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This is unironically a prime video showing that hand traps do not help people going second. They help the turn player steamroll. Going second against 4 unknown interruptions is unhealthy yugioh.
"You cannot play around something you cannot see." Incredible quote. I played purrely on my way to top 4 in my locals tournement. Great player, grabbed purrely street off prosperity instead of crossout post side and my tenpai hand had ash ogre d.d. crow. It is just so difficult to call it.
"Konami does not ban Flood gates because they help the bad players" - sure. That's why good players abuse them. "You can't by pass the non-engine cards" - That only applies if you think you are obligated to play in a specific way. As many people in this comment section mentioned already, strategies like Runick or Mystic Mine absolutely saw competitive success up to even winning YCSs. Surely people that played Topologic Dragon discard or other degenerate stuff care about that. Hand traps keep the popular decks in line only because they revolve around monster effects. "Summons triple Charles and you cannot break that" - With... what? There are more than 2 board breakers in this game. Imagine if there was only a card that cannot be responded to and could remove key cards your opponents controls... idk.. Like Supepoly or Kaijus'. Unless they have some absolutely degenerate board with 5 negates like old Dryton, there is no shot you cannot break it. "If you ever run into these guys [rogue/tier 2 strategies], it's an instant lose." - Where is the proof or explanation of this? This looks opinion-based at best. "Yeah [...] I am sorry , what are you board breaking, you are getting floodgated my guy." Amazing argument - it's almost as if board breakers are non-engine that are designed to remove multiple threats from the opponent. Your follow up is weak because you get locked? Sure. That is true. But the previous argument makes no sense at all. As others mentioned, lightning storm, duster, evenly and so on are made so those floodgates are removed. Are we counting lingering effects as floodgates too? Is Shifter a part of this discussion? You get Shiftered and your boar is weak - sure. But the point of this video is that Board Breakers are bad and inferior to Handtraps in every way, even though it's the breakers that remove the skill drain, the summon limit, the TCBOO. Handtraps due nothing to this. What was your example of hand? Ash, Veiler, Mourner and Nibiru, yes? What do those do in floodgates? Nothing. You just sit there and cannot play the game. Is droplet the only board breaker you ever use? Or things that only breaker effect monsters or activated monster effects? No lightning storm, no book of eclipse, no superpoly, no kaiju's? And of course, if you play board breakers you are going to build around it to cover your weaknesses. For example, Dark Ruler no more is a TERRIBLE board breaker. Absolutely horrendous in general, but in Flunder? It complements the deck like no other. I dislike it as much as the next guy, but you cannot deny that that card is good in their deck - and that's the point, you play the board breaker that helps your deck the most and covers for your weaknesses - not just "the best" [in this case Droplet] in every deck and think "oh.. this is a good boarbreaker so it must go well with every deck that wants to play board breakers". Absolutely insane to suggest that the way you break a board is not decide in 90% of cases with your deck choice and deck building. "The way to beat floodgates as we mentioned earlier is to play handtraps" - you got to love it when you try to make a separate point and you have to rely on your previous point which is shaky at best. "I think I made some pretty good points" - The only thing I could possibly agree with is that board breakers do not work against every deck, but that's the point. You build your deck and the you only add the board breakers that cover your weaknesses so you actually have an over all decent chance no matter what deck you are facing. Your point simply implies that you'll put the same board breakers in every board breaker deck you play and then they don't work because you face different strategies. Of course that is the case. No deck does well against all the other decks and not one board breaker will do well against any board your opponent puts up.
