I'm in the process of finishing my basement and have been stressed out about the pre-slope. As a DIYer that learns 90% through UA-cam I never even questioned if it was necessary. This approach is so simple that I'm filled with confidence moving forward. Thank you!
It's hard to shape and slope wet concrete. I just trowel down some thinset first, then immediately wet-set the dry-pack mortar pre-slope. Easy to shape and slope. I've never tried to quick-set a dry-packed bed though. You can do the same thing over wood subfloor if you hit it with a liquid membrane first.
Okay thank you for your value advice. Going to be trying my hand at building a shower from scratch. Your vids are great you are a master of this trade. Hope your son is getting better
Been in the Masonry business for 45 years and have never seen good mechanic use there hands with rubber gloves to move mud that is what the trowel and margin trowel are for
So the inference is because I don't use what you consider proper tools that I'm not good 🤣 The end result is what matters, regardless and despite how you get there.... if you ever have traveled as I have to the Caribbean or southeast Asia you would probably change your tune a bit, they do better with less ✔️
My question was in concern of moisture from wet concrete getting inside of the wood perimeter and have it rotten in time, again not questioning your process just wondering for my general knowledge, thank you
I have this exact problem but to combine with the fact that the drain assembly is not quite level. Could the process you just showed also fix the level???
Things are changing my friend, everybody is waterproofing the surface of their mortar, if you're still doing a pre-slope and then perhaps you're still using a payphone
@@StarrTile preslope garentees water not to get trapped in a low spot to give it a chance to get stagnant. That is common sence. Also tile does not adhere to water proofer as well. I have been in the biz 30 years. Never had a complaint and my showers are still looking as good as new. It's a shame for people to give out the wrong information to unsuspecting people
Yes this guy is out of control he's talking about waterproofing what should be the pre-slope that would be under the membrane so talking about wasting time and putting a waterproofer that would go underneath of the membrane. I get calls to repair this kind of hack
Removed tub that had a 4 to 6 inch drain from the wall. Got plumber to come in and move the drain to 9 3/4 (that’s the furthest we could go before breaking concrete) so I could install a schluter shower pan. However now the drain sits to high on the pan. Drain is about 2 3/8 from slab. Can defiantly fix but I’m trying to avoid recalling plumber to re do his work and cut into the slab. As this is a friend and he is not charging me. I have a few thoughts in mind but need some clarification and some advice. I could pour concrete and leave it out to where the schluter drain and pan would fit. Or I could use the Oatey drain ( sits 1 1/8 from slab and do the shower with 4to1 mud bed. Prefer to use the pan but willing to the the mud bed. Any advice would be great. Thanks in advance.
Hi, got a question, have ever use a side mounted shower drain. Such as the blue ve brand. Seen it on amazone. If you have have, how did you tie in the shower liner to it. I always see you use a oakly style type of drain.
Because I'm extremely careful... because nothing gets close to the top of the drain.... and mostly because it's never happened before so why would it happen here
Hi Bob, so you are just building the floor up for the drain, then you put the liner over that and then mortar over the liner. Right? Have you ever had a reaction with the mortar eating the pan liner because of the acidity of the mortar?
What to do when the flange is wrong? I've got this... called a plumber to install a back flow flange in the half bath I'm doing. Why? I have never installed one before. Thought it best to have "pro" help with it. Told him tile was going on the floor and wall BEFORE he started. Well, no idea why, maybe he did not like my face of something.... but he put the flange to where I would HAVE TO set the commode on the concrete AND it was recessed in the wall way too far. After calling and getting no response, I had to cut the drywall out to fit the toilet. Install said toilet. And, tile around the toilet. Had to make sure all looked good so my husband did not complain. ALSO... I am praying so hard that the toilet has no issues for the next 30 plus years.
I suppose every trade has its skill level and experience... sounds like you got a newbie. But there are flange spacers, normally they come in about 1/4 inch thickness and installing 1 or 2 of those would've been the solution...OR a flange extender that has a rubber gasket midway and you adjust where needed for 4" or 3" opening. It is sad that you have to keep your eyes on contractors and correct them nowadays 😬
@@StarrTile I know I could use a flange spacer for a floor mount toilet, but I had no idea I could use them for a back flow. 'sigh' I'll know next time. :/ Thanks for the advice. Also, hope your boy is doing better.
hello there ,I'm new to this so please forgive my ignorance, out of curiosity I notice that you poured the concrete against the wood ,it's that going to be a problem with moisture for the wood in time ?Thank you !
