Yeah that's one of my favourite twists in the whole show. The one thing I still don't get though, is if the storm made the crew lose control of their Gangers, why didn't Amy lose control of hers? Yes there's the argument to be made that she wasn't controlling it through the same technology, or that one end of the connection wasn't inside the storm in her case, so there may have been a chance it wouldn't be affected, but in that case I'd still really be interested to find out, like, what level of luck was involved there -- was there a chance that she could have lost control the same way? And what would have happened if she did?
@@SplotchTheCatThing I don't know if that works, if she's already one. The gangers were formed from their human counterparts, therefore Amy would've been invulnerable to it I *think* the flesh relies on human anatomy to recreate it, it wouldn't be able to recreate itself
@@SplotchTheCatThing it's explained that the technology the guest cast are using is in its earlier stages, and the version the Silence used with Amy is presumably much more advanced and less susceptible to things like the solar storm, or at least that was my interpretation of it
Honestly, I'd be lying if I didn't say that I've been waiting for you to review this one since you were in, like season 2. It's just so freaking underrated. It kinda frustrates me how little people talk about this one.
Fun fact: it is heavily implied that humans invented The Flesh by stealing Sontaran cloning technology. They used the same props from The Sontaran Stratagem.
They don't go into it in express detail but was Jennifer intended to Dissociative Identity Disorder? Her ganger tells this story about how as a girl she got lost on the moors. To cope she imagined another version of herself to lead her home. Later in the episode when revealing that she's not the original Jennifer but the ganger she reiterates this story by saying that the little girl got strong. That word "strong" is also how she refers to herself when she's quantifying how she is different from the human Jennifer. Additionally the ganger boss says that Jennifer used to be this sweet kid, now she's a monster. It seems as though in comparison to all the other ganger/human pairings Jen and her ganger were very starkly contrasted. Was this because the ganger manifested Jen's harsher "strong" personality instead of the one that was usually in control?
Even though this isn't my favourite story, it's my favourite Matt Smith performance in terms of range. Especially his both the Doctor/Not Ganger meltdown about how they are thrown away but feel every painful moment, scaring Amy (and us). But also when it's revealed that John Smith is actually the Doctor, the facade drops and he is unable to hide his disappointment in Amy's less than empathic qualities, painting their relationship in more shades than previously SEEN. Which then plays BRILLIANTLY in the twist that despite her prejudice and mistrust of gangers she turns out to be one leading him to unleash that terrifying YOU NEED TO STEP AWAY whilst still being able to comfort Amy before melting her.
I always thought the main theme of this double episode was acceptance of others and showing the problem about the “us-and-them”-thinking and how that kind of thinking produces mistrust and perhaps even hatred.
I also loved that this story tied into the (mid) season finale. Its still a stand alone sorry but it still factors in to the overall arc. The best example I think is the fob watch in Human Nature/Family of Blood being used for the Master's reveal in Utopia.
the writer for this two parter did a q+a session at my uni about a month ago and explained how as a show runner steven moffat would ask graham to include certain details into the script but wouldn’t explain how they linked in- meaning until the whole season was broadcast, the cliff hanger on the end of the episode was a mystery to matthew too!
I always found it strange how quickly they decided to turn against each other. In this situation, I'd probably be more willing to be diplomatic (considering that I understand the motivations of the clone exactly).
I read a fair amount of denial and guilt into that. Being diplomatic with 'gangers means you have to acknowledge on some level that they're people. And once you let your mind go to that place you have to deal with the concept that you've been abusing and murdering them. It's much easier to go "No, they're not sentient, they can't be".
What always annoyed me about this episode is how the doctor always seems to side with humans even when they're clearly in the wrong. When cleaves kills that ganger, rory does the right thing by tackling her and disarming her. But then they just stop. They let her up and let her continue spouting her crazy bullshit. What they should have done was tie her to a chair and gag her mouth shut. But instead the doctor just basically follows her into a war. Any other species we've seen on this show, if they commit murder in front of the doctor, he's ready to take them down hard if needed. But cleaves murders someone right in front of the doctors eyes and he does nothing. Why? What she gets a pass because she's human?
My one big issue with this one is playing the reveal of the Ganger Doctor as some huge, shocking twist worthy of ending an episode on, when I'm sure I'm far from the only one who didn't even realize until that moment that we weren't supposed to know about him. Having the audience that far ahead of your characters is very rarely a good thing, and this was not one of those times.
