confidence. However, I also often times see that confidence in the person of Christ be conflated with overconfidence in their Calvinistic interpretation of scripture, that it becomes arrogance to the point of almost acting like a Pharisee. Not wanting to have their denominational views challenged or questioned, not stopping and and questioning their behavior and how they engage with other Christians in debates on soteriology, refusal to directly answer leading questions that helped them to make honest answers about where they stand in their viewpoint, and possibly humbling themselves to the point of praying to God to help them hold more humility. This is most certainly not true across the board with all Calvinists but it is a stereotype that most non-calvinists have about Calvinists in general. In fact this type of behavior that I see in my calvinist brothers and sisters is often part of what leads so many people away from the faith. Most people I hear who turn away from the faith were either brought up in a Catholic or calvinist background. Heck, my father is a calvinist and his particular beliefs and his behavior is precisely what has brought two of my family members away from the faith. So to my calvinist brothers and sisters who are reading this, I mean this when I say that your confidence can be a problem, and a very serious one at that. I beg and I plead with my calvinist brothers and sisters, to practice more humility and pray to God to soften your hearts more when talking with your brothers and sisters about soteriological views. We are all family here. If someone questions Calvinism they are not persecuting you nor are they speaking out against the person of Jesus Christ. They are challenging your beliefs and your behavior. Please learn the difference between the two. We are challenging your soteriological views because we love you and we want to help you be as best of an example of Christ as much as you want to help us in that same area.
Amen brother! Very good! I was always cautious about Calvinism. Maybe it has to do with my background of an ex Roman Catholic that I could never subscribe to such teaching. But I do appreciate a few smart folks who are Calvinists such as Richard Bennett, very intelligent and educated man especially on the topic of the Roman Catholic church, as well as Dr.James White who no doubt can debate anyone out there and win. I also like listening to MacArthur and Sproul on certain topics.
But me in contrast to you was wondering how can intelligent men like these espouse such wrong doctrine. Some verses in the Bible they like to stress, seemingly support Calvinistic view, but the Bible overall does not support it, and it is totally unacceptable and not in accordance with the God we get to know from the pages of the Bible.
It makes no sense to me. 5 point Calvinism cannot possibly be a biblical doctrine. I know some have softened it a bit but the core teaching is the same for all Calvinists. Our God is a loving God and He created us with free will, we have a choice. The fact that we choose to accept His grace is no reason for boasting and Paul makes sure to let us know it is not meritorious in Ephesians 2,8, we cannot boast about accepting his grace and believing His gospel, because it is GOD WHO SAVES US.
missthunderstormable,
There are numerous intelligent people who are wrong in their belief about God...
There are many brilliant atheist that do not believe in God....God usually choose
the simple but kind hearted and lowly people...
True, Calvinism is NOT a True Biblical doctrine because Calvinism is a mixture of
Biblical Truth and man-made Lies......
@@52RGD 100% I like to listen to Ben Shapiro now and again debate on different topics as he is very sharp and intelligent, at the same time he doesn't believe the gospel.
@@52RGD well said..
The bible prevented me from ever entering into Calvinism
protruth1... and you are right because after having spoken with "Calvin's disciples" I am persuaded that this doctrine comes straight from hell. Either they reject you if you disagree with them or they call you an Armenian. This movement belongs to the end times: false doctrines. The picture and the view they have from God is actually horrible. Calvinism is a CULT. I immediately identified it as a false doctrine when I heard from it! Especially when I noticed the "false humility" of people who pretend to be "elect" because they say that they receive a conviction in their heart and they will pray for me so that I receive the revelation as well!!!
Amen me too
@@chaziadol7884 they think they are superior. They're exactly like the Pharisees who thought they were superior because of their actions. Could not realize their own problems. So self righteous
@@knxcholx - Exactly ! What you say is so true. These people are totally blinded.
There is a day coming when non-heretical disagreement and conflict does not divide the Church, but unifies us as family. I am praying for this.
