"laughs...have you ever made a game?" "What does that have to do with it?" Most likely he's referring to a technique called Wavedashing from Super Smash Brothers melee that are used by competitive players which was an exploit that's never meant to be in the game (not easy to do but it was still an exploit) -and probably the main reason why melee has a competitive base but that's just me- They made it impossible to perform in brawl and Wii u / 3DS by having the player trip *Take this post with a grain of salt, everything I've said is most likely not correct
Next Spy changes. Removed ability to cloak and disguise. Removed backstab. Removed revolver. Instead of backstab, Spy now flips a middle finger at the player.
It feels thats what they did to spy in jungle inferno update and i dont know why they had to touch the YER they nerfed it i dont like it at all anymore
I remember you having wildly different (impulsive) opinions about the Amby and the DR on Twitter the day these changes were proposed. I'm glad that in the following month, you seem to have completely changed your mind on what should be done instead of the RNG-based long-range Amby shots, as well as the DR. I agree that the Amby shouldn't be able to do 102 at long range (Spy is a close-range class, he shouldn't be viable as a pseudo-Sniper in my opinion), but Valve's change is on the right track towards making that ability more frustrating for everyone involved rather than fixing it. I'd much rather the Amby ONLY be effective at close range as a skill-based finishing move on someone who isn't able to be stabbed (currently facing you, wearing the razorback, etc.). I also agree that Spy shouldn't be able to just run around and be an annoying nuisance with bells and whistles attempting to waste everyone's time (Spy is a sneaky, espionage class, and being able to loudly and effectively cheat death over and over for little effort is not sneaky in the slightest - in fact it's the opposite). I honestly don't know if a counter-buff is necessary, but I also don't think your idea of slightly increasing the recharge time is out of the question either. And finally, I agree that the changes to the YER seem like a decision that was made based on the usage stats rather than how effective the knife actually is. In the right hands and against the right team, the YER is almost a straight upgrade with a different type of domino effect that you see in other knives like the Kunai or the Big Earner. I see nothing wrong with how it works currently and allowing people to disguise with it seems like it would only improve the effectiveness in the same situations that it's used in now (I think it would practically be a straight upgrade against teams who don't Spy-check friendly teammates). However, I can totally see what they're trying to do with the YER: they're attempting to make it the knife that favors disguising over cloaking. It's very similar to the way the L'tranger is balanced for example: it increases the ease of cloaking while decreasing the effectiveness of shooting. So basically, the while the L'tranger is the gun for Spies who would rather cloak better than shoot better, the new YER is the knife for the Spies who would rather disguise better than cloak better. And because of this, the L'tranger will be more viable when used alongside its set partner: the YER, which makes sense. So, yeah... I can see what they're trying to do with the YER changes. I just don't know if it's exactly necessary, since the knife is already pretty situationally useful. I just think it's underused because the average pub Spies are punished harder when using it. tl;dr - I A G R E E .
I don't agree. I don't believe the ambassador is problematic and it's only ever really been an issue with hackers for me. I just don't understand the mentality of nerfing the already worse class in the game and he should definitely receive at least some sort of counter buff. I don't care what it is, anything that makes him not as shit as he is and as he's going to be. In a game where random crits exist and I can die instantly to a heavy who's sitting across the map as if he's a sniper I can't see a reason as to why the Ambassador shouldn't get headshots across the map.
hey man i got your hud and the health text is HUGE how can i edit it to where its not taking up half my screen also how do i change the backround picture in the main menu
Starscream Already worse class? There are no good or bad classes, they are all just too different. It's true that having 3+ spies is worse than having 2 spies and an additional soldier, but a team of 10-12 should definetly consist of two or at very least one spy. He is soo necessary to distract the enemy team and counter heavies, snipers and just everything that your team is struggling with (including sentries). You can put him together with the sniper as the class, which supports the team by removing enemy high dps threats, so yours can push through.
Honestly if Valve want people to use the YER more, instead of the proposed change, why not take the current YER and allow spy to run at scout speed when disguised as that class? It will make the knife more appealing to many players without completely botching it. *Edited to remove medic.
Your Eternal Reward gives you the fucking ability to become someone once you stab them why the hell do you need the ability to cloak as well? and him being the weakest class isn't an excuse as he can run almost up the scout's speed
The DR nerf was completely justified and I'm actually fine with the way it is right now. The Ambassador on the other hand, really didn't deserve the harsh nerf. They should have just capped the max headshot range instead of giving it falloff (terrible one, at that).
I think that dead ringer nerf was justified too, but i think it got hit too hard. After activating it, you just have to either wait for it to recharge, or die horribly if you're sitting in a corner.
@@kubsons0732 I agree that part really sucks, I wish they'd just reduce the charge gain from ammo boxes even further instead of flat out removing that ability. Like maybe 75% less gain, that way you won't be able to spam it very often but still have the ability to get back in the fight faster.
I actually think that the Ambe nerf should have been the other way around, keep the falloff but get rid of the range limit. That would allow the item to still have its uniqueness in being the a weapon that can do work at long range, but is worse at self defense and 1v1s while not being too abusable and OP. Only having the range cap would create this weird bubble where enemies past it are untouchable but you can destroy anybody within it. The Ambe currently just isn't super unique from stock as far as what you can do with it, but I feel like getting rid of that range cap would help it be useful again. Maybe even buff the minimum damage from 54 to 72, but honestly even 54 damage headshots could make it worth running in some scenarios.
The YER is my favorite knife by gameplay design and is probably the main reason I'm a good spy to this day because when I wouldn't have a disguise, I had to learn how to kill under pressure, which increased both my trickstabbing ability and my ambassador accuracy. It's one of my favorite knives to use and I don't know why they need to change it this way... it feels more like a nerf than anything.
Anyone that believes the ambassador should be nerfed has probably never used the ambassador because it is clearly not overpowered. Almost every single spy player uses the ambassador as their go to load out yet I have never encountered a player who could actually land heads hots with it. They all get so caught up landing headshots that they forget they could've simply just body shotted their target to death with the amby or stock. Most spies generally overestimate their skill and the amby can be more of a detriment to their play. If you are going toe-to-toe with a pyr or soldier and you go for the heads hot and miss 1/2 shots it would have been more efficient to just body shot then 4 times with the stock. Basically, if you aren't 100% accurate it's almost always better to use the stock.
I've played enough highlander to know that amby spies who can aim well at long range can turn over the end result of a game. It's powerful at eliminating light classes as a headshot plus body shot can kill them almost immediately. While at long range it a body shot would only do 18 damage which after a headshot brings a light class to 10hp. It's likely that classes don't have 100% health at all times unless your medic is a god so it's likely you'll be dead before you know what happened. It's like a long range backstab. Which is completely unfair. While the arguement of you have to be good is understandable it kinda makes the weapon broken.
Great job at explaining all of your points really well, without getting mad, despite being somewhat frustrated (atleast thats how I feel). I'm really glad that someone has done this in a positive and mature way. I hope more people see this video because of that.
If a weapon like the deadringer or ambassador changes how a class plays, isn't that a good thing? Demoman has a fucking sword, allowing the weakest close range class to run around chopping peoples' heads off. Does that go with the demoman's class identity? If a heavy can heal with the sandvich, does that intrude on the medic's role?
The thing is the shields/swords for demo do exactly equate to the dead ringer, as they are both never used in competitive (which this update is supposedly basing it's changes around). The reason the dead ringer is bad is _because_ it is on a stealthy class. Since you cannot cloak until you are discovered, you are guaranteed to lose the element of surprise, which makes the spy's job 10 times as hard. And then you also can't cloak. While the ability to give out a medium health pack once every 20 seconds is pretty powerful, it will not out heal a medic, just like the ambassador will not out damage a sniper. If you get hit for a 102 crit, you will instantly know there is a spy, so the ambassador's use is restricted to after a stab, or if there is a really great opportunity, or else you may as well just play sniper.
Yes, but a Sniper needs to scope in for a shot and has more delay per bullet than a Spy. A skilled Spy can literally out-damage and kill a Pyro that discovered him in two shots. No amount of skill should allow for that. Also, long range Ambassador is complete bullshit since by the time you turn towards the direction you got shot from and started dodging, the Spy most likely has already cloaked, or headshot you again (By the way, have I mentioned that two amby headshots can bring down eight out of nine classes when not overhealed?). A sniper can't shoot you and disappear in a second, nor can a sniper cloak around and flank you. If you do go hunting for the Spy, you'll likely either get backstabbed or shot again from another angle you cannot predict.
If you are noticed by a Pyro you deserve to die. The entire point of being a Spy is not being noticed. It just flat out should not be possible for a Pyro to get out-damaged by a Spy at point-blank. Spy's only goal should be escaping at that point, not turning around and instakilling his attacker.
Hey stabby, first off I wanna say great video as its nice to hear a well known (and well skilled) spy's thoughts on these changes along with all the other good spys or anyone else bothering to give the changes some thought. Second off I just wanna say thank you. Your content has been fun to watch and has inspired me to just play spy more. The fun stuff you can get away with is a blast! While I don't be changing my main I will say you've given me new light on spy. Cheers!
