@@SpecialBlanket yes boundaries are for yourself, as in they're for what you are comfortable with. So if your boundary is that you don't want to hug strangers, then you don't have hug strangers
THIISSSSS! I’ve never understood the logic of “it just comes with the territory”. Okay so becoming popular makes you a commodity for others to consume??? To be dehumanized?? I think people need to take a good long look at what entertains them 🙃😓
She has literally started a WAVE with other artists setting boundaries. Absolutely amazing. I LOVE to see it. Anyone who finds it rude can kick rocks. Celebrities have a right to privacy and to be off the clock when they choose!!!!! ❤❤❤
It's kinfa scary to me that people who otherwisr are interested in social justice don't get it when a young queer woman draws a boundary and asks them to treat her better.
I actually think it started with Doja Cat. Doja had the exact same stance like a year ago and everyone started demonizing her, and she took that and was like "yeah, sure, I'm a devil. What else?" There might have been someone before, but the first person I remember having started this conversation really was Doja.
Australia has just passed a law giving workers the right to disconnect. You don't have to answer calls or emails after work, you finish work when you finish and don't need to have anything to do with work outside of work. This is a basic that I think everyone should get, regardless of what their job is. Chappell deserves this too. The backlash feels super "but what was she wearing" victim-blaming. No one invites stalking, harrassment etc, not by what they were wearing, not by what their job is, not by anything they do or don't do.
Funny you mention that. My Mom's husband grew up in the Commonwealth of Australia, and he constantly harasses me. Luckily I'm super aggressive and can easily get him to back off.
Maybe it’s just because I’m fully an adult now, but if she says she doesn’t wanna be acknowledged in public on the microscopic chance I did see her I would be content just being like “yeah I saw Chappel Roan isn’t that cool”
literally! when i was like 13, i saw these two guys that made a viral dance at my local fair, i told my friend who they were and we moved on. it’s that simple.
I get so livid about the "I pay your salary" narrative. Like no you don't. You at best pay a record company who has a contract with the artist. I really wish Eliza had expounded on how much artists actually make on Spotify. $0.003 to $0.005 per stream.
Your comment caused 'Who the Hell Is Edgar?' To immediately start replay in my brain starting right from the bridge lol. ( I'm not mad though it's a great song) "0.003, give me two years and your dinner will be free, gas station champagne is on me, Edgar can. not. pay. bills. for. me."
right like the only thing that comes close to paying their salary is actually buying tickets to their concerts. and even then, ticketmaster, venues, staff and miscellaneous costs like gas and lodging still take up MASSIVE chunks of the revenue, sometimes leaving artists with a very low profit margin, sometimes even a loss.
And they get a service in return through streaming, and live performances. That's how purchasing something works. People don't get pissed at the company that makes yogurt when they run out of it in their fridge, why would you expect something outside of what you purchased from an artist?
This! Because you paid for an album or you paid to see a show. Once the album is owned or the show is over, the artist has fulfilled their end of the contract. You didn't pay for an all access pass to a meet and greet and photo opportunities whenever you want, why would you expect that?
46 years old italo-argentinean lesbian here. I'm reliving every minute of my repressed homo childhood and teenager years except this time i get to finally enjoy what it would have felt to be represented by a pop artist and i'm living for it. I love she understood the assignment and screams what it is to have agency over her body and career. Wish her the fucking best.
she has already been stalked, her family's been stalked. a person sexual assaulted her. she more than enough right even before all that to set boundaries. and the people who hate her or make fun of her for it just hate women.
@@jeremysanders9336 she shouldn't have to live with being stalked and harrassed and having her boundaries crossed because people like her art, you absolute clown
"Thats the way it is, deal with it" has been used to silence calls for change much more serious than this, i was surprised honestly to see so many young, queer and nonconforming people use it against Chappell. Celebrities from every niche are getting closer to their fans via the internet, and that should make it easier to see them as people.
Had a guy say this when I was talking about the awfulness of actresses being expected to perform sexual favours for roles. People will excuse ANYTHING.
So often that kind of entitlement comes from resentment that's rooted in envy. It's shocking to me that American culture doesn't usually acknowledge envy as a driving force behind the way celebrities are treated by social media and the public. The evil eye isn't a supernatural thing, it's just the natural outcome of being observed.
No because I believe this is the root of it all. You're so right and this is something I thought about too. People hate her and other celebrities because they want what they have, plain and simple. The attitude "Well if I HAD what YOU HAVE I'd NEVER complain, you should be GRATEFUL" is DRIPPING I resentment and distain.
Everyone talks about how we should be more kind to famous people when it's too late (eg. Britney, Amy Whinehouse etc). Why not be kind and respect their boundaries before it goes too far? It is not unreasonable for her to have a life outside of work.
I actually like that Chappell said this. I tend to idolise celebrities and totally would've come up to them on the street. Now I'll either think twice about it or only interact with them during meet and greets and concerts. She really made me think of my own behaviour.
Thats great to be looking at your own behavior like that. I definitely have the tendency towards idolizing people on UA-cam, podcast hosts and such. It took me seeing this kind of studf to check myself too. That "being called out" discomfort is good, even though it can be humbling.
Good on you, recognizing the improvable aspects of your behavior rather than sticking to your guns out of pride. It's not easy. The kind of clear cut statement Chappell made often tends to radicalize fans in both directions, so I'm glad to see it's actually bringing about a positive change of views in some people.
It reminds me of Yvie Oddly on Drag Race. She's chronically ill and struggled to keep up with meeting fans, so put out a public message saying she won't take photos out of meet and greet. She had a load of criticism for this from fans and other huge drag queens. As someone who's also chronically ill, the whole thing felt super frustrating.
I don’t get why this is even a question. It’s the chicken egg question only obvious. Without HER work, her talent, her blood sweat and tears she’d be nothing, not the fans. Roan is sharing her gift with the world already. She an ARTIST, not your therapist or lover. . Everyone is so self involved they don’t even know how to act . If you see Chappell Roan at a restaurant, leave her the fuck alone. Be your own damn hero. Nobody owes you anything for making art you love.
Not really though, plenty of famous people have arguably no talent to speak of. And chapel roan has been producing stuff with her talent for years but hasn't gotten famous till recently. So it's just a fact that talent alone isn't the whole story
@@439801RS I think this goes to the "industry plant" accusation. Which is only asked in comparison to her contemporaries being Taylor Swift, Ariana Grande & Charli XCX, who have all been superstars for 10+ plus years now. Roan's rise has had the same rapidity as Billie Eilish; a consistent gain in fans over 4-5 years. Good Luck Babe is Chappell's Bad Guy moment.
Maybe it's a matter of size, but I recall Doja Cat explicitly telling fans that she isn't their friend and regularly losing followers because of it. It's good for this to be brought more into the conversation again and hopefully gets more ears this time around.
The way she went about it, I get why some fans would be mad but she wasn’t really wrong there Now when she posted herself in that Ne0-N*zi t-shirt? Nah fuck her she deserved to be criticized for that, I ain’t giving her time of day after that
my personal opinion is that doja shaved her head and made it impossible to reason w her because she ruined her own rep that way. you know how the media views women w shorter hair. just look at those we praise and their hair and the fall off of those we used to adore before they shaved their head
@@1DerangedMortaldoja did not ruin her reputation, she is simply going through a phase that will either push her into becoming a better artist or destroy her career. It’s her choice or her label’s choice.
@@dhsf5937 you don't get mad a plumber because they only want money for their service, it's no different with artists. An artist provides you with content and performance in exchange for money. It's not that hard to follow.
I'm so proud of her. Like she said she doesn't care if it's considered normal, she isn't tolerating it. I hope more celebrities follow suit. Our whole celebrity culture here is sick and could do with a change.
From my perspective it seems like she's cherry picking the parasocial behaviour she finds acceptable. Is it then surprising fans are getting confused on where her boundaries are? Not saying fans don't still hold part of the responsibility there, but so does the artist
I can empathize with the gut reaction of like, here's the rest of us trying to make rent and there's a rich white person complaining about how hard it is to be famous. Like I can see where the irritation can come from. But then you put yourself in her shoes and it would be absolutely exhausting and frightening to be in that situation and you realize everyone deserves boundaries.
Also, she was literally assaulted. Like forcefully kissed. Had her family stalked by a fan. Stalked by a guy, berated by him when she said no to him hounding her for an autograph. He was taken away by airport security and he creepily turned up at another airport when she landed. If I was subjected to that, it would very viscerally make me feel incapable of differentiating between people with 'good' intentions and those who are messed up. I get when men say things that are misogynistic about this situation but when non-binary/queer people/women/poc, who are more regularly exposed to the dangers of violence aren't empathetic it truly astounds me.
@@Highlandslowlands Please don't "get" men being misogynists. Just like Chappell said, just because it is widespread does not mean it is normal. I don't mean it in a rude way, I just want to say that this bs should not be normalized.
@@TheGamer2001 ofcourse I won't accept it and it angers me terribly when men are misogynistic. Just meant that it some how feels particularly upsetting when the misogyny comes from within the same communities that experience harm from it.
32:06 People conflate consumerism and ownership. The illusion of ownership stems from the "consumerism as identity" ideology that is so prevalent today.
This is what I’ve been thinking about fame! It seems like celebrity worship is not merely envy based (because we don’t treat business/ media moguls with the same disrespect) but ownership based. We have not yet spiritually been able to as a society separate a celebrity selling a persona as product from the consumer having ownership over that celebrity’s physical body. We also conflate social media interaction with personal attention.
