The best part of watching reactions is the post commentary when I get to hear your theories and already know what's happening and what's to come. Plus getting to relive the whole "huh?" experience.
Socially oblivious is the term for Anya, thank you Mikey. She is oblivious to normal social behaviors. She may make others feel awkward be she has no hesitation about expressing what is on her mind. Tara is socially awkward, she has to struggle to fit in and is afraid to interject into a conversation. You will see these two develop in interesting ways. Also, Buffy is the only one that Willow has told about her relationship with Tara...until now.
I love this episode. Spike is very insightful when it comes to the people around him. Since he can’t kill he can still do maximum damage and cause chaos with his words. Evil Spike is still a lot of fun. Giles in this episode is hilarious.
You know, I never actually thought of Buffy as being viewed/consider as "The Yokor Factor" to Riley(John Lennon) and The Initiative, but you're absolutely right. I don't know how I didn't catch that before. That's a great note...
@@732ReviewCrew There is always a double meaning, or two ways of looking at the episode titles. Sometimes more. You hit on the "other" Yoko in this episode. That had never occurred to me. Good one.
I love this episode because, to me, it hits on the climax of the theme of the season: the high school group failing to stay connected in college. It started in the first episode with Buffy feeling isolated, before the second episode showed her not being believed about her roomate, went onto issues concerning Riley and The Initiative, to Willow and Tara's struggles with Willow coming out, Xander not being in college, Giles feeling useless (as a watchers [which he got fired from] and a father figure) without a job. This episode was the boiling point. Spike didn't make a mess so much as opened the groups eyes to all that they've been ignoring and were in denial about since _The Freshman._ Buffy was angry at Angel and throwing hurtful words at him while down there. What she said about Riley and loving him might not be true, especially if she hasn't said it to him yet. Socially awkward and socially oblivious are great terms for Tara and Anya.
There's a theory among a lot of fans (I'm not sure whether I agree) that Forrest was secretly in love with Riley, hence the clingy and jealous behaviour. This episode is one of my favs and I cannot wait for you to see the next two!
Timeline of full acknowledgements of the Tara/Willow relationship 4x16 - Faith makes the joke about Willow not driving stick anymore. 4x16 - "I am you know. [....] Yours." 4x19 - Buffy learns that Willow is dating Tara. Which is perfectly fine, Willow. 4x20 - Oblivious Xander finds out.
I don't even remember Angel being in this. I guess it makes sense for the story to split him from Buffy and get him where he is at the end. Again, fun talk at the end. 100% Anya is social oblivious. . . and I love it too! She got the Cordelia job in the show once she moved over to Angel.
Enjoyed the reaction, discussion, & predictions. Love how the theme of the season is brought to a boil in this one. I also sometimes forget how funny this episode is. Looking forward to two last episodes of season 4, love both, and your reactions to them. We'll see if the Mike's words about bonds transcending everything comes true.
Some interesting parts in this episode, highlights are Angel and Riley acting like jilted teenagers in Buffy's room, and the smug smile Angel gives Riley when she says she needs to talk to Angel alone. Also Giles being drunk and telling Buffy 'you'll get your arse kicked'. Buffy really hurts Willow and Xander when she says 'I guess that's why there is now ancient prophecy of the chosen one and her friends' after all they have done for her, and she has done for them. Some excellent work by Spike setting all the friends against each other like a modern day Iago from Othello, there was foreshadowing for this in The Earshot episode when Buffy was reading the students mind re Othello Play. Giles playing Freebird is of course the highlight.
The reason Willow came right out and said Tara was her girlfriend was that the writers had all though they'd made it really damn clear what was going on - but there were still tons of people who just didn't get it.
I always thought it seemed obvious that Giles' "bloody hell" was in response to Xander's cluelessness, not because the relationship was a surprise to himself. Giles probably noticed it quite some time ago.