I've watched this video like 5 times since you uploaded it and every time i've thought "this almost sounds like 'my favourite things'" then i check the description and i realise that this whole time that i've thought it was just something similar it actually was my favorite things now i feel really dumb and smart at the same time
The Amby nerf wouldn't do justice since in an actual comp as soon as the Spy backstabs someone the other five players will turn around and focus fire on the Spy. Sniper is already better than the Spy in comp because he is in no risk when he makes a specific kill. The Amby is the type of gun that grants him the option to get a ranged kill and not simply die from hiding in the corner with a C&D in attempt to backstab the Medic. If they were to nerf the Amby, then it would make the Spy class weaker in comp. I get that people say that it's the Sniper's job for long-ranged kills, but people need to remember that the Sniper still does a much better job in his profession than the Spy can even attempt. The Scout, Heavy, and Soldier are able to team heal with their items, so does that replace the Medic or even make him obsolete? No, because he's still the best at his job. With the Amby being reliably accurate, he's able to pick off classes in positions that the Sniper can't even go to. This makes the Spy potent in his field, and the Sniper can still one-shot any class regardless of range. With that said, I really see no reason why the Amby should be nerfed.
Sleeper's not wrong here. Neither end should be nerfed in this regard is the point. Hitting long range and short range headshots with either class is still an endeavor of skill. Introducing RNG deviance for one not only feels awful as a change, it also misses the point. Misses the point of the weapon even existing to begin with. Why would I choose a weapon based around higher precision when it's less accurate? Pointless. Meanwhile a good sniper is one of the best classes for omnirange engagements, and you often see (competitive, not matchmade) teams being carried by a sniper that they pocket. That's why they nerfed Razorback, for instance. With a pocket medic like snipers often get in HL, it made them effectively unkillable by either of their supposed counters. Came down to "Which sniper is being pocketed harder/Which sniper held the position first". "Spot the salty spy main" when spy is considered the least consistent and most situational pick in competitive play to begin with while he's being slapped with a plethora of nerfs is a bit obtuse, don't you think?
Nudge Bott finally someone with brain cells. This entire comment section is filled with people who have no experience playing against decent players and think that the amby is op just because they can't use it and are therefore frustrated.
If you have the skill to aim at a moving pixel across the map that you cannot one shot the majority of the time, you deserve the headshot if you get it.
The spy is supposed to be a sneaky class, getting behind enemy lines without being noticed, having a revolver given to a class supposed to be sneaky that rewards you for headshotting people across the map basicly doing the sniper's job and being overpowered. A good spy can abuse the 102 very much against bad players and making it very frustrating to play against.
>across the map. I play demoman and often get two shot from a spy, from halfway cross the map or medium range..???? You're a fucking spy ?! You should backstab of melee me to death, how come you get to do 100 damage to me, every 2 seconds? I'm okay with long range, because it should be my mistake not to like, stand still or walk forward..but I'm just saying that it should be short ////////// long range , not a medium one
Let's talk about the Sniper , He is a long range class , So what about the Headshots from 1cm of your head ? And they complain about the Amby ? Both of those are skilled so if valve wants to kill the Skill for realisme then they really fucked up . No one needs the logic here cuz its TF2 ffs :/
looking at the game now, he predicted headshot damage falloff for the amby, and the way he used dead ringer isn't possible anymore because of they removed the ability to get cloak while using the dead ringer. kinda stinky
The YER is my favorite knife for the Spy (barring the Prinny Machete, for silliness reasons), and the proposed changes to the knife scare me. I use the YER as a learning tool because, in my opinion, it's the hardest knife to use (which is also why it's the least used knife). I use it almost constantly, because if I can make the YER work, then I can make any knife work. At least, that's the idea. I use it stealthily, relying a lot on cloak and just avoiding the enemy's field of view. I couldn't care less about the ability to cloak at will, I wouldn't use it anyway. But the cloak drain rate penalty would cripple me something fierce. I honestly hope they don't change the YER at all.
I can't believe there is ANY support for this completely unnecessary Amby nerf. I'm kinda blown away even Stabby here suggested a 34 damage headshot from extreme ranges, even if just an idea to throw out there for video's sake. This IS what this revolver option was designed to do, it suffers penalties on pretty much every other aspect for the sole purpose of giving you a perfect shot every second that can also headshot. If you aren't landing those shots, you are just using a heavily weakened revolver with even more questionable aim if you don't wait for that cooldown to give you another chance. This CANNOT be allowed to come to pass, nor the YER nerf being disguised as a buff.
Then why don't you play Sniper, if you want to headshot people at long range and if you praise your aim so much ? The change won't hurt the Ambassador at close to medium range. It only remove accross-the-map BS. Spy isn't supposed to be a Sniper. Get over it. This change is long overdue.
Yeah, I did want a DR and Amby nerf but this is too much. The skill ceiling for spy will be dropped... like poor Pyro... god im still triggered about the Degreaser nerf man...
dummy there is literally no way to get rid of amby being op long range without killing it at mid range and there was literally no community outcries to have it banned over any other weapon. this change is unprecedented.
My favorite part about valve balancing is when they buff a weapon because it sucks and then nerf it to be even worse than its first concept. Like the lochnload and phlogistinator
Sulphurous Tbh fair weapons like PA and the cowmanger now see the light of day. Before that, nobody takes these weapons seriously. I say we wait and see after nerf. Its too early to tell or give the verdict because they haven't started the pyro update - *YET* At least now stocks weapons are something useful and the FOW is best bae than BFB in imbho.
The reason for this is because the unlocks are supposed to be like side grades. They come with a great buff or gimmick but at the cost of something like damage resistance, clip size etc. They aren't supposed to be better or worse than stock, just giving you a bonus and sacrifice to add to the ways to play the game. Some weapons are bad but that's going to happen considering the amount there are.
I stopped playing spy after DR nerf. I only liked spy as the gunslinger class, where you go around with your pistol and gun people down, then use DR to hide if you lose the duel. The first time they nerfed this it was the enforcer got the axe, so you had to get an extra hit in to do the same amount of damage with the regular revolver. Now, you cannot even play as gunslinger spy at all because it takes a hilarious amount of time for the cloak to recharge. You are better off playing with the normal wristwatch, with the knife rather than gun, and praying the enemy is too noob to ever spy check. This is not fun for me, so I never play spy.
@@bigsmoke8816 I always laugh at comments like these because you can clearly tell someone who got their shit pushed in by DR spy with below average aim accuracy. If you're losing 1v1 gun fights to a spy you should look into revaluating your life.
"I don't want to good at Spy because I frustrate people into playing poorly" But Stabby, isn't that a huge part of being a Spy? To be a general nuisance is the least a good Spy can do for his team.
I believe he was talking about relying very heavily on the heath and ammo packs recharging his dr and how it doesn't have a rhythm to it making it very unfair to the enemy team yet still easy to defeat Sure he wants to frustrate the other team but when you do it in such a cheap way you start to feel like it's not your own skill but with the """crutch""" of the deadringer
While getting a lot of kills on people (and then escaping) is generally considered being a nuisance no matter what class you're playing as, I don't think that specifically being as annoying as possible is a Spy's role in TF2. The Spy is considered to be the "espionage" class. I would describe the Spy's intended play style as being "sneaky", "calculating" and "opportunistic". However, the Dead Ringer (and to a similar extent, the Ambassador) encourages the Spy to be way more "annoying", "distracting" and "harassing". I don't think that these qualities should describe the Spy; a class that even as a character, is the most cold and calculating of the nine Mercs. In fact, that role seems more intended for the Scout more than anything.
Jonard Lolz I wouldn't say that, you can shut down teams of players with relative ease if you aren't on Highlander or something where everyone's on the mic. On Highlander you can do the same thing, but way slower and with much more thought and precision, and unfortunately a piece of that thought and precision is location relative to health and ammo packs.
As someone who never plays spy, I like the Ambassador as it is currently. The issue since the Meet Your Match Update is RUN SPEED. If a spy can get way way behind and start taking potshots on unaware players, credit to the spy. What's frustrating is after they blow their cover, their increased run speed means they can cloak/feign and be potentially anywhere. Cloak damage resistance allows spies to survive catching a direct rocket or pill while invisible. With unlocks, being able to run as fast as a scout, with more health than a scout, while invisible, just doesn't seem right. If a revolver needs a fall-off distance nerf, it's not the Ambassador, it's the Diamondback. As you mention, the spy is designed to prey on players with low awareness. Being on a team with unaware players is already frustrating, being punished with guaranteed no-falloff critical damage for trying to clean up their mess is doubly infuriating. Not only that, the rube who got backstabbed respawns before you so the spy gets another guaranteed crit for their next encounter. Dying to the Ambassador tells me, "I should've moved less predictably," dying to the Diamondback tells me "I should find a game with better teammates."
I personally believe the dead ringer should reduce healing from all sources since it is in line with the new reduction from ammo recharge for DR. It also keeps the spy away from the battlefield on a feign similar to a respawn but still keeps you on the front line
I think valve should have allowed the deadringer to recharge faster with ammo, but make it 50% less effective. As for the Amby, I think they should have made the damage falloff way less than it is now.