Professor Leighton, thank you for the work you are doing. In this video you quote 1 Cor.15:24(~35:20) and Col.2:15(~35:59) and in both passages the word "spiritual" has been inserted that changes the meaning of those verses. I could not find any other translation that does that other than the Good News Translstion. You might want to use a more literal translation such as NASB so that no one can find fault with your arguments. With love in Christ...
When i was a 5 point Calvinist, i made every attempt to prove someone was in a false Arminian gospel or debating about election and ESPECIALLY limited atonement.
Serious question: Why is it so important to Calvinists that everybody else endorse Calvinism?
@@robanddawnramcharan6408 because they are a cult mentality. Anytime you have US vs THEM, man's carnal nature and emotions do the same things. Judging others lost who don't agree. They also become like the God they believe in. Hating most of the world EXCEPT his little chosen flock. They are in a cult. Corruption in one of it's many forms. Indoctrination is a hell of a drug!
@@robanddawnramcharan6408 is it? Seems equally important to people to point out that Calvinists are wrong. Seems like either one is beneficial if it makes the person love and follow God better.
@@crabring Maybe so. But beware the unacceptable face of Matthew 7:23.
@@robanddawnramcharan6408yeah, seems equally true to anyone...??
You have no idea what this video has meant to me.. I have been so saddened at the influx of Calvinism on the church. I am in no way a scholar, I have difficulty remembering, so I am not good at apologetics, as much as I wish to be. But my love for God and his word is strong. I have young children who I am focused on their spiritual education and have been so concerned that I would not truly find ways of making sure they are not deceived by what I consider to be false doctrine. My son now 13 has grown so much in his faith and path in the past year I can see where he may go. And knowing that I have been greatly concerned where he could go later in life for an education in theology. I have heard from many who have gone thru seminary and tell of how great the influence of Calvinism has become, so much that I have had great concern where to send him later if it is mean to be. Your words have given me hope that there are still those who still go by the word of God as they were meant to be. How sad that some chose to make the word of God into something it was never meant to be. I have always said, God's word is not confusing, it's man that makes it confusing. Again thank you for being so clear, concise, and honest in your word's and giving this Mother faith that there are still teachers and leaders who can take God's word at what it should be.
K.J. McQueary the fact that you believe Calvin’s exploration of the scripture had an influx into the Church shows you have no idea of what he wrote. Or Church history. Armenian beliefs has crept into the Church, especially in America. Dr Flowers is an Arminian, a disciple of Arminius. He was a man who despised the reformation and sought a return to Catholicism and sacraments to be saved. At the heart of it is does God save by grace (Calvin) or by works (Arminius). If we have any rule in our salvation and Arminianism is correct IT IS a work and can rightly brag we chose God. If it is not by works, and if salvation is by grace then Arminius CAN NOT be correct in their theology. Dr Flowers sadly believes he was wise enough to choose God.
so good!
You are very good at apologetic. The academic approach is not an apologetic. Our faith is our apologetic. You have a great God and you trust him, keep on doing that.
That's weird, because I've never heard a Calvinist say that TULIP (i.e. reformed theology) is an one of the "essentials" - a belief that one must accept for salvation. So I'm not sure why you would be so concerned whether or not your child believes it. He would be saved either way.
Arminianism is heresy
I appreciate your taking responsibility for your errors. However, people misled you. I think that’s important to know that’s usually where it begins. People don’t just come up with TULIP Calvinism out of thin air.
Glad you left! You’ve been a blessing to me!
I don't know why anybody would call themselves a "Calvinist" or an "Arminian"...we are all CHRISTIANS. If you agree with what Calvin taught, well, okay...that's nice. I read one of Don Stewarts books and I agreed with it...I'm not a "Stewartist" lol. Just seems weird to me.
The reason for "slapping on" name tags is purely for ease of identifying your soteriological doctrine.
My soteriology aligns with calvinism, so instead of saying my doctrine is of a monergistic salvation and my ordo salutis goes through this list. I simply say Im a calvinist.
