I know you said the Midnight entity was the perfect enemy for the 10th Doctor but this whole scenario is the perfect foil for him. It gets to this character, it makes him break. If Midnight was about how bad it is for the Doctor to be powerless, this is about how dangerous it is for the Doctor to have too much power.
Adelaide : But you said we die. For the future. For the human race! The Doctor : Yes, because there are laws. There are laws of time. Once upon a time there were people in charge of those laws but they died. They all died. Do you know who that leaves? _Me_ It's taken me all these years to realise that the laws of time are _mine_ and they will obey me! Man I love this episode
@Meris The emotion he shows while delivering those lines show how brilliant of an actor Tennant is. Like, if they are all dead and I'm all alone and I've lost so much then why can't I control time. Why can't I take control and save everybody. He realises that all the loss he's been through, he has the power to prevent. His face shows anger that he didn't realise it sooner and the torment that is the part of him trying to hold that power back. The rational side. If he didn't have that side, he wouldn't be in pain taking control, he would be relishing it. But its precisely because he is a rational and ultimately good force, that making this profound decision is tearing him apart. All that is expressed in his face, in just a few words, and that look of pain.
The sequence of events after The Doctor steps out of the T.A.R.D.I.S with the remaining Mars crew shows how far he falls into his hubris and brings a climax to all his grandstanding, showboating, and his growing superiority over other beings throughout his run. 1. It’s very telling that the first thing he says is “Isn’t anyone going to thank me?”.... When has the Doctor ever seriously considered being thanked a requirement? He suddenly expects others to be grateful and voice that gratitude out loud. 2. He’s very nonchalant about Gadget powering down. This Doctor is particularly would be somewhat dismayed to see that such a helpful robot, one that he originally dismissed, is now defunct. Normally, he’d be inclined to make sure a device like that would run indefinitely, as a keepsake for the survivors, but instead he offhandedly remarks that it lost power and coldly moves on. 3. His lack of care that he’s scaring other individuals. The way Mia looks at him in horror before fleeing would normally prompt the Doctor into exposition mode about who he is, here.... he couldn’t care less if someone is unnerved by the power he holds. 4. Just his demeanour. The way he holds himself, the look in his eyes, the air of contempt. He comments on how it’s snowing like always, but it’s....off. Everything the Doctor says and does, however small it may be, exudes unbridled power that he’s not afraid to use against others.... not anymore.
@Maria Blente His ego is out of control. Its what happens when you are arrogant and lordy by nature but there's no one to keep that arrogance and lordliness in check. Some people can be alone but not go insane, keep themselves in check, some people need someone by their side to stop them from going nuts.
Maybe Russell, took in mind the mention of Mr Copper's line back from "Voyage of the Damned" "If you could choose who lives and who dies that would make you a monster", we got to see the full turn of that line, which makes Voyage of the Damned all the more reason thats a great episode it foreshadows the Waters of mars, thanks for hearing me fellow Members of the Council
I was rewatching that some months ago, and that line jumped right out at me. It's interesting what you find when you revist something you haven't seen in a good bit.
It's funny, I guess I never really engaged with many discussions on the episode, but it never even occurred to me to think of Waters of Mars as a "scary" episode. What always stood out to me about it was exactly what you describe here. This was an episode about the Doctor going too far, and showing the audience how dangerous this character can actually be. His conversation with Captain Brook at the end is the whole point of the episode, and an iconic moment in the show. To me, Waters of Mars shows how similar the Doctor is to the Master, and why he needs human companions. The line "I'm not just a survivor, I'm the _winner_ " echoes the Master "I win" and it's eerie to see the Doctor turning "evil." The difference, as always, is the brave and morally grounded human standing next to him. Without her, the Doctor would have become a monster. As Amy says to 11 in A Town Called Mercy, "This is what happens when you travel alone for too long." Now _that's_ scary.
I miss the horror aspect of Doctor Who. The Satan Pit, Blink, Midnight, Waters of Mars. Just miss that feeling of fear of the unknown or whenever the Doctor is has no control
I remember this episode because it was when calls of The Doctor/ the "Time Lord Victorious" being the new Valeyard started to come up. To me, seeing how far The Doctor can go in arrogance totally outweighs the flood in terms of scary.
This episode was jointly written by RTD and Phil Ford - Phil lives a few miles away from me and I have discussed this episode with him - and you have the correct assessment of the idea behind the script - he talks about the same beats that you do - the focus is on taking the Doctor to the height of arrogance and give him a wake up call - this leads him directly into the "maybe I've lived too long" attitude of the finale. Great review :)
@Marion Baggins from what I remember - RTD came in after first draft - but there would have been discussions about the plot and how it fitted into the overarching story of ten's demise.
I always saw the scariness as just incidental to the story; this has always been one of my favorite episodes for just how TRAGIC it is, and how well it portrays what happens when the Doctor goes too far.
I like episodes like this that turn a fairly common episode paradigm on its head. What the Doctor goes through is what most actual time travellers would go through. Imagine you have a time machine, would you immediately go back and start tampering with the past, even if you had good intentions?
That's the human side of it,, we'd do it eventually even if we demand to ourselves we don't. Because the temptation is there, the power is there and eventually we'd succumb to it.
I still find the Flood scary because they're effectively zombies but we don't actually know what they are. Like Midnight it was an unknown enemy that the Doctor couldn't really fight. Their appearance is horrifying, their skin is broken and the water is gushing out but they visibly don't care. Also the fact that they properly run, most zombies just walk and shamble. While slow moving enemies can be threatening its so refreshing to have them run. They can even outrun the Doctor, he has to ride a robot to get a heads start. Also "one drop" got to me because so there's so little difference between living or dying. You could easily avoid a drop but if it touches you for just a second.
The Seventh Doctor was the self-declared 'Time's Champion', but he had the wisdom & detachment to understand the responsibility that would entail (most of the time)... The Time-Lord Victorious is hubris pure & simple & the reason why the 10th Doctor should never have travelled alone. He's too human, with all the resultant flaws.
Those last 10 minutes are always my favorite. There’s a good story anyone can enjoy but for the invested viewer who has slowly picked up on 10’s building arrogance it’s great pay off. I don’t believe new who has ever sunk the doctor to this potentially evil place since.
I always think it was davros who brought this about him. Not being told he was about to die, when you watch them more close together, like you on rewatch you definitely pick up on alot more. What davros done to him, I don't think anyone has hurt him in way before. It really cut deep. Then to left on his own after that was the final nail. He said that the human doctor was full of blood, hate and revenge. Maybe because he felt it too. Maybe he thought giving him to rose would ease those feelings but it didn't, maybe it was easier and he could just tell himself that was the other doctor and not him. Davies tropes, arcs and character development are so much more subtler than Moffetts. So much so there actually really easy to miss.
Yeah I never liked the flood especially. What I always loved about it was how unusual it is for the Doctor to be in a situation where he can't save anyone, the pathos of that, what it does to the Doctor in pushing him to breaking point, and the Doctor's hubris and scary arrogance at the end. I always understood that was the real story the episode is telling.
I absolutly love this episode but not bcs of the flood. I love it bcs of the Doctor, how he breaks the rules and later how he get punished for that. Also I like stories that talk about future of the Earth and It was interesting to hear that bcs this expedision died on Mars, humanity went deeper into the stars.
I agree and they are not the same thing, although one can lead to the other. There's very little these days that I do find scary, I've probably become too desensitised to it over the years. Scares are quick and fleeting, then you get over them. Creepy and unsettling is much better as that can stay with you long after what you're watching is over.
I think the best part of this episode is that it's a 60-minute horror movie, where the characters are all pretty smart and do what's logically the best thing for them to do, AND they die anyway. I think it works because of the seemingly insurmountable odds the characters face, and the fact that, going in to the episode, you really don't know if anyone (besides the Doctor) will survive. Being Doctor Who, you expect there to be a Fires-of-Pompeii type situation where the Doctor saves everyone at the last minute. Of course, that's what happens, but it's made so clear that everyone dies that there is genuine suspense when you don't know the ending. Also, it's a really well paced episode, and the water zombies are one of the scariest things in Nu Who.
This is top ten all time for me. Great villain, great characters, performances were fantastic all around. Lindsey Duncan would have made a great full time companion. The fact that Ten got his comeuppance was well played and well deserved for him given his arrogance at the time.
I think for me what makes The Flood scary is not whether the characters will be infected by it (as you pointed out, you're in the mindset that they will be anyway) but that unlike mindless zombies in most other media, they have a level of intelligence and a motive. Whats seems scary for me is the idea of something like this trying to get to Earth. I'll always find that scarier than Walking Dead level zombies.
