Why John Lennox rejects Calvinism
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- Опубліковано 14 жов 2024
- Here from John Lennox himself as he teaches on the doctrine of free will (which contradicts leading Calvinistic scholars) and he explains why this is the better way...
For more on this subject go to www.soteriology101.com
Since this video Lennox published a book titled: “Determined to Believe?” in which he gives a strong defense of what Provisionists believe.
I would highly recommend that amazing book!
he rejects it because he reads his bible
I love John Lennox he is by far one of my favorite apologists.
ditto
@@curiousgeorge555 *_God Bless_*
Big time!
Dr. Lennox is the proof that an educated fool is more foolish than an uneducated one.
A very smart man and explains things so well! I have thought about these things for years now and realize I am a "Provisionist."
Me, too!
@@cynthiasnyder1561 *_God Bless_*
John Lennox does in fact take on Calvinism in his book Determined To Believe but has such a respectful, loving and coherent case. Well worth the read.
? you saying he supports or rejects it?
Specifically, "Determined to Believe?" (with a question mark)
@@blackfalkon4189 Short answer is, he rejects it. Bottom line, he takes one side and "stops when it contradicts the other".
@@blackfalkon4189 "Takes on" as in "challenges it"
John Lennox is amazingly clear and right in what he is saying! Common sense does exist! I need to watch more of his talks.
Truth in love
What a wonderful explanation of free will! What a wonderful way to point to God without straight-jackets.
I totally 👍💯
I have yet to have someone clarify what free will is, on a scriptural basis. I say that genuinely. The bible says that we are slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness. And dead in sin, until quickened by The Spirit. No man who is born again (as a gift of God by The Spirit), rejects God. Why is that?
Totally with you on this one. And you got the right person (Lennox) on the subject.
Love John Lennox, as well as Leighton's ministry. A great treat, finding this video.
John Lennox is a blessing. I know his brother, he was an elder in Ireland and has been tought by Prof. Gooding who is also NOT a Calvinist.
So sorry for Prof Lennox and for Prof Gooding!
Why? If you are a pre-determinist there is nothing to be sorry for. God ordained it before beginning of the world, right? Nah, I wouldn't be sorry for them, I would question if Augustine and Calvin got the right idea. Why is Gooding and Lennox against determinism? Because sovereignty is not contradicting God's love. Anyway, I guess you disagree with all above and there is no need to have endless debate here.
Ivan perfect answer to someone, like most Calvinist, come off as narcissistic little gods, their smugness is not appealing 1 bit, kinda like a staunch atheist.
@@IvanAgram How is it loving for God to choose some but not others to be saved? God doesn’t show favoritism. Romans 2:11. Adam and Eve had a choice. We all do. The Israelites have been rebelling from the start but God still gives them a choice to repent. If they r destined to go to hell, then y even bother? What is the point of repentance? If u going to hell or Heaven anyway. What is the point of sharing the Gospel? If certain people will be destined to be saved and some will be destined to go to hell. It makes 0 sense and is the opposite of the teachings of the Bible. People blame God when they sin because they think it’s his doing. It’s not. Take responsibility. God doesn’t force people to be saved. You are saved by grace through FAITH, not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9. God will not call those who don’t want to pick up, but when God calls u can’t hang up. Choose this day whom you will serve. Joshua 24:15. Salvation is today. 2 Corinthians 6:2. Repent and trust in Jesus
@@Alexander07865 sorry... I am not a Calvinist. I would agree on everything you said except I believe God is calling everybody.
God bless you sir for taking the time to explain these concepts of faith to us.
*_God Bless_*
I really like John Lennox. Smart man!!!
It's safe to say that Lennox is a true genius. But more than that, a man who loves Jesus Christ.
I find it interesting that the most compelling apologists do not adhere to calvinism but stand on a more provisional point.
That in my opinion is because they are logical beings and it's obvious that calvinism is logically inconsistent
@@randatatang9222hahahaha
John Lennox don't uses his bible. God don't take risks my brothers!
@BrayanBarahona to what risk are you referring?
@@Elmarias777 the risk on "creating the universe" with people that may be choose Him or maybe not as John Lennox says. That IS NOT the Bible's God. He (God) knows everything and He works with a master plan from the beginning, in the eternity. That plan is JESUS CHRIST.
I believe in a loving just God an omniscient God , in judgement day no one will say uhh I wasn’t lucky enough to be chosen
Amen!!
I believe the vast majority of the doctrine commonly known as “tulip.”
Please have a conversation with me. I desire to know the truth and I recognize that I am not perfect in my understanding. I have been raised in a Primitive Baptist church that teaches this doctrine. Please talk to me if you believe I am being misled.
@@lukehumes2402 Ironically, primitive baptists are not "primitive" in their theology nor in their church organization or ways of worship. They really have little in common with traditional baptists. John Calvin drowned Baptists for disagreeing with him on infant baptism so really only been in recent years that reformed/Calvinist theology has infiltrated Baptist organizations.
Their false claims about themselves are that they are how the early church was but these reformed theologies were not in the early church, they are typically non-charismatic, cessationist, hyper-religiois, and hyper-legalistic.
If you are a born again, Spirit-filled believer then I would ask you to humble yourself to the Holy Spirit and ask God to discern the truth to you and then trust Him not the doctrines of man. If you have not been born again and do not have a personal, literal, 2 way relationship with the Lord, then you know your next step.
Strawman
John Lennox is a lovely brother with an extraordinary intellect and clarity of thought
I love Leighton's graciousness and thorough expl
anations.
What a mind! Thank God for John Lennox.
This is my all time favorite video. I love Lennox he is so clear yet kind hearted & funny.
Thank you for sharing this, Dr. Flowers. The second clip from John Lennox gives an eloquent description of what I call “Divine Irreconcilability”: there are truths relating to the sovereignty of God and the free will of man that are designed by God to be beyond our ability to understand.
Anthony Baker yes, but Calvinist will deny this wholeheartedly, kinda like they know everything & if you believe different, you’re clueless.
Yes Anthony, I think that is true. T Austin Sparks, who is the best bible teacher I have read, wrote that "reconciling free will and God's sovereignty is beyond us, we cannot do it". The problem with calvanists is they think they have worked it all out, but they have done it by putting all the emphasis on God's sovereignty, thereby negating many scriptures.
I agree, Anthony. Flowers would disagree as he repeatedly suggests it's easy to understand and questions its mysteriousness.
How does free will go beyond our ability to understand?
A sovereign God gave his creatures a choice.
Don’t overthink it.
God owns His salvation, am just doing my best to show, through my obedience of His word, my utmost thankfulness for allowing me to have a 2nd chance in life.
josue jumalon,
You are one of the elect....
@@52RGD No, he elected to believe in Christ when hearing his word. He then became In Him predestined for salvation .
@@RESISTFEAR No. All are invited, "whoever....". All are predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son. Few realise their origin and destiny in God.
What lots of people (even pastors) don't (yet) understand.
God created us according to His own image and likeness. Godly.
Mankind/the first Adam fell. The image of God in man got lost. That's why there is all this predicament on earth (selfishness, greed, lust, wars, sicknesses, death, etc).
We are all born into that mess.
For the fall of man a perfect atoning sacrifice had to be made.... that is what God did in Christ.
With His own once and for all perefect sacrifice, He paid the debt for the fall of man for us, so we can be indwelled by His Spirit again and finally receive the divine life of the ages back, the first Adam let got of in the fall of man. An amazing act of grace and love by our creator.
That is what you see happening in Christ's first disciples. They too healed all and walked in unselfish love.
And yes.... that is still avaible today. The holy blood is in place, the Holy Spirit is here to give us understanding, power and transform us back to origin.
Not to be debated about, but to be embraced and be-come.
So: The Kingdom of God already came. Through Christ, in Spiritform, in those that understand.
Hence the divine healing miracles we experience.
God manifested in Christ to give us back the divine life mankind lost in the fall of Adam.
Christ, the exact image of the invisible God.
The image we were created after in Gen 1.
The image we lost in the fall of man.
The image that can be freely restored by Christ's blood and Holy Spirit working IN us.
What a plan. What a solution. What a love. What a God. Jesus is amazing.
It is the ultimate conclusion of the word and plan of God. God came full circle.
He Himself stooped down from glory to restore us back to original created value: Christlikeness. Walking in divine healing power and unselfish love.
Jesus, born of the Spirit of God, filled with the spirit of God. The "Son" of God, the incarnated word, God in the flesh.
For three years He healed all, raised the dead, casted out demons, controlled nature, spoke pure divine truth.
He said:
"Follow Me. If you see Me, you see the Father. The Father and I are one. The glory I have IN My Father, I give to you. It pleases the Father to give you His Kingdom/Holy Spirit/divine nature. I will send Holy Spirit, the same as Me, He will be IN you, guide you into truth and give you explosive power. The same miracles i do, you will do too, because you will understand that the Father is IN Me and I am IN you. Freely I give you My Kingdom/Holy Spirit/divine nature, heal the sick, raise the dead, cast out demons, freely I give, freely share" Etc, etc, etc.
I have experienced thousands of beautifull healing miracles through the power of Holy Spirit IN me already. Broken bones, cancers, covid, all kinds of infirmities healed in seconds. Demons manifesting and casted out by a simple "get out, in Jesus name".
Jesus. De name above all names. In Him all power and wisdom is sourced and.... He calls us one with Him. God in man and man in God again. C'mon Jesus!!
So.... again: God stooped down IN Christ to restore us back to Gen 1:27 were He said: "Let us make man according to our image and likeness and let them have authority.....": walk as Christ.
Christ, the exact image of the invisible God. The image we were created after and being restored to by His atoning blood for the fall of man and indwelling Holy Spirit.
You are free to receive this original divine life of the ages by Holy Spirit of Christ/God. Ask Him to guide you into truth. Read the Gospel of John and fall in love with your creator.
You are not made for the fall of man and its effects, but for the image/glory of God and to walk like Christ. Holy Spirit is the guide and transforming power that will get you there. Amazing grace.
A big leap in faith can be made when we start realizing we are already IN Christ, IN the last Adam.
Free from the fall! Loved! Growing into awareness of our new (yet old) godly identity. Changing by Holy Spirit. The most fullfilled life ever.
Paul healed all on Malta. He understood and wrote:
"As in the first Adam ALL died (lost the divine nature), so also ALL were made alive IN Christ to walk in Zoë (= divine life) again".
"IN Christ (the last Adam) we are co-cruisified (dead to the fall and its effects), co-raised (justified/made righteousness, holy, blameless, above reproach), co-seated (one with Him)"
"The fullness of deity dwells in Christ and YOU HAVE BEEN MADE COMPLETE IN HIM, who is the head of every principality and power".
So.... thank you Jesus! Thank you for redeeming me from the fall of man. Thank you for your Holy Spirit that makes this new (yet old) divine life come alive in me. You are amazing!