It's more like people conflate the ownership of product consumption with the non-ownership of content consumption. Talking about the "illusion of ownership" feels a bit risky and WEF-esque to me. If I buy a bottle of Coke, I own that bottle. If I buy an album, I (should) own that album and thereby have a right to listen to it. But I have no right to the creator. It's more about people misunderstanding content creators as products. It's about dehumanisation rather than identity ideology. Sure, "consumerism as identity" is the core that manifests a desperate need to consume more, but the issue regarding celebrity is people mixing up the right to consume a product vs the right to consume a person (i.e. their time and attention)
Then you have companies that can afford to launch projects themselves, but instead do a Backerkit getting their fans to fund it as investors. Then the fans just get the product and no ownership or profit. It is a messed up world.
@@francookie9353the length of the yt replies I usually end up deleting out of laziness tell me I need to start a podcast someday 😂 long story short- I agree with most of what you said but find the nature of human vs inanimate ownership more complex.
I only found out when I couldn’t buy a pride ticket this summer bc she was performing (I was kinda pissed bc I didn’t even know who she was). And all my gay friends SHAMED me for not knowing. However most of music I listen to is Eurovision or Soundtracks/bands that make music for anime (both Japanese and Chinese).
I'm 42. I've heard her name before and I know she's a big deal but that's about it. I'm talking about Chappell Roan and Donna Summer. The way he said "*pause*.... oooolder gay men" made me feel like I should get my affairs in order before I walk into the sea 😭
The part Eliza said about how we`re better off just texting our friend that we thought the celeb`s outfit was ugly soothed my nerves and soul in a way I wasnt expecting. Like why are we doing the mental gymnastics to avoid two truths; 1) we don`t always like what other people do 2) politeness and kindness both dictate that we are still on the hook not to be foul about it.
Was looking for a comment like this, that part really stuck out to me too! She’s so correct that we can all be a little ugly sometimes, and finding a healthy or at very least a private setting to release those feelings and energy is important.
Social media is an ego-stroking machine. That's literally its main purpose. It's crabs in a bucket all pulling each other down to try and win, and I'm glad I deleted my Facebook years ago and will never be on TikTok-likes.
I love that we’re having this dialogue and I don’t blame Chappell Roan one bit for asserting boundaries. Fame doesn’t entitle fans to terrorize their fave. Great episode y’all.
Chappell Roan is like the Erin Brockovich of pop msuic and I LOVE her for it. I hope she doesn't become some sanitized and compliant/boring celebrity. I love her raw, direct, and brash approach to fame
great points made here and I applaud Chappell for speaking out. However, I think we have to be careful about false equivalencies. Britney Spears was working and being the family breadwinner from the time she was a child and headlining a massive tour employing tons of people when she was still a teenager. That's a whole other level of being driven to the brink.
How her family treated Britney from a young age and how the public treated her were two different types of abuse she suffered, and honestly there are more than just similarities in the public treatment of Chappell. She is simply calling it out earlier cos have we learned nothing about how the public ruined Britney? Everyone needs that reminder
Britney is like the stage 4, most terminal extent to which fans and paparazzi impose on her life. Just because it wasn't the most extreme e example doesn't mean the principles differ. He fans are still exhibiting fight or flight inducing behavior (by being inappropriate), and they shouldn't. I hope it's never as bad for her as it was/ is for Britney, but I also don't want it bad for her at all.
@@marslara people just say this but dont get off. I’ve been off for a whole year. Tried twitter again before the ban in my country and holy… how can something be so boring, overstimulating and annoying at the same time?
@@userjoao i don't quite mean from your own wishes. I mean there are tons of ways OTHER people have access to you all the time especially as a celebrity
that’s why i looooove the way the country i’m from handles “celebrities”. people usually leave them alone in public, it’s actually considered kind of rude to approach them if it’s not specifically desired.
@@deathby1kslimes945 I'm from Uruguay and it's the same here. But also it's a small country so we don't have celebrities on the same level as Chappell Roan 😅 But people here are generally more reserved and distant interacting with strangers so that's part of it. If a stranger touches my arm I'm calling 911
@@deathby1kslimes945switzerland! a lot of international “stars” enjoy staying here for that reason i think. when you’re going on a holiday to the mountains the locals leave you alone, for example. tina turner even lived here and apparently was totally fine running errands or going to the bakery etc haha
TLDR; The “she wants fame, not what comes with it” argument is also rooted in jealousy, so folks can feel better about their own lack of social equity, self-esteem, etc. Their belief is it's unfair that she "has it all," and if they don't get to have fame, money, or self-love/care, then neither does she without unrelenting sacrifice. Long-form: The jealousy can stem from transactional love: it can stem from wanting admiration and feeling unloved (and therefore jealous she has it and they feel she “takes it for granted”), or feeling constantly duty bound to have no boundaries (ie love equals violated boundaries), and are jealous she gets to put down the boundaries they feel they’re not entitled to. Jealousy also stems from increasing social inequity and inability to make ends meet; that jealousy makes it hard to see why her responses are indeed reasonable when quality of life has become quite precarious for so many. She and other celebrities are escapism, and no one wants their escapism to demand humanity or to have complexity when life is so unrelentingly complex already. However, folks need to understand that dehumanizing someone will not make us feel better the way we think it will; in fact, it exacerbates our self-hatred, and exacerbates our inequity because we’re focusing blame on a pop star rather than demanding changes from those who actually can improve our quality of life. It’s easy fast food to attack her, rather than sit with feelings of hopelessness or incompetence. They can dress it up however they wish ("she thinks she's better than everyone"), but at the end of the day, their disdain and anger is simply a reaction from their envious, insecure, unloved child parts. To be clear, trashing a hotel room or being rude to waitstaff is a lack of humility in fame that warrants admonition. Wanting privacy and uninterrupted grocery runs is not. Additionally, if a stranger stares at me, talks to me, follows me, tries touching me, I’m conditioned to tell myself I'm overreacting AND to be alarmed. This is true for many women and minoritized folks, and I assume it doesn’t magically disappear when you become famous; it probably exponentially amplifies. You could be a normal person coming up to her, or you could have a weapon to harm her - she has no way of knowing which. If I were her, I'd have a no tolerance policy and take the "overreacting/ungrateful" reputation, rather than end up in a dangerous situation due to gaslighting myself.
Right? Harassment is not part of a job description lol. Like if someone gets harassed working in an office they can go to HR but she's supposed to do nothing and people who do this should never be chastised? People need to get their heads out of their bums.
Excellent analysis. I don't know Chappell or her music, something my daughter tells me I need to change about myself, but I get the feeling just from this podcast that her goal is to be a successful musician. That is different than celebrity.
I get that fans have unfairly high expectations of Chappell but expecting her to show up for a tour date is just totally justified expectations, they were mad she cancelled it last minute when they already spent a lot of money on hotels and travel expenses. This said, i loved Eliza's commentary here and you continue to bring on great guests to your podcast
I understand being disappointed and perhaps upset, but clearly this was an amazing opportunity and a difficult choice to make. Casting her as ungrateful and entitled because of this seems unwarranted. What if we felt excited for her getting this opportunity?
@@mkmason7727 my question in all of this is why did the VMA's invite her so suddendly and late? Like, do they usually do this? If so, this must have happened with other artists before too, no? How did their fans react when they had to cancel to go to the VMA's?
@@liaspooked4980I don't know if the VMAs make it a habit to book people relatively last-minute, but it makes sense in context with Chappell when you remember that Lollapalooza switched her and Kesha's stages two weeks out from the festival because of the crowd she was anticipated to draw (and the numbers still surpassed their expectations). Her rise has been meteoric and the VMAs wanted to capitalise on that
@@mkmason7727She canceled the Berlin Show two days before it was supposed to happen. I think that is inappropriate, especially after I saw that people saw she was featured as an act for the VMAs weeks before that. People have a right to question that decision, they took vacation days, traveled to Berlin, booked hotels and other stuff. The way she and her team handled this was unprofessional and I think that’s something she should take accountability for. If you make a point that you see your performances as a job and that you want to take that in a professional manner, you should also uphold the contracts you made with the people who want to watch your performance. It’s her right to set boundaries and I think Fan culture is going too far but I do think she made a mistake in the way she communicated the cancelling of the European shows.
Your commitment to providing context even when it seems like everyone would have it is one of the things that I love most about this podcast. Too few culture commentators are willing to do this.
The "she wants fame but not what comes with it" line to me sounds like the victim blaming of SA. The "she was asking for it wearing that outfit" lines.
The social conversation is partly set by celebrity culture. So Chappell setting her boundaries, compartmentalising her work vs personal life, signals the fact that everyone deserves healthy work life balance. Good for her!
the 2022 bowery ballroom concert was one of the best i’ve ever been to. the fans there were so respectful and joyful both to chappell and others. nothing she does and her boundaries could ever make me hate her.
what fans are entitled to: nothin. what chappel is entitled to: her own bloody life, space, privacy and dignity. super frustrating that folks don’t get that.
absolutely. all of these podcast topics are important for people who aren’t chronically online to hear, and assuming that they already know the premise is missing out on a big potential audience.
Her Tiny Desk is honestly the best one yet and to me, what ultimately cemented her in the public eye. I am OBSESSED with how TD constraints challenge artists - her paired-down take on the music, the incredible makeup/styling and authentic banter created one of my favorite live performances captured on video. If you were there, you truly witnesseed the magic of music and connection ❤❤❤ I wish Chappell nothing but respect!!!
I'm older, and I used TikTok during the lockdown. It felt weirdly more intimate than any other platform I have been on. People looking into your eyes and talking what feels directly to you feels SO personal. I hope Chappell Roan and her fans find a balance.
Same, im older as well and the directness of the videos of people directly talking into the camera freaked me out. Imagine being exposed to videos like that allll the time ... that'll mess with a person.