This review was very well thought out and touched upon everything I feel is important to the story. I don't really have an emotional connection to the water zombies (other than feeling a heart string tug at the fact that these are real people having their very lives jerked away) but I always go back to the clip of the Time Lord Victorious and how chilling that whole thing was set up and executed. And all the reasons I find it so chilling are all the reasons you stated. Bravo, I really enjoyed your deconstruction. Also, I loved the connection you made to the Fires of Pompeii. The reason it was okay to save someone is because they wouldn't necessarily be remembered specifically. And the saving of the family in Pompeii was born out of Donna's heartbreaking pleading that not everyone had to senselessly die. But, in the Waters of Mars, everyone on that colony was famous for their deaths. It would make a difference if they lived. And it spurred an arrogant sense of superiority in the Doctor which is why I believe that the Timelords originally pledged to not interfere at all. Anyway, those are my added thoughts to everything you said, which I agree with 100%. Thank you for this retrospective.
If this is a duplicate, I'm sorry, SO GLAD you did this review! I'm one of the people urging you to revisit this episode, I thought it might change for you. For me, it is scary, but the main point of it was always the Time Lord Victorious stuff at the end. It's a game-changer.
The water zombies scared me a bit when I first saw the episode, but it was Tenant's 'Time Lord Victorious' attitude he developed that *terrified* me. Still does. I remember this episode because of that moment and what followed immediately after, which was powerful stuff.
Recently, a lots been made in the UK press of David's willingness/openness to return to Who. It's episodes like this that make me speculate about the 60th anniversary, and a return as the Valeyard? But, that's just my silly head-canon.
It was more tragically sad than it was scary for me. That scene where the German lady is watching a pre-recorded message of her family member......whilst the water crashes in around her....always gets me a bit teary.
I just finished reading Russel T Davies' book, if you're interested in his thought process? Basically my understanding is that he said that he and the co-writer were working on the episode as a 'scary mars story', and they were considering getting rid of the episode altogether, wherein the 'changing time' was just a sub-plot type element, when Russel suddenly had the epiphany to make that sub-plot the main plot so that the episode became vital in Tennant's character arc. Then he and the co-writer pretty much went back and re-wrote the whole thing to make it about the Doctor's hubris, and the Flood became the sub-plot in a way. Also, he mentioned that in some of the early editing stages, he had to keep telling people to make the Doctor's "saving the day" moment less epic / triumphant and make it feel like something is wrong, which led to what is in my opinion the best moment of the episode: when the Doctor says "Aren't you going to thank me?" after saving them, and to show that something has gone wrong to usual this time, Mia just runs off in horror and the other guy goes after her to console her. Gah I love this episode!! (pretty much for the same reason you describe in your video, although mind you the original design for the flood was terrifying; you should look it up if you get the chance, and if you haven't already).
I don't understand why some people don't like this episode. This one really left a lasting impression on me. Not in my top 10, but this is still some pretty top-tier material.
What you have to realise about DW is that it's for all audiences so they have to find an inbetween of how scary it can get. The fact the main audience are children naturally means there will be a lot of stuff that won't scare adults, and in fact in this episode RTD was debating whether to put the 'zombies' in because it was on the edge of how scary it can be for children. For me this is simply a masterpiece of an episode with one of Tennant's best performances and biggest twist in 10s chararacter, becoming a god like figure. Love it
This has been one of my favourite episodes since it aired for these very reasons. I still remember eagerly awaiting these specials with the knowledge of Tennant’s imminent departure, the shock of him embracing the Time Lord Victorious, and the gut-punch of the consequences.
No he does not.The Dr is a Time Lord dedicated to doing good while the Master is not. The Dr does WRONG while INTENDING to do good and because he becomes too much of an arrogant God like figure who has forgotten the importance of limits in his haste to do right. However you are right that the effects of his arrogance are LIKE those of the Master but with different intentions. I very much dislike the mediocre Dr Who eras with the Valeyard etc and bad Dr Who. A very wrong development by those less good producers (see 1980's and post RTD who think the Dr can be anyone or do anything which is a fatal flaw and explains why both old DR Who and now Nu are again in decline. Just as with Disney's Star Wars; Soulless!
Oh man, the ending to this episode is just brutal. It's something pretty much no other DW episode has done before, at least in the revolved era. Also, gotta say, it's really only scary up until the monsters are revealed. After that you already know what they look like and it just doesn't have the same effect. Still a bit unnerving, but not nearly as scary.
The moment in this episode where Steffi plays the recorded message from her kids knowing she's about to get infected is one of the only "Doctor Who" moments that genuinely get me weeping every time. I know I've commented this on one of your videos this week already, but I thought I'd mention it again.
Same here, I rarely feel that affected by Doctor Who, even during the parts that other people find sad (Rose on the beach, Donna getting mind-wiped, Amy and Rory taken by the Angels, etc). But that moment where a character we've only known for one episode is facing her death and the tragedy of never seeing her children again brought tears to my eyes. I think that's why I like this episode: it's not scary, but I actually felt the humanity of those characters in those tragic moments more than I did in other episodes.
I loved the relationship between the Captain & 1st Officer/pilot. They manage to imply a long & difficult relationship.....without needing to say what caused it.
I agree, a lot of this story addressed the question “Why is there some stuff the Doctor can’t change?” The problem for me is that I don’t think it did a very good job of playing with that question. Frankly, I was happier with the previous 40-odd years of “He just can’t, ok?”
The thing about Waters of Mars for me is, it's not super scary and you're right, it's basically a zombie movie kind of thing, but what makes it a little scary is that it only takes a drop, a tiny drop for you to be affected, like with that one guy who stops, and he's like "I'm sorry captain, but a drop touched me". Also, they can blast water from themselves at people (or at least that's what I remember, I could be wrong), so they're kind of an upgraded zombie in that sense, so I understand people being scared of it, but I do agree that you're right, it's not extremely scary. The ending is very memorable and it's the reason why I enjoy it.
Zombies have always terrified me (well I'm pretty much scared of everything) so I can't actually watch this episode anymore, I watched it once and it gave me nightmares! 🙈
I think people view it as scary because it’s water which is something so vital to survival that if there was even a chance something like this could happen irl it would essentially be the end of the world
It would be very scary if you were a *cat* XD It wouldn't even have to be water-that-does-scary-things. It could just be water. To me the idea that there's water coming everywhere can you can't get wet is... menacing. But that's not necessarily the same thing as scary. Still works for me, because it's that tension and suspense I crave, not necessarily the same thing fear. The suspense to me in this story was always "what is The Doctor going to do", not "what is the Flood going to do". I need to find a way to watch some of these old series again sometime soon... I just don't remember what account I had them linked to.
Whenever people talked about this episode being scary, I always thought they were talking about the Doctor having his "Time Lord Victorious" moment and how scary HE became -- the horrifying POTENTIAL of his attitude. It literally never occurred to me that they were just talking about the Flood, which I considered - not exactly forgettable, but a fairly run-of-the-mill Who enemy.
The reason I liked this episode so much was because it was so blatantly Anti-Doctor. It was a direct attack on the Doctor himself, to the core of his being. It was almost like the entirety of Tennent's Doctor was a quasi-deconstruction of the Doctor, tearing down all of the "Good" of the Doctor and showing him that he needs to change himself, and the more he tried to resist, the more potent the message became. So many of his episodes seemed to be the universe saying "You think you are "clever"? And that this makes you superior? Clever your way out of this." as a way to teach him humility... and I'm not entirely certain that the Doctor learns this lesson, in the end. Tennents Doctor does, perhaps, but that lesson may not have passed on fully to Smith and Capaldi's Doctors. (Which is probably because of the new writing team and the new direction that always comes with a new Doctor, either immediately or soon after the new Doctor is introduced, I'll admit.)
I know the initial mission statement of this series was to review episodes that hadn't been covered on the channel before but would you consider reviewing episodes post Day of the Doctor again in case your views have changed? I've recently been doing a rewatch and a fair few Capaldi and late Smith episodes have gone up and down in my estimations.
I agree, it seems that this episode was a build up to that one scene in the end, where he seems totally uncaring, just concerned that he win (hence the Time Lord Victorious)... and then he's smacked down for it by Adelaide's defiant action. I see that others have tied this in with Mr. Copper's line about having power over life and death, how it would make someone a monster, then the Doctor's powerlessness with the Midnight creature... topped off by the Doctor overdoing it with this episode and how true Mr. Copper's comment was. The Doctor can absolutely be the most dangerous being in the universe if he loses sight of his sense of morals and boundaries.