@Mrs.Watcher I don't think Giles saw enough of them to have the faintest idea. Or Xander. Almost all of their relationship development has been in scenes where they were alone together, Tara's not been hanging out with the Scoobies for long at all (and is very shy, so she rarely speaks up) and Willow was actively hiding their relationship until she came out to Buffy last episode. It's obvious to us, but I think a lot of viewers forget that the other Scoobies haven't seen what we've seen.
@Talisguy I 41, prefer the head cannon that Giles is in a position that he is on the outside looking in with the Scoobies at this point. Noticing a lot, but not talking about it.
To be fair, Xander thought Buffy told Riley already because Riley said Biffy told him everything, so he assume she actually DID tell Riley everything already. Buffy left that part out. She didn't even tell him there even was clause to the curse at ALL, let alone "the perfect happiness clause" part of the story, which was a pretty big part of the story in even EXPLAINING how and why her vampire boyfriend with a soul went evil in the first place... Also, remember that Buffy was purposely throwing Riley in Angel's face out of pettiness because of the way he spoke to her about . There was literally no reason to bring up Riley in that conversation, but she did to put it in his face about he she finally has someone she loves AND can trust, indicating that she could never actually trust Angel, and that he never understood her. Just like Angel was being petty to Riley in this episode, rubbing his relationship with Buffy in his face, and purposely antagonizing him. I think kinda agree with Anya not being socially awkward. More so socially inappropriate through being socially unaware. Cordelia is also could be considered socially inappropriate due to her lack of awareness and tact. They're both socially inappropriate/unaware for different reasonings (Anya beinf a former 1000 year old demon and Cordelia being a spoiled rich girl who lacked being held accountable for her words) alrhough Cordelia DOES have more social awareness than Anya, but the lack of it very much still there. Despite who Xander goes for, there just may be a certain type he tends to end up with(he and Cordelia lasted almost a year, which A LOT for a high school relationship, and Anya's been here with Xander for most of the season). I would actually say that Xander is more socially awkward than Anya/Cordelia. Tara's socially awkward due to her lacking ability to socially communicate. Xander attempts to socially communicate but is also aware that he's constantly saying the wrong things or making social settings uncomfortable by their words/actions. Anya/Cordelia don't. He's just not really self concious about it like Tara...
"BtVS" was one of the few, almost non-existent TV shows, with gay couples The 90's had a lot of interesting movies that depicted gay couples, but not TV shows; Homophobia was rampant and generalized and by Xander and Giles's reactions you can have a sense of those days. BtVS was loved also for the away it advanced our visibility.
Why am I *not* surprised that Xander and Riley completely misunderstood Angel's curse? Probably because they're little boys, and their only idea of "perfect happiness" is sex. If it was sex, he would have lost his soul during the act, not after while he was holding Buffy.
Of course it was sex. But it wasn't merely the sex act. If it was just the closeness of loving and holding Buffy, it would have happened long before Surprise and happened again after he returned. If it wasn't the sex, why did Buffy and Angel talk several times about their not being allowed to have sex again? Whether the pain starts right at the point of orgasm or shortly afterward, it IS caused by sex with the woman he loves.
@@johnmoreland6089 true, but as we've seen (without giving spoilers), it's not just the sex. It's the intimacy of the act with someone you love, which brings true happiness that sex alone can't do. If he had sex with that actress who wanted to be turned into a vampire, it wouldn't have caused him to lose his soul (although he did temporarily experience the chemically induced sensation of losing his soul because she drugged him).
If it was because he was holding her, then he would have lost it anytime he was holding her. Then they would have actually written a scene where she was really sad or something and he would have comforted her and she would have fallen asleep and then he would have lost it. And they would be afraid to hug next time, not have sex. They wrote sex, after sex realization, while he was thinking about what happened. Not any "I Love You" was able to have the same affect on him. There are tons of real romantic subplots that could have been used if they wanted it, but they didn't choose to. This isn't called "being little boys," this is called reading a plot when it didn't fully realize what it did. Don't gaslight people when you don't like what they saw there. It's sometimes funny to watch someone start to dodge, coming up with different versions of why it happened after sex. That adult man was the happiest after he had sex with a 17 year old that he first saw when she was 15. This is what kind of "romanticism" they had. Congrats on trying to romanticize it.