So when spy players combined oversights in map design and exploited a weapons mechanics, valve deemed it nerf worthy, and the community agreed. Man, I wonder if there's another class guilty of this same thing at the moment.
You see, the dead ringer is in my eyes very solid at where it is. it take away the spys unique ability to uncloak at will. and it also comes with a very loud decloak sound to balance it out. And when valve said it was frustrating to play against, that is a weak statement as i could say the sniper rifle is frustrating to play against because it can headshot. as for the ambassador its not an easy weapon to master but it does add some offensive capabilities to the spy, that of which he lacks. i agree that adding a damage fall off would be the best possible solution. Now for my favorite knife, the eternal reward is tremendously under estimated, but very powerful once you use it, and it gives the spy an alternative play style. Simply put this upcoming "balance change" is heavily handicapping the spy.
You're still the best, Stabster. I admire your bravado, you play spy like nobody I've seen would play spy, go in with gutsy skillful execution... where most other spies would run, hide, and regroup you almost immediately get back into situations that would get anyone with as much bravado killed, then, to my surprise manage to get out alive somehow while taking several kills with you. Any time anyone asks to see what a competitive spy looks like I point them to you as the gold standard.
Their reason is that good Spies can spam the DR and not have to worry about much else which is why they want to remove so that it isn't as much of a clutch for both noobs and pros
Just increase its cloak time and make it so decloakingdoesnt take half your cloak if you do it suddenly and it should be fine. It's good they're making it unspammble since that shit's annoying to fight against on certain areas of the map, and this is coming from someone who mainly plays spy. It's not fair that its a watch that encourages annoyance and agression in a class like spy and allows the spy to take more damage than even somthing like a heavy when there's just enough ammo.
I love rubbing the letranger YER and CnD for defense because you can just wait for your team to get picked off (or on HL for the medic to come out of hiding) and get easy chainstabs.
ANYONE READING THIS PLEASE REPLY how do you make your spy viewmodel like that? What I only see on my viewmodel are flat surface of the suit how do you make it like the video?
How about the Your Eternal Reward collected "disguises" like the the diamondback collects crits, except you start off with a small number (perhaps 2-3?). I think this would solve the problem of not having a disguise to deal with sentries (especially at the beginning of your life), but still necessitates that you plan your first engagements, since fighting and subsequently disguising would burn through the disguises very quickly. However, if you could gain disguises by killing opponents, then the spy would be rewarded for their efforts. I think it would also be really interesting if the YER spy could disguise instantly, since it could allow for really cool cart hijinks (is he the scout, or the soldier, wait now he's a engi)
To be honest, I think the Ambassador nerf was completely fine. Like the blog post said, Ambassador Spies can headshot from across the map which isn't something a Spy should really do and should be the Sniper's job however it's still going to easily headshot at close the medium range which to be honest, a lot of Spies already do. It not overpowered like you said but that doesn't mean it overused, at the moment the Ambassador is equipped by 43% of all players making it the most used Spy revolver and I think with the nerf, it's going to make it so people will use other Spy revolvers like the L'Etranger and even the stock Revolver. Also, I don't think damage falloff from headshots would really work since headshots or crits for that matter don't have damage falloff which is why Sniper Rifles always deal 150 damage on headshots at any range although if its possible, then it could potentially work. Overall, it's still the same Ambassador as before but now you can't easily headshot someone from across the map. With the Your Eternal Reward changes, I do think its a fair change since at the moment the YER is probably one of the worst Spy knifes in the game. It's not that bad like you said as it can be really useful in a lot of situations like for example chainstabbing an entire team on the Payload Cart or killing an Engie Nest without anyone noticing you, however its pretty useless in Competitive. The reason being that in Competitive, if people know there's a Spy on the enemy team, they will always spy-check and be constantly aware of their surroundings especially when they are trying to stop a Spy from backstabbing their Medic since teams will always communicate with each other. Also, you are always undisguised making you extremely vulnerable and open to everyone on the enemy team since with the other knives, you can disguise and make it less obvious to everyone and while people will spy-check you even if you have a disguise, it's just takes those extra few seconds to make even the most skilled players fall for your disguise and get an easy kill that could change the entire game. However, I do think they could slightly change the increased cloak drain rate by reducing it from 50% to 30-40% since you already use your entire cloak if you want to disguise but other than that, I think it's a pretty good change and its a knife I'm pretty excited for since people will use this knife more often than the other knives like the stock Knife and the Big Earner. And finally, I do agree with the Dead Ringer change since it made the Spy incredibly bulky since a skilled Spy that knows where the ammo boxes and health packs are can become very irritating and annoying to face against since he can pick up an ammo pack from the floor or even from killed players making him almost unkillable since he can constantly spam the Dead Ringer feign over and over again like you saw stabby do in this video. With the new changes, I think it's going to make people use the L'Etranger and Big Earner more since they grant cloak on hit and kill and also be used like it was originally was intended to be used, as an escape tool.
The problem that I see with the ambassador, and that many others have pointed out, is if Valve decides to change the bullet spread, then it sounds like sometimes, when shooting at medium/close range, you can miss, even if you have the most precise aim you physically can. Also, sometimes, people potentially could have the chance to hit a shot at any range, even if they completely were off, making it a lot less reliable and predictable, meaning players cannot really practice to get a lot better with the weapon, since there would always be that rng that could potentially mess up the shot, whatever the range. Though it would be easier to hit a shot close-range, the change sounds like you could still miss the shots, which could lead to a lot of frustration and unreliability. Woolen Sleevlet, a premiership spy, made a really good video about the spy changes, too, if you want to check that out.
And what about the Sniper's Head shots from 1cm away isn't that the Spy's job ? Dude both of them are skilled so stop talking about roles cuz TF2 Don't have and don't need a logic .
The thing is, if Valve wants TF2 to be more competitive, they need to remove as many elements of luck out of the game. A competitive game needs to be about both sides being completely even, and the only thing that matters is who is more skilled. When luck is added to the equation, there will always be instanced where skill is negated, and control is taken away from the player. Random crits aren't used in competitive because it's an element of luck that the player has no control over, and can win or lose a round not because the other player is better, but because they got lucky. Luck is great for newcomers because it ensures that they have a chance at winning a duel against someone better, but for everyone else it makes the game less satisfying and harder to be consistent. And really that's what we want; consistency, and the second luck is introduced consistency is thrown out the window. This nerf to the amby is taking away consistency, and replacing it with luck. A spy could spend hundreds of hours practicing his aim, learning how to predict enemy movement and make every shot count, and then have the perfect shot lined up against a scout about to cap the last point and win the game for the other team; only for it to miss because the game decided to fuck him over, and now they lost the game. That is the worst possible change you can make to the one of the most prominent competitive weapons in the game. It's going to go from the most used gun in comp to the least used, simply because in competitive you can not risk the chance of missing a crucial shot. It's a lazy fix that just bastardizes the gun, and actually doesn't fix the core problem. The problem is that the spy can spam it from any range and do a ton of damage with little to no threat. My proposed fix is to either a) increase the cool down time from 1 second to 2 seconds (sounds negligible but would make a huge difference in the spamability of the gun) b) Limit the clip size to 4, and half the amount of ammo gained from ammo packs and dispensers (only for the gun, otherwise it would cripple the class too much if cloak was also affected). Again, this will make it spamming harder with a greater ammo liability, and less shots per reload to spam.
Headhots from across the map are already not easy to do, this change will change them from being hard to do to being pure luck. The reason falloff would be a much better change is because with their change you will still get 102 hits across the map, but when you hit it or when you get hit by it you know it was 99% luck. With damage falloff you'll still get hit from across the map occasionally, but for like 30 damage, less than a sniper bodyshot, but with their change you'll still get hit, if less frequently, for 102. But the biggest problem with that is that you know it was a lucky shot, not a skilled shot. And at least for me that would be much less fun to play against and i would end up getting much saltier.
I see a lot of complaints about how the ambassador ruins the point of the spy class, namely that it is supposed to be sneaky, and having a weapon that can 2-shot an opponent 'across the map' (a little bit of an exaggeration tbh) is a little unfair and is already the job that snipers do. I couldn't disagree any harder, the fact is that it's not easy to headshot someone with a weapon that doesn't even zoom in from that fair away consistently. If anybody manages to get 2 headshots on the opponent from that far away, then you DO deserve the damage boost.Moreover, it isn't the spies fault if you get yourself killed continously in this way, there's a lot of things YOU can do to avoid it, maybe someone goes medic and heals you (god knows we need more of that in pubs), maybe you simply take a different path, maybe you just make yourself a harder target.
Captainfalconism if we gave a weapon to the heavy which allows him to complete a puzzle to gain free Uber for 50 seconds it wouldn't be considered "ok" because it's hard to do If we gave the ambassador to the medic it would stop him being a healing class and make him an offensive class. The spy is a pick class, like the Sniper, but he doesn't need to be THE FUCKING SNIPER HIMSELF so that he can pick off classes.