In the shadow of Peter the sick healed... He understood too and wrote:
"By Gods power (Holy Spirit) and knowing Christ, we have become partakers of the divine nature and have escaped the fall of man".
The divine life of the ages has been returned to us by Jesus once and for all perfect atoning sacrifice for the debt of the fall of man and His indwelling Holy Spirit in us. Jesus/God is amazing!!!
Ask Him to give you revelation and change you to the way it was before the fall of man: Christlikeness.
He will do so. For it is written: "the Spirit brings forth after His own kind".
"I have come to give you Zoë (divine life) in abundance...."
@@SilenceDogwood. I'm not a Calvinist. Read my statement carefully. I was responding to a Calvinist who thinks God elects those to be In Christ before him or her was even born. I pointed out that one chooses of his free will to believe In Christ, after that being sealed In Him. Salvation Is predestined by God for us, the ones that after hearing the gospel then believing in Jesus. My response to @52RGD was in a way a calvinist would understand 😉
@@SilenceDogwood. All Good brother. God Bless you, and your family.
Ravi Zacharias, John Lennox, William Lane Craig, C.S. Lewis, A.W. Tozer, all brilliant scholars all believe in freewill.
Bee Boy
I don't think Toezer believes in free will.
God bless
"God sovereignly decreed that man should be free to exercise moral choice, and man from the beginning has fulfilled that decree by making his choice between good and evil. When he chooses to do evil, he does not thereby countervail the sovereign will of God but fulfills it, inasmuch as the eternal decree decided not which choice the man should make but that he should be free to make it. If in His absolute freedom God has willed to give man limited freedom, who is there to stay His hand or say, “What doest thou?” Man’s will is free because God is sovereign. A God less than sovereign could not bestow moral freedom upon His creatures. He would be afraid to do so." - A. W. Tozer
Leighton addresses Tozer's thoughts in other videos as well, particularly how Calvinists will claim Tozer even though he does not actually agree with them.
Blessings
Austin Ross
I stand corrected. It was an Arminian who said he was a Calvinist. This man was also a big fan of Tozer's and has read all his writings. Maybe he expressed different views throughout his ministry.
???
God bless
And sadly, all of them on this issue are wrong. Being a brilliant scholar does not make you right.
Mark Rogers - it does not make you right, no. But it does make your argument worth looking at. And their arguments are valid, not to mention supported by numerous scriptures and most scholars/believers within the church.
I fell into the rabbit hole of calvinism for a couple of years. Thanks God, He dug me out of it. Calvinism is damaging
I am praying that my fiance can come to see that. It hurts.
@@888biblestudy praying for him too
@@SilenceDogwood. I agree
@@SilenceDogwood.
It's philosophy, not theology. An idea, not the Gospel.
@@SilenceDogwood. Amen. It's a very repulsive trait for a Christian to have IMO. There's a fine line between boldly standing for what you believe and being an obnoxious blowhard.
Prof, it's almost impossible to keep up on all this content you post. Two videos in a day? You're a machine! (But not in the deterministic way)
Maurice Harting wow, now you would argue that to believe in free will is a heresy! Did you know that if you’re wrong that you are committing blasphemy? So sad, but Scripture says that we are known by our love.
Beautifully said by John Lennox.
One of the greatest debates in Christianity. I’ve always felt that truth is somewhere in the middle. Because there is evidence of God compelling people and creating vessels of honorable use vs dishonerable use. But Gods sovereignty is supreme.
God did not make robots
I enjoy listening to John Lennox.
Tozer absolutely believes in freewill. Check out this quote from him." God sovereinly decreed that man should be free to exercise moral choice, and man from the beginning has fulfilled that decree by making his choice between good and evil. When he chooses to do evil he does not thereby counter vail the sovereign will of God, but fulfills it, insomuch as the eternal decree of decided not which choice the man should make but that he should be free to make it. If in his absolute freedom God has willed to give man limited freedom, who is there to stay his hand or say "What doest thou?" Mans will is free because God is sovereign. A God less than sovereign could not bestow moral freedom upon his creatures, he would be afraid to do so." A.W. Towzer ( The knowledge of the Holy Attributes of God)
Bee Boy Amen. So often the Calvinist says: "Man has no free will because God is sovereign" when in fact, His sovereignty is THE very reason we are indeed free to choose. It seems the Calvinist is too dense to see this. They have an "either or... all or nothing" mentality that has morbidly affected not only their doctrine...but how they interact with others.
Thanks so much for sharing that quote from Dr. Tozer. Do you know which of his books this quote came from?
You're right. I too often hear Calvinist say "if man had libertarian freewill than God can't be Sovereign." But a lot of Calvinists believe that Adam and Eve had libertarian freewill which leads to the question was God NOT Sovereign then? This is a point that Leighton often makes.
The A.W. Tozer quote is from The Knowledge of the Holy (Authentic Media 2008) pp144-145
Bee Boy I absolutely and wholeheartedly agree. Thanks for replying and thanks for letting me know which book it is in. Ironically enough, I have that book in both printed and audio form (but have yet to utilize either). I'm glad I have the book so I can see the quote in its greater context.
Have a fantabulous week bro.
God gives man the freedom to follow the desires of his heart.
He does not, however, give man the freedom to change his desires. He retains that ability for Himself.
(Eg, if man had the ability to change his desires, he could simply, say, stop desiring sin, right?)
@@timfoster5043 To desire a change, one must realize what they are doing is not "good."
Wonderful post. I love Lennox's mind. A thoughtful and rugged thinker!
Most importantly what he says must be biblical.
@@samuel-z3o dirr
John Lennox is a breathe of fresh air
This intro is hilarious!!!! :)
Thanks for cheering up my day Leighton.
So excellent is Sir John Lennox. May God bless u.
The greatest commandment is to love god. You can’t love without free will.
You just dropped the mic, bro. Case closed. Turn out the lights.
All we have is selfwill. Only God has free will. We can't love God with a corrupt heart, and that dead heart is only quickened by the Holy Spirit. Haven't met anyone who gave birth to themselves into the world.
"By His own will beget He us"
@@jeonesevenv9 I totally agree. How can we choose to submit to God if the Bible tells us that we're totally depraved and naturally we don't seek God? We can't choose Him without the intervention of the Holy Spirit.
Genesis 29/12:
And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him:
*for now I know*
that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
Just wondering if the original poster has read any Calvin directly or even early Calvinists like John Owen? They don't deny free will. In fact, Owen famously wrote "God does not do violence to our will." He would not believe in determinism if he heard the term. We are morally responsible creatures, which is what free will is about. Predestination has to do with the question of primacy of activity in salvation. The Spirit works in the hearts of people BEFORE they repent freely. That work is not coercive but "wooing" or winning one over. It is about working in a person so that they willingly choose repentance. The Calvinist/Arminian debate needs to be carried out with surgical precision, "scalpels" so to speak, not bludgeoning with a club. These are finely tuned, nuanced theological discussions not generalities.
David Williams I've come to a similar conclusion, that the camps are not complete opposites.
These men have no interest in it. They only wish to boast in their own wisdom in choosing God.
Jonathan Cox But God's choice precedes ours (from the creation of th world-Ephesians 1) and therefore is the determining factor. That's what grace means. John 15:16 you did not choose me, but I chose you. -Jesus
Frank Eckenroad Frank Eckenroad you're changing the subject. The original comment was claiming that John Calvin and John Owens believed in Freewill.
Jonathan Cox simply responded by saying that true freewill includes the ability to say yes or no to salvation, and in that sense Calvin and Owens deny true freewill.
I hope you can see how throwing scripture at John Cox you haven't addressed his point (the meaning of freewill.) All you've done is claim that the bible doesn't support freewill..
@@jonathancox9488 Got to be careful mate. I tend more towards Arminian Theology, but the idea of loving God is only possible because God truly and really loves you. Our love for God is borne out of His initial loving of the fallen creature and is really dependent on His Love. We learn to love the way God intended it as we receive His merciful love through Jesus Christ. No other way. It exposes just how needy we, as created beings are. God desires us to desire Him and to depend on Him for everything, but because of sin's entrance and corruption we have become unable. We need a new heart. It is not our choosing of Jesus Christ that makes us new, it is His choosing of you and I. However, His choice is the method of Grace whereby one can reject it or receive it. Another way of looking at it is this; When you go for a job you make your best case before the employer and they ultimately decide whether or not they will choose you for the job. Now I understand it is a very flawed analogy because there is no way that God chooses us based on our merit or worth as an employer might do. But the underlying principle is that it is God who makes the choice of who will be saved and who will not. The choice for salvation rests completely with Him. The beautiful thing is that He desires the salvation of everybody, but He will not save everybody because the only way that anybody can be saved is by Grace and sinners don't want Grace. He will tell you when His Word goes forth whether or not you have received His Grace in Christ. It is His choice, not yours. You simply resist or receive the Truth. We have a will, it is free in regards to our choices, however it can never be truly free to do good because we ourselves are not free. Human beings are slaves to sin. There is One alone Who is Good, One Alone Who is Wise, One Alone Who receives the Glory Forever and Ever. When people realise this and submit to His Righteousness, we know then that Christ has chosen them indeed. Paul said that he knew some people were chosen by God because they received the Word gladly. But it must be remembered that God's choosing is never arbitrary but always based on His Love and desire to save everybody. But most unfortunately, will resist His Grace, therefore He has not chosen them. Another important thing to remember is that God lives outside of time and that is why we can say that God has not chosen some but He has chosen others. His choice is based on His foreknowledge, so in effect He has already chosen. Surrendering to the Truth is about as free as our choice will be before we are truly free to become slaves of Righteousness. We are but dust my brother. Yet God loves this dust. He is truly Someone to fear. God bless you
This is the the greatest reason to hold the traditionalist view against Calvinism, in my estimation. Or, better yet, the provisionalist view.
Some say that they do not hold all of the 5-points of Calvinism, but logically, I think it would be all or nothing. Nevertheless, in order for love to be actualized, God granted us a choice. I’m thankful to Him for demonstrating His great love, for He has won me by His grace.
Furthermore, I thank Him for providing teachers, particularly Bro Flowers, for fighting in the front lines for truth. Jesus said that if we seek it out, that we shall indeed find it out.
I love this guy.
PS. It’s real love. I’m not a robot
Is Calvin himself mentioned in the Bible? Since when has he been elevated to the level if the Apostles?
When I first became aware of Calvin and his teachings I immediately thought the same. It is the ultimate comparison that SHOULD be applied when questioning or doubting a teacher other than those in the Bible. I am very leery of the works of Man.