One important thing that I think wasn't conveyed properly is that while yes handtraps work against every deck they are way less impactful than boardbreakers and only show their effectiveness if drawn in multiples except for haymakers like Nibiru and your opponent doesn't play around it in the slightest. For me it felt that your arguments were built on the premise of drawing multiple handtraps while only having access to one boardbreaker. For example if you are up against Snake-eyes one imperm or ash blossom most like won't stop your opponent just like one droplet or duster won't do the trick. To take one more of your examples with Centur-Ion: In this hypothetical scenario they open a full gas hand with Primera, Emblema, Stand-Up and Wake-up stopping them even with two or three handtraps might prove difficult especially if you don't have the right composition of them, but on the other hand one Metaltronis or Droplets can take care of the Calamity lock themselves. What I believe is that you can't mix Handtraps and boardbreakers when constructing like you used to (e.g. 9 HT + 3 Talents, 2 LS), because then either your opponent plays through your hand traps because you didn't draw enough of them or you don't have access to enough breakers after they established their board through your one ash. In short you have to go all in on one strategy which makes it difficult for breakers this format because of the omega loop.
I agree on this, more often than not decks are being designed to beat handtraps and have weaker choke points, and tons of meta decks will just play crossout to play through even more, so even two handtraps may not be enough. Besides this, it's not feasible for lower tier strategies to play upwards of 16 handtraps, whereas you can do good with less space because of the extra consistency of drawing the breakers as 6th card. And for the point about "floodgates" like puppet and calamity, there are effective breakers that do stop them completely, you don't need to rely on handtraps, play something like bystials or droplet that can stop them just fine!!!
I agree on the take but the floodgate argument seems wonky when their are board breakers like lightning storm and harpies feather duster that are good into floodgates. So saying board breakers are bad into those types of floodgates is incorrect, but I understand the point and agree on the most part
I see what you’re trying to say as well but im more referring to things that break monster boards such as dark ruler and droplet because trying to stop their board then dealing with the floodgate after is impossible, now there is an argument u can draw both droplet and lightning storm but also at that point its also weird because most modern tier 1 decks nowadays have layered interruption (an example would be like princess in grave) so to even break the monster portion then lightning storm the flood then also beating the 2nd layer of the board with less cards in hand seem pretty unreleastic
You are both missing the point of specific decks thriving with boardbreak approach allowing a bigger engine to dismantle a board on its own. For example Branded prefers Droplet and Talent over 9 handtraps to increase consistency and have high impact non engine while it naturally counters layered interaction that comes mostly in the form of removal (like princess). This is why I find such generic statements subjective (player bias) while the objective take is that the answer to boardbreaks vs handtraps solely relies on YOUR deck first and then the current meta.
I enjoyed this video overall but I don't think the "hand traps are better vs floodgates than board breakers" argument makes sense. Everything else made sense.
@@kennyygo only deck with many layered interruptions is snake eyes when you put the example of one droplet vs full board and 4 hand traps of course you wont be able to break the board
the issue is just one card combo decks, as long as konami makes stupid decks like snake eyes then board breakers can't exist. we've had several formats that were extremely healthy in that regard, and pretty much all of them didnt play as much hand traps/non engine (tear played like 9 bystials and that's it, you didn't need 3 hand traps to stop decks like unchained or else)
There are some decks that work better with a breaker approach. Like unchained for example. Not too much room for non-engine so the 10 or so cards tend to be breakers in the form of thrust (can also get to engine), talent, droplet, etc
This guy opened exodia tho. No one is beating this in the mirror. I do get your point tho. Once meta goes back to build a board and people side DRNM all other breakers will follow
evenly is the best board breaker tho. It eats everything but 1 card in any matchup. Few decks put up an omni negate with baronne and savage banned. 100% agree that going all in on board breakers in main is a bad idea, but siding them is necessary.