When I first watched this episode I was too young to understand what racial coding was. Looking back on it it was a little bit obvious if only because the "real doctor" gave the "ganger doctor" his sonic and sent him to look for Rory. The doctor appears to ignore Rory a lot but he's not actually that callous.
This is a great story, has so many good character points and has an interesting overlook of the "almost people" and that end is just stunning!!! i honestly didnt ever think amy was a ganger, i just flowed with it and was stunned when it happened! hahaha sometimes i try not to outthink it, i just run with it and at times its the best way to go.
I think the second episode of this story is amazing. But it would have been better if you didn’t see the doctors flesh be destroyed so then there would be a mystery if the doctor was a ganger or not. The scene were one of the characters has to talk to his son is wonderful and generally made me almost weep. A great and underrated Matt smith episode.
I really like this one too. I think it overplays its hand too much in the middle when Rory is off with the Ganger. It's too on the nose, too preachy in that section. But it's a really solid two parter, and the twist at the end is unreal.
This is one story that is up their in my ranking with stories like The Sontaran Stratagem/The Poison Sky, Under the Lake/Before the Flood, and Cold War. Really *really* solid stuff and quite enjoyable too, but not quite top tier like Heaven Sent, Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead, and Dalek.
Mark Bonnar also plays the Eleven for Big Finish - one of the best rogue Time Lords they have come up with, and an idea that is surprising that the TV series never did.
I'm very interested at the last part of this video where you talk about the integration of the mystery box motif. I never thought about this before until this video but it seems like the Doctor contradicts everything that we were supposed to have learned or that Amy was supposed to have learned about the ganger. Because you're supposed to learn that they are people and should be treated as such given rights and opportunities yet when he realizes that Amy is a ganger he destroys the ganger so that pregnant Amy can live. It's also got me thinking about all the other episodes with multiple Amy and how that's handled. There's the the girl who waited with old and young Amy; there's ganger Amy pregnant Amy. I think there's another but I can't remember.
it's explained either in "the almost people" or in "a good man goes to war" that flesh amy was mind-linked with real amy, so this flesh amy hadn't really developed a consciousness of its own.
Are we not going to talk about how the entire time, the doctor says these r living things and need to be protected. then just decides to KILL Amy's ganger? Just felt very contradictory to the whole story.
I might have to watch this one again, never one of my favorites except the ending which totally shocked me. I actually enjoy the mystery box when done right, and this tie-in was perfectly executed.
The Doctor: "Gangers have just as much right to live as humans!" Also The Doctor: "Die Ganger Amy, Die !" Also Ganger Doctor and lady have to "guard the door" from the monster for at least a minute and then die instead of VERY EASILY running into the TARDIS between door banging attacks. Lame.
The difference is that Ganger Amy isn't a separate entity whilst the Gangers in this story became separate independent beings as a result of the solar flair. But yes.
But Ganger amy was not sentient, it was real Amy that was inhabiting it - so yes he still didnt want to, but he had to, to wake up amy and begin to track her etc.
Fun Fact: In the 1923 play R.U.R. by Karel Čapek - the work of literature that actually *gave* us the word "Robot" (And the robot uprising trope), the robots were, in fact, created from a special form of protoplasm (Wikipedia article with the original plot synopsis, here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R.U.R.). So the Flesh in this story are closer to the OG robots than anyone's coffeemaker or smartphone. (And in the end, when the Robot Uprising is successful, and the original humans have been defeated, it's treated as a *happy* ending)
Wilo Polis oh yeah that acting sucks as well but that whole episode is bad in my opinion so I tend to forget how bad the acting is in it, these episodes though I find I just get pulled right out of the emotional moment when that kid comes on screen.
@@dubbingsync Doesn't bother me personally as much since it's just a cameo, and all of the other guest performances are really solid imo. But yeah it's pretty bad acting. I think that's easily forgivable though, since Doctor Who is generally fantastic at casting. Like they're at least just as good at casting as the MCU is.
I very much enjoyed this two-parter but, for me, it was ruined by the bit in the Tardis at the end. The Doctor had spent most of the story trying to save some of the gangers but, at the end, he has no regrets over disrupting Amy's ganger. I felt this moment undermined the whole episode, who was otherwise very good.
Y'know, I must have been bone thick not to make the connection that "of course the Silence took her, that's why she doesn't know anything about it." It's taken me, what, nine years to work that one out?
If there was one thing- 1 story or character from the Big Finish audiobooks that you could chose to be an actual episode of Doctor Who, which 1 would it be? Also is there any 13th Doctor audio that you could recommend? Thanks, and always enjoy watching your videos
I was so curious what your reaction would be to this story arc, since I know you dislike them. This story arc is my favorite, despite the timey whimey flaws 😂 My first memories of this episode was watching it alone, really late at night in my parents creepy basement and the ending really freaked me out 😂😬 I need to rewatch it as my older self!