The layer of concrete was to get up to the bottom of the drain flange, after that your liner goes on top... so even if there was cracking later on with regard to the concrete and wood it will never transfer do the mortar bailing because of the pan liner... but I would never anticipate in encapsulated area that concrete would be able to have movement
Quick question...I am redoing shower on concrete slab...does it have to be a specific type of concrete to fill in the slab around and up to the drain before placing pan liner or just regular cement? This shower originally had no liner so I had to remove the old wet mortar down to the concrete so now the shower floor is about 4 inches below main floor slab and I need to fill in around the drain and smoothen out the floor before putting in the pan liner.
So no pre slope at all? Do you add a little slope to your mortar bed/thinset when setting tile? I just feel having some slope will at the very least speed any water that does make it to the waterproof layer (liquid membrane or rubber liner) to the drain and keep water from standing in the event there is a minor low spot or wrinkle etc in the waterproofing layer. You feel thats not needed?
If you waterproof the surface of your mortar bed then there is no reason to do pre slope which is another reason that I don't do them, having the mortar bed itself only ensures that you have a slope for your surface tile, any water the penetrates through the grout to the waterproof would dissipate and evaporate between showers so I'm not too concerned about that whatsoever
@@StarrTile - i think were talking about 2 different things. The traditional pre slope is a mortar bed layed onto the subfloor and covered with a rubber liner and then another mortor bed for setting tile on top of that. So 2 mortar beds separated by the rubber liner. With liquid membrane waterproofing i pour or set 1 sloped mortar bed and apply Redgard on top of that and set tile directly to the Redgard. But i still have a slope to the drain. I think you are saying that you dont bother with that 1st pre slope bed but do have a sloped mortar bed on top of your water proof membrane, exactly as i do. Correct? Or are you saying you dont have a slope to the drain at all?
I understood exactly what you were talking about, a pre slope is for the supposed water in water out system which I don't believe functions as intended, therefore I don't do a pre slope because I don't feel that it does any good, going forward in time I waterproof the entire pan surface so therefore the pre slope would be a moot issue. The slope mortar pan that I build is specifically to give the tile a slope for the surface water to run off into the drain
@@StarrTile - roger that. Yes thats what i thought. I may not have worded it correctly however. Your sloped bed is above the waterproofing layer, which is on the subfloor/slab. My sloped bed is on the subfloor/slab below the waterproofing layer (Redgard) and i set tile directly to the Redgard, no other mud bed required. Im binge watching your vids and just trying to understand the various ways you do things depending on situation.
What do I do when I have leaky square shower drain with no downspout underneath. Our bathroom guy appears to literally cut the round drain body/flange to fit a square hole! And detached the 4x4 square drain pan and sat it atop and glued it in! Please help
You're totally 100% wrong. if you do Kerdi waterproofing supposedly no pan at all but with last generation style install with a pan liner you need a pre slope and you need weep holes. If you're that sure no water will see your pan then why even put the pan down? Then you don't believe in weep holes either? So "if" any water "somehow" gets the pan (which you say you don't need) then it's just going to sit there forever. Suppose you use waterproofing painted on red guard or similar, water can somehow still get through over time. This is especially true on installs over wood sub floors. I've torn out showers with no pre slope and they had plugged up weep holes with thin set, and loads of water just sitting in the pan. Just do it the right way. No red guard on shower floor. Use an acrylic grout if you want less water in pan. If you self diagnosed method was the way to go no manufacturer would recommend a pre slope with a pan liner, but they all do. Suppose
23 years ago when I started doing this work I always made my showers better than I found them.... I even have a video on my channel called the 100-year shower, built 35 years prior and I was just now doing a renovation, everything done wrong but yet it lasted 35 years, anything that I do going forward will last at least 50 if not better or until the next person decides to do a renovation. I won't argue the points that you made because it will just be an argument, I basically went through how I deal with showers on the video and explain why, because you don't believe in it doesn't make it wrong and following any manufacturer is a recipe for disaster, Oatey has a video about how to set their drain and I would not do it their way and they also show backer board embedded into the mortar and I do not do that either, we could go on and on about different methods but as I said everything I do is exponentially better than what the last guy did and arguably better then what manufacturers allow for. I will however touch on a couple of minor subjects you mentioned, I still do a liner through force of habit, but totally not needed, also Redgard will not deteriorate over time.
Concrete without stones is mortar...in this case I used concrete, then after dried pan liner and mortar. But no, concrete isn't appropriate replacement for mortar.