>things i want valve to do >Fix the fucking baby face's blaster and bison >things valve will do >ruin the amby, flying guillotine , basically everything
I would suggest dramatically increasing the duration of bullet spread to penalize Spies who try to spam Amby headshots too much. Like, five seconds after any given shot for the perfect accuracy to reset, which would potentially give targets of the first headshot time to withdraw and find a Medic or a health pack, encouraging the Ambassador to be a finisher on targets whose health is already below 102.
I'm glad you're being open minded when it comes to the DR nerf, Saying this will probably ease a lot of the spy mains saying that the DR nerf is unnecessary and will gladly take the change with a grain of salt. Its good that it's being nerfed though, a lot of the time fighting against its damage reduction, fire immunity and speed boost can really make it unfair, even if you are able to predict where the enemy is going, chances are, they're gonna survive your shot. I'm a little unsure about your view towards the ambassador not being that OP, Being able to place yourself next to a sniper and dish out nearly the same amount of damage is rather ridiculous and takes away from what the spy is supposed to be in the first place. Adding onto that, having the power and precision of a sniper along with having a smaller hitbox and being able to actually move about at much faster speeds than a zoomed in sniper takes the cake.
Swift Jake Well maybe that balance wise it's not OP, and that there are a certain other 2 spy revolvers that can either much much much more easily 2-3 shot any class, simply for stabbing, and doesn't do what its item text says it should, respectively.
Swift Jake The Sniper has the huntsman and its hitbox is pathetic because it allows sniper to get ridiculously aggressive in close range and get kills that a long range class shouldn't really be getting. If we follow by your logic, the huntsman should get nerfed too. A clever and skilled huntsman sniper with a razorback who stays with his team and medic is infuriating to deal with. At least with the ambassador the hitbox isn't so fucked and it actually takes a degree of skill to fire and get a headshot.
I mean didn't he suggest just nerfing its distance though, which would fix the problem it has. Honestly I'd more concerned with banacing the enforcer than anything though.
Since the problem with Ambassador is that you can headshot people from anywhere on the map, my idea for it is to nerf its mobility. Reduce cloak duration by 50%, so you have a harder time getting to those powerful sniping angles. Kinda like an opposite L' Etranger.
@@hootnoot5640 no he didn't lmao, he's been streaming on his twitch again since the beginning of quarantine, this person didn't know when they made the comment.
The amby spread thing could ruin close-medium range headshots; they should just give it a maximum headshot range so your shots can't headshot beyond a certain range.
YER should, as others have said, allow you to match the speed of the class and to have a max health (while disguised) of the class you're disguised as.
Ambassador's balance changes should look like McCree's nerf from Overwatch if you were in that game in beta times. He's really similar to an Amby spy with his gameplay, and all they did was increase the damage falloff from distance.
Make it so you get one disguise from the start with the YER and make it so you can't manually disguise again unless you get at least 2 back stabs or something. This current change though is too extreme atm with the negative cloak drain like you said.
Maybe they can have the YER give the spy the max health of the class they are currently disguised as? Or maybe if they stab a scout, while they're disguised they're as fast as a scout/can double jump or when they're a pyro or targe demo they're flame retardant, etc.
+tan(90 the idea of the YER gifting a bonus that relates to the strengths of the victim's class is very interesting, but sounds like a nightmare to balance
tan(90 I use the YER sometimes in HL, already. It gives you an extra moment to get another stab or escape before the comms kick in--sentries are really what prevent it from being run as-is
For yer i think allowing scout speed to a player when having stabbed a person would be nice as well as a faster decloak and or cloak to allow for a bit of an easier time picking up a disguise
I do not like the Ambassador changes, period. The fact it takes 2 headshots to kill anyone means the Sniper is still better. They'd be better off just nerfing the rate of fire and removing the spread and cooldown. So its basically headshots only. The body dps would be balls.
+watsyurdeal well, it doesn't always take 2 shots--plenty of injured targets to pick from and spies can see health. What spies have that snipers don't is the ability to take shots from unexpectable sight lines where targets wouldn't think to be moving evasively. I think a rate of fire nerf wouldn't address that
What alot of people don't realise is that games like csgo already use this way of balancing weapons. If you're at medium range to someone, as long as you hit the centre of the player's head hitbox, you will headshot them. Most likely if they add random spread it'll only be a tiny ammount, so if you're trying to hit a pixel from across the map, you'll miss, but hitting the same place at close range still means a headshot.
So basically what they're saying is "here's a weapon that can headshot, oh but good luck using it at a range, its very inconsistent. You're gonna need to be in someone's face to use this "sniper" like weapon".
![[TF2] In Defense Of The Ambassador](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/odd5NY6UCR4/mqdefault.jpg)
![Why [TF2] has (Almost) Perfect Melee Weapons](/img/n.gif)
Adding inaccuracy to the amby is like adding tripping in Smash Bros
*laughs*...have you ever made a game?
Oh my god this is sooo accurate man!
ArtilleryCrusader What does that have to do with it?
Yes, this.
"laughs...have you ever made a game?"
"What does that have to do with it?"
Most likely he's referring to a technique called Wavedashing from Super Smash Brothers melee that are used by competitive players which was an exploit that's never meant to be in the game
(not easy to do but it was still an exploit)
-and probably the main reason why melee has a competitive base but that's just me-
They made it impossible to perform in brawl and Wii u / 3DS by having the player trip
*Take this post with a grain of salt, everything I've said is most likely not correct
Next Spy changes. Removed ability to cloak and disguise. Removed backstab. Removed revolver. Instead of backstab, Spy now flips a middle finger at the player.
Funny thing is that is actually a workshop weapon.
It feels thats what they did to spy in jungle inferno update and i dont know why they had to touch the YER they nerfed it i dont like it at all anymore
inb4 the stranger gets nerfed to the ground
@@harderbetterfaster15 Yup, all spy got during Jungle Inferno was ONE BIG SWIFT KICK IN THE BALLS
Update: - Remove spy
I remember you having wildly different (impulsive) opinions about the Amby and the DR on Twitter the day these changes were proposed. I'm glad that in the following month, you seem to have completely changed your mind on what should be done instead of the RNG-based long-range Amby shots, as well as the DR.
I agree that the Amby shouldn't be able to do 102 at long range (Spy is a close-range class, he shouldn't be viable as a pseudo-Sniper in my opinion), but Valve's change is on the right track towards making that ability more frustrating for everyone involved rather than fixing it. I'd much rather the Amby ONLY be effective at close range as a skill-based finishing move on someone who isn't able to be stabbed (currently facing you, wearing the razorback, etc.).
I also agree that Spy shouldn't be able to just run around and be an annoying nuisance with bells and whistles attempting to waste everyone's time (Spy is a sneaky, espionage class, and being able to loudly and effectively cheat death over and over for little effort is not sneaky in the slightest - in fact it's the opposite). I honestly don't know if a counter-buff is necessary, but I also don't think your idea of slightly increasing the recharge time is out of the question either.
And finally, I agree that the changes to the YER seem like a decision that was made based on the usage stats rather than how effective the knife actually is. In the right hands and against the right team, the YER is almost a straight upgrade with a different type of domino effect that you see in other knives like the Kunai or the Big Earner. I see nothing wrong with how it works currently and allowing people to disguise with it seems like it would only improve the effectiveness in the same situations that it's used in now (I think it would practically be a straight upgrade against teams who don't Spy-check friendly teammates). However, I can totally see what they're trying to do with the YER: they're attempting to make it the knife that favors disguising over cloaking. It's very similar to the way the L'tranger is balanced for example: it increases the ease of cloaking while decreasing the effectiveness of shooting. So basically, the while the L'tranger is the gun for Spies who would rather cloak better than shoot better, the new YER is the knife for the Spies who would rather disguise better than cloak better. And because of this, the L'tranger will be more viable when used alongside its set partner: the YER, which makes sense. So, yeah... I can see what they're trying to do with the YER changes. I just don't know if it's exactly necessary, since the knife is already pretty situationally useful. I just think it's underused because the average pub Spies are punished harder when using it.
tl;dr - I A G R E E .
I don't agree. I don't believe the ambassador is problematic and it's only ever really been an issue with hackers for me. I just don't understand the mentality of nerfing the already worse class in the game and he should definitely receive at least some sort of counter buff. I don't care what it is, anything that makes him not as shit as he is and as he's going to be. In a game where random crits exist and I can die instantly to a heavy who's sitting across the map as if he's a sniper I can't see a reason as to why the Ambassador shouldn't get headshots across the map.
+Uncle Dane I actually think my opinions are more or less the same, just fleshed out. Good thoughts here
hey man i got your hud and the health text is HUGE how can i edit it to where its not taking up half my screen also how do i change the backround picture in the main menu
Starscream Already worse class? There are no good or bad classes, they are all just too different. It's true that having 3+ spies is worse than having 2 spies and an additional soldier, but a team of 10-12 should definetly consist of two or at very least one spy. He is soo necessary to distract the enemy team and counter heavies, snipers and just everything that your team is struggling with (including sentries). You can put him together with the sniper as the class, which supports the team by removing enemy high dps threats, so yours can push through.