To be fair to Calvin, if you aren't careful, it can seem that God is sovereign and He is the only factor at play in salvation. To a certain extent, even, that is true. He makes the gift, packages it, delivers it to us, and offers it to us. We have nothing to do with the gift at all. But we still have to take the amazon box from outside and put it in our house and open it. I think that this illustration at least seems to be accurate, although it might be a little off. Either way, given the choice between Calvinism and a works-based Catholicism, for example, Calvinism is significantly better.
ClassyCactus , neither of those are a good choice. Catholicism is devoid of the WORD and Calvinism strips GOD of sovereignty. Faith + nothing = salvation!
@@kingfobbit399
No. Grace + nothing ---> faith --> Salvation.
By grace, through faith. Grace saves, but it is received through faith.
And I realize that neither of them are a good choice, I merely said that a person is much more likely to be saved if they are a Calvinist, than if they are a catholic, because a Calvinist can still repent and put their trust in Jesus.
ClassyCactus , that is a circular argument. So the Grace comes first? So the Faithless already have Grace? No, Faith is first (in that you accept the gift) and when you are convicted you are under Grace. By your assertion even evil people are under Grace and they reject salvation, that makes no sence. Calvinism is heresy and undoubtedly the works of man. Otherwise JESUS would have clearly taught it.
If someone tells me that I choose according to my greatest desire, and so I decide to choose the opposite of what I normally would choose, just to contradict that person, then I guess my greatest innate desire in that moment was to prove them wrong.
John Lennox rejects Calvinism because he believes the biblical narrative, not Platonist lies.
Reformed theology is not platonist.
@@davegibbs6423I agree.
Calvinism was what another pagan (by virtue of pushing for the killing of those he deemed heretics and of owning slaves) came up with.
I guess it's either the Holy Spirit made him an astute theologian that somehow missed the basics, like "Thou shalt not kill"...or I am pardoned for looking at his fruit (as the Word suggests) and call him a pagan. One that followed the steps of satan, and not Christ's words.
@@szilardfineascovasa6144 The Holy Spirit made him an astute theologian.
Stay away from calvinism.
Stay away from fanaticism of men.
Follow Jesus, become a Christian.
One of GOD'S MEN.... BROTHER JAMES 🙏
I LOVE THE "AM I WRONG" SONG!!! I wonder who sings it?
What is it a parody of it sounds familiar
@@jgvtc559 it’s a parody of Nico and Vinz Am I wrong.
Leighton sings it
@@andrewadler4576 Really?
You might like this song as well.
"Calvi-jesus Love song" for the elect!
"Jesus loves me, this I know.
As for you, I don't think so.
Only some to Him belong. We are right and you are wrong.
Yes, Jesus loves me!
Yes, Jesus loves me!
Yes, Jesus loves me!
But I hope this isn't effervescent grace that I'm walking in and instead I'm actually deceived and one of the reprobates that He created to burn as a candle for His glory in Hell forever."
TRUTH IN LOVE
The big question in election is, does the sinner choose God first or does God choose the sinner first? I believe the latter but also believe that man chooses to believe of his own free will even though these things can't be reconciled in our finite minds.
They can easily be reconciled if you truly believe what God says in His word.
If we look at the Old Covenant, we see that God "elected" Israel out of the whole earth. But this didn't mean that every Israelite became a believer. But seemingly anyone from outside Israel had to join the community of faith where access to Yahweh was available. So, we have a clear example of God initiating the choosing of a corporate group (while largely excluding the vast majority outside this elect group). And then those within the group being responsible personally for their own response of belief and obedience.
Moving forward to the New Testament, the arena in which God is working has expanded to the entire world of nations and the call is to "whoever believes." Access to God's promises is fully available. His initiative was in Christ's offering of perfect obedience. The remaining response to any and all is to believe and receive.
Interesting, Lennox used the same situation as I would, that of "choosing a marriage partner." That is, "I choose you.." no better way to illustrate God's predestination than to realize God chose me, for some reason known only to him, no merit in me, just simply God's setting his love on me before the foundation of the world!
We love Him because He first loved us..
Yeah, I believe Calvinists also do not say that we are robots, they affirm free will to a natural man. But of the nature of men we are told by Scripture that we were hostile to God - Rom 3:23, dead in sin - Col 2:13. Rom 3:10-11 is very clear on our nature - first of all no one is righteous, second of all no one seeks God.
So what of those who seek God?
John 6:44 - Everyone who comes to God is drawn by Father and will be raised up on the last day. There is only one condition, you have to be drawn by the Father, then surely you will be raised up. And yes, we chose God, but only on the basis of His choosing first.
So then does God not love those he doesn't choose? Does he damn those who he doesn't not choose? This is such a confusing topic to me, just trying to wrap my brain around it.
@@RaisingRoosters123 It is a hard topic.
Bible talks about the love of God in many ways. There is a sense in which God's love/grace is extended to everyone, take a look at Matthew 5:43-48, yet there is a love/grace that is extended only to those whom He chose to save Ephesians 2:4 and I recommend reading it from verse 1, because the context gives us insight into our condition before we were saved.
Ok, now there is another verse, that makes this a bit harder - 1.Timothy 2:3-4, which says that God desires all people to be saved. So if God choses, and He desires all people to be saved, why isnt everyone saved? I believe that our problem lies in our understanding of desire. Here is an analogy: Let's say a parent sees his children sin and he does not desire to punish them, but to teach them and fulfill righteousness he will punish his children.
There is a verse, that is hard to read, but it does apply to this topic and answers the question about God's will for salvation and judgement - Romans 9:19-24
This is how I see it, if I have misinterpreted verses I'm open to listen. Thanks for asking and hope it helps. I think lastly we should remember that the standard is judgement(for our sins), but God was graceous to save. And if our condition was unable to choose God, it is awesome that He even saved someone.
@@xuanhungdo7285 he draws ALL
@RaisingRoosters123 Call out to Jesus and see if He rejects you. He said He would Not reject you if you called out to Him. ASK HIM. ASK JESUS INTO YOUR LIFE. ASK!
He said all you need to do is ask Him.
If He elected you to choose Him or He didn't-- (why bother about that?) if you ask Him to come into your life, He will. Do it!
I love your channel and thank-you so much for it. However, I love many things about John MacArthur’s teachings mainly how he speaks unapologetically regarding the hard concepts of the Bible and applies that to the current culture. However, I do not believe in Calvinism but have struggled with it in the past and feel confident I definitely no longer believe in Calvinism. Having said that, I would love to watch a pastor online and have no idea who to watch. I have prayed about it this morning and hoping you or anyone reading this can give me suggestions. So someone like MacArthur in some of these ways I mention. I love Mike Winger and consider him my favorite Bible teacher, but would love to watch sermons too from a Godly Biblical yet humble pastor online.
I really enjoy listening to John Lennox too!
I used to listen MacArthur and believe everything he taught but after years of searching and reading the word and some other preachers and teachers I came to reject Calvinism and most of what he teaches. Steve Gregg is my go to guy for good sound biblical teaching without telling you what to think. Extremely humble and knowledgeable and covers every subject you could want to know about. Steve Gregg videos and the narrow path both have his teachings on UA-cam. And the narrow path is a website and radio program too which covers everything he teaches. I hope this helps and god bless!
Andrew Farley is very good
Pastor Kumuyi of deeperlife
Guy N Woods
Your HEART follows the choices of your mind:
Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. Matt 6:19-21
Loved this video. Praise God for such teachers!
To the Question Lennox answered at the end, I would argue that ONLY a truly all powerful God could create entities with Free Will. A God who created deterministic beings is not beyond our human ability today.
God Bless You Leighton Calvinism is wrong thank-you for showing me this
I think a lot of it has to do with “what is your definition of Calvinism?” because I don’t think enough people research what these founders wrote and what they meant….
I have studied Calvinism and also Armenian thought as well. Many people just think Calvinists teach "once saved always saved" which isn't exactly what they teach, they teach Perseverance of the Saints. Simply stated it means if you truly did get to be born again you will keep the faith and never stop believing in Christ. OK, I have no problem with the idea that you keep on believing and trusting in Christ you will stay saved. Why? Because Jesus said if you believe in Him you are saved and that is in a present tense. If you stop hoping and trusting in The Lord Jesus and walk away you will cease to be saved.
I don't believe there is a sin that causes you to lose your salvation except unbelief. But what if I am a drug addict and I keep falling? You will find it difficult to believe He will forgive you, but He will if you ask, do not listen to the devil and think you have gone too far. You can reach a point where you FEEL that way, but nowhere does the Bible say you cannot be forgiven if you repent. The issue becomes will you sin yourself into a state where you cannot repent because you do not want to and I will say that willful sinning can lead to that state, but don't worry if that has happened to you because you won't care anymore. Repent and keep on repenting and be forgiving of others and you will grow, maybe slowly and painfully, but you will.
Now the issues of Election and predestination are also taught in Scripture as is human choice, but how can both be true? How can Newtonian Physics and Relativistic physics both be true? They both are and Einstein's theories have been proven to be true and Newtonian physics landed on the Moon. They are on different levels as we are on a different level than God's level. And as Dr. Lennox said I don't know how they both work, but I am on the human level and I will take the Biblical warnings against falling away seriously and I will try to study to show myself ready to defend the Hope that is within me and maybe God will bless my conversations and somebody gets saved.
Our loving God knew before He created us that we would sin.
He also knows who will come to Him, whom He foreknew, He predestined.
Why did He still create us? Because He wanted us to know & love Him, as He knows & loves us.
God knows the sheer magnificence of Heaven & He wants us to share with Him in His glory & majesty in Heaven for all eternity.
That's why God's Son Jesus Christ came & died for us, conquering sin & death & rose again victorious.
Your salvation, for the humbly asking.
Praise the Lord !!!
Read Romans 8:7 and Romans 3:10-11. If God waited for us to ask He would wait forever. No one will ever choose to come to God apart from His sovereign election of them.
@@rainbomikie , was it God's desire that we should sin & turn against Him in the garden of Eden? Of course not, but He knew before He created us that we would do so.
Does God know who His elect will be? Of course.
Has He predestined His chosen people to be His? Absolutely.
So who God foreknew, He predestined, who He predestined, He called, justified & glorifies.
So when God calls us, we seek Him, He always initiates & we respond.
Were Adam & Eve responsible for their sinning against God in the garden, of course they were.
With all people being dead in their sins, God has to wake us up, the people who God knows will not come to Him, who are not predestined, are they responsible for their hardness of heart & their total lack of desire for Him, yes, 100% they are.
As it is written in the Bible, God does not want any to perish, but the heart of man is desperately wicked & the evil will go to Hell & perish.
@@noweternity3101 Glad to read your words here. Your first comment sounded as if you were stating that God's foreknowledge was not sovereign buy depended on God seeing who would choose Him and then choosing them.
John Lennox is very good.
Do you have any commentary recommendations that are similar to God's Word for you series or Christ Centered Exposition Commentary series that's not from a reformed influence?