I’m trying to make sense of it though, if he is saying a preslope doesn’t work then what does the water do in a situation where the drain backs-up…? Can’t that trap moisture underneath the pan thus resulting in mold growth/efflorescence build up. Especially on wood subfloor if there’s a plumbing problem (not a tile problem) can’t the water pool and cause an unwanted mildew smell even underneath redguard? I might be overthinking everything
@ohokayofficial I see what you're saying. But the bigger problem is that he's liquid water proofing up the side of the drain ,on the post slope, which means once it's tiled, the water that gets into the tile and thin set on top of the post slope with liquid waterproofing on top of it. And it will never dry out and it will discolor or have blochiness and smell and mildew. The water cannot get up-and-over the side of the drain.3/8 height. So around a drain done like this, is going to be soaking. Wet all the time. if you didn't take a shower for 2 weeks. Maybe it would dry out, but a regular shower that's getting used every day will never dry out build like this.
Hey All. I have re-positioned the drain on my shower build and the flange has ended up about the same height off the floor as in the video. Other than cost is there a reason to NOT use self leveling?
Perhaps this channel should be more about HIM and less about his work? Perfect opportunity to install a pre-slope (however redundant that may be) and he chose to do, welp, this?😀
I'm in the process of finishing my basement and have been stressed out about the pre-slope. As a DIYer that learns 90% through UA-cam I never even questioned if it was necessary. This approach is so simple that I'm filled with confidence moving forward. Thank you!
Glad to help!
'Focused on the stuff that doesn't matter' matters b/c like you mentioned whether seen or unseen - you know your work!
Thanks Bob. While it might seem mundane work to you, seeing how you took care of the issue was great.
Thank you for sharing all your knowledge and the work you do! Amazing!
It's hard to shape and slope wet concrete.
I just trowel down some thinset first, then immediately wet-set the dry-pack mortar pre-slope. Easy to shape and slope. I've never tried to quick-set a dry-packed bed though. You can do the same thing over wood subfloor if you hit it with a liquid membrane first.
Thank you for sharing with us the viewers. I have learned a lot from you.
Thank you 👍
Okay thank you for your value advice. Going to be trying my hand at building a shower from scratch. Your vids are great you are a master of this trade. Hope your son is getting better
Nice work I’m still watching 👀👍👍✌️
Thank you SO MUCH for sharing your knowledge and skills.
Is there a rule of thumb for how many inches you should be below your floor line with the top of you drain?
Been in the Masonry business for 45 years and have never seen good mechanic use there hands with rubber gloves to move mud that is what the trowel and margin trowel are for
So the inference is because I don't use what you consider proper tools that I'm not good 🤣
The end result is what matters, regardless and despite how you get there.... if you ever have traveled as I have to the Caribbean or southeast Asia you would probably change your tune a bit, they do better with less ✔️
So I know you said you planned to use a shower pan, but if you were to tile the floor you would have had a slope there, red guard it, and then tile?
My question was in concern of moisture from wet concrete getting inside of the wood perimeter and have it rotten in time, again not questioning your process just wondering for my general knowledge, thank you
The moisture wouldn't stay, it would wick in and dissipate...remember it's on concrete too that aborbs that moisture, and a one time thing.
Awesome skills
I have this exact problem but to combine with the fact that the drain assembly is not quite level. Could the process you just showed also fix the level???
Pre slops are important as is the weep holes if you don't want mold.
Don't rely on waterproofers. Do it right and you won't need to waterproof.
Things are changing my friend, everybody is waterproofing the surface of their mortar, if you're still doing a pre-slope and then perhaps you're still using a payphone
@@StarrTile preslope garentees water not to get trapped in a low spot to give it a chance to get stagnant. That is common sence. Also tile does not adhere to water proofer as well.
I have been in the biz 30 years. Never had a complaint and my showers are still looking as good as new.
It's a shame for people to give out the wrong information to unsuspecting people
@BillAllor Thank you very much sir, this dude is out of control man!
Yes this guy is out of control he's talking about waterproofing what should be the pre-slope that would be under the membrane so talking about wasting time and putting a waterproofer that would go underneath of the membrane.
I get calls to repair this kind of hack
@@BillAllor Totally agree. you have a good evening.
Now was a good time for that rapid set structural mortar.
That stuff dries way too fast for one guy to do a few bags. This fast setting concrete gave me more than enough time.
Removed tub that had a 4 to 6 inch drain from the wall. Got plumber to come in and move the drain to 9 3/4 (that’s the furthest we could go before breaking concrete) so I could install a schluter shower pan. However now the drain sits to high on the pan. Drain is about 2 3/8 from slab. Can defiantly fix but I’m trying to avoid recalling plumber to re do his work and cut into the slab. As this is a friend and he is not charging me. I have a few thoughts in mind but need some clarification and some advice. I could pour concrete and leave it out to where the schluter drain and pan would fit. Or I could use the Oatey drain ( sits 1 1/8 from slab and do the shower with 4to1 mud bed. Prefer to use the pan but willing to the the mud bed. Any advice would be great. Thanks in advance.