I love your take on this episode.Just great.It's not a monster story.Mr. Davies always has has several layers in his works. The 10th Doctor is just so tired of losing the people he loves, that this time, no one will die, not on his watch. I am not saying his right, but this is his emotional state right now. I did not realize, until you said it, that the captain killed herself, not to right history, but bring the Doctor back to reality.Our Doctor, who thinks himself as God, that is the Monster. thank you, Nathan for putting so much thought into this work.Take care.
Watching this as it aired as a kid, this stood out as one of the philosophical pillars of the show and of who the doctor really is. The flood was a minor plot thing, but especially the end was a game changer. Really great episode, really great story.
Somethings just occurred to me that could have made this episode a bit more scary, things like sweat, condensation, tears, etc being mistaken for the infected water and causing mistrust between the characters.
David Tenant was very good at portraying a Doctor with a Dark Side. The Last 10 minutes where he breaks his own rules is truly shocking and wraps up that plot of the Doctor Darkside . The Shock of the Captain killing herself to protect the timeline is really disturbing.
I think that the creepiest thing about the Flood is how, unless someone like the Doctor is around, you're 100% screwed (and even then hardly anyone survives the story) as being overtaken by them is somewhat inevitable as Humans NEED water to survive so it's either drink water and get infected or die of thirst.
Personally, I had never found this episode to be scary. And ever since watching this episode for the first time I felt that the Doctor clearly _was_ doing the right thing in trying to alter history as he saw fit, for I've always had faith in his intelligence and his better judgement. But I haven't re-watched it in quite a while, and perhaps I would've realised this stuff myself had I watched it now, but your *phenomenal* analysis of _why_ Captain Brooke killed herself completely won me over. I totally agree that feeling superior is the one thing that nobody should be allowed to do. I guess I just never saw the Doctor as being _actually_ arrogant (I'd always assumed it was a comical, semi-conscious way to make himself feel better and let out steam, not that I condone that kind of thing but I enjoy it on TV), but, yeah, as much as I love the guy, he cannot be allowed to feel like he is superior to anyone. Thanks, dude! This has truly been an eye-opener for me, a very welcome one!
This is probably my favourite Dr Who episode, and I’ve never seen it as scary, for me it’s totally a set up for the emotional turmoil and ego war that the Dr is going through during the episode, the whole “timelord victorious” storyline and his desire for power over his own fate followed by his later admission of going to far leading into his own character finale is incredibly powerful and as a man who 100% believes Davis Tennant is the greatest Doctor of all time, it just hits me differently from any other episode
I love all your points about this episode. I just want to add, for those of us who find it scary, its the same reason final destination is scary. It's the inevitability, and the helplessness. It's paralyzing because you analyse every choice and think 'which ones took them to their death?'.
At 10:27 I refer you to what old Mr. Kopper said to the Doctor at the end of Voyage of the Damned: "Doctor, if you could choose who lives and who dies, that would make you a monster."
It is a scary story. The Time Lord Victorious is a scary concept. Once forgotten most of the rest of the episode, but the Time Lord Victorious has always stuck out to me. That's what could happen to our hero if left unchecked. I'd love to see it explored again further in a later episode, probably with a future Doctor
Another slap in the face at the end is when the other two characters run away from him scared.. And the captain snaps back 'how do you get to decide who the little people are?' Something along those lines.. I LOVED this episode because of the deep running emotions, complex moral dilemmas, and the doctors character journey. They were fantastic. I agree i wouldn't rate this one of the scariest either but still good.
Now thats a really good question. However, I would say Halo's Flood its way more intellgent than this Flood. Plus Halo's flood makes you live pure agony before you fully consumed by it.
@@lonewolf6884 Dunno-- this one wanted the waters of Earth, so it had a purpose. Purpose implies intelligence of a sort. Halo's Flood just wanted to eat its way across the Universe.
I have a love / hate relationship with this episode ... simply because it's THE moment we say goodbye to the Tennant Doctor we knew and loved ... even though he had a couple more episodes to go. His Doctor was ALWAYS destined to have an angry power-crazed destiny, you could see it in him from the very beginning ... but I still miss him to this day. Tennant will probably always be my favourite Doctor.
Yay. I've caught up with my rewatch, this episode is also my most recent. I'm thinking of mixing it up a little bit though and try watching 'the day of the doctor' next, see it from 10s time line, something tells me it wont quite, fit (abit like his suit in 'day of the doctor' 🤭) but I'll see. For, the best episode of the specials, still don't rank it quite as superior as most do though. I'd never thought of that about lindsay's characters suicide (sorry cant think of the characters name so I'm gonna call her Lindsey) It had always bugged me a little, I thought "but it's changed! The doctor said her granddaughter goes out there as if trying to meet her, but shes not out there, she died at home. If that was my grandmother who had never been suicidal before, killed herself after going to Mars and back, I don't think I'd be so keen to head out there. You put a totally different spin on in though. Of course there were 2 survivors, surly they would have explained what happened and why she had to do what she did. That would make me more determined to go out there or it would have meant she died for nothing. I would have liked to have seen some reapacution for what he did though, I don't mean on a personal level but on a time/history level. 1 more thing that bugs me slightly, is how did he know, just because the timelords arnt around anymore, he could get away with it. The timelords wasnt around when Rose saved her dad, or when River refuses to kill him? Just because hes not on earth? He took them back to earth though. Its seems theres several rules about time and even the doctor doesn't even know what they are.
I love Waters of Mars for precisely the reason you say. It’s not about the water zombies. It’s that ending. It’s that glimpse of who The Doctor could be without any sense of constraints or felling that the rules don’t apply to him. Most terrifying thing in the episode.
Also, I don’t think it’s scary in the traditional way but the things I find scary about it seem to be different. I find their lack of humanity scary. Any villain the doctor cannot reason with or properly understand I find scary. We know what they can do and we know the doctors usual methods won’t work here so I find a villain that is stripped of humanity very scary
I agree with you completely. Never scared me either. The ending was the whole point that it was building to. Sorry you had to give caveats for half the review because of the past. XD
I loved this episode the first time I saw it. I agree, it's not scary in the traditional sense. The scare for me is the turning of the Doctor. That really impacted me on that first viewing and on every time I've seen it since. Fires of Pompeii is extremely relevant here - from a human perspective that was looking at a past scenario whereas this episode is pointing towards a future situation, However, from the viewpoint of the Doctor, they're all the same - they're just different fixed point in time. As I say, the conversation between Adelaide and the Doctor on Earth at the end is magnificent in terms of writing, acting and it's impact on how a Time Lord can over-reach his powers and the devastating affect that can have on those around him.
I am also scared from this story, but I am more terrified thinking how it ended, and how someone with such a power, could simply with a knock of his thumbs destroy anything just because he thinks he is supreme
Only 6 mins in, but nah, I never thought it was particularly scary either. The reason this episode is one of my favorite is because it seems to focus on the tragedy of these people's lives. I cant name another episode immediately that portrays characters death as quite so sad. You mentioned the Vashta Nerada, and sure, while Miss Evangelista's death was played pretty sorrowfully, characters like 'Other Dave' are brushed off very quickly once gone. But this episode literally shows us their obituary's. The Doctor is mourning for them before they're dead, he mentions how young Mia Bennett is. Stefi Ehrlich cries as he watches a video of her kids knowing she's dying, its inevitable and she'll never see them again. Roman's calm terror when he's infected by one drop, it's awful. But oddly a beautiful look into some kinda physiology. Couple this with the Doctor's apparent helplessness in being able to save them all, and it's amazing. I also kinda liked the Doctor's darker side coming out, his determination to have time bend to his will, it was fascinating watching him pushed to that point. I think it's a shame he had to regenerate so soon after that, as I'd have love to have seen more. Edit1: Also, yeah, it partly reminds me of 'Midnight', in the same why that one of the reasons that episode is so well liked is because it's plot is pushed partly by the psychology of the scared people surrounding the monster. I'd suggest it was a similar case here? Edit2: Finished the ep! Awesome to see i'm not alone in some of these ideas xD
My biggest question for this episode would be: if they're producing water, why are they so dehydrated that their lips look like that? Also I'm still upset by the overall outcome. Real tragic
I always thought it was because it wasn't so much they were producing it, as the liquid in their bodies was being extracted to fuel their water effects.