The same could be said for arminians with their understanding of these things.
Among mature believers within both camps it is well assumed that we all believe in "sola fide" faith alone, and within that unity we may discuss a difference in perspective on salvation :)
You're not related to Dale Dominy are you?
I am not.
That’s why most public figures like RC Sproul and John MacArthur use the term “reformed”
One is saved or unsaved. Matthew 7 tells us that “many” people that identify as a Christian will be rejected by Jesus and not enter into heaven. What matters first and foremost is believing the right gospel. Everything else is secondary.
I don't have any "degrees" and haven't been to bible college, but I have the Holy Spirit to teach me and I've read Curtis Hutson's little book "Why I Disagree With All Five Points of Calvinism" That cinched it for me.
Thank you for this thoughtful and reasonable response to Calvinism. I pray God will open the hearts and minds of all who hear it, both believer and unbeliever alike.
"I pray God will open the hearts and minds of all who hear it"
But what about their "free will"?
@@MansterBear "Opening a person's heart" simply implies that a person will need some assistance to overcome their prejudices and presumptions. Whether or not they receive it and respond to it is their choice. ;-)
That background is too real with the tulips on the ground while the character is walking away lol
Matt Lewis its a tulip that has fallen apart on the ground
I noticed that too.
😂😂😂
Leighton, very cool that you and Matt Chandler were both mentored together and I assume were super close back then. As you have in a sense "recanted" your views on Calvinism over the last few years, do you and Matt Chandler to this day fellowship together and remain friends? I know that sounds shallow but being on the "same team" still at the end of the day but with different systematic theologies, do you feel ostracized unfairly by any or all of your Calvinist brothers/sisters in Christ? I know the most popular conferences we see out there seem to be more SBC based supported so do you feel there is division around this to even be a speaker at such events? I am very much a fan of objectively understanding both sides to a debate a view so I do appreciate your approach.
Leighton, referencing your point #1, could you provide some books that could be read on the topic of the corporate view of election?
Read the BIBLE.
Before that ask the Holy Spirit to guide you
This is so helpful for a seminary student like me who is baptists in an independent baptist church and have found myself surrounded by Calvinists on social media
I have family who are Calvinists. Why is it that Calvinists so loudly proclaim "Sola Scriptura" and yet are so obsessed with the post-Apostolic church leaders?
What a blessing finding your page!! Can you please make a video where you can show the 3 positions ( Calvanism, Armenianisn, and Provisionism. ) I want to also understand the differences in Provisionism and Armenianisn. Because I clearly understand the comparisons with Calvinism but not to much with Armenianisn.
Thank God for your ministry.
God bless
I can help with that. There are several differences between Provisionism (which is a term Dr. Flowers himself coined a few years ago to describe the traditional, non-Calvinist Southern Baptist view) and Arminianism.
Theologically, Provisionism differs from Arminianism in that while each accepts one of the "Five Points of Calvinism" ("TULIP") the one each accepts is different. Arminianism accepts the "T" (Total Depravity), but unlike the Calvinists, Arminians hold that God provides a universal "Prevenient Grace" that enables unbelievers to realize the truth of the Gospel and respond positively to it, something Calvinism teaches is impossible, and that God has to "elect" and "predestine" certain individuals to salvation, and that He regenerates such individuals before they hear the Gospel to enable them to respond positively to it. Provisionism rejects Total Depravity entirely, and thus doesn't need any "workaround" for it like Arminianism does. For their part, Provisionists accept a form of the "P" of Calvinism ("Perseverance of the Saints"), which maintains that anyone who is truly saved cannot lose that status, and that anyone who turns away from the faith never truly believed or was saved to begin with. The Provisionist position does differ subtly from the Calvinist one in that Calvinists tend to be more insistent that salvation be "proven" by works than Provisionists are. Arminians reject this, and teach that it is possible for a person who is truly saved to fall away from that salvation. Personally, as a member of the Christian Church (Independent, not Disciples of Christ), I reject all 5 points of Calvinism, and would agree with the Provisionists on Total Depravity and with the Arminians on Perseverance of the Saints/Eternal Security/Once Saved Always Saved.