I'm for one are happy that you describe the people you talk about because I don't know about them. I'm fairly online but a bit older! And I absolutely love these podcasts and I wouldn't mind 1.5h daily!
When it comes to the VMA's and cancelling her shows, I think some people are forgetting that Chappell is not making the sole decisions about the shows she does...she has a deal with a record company. They're going to have significant pull when it comes to the performances she participates in. Doing Lolla and the VMAs doesn't mean she should resign herself to stalking and being treated like an object rather than a human being.
It’s exactly why Gaga spoke on this in 2009 with her vma performance bleeding on stage and being hung into the air she was showing what you guys did to Marylin Monroe and a lot of other famous female stars in the past everyone always want to see the downfall of someone famous and watch them fall on their faces people love to see the rise of artist of an artist but the especially love to see them fail and stan twitter really has aided to this issue that’s been happening to female stars for DECADES.
it‘s just crazy how people think that artists owe them anything… in the end, you buying their music, is still just a transaction. Of course it‘s on a deeper level bc people can resonate with it but that doesn‘t mean you get to force an interaction/relationship onto someone just bc you like their music (which is a one-sided thing). I would NEVER have the arrogance of walking up to someone i don‘t know and ask them for a hug or whatever. It‘s just weird and creepy. Artists are human beings and they come with boundaries. You don‘t get to decide what those boundaries are just bc you like their music
I find it fascinating how visceral people's reaction to her not being interested in celebrity has been. People take it for granted that fame is to be welcomed with nothing but gratitude. It's very refreshing to see a musician who is not in the business for the celebrity of it but for the platform to share their art with as many people as possible. They tried to do to Mitski what they are now doing to Chappell and Mitski did not relent, very cool to see Chappel so adamant on waiting the craze out as well so she can just do her thing and chill. I wholeheartedly support her on that.
Honestly healthy. People saying she “can’t handle fame” is so stupid. None of the rest of us have to do our jobs while not at work. Chappell isn’t making a radical request here, famous people deserve common courtesy too. Having money and status while it changes a lot of things doesn’t change your basic humanity and doesn’t make your personal time a commodity for consumption.
I'm not even 2 minutes in and I had to pause to process the ick of when people say "choose your fans". SHE DOESN'T KNOW YOU! Stan culture needs to be dismantled, some people can't handle being fans of people to a normal degree.
As someone who is a queer woman, I cannot even fathom how she must feel, she's getting harassed x1000 (SA, Stalking etc) Harassment from LGBT+ phobic people and much more, as a woman who has been catcalled and gets very emotional about it, I could not live a day in her shoes, I would want to kill myself if I was ever in that light, people are so dumb honestly, this is how Chappell is just never gonna go outside anymore, but she's gonna shut off her media stuff aside for shows and stuff, and everyones gonna be pissed off, and tbh I hope she does that because I want to watch these psychos get what's coming for them because I am so done with people feeling entitled to women's bodies famous or not.
In this conversation, I just want to give Doja Cat her flowers for also being an of-the-moment female artist who is pushing the culture to be more sane, more humane, and more civil
about the fan to anti-fan pipeline: the opposite of love is not hate it’s apathy. thats why its so easy for people to flip the intense connection is the same but instead of admiration it’s contempt.
(like the rest of the podcast) this was such a great discussion, but I do think you missed the mark in thinking of Chappell as the “patient zero” for the line she’s drawing with her fans in the 2020’s; the Internet had just as loud an outrage for Doja Cat’s behavior towards her fans post- Planet Her, and just like Matt mentioned everyone conveniently forgot when Chappell made her TikTok; I think it would definitely serve today’s fandom culture to keep in mind that these artists to deserve privacy and respect, so everyone is better off
I'm not the biggest fan of Doja Cat because of some of the shit she's done but she still deserves to have her boundaries respected. I'm glad more artists are speaking up and setting boundaries so I hope that this sort of invasive parasocial fan behavior can become a thing of the past this decade.
Glad to say I got my Chappell badge back in 2018! Met her and supported her for years she’s hella funny, a hard worker, and extremely talented. Knew the first time I saw her live she was gonna be huge
The opening Chappell Roan... ... ... period. joke made so much more sense than listening to the first half on spotify. I thought my headphones were broken!
i have to disagree a bit on the cancellation of the shows. i think it's wholly understandable for people to be annoyed by it. no one likes to hear news about an artist cancelling or showing up grossly late to shows, and it's a bummer when it happens to you. i've been going to shows for 20+ years, there's a pact there of mutual respect between the audience and the artists. cancelling, especially for a televised appearance, is crummy and warrants some criticism. i don't think it's inherently wrong to push back on chappell roan/her team on that. but the internet, like always, overreacts and blows things way out of proportion.
Chappell Roan doesn’t deserve the deranged folks stalking and harassing her. She has commented numerous times that she doesn't seek fame and is having a hard time with it. But she keeps opening her mouth expressing opinions on politics etc then recoiling when folks respond to her unfavourably. She plays the "Don't look at me (but please look at me)" attention seeking game and then plays the victim when she gets attention that she doesn't like. She didn't have to say anything- could keep making art (her word, not mine) and avoid making public statements about anything other than her art. She has now cancelled further appearances to look after her mental health. I hope she spends the time away from the spotlight looking after herself - however I suspect the time away will be brief because as much as she says she doesn't want the attention, she'll be gagging to post some kind of nonsense on Tiktok or Instagram or X just to get a reaction... and then complain about all the supposed unwanted attention yet again.
This is another moment when we need to evaluate the origins of modern fame. Fame was created to make money for companies. It used to be that the culture primarily turned people into symbols so that fame could be converted into power, but then, they turned people into products so that fame could be turned into money instead. And, as usual, that money attracted a secondary market of journalism, which further codified that access to celebrities was equal to money and/or value. This is why so many people treat an encounter with a celebrity with the same grasping greed as they would someone tossing fifties into the air on a public sidewalk. Even if you can't really sell that selfie with Tom Hanks to a tabloid for actual money, people feel like they got something of actual monetary value "for free." The unconscious internal calculation is literally something like "well you're not doing anything with that monetizable commodity (aka your face/body/whole deal) in this moment, so let ME get a hit of that value, bruh!" We all gotta retrain our brains to stop thinking of your favorite influencer seen in public as like, a dropped wallet with no ID, and more like the adage of "you wouldn't snatch cash out of someone's hand as they were paying for something at the store, because you know it's not for you."
i only learned about her existence very recently and i still haven’t listened to a single chapel roan song, BUT i did check out Eliza’s music after this epsiode ended instead and it’s an instant follow from me. girl, your music is such a vibe! into my playlists you go! ❤
Andy Warhol said in the future everyone would be famous for 15 minutes. That was updated in the early Web 2.0 days to “everyone will be famous to 15 people”. I think there’s a more nuanced version that’s needed now
Matt! I'm a relatively new listener to your podcast and I really, really appreciate your insight and analysis. Your perspective is helpful, funny, and just really fucking wonderful-- I'm stoked the algorithm pointed me to you. Eliza, you are a total badass move to bail on TikTok because you didn't like how it was affecting your songwriting--- huge respect from a fellow musician. ❤️
just found this pod and I love it. You two are so good. I think the discourse that Chapel has started is so important and it’s really forcing people to examine their para social relationships and set boundaries. I love that for us.
I like many performer's music, but I don't want to know them as a person. As a listener/ fan I get to choose that. When the performer admits they don't have the energy to devote personal time to the entire population of a mid-sized country and still have the ability to do life things, they're branded as selfish and ungrateful. It's clearly an impossible accommodation when phrased that way, yet everyone wants to be that exception that hung out and got the photo. I'm glad that Chappell Roan has helped to once again highlight the weird and invasive ways the public puts individuals on a pedestal and interacts with fame, even if it's not a new conversation. I'm old enough to remember the early 00s when paparazzi were considered "out of control" and needed to be stopped from hounding celebrities in to potentially lethal situations, and now "fan culture" increasingly feels like that.
Maybe I'm just too Minnesotan, but I cannot fathom the audacity required to approach a celebrity in a grocery store or whatever. Like, oh my god, just let them fucking run their errands in peace!
The tough thing for many celebrities is that they wish to court publicity when it advances their purposes, while shunning publicity when it does not. Perhaps the public ought not be faulted if its members have difficulty, at any given time, determining the location of that seemingly ever-shifting line.
But as a human being Chappell Roan deserves the same respect we would show to someone else and just respect boundaries. Just because someone is famous doesn’t give the fans the right to breach his/her/their privacy. At the end of the day their job is to only provide entertainment through their work and not encourage this type of parasocial behaviour, they are just fellow humans who create content to entertain ppl and shouldn’t be idolised and worshipped.
@@albedo-sama9778if you want to be a famous musician people are gonna talk to you. If you invite them to be close to you on Tiktok or Instagram people are gonna talk to you. Crying bc people are asking for pictures is insane when these are the people that are the reason your record label pays you. Without fans no record label. Without record label no money. People can deny all they want that fans don’t pay the bills but at the end of the day a famous and rich musician has a lot of fans and an unknown and poor musician has no fans. Obviously stalking and other stuff is insane and crosses way too many lines but wanting to be famous musician includes people recognizing you. If she likes music she should have become a music teacher or something like that instead
I appreciate you guys taking the time to explain who she is and her origin story. I'm a little bit older than you guys (apparently older than I realized when Matt mentioned he wasn't born until 1999ish!) and I'm not on Tik Tok, so I had been hearing her name on a radio morning show occasionally but didn't know anything about her until people started coming out with videos reacting to that TikTok. The one video I watched had the person mispronouncing her name and I was kind of like, "Okay, cool, someone else who didn't know who this was." I think you guys bring up great points about letting celebrities be able to clock out, essentially. I think social media helps blur the lines a bit because now we get to have access to what people are doing all the time and some celebrities do choose to share random things about their daily lives. On the flipside, social media lets celebrities speak more directly and give their side of a story, whereas the celebrities who were being mistreated by paparazzi in the 2000's wouldn't have had as many opportunities to do so. I also found myself thinking about how there is some website that lets people track where Taylor Swift's private jet is, which feels both weird and potentially dangerous to me.