I'm not too big on the "lonely god" vibe that they were going for with the 10th Doctor, which might explain why I liked the last season with Whittaker more than most. I like the Doctor when (s)he has ego but isn't an egomaniac.
water always finds its way - great episode - especially the doctor and his arc in the episode - creepiest bit for me was the origin of the water infection, like someone, something (maybe the ice warriers?) buried it in the ice underground on mars as the only way to neutralise/postpone it, it's never explained properly and left up to your imagination ....
I first watched this episode when I was about seven or eight. It scared the living hell out of me. In my opinion it shows very much what the show is about. Time travel, space, and scary monsters, all three elements are included in this story, so I think it's a great introduction to Doctor Who for those who are newcomers, but that's just me and I guess I'm a bit biased because it was the first episode I ever saw.
I've always loved this episode but i completely agree with you - besides one or two times it's not very scary, but I don't think it's meant to be! I've never loved it because it was scary, I've always loved it mainly because of those las 1O-15 minutes. Actually, I think you are half right, she also kills herself to preserve the future4. Nothing changes much, only one detail changes, the rest is all the same. Also watching it a second time I actually thought maybe the Ood killed her? Not maliciously, just for the sake of preserving history. I think it was a little ambiguous. At least it seemed so the second time I watched it.
I just saw this episode and that’s why I like it, I thought it was a pretty standard Who adventure until he started playing god and that was where the meat was. I loved seeing the Doctor become the Master a little, also explaining more why he needs a companion. The water creatures are scary but it isn’t scary enough to note
For me it's the relentlessness of the danger. They did try to deal with the 'Not all, but any' aspect, by talking about the filters early on. It was their doomed nature, everyone knows Pompeii, but to put that in some context where we as an audience don't know what happens, but the consequences are terrible. People trying their best... being their best in the most extreme of circumstances... Oddly, reminding me of a Babylon 5 Quote, as Mollari described humanity during the Minbari war. _"The humans I think, Knew they were doomed. But, where another race would surrender to despair, the humans fought back with even greater strength. They made the Minbari fight for every inch of space. In my life, I have never seen anything like it.... They would weep, They would pray, they would say good-bye to their loved ones... Then throw themselves without fear or hesitation, at the very face of death itself. Never Surrendering. No-one who saw them fighting against the inevitable, could help but be moved to tears by their courage, their stubborn nobility. ... When they ran out of ships, they used guns, when they ran out of guns they used knives, sticks and barehands. They were magnificent. I only hope when it is my time, I may die with half as much dignity as I saw in their eyes at the end."_ ua-cam.com/video/DeNBJ5o-b7s/v-deo.html Something of Don Quixote, tragic and magnificent... It's not scary... It has a family audience, the creatures can't be too horrific.
Probably an unpopular opinion, but this is certainly my least favourite of the Tennant specials and probably my lowest rated Tennant story full stop. I agree with what you say here in the review about the purpose of the episode, I just don't feel that it achieves it - if it takes me 30 seconds to come up with a work-around, I expect the Doctor (and the writers) to be able to come up with something at some point. Simple version - this is a fixed point in time, their deaths are important for what they inspire. Fine, rescue them, but explain that earth has to believe them dead so they cannot go back to earth, but the universe is a full place where they can live out happy lives (which would add an interesting dimension to the grand-daughter(?) becoming a space explorer because she always on some level imagined the captain was 'still out there somewhere'). Then have the Doctor go back to the Tardis, feeling smug, check up on historical records of how their lives turned out, but it all ended badly for them anyway - PTSD without family and friends around them - and have that crush him instead. Weaker ending, but at least it deals with the plot hole. Or come up with a 'fixed point in time' that isn't so easy to simply work around - maybe the recording of their deaths is an important historical artifact that 'anchors' the fixed point - then the full hubris ending can actually work. Whatever. (I feel like you're maybe right about this episode having been written backwards - and I think maybe that is why they never actually examined whether it made sense when run forwards again...) As for Captain 'save us, save us, you're a bastard for not saving us - oh, you've saved us but you're arrogant about it so now I'm going to kill myself to prove nothing' - nah, don't like it, don't think it's well written, don't think it's even particularly plausible (also rather cheapens suicide IMO, making it something someone does just to spite someone they don't like the attitude of, never mind that they've just broken every rule of their society to save you...). Maybe if, as you suggest, they'd followed with another story as the Doctor continues riding that high of arrogance, it could've worked better for me - I still doubt I'd have thought highly of Waters, but maybe I'd have felt they'd better achieved the story intention. As you say, I can see why they didn't go that route, but I really don't feel this story stands particularly well on its own merits.
Speaking as someone who has tried to kill themselves, I also find the notion of Adeline commiting suicide as an empowering defiance against the Doctor disgusting.....
Well, for me is not really the scariness the point of the episode. And, IMHO, neither the turning of the Doctor (that I found a little OOC, even if considering WHERE is put the story in his timeline is more comprensible). The point for me is to show the power of the Timelord and how this is not just a cool funny bouncing thing but a real potentially distructive thing that can REALLY change and affect universe and people lifes without they even have the choice. Here the Timelord decides for people, here he decides for Adelaide and nothing of her words or actins can change her fate. To be honest, 10th Doctor decides for people along all his timeline, but this time he doesn't do that in the name of superior universally recognized rules or a greatest good. He decides to do this in name of himself. THIS is the scary part: The tragicity of the fallen hero is not him breaking bad, is the hero deciding to use is power for the sake of power in itself. I can do this so I do, in the name of my specific morality with no regards of people desires nor of a greatest good (to preserve time and history). And, for me, the resolution of Adelaide is the scariest part. The lengst that people are going to in order to stop him...and it's more effective because it hits Doctor whole nature. I don't care if stupid Moffat decides that Doctor has to mean soldier in a alien language.... in the beginning, the Doctor is the Doctor because his ultimate point is to heal people... to have someone to kill himself JUST TO show him that he was so wrong to put someone in the situation to have to (not a collaterale error, tihs time is not a indirect effect of his actions. It's him, brutal and direct) is a smack directly on the face and on his more deeper and truer nature. For me this episode is scary not for what it shows but for the infinitive potential threats it implies.
I loved it. The only thing I ever found scary about it, was that it showed how dangerous powerful people can be if there are nobody to hold them accountable. In Waters of Mars he snaps. To many deaths. To much pain. To much power. Later 11 touch on the danger in a way "Good men don't need rules. Today is not the day to find out why I have so many."
This Hugo-winning episode is in my top ten for all Doctor Who. For me, it answers the question "Why does the Doctor go out o his way to try to save/redeem the Master?" The answer: Because now, we know that the Doctor is the other side of the same coin as the Master. They are mirror-images of each other. This is why the Master is always after more lives in Classic Who ("I don't want to go."). The Timelord Victorious is the Doctor at his most alien, his most arrogant, his most isolated, his most Master-like. I don't agree that the motivation is entirely fixed on bringing down the Doctor; her grandchild figures into it a lot. We grannies would do just about anything for our grandchildren! This show tells us that the worst Hell is the one we carry inside us.
I know you said the Midnight entity was the perfect enemy for the 10th Doctor but this whole scenario is the perfect foil for him. It gets to this character, it makes him break. If Midnight was about how bad it is for the Doctor to be powerless, this is about how dangerous it is for the Doctor to have too much power.
Adelaide : But you said we die. For the future. For the human race!
The Doctor : Yes, because there are laws. There are laws of time. Once upon a time there were people in charge of those laws but they died. They all died. Do you know who that leaves? _Me_ It's taken me all these years to realise that the laws of time are _mine_ and they will obey me!
Man I love this episode
Adelaide: The Time Lord victorious is wrong.
Doctor: That's for me to decide...
@Meris The emotion he shows while delivering those lines show how brilliant of an actor Tennant is. Like, if they are all dead and I'm all alone and I've lost so much then why can't I control time. Why can't I take control and save everybody. He realises that all the loss he's been through, he has the power to prevent. His face shows anger that he didn't realise it sooner and the torment that is the part of him trying to hold that power back. The rational side. If he didn't have that side, he wouldn't be in pain taking control, he would be relishing it. But its precisely because he is a rational and ultimately good force, that making this profound decision is tearing him apart. All that is expressed in his face, in just a few words, and that look of pain.
The sequence of events after The Doctor steps out of the T.A.R.D.I.S with the remaining Mars crew shows how far he falls into his hubris and brings a climax to all his grandstanding, showboating, and his growing superiority over other beings throughout his run.
1. It’s very telling that the first thing he says is “Isn’t anyone going to thank me?”.... When has the Doctor ever seriously considered being thanked a requirement? He suddenly expects others to be grateful and voice that gratitude out loud.