The bit with Amy undermines the moral lesson of the rest of the story. Doctor: “Gangers are people, they have your memories, they have as much right to live as you do. Except you, Ganger Amy” - zap.
It’s ambitious, it covers great ideas, the acting is right in there, but somehow it doesn’t work as well as it should. Part of it is the pacing. But another part I think is that the whole theme of ‘gangers are people too’ gets so totally thrown away in any future granger representation. Amy and baby river gangers are melted away, like they have no sentience or right to life. I think that that, reflexively, colors this story and says in effect, “ you don’t really need to take any of this seriously.”
I always took it that the gangers essentially become their own people when they're disconnected from their operators and start thinking for themselves. Up until that point they're basically puppets with no independent thought and Amy's ganger was entirely under her control until the moment the Doctor, um, 'deactivated' her. It had the potential to become a person, but never actually did. As for baby River, we don't know if that ganger was hooked up to the real River or not. She could have easily been independent of the original in which case then yeah, by the show's logic that really was a baby that just got killed, but regardless that was the villain's doing and it's treated, at least in the moment, as a horrible thing.
I have mixed thoughts on this one. On the one hand, it being a complete knock-off of the Hungry Earth (similar to Matthew Graham's other script being an Idiot's Lantern knockoff which we do not talk about) and the dreadfully slow pace is frustrating, along with some awkward moral dilemmas, brings it down. BUT, giving Rory more to do, a great interesting "threat", fantastic production and direction, Smith at his dramatic best and that gut punch of a brilliant ending makes it worth it. I may need to rewatch this one as it's been a very long time since I've checked it out.
I utterly despised this story the first few times I saw it. I watched it again about a year ago and kinda enjoyed it. Nowhere near a classic, but a lot better than I'd remembered.
An Overdue Doctor Who on my birthday? Hooray! I remember always disliking this episode, probably because when it aired I was going through lots of surgery and disliked this episode by unfortunate association, but on rewatch I enjoyed it much more. It's definitely very good and the ending has some great emotional points!
I feel like the doctor was being hypocritical he killed the flesh Amy in the tardis but made a point that the flesh versions are as much as people as human versions
I feel they don’t explain what was really going on with Jennifer by the end. How did she turn into that monster thing and how come there was two ganger Jennifer’s??? Did she plan that to fool Rory? I was just confused by the end if someone could explain that would be great
Always felt like this story would have been a good story if it wasn’t stretched into a two parter. Granted there’s a lot in this so maybe that would hurt it in some way.
Agree with your comments, the problem I have with this story, and it's a BIG problem is really dislike all the characters, except maybe the Dad. Especially the main girl. They're whinney and self absorbed hence I really couldn't care less what happens to them. As a consequence I really don't like this story.
The thing I didn't like about this episode was the ending. The last few minutes are essentially a montage of one of each pair of human/ganger group dies leaving only one of each left. (Except Jennifer but she was evil so we're not supposed to care.) Then the Doctor is like "the energy from the Tardis has stabilised you, you're people. Oh and here's a cure for your terminal illness." Firstly THEY WERE PEOPLE FROM THE BEGINNING. That was the entire point of the episode. Second, this is Moffat's whole thing with "Everyone's died, how can it get any worse." "Oh no, they're not dead afterall, it's a miracle, EVERYBODY LIVES!" When Moffat did the "everyone lives" bit in Empty Child there was one very important part of it that he seems to have forgotten. Doctor: "Everybody lives Rose, just this once, everybody lives." The "everyone lives" thing only has meaning if it is rare. If everyone is constantly surviving it doesn't mean anything. If every episode has at least one casualty the few episodes were the Doctor manages to save everyone actually mean something, not just to us but to the Doctor as well.
Good thing the Doctor knew that ganger Amy was still connected to the real Amy rather than being detached! Also, for whatever reason, I distinctly remember the actor playing the father completely forgets his accent at the very end. Weird how that stick to me!
Sadly I do not care for this story at all. I found it muddled and uninspired with the villainous turn just felt forced. The CGI also hurts this story more than any of the cheap effects of classic did for me. I also felt of all the stories they could have made a two parter, this is not one I would ever have chosen. It's ending also has very mixed feelings for me.
Weirdly enough this is actually my favourite story from series 6. Not that I think it's particularly good, just no where near as bad of the rest of the season.