Also hand trap do not beat board breakers. Example if its a mirror and you or myself has summon limit if I play through HTs you loose. This is why card was banned. Even if I barely play through it. If we are in a hand trap was and neither of us have the Bystial it comes down to who can commit to the board better to play through limit or get to the pheonix. If you can not you have to think do I pass in pheonix plus barely anything. If this is the case in the mirror you must leave the summon limit up until you can destroy it and truly make a real board. So tbh nothing beats flootgates except a card that immediately removes it or removes it before you opponent gains too much advantage. So basically, hand traps DO NOT beat flood gates. If I play against dark world and they open insane and I hand trap them twice and they end on basic hight attack monsters and resolve a skill drain your hand traps did nothing for you. You basically hand looped yourself. Prime example hand traps aint helping you when runick stun flip up and rivarly or a skill drain against snake eyes pure. So, basically that logic is beyond flawed. Personally, I blame redundance for the ban of summon limit as I would have rather seen skill drain go instead. Our mirror did not need this card to be sided at all and on top of all of that you can make summon limit happen going first get hand trapped and loose against it because you play so much non engine even after side board your opp seen the bystial and a way to play and you loose to it like I mentioned earlier. I would have rather avoided that but when every goes to summon limit for no reason players begin to follow because people dont want to earn a real win. Because of that situation of you possibly loosing to summon limit because of variance and situational scenarios I would not play it. Jmo. Still in all that does not mean because I win in that scenario that summon limit isnt a decent side if not very good and it also doesnt mean that hand traps will beat it. I agree we are in a HT format but if gamma was around thrusts and storm would be very good because we wouldnt have to play mediocre hand traps like belle and mourner
So basically if you can loose to your own flood gate in any situation there is no reason at all to play it. However, I get why players did. Black goat laughs would give you same value against pure and is chainable 80 percent of time... but then there is fire king. I get it. It just was NOT needed and horrible hit by Konami. Meanwhile skill drain is at 3 yall because they think decks should loosebto runick stun players. And we all know that is the only reason why that card did not get hit
Droplet vs Runick stun is insane as long as the stun player has negative IQ. Just wait a few turns until they're sitting on hugin, chain link 1 duster/storm, chain link 2 droppet negate hugin, GG
damn, i just got top 8 at dutch nationals playing 6 boardbreakers main and 13 in side, cant relate i guess, but i do agree in that i need to have some different side cards
Surely you don’t mean that every single deck should do this right ? Runick stun simply does not sustain the ability to play handtraps. You can play a few in the side but even then it just feels like it goes against the nature of the deck.
"floodgates help the bad players" You mean all those YCS winning decks using Summon Limit, Anti Spell and now Skill Drain? Cristian Urena glue eater confirmed? Or the bad player Ryan Yu who only wins with Labrynth because he is lucky to draw his floodgates? (sarcasm of course, watching a single game especially when he's losing and how he manages his resources effectively stealing wins through sheer skill turning then around is way more skillful than executing a memorized combo from a spreadsheet). From 2008 were I could follow competitive since earlier years i was semi-competitive, a floodgates will ALWAYS become an issue as soon as a "combo" deck incorporates it. They dont have to be full gas wombo combo, even a midrange deck that has a higher ceiling (combo capabilities compares to the other high tier decks of the format) when it can find the sweet spot where a game winning floodgate either doesn't affect it or can be disabled on demand or is searchable. For example Mystic Mine "the deck" was a meme hardly winning despite so many attempts, but the moment even Tear starting using it everyone found how truly oppressive it is
Small question: The end board you showed isnt a one card combo tho right? I dont think a single SE ash can get princess in the grave on top of apo, flamberge and IP? Or is there a new combo I missed?
This man said floodgates are to help “bad” players… well .. sorry my one skill drain and 2 secs of setting it is better then the five to ten mins it took you to summon appo. Hurt my feelings
This... If the tables are turned and the same player handtraps your entire strategy or has an Appo to stop you, "its fair" because its the exact same. It just takes longer to do, so its "fair". I dont care if a player with a 1000 dollar deck is ragequitting over Skilldrain.
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This is unironically a prime video showing that hand traps do not help people going second. They help the turn player steamroll.
Going second against 4 unknown interruptions is unhealthy yugioh.
"You cannot play around something you cannot see." Incredible quote. I played purrely on my way to top 4 in my locals tournement. Great player, grabbed purrely street off prosperity instead of crossout post side and my tenpai hand had ash ogre d.d. crow. It is just so difficult to call it.
"Konami does not ban Flood gates because they help the bad players" - sure. That's why good players abuse them.