Uncle Dane
Ah I love the use of John coltranes arrangement of “my favourite things” in the background :)
Honestly if Valve want people to use the YER more, instead of the proposed change, why not take the current YER and allow spy to run at scout speed when disguised as that class? It will make the knife more appealing to many players without completely botching it.
*Edited to remove medic.
Medic is the fastest character in the game besides the scout, he's slightly above average speed
Yup, I only recently returned to the game and while I knew spy was faster now, I didn't realize he was on par with medic. TIL. :)
Maybe a flat speed buff for the YER would be a good idea. Not scout speed though
Spy runs at the same speed as Medic.
Your Eternal Reward gives you the fucking ability to become someone once you stab them
why the hell do you need the ability to cloak as well?
and him being the weakest class isn't an excuse as he can run almost up the scout's speed
The DR nerf was completely justified and I'm actually fine with the way it is right now.
The Ambassador on the other hand, really didn't deserve the harsh nerf. They should have just capped the max headshot range instead of giving it falloff (terrible one, at that).
I think that dead ringer nerf was justified too, but i think it got hit too hard. After activating it, you just have to either wait for it to recharge, or die horribly if you're sitting in a corner.
@@kubsons0732 I agree that part really sucks, I wish they'd just reduce the charge gain from ammo boxes even further instead of flat out removing that ability. Like maybe 75% less gain, that way you won't be able to spam it very often but still have the ability to get back in the fight faster.
I actually think that the Ambe nerf should have been the other way around, keep the falloff but get rid of the range limit. That would allow the item to still have its uniqueness in being the a weapon that can do work at long range, but is worse at self defense and 1v1s while not being too abusable and OP. Only having the range cap would create this weird bubble where enemies past it are untouchable but you can destroy anybody within it. The Ambe currently just isn't super unique from stock as far as what you can do with it, but I feel like getting rid of that range cap would help it be useful again. Maybe even buff the minimum damage from 54 to 72, but honestly even 54 damage headshots could make it worth running in some scenarios.
The YER is my favorite knife by gameplay design and is probably the main reason I'm a good spy to this day because when I wouldn't have a disguise, I had to learn how to kill under pressure, which increased both my trickstabbing ability and my ambassador accuracy. It's one of my favorite knives to use and I don't know why they need to change it this way... it feels more like a nerf than anything.
I like how my favorite things is playing in the background
Anyone that believes the ambassador should be nerfed has probably never used the ambassador because it is clearly not overpowered. Almost every single spy player uses the ambassador as their go to load out yet I have never encountered a player who could actually land heads hots with it. They all get so caught up landing headshots that they forget they could've simply just body shotted their target to death with the amby or stock. Most spies generally overestimate their skill and the amby can be more of a detriment to their play. If you are going toe-to-toe with a pyr or soldier and you go for the heads hot and miss 1/2 shots it would have been more efficient to just body shot then 4 times with the stock. Basically, if you aren't 100% accurate it's almost always better to use the stock.
Beavalova 99 T H E A M B Y I S N O T G O I N G T O B E B A D I T ' S S T I L L G O I N G T O B E M O R E A C C U R A T E T H A N S T O C K
Beavalova 99 yea, it's totally ok for a 107% speed sniper to go invisible and headshot people with little risk because "people who use it are bad"
maybe they are playing a video game, to have fun?
Unless u practice a lot and feel u can headshot ( sometimes, I'm bad at using amby :c)
I've played enough highlander to know that amby spies who can aim well at long range can turn over the end result of a game. It's powerful at eliminating light classes as a headshot plus body shot can kill them almost immediately. While at long range it a body shot would only do 18 damage which after a headshot brings a light class to 10hp. It's likely that classes don't have 100% health at all times unless your medic is a god so it's likely you'll be dead before you know what happened. It's like a long range backstab. Which is completely unfair. While the arguement of you have to be good is understandable it kinda makes the weapon broken.
It just turned my birthday! Thanks stabby!
Sonic's Plush Adventures ! Happy Birthday.
Sonic's Plush Adventures ! Happy birthday!
Sonic's Plush Adventures ! Happy Birthday!
heppee borthdeigh C:
Thanks to all of you!
John Coltrane - My favourite things
I love you and your musical taste, Stabby
Great job at explaining all of your points really well, without getting mad, despite being somewhat frustrated (atleast thats how I feel). I'm really glad that someone has done this in a positive and mature way. I hope more people see this video because of that.
He may not be perfect when saying his thoughts live, but his videos are something else when he puts his time into it.
I love that the new YER ended up being a hard counter to nests, though the 30% cloak drain rate increase is a little ridiculous.
If a weapon like the deadringer or ambassador changes how a class plays, isn't that a good thing?
Demoman has a fucking sword, allowing the weakest close range class to run around chopping peoples' heads off.
Does that go with the demoman's class identity?
If a heavy can heal with the sandvich, does that intrude on the medic's role?
The thing is the shields/swords for demo do exactly equate to the dead ringer, as they are both never used in competitive (which this update is supposedly basing it's changes around). The reason the dead ringer is bad is _because_ it is on a stealthy class. Since you cannot cloak until you are discovered, you are guaranteed to lose the element of surprise, which makes the spy's job 10 times as hard. And then you also can't cloak.
While the ability to give out a medium health pack once every 20 seconds is pretty powerful, it will not out heal a medic, just like the ambassador will not out damage a sniper. If you get hit for a 102 crit, you will instantly know there is a spy, so the ambassador's use is restricted to after a stab, or if there is a really great opportunity, or else you may as well just play sniper.
Yes, but a Sniper needs to scope in for a shot and has more delay per bullet than a Spy. A skilled Spy can literally out-damage and kill a Pyro that discovered him in two shots. No amount of skill should allow for that. Also, long range Ambassador is complete bullshit since by the time you turn towards the direction you got shot from and started dodging, the Spy most likely has already cloaked, or headshot you again (By the way, have I mentioned that two amby headshots can bring down eight out of nine classes when not overhealed?). A sniper can't shoot you and disappear in a second, nor can a sniper cloak around and flank you. If you do go hunting for the Spy, you'll likely either get backstabbed or shot again from another angle you cannot predict.
Ringo Pierzynski I like u c:
If you are noticed by a Pyro you deserve to die. The entire point of being a Spy is not being noticed. It just flat out should not be possible for a Pyro to get out-damaged by a Spy at point-blank. Spy's only goal should be escaping at that point, not turning around and instakilling his attacker.
You don't deserve to die because some random Pyro decided to spit a little flame and a very little little particle hits you
Hey stabby, first off I wanna say great video as its nice to hear a well known (and well skilled) spy's thoughts on these changes along with all the other good spys or anyone else bothering to give the changes some thought. Second off I just wanna say thank you. Your content has been fun to watch and has inspired me to just play spy more. The fun stuff you can get away with is a blast! While I don't be changing my main I will say you've given me new light on spy. Cheers!
stabby uploaded insta clicks
I've watched this video like 5 times since you uploaded it and every time i've thought "this almost sounds like 'my favourite things'" then i check the description and i realise that this whole time that i've thought it was just something similar it actually was my favorite things now i feel really dumb and smart at the same time
The Amby nerf wouldn't do justice since in an actual comp as soon as the Spy backstabs someone the other five players will turn around and focus fire on the Spy. Sniper is already better than the Spy in comp because he is in no risk when he makes a specific kill. The Amby is the type of gun that grants him the option to get a ranged kill and not simply die from hiding in the corner with a C&D in attempt to backstab the Medic. If they were to nerf the Amby, then it would make the Spy class weaker in comp.
I get that people say that it's the Sniper's job for long-ranged kills, but people need to remember that the Sniper still does a much better job in his profession than the Spy can even attempt. The Scout, Heavy, and Soldier are able to team heal with their items, so does that replace the Medic or even make him obsolete? No, because he's still the best at his job. With the Amby being reliably accurate, he's able to pick off classes in positions that the Sniper can't even go to. This makes the Spy potent in his field, and the Sniper can still one-shot any class regardless of range. With that said, I really see no reason why the Amby should be nerfed.
Sir Narwhal T H E A M B Y I S S T I L L G O I N G T O B E M O R E A C C U R A T E T H A N S T O C K
I can't even read that faze jesus christ
Isn't the ambassador straight up banned in competitive?
Which begs the question: why do people use the ambassador?
"Why do people use the ambassador"
Because it can headshot lol
The YER didnt need a change
it's actually a nerf (+50% cloak drain rate)
Yes, because there were no positive attributes added when that negative attribute was added /s
oh yes trading your entire cloak for a disguise is totally a positive change /s
Starscream no,cuz cloacking is more important than disguise :)
If cloaking is more important don't use YER
Love the use of My Favorite Things
If Spy is getting a nerf to his long-range capabilities, Sniper should get a nerf to close-range capabilities.
Let's play spot the salty spy main.
Also, what "close-range capabilities" are you going to nerf for Sniper ? Their kukris ?
I was referring to their ability to deal max-damage headshots at close-range.