The truth is little people, God does not need you for his own eternal happiness. God is Trinity, you are created out of love, yes. God's love for the human soul cannot be measured, at least not by any human methods; but, at the same time his justice and mercy are TRUTH and no one can or will escape from his Holy Justice. God will not mourn for souls lost to eternal damnation because his justice is right and holy, and all perfect and TRUTH itself. Bow before your creator each and every day, thank him for every breadth you take and thank him for dying for your eternal salvation.
God will not mourn? which "god" are you talking about??
Oh that my head were waters, and mine eyes a fountain of tears, that I
might weep day and night for the slain of the daughter of my people!
2 Oh that I had in the wilderness a lodging place of wayfaring men; that I
might leave my people, and go from them! for they be all adulterers, an
assembly of treacherous men.
3 And they bend their tongues like their bow for lies: but they are not
valiant for the truth upon the earth; for they proceed from evil to
evil, and they know not me, saith the Lord. Jeremiah 9
...that's just one of several verses backing up His offer of salvation to anyone who will come to Him in Isaiah 55 and John 5:24 ans 2 Pet 3:9 and John 3:16 and 1 Peter 1:23
D S
Ultimately God is full of a joy that cannot be diminished. Still He does prefer mercy to judgment but not at the cost of our free will.
I will quote from Spurgeon on the aspect of will supposedly free. His quote free. Will I have often heard of but I have never seen it. I have met with will, and plenty of it, But it has either been led captive by sin or held in blessed bonds of grace.
That God predestines, and that man is responsible, are two things that few can see. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory; but they are not. It is just the fault of our weak judgment. Two truths cannot be contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one place that everything is fore-ordained, that is true, and if I find in another place that man is responsible for his actions, that is true; and it is my folly that leads me to imagine that two truths can ever contradict each other. These two truths, I do not believe, can ever be welded into one upon any human anvil, but one they shall be in eternity: they are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the mind that shall pursue them farthest, will never discover that they converge; but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring… You ask me to reconcile the two. I answer, they do not want any reconcilement; I never tried to reconcile them to myself, because I could never see a discrepancy… Both are true; no two truths can be inconsistent with each other; and what you have to do is believe them both. [Charles Spurgeon] August 1, 1858 Charles Spurgeon
Perhaps this will be a benefit for you. Calvinists twist the word Predestination as a proof that God doesn't want to save you!
Predestination example 1: Its kind of like this.
A man’s wife is finally pregnant and the couple are over joyed. I hope it is a boy the man said and I hope he will be interested in becoming an electrician like me. I also hope he goes into the trade and if he does, I plan for him to take over the family business some day! But I know that these plans that I have made for him, before one of his days of life begin will be entirely up to my son. I cannot force him, I cannot put a gun to his head, I can only encourage and guide him and hope. In other word’s the man has predestined a plan for his son, He has chosen a plan for his son. He has elected to give all this to his son if he so desires it!
Outcome 1 The baby is born and it is a boy. He is interested in his fathers work and goes to electrical trade school, but drops out and becomes a lawyer instead.
Outcome 2 He drops out of school becomes a bum, a drunk or a murderer etc.
Outcome 3 The son follows his fathers predestinated plan, through trade school and takes over his father’s business. The fathers predestined plans for his son will happen, or will not happen, according to the choices the son makes. Its the same with mankind.
There is a master plan given to every human being to know God, reach salvation and eternity in Heaven. But to follow or reject the plan is the choice given to every individual.
This is the "Good News Gospel" that the Angels proclaimed when the Messiah was born.
Satan has attacked that message from the beginning, twisting it into what is now known as Calvinism or the doctrine of election.
Predestination example 2:
Grandma saves and saves to buy her granddaughter a plane ticket to France. She has been saving for many years and the day finally arrived and she gave her granddaughter her special gift.
The granddaughter goes to the airport and asks the attendant which plane to get on. The attendant says, what is your destination on your ticket? He reads the ticket which says “Destination France.” He also said that flight 446 is a modern jet that was especially built and destined by the airline to fly exclusively to France for its entire service life. So, this aircraft has been predestined to fly to a predestined location, France.
The girl gets on the plane and is now destined to travel to France on the predestined plane, that has been predestined by its designers, to reach its predestined, destination!
This girl will arrive at her predestined trip that her grandmother predestined years before, as long as she goes to the airport, gets on the right plane and stays on the plane! All this took place by the choices the granddaughter made.
Predestination example 3: "The man on an island."
Imagine a man has been taken to a desolate island with everything he needs to survive and given only a Bible to occupy his time. This man has no preconceived idea about religion so everything he will learn over the next 10 years he will get directly from the Bible and Gods leading. The man accepts God’s plan of salvation and what he has learned from the Bible. He repents and is born again. The Holy Spirit is now counselling the man from the inside. He studies intensely for the 10 years growing in his faith and walking closer and closer with God daily.
After 10 years he comes back to the mainland world and decides he needs to fellowship with other Christians as the Bible says he should. The man approaches a number of different churches and looks through the windows from the outside and says to himself “What are they doing in there what are they saying about God?
How do you think this man will compare what he knows to be true, from what he sees going on in the mainline churches today?
Do you think he will find what the mainline denominations are teaching will be in harmony to what this true follower of Jesus Christ has learned?
You know it won’t be!
It then occurred to me that I am that man. I became a Christian in the winter of 1980 and didn’t go to any church for 10 years.
I studied on my own directly from the Bible.
I did go to some Bible studies, but basically learned directly by Gods leading.
Calvinism is a Doctrine of Demons and apposed to Christianity in every way.
TRUTH IN LOVE
Check out Dr Flowers Soteriology 101 David Pawson and Dave Hunt What love is this
I don't identify with any religious sect of Christianity, but I am a child of Christ and familiar with Calvinism.
Hopefully, this will help people. And, I will keep the context of Lennox intact, without trying to change it to fit with an anti-Calvinism agenda.
First off, Lennox's comments are based on CS Lewis and Dawkins, not scripture.
Here is Lennox's context and the presuppositions he made with regard to free will:
FREE WILL = 5:30 in video.
"God took a risk creating the universe and giving man free will". That's a generalisation without scriptural specificity.
The presuppositions he made are:
"In order to make beings with the capacity to love, they must have the capacity to hate".
"If you have the capacity to say yes, you must also have capacity to say no".
"Your partner chooses you".
[Christ also chooses you, so that's a pointless presupposition].
Therefore based on these presuppositions, "God took a risk creating the universe by giving man free will". [That is the context of Lennox].
[The risk with apologetics is that they try to intellectualise scripture, rather than doing an exegesis and exposition of scripture. The issue with this approach, is that they humanise God and deify man. Very dangerous].
JUSTICE 5:53 video.
This commentary of Lennox is based on Dawkins not scripture.
Lennox contends; "If atheism is true then the vast majority of people will never get justice". [This is not true, because their actions have consequences. That's justice. Forgiveness does not remove consequences].
Lennox says; "We crave for justice and morality, and therefore there must be justice somewhere otherwise justice is an illusion and it mocks us". [There is both heavenly and earthly consequences. Even an atheist gets earthly consequences for bad deeds and they understand that. God uses the world for His righteous wrath and punishment].
Hitler avoided responsibility by shooting himself. No justice. [Depends on what you define as being "justice", who determines the penalty and who metes out the punishment. If Hitler got the death sentence for his heinous acts that would be the worst worldly justice. So it makes no difference if Hitler takes his own life or if man takes his life. The penalty for killing millions will never be enough, but eternal hell would be justice].
So far, Lennox is nowhere close to refuting Calvinism, so the commentator tries to make that link by taking Lennox's comments and presuppositions out of context.
DID GOD MAKE ANY PROVISION.
7:45 in video.
Lennox asks the question; "Did God make any provision if anything went wrong?" [Asked in the context of "the risk of creating the universe and free will", not in the context of the commentator's "provision of all things"].
The commentator now changes the context that Lennox had defined by saying; "free will points us to Christ". [Well no: "Free will" does not point us to Christ as this video commentator said. Jesus's "crucifixion" points us to Christ. "Sin" points us to Christ. The whole point of the crucifixion was that Jesus died for our "sins", not for "our provision". Christ died to "make us right with God and for the forgiveness of sin", not for provisions].
So, still no linkages by Lennox to Calvinism. Not even in principle.
So far, I agree that God did give us free will and God understood the risks with that, which is why in the scriptures God made it crystal clear that salvation was the exception. This is consistent across many scriptures and also confirmed without any ambiguity in the predestination scriptures.
Salvation is both a process and an event and salvation is "by grace and not by works lest you should boast" according to scripture. The Bible makes it very clear that "we are saved by GRACE through faith" and NOT by works. "Free choice" is "works" by a human, "grace" is from God.
The scripture is also very clear that "God chooses us". We do not choose Him. [Ephesians 1:4-5, Genesis 12:1-3, Deuteronomy 7:6-8 and 14:2, John 15:16].
So, free choice only operates OUTSIDE of salvation.
In terms of "provisionalism", the commentator has swiftly and deceitfully changed Lennox's context of provision, which was; "Did God provide for the risk in creating the universe where people have choice/free will?". The answer is an unequivocal YES. God did make provision for that. He excluded "free will" from salvation.
God's provision is GRACE and the scripture makes it clear that God provides SUFFICIENT grace for us as individuals. Nothing to do with the commentator's clear animus towards Calvinism.
From what I have read about Calvinism, they strongly believe that salvation is by grace and grace alone, which is very much consistent with scripture.
The fact that this commentator has diminished scripture to a juvenile story about choosing a puppy is revealing in itself.
What this commentator does throughout, as does Lennox, is to humanise God and deify man. Very dangerous, especially when scriptures have been dispensed with.
I did not choose God. He chose me through the provision of His grace. Without His grace I would not have faith or believe in Him. Without His grace I would not repent, ask for forgiveness or endure to the end.
Buddha never called me. Mohammed never called me. Hindu gods never called me. Jesus Christ called me. The scriptures say that Jesus CALLS us, and those He CALLS, he justifies, and those He justifies He sanctifies and glorifies.
When Jesus CALLS that is Christ's choice, not mine.
I submitted to God's calling through the Holy Spirit and collapsed to my knees, not by choice, but by the power of the Holy Spirit. I was powerless to choose. "Submission is not free will". When you submit in a fight, that is not "free will". You have no choice. It is a power greater than yourself forcing you into submission. And in salvation, that force is the Holy Spirit. It is the most beautifully crushing experience.
In summary, God does give us free will, but only OUTSIDE of salvation. The scriptures are crystal clear on that.
It is time for people in the 21st century to stop following the erroneous teachings of past heretics and
read their Bibles as the Word of God (not Calvin or Luther or Knox), repent and believe the good news be baptised in water and the Holy Spirit and then put themselves to work in the tasks they were created to perform - and that will not be to harass, criticise and condemn other people.