2. He’s very nonchalant about Gadget powering down. This Doctor is particularly would be somewhat dismayed to see that such a helpful robot, one that he originally dismissed, is now defunct. Normally, he’d be inclined to make sure a device like that would run indefinitely, as a keepsake for the survivors, but instead he offhandedly remarks that it lost power and coldly moves on.
3. His lack of care that he’s scaring other individuals. The way Mia looks at him in horror before fleeing would normally prompt the Doctor into exposition mode about who he is, here.... he couldn’t care less if someone is unnerved by the power he holds.
4. Just his demeanour. The way he holds himself, the look in his eyes, the air of contempt. He comments on how it’s snowing like always, but it’s....off. Everything the Doctor says and does, however small it may be, exudes unbridled power that he’s not afraid to use against others.... not anymore.
*couldn't care less
@Maria Blente His ego is out of control. Its what happens when you are arrogant and lordy by nature but there's no one to keep that arrogance and lordliness in check. Some people can be alone but not go insane, keep themselves in check, some people need someone by their side to stop them from going nuts.
Maybe Russell, took in mind the mention of Mr Copper's line back from "Voyage of the Damned" "If you could choose who lives and who dies that would make you a monster", we got to see the full turn of that line, which makes Voyage of the Damned all the more reason thats a great episode it foreshadows the Waters of mars, thanks for hearing me fellow Members of the Council
I was rewatching that some months ago, and that line jumped right out at me. It's interesting what you find when you revist something you haven't seen in a good bit.
Dang that's a good point.
It's funny, I guess I never really engaged with many discussions on the episode, but it never even occurred to me to think of Waters of Mars as a "scary" episode. What always stood out to me about it was exactly what you describe here. This was an episode about the Doctor going too far, and showing the audience how dangerous this character can actually be. His conversation with Captain Brook at the end is the whole point of the episode, and an iconic moment in the show.
To me, Waters of Mars shows how similar the Doctor is to the Master, and why he needs human companions. The line "I'm not just a survivor, I'm the _winner_ " echoes the Master "I win" and it's eerie to see the Doctor turning "evil." The difference, as always, is the brave and morally grounded human standing next to him. Without her, the Doctor would have become a monster. As Amy says to 11 in A Town Called Mercy, "This is what happens when you travel alone for too long." Now _that's_ scary.
Martha: He never stops; he never stays; he never asks to be thanked.
The Doctor: Isn't anyone going to thank me?
The scariest part of this episode isn't the Flood - it's the Doctor. The man who never asks to be thanked goes full "isnt anyone going to thank me?"
THE TIME LORD VICTORIOUS, probably one of the darkest moments of the doctor as a character.
David Tennat would be a _chilling_ incarnation of the Master.
I miss the horror aspect of Doctor Who. The Satan Pit, Blink, Midnight, Waters of Mars.
Just miss that feeling of fear of the unknown or whenever the Doctor is has no control
I remember this episode because it was when calls of The Doctor/ the "Time Lord Victorious" being the new Valeyard started to come up. To me, seeing how far The Doctor can go in arrogance totally outweighs the flood in terms of scary.
I can't believe it's nearly 10 years since this episode aired.
DavRoss The Whovian I wanna be 10 years old again
I remember watching this episode when It aired back in 2010 time flies.
This episode was jointly written by RTD and Phil Ford - Phil lives a few miles away from me and I have discussed this episode with him - and you have the correct assessment of the idea behind the script - he talks about the same beats that you do - the focus is on taking the Doctor to the height of arrogance and give him a wake up call - this leads him directly into the "maybe I've lived too long" attitude of the finale.
Great review :)
How much did Phil write of this compared to RTD?!!!
@Marion Baggins from what I remember - RTD came in after first draft - but there would have been discussions about the plot and how it fitted into the overarching story of ten's demise.
@@thebasementfilmgroup Thx
I always saw the scariness as just incidental to the story; this has always been one of my favorite episodes for just how TRAGIC it is, and how well it portrays what happens when the Doctor goes too far.
I like episodes like this that turn a fairly common episode paradigm on its head. What the Doctor goes through is what most actual time travellers would go through. Imagine you have a time machine, would you immediately go back and start tampering with the past, even if you had good intentions?
That's the human side of it,, we'd do it eventually even if we demand to ourselves we don't. Because the temptation is there, the power is there and eventually we'd succumb to it.
I still find the Flood scary because they're effectively zombies but we don't actually know what they are. Like Midnight it was an unknown enemy that the Doctor couldn't really fight. Their appearance is horrifying, their skin is broken and the water is gushing out but they visibly don't care.
Also the fact that they properly run, most zombies just walk and shamble. While slow moving enemies can be threatening its so refreshing to have them run. They can even outrun the Doctor, he has to ride a robot to get a heads start.
Also "one drop" got to me because so there's so little difference between living or dying. You could easily avoid a drop but if it touches you for just a second.
The Seventh Doctor was the self-declared 'Time's Champion', but he had the wisdom & detachment to understand the responsibility that would entail (most of the time)... The Time-Lord Victorious is hubris pure & simple & the reason why the 10th Doctor should never have travelled alone. He's too human, with all the resultant flaws.
Those last 10 minutes are always my favorite. There’s a good story anyone can enjoy but for the invested viewer who has slowly picked up on 10’s building arrogance it’s great pay off. I don’t believe new who has ever sunk the doctor to this potentially evil place since.
I always think it was davros who brought this about him. Not being told he was about to die, when you watch them more close together, like you on rewatch you definitely pick up on alot more. What davros done to him, I don't think anyone has hurt him in way before. It really cut deep. Then to left on his own after that was the final nail.
He said that the human doctor was full of blood, hate and revenge. Maybe because he felt it too. Maybe he thought giving him to rose would ease those feelings but it didn't, maybe it was easier and he could just tell himself that was the other doctor and not him.
Davies tropes, arcs and character development are so much more subtler than Moffetts. So much so there actually really easy to miss.
karen stewart I agree so much . Davies will always be my personal favorite showrunner
Yeah I never liked the flood especially. What I always loved about it was how unusual it is for the Doctor to be in a situation where he can't save anyone, the pathos of that, what it does to the Doctor in pushing him to breaking point, and the Doctor's hubris and scary arrogance at the end. I always understood that was the real story the episode is telling.
Automatically one of my fav Council of Geeks intros. The delivery was perfect. Jaunty and creepy knowing the context.
I absolutly love this episode but not bcs of the flood. I love it bcs of the Doctor, how he breaks the rules and later how he get punished for that. Also I like stories that talk about future of the Earth and It was interesting to hear that bcs this expedision died on Mars, humanity went deeper into the stars.
I always found this creepy, not scary. Not quite the same thing.
I agree and they are not the same thing, although one can lead to the other. There's very little these days that I do find scary, I've probably become too desensitised to it over the years. Scares are quick and fleeting, then you get over them. Creepy and unsettling is much better as that can stay with you long after what you're watching is over.
I think the best part of this episode is that it's a 60-minute horror movie, where the characters are all pretty smart and do what's logically the best thing for them to do, AND they die anyway. I think it works because of the seemingly insurmountable odds the characters face, and the fact that, going in to the episode, you really don't know if anyone (besides the Doctor) will survive. Being Doctor Who, you expect there to be a Fires-of-Pompeii type situation where the Doctor saves everyone at the last minute. Of course, that's what happens, but it's made so clear that everyone dies that there is genuine suspense when you don't know the ending.
Also, it's a really well paced episode, and the water zombies are one of the scariest things in Nu Who.
This is top ten all time for me. Great villain, great characters, performances were fantastic all around. Lindsey Duncan would have made a great full time companion. The fact that Ten got his comeuppance was well played and well deserved for him given his arrogance at the time.
Oh definitely! She’d defo put him in his place when he got too cocky!
I think for me what makes The Flood scary is not whether the characters will be infected by it (as you pointed out, you're in the mindset that they will be anyway) but that unlike mindless zombies in most other media, they have a level of intelligence and a motive. Whats seems scary for me is the idea of something like this trying to get to Earth. I'll always find that scarier than Walking Dead level zombies.
This review was very well thought out and touched upon everything I feel is important to the story. I don't really have an emotional connection to the water zombies (other than feeling a heart string tug at the fact that these are real people having their very lives jerked away) but I always go back to the clip of the Time Lord Victorious and how chilling that whole thing was set up and executed. And all the reasons I find it so chilling are all the reasons you stated. Bravo, I really enjoyed your deconstruction.