Thinking about a celebrity as a worker who on the street is 'off the clock' was really eye opening for me. I hadn't thought of it in that context, so while I agreed with the sentiment of letting celebrities do their own thing I struggled for it to slot into the expectation of my own behaviour. Weirdly, this analogy really put it in perspective for me. I've never met anyone really famous, I certainly have at least one actor I would struggle to be normal around and it sucks because the last thing I would ever want to do is make someone uncomfortable- especially someone whose work I really admire and respect. Hearing you guys talk about how even positive praise can be overwhelming was really helpful. I hope I can be self aware enough and empathetic enough that if I ever do meet someone famous I can just be chill and treat them like a normal person.
Can I just say I discovered your channel via the various Rowling videos (thanks for those by the way), but have since become an addict. Your videos are just a joy to watch/listen to. Much like Contrapoints, you'll post a video about something I have no knowledge it interest in and yet I'll want to watch it anyway!
I'm that millenial mom who's past 35 but not yet 40, grew up a scene kid plugged into Why?, CocoRosie, Cat Power and Devendra Banhart that now listens to music on the daily commute to work and rediscovers the 80s with my kids (who are very into Madonna, actually). I have heard of Chappell Roan but hadn't listened to her music nor thought about her in any way. Thank you Matt and Eliza for keeping me educated ✌️😘
I think an interesting contrast in parasocial boundary establishment would be Doja Cat. Both in delivery and reception, it’s curious to see the differences between Chappell Roan v Doja a little over a year apart
Maybe it's because I am in my late twenties with my full frontal lobe and have been in fandom spaces for most of my life but I feel like the idea of celebrity, fame, and parasocial attitude has morphed into this monster of "your job is to entertain me, be my role model, and be available to me at all times" while also "you are a celebrity, who cares if you are uncomfortable with the fame I have given you?" Not understanding that most of these people probably look at their art as their job and the fame/being widely known is the price they have to pay in order to "make it." Celebrity is unnatural to the human experience, particularly in the way that it is exists in 2024. I also have a coin of being an early Chappell Roan fan. It was sometime in 2021 where California was in my Discover Weekly. I sent it to a few friends of mine and I was like this song is amazing why doesn't this artist have more songs? When she was first beginning to promote the Midwest Princess tour last fall, I remember pre sale being about $30 at a local venue. One of my biggest regrets is not getting tickets (undiagnosed ADHD brain) because when the concert finally came around, the resale tickets were like $300.
There needs to be an institutionalized rehab for people addicted to social media. Many of them are experiencing a break from reality and it’s ruining our society in many sad ways.
Imagine everywhere you went, whether going out with friends or going to pick up a coffee or simply going for a walk, someone recognizes you and asks for a picture….and then gets MAD if you say no?? Ohhhh I’d kms not gonna lie 🙃
The view from your window is always so calming and comforting to see in the background, I love it lol! It adds a really cozy vibe (and a less "sterile" one that some breadtube videos/podcast sets have)
I can remember when Team 10's address would constantly get leaked and kids & their parents would show up to Jake Paul's house unannounced, demanding autographs and photos and even (or especially) the parents would get so aggressive about how they "deserved" it because "he'd be nothing without his fans".. even though I can't stand him, I still felt sorry for him and understood how unhinged that behavior was. It baffles me that grown adults see nothing wrong with this kind of behavior..
1. Matt's shirt has the same pattern as one of my late grandfather's polos, and that makes me happy. 2. Really hope other celebrities back Roan up and post similar things. 3. I don't know anything about Eliza, but I think Matt may want to accept that he is a celebrity. Maybe with a lowercase c, but I think it counts. Remember when Lindsay Ellis said she wasn't a celebrity? She is. The bar is lower now, and I think if strangers are coming up to you unprompted saying, "Omg your work is amazing," more than once in, like, a year, I think you're a celebrity. Like, if people are going up to Matt and saying this more than once during the year, he is just as famous as my relative who is in the traditional entertainment industry (writer, actor, producer, approached in my late grandmother's nursing home when my brother was something like 9).
As a queer woman who is apparently very "straight coded" in the algorithm despite feverishly listening to girl in red, king princess, hayley kiyoko, etc....I dont feel like the queer community can claim investment rights. Chappell has given so much and supported the queer community so much and statistically, didnt explode until Coachella when she was presented to a huge, multifaceted audience. I heard of her because I clicked on an "espresso" youtube mix and hot to go was part of it. Did I immediately go feral? Yes - but did the queer community "make" her? Doubtful.
I saw Mitski last weekend, and I like how it's very obvious in her art that it's a performance. She's acting. She described herself on stage as a 'sad clown', or the Shakespearean poignant fool, and I think that really brings the bread-and-circus aspect of fame into the spotlight. For an hour or two, she is the dancing monkey for us, and then she goes back to being a normal human being. All the world's a stage in the world of fame, et cetera.
Nothing but proud of Chapelle for putting the line in the sand, celebrities deserve to feel like real people who aren’t objects for public consumption.
Eliza articulated things so clearly. Every episode of this podcast is a joy in how it brings in people who have lived experiences centred around the subject. It's just so RIGHT ❤
both of you are very well articulated. thank you for this episode. i will definitely check out eliza’s music, it feels super nice to hear an artist who’s able to critically examine the culture. thanks guys!
My only comment is that "working as a cashier in a donut shop" scans perfectly with "You were working as a waitress in a cocktail bar" in Don't You Want Me by the Human League
I really appreciate your interview and conversation style. It's so easy to follow and listen to. Some podcasts are hell to try to get through, but yours is always an easy listen.
The thing i don't really understand is why go for a career in singing etc... if you don't want to have some level of fame? If you want to have anonymity then why go for a career where you put on a show for hundreds of people? You have to understand what you sign up for in terms of having some fan interactions
I think about it kind of like stage door etiquette after a musical. You can ask for an autograph or a picture or a chat, and they have every right to say no. And you must accept their no with grace. If Chappell roan doesn’t want to be approached on the street, that’s her no and we must accept that with grace. I have been listening to her music for like 2 years and I’m just happy that everyone is finally getting the memo about how amazing her art is.
Fame should be questioned especially the way it allows an audience to dehumanize a famous person and cross their boundaries
My farts are better than Matt Bernstein's farts.
@@p-__ Ice Spice is that you?
Boundaries are what you do w yrself not a rule for other ppl. I support her just reminding everyone
@@SpecialBlanket yes boundaries are for yourself, as in they're for what you are comfortable with. So if your boundary is that you don't want to hug strangers, then you don't have hug strangers
THIISSSSS! I’ve never understood the logic of “it just comes with the territory”. Okay so becoming popular makes you a commodity for others to consume??? To be dehumanized?? I think people need to take a good long look at what entertains them 🙃😓
She has literally started a WAVE with other artists setting boundaries. Absolutely amazing. I LOVE to see it. Anyone who finds it rude can kick rocks. Celebrities have a right to privacy and to be off the clock when they choose!!!!! ❤❤❤
My farts are better than Matt Bernstein's farts.
@@p-__ Prove it!
@@p-__extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof
It's kinfa scary to me that people who otherwisr are interested in social justice don't get it when a young queer woman draws a boundary and asks them to treat her better.
I actually think it started with Doja Cat. Doja had the exact same stance like a year ago and everyone started demonizing her, and she took that and was like "yeah, sure, I'm a devil. What else?" There might have been someone before, but the first person I remember having started this conversation really was Doja.
Australia has just passed a law giving workers the right to disconnect. You don't have to answer calls or emails after work, you finish work when you finish and don't need to have anything to do with work outside of work. This is a basic that I think everyone should get, regardless of what their job is. Chappell deserves this too. The backlash feels super "but what was she wearing" victim-blaming. No one invites stalking, harrassment etc, not by what they were wearing, not by what their job is, not by anything they do or don't do.
Funny you mention that. My Mom's husband grew up in the Commonwealth of Australia, and he constantly harasses me. Luckily I'm super aggressive and can easily get him to back off.
Maybe it’s just because I’m fully an adult now, but if she says she doesn’t wanna be acknowledged in public on the microscopic chance I did see her I would be content just being like “yeah I saw Chappel Roan isn’t that cool”
yeah it's literally that simple!! why can people not wrap their heads around this ahhh
literally! when i was like 13, i saw these two guys that made a viral dance at my local fair, i told my friend who they were and we moved on. it’s that simple.
My farts are better than Matt Bernstein's farts.
Right? Holler I love your work if you really have to be seen. Artist put things on pedestals, we're not supposed to put them there.
I’m too self conscious to approach someone randomly like that to begin with. I don’t wanna bother anybody.
I get so livid about the "I pay your salary" narrative. Like no you don't. You at best pay a record company who has a contract with the artist. I really wish Eliza had expounded on how much artists actually make on Spotify. $0.003 to $0.005 per stream.