"You can't by pass the non-engine cards" - That only applies if you think you are obligated to play in a specific way. As many people in this comment section mentioned already, strategies like Runick or Mystic Mine absolutely saw competitive success up to even winning YCSs. Surely people that played Topologic Dragon discard or other degenerate stuff care about that. Hand traps keep the popular decks in line only because they revolve around monster effects.
"Summons triple Charles and you cannot break that" - With... what? There are more than 2 board breakers in this game. Imagine if there was only a card that cannot be responded to and could remove key cards your opponents controls... idk.. Like Supepoly or Kaijus'. Unless they have some absolutely degenerate board with 5 negates like old Dryton, there is no shot you cannot break it.
"If you ever run into these guys [rogue/tier 2 strategies], it's an instant lose." - Where is the proof or explanation of this? This looks opinion-based at best. "Yeah [...] I am sorry , what are you board breaking, you are getting floodgated my guy." Amazing argument - it's almost as if board breakers are non-engine that are designed to remove multiple threats from the opponent.
Your follow up is weak because you get locked? Sure. That is true. But the previous argument makes no sense at all. As others mentioned, lightning storm, duster, evenly and so on are made so those floodgates are removed.
Are we counting lingering effects as floodgates too? Is Shifter a part of this discussion? You get Shiftered and your boar is weak - sure. But the point of this video is that Board Breakers are bad and inferior to Handtraps in every way, even though it's the breakers that remove the skill drain, the summon limit, the TCBOO. Handtraps due nothing to this.
What was your example of hand? Ash, Veiler, Mourner and Nibiru, yes? What do those do in floodgates? Nothing. You just sit there and cannot play the game.
Is droplet the only board breaker you ever use? Or things that only breaker effect monsters or activated monster effects? No lightning storm, no book of eclipse, no superpoly, no kaiju's?
And of course, if you play board breakers you are going to build around it to cover your weaknesses. For example, Dark Ruler no more is a TERRIBLE board breaker. Absolutely horrendous in general, but in Flunder? It complements the deck like no other. I dislike it as much as the next guy, but you cannot deny that that card is good in their deck - and that's the point, you play the board breaker that helps your deck the most and covers for your weaknesses - not just "the best" [in this case Droplet] in every deck and think "oh.. this is a good boarbreaker so it must go well with every deck that wants to play board breakers".
Absolutely insane to suggest that the way you break a board is not decide in 90% of cases with your deck choice and deck building.
"The way to beat floodgates as we mentioned earlier is to play handtraps" - you got to love it when you try to make a separate point and you have to rely on your previous point which is shaky at best.
"I think I made some pretty good points" - The only thing I could possibly agree with is that board breakers do not work against every deck, but that's the point. You build your deck and the you only add the board breakers that cover your weaknesses so you actually have an over all decent chance no matter what deck you are facing. Your point simply implies that you'll put the same board breakers in every board breaker deck you play and then they don't work because you face different strategies. Of course that is the case. No deck does well against all the other decks and not one board breaker will do well against any board your opponent puts up.
One important thing that I think wasn't conveyed properly is that while yes handtraps work against every deck they are way less impactful than boardbreakers and only show their effectiveness if drawn in multiples except for haymakers like Nibiru and your opponent doesn't play around it in the slightest. For me it felt that your arguments were built on the premise of drawing multiple handtraps while only having access to one boardbreaker.
For example if you are up against Snake-eyes one imperm or ash blossom most like won't stop your opponent just like one droplet or duster won't do the trick. To take one more of your examples with Centur-Ion: In this hypothetical scenario they open a full gas hand with Primera, Emblema, Stand-Up and Wake-up stopping them even with two or three handtraps might prove difficult especially if you don't have the right composition of them, but on the other hand one Metaltronis or Droplets can take care of the Calamity lock themselves.