Also, I loved the connection you made to the Fires of Pompeii. The reason it was okay to save someone is because they wouldn't necessarily be remembered specifically. And the saving of the family in Pompeii was born out of Donna's heartbreaking pleading that not everyone had to senselessly die. But, in the Waters of Mars, everyone on that colony was famous for their deaths. It would make a difference if they lived. And it spurred an arrogant sense of superiority in the Doctor which is why I believe that the Timelords originally pledged to not interfere at all.
Anyway, those are my added thoughts to everything you said, which I agree with 100%. Thank you for this retrospective.
The Time Lord victorious is wrong Doctor!!!
That’s for me to decide.
If this is a duplicate, I'm sorry, SO GLAD you did this review! I'm one of the people urging you to revisit this episode, I thought it might change for you. For me, it is scary, but the main point of it was always the Time Lord Victorious stuff at the end. It's a game-changer.
The water zombies scared me a bit when I first saw the episode, but it was Tenant's 'Time Lord Victorious' attitude he developed that *terrified* me. Still does. I remember this episode because of that moment and what followed immediately after, which was powerful stuff.
Recently, a lots been made in the UK press of David's willingness/openness to return to Who. It's episodes like this that make me speculate about the 60th anniversary, and a return as the Valeyard?
But, that's just my silly head-canon.
It was more tragically sad than it was scary for me. That scene where the German lady is watching a pre-recorded message of her family member......whilst the water crashes in around her....always gets me a bit teary.
I just finished reading Russel T Davies' book, if you're interested in his thought process? Basically my understanding is that he said that he and the co-writer were working on the episode as a 'scary mars story', and they were considering getting rid of the episode altogether, wherein the 'changing time' was just a sub-plot type element, when Russel suddenly had the epiphany to make that sub-plot the main plot so that the episode became vital in Tennant's character arc. Then he and the co-writer pretty much went back and re-wrote the whole thing to make it about the Doctor's hubris, and the Flood became the sub-plot in a way. Also, he mentioned that in some of the early editing stages, he had to keep telling people to make the Doctor's "saving the day" moment less epic / triumphant and make it feel like something is wrong, which led to what is in my opinion the best moment of the episode: when the Doctor says "Aren't you going to thank me?" after saving them, and to show that something has gone wrong to usual this time, Mia just runs off in horror and the other guy goes after her to console her. Gah I love this episode!! (pretty much for the same reason you describe in your video, although mind you the original design for the flood was terrifying; you should look it up if you get the chance, and if you haven't already).
Have you got the Matt Smith costume lined up yet, it's getting closer!
I don't understand why some people don't like this episode. This one really left a lasting impression on me. Not in my top 10, but this is still some pretty top-tier material.
I’ve always found it eerie
Gotta say, I love your cold open gags, smart analysis and your gracious way with other points of view. Very well done on the channel!
What you have to realise about DW is that it's for all audiences so they have to find an inbetween of how scary it can get. The fact the main audience are children naturally means there will be a lot of stuff that won't scare adults, and in fact in this episode RTD was debating whether to put the 'zombies' in because it was on the edge of how scary it can be for children. For me this is simply a masterpiece of an episode with one of Tennant's best performances and biggest twist in 10s chararacter, becoming a god like figure. Love it
That book, "the writer's tale", by the way is an excellent read. I know you'd love it
“Water always wins.”
This has been one of my favourite episodes since it aired for these very reasons.
I still remember eagerly awaiting these specials with the knowledge of Tennant’s imminent departure, the shock of him embracing the Time Lord Victorious, and the gut-punch of the consequences.
I’ve been waiting since episode one for you to come back to this
The Doctor becomes like the Master.
No he does not.The Dr is a Time Lord dedicated to doing good while the Master is not. The Dr does WRONG while INTENDING to do good and because he becomes too much of an arrogant God like figure who has forgotten the importance of limits in his haste to do right. However you are right that the effects of his arrogance are LIKE those of the Master but with different intentions. I very much dislike the mediocre Dr Who eras with the Valeyard etc and bad Dr Who. A very wrong development by those less good producers (see 1980's and post RTD who think the Dr can be anyone or do anything which is a fatal flaw and explains why both old DR Who and now Nu are again in decline. Just as with Disney's Star Wars; Soulless!
The Doctor should know that the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.
This episode would make a great novelisation!
Oh man, the ending to this episode is just brutal. It's something pretty much no other DW episode has done before, at least in the revolved era.
Also, gotta say, it's really only scary up until the monsters are revealed. After that you already know what they look like and it just doesn't have the same effect. Still a bit unnerving, but not nearly as scary.
Except that the real monster was there all the time-- the Doctor.
What should scare people is not some water zombies but the doctor feeling he’s god.
The moment in this episode where Steffi plays the recorded message from her kids knowing she's about to get infected is one of the only "Doctor Who" moments that genuinely get me weeping every time.
I know I've commented this on one of your videos this week already, but I thought I'd mention it again.
Same here, I rarely feel that affected by Doctor Who, even during the parts that other people find sad (Rose on the beach, Donna getting mind-wiped, Amy and Rory taken by the Angels, etc). But that moment where a character we've only known for one episode is facing her death and the tragedy of never seeing her children again brought tears to my eyes. I think that's why I like this episode: it's not scary, but I actually felt the humanity of those characters in those tragic moments more than I did in other episodes.
I loved the relationship between the Captain & 1st Officer/pilot. They manage to imply a long & difficult relationship.....without needing to say what caused it.
Could you do a ranking of top 10 supporting casts (they must only appear in one story) as I agree, the impossible planet crew are phenominal!
I agree, a lot of this story addressed the question “Why is there some stuff the Doctor can’t change?” The problem for me is that I don’t think it did a very good job of playing with that question. Frankly, I was happier with the previous 40-odd years of “He just can’t, ok?”
The thing about Waters of Mars for me is, it's not super scary and you're right, it's basically a zombie movie kind of thing, but what makes it a little scary is that it only takes a drop, a tiny drop for you to be affected, like with that one guy who stops, and he's like "I'm sorry captain, but a drop touched me". Also, they can blast water from themselves at people (or at least that's what I remember, I could be wrong), so they're kind of an upgraded zombie in that sense, so I understand people being scared of it, but I do agree that you're right, it's not extremely scary.
The ending is very memorable and it's the reason why I enjoy it.
Zombies have always terrified me (well I'm pretty much scared of everything) so I can't actually watch this episode anymore, I watched it once and it gave me nightmares! 🙈
I think people view it as scary because it’s water which is something so vital to survival that if there was even a chance something like this could happen irl it would essentially be the end of the world
It would be very scary if you were a *cat* XD
It wouldn't even have to be water-that-does-scary-things. It could just be water.
To me the idea that there's water coming everywhere can you can't get wet is... menacing. But that's not necessarily the same thing as scary.
Still works for me, because it's that tension and suspense I crave, not necessarily the same thing fear. The suspense to me in this story was always "what is The Doctor going to do", not "what is the Flood going to do".
I need to find a way to watch some of these old series again sometime soon... I just don't remember what account I had them linked to.
Whenever people talked about this episode being scary, I always thought they were talking about the Doctor having his "Time Lord Victorious" moment and how scary HE became -- the horrifying POTENTIAL of his attitude. It literally never occurred to me that they were just talking about the Flood, which I considered - not exactly forgettable, but a fairly run-of-the-mill Who enemy.
The reason I liked this episode so much was because it was so blatantly Anti-Doctor. It was a direct attack on the Doctor himself, to the core of his being. It was almost like the entirety of Tennent's Doctor was a quasi-deconstruction of the Doctor, tearing down all of the "Good" of the Doctor and showing him that he needs to change himself, and the more he tried to resist, the more potent the message became.
So many of his episodes seemed to be the universe saying "You think you are "clever"? And that this makes you superior? Clever your way out of this." as a way to teach him humility... and I'm not entirely certain that the Doctor learns this lesson, in the end. Tennents Doctor does, perhaps, but that lesson may not have passed on fully to Smith and Capaldi's Doctors. (Which is probably because of the new writing team and the new direction that always comes with a new Doctor, either immediately or soon after the new Doctor is introduced, I'll admit.)
I know the initial mission statement of this series was to review episodes that hadn't been covered on the channel before but would you consider reviewing episodes post Day of the Doctor again in case your views have changed? I've recently been doing a rewatch and a fair few Capaldi and late Smith episodes have gone up and down in my estimations.