Sleeper's not wrong here. Neither end should be nerfed in this regard is the point. Hitting long range and short range headshots with either class is still an endeavor of skill. Introducing RNG deviance for one not only feels awful as a change, it also misses the point. Misses the point of the weapon even existing to begin with. Why would I choose a weapon based around higher precision when it's less accurate? Pointless.
Meanwhile a good sniper is one of the best classes for omnirange engagements, and you often see (competitive, not matchmade) teams being carried by a sniper that they pocket. That's why they nerfed Razorback, for instance. With a pocket medic like snipers often get in HL, it made them effectively unkillable by either of their supposed counters. Came down to "Which sniper is being pocketed harder/Which sniper held the position first".
"Spot the salty spy main" when spy is considered the least consistent and most situational pick in competitive play to begin with while he's being slapped with a plethora of nerfs is a bit obtuse, don't you think?
They should decrease their crits stored on their kukri from 10000000000 to only 3 per life :/
Nudge Bott finally someone with brain cells. This entire comment section is filled with people who have no experience playing against decent players and think that the amby is op just because they can't use it and are therefore frustrated.
We miss the old ambassador
If you have the skill to aim at a moving pixel across the map that you cannot one shot the majority of the time, you deserve the headshot if you get it.
The spy is supposed to be a sneaky class, getting behind enemy lines without being noticed, having a revolver given to a class supposed to be sneaky that rewards you for headshotting people across the map basicly doing the sniper's job and being overpowered. A good spy can abuse the 102 very much against bad players and making it very frustrating to play against.
>across the map.
I play demoman and often get two shot from a spy, from halfway cross the map or medium range..????
You're a fucking spy ?! You should backstab of melee me to death, how come you get to do 100 damage to me, every 2 seconds?
I'm okay with long range, because it should be my mistake not to like, stand still or walk forward..but I'm just saying that it should be short ////////// long range , not a medium one
>overpowered
i'd like to remind you that the spy is in the lowest tier
Let's talk about the Sniper , He is a long range class , So what about the Headshots from 1cm of your head ?
And they complain about the Amby ?
Both of those are skilled so if valve wants to kill the Skill for realisme then they really fucked up . No one needs the logic here cuz its TF2 ffs :/
You dont. Imagine giving the amby to the medic, he would deserve the headshots he gets too, but is that really what we want medics to be doing?
I love your taste in music, Stabby.
Those were some nasty killing sprees0.0
looking at the game now, he predicted headshot damage falloff for the amby, and the way he used dead ringer isn't possible anymore because of they removed the ability to get cloak while using the dead ringer. kinda stinky
So the YER is made worse, and the amby and dead ringer are nerfed to the point where it's useless.
*YEAH THAT SEEMS ABOUT RIGHT*
Idk, the amby and DR still work well.
the YER sucks though, that cloak drain rate is rough
FINALLY!!IT HAS BEEN TWO MONTHS
omg great choice of background music.
i really like your ideas stabby, i hope valve considers this video
The YER is my favorite knife for the Spy (barring the Prinny Machete, for silliness reasons), and the proposed changes to the knife scare me. I use the YER as a learning tool because, in my opinion, it's the hardest knife to use (which is also why it's the least used knife). I use it almost constantly, because if I can make the YER work, then I can make any knife work. At least, that's the idea. I use it stealthily, relying a lot on cloak and just avoiding the enemy's field of view. I couldn't care less about the ability to cloak at will, I wouldn't use it anyway. But the cloak drain rate penalty would cripple me something fierce. I honestly hope they don't change the YER at all.
Rip YER
I think they should make the wanga prick act like the old yer
The cloak drain debuff basically made it unusable unless you equip the Letranger.
even with the L’tranger, its still a pretty bad weapon
why wouldnt valve just make 2 different version especially when it has a reskin.... just make 1 as the older one and another one the updated one
I can't believe there is ANY support for this completely unnecessary Amby nerf. I'm kinda blown away even Stabby here suggested a 34 damage headshot from extreme ranges, even if just an idea to throw out there for video's sake.
This IS what this revolver option was designed to do, it suffers penalties on pretty much every other aspect for the sole purpose of giving you a perfect shot every second that can also headshot. If you aren't landing those shots, you are just using a heavily weakened revolver with even more questionable aim if you don't wait for that cooldown to give you another chance.
This CANNOT be allowed to come to pass, nor the YER nerf being disguised as a buff.
Yo i played with you in casual (unless quyzbuk was somebody else.), plus i fully agree
Then why don't you play Sniper, if you want to headshot people at long range and if you praise your aim so much ?
The change won't hurt the Ambassador at close to medium range. It only remove accross-the-map BS.
Spy isn't supposed to be a Sniper. Get over it. This change is long overdue.
Yeah, I did want a DR and Amby nerf but this is too much. The skill ceiling for spy will be dropped... like poor Pyro... god im still triggered about the Degreaser nerf man...
Quyzbuk T H E A M B Y I S S T I L L M O R E A C C U R A T E T H A N S T O C K
dummy there is literally no way to get rid of amby being op long range without killing it at mid range and there was literally no community outcries to have it banned over any other weapon. this change is unprecedented.
TF2 Team: Making weapon unlocks even more useless since 2015
To be fair, a lot of items were shit and still are shit to this day.
Except for the Eureka effect which was changed on MyM
I don't like valve's stance of "balancing" only the tall poppies, while ignoring the steadily increasing amount of absolutely trash unlocks.
My favorite part about valve balancing is when they buff a weapon because it sucks and then nerf it to be even worse than its first concept. Like the lochnload and phlogistinator
Sulphurous Tbh fair weapons like PA and the cowmanger now see the light of day. Before that, nobody takes these weapons seriously.
I say we wait and see after nerf. Its too early to tell or give the verdict because they haven't started the pyro update - *YET*
At least now stocks weapons are something useful and the FOW is best bae than BFB in imbho.
The reason for this is because the unlocks are supposed to be like side grades. They come with a great buff or gimmick but at the cost of something like damage resistance, clip size etc. They aren't supposed to be better or worse than stock, just giving you a bonus and sacrifice to add to the ways to play the game. Some weapons are bad but that's going to happen considering the amount there are.
Whenever I use the ambassador myself, I think it is fine.
It is Stabbys's videos that make me understand valve's point about nerfing it.
Fuck dude, you have a nice taste in music. John Coltrane's Favourite Things is the best thing to listen while playing tf2
I think Stabby has future vision or something. He's just incredible.
S'called game sense.
Its free realestate
I love how long the saxophones trail off at the end, lol.
I stopped playing spy after DR nerf. I only liked spy as the gunslinger class, where you go around with your pistol and gun people down, then use DR to hide if you lose the duel. The first time they nerfed this it was the enforcer got the axe, so you had to get an extra hit in to do the same amount of damage with the regular revolver. Now, you cannot even play as gunslinger spy at all because it takes a hilarious amount of time for the cloak to recharge. You are better off playing with the normal wristwatch, with the knife rather than gun, and praying the enemy is too noob to ever spy check. This is not fun for me, so I never play spy.
So basically "I cant stay alive for more than 5 seconds without a crutchy get out of jail free card"
@@bigsmoke8816 still, using crutches > soundsmith
@@bigsmoke8816 I always laugh at comments like these because you can clearly tell someone who got their shit pushed in by DR spy with below average aim accuracy. If you're losing 1v1 gun fights to a spy you should look into revaluating your life.
@@summ.3433 nahhh now that the deadringer is balanced I have no problem killing spies
"I don't want to good at Spy because I frustrate people into playing poorly"
But Stabby, isn't that a huge part of being a Spy? To be a general nuisance is the least a good Spy can do for his team.
It's a part of it, but over the course of the years, it felt like that's the only thing a Spy can do nowadays aside from destroying 'noobs'
I believe he was talking about relying very heavily on the heath and ammo packs recharging his dr and how it doesn't have a rhythm to it making it very unfair to the enemy team yet still easy to defeat
Sure he wants to frustrate the other team but when you do it in such a cheap way you start to feel like it's not your own skill but with the """crutch""" of the deadringer
While getting a lot of kills on people (and then escaping) is generally considered being a nuisance no matter what class you're playing as, I don't think that specifically being as annoying as possible is a Spy's role in TF2. The Spy is considered to be the "espionage" class. I would describe the Spy's intended play style as being "sneaky", "calculating" and "opportunistic". However, the Dead Ringer (and to a similar extent, the Ambassador) encourages the Spy to be way more "annoying", "distracting" and "harassing". I don't think that these qualities should describe the Spy; a class that even as a character, is the most cold and calculating of the nine Mercs. In fact, that role seems more intended for the Scout more than anything.
In other words
the spy may be weak but the deadringer makes him another annoying son of a bitch like the scout
Jonard Lolz I wouldn't say that, you can shut down teams of players with relative ease if you aren't on Highlander or something where everyone's on the mic. On Highlander you can do the same thing, but way slower and with much more thought and precision, and unfortunately a piece of that thought and precision is location relative to health and ammo packs.
As someone who never plays spy, I like the Ambassador as it is currently. The issue since the Meet Your Match Update is RUN SPEED.