What I believe is that you can't mix Handtraps and boardbreakers when constructing like you used to (e.g. 9 HT + 3 Talents, 2 LS), because then either your opponent plays through your hand traps because you didn't draw enough of them or you don't have access to enough breakers after they established their board through your one ash. In short you have to go all in on one strategy which makes it difficult for breakers this format because of the omega loop.
I agree on this, more often than not decks are being designed to beat handtraps and have weaker choke points, and tons of meta decks will just play crossout to play through even more, so even two handtraps may not be enough.
Besides this, it's not feasible for lower tier strategies to play upwards of 16 handtraps, whereas you can do good with less space because of the extra consistency of drawing the breakers as 6th card.
And for the point about "floodgates" like puppet and calamity, there are effective breakers that do stop them completely, you don't need to rely on handtraps, play something like bystials or droplet that can stop them just fine!!!
Breaking Boards is fun, tough and a good learning tool for newer players imo. But you are still right.
I agree, id prefer the game this way but konami just loves making it near impossible
I agree on the take but the floodgate argument seems wonky when their are board breakers like lightning storm and harpies feather duster that are good into floodgates. So saying board breakers are bad into those types of floodgates is incorrect, but I understand the point and agree on the most part
I see what you’re trying to say as well but im more referring to things that break monster boards such as dark ruler and droplet because trying to stop their board then dealing with the floodgate after is impossible,
now there is an argument u can draw both droplet and lightning storm but also at that point its also weird because most modern tier 1 decks nowadays have layered interruption (an example would be like princess in grave) so to even break the monster portion then lightning storm the flood then also beating the 2nd layer of the board with less cards in hand seem pretty unreleastic
@@kennyygo yea that makes more sense. Monster board breakers aren’t that good unless the best deck in a format auto loses to them.
You are both missing the point of specific decks thriving with boardbreak approach allowing a bigger engine to dismantle a board on its own.
For example Branded prefers Droplet and Talent over 9 handtraps to increase consistency and have high impact non engine while it naturally counters layered interaction that comes mostly in the form of removal (like princess).
This is why I find such generic statements subjective (player bias) while the objective take is that the answer to boardbreaks vs handtraps solely relies on YOUR deck first and then the current meta.
I enjoyed this video overall but I don't think the "hand traps are better vs floodgates than board breakers" argument makes sense. Everything else made sense.
@@kennyygo only deck with many layered interruptions is snake eyes when you put the example of one droplet vs full board and 4 hand traps of course you wont be able to break the board
the issue is just one card combo decks, as long as konami makes stupid decks like snake eyes then board breakers can't exist. we've had several formats that were extremely healthy in that regard, and pretty much all of them didnt play as much hand traps/non engine (tear played like 9 bystials and that's it, you didn't need 3 hand traps to stop decks like unchained or else)
There are some decks that work better with a breaker approach. Like unchained for example. Not too much room for non-engine so the 10 or so cards tend to be breakers in the form of thrust (can also get to engine), talent, droplet, etc
This guy opened exodia tho. No one is beating this in the mirror. I do get your point tho. Once meta goes back to build a board and people side DRNM all other breakers will follow
evenly is the best board breaker tho. It eats everything but 1 card in any matchup. Few decks put up an omni negate with baronne and savage banned. 100% agree that going all in on board breakers in main is a bad idea, but siding them is necessary.