Hi, got a question, have ever use a side mounted shower drain. Such as the blue ve brand. Seen it on amazone. If you have have, how did you tie in the shower liner to it. I always see you use a oakly style type of drain.
to prevent the aggregate mixture from falling into the drain and and potentially clogging the P-trap, why not tape over the drain??🤔
Because I'm extremely careful... because nothing gets close to the top of the drain.... and mostly because it's never happened before so why would it happen here
Hi Bob, so you are just building the floor up for the drain, then you put the liner over that and then mortar over the liner. Right? Have you ever had a reaction with the mortar eating the pan liner because of the acidity of the mortar?
Nope that is never happened and those liners are actually meant to have mortar on them so I can't imagine why it would be an issue
your patreon link and paypal link are not in the description
Yeah I've gotten lazy with that lately, thanks for the reminder
StarrTiles daily life, without the pre-slope. 😃
😂 👌
I have a concrete floor and new underground plumbing. How do you suggest I should cut the pipe coming out of the ground for the drain
I just watched a video of yours where you said you don't use concrete. I'm confused. I get it, but still..
Do you have to put a liner, or could you just put redgard?
What to do when the flange is wrong? I've got this... called a plumber to install a back flow flange in the half bath I'm doing. Why? I have never installed one before. Thought it best to have "pro" help with it. Told him tile was going on the floor and wall BEFORE he started. Well, no idea why, maybe he did not like my face of something.... but he put the flange to where I would HAVE TO set the commode on the concrete AND it was recessed in the wall way too far. After calling and getting no response, I had to cut the drywall out to fit the toilet. Install said toilet. And, tile around the toilet. Had to make sure all looked good so my husband did not complain. ALSO... I am praying so hard that the toilet has no issues for the next 30 plus years.
I suppose every trade has its skill level and experience... sounds like you got a newbie. But there are flange spacers, normally they come in about 1/4 inch thickness and installing 1 or 2 of those would've been the solution...OR a flange extender that has a rubber gasket midway and you adjust where needed for 4" or 3" opening.
It is sad that you have to keep your eyes on contractors and correct them nowadays 😬
@@StarrTile I know I could use a flange spacer for a floor mount toilet, but I had no idea I could use them for a back flow. 'sigh' I'll know next time. :/ Thanks for the advice. Also, hope your boy is doing better.
Kick ass
shouldnt that wood be pressure treated?
I stopped using PT years and years ago because of the possibility of twisting and warping over time when it dries
@@StarrTileWherever wood touches concrete , the wood has to be pressure treated.. Good Night.
What do you do when you have a subfloor and same issue?
hello there ,I'm new to this so please forgive my ignorance, out of curiosity I notice that you poured the concrete against the wood ,it's that going to be a problem with moisture for the wood in time ?Thank you !
The layer of concrete was to get up to the bottom of the drain flange, after that your liner goes on top... so even if there was cracking later on with regard to the concrete and wood it will never transfer do the mortar bailing because of the pan liner... but I would never anticipate in encapsulated area that concrete would be able to have movement
Quick question...I am redoing shower on concrete slab...does it have to be a specific type of concrete to fill in the slab around and up to the drain before placing pan liner or just regular cement? This shower originally had no liner so I had to remove the old wet mortar down to the concrete so now the shower floor is about 4 inches below main floor slab and I need to fill in around the drain and smoothen out the floor before putting in the pan liner.
Concrete is usually graded by a PSI strength, the higher the better, having said that quick-setting concrete is what I usually use, one or two bags
So no pre slope at all? Do you add a little slope to your mortar bed/thinset when setting tile?
I just feel having some slope will at the very least speed any water that does make it to the waterproof layer (liquid membrane or rubber liner) to the drain and keep water from standing in the event there is a minor low spot or wrinkle etc in the waterproofing layer.
You feel thats not needed?
If you waterproof the surface of your mortar bed then there is no reason to do pre slope which is another reason that I don't do them, having the mortar bed itself only ensures that you have a slope for your surface tile, any water the penetrates through the grout to the waterproof would dissipate and evaporate between showers so I'm not too concerned about that whatsoever
@@StarrTile- gotcha. Thanks for the reply. I think i still prefer the pre slope but i can definitely see your point.
@@StarrTile - i think were talking about 2 different things.
The traditional pre slope is a mortar bed layed onto the subfloor and covered with a rubber liner and then another mortor bed for setting tile on top of that.
So 2 mortar beds separated by the rubber liner.