Historically, Arminianism is based on the teachings of Jacob Arminius, who was one of the leading theologians in early Calvinism. He was the prize pupil of Theodore Beza, who in turn had been the prize pupil of John Calvin, and had succeeded Calvin as the leader of Calvinism. Arminius saw several clear problems with the official positions that his mentor Beza promoted, and came up with his own answers that better addressed the issues. However, he remained a devoted Calvinist his entire life, and accepted most of Calvin's doctrines and presuppositions. Shortly after Arminius' death at about age 50, the Calvinists of the day met at the Synod of Dort, where they considered the arguments that Arminius and those within Calvinism who agreed with him. The Synod chose to "double down" on Beza's teachings, and released the Canons of Dort, which categorically condemned Arminius' teachings as heretical and listed their arguments against "Arminianism". The essence of the Canons of Dort were later simplified into the "TULIP" acronym, also known as the "Five Points of Calvinism". Arminianism went from being a label for a "heretical" sect persecuted by Calvinists in areas they controlled to a more positive term when John Wesley embraced a form of their soteriology and linked it to his Methodist movement in Britain, and which soon spread to America and other British colonies.
Provisionism, on the other hand, is linked to the history of the Baptist movement. Early Baptists came from a branch of the English Separatists in Holland (the same group the Pilgrims who founded Plymouth Colony in America belonged to, though a separate branch of that group). They quickly split into a Provisionist group, known as the "General Baptists" and a Calvinist group, known as the "Particular Baptists". Both groups eventually migrated to America, and churches descended from them exist to this day.
I give glory to God for my salvation while I was steeped in sin, a wretched sinner. Not boasting, but testifying what Christ did in my life.
This is a very well presented and thought out video.
It is time that the theories of Calvin be permanently laid to rest, they impugn the character and holiness of God.
If it makes you feel better to believe that God is not in charge of everything then go ahead. One day we're going to find out if he is or not.
Wow I praise God for what I'm hearing here. I think way back I may have been one of those you had to, at the time, diverge in a debate. I've seen many things since and was like 'is this the same guy?'
Brother I'm 27 from India , I'm struggling with this issues in life and as you said u have to leave your home church , things are somehow to related to me I never imagine my life this way. Still will not do anything that will please man over God
Great job explaining a complicated theology --I do believe God predestined some people for specific purposes, but not the entire church. I also admit I don't have the answer and will continue to pray for discernment and accept things I might not fully understand until I am with God in heaven. Your video describes my current understanding very well.
When I first became a Oneness Pentecostal I started to listen to the opposite sides point of view and I got a lot of John MacArthur and RC Sproul and I could see where we differed and where we were the same, but I ultimately came to the conclusion that Calvinism came off as arrogant through its teachers and pastors and all who preach Calvinist Teachings, but what really did it in the end was when I saw John MacArthur try to to explain why some are chosen and others are not and his response really spoke to me that they would prefer to defend their false doctrine to the death than to admit they are wrong and call everyone else wrong because they have too much to lose
That's true only GOD can save them from it
You have helped me answer the question is Calvinism correct doctrine? Thank you so much. Love the work you are doing! I have such peace and hope now.
I do appreciate your kindness and your willingness to at least understand both sides of the argument. Obviously thier are great theologians on both sides of the disagreement and humility and kindness towards each other should be at the forefront of the discussion. For me personally it doesn't change the way I worship our Lord Jesus Christ .
I still consider myself a Calvinist but I’m far more open-minded than I used to be. I still see the system as being more biblically consistent than, say, Wesleyan Arminianism, but have often wondered if there might not be an acceptable space somewhere in between. I readily admit that Calvinism has its own inconsistencies, several of which you’ve pointed out.