I'm happy actually not really paying artist while using Spotify lol
Your comment caused 'Who the Hell Is Edgar?' To immediately start replay in my brain starting right from the bridge lol. ( I'm not mad though it's a great song) "0.003, give me two years and your dinner will be free, gas station champagne is on me, Edgar can. not. pay. bills. for. me."
right like the only thing that comes close to paying their salary is actually buying tickets to their concerts. and even then, ticketmaster, venues, staff and miscellaneous costs like gas and lodging still take up MASSIVE chunks of the revenue, sometimes leaving artists with a very low profit margin, sometimes even a loss.
And they get a service in return through streaming, and live performances. That's how purchasing something works. People don't get pissed at the company that makes yogurt when they run out of it in their fridge, why would you expect something outside of what you purchased from an artist?
This! Because you paid for an album or you paid to see a show. Once the album is owned or the show is over, the artist has fulfilled their end of the contract. You didn't pay for an all access pass to a meet and greet and photo opportunities whenever you want, why would you expect that?
46 years old italo-argentinean lesbian here. I'm reliving every minute of my repressed homo childhood and teenager years except this time i get to finally enjoy what it would have felt to be represented by a pop artist and i'm living for it. I love she understood the assignment and screams what it is to have agency over her body and career. Wish her the fucking best.
Italo Argentinian is this how Argentinians of Italian decent identify??
no somos todos los argentinos italo argentinos??? jajaja
@@chubeatle lol, obvio que no.
@@emmascrivener8109 no, this is how i identify based on obvious reasons. what's the actual question here?
@@brendolage the question is in the sentence.
she has already been stalked, her family's been stalked. a person sexual assaulted her. she more than enough right even before all that to set boundaries. and the people who hate her or make fun of her for it just hate women.
They hate women and they hate being reminded that they aren’t the main character and other people are real people with thoughts and feelings.
Correct.
Woman who fought for fame now has to live with it
@@jeremysanders9336 you're disgusting
@@jeremysanders9336 she shouldn't have to live with being stalked and harrassed and having her boundaries crossed because people like her art, you absolute clown
"Thats the way it is, deal with it" has been used to silence calls for change much more serious than this, i was surprised honestly to see so many young, queer and nonconforming people use it against Chappell. Celebrities from every niche are getting closer to their fans via the internet, and that should make it easier to see them as people.
Both for support and accountability.
Agreed, parasocial relationships are wild
people love to dress up their reactionary politics behind a progressive-sounding guise
Had a guy say this when I was talking about the awfulness of actresses being expected to perform sexual favours for roles. People will excuse ANYTHING.
So often that kind of entitlement comes from resentment that's rooted in envy. It's shocking to me that American culture doesn't usually acknowledge envy as a driving force behind the way celebrities are treated by social media and the public. The evil eye isn't a supernatural thing, it's just the natural outcome of being observed.
You’re so right
Fellow Contrapoints viewer
@@christianvalente3376 I was just gonna say.
No because I believe this is the root of it all. You're so right and this is something I thought about too. People hate her and other celebrities because they want what they have, plain and simple. The attitude "Well if I HAD what YOU HAVE I'd NEVER complain, you should be GRATEFUL" is DRIPPING I resentment and distain.
@@christianvalente3376Yes absolutely, but also I’m from a culture that believes in the evil eye. It’s a fairly common belief outside the US.
Everyone talks about how we should be more kind to famous people when it's too late (eg. Britney, Amy Whinehouse etc). Why not be kind and respect their boundaries before it goes too far? It is not unreasonable for her to have a life outside of work.
exactlu
I actually like that Chappell said this. I tend to idolise celebrities and totally would've come up to them on the street. Now I'll either think twice about it or only interact with them during meet and greets and concerts. She really made me think of my own behaviour.
Thats great to be looking at your own behavior like that. I definitely have the tendency towards idolizing people on UA-cam, podcast hosts and such. It took me seeing this kind of studf to check myself too. That "being called out" discomfort is good, even though it can be humbling.
Good on you, recognizing the improvable aspects of your behavior rather than sticking to your guns out of pride. It's not easy. The kind of clear cut statement Chappell made often tends to radicalize fans in both directions, so I'm glad to see it's actually bringing about a positive change of views in some people.
That's awesome 🩷💞
It reminds me of Yvie Oddly on Drag Race. She's chronically ill and struggled to keep up with meeting fans, so put out a public message saying she won't take photos out of meet and greet. She had a load of criticism for this from fans and other huge drag queens. As someone who's also chronically ill, the whole thing felt super frustrating.
Drag race fans are a whole breed of entitled crazies tbh.
I don’t get why this is even a question. It’s the chicken egg question only obvious. Without HER work, her talent, her blood sweat and tears she’d be nothing, not the fans. Roan is sharing her gift with the world already. She an ARTIST, not your therapist or lover. . Everyone is so self involved they don’t even know how to act . If you see Chappell Roan at a restaurant, leave her the fuck alone. Be your own damn hero. Nobody owes you anything for making art you love.
This!
so well said!!
Not really though, plenty of famous people have arguably no talent to speak of. And chapel roan has been producing stuff with her talent for years but hasn't gotten famous till recently. So it's just a fact that talent alone isn't the whole story
@@439801RS I think this goes to the "industry plant" accusation. Which is only asked in comparison to her contemporaries being Taylor Swift, Ariana Grande & Charli XCX, who have all been superstars for 10+ plus years now. Roan's rise has had the same rapidity as Billie Eilish; a consistent gain in fans over 4-5 years. Good Luck Babe is Chappell's Bad Guy moment.
@@439801RS its luck AND hard work and her major luck in being beloved by other artists including and especially the bigger ones
Maybe it's a matter of size, but I recall Doja Cat explicitly telling fans that she isn't their friend and regularly losing followers because of it.
It's good for this to be brought more into the conversation again and hopefully gets more ears this time around.
The way she went about it, I get why some fans would be mad but she wasn’t really wrong there
Now when she posted herself in that Ne0-N*zi t-shirt? Nah fuck her she deserved to be criticized for that, I ain’t giving her time of day after that
my personal opinion is that doja shaved her head and made it impossible to reason w her because she ruined her own rep that way. you know how the media views women w shorter hair. just look at those we praise and their hair and the fall off of those we used to adore before they shaved their head
@@1DerangedMortaldoja did not ruin her reputation, she is simply going through a phase that will either push her into becoming a better artist or destroy her career. It’s her choice or her label’s choice.
She said that she hated her fans and treated her fans like trash.
Imagine spending money on someone that only see you as a money machine.
@@dhsf5937 you don't get mad a plumber because they only want money for their service, it's no different with artists. An artist provides you with content and performance in exchange for money. It's not that hard to follow.
I'm so proud of her. Like she said she doesn't care if it's considered normal, she isn't tolerating it. I hope more celebrities follow suit. Our whole celebrity culture here is sick and could do with a change.
From my perspective it seems like she's cherry picking the parasocial behaviour she finds acceptable. Is it then surprising fans are getting confused on where her boundaries are? Not saying fans don't still hold part of the responsibility there, but so does the artist
@@439801RSnot she’s not. She’s expecting adults to behave with respect.
@@439801RS what kind of argument is that? Yeah, she picks what she is COMFORTABLE with, that's how boundaries work.
I can empathize with the gut reaction of like, here's the rest of us trying to make rent and there's a rich white person complaining about how hard it is to be famous. Like I can see where the irritation can come from. But then you put yourself in her shoes and it would be absolutely exhausting and frightening to be in that situation and you realize everyone deserves boundaries.
Also, she was literally assaulted. Like forcefully kissed. Had her family stalked by a fan. Stalked by a guy, berated by him when she said no to him hounding her for an autograph. He was taken away by airport security and he creepily turned up at another airport when she landed. If I was subjected to that, it would very viscerally make me feel incapable of differentiating between people with 'good' intentions and those who are messed up. I get when men say things that are misogynistic about this situation but when non-binary/queer people/women/poc, who are more regularly exposed to the dangers of violence aren't empathetic it truly astounds me.
@@Highlandslowlandsholy cow, that's scary. I hadn't heard about that, but that's insane.
@@Highlandslowlands Please don't "get" men being misogynists. Just like Chappell said, just because it is widespread does not mean it is normal. I don't mean it in a rude way, I just want to say that this bs should not be normalized.
Her race is irrelevant
@@TheGamer2001 ofcourse I won't accept it and it angers me terribly when men are misogynistic. Just meant that it some how feels particularly upsetting when the misogyny comes from within the same communities that experience harm from it.
32:06 People conflate consumerism and ownership. The illusion of ownership stems from the "consumerism as identity" ideology that is so prevalent today.
This is what I’ve been thinking about fame! It seems like celebrity worship is not merely envy based (because we don’t treat business/ media moguls with the same disrespect) but ownership based. We have not yet spiritually been able to as a society separate a celebrity selling a persona as product from the consumer having ownership over that celebrity’s physical body. We also conflate social media interaction with personal attention.
It's more like people conflate the ownership of product consumption with the non-ownership of content consumption.
Talking about the "illusion of ownership" feels a bit risky and WEF-esque to me. If I buy a bottle of Coke, I own that bottle.
If I buy an album, I (should) own that album and thereby have a right to listen to it. But I have no right to the creator.
It's more about people misunderstanding content creators as products. It's about dehumanisation rather than identity ideology.
Sure, "consumerism as identity" is the core that manifests a desperate need to consume more, but the issue regarding celebrity is people mixing up the right to consume a product vs the right to consume a person (i.e. their time and attention)
Then you have companies that can afford to launch projects themselves, but instead do a Backerkit getting their fans to fund it as investors. Then the fans just get the product and no ownership or profit. It is a messed up world.
@@francookie9353the length of the yt replies I usually end up deleting out of laziness tell me I need to start a podcast someday 😂 long story short- I agree with most of what you said but find the nature of human vs inanimate ownership more complex.