With liquid membrane waterproofing i pour or set 1 sloped mortar bed and apply Redgard on top of that and set tile directly to the Redgard.
But i still have a slope to the drain.
I think you are saying that you dont bother with that 1st pre slope bed but do have a sloped mortar bed on top of your water proof membrane, exactly as i do. Correct?
Or are you saying you dont have a slope to the drain at all?
I understood exactly what you were talking about, a pre slope is for the supposed water in water out system which I don't believe functions as intended, therefore I don't do a pre slope because I don't feel that it does any good, going forward in time I waterproof the entire pan surface so therefore the pre slope would be a moot issue. The slope mortar pan that I build is specifically to give the tile a slope for the surface water to run off into the drain
@@StarrTile - roger that. Yes thats what i thought. I may not have worded it correctly however.
Your sloped bed is above the waterproofing layer, which is on the subfloor/slab.
My sloped bed is on the subfloor/slab below the waterproofing layer (Redgard) and i set tile directly to the Redgard, no other mud bed required.
Im binge watching your vids and just trying to understand the various ways you do things depending on situation.
What do I do when I have leaky square shower drain with no downspout underneath. Our bathroom guy appears to literally cut the round drain body/flange to fit a square hole! And detached the 4x4 square drain pan and sat it atop and glued it in! Please help
I don't know what to tell you, sounds like you need to call plumber
To be honest I used to build pre-slopes in my shower floors, but not anymore, because I water proof every thing, so no point in pre-slope 🤷
Your so coy😄
You're totally 100% wrong. if you do Kerdi waterproofing supposedly no pan at all but with last generation style install with a pan liner you need a pre slope and you need weep holes.
If you're that sure no water will see your pan then why even put the pan down? Then you don't believe in weep holes either? So "if" any water "somehow" gets the pan (which you say you don't need) then it's just going to sit there forever. Suppose you use waterproofing painted on red guard or similar, water can somehow still get through over time.
This is especially true on installs over wood sub floors. I've torn out showers with no pre slope and they had plugged up weep holes with thin set, and loads of water just sitting in the pan. Just do it the right way. No red guard on shower floor. Use an acrylic grout if you want less water in pan. If you self diagnosed method was the way to go no manufacturer would recommend a pre slope with a pan liner, but they all do.
Suppose
23 years ago when I started doing this work I always made my showers better than I found them.... I even have a video on my channel called the 100-year shower, built 35 years prior and I was just now doing a renovation, everything done wrong but yet it lasted 35 years, anything that I do going forward will last at least 50 if not better or until the next person decides to do a renovation.
I won't argue the points that you made because it will just be an argument, I basically went through how I deal with showers on the video and explain why, because you don't believe in it doesn't make it wrong and following any manufacturer is a recipe for disaster, Oatey has a video about how to set their drain and I would not do it their way and they also show backer board embedded into the mortar and I do not do that either, we could go on and on about different methods but as I said everything I do is exponentially better than what the last guy did and arguably better then what manufacturers allow for.
I will however touch on a couple of minor subjects you mentioned, I still do a liner through force of habit, but totally not needed, also Redgard will not deteriorate over time.
Can concrete without stones be used for the base?
Concrete without stones is mortar...in this case I used concrete, then after dried pan liner and mortar. But no, concrete isn't appropriate replacement for mortar.
"Fa-pooo"
I think you mean Faux-pas (F'OH-Pah)
This is a Parody tile video.
I’m trying to make sense of it though, if he is saying a preslope doesn’t work then what does the water do in a situation where the drain backs-up…?
Can’t that trap moisture underneath the pan thus resulting in mold growth/efflorescence build up.
Especially on wood subfloor if there’s a plumbing problem (not a tile problem) can’t the water pool and cause an unwanted mildew smell even underneath redguard?
I might be overthinking everything
@ohokayofficial I see what you're saying. But the bigger problem is that he's liquid water proofing up the side of the drain ,on the post slope, which means once it's tiled, the water that gets into the tile and thin set on top of the post slope with liquid waterproofing on top of it. And it will never dry out and it will discolor or have blochiness and smell and mildew. The water cannot get up-and-over the side of the drain.3/8 height. So around a drain done like this, is going to be soaking. Wet all the time. if you didn't take a shower for 2 weeks. Maybe it would dry out, but a regular shower that's getting used every day will never dry out build like this.
Hey All. I have re-positioned the drain on my shower build and the flange has ended up about the same height off the floor as in the video.
Other than cost is there a reason to NOT use self leveling?
Perhaps this channel should be more about HIM and less about his work? Perfect opportunity to install a pre-slope (however redundant that may be) and he chose to do, welp, this?😀