Ive been hoping for the same
I agree, it seems that this episode was a build up to that one scene in the end, where he seems totally uncaring, just concerned that he win (hence the Time Lord Victorious)... and then he's smacked down for it by Adelaide's defiant action. I see that others have tied this in with Mr. Copper's line about having power over life and death, how it would make someone a monster, then the Doctor's powerlessness with the Midnight creature... topped off by the Doctor overdoing it with this episode and how true Mr. Copper's comment was. The Doctor can absolutely be the most dangerous being in the universe if he loses sight of his sense of morals and boundaries.
The supporting cast is brilliant
Ending with Doctor turning dark is scary
I love your take on this episode.Just great.It's not a monster story.Mr. Davies always has has several layers in his works. The 10th Doctor is just so tired of losing the people he loves, that this time, no one will die, not on his watch. I am not saying his right, but this is his emotional state right now. I did not realize, until you said it, that the captain killed herself, not to right history, but bring the Doctor back to reality.Our Doctor, who thinks himself as God, that is the Monster. thank you, Nathan for putting so much thought into this work.Take care.
Watching this as it aired as a kid, this stood out as one of the philosophical pillars of the show and of who the doctor really is. The flood was a minor plot thing, but especially the end was a game changer. Really great episode, really great story.
yep, very good episode. but I appreciate it for the timelord victorious not for the scares and stuff, just like you found it this time.
Somethings just occurred to me that could have made this episode a bit more scary, things like sweat, condensation, tears, etc being mistaken for the infected water and causing mistrust between the characters.
100% agree with you. A really great episode, and one of David"s best.
David Tenant was very good at portraying a Doctor with a Dark Side. The Last 10 minutes where he breaks his own rules is truly shocking and wraps up that plot of the Doctor Darkside . The Shock of the Captain killing herself to protect the timeline is really disturbing.
I think that the creepiest thing about the Flood is how, unless someone like the Doctor is around, you're 100% screwed (and even then hardly anyone survives the story) as being overtaken by them is somewhat inevitable as Humans NEED water to survive so it's either drink water and get infected or die of thirst.
Totally agreed. I never really cared for the "horror" aspect of this either. That Time Lord Victorious stuff tho? Oh, yeah.
Personally, I had never found this episode to be scary. And ever since watching this episode for the first time I felt that the Doctor clearly _was_ doing the right thing in trying to alter history as he saw fit, for I've always had faith in his intelligence and his better judgement. But I haven't re-watched it in quite a while, and perhaps I would've realised this stuff myself had I watched it now, but your *phenomenal* analysis of _why_ Captain Brooke killed herself completely won me over. I totally agree that feeling superior is the one thing that nobody should be allowed to do. I guess I just never saw the Doctor as being _actually_ arrogant (I'd always assumed it was a comical, semi-conscious way to make himself feel better and let out steam, not that I condone that kind of thing but I enjoy it on TV), but, yeah, as much as I love the guy, he cannot be allowed to feel like he is superior to anyone.
Thanks, dude! This has truly been an eye-opener for me, a very welcome one!
This is probably my favourite Dr Who episode, and I’ve never seen it as scary, for me it’s totally a set up for the emotional turmoil and ego war that the Dr is going through during the episode, the whole “timelord victorious” storyline and his desire for power over his own fate followed by his later admission of going to far leading into his own character finale is incredibly powerful and as a man who 100% believes Davis Tennant is the greatest Doctor of all time, it just hits me differently from any other episode
"They all died. Do you know who that leaves? Me! It's taken me all these years to realise the Laws of Time are mine, and they will obey me! "
So out of character.
@@mayotango1317 The Doctor can become the Master without a companion around to keep him grounded
I love all your points about this episode. I just want to add, for those of us who find it scary, its the same reason final destination is scary. It's the inevitability, and the helplessness. It's paralyzing because you analyse every choice and think 'which ones took them to their death?'.
At 10:27 I refer you to what old Mr. Kopper said to the Doctor at the end of Voyage of the Damned: "Doctor, if you could choose who lives and who dies, that would make you a monster."
It is a scary story. The Time Lord Victorious is a scary concept. Once forgotten most of the rest of the episode, but the Time Lord Victorious has always stuck out to me. That's what could happen to our hero if left unchecked. I'd love to see it explored again further in a later episode, probably with a future Doctor
Another slap in the face at the end is when the other two characters run away from him scared.. And the captain snaps back 'how do you get to decide who the little people are?' Something along those lines..
I LOVED this episode because of the deep running emotions, complex moral dilemmas, and the doctors character journey. They were fantastic. I agree i wouldn't rate this one of the scariest either but still good.
Which Flood is worse: the ones from this episode or Halo's Flood?
Now thats a really good question. However, I would say Halo's Flood its way more intellgent than this Flood. Plus Halo's flood makes you live pure agony before you fully consumed by it.
@@lonewolf6884 Dunno-- this one wanted the waters of Earth, so it had a purpose. Purpose implies intelligence of a sort. Halo's Flood just wanted to eat its way across the Universe.
Their black mouths always freaked me out! Thanks for the great vids!
I have a love / hate relationship with this episode ... simply because it's THE moment we say goodbye to the Tennant Doctor we knew and loved ... even though he had a couple more episodes to go.
His Doctor was ALWAYS destined to have an angry power-crazed destiny, you could see it in him from the very beginning ... but I still miss him to this day. Tennant will probably always be my favourite Doctor.
Yay. I've caught up with my rewatch, this episode is also my most recent.
I'm thinking of mixing it up a little bit though and try watching 'the day of the doctor' next, see it from 10s time line, something tells me it wont quite, fit (abit like his suit in 'day of the doctor' 🤭) but I'll see.
For, the best episode of the specials, still don't rank it quite as superior as most do though.
I'd never thought of that about lindsay's characters suicide (sorry cant think of the characters name so I'm gonna call her Lindsey)
It had always bugged me a little, I thought "but it's changed! The doctor said her granddaughter goes out there as if trying to meet her, but shes not out there, she died at home. If that was my grandmother who had never been suicidal before, killed herself after going to Mars and back, I don't think I'd be so keen to head out there. You put a totally different spin on in though. Of course there were 2 survivors, surly they would have explained what happened and why she had to do what she did. That would make me more determined to go out there or it would have meant she died for nothing. I would have liked to have seen some reapacution for what he did though, I don't mean on a personal level but on a time/history level.
1 more thing that bugs me slightly, is how did he know, just because the timelords arnt around anymore, he could get away with it. The timelords wasnt around when Rose saved her dad, or when River refuses to kill him? Just because hes not on earth? He took them back to earth though.
Its seems theres several rules about time and even the doctor doesn't even know what they are.
I love Waters of Mars for precisely the reason you say. It’s not about the water zombies. It’s that ending. It’s that glimpse of who The Doctor could be without any sense of constraints or felling that the rules don’t apply to him. Most terrifying thing in the episode.
Also, I don’t think it’s scary in the traditional way but the things I find scary about it seem to be different. I find their lack of humanity scary. Any villain the doctor cannot reason with or properly understand I find scary. We know what they can do and we know the doctors usual methods won’t work here so I find a villain that is stripped of humanity very scary
I agree with you completely. Never scared me either. The ending was the whole point that it was building to. Sorry you had to give caveats for half the review because of the past. XD
I loved this episode the first time I saw it. I agree, it's not scary in the traditional sense. The scare for me is the turning of the Doctor. That really impacted me on that first viewing and on every time I've seen it since. Fires of Pompeii is extremely relevant here - from a human perspective that was looking at a past scenario whereas this episode is pointing towards a future situation, However, from the viewpoint of the Doctor, they're all the same - they're just different fixed point in time. As I say, the conversation between Adelaide and the Doctor on Earth at the end is magnificent in terms of writing, acting and it's impact on how a Time Lord can over-reach his powers and the devastating affect that can have on those around him.
Idea for End of Time intro joke
Knock Knock Knock Knock
Who’s there
Wilf
Could you rank the episodes cold opens I haven’t seen that yet
Magician's Apprentice
Finally someone prepared to state the real reasons why this episode is terrific. 1000% agree! Bang on the nose!
I am also scared from this story, but I am more terrified thinking how it ended, and how someone with such a power, could simply with a knock of his thumbs destroy anything just because he thinks he is supreme
Only 6 mins in, but nah, I never thought it was particularly scary either. The reason this episode is one of my favorite is because it seems to focus on the tragedy of these people's lives. I cant name another episode immediately that portrays characters death as quite so sad. You mentioned the Vashta Nerada, and sure, while Miss Evangelista's death was played pretty sorrowfully, characters like 'Other Dave' are brushed off very quickly once gone.