Also hand trap do not beat board breakers. Example if its a mirror and you or myself has summon limit if I play through HTs you loose. This is why card was banned. Even if I barely play through it. If we are in a hand trap was and neither of us have the Bystial it comes down to who can commit to the board better to play through limit or get to the pheonix. If you can not you have to think do I pass in pheonix plus barely anything. If this is the case in the mirror you must leave the summon limit up until you can destroy it and truly make a real board. So tbh nothing beats flootgates except a card that immediately removes it or removes it before you opponent gains too much advantage. So basically, hand traps DO NOT beat flood gates. If I play against dark world and they open insane and I hand trap them twice and they end on basic hight attack monsters and resolve a skill drain your hand traps did nothing for you. You basically hand looped yourself. Prime example hand traps aint helping you when runick stun flip up and rivarly or a skill drain against snake eyes pure. So, basically that logic is beyond flawed. Personally, I blame redundance for the ban of summon limit as I would have rather seen skill drain go instead. Our mirror did not need this card to be sided at all and on top of all of that you can make summon limit happen going first get hand trapped and loose against it because you play so much non engine even after side board your opp seen the bystial and a way to play and you loose to it like I mentioned earlier. I would have rather avoided that but when every goes to summon limit for no reason players begin to follow because people dont want to earn a real win. Because of that situation of you possibly loosing to summon limit because of variance and situational scenarios I would not play it. Jmo. Still in all that does not mean because I win in that scenario that summon limit isnt a decent side if not very good and it also doesnt mean that hand traps will beat it. I agree we are in a HT format but if gamma was around thrusts and storm would be very good because we wouldnt have to play mediocre hand traps like belle and mourner
So basically if you can loose to your own flood gate in any situation there is no reason at all to play it. However, I get why players did. Black goat laughs would give you same value against pure and is chainable 80 percent of time... but then there is fire king. I get it. It just was NOT needed and horrible hit by Konami. Meanwhile skill drain is at 3 yall because they think decks should loosebto runick stun players. And we all know that is the only reason why that card did not get hit
Do not beat floodgates*
Droplet vs Runick stun is insane as long as the stun player has negative IQ. Just wait a few turns until they're sitting on hugin, chain link 1 duster/storm, chain link 2 droppet negate hugin, GG
I agree wit you,u made a good point
damn, i just got top 8 at dutch nationals playing 6 boardbreakers main and 13 in side, cant relate i guess, but i do agree in that i need to have some different side cards
Surely you don’t mean that every single deck should do this right ? Runick stun simply does not sustain the ability to play handtraps. You can play a few in the side but even then it just feels like it goes against the nature of the deck.
Yeah of course not, honestly I think runick just breaks every rule of deck building so im not applying this to that deck Lol
of course you dont play hand traps. your deck is a floodgate and pray its enough deck
I don't know, i evenly se players and then normal summon dyna and they scoop. Seems pretty good to me. ❤
"floodgates help the bad players"
You mean all those YCS winning decks using Summon Limit, Anti Spell and now Skill Drain? Cristian Urena glue eater confirmed?
Or the bad player Ryan Yu who only wins with Labrynth because he is lucky to draw his floodgates? (sarcasm of course, watching a single game especially when he's losing and how he manages his resources effectively stealing wins through sheer skill turning then around is way more skillful than executing a memorized combo from a spreadsheet).
From 2008 were I could follow competitive since earlier years i was semi-competitive, a floodgates will ALWAYS become an issue as soon as a "combo" deck incorporates it. They dont have to be full gas wombo combo, even a midrange deck that has a higher ceiling (combo capabilities compares to the other high tier decks of the format) when it can find the sweet spot where a game winning floodgate either doesn't affect it or can be disabled on demand or is searchable.
For example Mystic Mine "the deck" was a meme hardly winning despite so many attempts, but the moment even Tear starting using it everyone found how truly oppressive it is
Hi Kenny I was looking for your runick counters video but cant find it, is it deleted?
hamtraps gud
Small question:
The end board you showed isnt a one card combo tho right? I dont think a single SE ash can get princess in the grave on top of apo, flamberge and IP? Or is there a new combo I missed?
This man said floodgates are to help “bad” players… well .. sorry my one skill drain and 2 secs of setting it is better then the five to ten mins it took you to summon appo. Hurt my feelings
This... If the tables are turned and the same player handtraps your entire strategy or has an Appo to stop you, "its fair" because its the exact same. It just takes longer to do, so its "fair".
I dont care if a player with a 1000 dollar deck is ragequitting over Skilldrain.
So... what is the solution?
gimmick puppet and calamity both lose to droplets, as well as other board breakers :/
and the pseudo ftk boards / infinite negate boards lose to drnm