It was just waking up next to the love of his life. For a brief moment, nothing else mattered, he was happy. Oops. Yeah, the relationship is problematic. But the soul was snatched when he woke up next to her, in the afterglow of sex, love, and contentment.
"You can't be lesbians on TV but you can own a cat together." I mean, Willow admitted it to Buffy and reaffirmed it to Tara last episode, so the subtext era of their relationship is gone. It's text now. ...Then again, calling some of their earlier scenes "sub"text is being very generous: "I couldn't stop thinking about last night, those spells we did...I hope you don't think I come over just for the spells? Because I like just hanging out with you and stuff too." "Of course! ...But you wanna do a spell. ;)"
It's really interesting you noticed Buffy didn't say “I love you” to Riley. Really, love for Spike? I understand love for James Marsters, but Spike? He is, like, the worst. And did you just forget Harmony's name?
@@migmit You can like a character as a character in a story, but not like that character as a person. There are many characters I absolutely love due to the role they play in a story or simply love how they are written because I love characters that I can try and dig deep into, but completely abhor their actions/behavior/personality as a "person". Despite Spike's horrible behavior, he's a wild card(I'm not the biggest Spike fan, but I do love me a wild card) , which means he keeps things interesting, and he amuses people. Doesn't mean they condone what he does by enjoying and loving the character itself...
@ Yeah, I hear you. That's kinda what I meant. Spike is a good character (although if I were to change one thing in the show, I'd remove him after S3), but a horrible person.
Drunk Giles is fun, though only due to the contrast. It's the rarity of it that makes it special.
The best part of watching reactions is the post commentary when I get to hear your theories and already know what's happening and what's to come. Plus getting to relive the whole "huh?" experience.
Socially oblivious is the term for Anya, thank you Mikey. She is oblivious to normal social behaviors. She may make others feel awkward be she has no hesitation about expressing what is on her mind.
Tara is socially awkward, she has to struggle to fit in and is afraid to interject into a conversation.
You will see these two develop in interesting ways.
Also, Buffy is the only one that Willow has told about her relationship with Tara...until now.
I love this episode. Spike is very insightful when it comes to the people around him. Since he can’t kill he can still do maximum damage and cause chaos with his words. Evil Spike is still a lot of fun. Giles in this episode is hilarious.
You know, I never actually thought of Buffy as being viewed/consider as "The Yokor Factor" to Riley(John Lennon) and The Initiative, but you're absolutely right. I don't know how I didn't catch that before. That's a great note...
👌🤓 She did nothing but they blame her
@@732ReviewCrew There is always a double meaning, or two ways of looking at the episode titles. Sometimes more. You hit on the "other" Yoko in this episode. That had never occurred to me. Good one.
The "Yoko factor" is that Spike makes each of the Scoobies question themselves and their own worth.
LOL included the Tony Robbins joke in the condensed edit and then stared it down refusing to laugh.
😭 I always include if it goes over our head. I googled him and understood
I love this episode because, to me, it hits on the climax of the theme of the season: the high school group failing to stay connected in college. It started in the first episode with Buffy feeling isolated, before the second episode showed her not being believed about her roomate, went onto issues concerning Riley and The Initiative, to Willow and Tara's struggles with Willow coming out, Xander not being in college, Giles feeling useless (as a watchers [which he got fired from] and a father figure) without a job. This episode was the boiling point. Spike didn't make a mess so much as opened the groups eyes to all that they've been ignoring and were in denial about since _The Freshman._
Buffy was angry at Angel and throwing hurtful words at him while down there. What she said about Riley and loving him might not be true, especially if she hasn't said it to him yet.
Socially awkward and socially oblivious are great terms for Tara and Anya.
There's a theory among a lot of fans (I'm not sure whether I agree) that Forrest was secretly in love with Riley, hence the clingy and jealous behaviour. This episode is one of my favs and I cannot wait for you to see the next two!
FoRiley!