The saved are saved FROM something, BY something, FOR something. It is re-birth. Birth is usually followed by living a life.
Mature Christians get past the being saved entrance way and move on to led by the Spirit into whatever their gifts fit them for in the wide, wide world of the Kingdom of God.
Should 21st century Christians spend time affirming the correct doctrines of our forebearers throughout history? If so, then we're doing what you say we shouldnt.
And if we don't spend time affirming correct doctrines in history, then we end up with every man reinventing the wheel. ...and nobody has time for that.
Hm
I’d love to know the links to the original videos.
what makes the "robot wife" less than real is not that she's predetermined. the problem is that she isn't conscious--she's not actively experiencing anything, she's just circuits and wires. therefore, there can be no shared experiences with her.
It is a real robot and a counterfeit wife. The robot has no free will and that is the only part of the robot wife analogy Lennox was using it for. You have actually no idea whether the robot was "having experiences" or "conscious", you are just guessing.
Might I remind you that the issue with humans and animals is actually "self consciousness" and you will not find an answer to consciousness in robots, animals or humans in the Bible.
Do you really think you are smarter than John Lennox? I would be interested to see your CV to match with his.
William Oarlock you didnt meet socialist women yet.. they are even more robot
Socialists, period, seem to be robots. Thank God Christ doesn't impede our free will.
Bro. Flowers. Appreciate the video. A Thought: If God's Sovereignty is absolute, that is nothing can operate outside the complete control of God due to God's nature, then is that really sovereignty? Does that not even relegate God to perform like a robot? Sovereignty is the ability to control all things, yet with the ability to decide to control or not in the affairs of His creation.
Great message.
What Dr. Lennox said about free will makes sense, where you say we must be able to choose either for or against God or else it is not a free choice, and God, like us, wants followers who freely choose Him.
On the other hand though, there is the scripture that talks about God loving Jacob but hating Esau, before they were born. Before they were born God had evidently determined to save Jacob but not Esau, right? Does that not then close the door on free will? If we assume that God's attitude towards Jacob and Esau represents how He treats every other human being, then how can we believe in free will? How can it not all be determined by God?
Does anyone know where i can find that version of the intro song?
These Calvinists like John Piper how does he know that he is the chosen one? What makes him think he out of all the people in the world he's been picked to be one of the chosen? I often wonder.
You could wonder but John Piper knows God chose him - John 10:28-30; 17:6-25 (how can the prayer of Jesus fail for the salvation of His disciples and believers?); Romans 8: 31-38.
Adam doubled down on freewill and everyone got that nature
I read his book determined to believe? It's amazing book. My all doubts are clear now.
Calvinism is a real confution mess.
Just don't think about it to deeply. Just like any other cult. Just swallow the Kool aide and everything will be OK.
I found the analogy that Prof. Lennox gives of us choosing to have children very compelling. We know that there is a chance our children may turn against us but we find it worth the risk.
And just think, a Calvinist can with a clear conscience sing this Calvinistic accurate song to their children.
How sick is that?
The Calvinist children's hymn:
"Jesus loves me, this I know.
As for you, I don't think so.
Only some to Him belong. We are right and you are wrong.
Yes, Jesus loves me!
Yes, Jesus loves me!
Yes, Jesus loves me!
But
I hope this isn't effervescent grace that I'm walking in and instead
I'm actually deceived and one of the reprobates that He created to burn
as a candle for His glory in Hell forever."
TRUTH IN LOVE
Exactly what I was thinking. How do they teach their children that God loves them? That would be lying.
@@cynthiasnyder1561 Muslims are taught that lying is ok to further the movement Calvinism do the same, under the guise of simply twisting scripture to say the opposite of what it clearly says. When cornered they reach for the "It's a Mystery Card!" or 'You just don't understand Calvinism!" I do... it's a hideous Cult!
God disciplines His Children. Only His Children have The Holy Spirit within them to have that happen.
Its simple "No child of God can accept Calvinism, or even a tiniest part of this slander against God, as the Holy Spirit will not allow them to believe it." A house CANNOT be divided against it's self! No man can serve two masters!
That is why Calvinism works, "THEY ARE UNWILLING"! "THEY WOULD RATHER FOLLOW THE LIE THAN THE SAVIOUR"!
Truth in Love
Acts 5:39
“But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.”
When Lennox says "God took a risk when He created the universe", it's not the same as a man and woman taking a risk to have children. Complete conflation and category error. God doesn't need us or anything else for His existence, so if things don't work out (which isn't possible because it implies something can happen that God couldn't foresee or know), it's not like God can lose anything. He created all things according to His eternal plan (Ephesians 1). Saying He "took a risk" implies He didn't know what was going to happen.
All this only makes sense if you are an open theist, but I'm assuming Mr. Lennox wouldn't say he is.
Daric i don't think that it was God taking a risk as in taking a gamble in hopes that he might win but more like God did it knowing that he would win some and lose some. The only way to gain the true love of any would be to offer his love to all and allow them the ability to accept and return it to him freely.
L Morter ya that's true. That makes sense. But I just wouldn't use the word "risk". Risk implies fear or something that you will do with an unknown outcome; fear of the unknown. And i know I sound like a word Nazi but words and what we teach to the world matters because the way we speak usually portrays the way we think, especially about God. I know ppl make mistakes and they sometimes say what they don't mean or mean what they don't say. Trust me, I've done that many times
Daric - a "risk" is an exposure to danger, harm, or loss. God does not lose or gain anything in his nature nor His glory, ever. However, God would, could, and has lost his creatures. The Fall, broken world, "lost" sinner's have all come about because he risked creation (exposed it to harm) by allowing for free will. He took a risk on creation. You don't need to be an open theist to state this; God can have perfect knowledge of all that will happen in his creation while still exposing it to harm/loss. There is no logical connection between God risking and God not knowing.
Leighton Flowers
"The Point Lennox was illustrating had to do with why one might choose to create a free creation versus a determined one."
I understand how analogies work. But something in the analogy has to be similar to what you're comparing it to, otherwise the analogy doesn't hold. Saying "God took a risk" in creating us means one or several of the following should hold true:
1) God didn't know what was going to happen (i.e. He is not omniscient)
2) God had "something to lose" (i.e. God is dependent on His creation for His existence, happiness, glory, etc.)
3) God might lose some of His creation to hell (refer back to point 1, where He might lose them but is not entirely sure)
All of these are false views of God. God didn't "risk" anything at creation. He knew how many would be saved and how many would be damned to hell for rebellion, otherwise He would not be omniscient (all-knowing). Everything that happens is all according to His sovereign plan to the praise of His glory, Ephesians 1.
Your explanation for Lennox's statement presupposes that God wouldn't know our actions at creation, i.e. a God without omniscience throughout time and space. You're saying God chose to make a "free creation", assuming you mean one where God doesn't force us to act in a certain way, versus a "determined creation", where you assume God forces us to act a certain way.
Do you feel like God forces you to do anything? I certainly don't. And yet I'm a Calvinist. Why? Because if you imply that God made a "free creation" that He is somehow unaware of what we would do at any point in time or space. This is the open theist view of God, where He is "learning things" as time goes along. This is an antibiblical view of God.
You can't get around the idea that God is omniscient, and thus, knew which of His creation would go to hell and which would be redeemed. From our perspective, we choose God, but we really can't choose God until He regenerates us, changes our natures, gives us a heart of flesh. We are usually unaware of when this happens, but Scripture plainly teaches us we cannot come to Christ until the Father draws us, and those whom the Father draws will be lifted up to eternal life according to John 6.
You are fighting against open theism, which is a theology not being addressed or taught here, tho I know we push against it as well. But your assumptions still have no connection. God does not lose anything in himself, neither in nature or in glory, when his creation is lost. You seem to be assuming that God's creation is necessarily connected to his existence, which is simply an equivocation of necessary and contingent beings (even tho you rightly said earlier that God does not depend on us for his existence). If something is lost in creation (i.e. humans), nothing is lost in God, because they are separate beings. So God can take a risk (the exposure/ability of loss) in humans without risking himself.
Your view of God's omniscience does not account for free will, because you do not believe in libertarian free will, which seems to entail that He is a lesser God; this is because it deals only with what he determines to happen. This is a narrow explanation. Omniscience means that God knows any and all propositions and their truth value; this must include knowledge of everything that is necessarily true (2+2=4, every thing that has a shape has a size...), knowledge of everything that will be true dependent upon his choice to create - things that could have been otherwise had he created a different world, and knowledge of what every possible person would freely do in any and all circumstances. This God is greater because His knowledge encompasses more than what he makes happen to include what he knows we would do separate from him.
Because humans are separate from God (creation vs. Creator), we have a different consciousness as well as a different will. All of which God has knowledge of, for he knows our every thought. However, knowledge of something does not entail determining it. Your God would have to meld his consciousness into humanity's, and his will into humanity's, in order for us to do only as he wishes. This literally makes God's consciousness --> man's consciousness, God's will --> man's will. That is unbiblical, to say the least; blasphemous to say the worst. It is only tenable to say that man has a separate will, and that will has to choose for itself either to submit to or rebel against God.
---------------------------------------
Problem with your premises:
1) God DID know what was going to happen when Jesus came to earth, yet he exposed His son to harm (risk).
2) God the Son gave up his life on the cross (risk: exposed himself to harm and loss)
3) God DOES lose some of His creation to hell (risk: exposed them to
harm and loss)
Since your first premise (If he risks, he is not omniscient) is shown to be flawed, and the crux of your entire following argument is that risk implies lack of omniscience, it follows that your understanding of omnipotence is flawed.
God knew what was going to happen, God acted on that knowledge, and because of the responses of men many are lost to hell. Jesus proves you wrong.
If you are dead in your sins as Eph 2 says, then who ignites your dead heart? Who opens your eyes to see your sinfulness and God’s holiness?! Who gives you ability to make a choice?!
Mr Flowers you miss characterize the, "and I hate this term" Calvinist position of "freewill' and then proceed to dismantle it, falsely I might add.
Jon Pool
No explanation? I suppose the "elect" have "effectual grace" to understand without reason or scripture.
Free will is the ability to choose without external restraint. Man in sin has this, only he will never choose the things of God. Rather, he will choose according to the desires of his heart. Free will is the heart choosing. To exercise faith in Christ one needs to have a new heart.
Amen Jake.
uhg... people choose to do right every single day... unsaved people even...i know, shocker
Traveling Berean Romans 8:7 tells us the unsaved man is unable to come to God. Jesus is very clear in John 6:44 and 6:65 that God must draw them. You do not have an issue with God's election. Your issue is with man's depravity after the fall. You seem to think that dead sinners can actually make a choice to come to God. In Romans 3 God's word tells us that "No one understands. No one seeks after God " That means that no one will ever make a choice for God. We can be grateful that God has made the choice for even one.