It adds a lot of cool arc twists. Not just the ending, also when Amy confronts the real doctor about his death at the lake, thinking he's the flesh doctor. And of course, probably the best cliff hanger ever, not to mention it has a cool base under siege troughton season 5 feel to it eg fury from the deep.
This is not one of my favorite stories because I find myself really annoyed with the direction the story takes Jennifer. Why does she continue to be something not quite human? The fact she turns into a literal monster does not make sense when given the context of the other characters. That’s my main issue with the story. That being said I really think this is one of your best reviews, I love the way you dissect the story in ways I haven’t thought about.
She mentions that earlier in the story, about the time she was lost as a child and coped by imagining a stronger, separate part of herself. They may or may not have been implying a full-fledged multiple personality but, either way, that side of her saw the power of her new ganger form as an escape from her human weakness in a way the others didn't.
@@n8mub813 the "macra terror" is an animated reconstruction of a 1966 doctor who story starring the second doctor. Are you in the US? The Macra Terror came out in the UK a while ago. Either way, it's not a new episode (though it's quite good and you should watch it!)
How do you feel about the Doctor knowing Amy was pregnant and not telling her for seemingly no reason? Clearly Steven never properly planner out this season, but it is a little dodgy all the same.
The weird thing is that she was simultaneously reading as both pregnant and not-pregnant, so the Doctor wanted to figure out what was going on before telling her. But yes, It was very arrogant and inconsiderate of him. So fairly in character, really...
Hmm.... I really loved the self-contained story, but I hated the series arc. Better on a rewatch when you know which bits are part of Moffat's 'master plan' and can be safely ignored vs which bits are actually relevant to the situation at hand.
The big thing I dislike about this episode is that it doesn't believe its own theme. It tells us that Ganger Doctor is the same as regular Doctor, but then he 'sacrifices' himself unnecessarily just to tie up a loose end. Why did Ganger Doctor have to do it instead of regular Doctor?
I agree with you. This was one of my favorite episodes from this season. This episode is the one that put Matt Smith just over Tom Baker as my favorite Doctor! This was the last straw seeing Matt display actions, emotions, thoughts & actions that reminds me (a Lover of Classic Doctor Who) of the old Doctors while remaining his own!
Yeah that son had no idea how to act, and don’t give me the “he’s just a kid” argument. Go watch Halloween 2018 and watch the black kid in that movie, he’s awesome
That ending was absolutely tragic. "Given what we've seen Rory, given what we've learned I shall be humane as I can. BUT I NEED YOU TO STAND AWAY!"
Kristien Whitneyjohns that scene was crazy
Yeah that's one of my favourite twists in the whole show. The one thing I still don't get though, is if the storm made the crew lose control of their Gangers, why didn't Amy lose control of hers?
Yes there's the argument to be made that she wasn't controlling it through the same technology, or that one end of the connection wasn't inside the storm in her case, so there may have been a chance it wouldn't be affected, but in that case I'd still really be interested to find out, like, what level of luck was involved there -- was there a chance that she could have lost control the same way? And what would have happened if she did?
@@SplotchTheCatThing I don't know if that works, if she's already one. The gangers were formed from their human counterparts, therefore Amy would've been invulnerable to it I *think* the flesh relies on human anatomy to recreate it, it wouldn't be able to recreate itself
@@SplotchTheCatThing it's explained that the technology the guest cast are using is in its earlier stages, and the version the Silence used with Amy is presumably much more advanced and less susceptible to things like the solar storm, or at least that was my interpretation of it
Honestly, I'd be lying if I didn't say that I've been waiting for you to review this one since you were in, like season 2. It's just so freaking underrated.
It kinda frustrates me how little people talk about this one.
Fun fact: it is heavily implied that humans invented The Flesh by stealing Sontaran cloning technology. They used the same props from The Sontaran Stratagem.
Their acid suits kinda make them look like sontarans
They don't go into it in express detail but was Jennifer intended to Dissociative Identity Disorder? Her ganger tells this story about how as a girl she got lost on the moors. To cope she imagined another version of herself to lead her home. Later in the episode when revealing that she's not the original Jennifer but the ganger she reiterates this story by saying that the little girl got strong. That word "strong" is also how she refers to herself when she's quantifying how she is different from the human Jennifer. Additionally the ganger boss says that Jennifer used to be this sweet kid, now she's a monster. It seems as though in comparison to all the other ganger/human pairings Jen and her ganger were very starkly contrasted. Was this because the ganger manifested Jen's harsher "strong" personality instead of the one that was usually in control?