Timeline of full acknowledgements of the Tara/Willow relationship
4x16 - Faith makes the joke about Willow not driving stick anymore.
4x16 - "I am you know. [....] Yours."
4x19 - Buffy learns that Willow is dating Tara. Which is perfectly fine, Willow.
4x20 - Oblivious Xander finds out.
I don't even remember Angel being in this. I guess it makes sense for the story to split him from Buffy and get him where he is at the end. Again, fun talk at the end. 100% Anya is social oblivious. . . and I love it too! She got the Cordelia job in the show once she moved over to Angel.
Enjoyed the reaction, discussion, & predictions. Love how the theme of the season is brought to a boil in this one. I also sometimes forget how funny this episode is. Looking forward to two last episodes of season 4, love both, and your reactions to them. We'll see if the Mike's words about bonds transcending everything comes true.
Some interesting parts in this episode, highlights are Angel and Riley acting like jilted teenagers in Buffy's room, and the smug smile Angel gives Riley when she says she needs to talk to Angel alone. Also Giles being drunk and telling Buffy 'you'll get your arse kicked'. Buffy really hurts Willow and Xander when she says 'I guess that's why there is now ancient prophecy of the chosen one and her friends' after all they have done for her, and she has done for them. Some excellent work by Spike setting all the friends against each other like a modern day Iago from Othello, there was foreshadowing for this in The Earshot episode when Buffy was reading the students mind re Othello Play. Giles playing Freebird is of course the highlight.
Cannot wait for season 5 🎉
The reason Willow came right out and said Tara was her girlfriend was that the writers had all though they'd made it really damn clear what was going on - but there were still tons of people who just didn't get it.
*cough* Mike. J/k. Lol.
Willow admitted the relationship to Buffy in the episode Oz came back. But only Buffy knew until now.
I always thought it seemed obvious that Giles' "bloody hell" was in response to Xander's cluelessness, not because the relationship was a surprise to himself. Giles probably noticed it quite some time ago.
@Mrs.Watcher I don't think Giles saw enough of them to have the faintest idea. Or Xander. Almost all of their relationship development has been in scenes where they were alone together, Tara's not been hanging out with the Scoobies for long at all (and is very shy, so she rarely speaks up) and Willow was actively hiding their relationship until she came out to Buffy last episode. It's obvious to us, but I think a lot of viewers forget that the other Scoobies haven't seen what we've seen.
@Talisguy I 41, prefer the head cannon that Giles is in a position that he is on the outside looking in with the Scoobies at this point. Noticing a lot, but not talking about it.
To be fair, Xander thought Buffy told Riley already because Riley said Biffy told him everything, so he assume she actually DID tell Riley everything already. Buffy left that part out. She didn't even tell him there even was clause to the curse at ALL, let alone "the perfect happiness clause" part of the story, which was a pretty big part of the story in even EXPLAINING how and why her vampire boyfriend with a soul went evil in the first place...
Also, remember that Buffy was purposely throwing Riley in Angel's face out of pettiness because of the way he spoke to her about . There was literally no reason to bring up Riley in that conversation, but she did to put it in his face about he she finally has someone she loves AND can trust, indicating that she could never actually trust Angel, and that he never understood her. Just like Angel was being petty to Riley in this episode, rubbing his relationship with Buffy in his face, and purposely antagonizing him.
I think kinda agree with Anya not being socially awkward. More so socially inappropriate through being socially unaware. Cordelia is also could be considered socially inappropriate due to her lack of awareness and tact. They're both socially inappropriate/unaware for different reasonings (Anya beinf a former 1000 year old demon and Cordelia being a spoiled rich girl who lacked being held accountable for her words) alrhough Cordelia DOES have more social awareness than Anya, but the lack of it very much still there. Despite who Xander goes for, there just may be a certain type he tends to end up with(he and Cordelia lasted almost a year, which A LOT for a high school relationship, and Anya's been here with Xander for most of the season). I would actually say that Xander is more socially awkward than Anya/Cordelia. Tara's socially awkward due to her lacking ability to socially communicate. Xander attempts to socially communicate but is also aware that he's constantly saying the wrong things or making social settings uncomfortable by their words/actions. Anya/Cordelia don't. He's just not really self concious about it like Tara...