@@rainbomikie Hello again brother, I understand calvinism, I have studied all 5 points of calvinism to see if it was true and I found it to be false...when quoting scriptures in support of calvinism, calvinists fail to look at the complete context, the audience he was specifically speaking to, and the language and wording used. Besides not lining up with scripture i also found it to be false logically and practically...and lastly I found that calvinism cannot answer certain questions regarding Adam and Eve and the fall of man...i bible indeed teaches predestination but not that we were predestined to be saved but that we who are saved are predestined to be made into the image of Christ...is there any way you can send me a private message and perhaps we can talk over the phone and do a Bible study together
Isaiah 1:18 KJV - Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Where can I get the buffer songs you play?
I also want to know lol
Bumper
I like John Lennox but man, hearing him say that God took a risk when he created us...that hurt. Come on John. You should know better.
People like this do not know any better.
People like what?
What are you children talking about? He is correct.
Why is it not a risk? He created humans with the ability to reject him and sin yes? Otherwise God made humans sin which would destroy his holiness.
Perhaps it would be more precise to say he paid a price, but you should get the idea.
Question? After Adam sinned how did he use his free will? Did he immediately reach out to God or hide from God? Also, after Adam sinned did God take the initiative in coming to Adam, or did Adam begin seeking God? Does the answers to these questions indicate man’s free will is inclined towards God or away from God?
They indicate you need new questions. The answers to all your questions are "both". You'd better believe Adam -- in his brokenness -- after God clothed him sought after God and was likely the most remorseful man whom ever lived.
Very well put!
Perhaps this will be a benefit for you. Calvinists twist the word Predestination as a proof that God doesn't want to save you!
Predestination example 1: Its kind of like this.
A man’s wife is finally pregnant and the couple are over joyed. I hope it is a boy the man said and I hope he will be interested in becoming an electrician like me. I also hope he goes into the trade and if he does, I plan for him to take over the family business some day! But I know that these plans that I have made for him, before one of his days of life begin will be entirely up to my son. I cannot force him, I cannot put a gun to his head, I can only encourage and guide him and hope. In other word’s the man has predestined a plan for his son, He has chosen a plan for his son. He has elected to give all this to his son if he so desires it!
Outcome 1 The baby is born and it is a boy. He is interested in his fathers work and goes to electrical trade school, but drops out and becomes a lawyer instead.
Outcome 2 He drops out of school becomes a bum, a drunk or a murderer etc.
Outcome 3 The son follows his fathers predestinated plan, through trade school and takes over his father’s business. The fathers predestined plans for his son will happen, or will not happen, according to the choices the son makes. Its the same with mankind.
There is a master plan given to every human being to know God, reach salvation and eternity in Heaven. But to follow or reject the plan is the choice given to every individual.
This is the "Good News Gospel" that the Angels proclaimed when the Messiah was born.
Satan has attacked that message from the beginning, twisting it into what is now known as Calvinism or the doctrine of election.
Predestination example 2:
Grandma saves and saves to buy her granddaughter a plane ticket to France. She has been saving for many years and the day finally arrived and she gave her granddaughter her special gift.
The granddaughter goes to the airport and asks the attendant which plane to get on. The attendant says, what is your destination on your ticket? He reads the ticket which says “Destination France.” He also said that flight 446 is a modern jet that was especially built and destined by the airline to fly exclusively to France for its entire service life. So, this aircraft has been predestined to fly to a predestined location, France.
The girl gets on the plane and is now destined to travel to France on the predestined plane, that has been predestined by its designers, to reach its predestined, destination!
This girl will arrive at her predestined trip that her grandmother predestined years before, as long as she goes to the airport, gets on the right plane and stays on the plane! All this took place by the choices the granddaughter made.
Predestination example 3: "The man on an island."
Imagine a man has been taken to a desolate island with everything he needs to survive and given only a Bible to occupy his time. This man has no preconceived idea about religion so everything he will learn over the next 10 years he will get directly from the Bible and Gods leading. The man accepts God’s plan of salvation and what he has learned from the Bible. He repents and is born again. The Holy Spirit is now counselling the man from the inside. He studies intensely for the 10 years growing in his faith and walking closer and closer with God daily.
After 10 years he comes back to the mainland world and decides he needs to fellowship with other Christians as the Bible says he should. The man approaches a number of different churches and looks through the windows from the outside and says to himself “What are they doing in there what are they saying about God?
How do you think this man will compare what he knows to be true, from what he sees going on in the mainline churches today?
Do you think he will find what the mainline denominations are teaching will be in harmony to what this true follower of Jesus Christ has learned?
You know it won’t be!
It then occurred to me that I am that man. I became a Christian in the winter of 1980 and didn’t go to any church for 10 years.
I studied on my own directly from the Bible.
I did go to some Bible studies, but basically learned directly by Gods leading.
Calvinism is a Doctrine of Demons and apposed to Christianity in every way.
TRUTH IN LOVE
Check out Dr Flowers Soteriology 101 David Pawson and Dave Hunt What love is this
The second part of your video with Lennox doesn't refute Calvinism it actually reinforces it. Both freewill and God's sovereignty (predestination) are true. "Many are called but few are chosen". Jesus to his disciples "you did not choose me I chose you."
Marty Kimsey
How does Jesus choosing who His apostles would be, support Calvinism? They were given a very important mission. Of course He picked the right ones for the job.
Evan U , just like he chose you and I as well as every other Christian. Eph. 1:4-5 "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, ... 5 Having predestinated us into the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,". Eph. 2:8
Jesus clearly says that it would have been better for Judas if he were not even born.
jasonrecords92 - and yet Jesus chose Judas. ...for the very purpose of betraying Him.
Tim Foster
He chose him knowing what kind of man he was.....
2 Tim 2: 20 ¶ But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
Interesting to hear all this - and to listen to John Lennox. He might not be a 5 point Calvinist, but he is a brilliant apologist and a gracious and godly man. Dr Flowers dismisses J.I. Packer's idea of antinomy, but it seems to me Professor Lennox's concluding illustration (to show Jesus is God's Son) leaves open the possibility of antinomy. There are things we accept but cannot explain. We accept they have to be in order to explain how things are. God has to be Sovereign and govern the universe all powerfully. But we are not robots - we are made in God's image. That means we have free will. But God very clearly, if we treat the Bible seriously, confirms people's decisions. How do you explain things like God being spoken of as hardening Pharaoh's heart against the word through Moses, the references in Isaiah 6 to the people's hearts being hardened, or the references in Romans 1 to God giving people up to sinful choices? To hold election and free will in antinomy is the only sensible thing. J.I. Packer's 'Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God' is so helpful - it is God who regenerates by convincing of the truth of Jesus, leading to repentance and saving faith in Jesus. Far from undermining the possibility of mission and evangelism, a belief in election actually helps it.
How can us peon humans grasp the full grace of God on our own? So, you think God sits there tapping his foot waiting for us to accept Him?
Typical psuedo intellectual calvinist remark👎
Perhaps this will be a benefit for you. Calvinists twist the word Predestination as a proof that God doesn't want to save you!
Predestination example 1: Its kind of like this.
A man’s wife is finally pregnant and the couple are over joyed. I hope it is a boy the man said and I hope he will be interested in becoming an electrician like me. I also hope he goes into the trade and if he does, I plan for him to take over the family business some day! But I know that these plans that I have made for him, before one of his days of life begin will be entirely up to my son. I cannot force him, I cannot put a gun to his head, I can only encourage and guide him and hope. In other word’s the man has predestined a plan for his son, He has chosen a plan for his son. He has elected to give all this to his son if he so desires it!
Outcome 1 The baby is born and it is a boy. He is interested in his fathers work and goes to electrical trade school, but drops out and becomes a lawyer instead.
Outcome 2 He drops out of school becomes a bum, a drunk or a murderer etc.
Outcome 3 The son follows his fathers predestinated plan, through trade school and takes over his father’s business. The fathers predestined plans for his son will happen, or will not happen, according to the choices the son makes. Its the same with mankind.
There is a master plan given to every human being to know God, reach salvation and eternity in Heaven. But to follow or reject the plan is the choice given to every individual.
This is the "Good News Gospel" that the Angels proclaimed when the Messiah was born.
Satan has attacked that message from the beginning, twisting it into what is now known as Calvinism or the doctrine of election.
Predestination example 2:
Grandma saves and saves to buy her granddaughter a plane ticket to France. She has been saving for many years and the day finally arrived and she gave her granddaughter her special gift.
The granddaughter goes to the airport and asks the attendant which plane to get on. The attendant says, what is your destination on your ticket? He reads the ticket which says “Destination France.” He also said that flight 446 is a modern jet that was especially built and destined by the airline to fly exclusively to France for its entire service life. So, this aircraft has been predestined to fly to a predestined location, France.
The girl gets on the plane and is now destined to travel to France on the predestined plane, that has been predestined by its designers, to reach its predestined, destination!
This girl will arrive at her predestined trip that her grandmother predestined years before, as long as she goes to the airport, gets on the right plane and stays on the plane! All this took place by the choices the granddaughter made.
Predestination example 3: "The man on an island."
Imagine a man has been taken to a desolate island with everything he needs to survive and given only a Bible to occupy his time. This man has no preconceived idea about religion so everything he will learn over the next 10 years he will get directly from the Bible and Gods leading. The man accepts God’s plan of salvation and what he has learned from the Bible. He repents and is born again. The Holy Spirit is now counselling the man from the inside. He studies intensely for the 10 years growing in his faith and walking closer and closer with God daily.
After 10 years he comes back to the mainland world and decides he needs to fellowship with other Christians as the Bible says he should. The man approaches a number of different churches and looks through the windows from the outside and says to himself “What are they doing in there what are they saying about God?
How do you think this man will compare what he knows to be true, from what he sees going on in the mainline churches today?
Do you think he will find what the mainline denominations are teaching will be in harmony to what this true follower of Jesus Christ has learned?
You know it won’t be!
It then occurred to me that I am that man. I became a Christian in the winter of 1980 and didn’t go to any church for 10 years.
I studied on my own directly from the Bible.
I did go to some Bible studies, but basically learned directly by Gods leading.
Calvinism is a Doctrine of Demons and apposed to Christianity in every way.
TRUTH IN LOVE
Check out Dr Flowers Soteriology 101 David Pawson and Dave Hunt What love is this
I haven't seen anyone point out that God, the creator, has the ability to nudge us in the direction we should/he wants us to go. There is a whole world of nature and circumstance He controls to achieve a result. It might sound machavellian, but it is obvious. Yes, we have free will, and yes, He can put his finger on the scales. Through Moses, he told Pharoah that He had risen the Pharoah up and hardened his heart so that God would be glorified in his defeat. Pharoah had free will, but still danced to the tune of God.
However, he also rejects a literal Biblical creation. He's great with the maths stuff, but I listen whilst taking a grain of salt.