Even though this isn't my favourite story, it's my favourite Matt Smith performance in terms of range.
Especially his both the Doctor/Not Ganger meltdown about how they are thrown away but feel every painful moment, scaring Amy (and us). But also when it's revealed that John Smith is actually the Doctor, the facade drops and he is unable to hide his disappointment in Amy's less than empathic qualities, painting their relationship in more shades than previously SEEN. Which then plays BRILLIANTLY in the twist that despite her prejudice and mistrust of gangers she turns out to be one leading him to unleash that terrifying YOU NEED TO STEP AWAY whilst still being able to comfort Amy before melting her.
I always thought the main theme of this double episode was acceptance of others and showing the problem about the “us-and-them”-thinking and how that kind of thinking produces mistrust and perhaps even hatred.
I also loved that this story tied into the (mid) season finale. Its still a stand alone sorry but it still factors in to the overall arc. The best example I think is the fob watch in Human Nature/Family of Blood being used for the Master's reveal in Utopia.
the writer for this two parter did a q+a session at my uni about a month ago and explained how as a show runner steven moffat would ask graham to include certain details into the script but wouldn’t explain how they linked in- meaning until the whole season was broadcast, the cliff hanger on the end of the episode was a mystery to matthew too!
@@melodygrace6040 Thx for replying, nice name btw
This entire season I see as kind of a golden age for Doctor Who
I always found it strange how quickly they decided to turn against each other. In this situation, I'd probably be more willing to be diplomatic (considering that I understand the motivations of the clone exactly).
I read a fair amount of denial and guilt into that. Being diplomatic with 'gangers means you have to acknowledge on some level that they're people. And once you let your mind go to that place you have to deal with the concept that you've been abusing and murdering them. It's much easier to go "No, they're not sentient, they can't be".
What always annoyed me about this episode is how the doctor always seems to side with humans even when they're clearly in the wrong. When cleaves kills that ganger, rory does the right thing by tackling her and disarming her. But then they just stop. They let her up and let her continue spouting her crazy bullshit. What they should have done was tie her to a chair and gag her mouth shut. But instead the doctor just basically follows her into a war. Any other species we've seen on this show, if they commit murder in front of the doctor, he's ready to take them down hard if needed. But cleaves murders someone right in front of the doctors eyes and he does nothing. Why? What she gets a pass because she's human?
My one big issue with this one is playing the reveal of the Ganger Doctor as some huge, shocking twist worthy of ending an episode on, when I'm sure I'm far from the only one who didn't even realize until that moment that we weren't supposed to know about him. Having the audience that far ahead of your characters is very rarely a good thing, and this was not one of those times.
When I first watched this episode I was too young to understand what racial coding was. Looking back on it it was a little bit obvious if only because the "real doctor" gave the "ganger doctor" his sonic and sent him to look for Rory. The doctor appears to ignore Rory a lot but he's not actually that callous.
This is a great story, has so many good character points and has an interesting overlook of the "almost people" and that end is just stunning!!! i honestly didnt ever think amy was a ganger, i just flowed with it and was stunned when it happened! hahaha sometimes i try not to outthink it, i just run with it and at times its the best way to go.
I think the second episode of this story is amazing. But it would have been better if you didn’t see the doctors flesh be destroyed so then there would be a mystery if the doctor was a ganger or not. The scene were one of the characters has to talk to his son is wonderful and generally made me almost weep. A great and underrated Matt smith episode.
I really like this one too. I think it overplays its hand too much in the middle when Rory is off with the Ganger. It's too on the nose, too preachy in that section. But it's a really solid two parter, and the twist at the end is unreal.
This is one story that is up their in my ranking with stories like The Sontaran Stratagem/The Poison Sky, Under the Lake/Before the Flood, and Cold War. Really *really* solid stuff and quite enjoyable too, but not quite top tier like Heaven Sent, Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead, and Dalek.
This is such an underrated story. I've always loved it though, and am glad to see you enjoy it too
Mark Bonnar also plays the Eleven for Big Finish - one of the best rogue Time Lords they have come up with, and an idea that is surprising that the TV series never did.
I'm very interested at the last part of this video where you talk about the integration of the mystery box motif. I never thought about this before until this video but it seems like the Doctor contradicts everything that we were supposed to have learned or that Amy was supposed to have learned about the ganger. Because you're supposed to learn that they are people and should be treated as such given rights and opportunities yet when he realizes that Amy is a ganger he destroys the ganger so that pregnant Amy can live. It's also got me thinking about all the other episodes with multiple Amy and how that's handled. There's the the girl who waited with old and young Amy; there's ganger Amy pregnant Amy. I think there's another but I can't remember.
it's explained either in "the almost people" or in "a good man goes to war" that flesh amy was mind-linked with real amy, so this flesh amy hadn't really developed a consciousness of its own.