The power of friendship
"BtVS" was one of the few, almost non-existent TV shows, with gay couples The 90's had a lot of interesting movies that depicted gay couples, but not TV shows; Homophobia was rampant and generalized and by Xander and Giles's reactions you can have a sense of those days. BtVS was loved also for the away it advanced our visibility.
It's not a floppy disk drive in Adam's chest, it's a mini-disc (data) drive.
Why am I *not* surprised that Xander and Riley completely misunderstood Angel's curse? Probably because they're little boys, and their only idea of "perfect happiness" is sex. If it was sex, he would have lost his soul during the act, not after while he was holding Buffy.
Because that's literally the only evidence that they have in regard to it. And it's not just them that think that. Most people do...
Of course it was sex. But it wasn't merely the sex act. If it was just the closeness of loving and holding Buffy, it would have happened long before Surprise and happened again after he returned. If it wasn't the sex, why did Buffy and Angel talk several times about their not being allowed to have sex again? Whether the pain starts right at the point of orgasm or shortly afterward, it IS caused by sex with the woman he loves.
@@johnmoreland6089 true, but as we've seen (without giving spoilers), it's not just the sex. It's the intimacy of the act with someone you love, which brings true happiness that sex alone can't do. If he had sex with that actress who wanted to be turned into a vampire, it wouldn't have caused him to lose his soul (although he did temporarily experience the chemically induced sensation of losing his soul because she drugged him).
If it was because he was holding her, then he would have lost it anytime he was holding her. Then they would have actually written a scene where she was really sad or something and he would have comforted her and she would have fallen asleep and then he would have lost it. And they would be afraid to hug next time, not have sex. They wrote sex, after sex realization, while he was thinking about what happened. Not any "I Love You" was able to have the same affect on him. There are tons of real romantic subplots that could have been used if they wanted it, but they didn't choose to. This isn't called "being little boys," this is called reading a plot when it didn't fully realize what it did. Don't gaslight people when you don't like what they saw there.
It's sometimes funny to watch someone start to dodge, coming up with different versions of why it happened after sex.
That adult man was the happiest after he had sex with a 17 year old that he first saw when she was 15. This is what kind of "romanticism" they had. Congrats on trying to romanticize it.
It was just waking up next to the love of his life. For a brief moment, nothing else mattered, he was happy. Oops.
Yeah, the relationship is problematic. But the soul was snatched when he woke up next to her, in the afterglow of sex, love, and contentment.
❤🧡💛💚💙💜
"You can't be lesbians on TV but you can own a cat together."
I mean, Willow admitted it to Buffy and reaffirmed it to Tara last episode, so the subtext era of their relationship is gone. It's text now.
...Then again, calling some of their earlier scenes "sub"text is being very generous:
"I couldn't stop thinking about last night, those spells we did...I hope you don't think I come over just for the spells? Because I like just hanging out with you and stuff too."
"Of course!
...But you wanna do a spell. ;)"
It's really interesting you noticed Buffy didn't say “I love you” to Riley.
Really, love for Spike? I understand love for James Marsters, but Spike? He is, like, the worst.
And did you just forget Harmony's name?
He’s such a fun character though.
We forget her name thank you. I will also say we don't love Spike the way we love Buffy, we enjoy the chaos he brings
@@migmit You can like a character as a character in a story, but not like that character as a person. There are many characters I absolutely love due to the role they play in a story or simply love how they are written because I love characters that I can try and dig deep into, but completely abhor their actions/behavior/personality as a "person". Despite Spike's horrible behavior, he's a wild card(I'm not the biggest Spike fan, but I do love me a wild card) , which means he keeps things interesting, and he amuses people. Doesn't mean they condone what he does by enjoying and loving the character itself...
@ Yeah, I hear you. That's kinda what I meant. Spike is a good character (although if I were to change one thing in the show, I'd remove him after S3), but a horrible person.