John does not reject a literal Biblical creation. In fact, he is one of the few Christian philosophers who still holds that man was a special creation from the beginning, and did not evolve and receive a soul later like evolutionary creationists argue. What John argues against is a literal interpretation of Genesis 1 and 2, that is, that the earth is 6000 years old. You should read his book "Seven Days that Divide the World" to get his perspective.
Thanks, ngugi. I like John Lennox a lot, and I've watched quite a bit of his debates and him talking about the book you mention. I don't hold too tightly to a 6000 year old earth, myself, but I do believe that "day" means a 24 hour day, for many meaningful reasons. But did you notice how John did not use any Scripture to support his views in the above video? I prefer to dive deep and meaty. ;-)
Lilac Milkshake - Lennox was making an argument from reason, common ground apologetics with an atheist. To cite an authority (the Bible) to someone who does not submit to that authority would be useless. C.S. Lewis worked in a similar way. However, I am positive that both do use scripture when it is appropriate.
Keep listening with a cautious ear :)
Austin - Ah, okay, that makes sense. I didn't know the situation (or even the context) and just assumed he was being interviewed by a Christian, for Christians. Thanks for the comment. :-)
+Lilac Milkshake
Watch a few of the videos from Reasons to Believe.
In Genesis, "day" is used to say "the time when the sun was shining" roughly 12 hours and to say 24 hours for a whole day and night as we do and to say something akin to "in my father's day" - all in the first chapter.
Why?
Try to remember that the language of the Pentateuch had only roughly 4000 words to talk about the whole world, everything in it and all the things that went on in peoples lives.
In English, we have about a million words. Why?
In 5000 years humans have become more and more able to draw fine distinctions between similar things and so a choice from many English words must be put in a translation from old Hebrew to represent one word in it.
Enormous skill and scholarship has gone into translation from old writings to modern languages - the choice of one modern word for an ancient word which stood for a lot of different things requires knowledge of the whole of both languages and the context of the word in question.
Good Bible translation is done by very clever, experienced and highly educated Christian and Jewish men and women scholars whose aim is not to change or add to the revealed Word of God in the words of men but to get the most accurate meaning possible to faithfully pass on the Good News without deleting or altering it one jot.
Very smart man, but tell me why wasn't Scripture mention to support his view. This reminds me a Ravi Zacharias, a man who had profound knowledge but didn't quote Scripture. It was all philosophical.
Man’s will is in bondage. The Holy Spirit has to set us free. It is the role of the Holy Spirit to turn our hearts and choices godwards. Without the Holy Spirit we cannot choose God. Jesus told this to Nicodemus in John 3 I believe is the chapter.
John 3 16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. [17] For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Jesus said whosoever believeth. There's nothing about the Holy Spirit dictating salvation. You are lying.
Lucas Hack read further into chapter 4 Jesus conversation with Nicodemus.
@@villarrealmarta6103 No dice, man. There's nothing about the Holy Spirit dictating salvation.
Lucas Hack you obviously have no knowledge of being born again. You don’t play a role in being born. Neither the first time nor the second. The wind blows wherever it pleases. So it is with everyone born of the spirit. John 4 verse I don’t know because I don’t have access to a bible currently.
@@villarrealmarta6103 In order to be born again the Holy Spirit must enter you through belief and acceptance of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. That makes you a new creation. The Holy Spirit does not choose you to enter you. It enters you through belief.
Great argument! I don't understand the Calvinist argument, aside from God does what He does, which we all know He can, that God would want a forced glory. Does His glory not come into focus when He creates a choice and then goes about the business of working to help His creatures choose Him? He dies for them, so there is no doubt about His glory and ALL are left with no excuse for what they have chosen. I don't buy their argument that man is responsible for his salvation in this way, since nobody, who was saved by a person throwing out a lifeline and pulling them to safety, would ever claim they saved themselves simply by holding on to the line.
Thank you brother, the Spirit has given you a extremely simple, yet infinately profound truth, ie. God will never desire a FORCED GLORY! All the saints should see this comment. Aside from this though, what are we doing debating this or even preoccupying ourselves with this? Our Master Jesus never did, and we are not to either. We are to occupy till He comes. Preaching the gospel, and building one another up in our most holy faith. Jesus says to us "FOLLOW ME." And if we do, this will not be a part of our lives as it was not with Him. Brethren have done much damage to the lost, and the saved with this. As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways are not your ways and my thoughts not yours says the Lord. The HIDDEN THINGS BELONG TO ME, BUT THE THINGS REVEALED BELONG TO US. Jesus says to us, "FOLLOW ME."
Perhaps this will be a benefit for you. Calvinists twist the word Predestination as a proof that God doesn't want to save you!
Predestination example 1: Its kind of like this.
A man’s wife is finally pregnant and the couple are over joyed. I hope it is a boy the man said and I hope he will be interested in becoming an electrician like me. I also hope he goes into the trade and if he does, I plan for him to take over the family business some day! But I know that these plans that I have made for him, before one of his days of life begin will be entirely up to my son. I cannot force him, I cannot put a gun to his head, I can only encourage and guide him and hope. In other word’s the man has predestined a plan for his son, He has chosen a plan for his son. He has elected to give all this to his son if he so desires it!
Outcome 1 The baby is born and it is a boy. He is interested in his fathers work and goes to electrical trade school, but drops out and becomes a lawyer instead.
Outcome 2 He drops out of school becomes a bum, a drunk or a murderer etc.
Outcome 3 The son follows his fathers predestinated plan, through trade school and takes over his father’s business. The fathers predestined plans for his son will happen, or will not happen, according to the choices the son makes. Its the same with mankind.
There is a master plan given to every human being to know God, reach salvation and eternity in Heaven. But to follow or reject the plan is the choice given to every individual.
This is the "Good News Gospel" that the Angels proclaimed when the Messiah was born.
Satan has attacked that message from the beginning, twisting it into what is now known as Calvinism or the doctrine of election.
Predestination example 2:
Grandma saves and saves to buy her granddaughter a plane ticket to France. She has been saving for many years and the day finally arrived and she gave her granddaughter her special gift.
The granddaughter goes to the airport and asks the attendant which plane to get on. The attendant says, what is your destination on your ticket? He reads the ticket which says “Destination France.” He also said that flight 446 is a modern jet that was especially built and destined by the airline to fly exclusively to France for its entire service life. So, this aircraft has been predestined to fly to a predestined location, France.
The girl gets on the plane and is now destined to travel to France on the predestined plane, that has been predestined by its designers, to reach its predestined, destination!
This girl will arrive at her predestined trip that her grandmother predestined years before, as long as she goes to the airport, gets on the right plane and stays on the plane! All this took place by the choices the granddaughter made.
Predestination example 3: "The man on an island."
Imagine a man has been taken to a desolate island with everything he needs to survive and given only a Bible to occupy his time. This man has no preconceived idea about religion so everything he will learn over the next 10 years he will get directly from the Bible and Gods leading. The man accepts God’s plan of salvation and what he has learned from the Bible. He repents and is born again. The Holy Spirit is now counselling the man from the inside. He studies intensely for the 10 years growing in his faith and walking closer and closer with God daily.
After 10 years he comes back to the mainland world and decides he needs to fellowship with other Christians as the Bible says he should. The man approaches a number of different churches and looks through the windows from the outside and says to himself “What are they doing in there what are they saying about God?
How do you think this man will compare what he knows to be true, from what he sees going on in the mainline churches today?
Do you think he will find what the mainline denominations are teaching will be in harmony to what this true follower of Jesus Christ has learned?
You know it won’t be!
It then occurred to me that I am that man. I became a Christian in the winter of 1980 and didn’t go to any church for 10 years.
I studied on my own directly from the Bible.
I did go to some Bible studies, but basically learned directly by Gods leading.
Calvinism is a Doctrine of Demons and apposed to Christianity in every way.
TRUTH IN LOVE
Check out Dr Flowers Soteriology 101 David Pawson and Dave Hunt What love is this
@@truth7416 I can dig it....Blessings to you!
Now ask him why he rejects Genesis as history.
He doesn't discount Genesis as history, he affirms the creation narrative of God creating the universe and all that is in it and apart from him nothing was made that is made. Lennox simply does not think that it is necessary* to hold to a literal six 24 hours of creation. And frankly, it isn't necessary. People believed the world was flat, and used the Bible to support that view, until we learned otherwise and found verses that would indicate a spherical earth. When interpreting scripture, we have to be able to understand what the author was trying to say and how he was trying to say it. If it is literal, symbolic, hyperbolic, past, present, or future, etc. When it comes to creation there are several ways to understand what is being said that do no harm to the power and trustworthiness of God.
He doesn't. Are you lying or just are you misinformed?
I like JL.
Where in this video does he refer to provisionism?
I can't find it.
Again the same misunderstanding of Calvinism I saw numerous times. Please accept that we Calvinists do believe that human beings have freedom of will. The will is not the issue. The heart is! Corrupt human heart will never, ever choose submission to God... unless God would miraculously regenerate it. So sinner's free will will pursue inclination of his corrupt heart to hate true God.
Stanislaw: AMEN!
Greg: Neither Leighton Flowers or John Lennox can comprehend your words. Like many I was once an inconsistent arminian. I thank God that He has reformed me and brought me to a true understanding of just who He is. He alone chooses those He will save from the lump of sin we are all a part of. Arminians believe He is obligated to 'try' to save all. In His grace He has chosen to save some. What mercy He has shown to hell deserving God hating rebels.
@ S. Nathan What a great testimony you shared, thank you! My observation is that some brilliant minds have problem with submission of their great intellects to the authority of God's Word. Professor John Lennox not only tries to bypass solid truths of the Bible like devastating results of the Fall, God's election and predestination of His children but also believes in old Earth contrary to what the Word of God says.
people choose to do right every single day
Perhaps this will be a benefit for you. Calvinists twist the word Predestination as a proof that God doesn't want to save you!
Predestination example 1: Its kind of like this.
A man’s wife is finally pregnant and the couple are over joyed. I hope it is a boy the man said and I hope he will be interested in becoming an electrician like me. I also hope he goes into the trade and if he does, I plan for him to take over the family business some day! But I know that these plans that I have made for him, before one of his days of life begin will be entirely up to my son. I cannot force him, I cannot put a gun to his head, I can only encourage and guide him and hope. In other word’s the man has predestined a plan for his son, He has chosen a plan for his son. He has elected to give all this to his son if he so desires it!
Outcome 1 The baby is born and it is a boy. He is interested in his fathers work and goes to electrical trade school, but drops out and becomes a lawyer instead.
Outcome 2 He drops out of school becomes a bum, a drunk or a murderer etc.
Outcome 3 The son follows his fathers predestinated plan, through trade school and takes over his father’s business. The fathers predestined plans for his son will happen, or will not happen, according to the choices the son makes. Its the same with mankind.