Are we not going to talk about how the entire time, the doctor says these r living things and need to be protected. then just decides to KILL Amy's ganger? Just felt very contradictory to the whole story.
Yeah I had the same problem with it!
I might have to watch this one again, never one of my favorites except the ending which totally shocked me. I actually enjoy the mystery box when done right, and this tie-in was perfectly executed.
15:00 One of a few of my main reasons as to why series 6 is actually STILL my favourite overall New Who series!
The Doctor: "Gangers have just as much right to live as humans!"
Also The Doctor: "Die Ganger Amy, Die !"
Also Ganger Doctor and lady have to "guard the door" from the monster for at least a minute and then die instead of VERY EASILY running into the TARDIS between door banging attacks. Lame.
The difference is that Ganger Amy isn't a separate entity whilst the Gangers in this story became separate independent beings as a result of the solar flair. But yes.
Also
AMY: Gangers are Trash.
DOCTOR: 😑... You're a Ganger.
AMY: DaFuq?
@@evaserration6223 she was still a living creature and the Doctor sonicked her to death
But Ganger amy was not sentient, it was real Amy that was inhabiting it - so yes he still didnt want to, but he had to, to wake up amy and begin to track her etc.
I always seem to forget this story exists, but when I see it it's pretty great
Fun Fact: In the 1923 play R.U.R. by Karel Čapek - the work of literature that actually *gave* us the word "Robot" (And the robot uprising trope), the robots were, in fact, created from a special form of protoplasm (Wikipedia article with the original plot synopsis, here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R.U.R.). So the Flesh in this story are closer to the OG robots than anyone's coffeemaker or smartphone.
(And in the end, when the Robot Uprising is successful, and the original humans have been defeated, it's treated as a *happy* ending)
Turn Left and Utopia both is a better job of linking the series arc into the plot of the episode.
Oh my god, I thought I was the only one who hated the child's performance and cringed at it xD Glad to know I'm not alone
Yeah... definitely one of the worst child acting I’ve seen on this show. I’m guessing it was just a crew members kid or something like that.
hahaha yeah definately a very bad performance! but thankfully very brief
@@dubbingsync I mean, I think Fear Her is still a worthy contender
Wilo Polis oh yeah that acting sucks as well but that whole episode is bad in my opinion so I tend to forget how bad the acting is in it, these episodes though I find I just get pulled right out of the emotional moment when that kid comes on screen.
@@dubbingsync Doesn't bother me personally as much since it's just a cameo, and all of the other guest performances are really solid imo. But yeah it's pretty bad acting.
I think that's easily forgivable though, since Doctor Who is generally fantastic at casting. Like they're at least just as good at casting as the MCU is.
I very much enjoyed this two-parter but, for me, it was ruined by the bit in the Tardis at the end. The Doctor had spent most of the story trying to save some of the gangers but, at the end, he has no regrets over disrupting Amy's ganger. I felt this moment undermined the whole episode, who was otherwise very good.
Because Amy's ganger was more personal to him. He didn't want a copy of Amy.
I completely agree with your points.
Read R.U.R. It's a 1920 play that first used the term Robot and deals with this topic.
I like to think Amy got taken when she went to the loo in the first episode of the series, perfect place for it to happen.
Y'know, I must have been bone thick not to make the connection that "of course the Silence took her, that's why she doesn't know anything about it."
It's taken me, what, nine years to work that one out?
If there was one thing- 1 story or character from the Big Finish audiobooks that you could chose to be an actual episode of Doctor Who, which 1 would it be? Also is there any 13th Doctor audio that you could recommend? Thanks, and always enjoy watching your videos
I was so curious what your reaction would be to this story arc, since I know you dislike them. This story arc is my favorite, despite the timey whimey flaws 😂
My first memories of this episode was watching it alone, really late at night in my parents creepy basement and the ending really freaked me out 😂😬 I need to rewatch it as my older self!
The bit with Amy undermines the moral lesson of the rest of the story. Doctor: “Gangers are people, they have your memories, they have as much right to live as you do. Except you, Ganger Amy” - zap.