Nothing but factsss ☕️ ☕️
As a gay who didn't know who Chappell Roan is before watching this, I appreciate the background context
Same
I only found out when I couldn’t buy a pride ticket this summer bc she was performing (I was kinda pissed bc I didn’t even know who she was). And all my gay friends SHAMED me for not knowing. However most of music I listen to is Eurovision or Soundtracks/bands that make music for anime (both Japanese and Chinese).
Same! I just do not pay any attention to any music scene
Saaaame lol. I'm chronically online but in completely different circles 😂
I'm 42. I've heard her name before and I know she's a big deal but that's about it. I'm talking about Chappell Roan and Donna Summer.
The way he said "*pause*.... oooolder gay men" made me feel like I should get my affairs in order before I walk into the sea 😭
The part Eliza said about how we`re better off just texting our friend that we thought the celeb`s outfit was ugly soothed my nerves and soul in a way I wasnt expecting. Like why are we doing the mental gymnastics to avoid two truths; 1) we don`t always like what other people do 2) politeness and kindness both dictate that we are still on the hook not to be foul about it.
Was looking for a comment like this, that part really stuck out to me too! She’s so correct that we can all be a little ugly sometimes, and finding a healthy or at very least a private setting to release those feelings and energy is important.
Social media is an ego-stroking machine. That's literally its main purpose. It's crabs in a bucket all pulling each other down to try and win, and I'm glad I deleted my Facebook years ago and will never be on TikTok-likes.
I love that we’re having this dialogue and I don’t blame Chappell Roan one bit for asserting boundaries. Fame doesn’t entitle fans to terrorize their fave. Great episode y’all.
Chappell Roan is like the Erin Brockovich of pop msuic and I LOVE her for it. I hope she doesn't become some sanitized and compliant/boring celebrity. I love her raw, direct, and brash approach to fame
great points made here and I applaud Chappell for speaking out. However, I think we have to be careful about false equivalencies. Britney Spears was working and being the family breadwinner from the time she was a child and headlining a massive tour employing tons of people when she was still a teenager. That's a whole other level of being driven to the brink.
How her family treated Britney from a young age and how the public treated her were two different types of abuse she suffered, and honestly there are more than just similarities in the public treatment of Chappell. She is simply calling it out earlier cos have we learned nothing about how the public ruined Britney? Everyone needs that reminder
Britney is like the stage 4, most terminal extent to which fans and paparazzi impose on her life. Just because it wasn't the most extreme e example doesn't mean the principles differ. He fans are still exhibiting fight or flight inducing behavior (by being inappropriate), and they shouldn't. I hope it's never as bad for her as it was/ is for Britney, but I also don't want it bad for her at all.
On the fan side, the Britney comparison is fair.
matt ur serving twink lumberjack and i love that for u
My farts are better than Matt Bernstein's farts.
@@p-__ why would you make me read that
Lumbertwink*
@@r4tz4sn4ckz known troll.
cutoff flannel lesbian approved. werk it
I miss when we just found celebrities mysterious and out of reach
one of the unfortunate parts of social media. Everyone is accessible almost all the time
@@marslara people just say this but dont get off. I’ve been off for a whole year. Tried twitter again before the ban in my country and holy… how can something be so boring, overstimulating and annoying at the same time?
Fabulous comment!
Frank ocean
@@userjoao i don't quite mean from your own wishes. I mean there are tons of ways OTHER people have access to you all the time especially as a celebrity
that’s why i looooove the way the country i’m from handles “celebrities”. people usually leave them alone in public, it’s actually considered kind of rude to approach them if it’s not specifically desired.
wish that was the custom worldwide. may i ask where you're from ?
Which country is it?
@@deathby1kslimes945 I'm from Uruguay and it's the same here. But also it's a small country so we don't have celebrities on the same level as Chappell Roan 😅 But people here are generally more reserved and distant interacting with strangers so that's part of it. If a stranger touches my arm I'm calling 911
@@deathby1kslimes945switzerland! a lot of international “stars” enjoy staying here for that reason i think. when you’re going on a holiday to the mountains the locals leave you alone, for example. tina turner even lived here and apparently was totally fine running errands or going to the bakery etc haha
Eee vamo arriba uruguay@@daenerys02
TLDR; The “she wants fame, not what comes with it” argument is also rooted in jealousy, so folks can feel better about their own lack of social equity, self-esteem, etc. Their belief is it's unfair that she "has it all," and if they don't get to have fame, money, or self-love/care, then neither does she without unrelenting sacrifice.
Long-form:
The jealousy can stem from transactional love: it can stem from wanting admiration and feeling unloved (and therefore jealous she has it and they feel she “takes it for granted”), or feeling constantly duty bound to have no boundaries (ie love equals violated boundaries), and are jealous she gets to put down the boundaries they feel they’re not entitled to.
Jealousy also stems from increasing social inequity and inability to make ends meet; that jealousy makes it hard to see why her responses are indeed reasonable when quality of life has become quite precarious for so many. She and other celebrities are escapism, and no one wants their escapism to demand humanity or to have complexity when life is so unrelentingly complex already.
However, folks need to understand that dehumanizing someone will not make us feel better the way we think it will; in fact, it exacerbates our self-hatred, and exacerbates our inequity because we’re focusing blame on a pop star rather than demanding changes from those who actually can improve our quality of life. It’s easy fast food to attack her, rather than sit with feelings of hopelessness or incompetence.
They can dress it up however they wish ("she thinks she's better than everyone"), but at the end of the day, their disdain and anger is simply a reaction from their envious, insecure, unloved child parts. To be clear, trashing a hotel room or being rude to waitstaff is a lack of humility in fame that warrants admonition. Wanting privacy and uninterrupted grocery runs is not.
Additionally, if a stranger stares at me, talks to me, follows me, tries touching me, I’m conditioned to tell myself I'm overreacting AND to be alarmed. This is true for many women and minoritized folks, and I assume it doesn’t magically disappear when you become famous; it probably exponentially amplifies. You could be a normal person coming up to her, or you could have a weapon to harm her - she has no way of knowing which. If I were her, I'd have a no tolerance policy and take the "overreacting/ungrateful" reputation, rather than end up in a dangerous situation due to gaslighting myself.
Right? Harassment is not part of a job description lol. Like if someone gets harassed working in an office they can go to HR but she's supposed to do nothing and people who do this should never be chastised? People need to get their heads out of their bums.
Well said.
Excellent analysis. I don't know Chappell or her music, something my daughter tells me I need to change about myself, but I get the feeling just from this podcast that her goal is to be a successful musician. That is different than celebrity.
Great comment . R eally insightful , I think
Chappell Roan deserves to loose her fan base. I don't like her at all anymore.
The smear campaign on a very outwardly queer female artist should be studied because it feels very intentional
Atlantic records tipping every tabloid out there😅
I get that fans have unfairly high expectations of Chappell but expecting her to show up for a tour date is just totally justified expectations, they were mad she cancelled it last minute when they already spent a lot of money on hotels and travel expenses. This said, i loved Eliza's commentary here and you continue to bring on great guests to your podcast
I understand being disappointed and perhaps upset, but clearly this was an amazing opportunity and a difficult choice to make. Casting her as ungrateful and entitled because of this seems unwarranted. What if we felt excited for her getting this opportunity?
@@mkmason7727 my question in all of this is why did the VMA's invite her so suddendly and late? Like, do they usually do this? If so, this must have happened with other artists before too, no? How did their fans react when they had to cancel to go to the VMA's?
@@liaspooked4980I don't know if the VMAs make it a habit to book people relatively last-minute, but it makes sense in context with Chappell when you remember that Lollapalooza switched her and Kesha's stages two weeks out from the festival because of the crowd she was anticipated to draw (and the numbers still surpassed their expectations). Her rise has been meteoric and the VMAs wanted to capitalise on that
@@mkmason7727She canceled the Berlin Show two days before it was supposed to happen. I think that is inappropriate, especially after I saw that people saw she was featured as an act for the VMAs weeks before that. People have a right to question that decision, they took vacation days, traveled to Berlin, booked hotels and other stuff. The way she and her team handled this was unprofessional and I think that’s something she should take accountability for. If you make a point that you see your performances as a job and that you want to take that in a professional manner, you should also uphold the contracts you made with the people who want to watch your performance. It’s her right to set boundaries and I think Fan culture is going too far but I do think she made a mistake in the way she communicated the cancelling of the European shows.
I thought the same thing@@liaspooked4980
slightly unrelated but i find this podcast so cozy and nice
thanks rat patterson uwu
@@MattBernstein1 The moment you say "hello hello", I feel warmth. Thank you for being so generous with it!
Your commitment to providing context even when it seems like everyone would have it is one of the things that I love most about this podcast. Too few culture commentators are willing to do this.
The "she wants fame but not what comes with it" line to me sounds like the victim blaming of SA. The "she was asking for it wearing that outfit" lines.
The social conversation is partly set by celebrity culture. So Chappell setting her boundaries, compartmentalising her work vs personal life, signals the fact that everyone deserves healthy work life balance. Good for her!
the 2022 bowery ballroom concert was one of the best i’ve ever been to. the fans there were so respectful and joyful both to chappell and others. nothing she does and her boundaries could ever make me hate her.
"it doesn't need to be a grand theory about the universe, and it hardly ever is". A+
Posting this the day after the VMA’s is divine timing GOD I love Matt
what fans are entitled to: nothin.
what chappel is entitled to: her own bloody life, space, privacy and dignity.
super frustrating that folks don’t get that.