But this episode literally shows us their obituary's. The Doctor is mourning for them before they're dead, he mentions how young Mia Bennett is. Stefi Ehrlich cries as he watches a video of her kids knowing she's dying, its inevitable and she'll never see them again. Roman's calm terror when he's infected by one drop, it's awful. But oddly a beautiful look into some kinda physiology. Couple this with the Doctor's apparent helplessness in being able to save them all, and it's amazing.
I also kinda liked the Doctor's darker side coming out, his determination to have time bend to his will, it was fascinating watching him pushed to that point. I think it's a shame he had to regenerate so soon after that, as I'd have love to have seen more.
Edit1: Also, yeah, it partly reminds me of 'Midnight', in the same why that one of the reasons that episode is so well liked is because it's plot is pushed partly by the psychology of the scared people surrounding the monster. I'd suggest it was a similar case here?
Edit2: Finished the ep! Awesome to see i'm not alone in some of these ideas xD
My biggest question for this episode would be: if they're producing water, why are they so dehydrated that their lips look like that?
Also I'm still upset by the overall outcome. Real tragic
that's an easy question to answer. by simply glancing over the script it clearly states "wibbly wobbly timey wimey". Makes perfect sense to me. :)
I always thought it was because it wasn't so much they were producing it, as the liquid in their bodies was being extracted to fuel their water effects.
@@maurinet2291 I thought that too. Still weird their lips are as chapped as they are, given that they're constantly being hydrated haha
I'm not too big on the "lonely god" vibe that they were going for with the 10th Doctor, which might explain why I liked the last season with Whittaker more than most. I like the Doctor when (s)he has ego but isn't an egomaniac.
water always finds its way - great episode - especially the doctor and his arc in the episode - creepiest bit for me was the origin of the water infection, like someone, something (maybe the ice warriers?) buried it in the ice underground on mars as the only way to neutralise/postpone it, it's never explained properly and left up to your imagination ....
I first watched this episode when I was about seven or eight. It scared the living hell out of me. In my opinion it shows very much what the show is about. Time travel, space, and scary monsters, all three elements are included in this story, so I think it's a great introduction to Doctor Who for those who are newcomers, but that's just me and I guess I'm a bit biased because it was the first episode I ever saw.
and whilst it plays on fears it is more tragic than anything else but can't re watch it too often
“Good men don’t need rules” this might be one of those moments that taught him why he has rules.
I've always loved this episode but i completely agree with you - besides one or two times it's not very scary, but I don't think it's meant to be! I've never loved it because it was scary, I've always loved it mainly because of those las 1O-15 minutes.
Actually, I think you are half right, she also kills herself to preserve the future4. Nothing changes much, only one detail changes, the rest is all the same. Also watching it a second time I actually thought maybe the Ood killed her? Not maliciously, just for the sake of preserving history. I think it was a little ambiguous. At least it seemed so the second time I watched it.
I just saw this episode and that’s why I like it, I thought it was a pretty standard Who adventure until he started playing god and that was where the meat was. I loved seeing the Doctor become the Master a little, also explaining more why he needs a companion. The water creatures are scary but it isn’t scary enough to note
For me it's the relentlessness of the danger. They did try to deal with the 'Not all, but any' aspect, by talking about the filters early on. It was their doomed nature, everyone knows Pompeii, but to put that in some context where we as an audience don't know what happens, but the consequences are terrible. People trying their best... being their best in the most extreme of circumstances...
Oddly, reminding me of a Babylon 5 Quote, as Mollari described humanity during the Minbari war.
_"The humans I think, Knew they were doomed. But, where another race would surrender to despair, the humans fought back with even greater strength. They made the Minbari fight for every inch of space. In my life, I have never seen anything like it.... They would weep, They would pray, they would say good-bye to their loved ones... Then throw themselves without fear or hesitation, at the very face of death itself. Never Surrendering. No-one who saw them fighting against the inevitable, could help but be moved to tears by their courage, their stubborn nobility. ... When they ran out of ships, they used guns, when they ran out of guns they used knives, sticks and barehands. They were magnificent. I only hope when it is my time, I may die with half as much dignity as I saw in their eyes at the end."_
ua-cam.com/video/DeNBJ5o-b7s/v-deo.html
Something of Don Quixote, tragic and magnificent... It's not scary... It has a family audience, the creatures can't be too horrific.
Probably an unpopular opinion, but this is certainly my least favourite of the Tennant specials and probably my lowest rated Tennant story full stop. I agree with what you say here in the review about the purpose of the episode, I just don't feel that it achieves it - if it takes me 30 seconds to come up with a work-around, I expect the Doctor (and the writers) to be able to come up with something at some point. Simple version - this is a fixed point in time, their deaths are important for what they inspire. Fine, rescue them, but explain that earth has to believe them dead so they cannot go back to earth, but the universe is a full place where they can live out happy lives (which would add an interesting dimension to the grand-daughter(?) becoming a space explorer because she always on some level imagined the captain was 'still out there somewhere'). Then have the Doctor go back to the Tardis, feeling smug, check up on historical records of how their lives turned out, but it all ended badly for them anyway - PTSD without family and friends around them - and have that crush him instead. Weaker ending, but at least it deals with the plot hole. Or come up with a 'fixed point in time' that isn't so easy to simply work around - maybe the recording of their deaths is an important historical artifact that 'anchors' the fixed point - then the full hubris ending can actually work. Whatever. (I feel like you're maybe right about this episode having been written backwards - and I think maybe that is why they never actually examined whether it made sense when run forwards again...)
As for Captain 'save us, save us, you're a bastard for not saving us - oh, you've saved us but you're arrogant about it so now I'm going to kill myself to prove nothing' - nah, don't like it, don't think it's well written, don't think it's even particularly plausible (also rather cheapens suicide IMO, making it something someone does just to spite someone they don't like the attitude of, never mind that they've just broken every rule of their society to save you...). Maybe if, as you suggest, they'd followed with another story as the Doctor continues riding that high of arrogance, it could've worked better for me - I still doubt I'd have thought highly of Waters, but maybe I'd have felt they'd better achieved the story intention. As you say, I can see why they didn't go that route, but I really don't feel this story stands particularly well on its own merits.
Speaking as someone who has tried to kill themselves, I also find the notion of Adeline commiting suicide as an empowering defiance against the Doctor disgusting.....
Well, for me is not really the scariness the point of the episode. And, IMHO, neither the turning of the Doctor (that I found a little OOC, even if considering WHERE is put the story in his timeline is more comprensible).
The point for me is to show the power of the Timelord and how this is not just a cool funny bouncing thing but a real potentially distructive thing that can REALLY change and affect universe and people lifes without they even have the choice. Here the Timelord decides for people, here he decides for Adelaide and nothing of her words or actins can change her fate.
To be honest, 10th Doctor decides for people along all his timeline, but this time he doesn't do that in the name of superior universally recognized rules or a greatest good. He decides to do this in name of himself.
THIS is the scary part:
The tragicity of the fallen hero is not him breaking bad, is the hero deciding to use is power for the sake of power in itself. I can do this so I do, in the name of my specific morality with no regards of people desires nor of a greatest good (to preserve time and history).
And, for me, the resolution of Adelaide is the scariest part. The lengst that people are going to in order to stop him...and it's more effective because it hits Doctor whole nature.
I don't care if stupid Moffat decides that Doctor has to mean soldier in a alien language.... in the beginning, the Doctor is the Doctor because his ultimate point is to heal people... to have someone to kill himself JUST TO show him that he was so wrong to put someone in the situation to have to (not a collaterale error, tihs time is not a indirect effect of his actions. It's him, brutal and direct) is a smack directly on the face and on his more deeper and truer nature.
For me this episode is scary not for what it shows but for the infinitive potential threats it implies.
I loved it.
The only thing I ever found scary about it, was that it showed how dangerous powerful people can be if there are nobody to hold them accountable.
In Waters of Mars he snaps. To many deaths. To much pain. To much power.
Later 11 touch on the danger in a way
"Good men don't need rules. Today is not the day to find out why I have so many."
This Hugo-winning episode is in my top ten for all Doctor Who. For me, it answers the question "Why does the Doctor go out o his way to try to save/redeem the Master?"
The answer: Because now, we know that the Doctor is the other side of the same coin as the Master. They are mirror-images of each other. This is why the Master is always after more lives in Classic Who ("I don't want to go."). The Timelord Victorious is the Doctor at his most alien, his most arrogant, his most isolated, his most Master-like.
I don't agree that the motivation is entirely fixed on bringing down the Doctor; her grandchild figures into it a lot. We grannies would do just about anything for our grandchildren!
This show tells us that the worst Hell is the one we carry inside us.
This episode was the only one to give me nightmares as a kid