There is a master plan given to every human being to know God, reach salvation and eternity in Heaven. But to follow or reject the plan is the choice given to every individual.
This is the "Good News Gospel" that the Angels proclaimed when the Messiah was born.
Satan has attacked that message from the beginning, twisting it into what is now known as Calvinism or the doctrine of election.
Predestination example 2:
Grandma saves and saves to buy her granddaughter a plane ticket to France. She has been saving for many years and the day finally arrived and she gave her granddaughter her special gift.
The granddaughter goes to the airport and asks the attendant which plane to get on. The attendant says, what is your destination on your ticket? He reads the ticket which says “Destination France.” He also said that flight 446 is a modern jet that was especially built and destined by the airline to fly exclusively to France for its entire service life. So, this aircraft has been predestined to fly to a predestined location, France.
The girl gets on the plane and is now destined to travel to France on the predestined plane, that has been predestined by its designers, to reach its predestined, destination!
This girl will arrive at her predestined trip that her grandmother predestined years before, as long as she goes to the airport, gets on the right plane and stays on the plane! All this took place by the choices the granddaughter made.
Predestination example 3: "The man on an island."
Imagine a man has been taken to a desolate island with everything he needs to survive and given only a Bible to occupy his time. This man has no preconceived idea about religion so everything he will learn over the next 10 years he will get directly from the Bible and Gods leading. The man accepts God’s plan of salvation and what he has learned from the Bible. He repents and is born again. The Holy Spirit is now counselling the man from the inside. He studies intensely for the 10 years growing in his faith and walking closer and closer with God daily.
After 10 years he comes back to the mainland world and decides he needs to fellowship with other Christians as the Bible says he should. The man approaches a number of different churches and looks through the windows from the outside and says to himself “What are they doing in there what are they saying about God?
How do you think this man will compare what he knows to be true, from what he sees going on in the mainline churches today?
Do you think he will find what the mainline denominations are teaching will be in harmony to what this true follower of Jesus Christ has learned?
You know it won’t be!
It then occurred to me that I am that man. I became a Christian in the winter of 1980 and didn’t go to any church for 10 years.
I studied on my own directly from the Bible.
I did go to some Bible studies, but basically learned directly by Gods leading.
Calvinism is a Doctrine of Demons and apposed to Christianity in every way.
TRUTH IN LOVE
Check out Dr Flowers Soteriology 101 David Pawson and Dave Hunt What love is this
Both can be true!! In Hugh Ross' book, Beyond the Cosmos, he points out that a transcendent Being outside of space and time (God) exists in geometric, rather than linear time (which cannot be stopped or reversed). Therefore, paradoxes like Jesus being both God and man simultaneously, the Trinity, and Sovereignty vs. free will can actually be resolved. We can't think in more than our 3 dimensions of space and 1 dimension of time, but in the book he shows ways that you can attempt to visualize it.
Leighton, using John Lennox's videos to say he doesn't believe in Calvinism is misleading. All we can infer from what Lennox stated is that he believes in God's sovereignty AND man's free will, but he also admits he doesn't know how this can be. As someone who has a reformed view, I believe that too. It's abundantly clear in scripture that God is sovereign in salvation AND man must still choose to respond to God's call to believe. It's not either/or but both/and.
Why, oh why do you insist on saying that Calvinists ascribe to a type of determinism? Maybe some do, but I know of some fine Biblical reformed scholars that don't believe that. One of these was C.H. Spurgeon, the prince of preachers. We accept the mystery (just as Lennox inferred) that man's free will isn't violated by God's sovereignty even though we don't know how. We can accept both because scripture affirms both.
Darrell you aren't reformed as it is defined by the likes of James white ect. If you believe we play any part in the process then you are a traditionalist similar to flowers who affirms God's sovereignty but appeals to mystery as to how they can both be reconciled. A reformed person on the other hand appeals to mystery when presented with the natural charge that if god extensively ordains everything then how is he not the author of evil.
Tell me, is there a difference between a will vs free-will?
What makes a will free?
And free from what?
If we have free-will why do we keep on sinning?
A God that predestines people to hell. Who can believe in such a God. Such a God like that would be a devil. That is exactly what it comes down to in the end too, no matter how Calvinists try to run away from it. The non-elect have no chance at salvation. None. So I ask you, what is the purpose in creating such people. Better that someone had never been borned.
Cyric, the non-elect are exactly like the elect. Up until that moment of salvation even the elect are also rebels and haters of God. The fact that God chooses even one hell-deserving sinner is incredibly merciful and gracious. You cannot comprehend the fact that people are wretched and evil and apart from the grace of God would run as fast as they can to get into hell so as to be separated from the God they hate. Why can you not see this Cyric?
Cyric London - technically, the non-elect do have a chance: yet they choose to reject Him anyways.
But I get your point.
Let me fine-tune your concern if I may: is it possible that God has some other objective that is more important than the salvation of all men everywhere? Is it possible that this objective is so construed that the damnation of souls is the best way to bring it about?
If Calvinism is correct, then there are real answers to those questions, and they should be (will be?) found in Scriptures.
1) The notion that God is incredibly merciful and gracious in saving even one rebel is a non-sequitor. Cleary, God could be more gracious in saving just one more. Even more gracious if He saved 2 more. Hence, God could always be MORE merciful and since He clearly CAN save more people that just the elect, God is limiting His mercy and grace by His own choice and allowing men who He created to fulfill their desires. They do run headlong into hell and they do so because God allows it. Hence, God is not as benevolent as He could be and therefore is not omnibenevolent. Therefore, He cannot be God...unless the reformed posiition isn't true.
2) Does God have some other objective? Perhaps. The notion I'm getting (correct me if I'm wrong) is that God is after His own glory because He loves Himself first. However there are problems with this. First, the assumption that God won't get get glory if we don't have people in hell to suffer His wrath is an affront to the cross. It says that in some sense the cross was not sufficient to totally display the wrath of God against sin. Therefore, some need to burn in order to make that visage complete and therefore glorify Him by putting His wrath against evil on display. The cross of Christ was either enough to show God's wrath against wickedness or it wasn't. If it was, there is no need for anyone to spend eternity in hell. Secondly, the presumption is that God's glory and man's salvation are in some sense at odds. What if God saving, renewing, and glorifying wretched sinners like us IS the way He glorifies Himself? What if man's redemption glorifies God? Some may ask...then why not simply save everyone? Jesus tells us that salvation is this, to know God and Jesus whom God sent. Doesn't it make more sense that a relationship is volitional? Doesn't it make more sense that Jesus wept over Jerusalem because He was hurt that they genuinely chose to reject Him AND embraced destruction through that decision? Do we really hear Jesus saying "Oh Jerusalem Jerusalem! How I have longed to gather you under my wings as a hen gathers her chicks, but I did not choose you"? It is also important to note that the Piper understanding of God loving Himself does not jive. Simply put, the Trinity kills the necessity of it. God does not merely love Himself selfishly. God the Father loves and adores the Son and Spirit. God, because of the Trinity, loves Himself...selflessly. I think it was Michael Horton who wrote about this in one of his articles. God's selfish love for His own glory makes saving some and damning other perfectly sensible. But that's not at all how God loves Himself.
3) Calvinism in the sneakiest way, glorifies man. Paul tells us in Romans that he is wrenched within himself. That if he could, he would cut himself off from Christ so that his brothers the Jews would be able to know Christ. Christians all over the world, in all times, have longed for people to be saved. If even ONE of those people loved a person and desired their salvation from that love, but that person was not elect, one of two things must be true if reformed thinking is to be maintained...
Either:
a) Hell and eternal damnation for that person was more loving than regeneration, salvation, and an eternity with the Triune God.
or
b) The person who loved and desired the salvation of the non-elect was in that moment more loving than God.
Hence, Calvinism leaves open the possibility that a hell is more loving than heaven (something a C.S. Lewis taught Arminian would affirm) or that man is capable of greater love than God.
What would happen if our focus was on loving Christ and loving others. Not focused on debating "who's right and who's wrong" sounds like what Paul rebuked the church in Corinth about right off the bat in the first chapter. Lord forgive us for our fleshly focusing
"God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; rule over the fish of the sea
and the birds of the air and every creature that crawls upon the earth.”
"And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and He brought them to the man to see what he would name each one. And whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name."
Looks like free will to me.
Both freewill and God's sovereignty can coexist. Martyn Lloyd-Jones taught this using the word antinomy - a contradiction between two beliefs or conclusions that are in themselves reasonable.
The question is not How does a Sovereign God exercise His love, but how does a LOVING God exercise His Sovereignty in the presence of a frail human beings.
I find it funny that whoever it was thinks that if man's Free Will can stop God's Sovereignty, then man becomes Sovereign. If man were sovereign, he would not end up in hell. At the end of a person's life, it will be God's decision where the person ends up depending upon how that person considered Yeshua. Humans can't change the consequences of their decisions. God has already DETERMINED the consequences.
Antimony is not contradiction, but appears to be contradictory.
We cannot be saved without God’s grace. At the same time, the Lord requires our moral decisions that we are responsible for.
There is election, predestination and free will to make decisions, except sin, apart from the grave of God.
The mind of God is above us. May we all be humble to His reality.
Just want to comment on Lennox saying, "Hitler kills 6 million Jews...," that people often site that number but neglect to mention the 5.5 million other categories of people murdered by Hitler, including 1.5 million Gypsies. Please don't forget them. I always say, "6 million Jews and 5.5 million other "undesirable" people.
Psalm 14:1(b) ~ "There is none who does good."
Romans 3: 10-12
"None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
According to these 1 verse and 1 passage, it says that there's no one who does good, as everyone is born into sin on this Earth. So how is it that they will have the tendency to have the freewill of choosing God when they themselves don't want to? No doubt that I am very much happy that he's standing up for the Lord in the midst of famous scientists, and of course I agree with what he says with regards to science which indeed comes from God as the Creator of the heavens and the Earth.
Maybe Norman Geisler can answer your questions in his video. Why I am not a 5-point Calvinist. It's about half hour long.
Unfortunate that this video had to be stained by mentioning Ravi Zacharias, a man who exercised his free will to sin against God, his wife, and other women. To state or even imply that God ordained such sexual sins and the resulting scandal is a disgusting and shameful blasphemy against the character and attributes of God.
I believe the vast majority of the doctrine commonly known as “tulip.”
Please have a conversation with me. I desire to know the truth and I recognize that I am not perfect in my understanding. I have been raised in a Primitive Baptist church that teaches this doctrine. Please talk to me if you believe I am being misled.
Hard Question? We are self-operating. And God puts us into circumstances where each decision of ours is, to us, genuinely random and truly a free choice. He sees beyond the entire world (olam ve od) to what we will decide. But to all OUR intents and purposes, our choices are free.