I would love for this to kick off a larger movement of famous people setting firm boundaries bc the access that fans feel entitled to is unhinged.
FYI Matt: those „unnecessary” introductions are actually quite useful.
absolutely. all of these podcast topics are important for people who aren’t chronically online to hear, and assuming that they already know the premise is missing out on a big potential audience.
Celebrity and parasocial relationships is definitely an important topic.
Someone’s career should not mean they are exempt from the basic human rights of personal space, privacy, and safety.
Her Tiny Desk is honestly the best one yet and to me, what ultimately cemented her in the public eye. I am OBSESSED with how TD constraints challenge artists - her paired-down take on the music, the incredible makeup/styling and authentic banter created one of my favorite live performances captured on video. If you were there, you truly witnesseed the magic of music and connection ❤❤❤ I wish Chappell nothing but respect!!!
I'm older, and I used TikTok during the lockdown. It felt weirdly more intimate than any other platform I have been on. People looking into your eyes and talking what feels directly to you feels SO personal. I hope Chappell Roan and her fans find a balance.
Same, im older as well and the directness of the videos of people directly talking into the camera freaked me out. Imagine being exposed to videos like that allll the time ... that'll mess with a person.
I'm for one are happy that you describe the people you talk about because I don't know about them.
I'm fairly online but a bit older!
And I absolutely love these podcasts and I wouldn't mind 1.5h daily!
Haha I'm like 30 and I have no idea who most of the celebs mentioned on this podcast are
When it comes to the VMA's and cancelling her shows, I think some people are forgetting that Chappell is not making the sole decisions about the shows she does...she has a deal with a record company. They're going to have significant pull when it comes to the performances she participates in. Doing Lolla and the VMAs doesn't mean she should resign herself to stalking and being treated like an object rather than a human being.
"Chappell Roan is NOT the Government!😤". Lol. My favourite takeaway from this😂😅
It’s exactly why Gaga spoke on this in 2009 with her vma performance bleeding on stage and being hung into the air she was showing what you guys did to Marylin Monroe and a lot of other famous female stars in the past everyone always want to see the downfall of someone famous and watch them fall on their faces people love to see the rise of artist of an artist but the especially love to see them fail and stan twitter really has aided to this issue that’s been happening to female stars for DECADES.
it‘s just crazy how people think that artists owe them anything… in the end, you buying their music, is still just a transaction. Of course it‘s on a deeper level bc people can resonate with it but that doesn‘t mean you get to force an interaction/relationship onto someone just bc you like their music (which is a one-sided thing). I would NEVER have the arrogance of walking up to someone i don‘t know and ask them for a hug or whatever. It‘s just weird and creepy. Artists are human beings and they come with boundaries. You don‘t get to decide what those boundaries are just bc you like their music
I find it fascinating how visceral people's reaction to her not being interested in celebrity has been. People take it for granted that fame is to be welcomed with nothing but gratitude. It's very refreshing to see a musician who is not in the business for the celebrity of it but for the platform to share their art with as many people as possible. They tried to do to Mitski what they are now doing to Chappell and Mitski did not relent, very cool to see Chappel so adamant on waiting the craze out as well so she can just do her thing and chill. I wholeheartedly support her on that.
Honestly healthy. People saying she “can’t handle fame” is so stupid. None of the rest of us have to do our jobs while not at work. Chappell isn’t making a radical request here, famous people deserve common courtesy too. Having money and status while it changes a lot of things doesn’t change your basic humanity and doesn’t make your personal time a commodity for consumption.
I don’t understand how Adele is capable of doing what Chapel Roan is intended to do without a big announcement every time
I'm not even 2 minutes in and I had to pause to process the ick of when people say "choose your fans". SHE DOESN'T KNOW YOU!
Stan culture needs to be dismantled, some people can't handle being fans of people to a normal degree.
stans are a group of zeroes in real life that are steadfast and loud online hoping that collectively they'll add up to something
As someone who is a queer woman, I cannot even fathom how she must feel, she's getting harassed x1000 (SA, Stalking etc) Harassment from LGBT+ phobic people and much more, as a woman who has been catcalled and gets very emotional about it, I could not live a day in her shoes, I would want to kill myself if I was ever in that light, people are so dumb honestly, this is how Chappell is just never gonna go outside anymore, but she's gonna shut off her media stuff aside for shows and stuff, and everyones gonna be pissed off, and tbh I hope she does that because I want to watch these psychos get what's coming for them because I am so done with people feeling entitled to women's bodies famous or not.
In this conversation, I just want to give Doja Cat her flowers for also being an of-the-moment female artist who is pushing the culture to be more sane, more humane, and more civil
about the fan to anti-fan pipeline: the opposite of love is not hate it’s apathy. thats why its so easy for people to flip the intense connection is the same but instead of admiration it’s contempt.
This was an incredibly nuanced and insightful discussion. Both of you are so intelligent and thoughtful. Thanks for this, definitely food for thought.
* guitar riff *
I've been *WAITING* for this one! *TURN IT UP*
Ty for consistently explaining context! I'm a random straight who just finds your voice soothing, so it helps me stay with the video.
(like the rest of the podcast) this was such a great discussion, but I do think you missed the mark in thinking of Chappell as the “patient zero” for the line she’s drawing with her fans in the 2020’s; the Internet had just as loud an outrage for Doja Cat’s behavior towards her fans post- Planet Her, and just like Matt mentioned everyone conveniently forgot when Chappell made her TikTok; I think it would definitely serve today’s fandom culture to keep in mind that these artists to deserve privacy and respect, so everyone is better off
I'm not the biggest fan of Doja Cat because of some of the shit she's done but she still deserves to have her boundaries respected. I'm glad more artists are speaking up and setting boundaries so I hope that this sort of invasive parasocial fan behavior can become a thing of the past this decade.
Glad to say I got my Chappell badge back in 2018! Met her and supported her for years she’s hella funny, a hard worker, and extremely talented. Knew the first time I saw her live she was gonna be huge
The opening Chappell Roan... ... ... period. joke made so much more sense than listening to the first half on spotify. I thought my headphones were broken!
i have to disagree a bit on the cancellation of the shows. i think it's wholly understandable for people to be annoyed by it. no one likes to hear news about an artist cancelling or showing up grossly late to shows, and it's a bummer when it happens to you. i've been going to shows for 20+ years, there's a pact there of mutual respect between the audience and the artists. cancelling, especially for a televised appearance, is crummy and warrants some criticism. i don't think it's inherently wrong to push back on chappell roan/her team on that. but the internet, like always, overreacts and blows things way out of proportion.
Chappell Roan doesn’t deserve the deranged folks stalking and harassing her. She has commented numerous times that she doesn't seek fame and is having a hard time with it. But she keeps opening her mouth expressing opinions on politics etc then recoiling when folks respond to her unfavourably. She plays the "Don't look at me (but please look at me)" attention seeking game and then plays the victim when she gets attention that she doesn't like. She didn't have to say anything- could keep making art (her word, not mine) and avoid making public statements about anything other than her art. She has now cancelled further appearances to look after her mental health. I hope she spends the time away from the spotlight looking after herself - however I suspect the time away will be brief because as much as she says she doesn't want the attention, she'll be gagging to post some kind of nonsense on Tiktok or Instagram or X just to get a reaction... and then complain about all the supposed unwanted attention yet again.
Thank you for the background on Chappell, Matt. i am the viewer who needed it!
This is another moment when we need to evaluate the origins of modern fame. Fame was created to make money for companies. It used to be that the culture primarily turned people into symbols so that fame could be converted into power, but then, they turned people into products so that fame could be turned into money instead. And, as usual, that money attracted a secondary market of journalism, which further codified that access to celebrities was equal to money and/or value.
This is why so many people treat an encounter with a celebrity with the same grasping greed as they would someone tossing fifties into the air on a public sidewalk. Even if you can't really sell that selfie with Tom Hanks to a tabloid for actual money, people feel like they got something of actual monetary value "for free."
The unconscious internal calculation is literally something like "well you're not doing anything with that monetizable commodity (aka your face/body/whole deal) in this moment, so let ME get a hit of that value, bruh!"
We all gotta retrain our brains to stop thinking of your favorite influencer seen in public as like, a dropped wallet with no ID, and more like the adage of "you wouldn't snatch cash out of someone's hand as they were paying for something at the store, because you know it's not for you."
Knowing that Pink Pony Club is written about the bar where Sandoval and Raquel got caught by Ally is iconic.
i only learned about her existence very recently and i still haven’t listened to a single chapel roan song, BUT i did check out Eliza’s music after this epsiode ended instead and it’s an instant follow from me. girl, your music is such a vibe! into my playlists you go! ❤
0:15 alright, I better see that left arm in my mailbox by the 20th.
Ship it express if you have to
Andy Warhol said in the future everyone would be famous for 15 minutes. That was updated in the early Web 2.0 days to “everyone will be famous to 15 people”. I think there’s a more nuanced version that’s needed now
Matt! I'm a relatively new listener to your podcast and I really, really appreciate your insight and analysis. Your perspective is helpful, funny, and just really fucking wonderful-- I'm stoked the algorithm pointed me to you.
Eliza, you are a total badass move to bail on TikTok because you didn't like how it was affecting your songwriting--- huge respect from a fellow musician. ❤️
just found this pod and I love it. You two are so good. I think the discourse that Chapel has started is so important and it’s really forcing people to examine their para social relationships and set boundaries. I love that for us.
Your _desire_ for something does not _entitle_ you to it. Anyone who has been cornered by a guy at a party knows how she feels.