It’s ambitious, it covers great ideas, the acting is right in there, but somehow it doesn’t work as well as it should. Part of it is the pacing. But another part I think is that the whole theme of ‘gangers are people too’ gets so totally thrown away in any future granger representation. Amy and baby river gangers are melted away, like they have no sentience or right to life. I think that that, reflexively, colors this story and says in effect, “ you don’t really need to take any of this seriously.”
I always took it that the gangers essentially become their own people when they're disconnected from their operators and start thinking for themselves. Up until that point they're basically puppets with no independent thought and Amy's ganger was entirely under her control until the moment the Doctor, um, 'deactivated' her. It had the potential to become a person, but never actually did.
As for baby River, we don't know if that ganger was hooked up to the real River or not. She could have easily been independent of the original in which case then yeah, by the show's logic that really was a baby that just got killed, but regardless that was the villain's doing and it's treated, at least in the moment, as a horrible thing.
Honestly though, I kind of have a soft spot for this story.....
I wonder if somebody at Nintendo who was working on Luigi's Mansion 3 watched this episode before coming up with the idea for Gooigi?
Doctor Who: The Rebel Flesh/The Almost People vs Marvel Spider-Man The 90s Clone Saga
This pair of episodes is a the Clone Saga but good.
Pretty sure this is the last two parter you’ll do an overdue review for since I don’t think you’ll be re-reviewing the Capaldi era.
I have mixed thoughts on this one. On the one hand, it being a complete knock-off of the Hungry Earth (similar to Matthew Graham's other script being an Idiot's Lantern knockoff which we do not talk about) and the dreadfully slow pace is frustrating, along with some awkward moral dilemmas, brings it down. BUT, giving Rory more to do, a great interesting "threat", fantastic production and direction, Smith at his dramatic best and that gut punch of a brilliant ending makes it worth it. I may need to rewatch this one as it's been a very long time since I've checked it out.
I utterly despised this story the first few times I saw it. I watched it again about a year ago and kinda enjoyed it. Nowhere near a classic, but a lot better than I'd remembered.
An Overdue Doctor Who on my birthday? Hooray! I remember always disliking this episode, probably because when it aired I was going through lots of surgery and disliked this episode by unfortunate association, but on rewatch I enjoyed it much more. It's definitely very good and the ending has some great emotional points!
I feel like the doctor was being hypocritical he killed the flesh Amy in the tardis but made a point that the flesh versions are as much as people as human versions
Yep i had just thought about that
IIRC the Flesh Amy was still directly controlled by the original Amy, so it hadn't developed it's own consciousness yet.
@@HereComesPopoBawa That seems the likeliest explanation but I don't recall it being directly established in the episode.
I feel they don’t explain what was really going on with Jennifer by the end. How did she turn into that monster thing and how come there was two ganger Jennifer’s??? Did she plan that to fool Rory? I was just confused by the end if someone could explain that would be great
She used spare ganger bits to make it seem like the ganger Jennifer had already been destroyed and she was the human one.
Always felt like this story would have been a good story if it wasn’t stretched into a two parter.
Granted there’s a lot in this so maybe that would hurt it in some way.
Agree with your comments, the problem I have with this story, and it's a BIG problem is really dislike all the characters, except maybe the Dad. Especially the main girl. They're whinney and self absorbed hence I really couldn't care less what happens to them. As a consequence I really don't like this story.
Geez Louis the Gangers are so disgustingly unsetting
The thing I didn't like about this episode was the ending. The last few minutes are essentially a montage of one of each pair of human/ganger group dies leaving only one of each left. (Except Jennifer but she was evil so we're not supposed to care.) Then the Doctor is like "the energy from the Tardis has stabilised you, you're people. Oh and here's a cure for your terminal illness." Firstly THEY WERE PEOPLE FROM THE BEGINNING. That was the entire point of the episode.
Second, this is Moffat's whole thing with "Everyone's died, how can it get any worse." "Oh no, they're not dead afterall, it's a miracle, EVERYBODY LIVES!" When Moffat did the "everyone lives" bit in Empty Child there was one very important part of it that he seems to have forgotten.
Doctor: "Everybody lives Rose, just this once, everybody lives."
The "everyone lives" thing only has meaning if it is rare. If everyone is constantly surviving it doesn't mean anything. If every episode has at least one casualty the few episodes were the Doctor manages to save everyone actually mean something, not just to us but to the Doctor as well.
Everyone lives, except that one villain lady XD
Good thing the Doctor knew that ganger Amy was still connected to the real Amy rather than being detached! Also, for whatever reason, I distinctly remember the actor playing the father completely forgets his accent at the very end. Weird how that stick to me!