If a spy can get way way behind and start taking potshots on unaware players, credit to the spy. What's frustrating is after they blow their cover, their increased run speed means they can cloak/feign and be potentially anywhere. Cloak damage resistance allows spies to survive catching a direct rocket or pill while invisible. With unlocks, being able to run as fast as a scout, with more health than a scout, while invisible, just doesn't seem right.
If a revolver needs a fall-off distance nerf, it's not the Ambassador, it's the Diamondback. As you mention, the spy is designed to prey on players with low awareness. Being on a team with unaware players is already frustrating, being punished with guaranteed no-falloff critical damage for trying to clean up their mess is doubly infuriating. Not only that, the rube who got backstabbed respawns before you so the spy gets another guaranteed crit for their next encounter. Dying to the Ambassador tells me, "I should've moved less predictably," dying to the Diamondback tells me "I should find a game with better teammates."
I missed the day you can refill DR with ammo box and faked death on backstabs :(
I personally believe the dead ringer should reduce healing from all sources since it is in line with the new reduction from ammo recharge for DR. It also keeps the spy away from the battlefield on a feign similar to a respawn but still keeps you on the front line
I think valve should have allowed the deadringer to recharge faster with ammo, but make it 50% less effective. As for the Amby, I think they should have made the damage falloff way less than it is now.
7:18 dear lord this medic has wild fantasys if he thinks its a good sign when teammates suddenly disappear
Fuck valve what have you done to the DR!?
Scarce and stabby both confirmed to be alive on the same day?
Niceu.
This is BEAUTIFUL game play.
So when spy players combined oversights in map design and exploited a weapons mechanics, valve deemed it nerf worthy, and the community agreed.
Man, I wonder if there's another class guilty of this same thing at the moment.
If the ambassador did x3 damage on headshot it would deal 153 at close range due to damage ramp up, so maybe it should be capped at a certain number.
Fyreshawtz he said ×2
You see, the dead ringer is in my eyes very solid at where it is. it take away the spys unique ability to uncloak at will. and it also comes with a very loud decloak sound to balance it out. And when valve said it was frustrating to play against, that is a weak statement as i could say the sniper rifle is frustrating to play against because it can headshot. as for the ambassador its not an easy weapon to master but it does add some offensive capabilities to the spy, that of which he lacks. i agree that adding a damage fall off would be the best possible solution. Now for my favorite knife, the eternal reward is tremendously under estimated, but very powerful once you use it, and it gives the spy an alternative play style. Simply put this upcoming "balance change" is heavily handicapping the spy.
I cant believe its been 3 years since the last major update
You're still the best, Stabster. I admire your bravado, you play spy like nobody I've seen would play spy, go in with gutsy skillful execution... where most other spies would run, hide, and regroup you almost immediately get back into situations that would get anyone with as much bravado killed, then, to my surprise manage to get out alive somehow while taking several kills with you. Any time anyone asks to see what a competitive spy looks like I point them to you as the gold standard.
honestly idk how mr.paladin is relevant when stabby exists
i just love the john coltrane as ambient music.
the nurf to the ambasadoor is actually really nice to have, it would prevent spys from aimbotting
Isn't the yer "buff" going to be a nerf, also they tried to fix the ded rounder with its metal pick up b4 -_- now they are just going to remove it :(
Their reason is that good Spies can spam the DR and not have to worry about much else which is why they want to remove so that it isn't as much of a clutch for both noobs and pros
Its a change in how it works, stop looking at balance changes so one-dimentionally actually take the time to realize why they're doing these changes.
Just increase its cloak time and make it so decloakingdoesnt take half your cloak if you do it suddenly and it should be fine. It's good they're making it unspammble since that shit's annoying to fight against on certain areas of the map, and this is coming from someone who mainly plays spy. It's not fair that its a watch that encourages annoyance and agression in a class like spy and allows the spy to take more damage than even somthing like a heavy when there's just enough ammo.
How is this three years old it felt like 1 year ago
I love rubbing the letranger YER and CnD for defense because you can just wait for your team to get picked off (or on HL for the medic to come out of hiding) and get easy chainstabs.
Coltrane + Stabby voice. I'm moist.
John Coltrane you fucking Legend.
I don't know if anyone else thinks this, but the YER looks really cool with the purple sheen.
Headshots shouldn't crit, they should just do 300% damage.
So, they still do the same damage, just w/ falloff.
Lovin the charlie parker in the background
Dead Ringer
Cloack type:Feign Death
Everything else is bad
Fucking the John Coltrane in the background makes me so happy
ANYONE READING THIS PLEASE REPLY how do you make your spy viewmodel like that? What I only see on my viewmodel are flat surface of the suit how do you make it like the video?
How about the Your Eternal Reward collected "disguises" like the the diamondback collects crits, except you start off with a small number (perhaps 2-3?). I think this would solve the problem of not having a disguise to deal with sentries (especially at the beginning of your life), but still necessitates that you plan your first engagements, since fighting and subsequently disguising would burn through the disguises very quickly. However, if you could gain disguises by killing opponents, then the spy would be rewarded for their efforts. I think it would also be really interesting if the YER spy could disguise instantly, since it could allow for really cool cart hijinks (is he the scout, or the soldier, wait now he's a engi)
To be honest, I think the Ambassador nerf was completely fine. Like the blog post said, Ambassador Spies can headshot from across the map which isn't something a Spy should really do and should be the Sniper's job however it's still going to easily headshot at close the medium range which to be honest, a lot of Spies already do. It not overpowered like you said but that doesn't mean it overused, at the moment the Ambassador is equipped by 43% of all players making it the most used Spy revolver and I think with the nerf, it's going to make it so people will use other Spy revolvers like the L'Etranger and even the stock Revolver. Also, I don't think damage falloff from headshots would really work since headshots or crits for that matter don't have damage falloff which is why Sniper Rifles always deal 150 damage on headshots at any range although if its possible, then it could potentially work. Overall, it's still the same Ambassador as before but now you can't easily headshot someone from across the map.
With the Your Eternal Reward changes, I do think its a fair change since at the moment the YER is probably one of the worst Spy knifes in the game. It's not that bad like you said as it can be really useful in a lot of situations like for example chainstabbing an entire team on the Payload Cart or killing an Engie Nest without anyone noticing you, however its pretty useless in Competitive. The reason being that in Competitive, if people know there's a Spy on the enemy team, they will always spy-check and be constantly aware of their surroundings especially when they are trying to stop a Spy from backstabbing their Medic since teams will always communicate with each other. Also, you are always undisguised making you extremely vulnerable and open to everyone on the enemy team since with the other knives, you can disguise and make it less obvious to everyone and while people will spy-check you even if you have a disguise, it's just takes those extra few seconds to make even the most skilled players fall for your disguise and get an easy kill that could change the entire game. However, I do think they could slightly change the increased cloak drain rate by reducing it from 50% to 30-40% since you already use your entire cloak if you want to disguise but other than that, I think it's a pretty good change and its a knife I'm pretty excited for since people will use this knife more often than the other knives like the stock Knife and the Big Earner.
And finally, I do agree with the Dead Ringer change since it made the Spy incredibly bulky since a skilled Spy that knows where the ammo boxes and health packs are can become very irritating and annoying to face against since he can pick up an ammo pack from the floor or even from killed players making him almost unkillable since he can constantly spam the Dead Ringer feign over and over again like you saw stabby do in this video. With the new changes, I think it's going to make people use the L'Etranger and Big Earner more since they grant cloak on hit and kill and also be used like it was originally was intended to be used, as an escape tool.
The problem that I see with the ambassador, and that many others have pointed out, is if Valve decides to change the bullet spread, then it sounds like sometimes, when shooting at medium/close range, you can miss, even if you have the most precise aim you physically can. Also, sometimes, people potentially could have the chance to hit a shot at any range, even if they completely were off, making it a lot less reliable and predictable, meaning players cannot really practice to get a lot better with the weapon, since there would always be that rng that could potentially mess up the shot, whatever the range. Though it would be easier to hit a shot close-range, the change sounds like you could still miss the shots, which could lead to a lot of frustration and unreliability. Woolen Sleevlet, a premiership spy, made a really good video about the spy changes, too, if you want to check that out.
And what about the Sniper's Head shots from 1cm away isn't that the Spy's job ?
Dude both of them are skilled so stop talking about roles cuz TF2 Don't have and don't need a logic .
The thing is, if Valve wants TF2 to be more competitive, they need to remove as many elements of luck out of the game. A competitive game needs to be about both sides being completely even, and the only thing that matters is who is more skilled. When luck is added to the equation, there will always be instanced where skill is negated, and control is taken away from the player. Random crits aren't used in competitive because it's an element of luck that the player has no control over, and can win or lose a round not because the other player is better, but because they got lucky. Luck is great for newcomers because it ensures that they have a chance at winning a duel against someone better, but for everyone else it makes the game less satisfying and harder to be consistent. And really that's what we want; consistency, and the second luck is introduced consistency is thrown out the window.