I like many performer's music, but I don't want to know them as a person. As a listener/ fan I get to choose that. When the performer admits they don't have the energy to devote personal time to the entire population of a mid-sized country and still have the ability to do life things, they're branded as selfish and ungrateful. It's clearly an impossible accommodation when phrased that way, yet everyone wants to be that exception that hung out and got the photo.
I'm glad that Chappell Roan has helped to once again highlight the weird and invasive ways the public puts individuals on a pedestal and interacts with fame, even if it's not a new conversation. I'm old enough to remember the early 00s when paparazzi were considered "out of control" and needed to be stopped from hounding celebrities in to potentially lethal situations, and now "fan culture" increasingly feels like that.
Maybe I'm just too Minnesotan, but I cannot fathom the audacity required to approach a celebrity in a grocery store or whatever. Like, oh my god, just let them fucking run their errands in peace!
The tough thing for many celebrities is that they wish to court publicity when it advances their purposes, while shunning publicity when it does not. Perhaps the public ought not be faulted if its members have difficulty, at any given time, determining the location of that seemingly ever-shifting line.
But as a human being Chappell Roan deserves the same respect we would show to someone else and just respect boundaries. Just because someone is famous doesn’t give the fans the right to breach his/her/their privacy. At the end of the day their job is to only provide entertainment through their work and not encourage this type of parasocial behaviour, they are just fellow humans who create content to entertain ppl and shouldn’t be idolised and worshipped.
@@albedo-sama9778if you want to be a famous musician people are gonna talk to you. If you invite them to be close to you on Tiktok or Instagram people are gonna talk to you. Crying bc people are asking for pictures is insane when these are the people that are the reason your record label pays you. Without fans no record label. Without record label no money. People can deny all they want that fans don’t pay the bills but at the end of the day a famous and rich musician has a lot of fans and an unknown and poor musician has no fans. Obviously stalking and other stuff is insane and crosses way too many lines but wanting to be famous musician includes people recognizing you. If she likes music she should have become a music teacher or something like that instead
I appreciate you guys taking the time to explain who she is and her origin story. I'm a little bit older than you guys (apparently older than I realized when Matt mentioned he wasn't born until 1999ish!) and I'm not on Tik Tok, so I had been hearing her name on a radio morning show occasionally but didn't know anything about her until people started coming out with videos reacting to that TikTok. The one video I watched had the person mispronouncing her name and I was kind of like, "Okay, cool, someone else who didn't know who this was." I think you guys bring up great points about letting celebrities be able to clock out, essentially. I think social media helps blur the lines a bit because now we get to have access to what people are doing all the time and some celebrities do choose to share random things about their daily lives. On the flipside, social media lets celebrities speak more directly and give their side of a story, whereas the celebrities who were being mistreated by paparazzi in the 2000's wouldn't have had as many opportunities to do so. I also found myself thinking about how there is some website that lets people track where Taylor Swift's private jet is, which feels both weird and potentially dangerous to me.
Thinking about a celebrity as a worker who on the street is 'off the clock' was really eye opening for me. I hadn't thought of it in that context, so while I agreed with the sentiment of letting celebrities do their own thing I struggled for it to slot into the expectation of my own behaviour. Weirdly, this analogy really put it in perspective for me. I've never met anyone really famous, I certainly have at least one actor I would struggle to be normal around and it sucks because the last thing I would ever want to do is make someone uncomfortable- especially someone whose work I really admire and respect. Hearing you guys talk about how even positive praise can be overwhelming was really helpful. I hope I can be self aware enough and empathetic enough that if I ever do meet someone famous I can just be chill and treat them like a normal person.
Can I just say I discovered your channel via the various Rowling videos (thanks for those by the way), but have since become an addict. Your videos are just a joy to watch/listen to.
Much like Contrapoints, you'll post a video about something I have no knowledge it interest in and yet I'll want to watch it anyway!
Taking celebrities off their pedestals is good for us and them. Celebrity worship is unhealthy and causes a lot of mental stress
I'm that millenial mom who's past 35 but not yet 40, grew up a scene kid plugged into Why?, CocoRosie, Cat Power and Devendra Banhart that now listens to music on the daily commute to work and rediscovers the 80s with my kids (who are very into Madonna, actually). I have heard of Chappell Roan but hadn't listened to her music nor thought about her in any way. Thank you Matt and Eliza for keeping me educated ✌️😘
I think an interesting contrast in parasocial boundary establishment would be Doja Cat. Both in delivery and reception, it’s curious to see the differences between Chappell Roan v Doja a little over a year apart
Doja cat is a WEIRDO but she was right to call out her stans. Go work, go do your homework, or go help your parents around the house!!
Maybe it's because I am in my late twenties with my full frontal lobe and have been in fandom spaces for most of my life but I feel like the idea of celebrity, fame, and parasocial attitude has morphed into this monster of "your job is to entertain me, be my role model, and be available to me at all times" while also "you are a celebrity, who cares if you are uncomfortable with the fame I have given you?" Not understanding that most of these people probably look at their art as their job and the fame/being widely known is the price they have to pay in order to "make it." Celebrity is unnatural to the human experience, particularly in the way that it is exists in 2024.
I also have a coin of being an early Chappell Roan fan. It was sometime in 2021 where California was in my Discover Weekly. I sent it to a few friends of mine and I was like this song is amazing why doesn't this artist have more songs? When she was first beginning to promote the Midwest Princess tour last fall, I remember pre sale being about $30 at a local venue. One of my biggest regrets is not getting tickets (undiagnosed ADHD brain) because when the concert finally came around, the resale tickets were like $300.
There needs to be an institutionalized rehab for people addicted to social media. Many of them are experiencing a break from reality and it’s ruining our society in many sad ways.
Imagine everywhere you went, whether going out with friends or going to pick up a coffee or simply going for a walk, someone recognizes you and asks for a picture….and then gets MAD if you say no?? Ohhhh I’d kms not gonna lie 🙃
The view from your window is always so calming and comforting to see in the background, I love it lol! It adds a really cozy vibe (and a less "sterile" one that some breadtube videos/podcast sets have)
As always, the makeup is chef's kiss
I can remember when Team 10's address would constantly get leaked and kids & their parents would show up to Jake Paul's house unannounced, demanding autographs and photos and even (or especially) the parents would get so aggressive about how they "deserved" it because "he'd be nothing without his fans".. even though I can't stand him, I still felt sorry for him and understood how unhinged that behavior was. It baffles me that grown adults see nothing wrong with this kind of behavior..
15:05 Have we just memory holed Friday by Rebecca Black?
1. Matt's shirt has the same pattern as one of my late grandfather's polos, and that makes me happy.
2. Really hope other celebrities back Roan up and post similar things.
3. I don't know anything about Eliza, but I think Matt may want to accept that he is a celebrity. Maybe with a lowercase c, but I think it counts. Remember when Lindsay Ellis said she wasn't a celebrity? She is. The bar is lower now, and I think if strangers are coming up to you unprompted saying, "Omg your work is amazing," more than once in, like, a year, I think you're a celebrity. Like, if people are going up to Matt and saying this more than once during the year, he is just as famous as my relative who is in the traditional entertainment industry (writer, actor, producer, approached in my late grandmother's nursing home when my brother was something like 9).
As a queer woman who is apparently very "straight coded" in the algorithm despite feverishly listening to girl in red, king princess, hayley kiyoko, etc....I dont feel like the queer community can claim investment rights. Chappell has given so much and supported the queer community so much and statistically, didnt explode until Coachella when she was presented to a huge, multifaceted audience. I heard of her because I clicked on an "espresso" youtube mix and hot to go was part of it. Did I immediately go feral? Yes - but did the queer community "make" her? Doubtful.
I hate to admit it, but I am pretty sure I would be intrusive and want a selfie with Oscar Wilde if I got the chance.
Bet he would eat it up
I saw Mitski last weekend, and I like how it's very obvious in her art that it's a performance. She's acting. She described herself on stage as a 'sad clown', or the Shakespearean poignant fool, and I think that really brings the bread-and-circus aspect of fame into the spotlight. For an hour or two, she is the dancing monkey for us, and then she goes back to being a normal human being. All the world's a stage in the world of fame, et cetera.
Probably talking to the aether here but when you say your grateful im here it makes me feel appreciated
Nothing but proud of Chapelle for putting the line in the sand, celebrities deserve to feel like real people who aren’t objects for public consumption.
Eliza articulated things so clearly. Every episode of this podcast is a joy in how it brings in people who have lived experiences centred around the subject. It's just so RIGHT ❤
both of you are very well articulated. thank you for this episode. i will definitely check out eliza’s music, it feels super nice to hear an artist who’s able to critically examine the culture. thanks guys!
My only comment is that "working as a cashier in a donut shop" scans perfectly with "You were working as a waitress in a cocktail bar" in Don't You Want Me by the Human League
These are the best takes I've heard on this by far. I sincerely wish Chappell luck in brute forcing a paradigm shift. It's long overdue.
The guests on this podcast are always so insightful and perfectly chosen for the topic at hand.
I really appreciate your interview and conversation style. It's so easy to follow and listen to. Some podcasts are hell to try to get through, but yours is always an easy listen.
26:35 fans as investors vs. patrons is a brilliant observation.
The thing i don't really understand is why go for a career in singing etc... if you don't want to have some level of fame? If you want to have anonymity then why go for a career where you put on a show for hundreds of people? You have to understand what you sign up for in terms of having some fan interactions
I think about it kind of like stage door etiquette after a musical. You can ask for an autograph or a picture or a chat, and they have every right to say no. And you must accept their no with grace. If Chappell roan doesn’t want to be approached on the street, that’s her no and we must accept that with grace.
I have been listening to her music for like 2 years and I’m just happy that everyone is finally getting the memo about how amazing her art is.