Time and maturity have eroded much of my dogmatism. My family even left a PCA Presbyterian church for a non-denominational church where the pure gospel is still preached, but to a fellowship of mixed soteriological views. It’s been freeing to say the least.
What has probably turned me off most about Calvinism has been the Calvinists themselves. I get that many are young and immature. I won’t hold that against them. It’s just a shame that a theological system that places so much emphasis on God’s grace and man’s fallenness would produce followers who seemingly love to boast in their “enlightened” awareness of these things. While proclaiming salvation as being “by grace alone,” many go on to act as if they’ve still done a little something to contribute to their election.
I appreciate your openness and humility. You’re coming at this with the right spirit. Keep up the great content.
that is not Molinism
No, the place in between the two is the Bible! One side of the road is Calvinism and the other side of the road is Arminianism. We don't have to wreck the car on either side of the road. We stay on the road which is the Bible road. The 5-pointers think everyone who disagrees with Calvinism is an Arminian. They think someone's either one or another. Not true. You are wrong. It has nothing to do with being undecided.
In between? Biblical Christian universalism/restoration. Not kiding! Humbly check it out. Not just what people say universalism is but what it actually is. I guess you could say it brings truths from both calvinism and arminianism together and it is the most beautiful gospel of good news for ALL. 😊
Calvinism leads to hell
I saw a video on it
Mr Flowers another excellent video. Could you please do a video on TULIP using only scriptures to knock down each letter. I would like to do it myself if I could. Keep up the great work. Hopefully more people will see your videos
Watch a video on UA-cam by Dave Hunt on the subject of Calvinism. He knocks down the points with Scriptures.
@@timjoann1 Hahaha...Dave Hunt? That guy is so tangled in his traditions that he can't even figure out what Calivinist's say let alone refute them.
In my experience, those who try and "knock down" what Calvinists believe don't do so on the basis of the text itself, it ALWAYS boils down to some philosophical objection to what they THINK Calvinist's say.
Mike Winger made a video on Calvinism where he approaches TULIP from a biblical perspective
@@timjoann1 OK thanks
@@ClauGutierrezY OK thanks
As a Christian though I deem myself as in between Calvinism and Arminianism, it does not mean that I do not explore other Christian thoughts like Lutheranism and Anglicanism because what I hold above all is the salvation I received through faith in Christ our Lord.
Thank you for your patience and God bless.
Dr. Flowers could you please comment on the Christain rap album Extra Nos by Flame in a furure video? He is now an ex-Calvinist.
Leighton, help me with these questions:
1. Is there anything that has ever happened or will ever happen that didn’t first exist in the mind of God?
2. If the answer is no, how do we avoid determinism?
3. If the answer is yes, then did God suspend His omniscience somehow?
Thanks
I love this! So concise!
5 SOLA see 1 Samuel 23:10-14. God’s foreknowledge does not mean that the thing must happen.
See also Jeremiah 19:5-6. Israel did things that did not even come into God’s mind.
God knew it as a possibility, as He knows all things. However, knowing what someone may do in the future, even for God, does not necessitate said thing. Free agency has been granted to angels and all God’s Imagers
@@timbertome2443 And so Open Theism it is and we sacrifice God's omniscience? God knows and determines, not only predicts, the future. At least this is the psalmist's perspective on things in Psalm 139:16.
As to your examples:
1 Sam 23 - There's a difference between "what will happen" and "what will happen if". David was asking for wisdom on whether to stay or leave. God told him what would happen if he stayed. That doesn't mean that it would definitely happen. It also doesn't mean God didn't know what would actually happen. We see the same principle at work in God's real promise Saul to establish his kingdom forever in 1 Sam 13:13 and yet already from Gen 49:10 it was clear that the eternal kingship would go to the tribe of Judah and not to Saul from the tribe of Benjamin.