This nerf to the amby is taking away consistency, and replacing it with luck. A spy could spend hundreds of hours practicing his aim, learning how to predict enemy movement and make every shot count, and then have the perfect shot lined up against a scout about to cap the last point and win the game for the other team; only for it to miss because the game decided to fuck him over, and now they lost the game. That is the worst possible change you can make to the one of the most prominent competitive weapons in the game. It's going to go from the most used gun in comp to the least used, simply because in competitive you can not risk the chance of missing a crucial shot.
It's a lazy fix that just bastardizes the gun, and actually doesn't fix the core problem. The problem is that the spy can spam it from any range and do a ton of damage with little to no threat. My proposed fix is to either
a) increase the cool down time from 1 second to 2 seconds (sounds negligible but would make a huge difference in the spamability of the gun)
b) Limit the clip size to 4, and half the amount of ammo gained from ammo packs and dispensers (only for the gun, otherwise it would cripple the class too much if cloak was also affected). Again, this will make it spamming harder with a greater ammo liability, and less shots per reload to spam.
Headhots from across the map are already not easy to do, this change will change them from being hard to do to being pure luck. The reason falloff would be a much better change is because with their change you will still get 102 hits across the map, but when you hit it or when you get hit by it you know it was 99% luck. With damage falloff you'll still get hit from across the map occasionally, but for like 30 damage, less than a sniper bodyshot, but with their change you'll still get hit, if less frequently, for 102. But the biggest problem with that is that you know it was a lucky shot, not a skilled shot. And at least for me that would be much less fun to play against and i would end up getting much saltier.
I feel that if you are skilled enough to be able to consistently headshot someone from across the map then you deserve that 102 damage.
Cloak cost disguises for YER makes sense.
The cloak consumption increase kills it.
I watched this video with classical music in the back round and it just made him sound smarter.
I see a lot of complaints about how the ambassador ruins the point of the spy class, namely that it is supposed to be sneaky, and having a weapon that can 2-shot an opponent 'across the map' (a little bit of an exaggeration tbh) is a little unfair and is already the job that snipers do. I couldn't disagree any harder, the fact is that it's not easy to headshot someone with a weapon that doesn't even zoom in from that fair away consistently. If anybody manages to get 2 headshots on the opponent from that far away, then you DO deserve the damage boost.Moreover, it isn't the spies fault if you get yourself killed continously in this way, there's a lot of things YOU can do to avoid it, maybe someone goes medic and heals you (god knows we need more of that in pubs), maybe you simply take a different path, maybe you just make yourself a harder target.
Captainfalconism if we gave a weapon to the heavy which allows him to complete a puzzle to gain free Uber for 50 seconds it wouldn't be considered "ok" because it's hard to do
If we gave the ambassador to the medic it would stop him being a healing class and make him an offensive class.
The spy is a pick class, like the Sniper, but he doesn't need to be THE FUCKING SNIPER HIMSELF so that he can pick off classes.
>things i want valve to do
>Fix the fucking baby face's blaster and bison
>things valve will do
>ruin the amby, flying guillotine , basically everything
I would suggest dramatically increasing the duration of bullet spread to penalize Spies who try to spam Amby headshots too much. Like, five seconds after any given shot for the perfect accuracy to reset, which would potentially give targets of the first headshot time to withdraw and find a Medic or a health pack, encouraging the Ambassador to be a finisher on targets whose health is already below 102.
I'm glad you're being open minded when it comes to the DR nerf, Saying this will probably ease a lot of the spy mains saying that the DR nerf is unnecessary and will gladly take the change with a grain of salt. Its good that it's being nerfed though, a lot of the time fighting against its damage reduction, fire immunity and speed boost can really make it unfair, even if you are able to predict where the enemy is going, chances are, they're gonna survive your shot. I'm a little unsure about your view towards the ambassador not being that OP, Being able to place yourself next to a sniper and dish out nearly the same amount of damage is rather ridiculous and takes away from what the spy is supposed to be in the first place. Adding onto that, having the power and precision of a sniper along with having a smaller hitbox and being able to actually move about at much faster speeds than a zoomed in sniper takes the cake.
Swift Jake
Well maybe that balance wise it's not OP, and that there are a certain other 2 spy revolvers that can either much much much more easily 2-3 shot any class, simply for stabbing, and doesn't do what its item text says it should, respectively.
Swift Jake The Sniper has the huntsman and its hitbox is pathetic because it allows sniper to get ridiculously aggressive in close range and get kills that a long range class shouldn't really be getting. If we follow by your logic, the huntsman should get nerfed too. A clever and skilled huntsman sniper with a razorback who stays with his team and medic is infuriating to deal with. At least with the ambassador the hitbox isn't so fucked and it actually takes a degree of skill to fire and get a headshot.
Id be more than happy with a huntsman nerf.
If huntsman gets a nerf i hope the ambassador doesn't grant headshots
I mean didn't he suggest just nerfing its distance though, which would fix the problem it has. Honestly I'd more concerned with banacing the enforcer than anything though.
Since the problem with Ambassador is that you can headshot people from anywhere on the map, my idea for it is to nerf its mobility. Reduce cloak duration by 50%, so you have a harder time getting to those powerful sniping angles. Kinda like an opposite L' Etranger.
>a reduction in the spread of non-perfectly accurate shots
But isnt that exactly what it's getting? It's bulled spread is getting reduced by 50%.
The real reason they're nerfing spy so much is that people are bad and can't deal with them (unless the spy is stabby; then you got a free-pass)
Andy Lu the real reason they're nerfing his WEAPONS (not himself, the weapons) is because they're bullshit. Get over it.
Digging the Coltrane
Valve's proposed changes to the dryer
Created an alt account, played some stock spy, did so much better than I ever have before with stock weaponry. I finally broke free from the DR
You can really tell Stabby hated the ambassador change because now he’s quit TF2
lol
You sure?
@@hootnoot5640 no he didn't lmao, he's been streaming on his twitch again since the beginning of quarantine, this person didn't know when they made the comment.
@@swordslash50 yeah i knew that all along, i am h00tn00t
@@hootnoot5640 LMAOOO
The amby spread thing could ruin close-medium range headshots; they should just give it a maximum headshot range so your shots can't headshot beyond a certain range.
Devs team said the spread won't change close to mid range headshots. They tested it.
Yes John Coltrane!
we use the same spy set The Ambassador, The Ap-Sap, The Dead Ringer, and the Stock Knife! XDD
YER should, as others have said, allow you to match the speed of the class and to have a max health (while disguised) of the class you're disguised as.
Ambassador's balance changes should look like McCree's nerf from Overwatch if you were in that game in beta times.
He's really similar to an Amby spy with his gameplay, and all they did was increase the damage falloff from distance.
Burno He's a McCree main in OW.
Make it so you get one disguise from the start with the YER and make it so you can't manually disguise again unless you get at least 2 back stabs or something. This current change though is too extreme atm with the negative cloak drain like you said.
Maybe they can have the YER give the spy the max health of the class they are currently disguised as? Or maybe if they stab a scout, while they're disguised they're as fast as a scout/can double jump or when they're a pyro or targe demo they're flame retardant, etc.
+tan(90 the idea of the YER gifting a bonus that relates to the strengths of the victim's class is very interesting, but sounds like a nightmare to balance
do you think it would be enough to have the YER see some competitive play? id imagine comms make it still too niche to use outside of pubs.
tan(90 I use the YER sometimes in HL, already. It gives you an extra moment to get another stab or escape before the comms kick in--sentries are really what prevent it from being run as-is
For yer i think allowing scout speed to a player when having stabbed a person would be nice as well as a faster decloak and or cloak to allow for a bit of an easier time picking up a disguise
coltrane is perfect for a 10 minute video
2:27-2:33 you asked, you received, which the nerf in action is quite an overkill.
the amby nerf is like the beta mcree nerf "you cant snipe any more, big damage fall off at a range ."
Awesome video I agree with everything you've said about the amby and DR but the big ammo packs/health packs are just flawed map designs.
the amount of time hit reg almost fucked you over
THAT LAST STAB SHOULD'VE REGISTERED.
Its generally not weapons which are OP, its the map design which can make them OP
excellent song choice
I do not like the Ambassador changes, period. The fact it takes 2 headshots to kill anyone means the Sniper is still better. They'd be better off just nerfing the rate of fire and removing the spread and cooldown. So its basically headshots only. The body dps would be balls.
+watsyurdeal well, it doesn't always take 2 shots--plenty of injured targets to pick from and spies can see health. What spies have that snipers don't is the ability to take shots from unexpectable sight lines where targets wouldn't think to be moving evasively. I think a rate of fire nerf wouldn't address that
What alot of people don't realise is that games like csgo already use this way of balancing weapons. If you're at medium range to someone, as long as you hit the centre of the player's head hitbox, you will headshot them. Most likely if they add random spread it'll only be a tiny ammount, so if you're trying to hit a pixel from across the map, you'll miss, but hitting the same place at close range still means a headshot.
So basically what they're saying is "here's a weapon that can headshot, oh but good luck using it at a range, its very inconsistent. You're gonna need to be in someone's face to use this "sniper" like weapon".
And yet the diamond back
need a nerf