Sadly I do not care for this story at all. I found it muddled and uninspired with the villainous turn just felt forced. The CGI also hurts this story more than any of the cheap effects of classic did for me. I also felt of all the stories they could have made a two parter, this is not one I would ever have chosen. It's ending also has very mixed feelings for me.
Reminded me of the Android invasion
The premise you explain at the beginning sounds a bit like Avatar 2009.
I've been hearing so many people saying that season 6 is complete trash,
it's nice that someone thinks otherwise.
Weirdly enough this is actually my favourite story from series 6. Not that I think it's particularly good, just no where near as bad of the rest of the season.
season 6 i think on the whole is my fave of all of them
It adds a lot of cool arc twists. Not just the ending, also when Amy confronts the real doctor about his death at the lake, thinking he's the flesh doctor. And of course, probably the best cliff hanger ever, not to mention it has a cool base under siege troughton season 5 feel to it eg fury from the deep.
Has anyone else noticed that your eyes match the colour of your jacket?
This is not one of my favorite stories because I find myself really annoyed with the direction the story takes Jennifer. Why does she continue to be something not quite human? The fact she turns into a literal monster does not make sense when given the context of the other characters. That’s my main issue with the story. That being said I really think this is one of your best reviews, I love the way you dissect the story in ways I haven’t thought about.
She mentions that earlier in the story, about the time she was lost as a child and coped by imagining a stronger, separate part of herself. They may or may not have been implying a full-fledged multiple personality but, either way, that side of her saw the power of her new ganger form as an escape from her human weakness in a way the others didn't.
I love your outfit. Fezzes & Bowties are cool. 😎
BBC has a new episode of doctor who scheduled for the 26th of December
*citation needed.
@@CouncilofGeeks it's a 2 hour episode of doctor who at 9PM EST on the 26th of December called "The Macra Terror" its listed on my TV guide
Casey Richardson thats not a citation. Give me a source. A link. Something.
@@CouncilofGeeks I don't have a website link its on my TV guide listing from spectrum
@@n8mub813 the "macra terror" is an animated reconstruction of a 1966 doctor who story starring the second doctor. Are you in the US? The Macra Terror came out in the UK a while ago.
Either way, it's not a new episode (though it's quite good and you should watch it!)
How do you feel about the Doctor knowing Amy was pregnant and not telling her for seemingly no reason? Clearly Steven never properly planner out this season, but it is a little dodgy all the same.
The weird thing is that she was simultaneously reading as both pregnant and not-pregnant, so the Doctor wanted to figure out what was going on before telling her. But yes, It was very arrogant and inconsiderate of him. So fairly in character, really...
Hmm.... I really loved the self-contained story, but I hated the series arc.
Better on a rewatch when you know which bits are part of Moffat's 'master plan' and can be safely ignored vs which bits are actually relevant to the situation at hand.
It annoys me so much when people actually think he had a plan lmao.
@@FortoFight What do you mean? He clearly had the season planned out in advance. What makes you think he didn't?
Always found it dull and have never quite figured out why
I can barely remember it. I'll rewatch it eventually but I'm not sure if my opinion will change.
Dr who the clone saga
Hello. Whoever you are, reading this comment, have a good day!!!
You have a good day, too, Andrew :)
This always was one of my favorite overall Doctor Who stories.
The big thing I dislike about this episode is that it doesn't believe its own theme. It tells us that Ganger Doctor is the same as regular Doctor, but then he 'sacrifices' himself unnecessarily just to tie up a loose end. Why did Ganger Doctor have to do it instead of regular Doctor?
I agree with you.
This was one of my favorite episodes from this season. This episode is the one that put Matt Smith just over Tom Baker as my favorite Doctor! This was the last straw seeing Matt display actions, emotions, thoughts & actions that reminds me (a Lover of Classic Doctor Who) of the old Doctors while remaining his own!
I love 9
Always found this episode really bland. Probably just cos of the cinematography, tbf.
I really hate this 2 parter, I thought it was worse than Love and Monsters.
I thike the rehble flash and the alomost pepole the wost twopeter ever one of mywost evers story i.did not rebhle fiesh but i iikle the alomte pepele
this story is honestly just broing IMO.... i don't remember anything from this other than the cliffhanger at the end
Yo I know it was just a typo but broing is totally the sound the springs in sonic adventure make
Mgooy yep, you may have achieved the goal of most random reply in history 🏆 😂
(Very true though, yes it is)
Yeah that son had no idea how to act, and don’t give me the “he’s just a kid” argument. Go watch Halloween 2018 and watch the black kid in that movie, he’s awesome