Jer 19 - The word translated in your translation as "mind" is actually "heart" both in Hebrew and in Greek. This expression doesn't mean to say that God didn't see it coming. It says, along with the fact that He rules out speaking or commanding it, that it is morally fully unlike Him, it would never come up in His heart. Clear indicators that it cannot mean that He didn't see it coming is that centuries prior He gave clear commandments against child sacrifices (Lev 18:21; 20:3; Deut 12:30-31; 18:10). Because He knew it would happen.
Benjamin Schäfer as to Psalm 139:16, why do you assume that the content of David's says are determined by God, and not just the number of his days? "The days that were formed for me..." Why can't that just mean that the length of David's days was known to God?
1Samuel 23:10-14, David doesn't ask an "If, then" question, and God doesn't answer with an "if, then" answer. I think you're reading that into the text, perhaps. I'm reading from ESV, btw...
As to Jeremiah 19, what's the scriptural difference between having something in one's heart and mind, in the OT? "I have hidden your words in my heart" surely that statement means putting God's word into ones mind, and application. Something not coming into God's mind verses something not coming into God's heart seems a bit of a hazy differentiation...
1. What do you mean by "first exist"? God is atemporal. Therefore, "first" must refer to the order of causation. Sin "exists" in the mind of God only inasmuch as he sees it is out there in his creation, but God's mind is certainly not the first cause of sin. That's one reason why I would have to consider myself a blasphemer if I were to subscribe to the Calvinist belief system.
2 & 3. Note that there are different types of determinism. Physical determinism is the belief that the future world state can be computed in principle from knowledge of the past and present. Logical determinism is the belief that a statement about tomorrow is already true or false today, although we don't know yet which it is. This is not the same as strong theological determinism, the belief that everything has been foreordained by God. Weak theological determinism says that God is omniscient, that is, he knew "before time" for every statement whether it would be true or false. This obviously does not imply that he decreed everything that comes to pass. It also does not require God's omniscience to be suspended.
For some reason, Calvinists think God is unable to create things which have the capability to be first causes independent from His will, for example sources of true randomness or creatures with a free will. Maybe it is like Mr. Flowers says: They misunderstand the meaning of "sovereign".
Another interesting aspect to consider: God knows not only what will be, but also what would have happened if he had done certain things. This still doesn't mean that he controls every last detail of what happens. In Matt 11:21-22, Jesus explicitly claims this ability with respect to God's foreknowledge of salvation. So here he says that the people of Tyre and Sidon would have repented if God had done certain outwardly things, but God didn't do these things. He *did* do these things in Chorazin and Bethsaida, and they did not repent. I would say it is still entirely the Sidonian's and Tyrian's (?) responsibility that they did not respond to what little revelation God has given them so they might know him, and Jesus also makes it clear that Chorazin and Bethsaida, having received a clearer revelation and having rejected it, will be judged more harshly. I think this incident gives us a glimpse of how God's sovereignty plays out despite men having free will.
God *could* go to great lengths to virtually ensure someone repents, and He knows exactly what to do, but whether He does or doesn't, it's still that persons free decision. In the gospels, we see that although Jesus desires people to be saved, He also much prefers it if people turn to him out of faith and not because they've seen seen spectacular miracles, and He certainly isn't obligated to perform a miracle for everyone. Because faith based on miracles isn't necessarily the same as faith (i.e. trust) in God, and Romans 1:20 makes it clear that the revelation God has given to everyone through his works in creation should be sufficient. Everything beyond that is greater grace, and God would still be just and loving if he would not have granted it.
Firstly, I just wanted to say "thank you" for openly and humbly addressing this subject of Calvinism... most refreshing!
Having come out of a totally non-churched (New Age) background I had no prior reference or experience with this subject of Calvinism. It wasn't until I decided to return to school (seminary at Liberty U.), 5 years after placing all my hope and trust in Christ, that such debate among believers was witnessed.
I was honestly quite shocked by the TULIP doctrines (as well as hyper-predestination of the elect)... up until this time I was absorbed in the scriptures like "a newborn baby" (1 Peter 2:2), and never conceived of this controversy. I had come to comprehend the "simplicity that is in Christ" (2 Corinthians 11:3) and overwhelming admonition regarding what the scriptures had to say regarding one word, BELIEVE (gr. pisteuō)... so at this time the core premise of Calvinism (the denial of human volition, or free will) was a bit shocking and the premise that God instill the ability to believe seemed to be inherently contradicting.
All this to say that I am grateful for your putting forth the journey the Lord has you on, and my prayers are that you will continue to be His voice in this generation for the truth of Jesus and the hope of life eternal with Him in heaven.
John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John. 6:35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.
Acts 16:31 “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
Romans 3:22 - the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.
1 Corinthians 1:21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.
Ephesians 1:18-19 ...what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe.
1 Thessalonians 4:14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.
Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
1 John 3:23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.
Humbly? Haha he had to first announce how great of a debater he is..:-D
Your story has really hit me. I grew up in a reformed church, but I was lucky to have a pastor that focused on the study of scripture before the study of Calvinism. I grew up hearing the words of the Bible as they were meant to be read, and really did not hear anything at all about Calvinism nor Arminianism nor any church arguments about whatever. My pastor taught me correctly and did not care to argue about this kind of thing. I did not understand anything about Calvinism until i was in 10th grade. I had heard the name a few times before but I didn’t know what it was all about. When I first understood the doctrines of 5-point high Calvinism I was repulsed by it. It was disgusting to me. I was on a journey of coming back to faith in god in that time and worrying about it being true caused me much anxiety. I eventually had deep depression because I believed I was reprobate and didn’t have the free will ability to come to faith. This was because I was naturally so repulsed by Calvinism and had recently been taught that Calvinism is the truth of the Bible so I thought myself incapable of being a Christian. Calvinist made me repulsed by the Bible because they put it in my head that high Calvinism is the whole truth of the Bible and that if you don’t believe it you aren’t being an honest Christian. My natural repulsion for high 5-point Calvinism had become a repulsion for the word because calvinists made me believe it was one in the same. I wasn’t able to be Christian until I pushed all thoughts of the useless arguments of doctrine out of my head and read the word once again. This story brings me strength in my faith in the word and the word alone which saved me from my depression and feeling of exclusion from God. Thank you this is very needed as I am in the middle of a theology class in my school that I must sit through that only tries to hammer 5-point Calvinism into our heads. It affects my relationship with god greatly and is bringing back some of the anxieties of my previous belief in the doctrine. All I have to say for anyone reading, if you are teaching a new believer about god, focus on the showing them the word not your specific doctrine. Allow the word to explain the word and allow God to do his work. As long as your student seeks the truth, that is god, honestly he will be ok. Give him help when he needs but don’t push things onto him, and pray earnestly and make sure that your help is what is best for him, not spreading your very specific system of theology. For anyone that is trying to argue with me remember that I am mainly arguing against catching believers in the cross fire of useless doctrinal arguments, not just arguing about Calvinism. Calvinism had just been my experience.
Could you tell me what you see in 1 Peter 2 7-8? Or The situation with Esau?
Ty so glad i found ur channel ... All i was listening to was sproils MacArthur alister etc.. Yet would have nightmares falling asleep to em for some reason
Glory Glory to GOD in the highest!!
Thank you for this video!!
Leighton I always enjoy listening to you. Much grace in your demeanor. I am sharing this with two young men whom I know considering g Calvinism.
Whatever your struggle was I believe God will use your story greatly.
I have never embraced Calvinism but I do read Austin Fischer’s book which was a beautiful story. I look forward to reading your book.
I’m sure it will be another plunge into a deeper look at our great God.
Thank you for your willingness to lay anything down for the sake of Him. Blessings!
Professor Flowers, in your view has God known forever who those who will eventually be saved(the elect)?
The three hardest words for any preacher to say is, "I was wrong". Like you said it would put into question everything else the preacher taught.
Extremely hard. Almost impossible.