The Return of the Sequential Prophet 5! Is it using Voice Component Modeling? - LTS - 10/23/2020
Вставка
- Опубліковано 9 чер 2024
- The Return of the Sequential Prophet 5! Is it using Voice Component Modeling? - LTS - 10/23/2020
Now that Sequential Circuits has come through and delivered a re-issue of the famous Prophet 5 and Prophet 10 synthesizers I got the Synth Lizards back to talk about how the Prophet 5 rev 4 (and Prophet 10) are able to authentically capture the previous rev 1, rev 2 and rev 3 versions of the Prophet 5? There is a compelling article published by Creative Spiral which explains in great detail what he calls "Voice Component Modeling" or VCM. We discuss the concept of this, Mr CowFood demos this on his Prophet Rev 2 Synthesizer and I show how the Vintage knob on the Prophet 10 sounds.
We also touch on some news, like the Behringer APR 2600 price and the new Novation AFX Station.
Guests for this show:
Aaron Russell: / @impurfekt
Mr CowFood: / cowfood
EchoKraft: / @echokraft
Check out VCM:
voicecomponentmodeling.com/
Watch Creative Spiral demo how to set up and use VCM on his Prophet Rev 2:
• Prophet Rev2 Soundset ...
Check out the interview with Dave Smith on the AudioNowcast here on UA-cam where they discuss the Prophet Rev 4:
• AudioNowcast episode 2...
Topics
0:00 Intros
2:09 What is VCM?
10:27 VCM Demo on a Prophet Rev 2
12:40 Vintage Knob Demo on Prophet 10
13:57 More VCM discussion
22:26 Behringer ARP 2600 price
28:11 Novation AFX Station
39:20 Behringer MonoPoly
40:26 My take on the Prophet 10
48:40 Prophet 10 sound demo
52:45 More on VCM
1:02:00 Outro
Tags:
#Prophet5rev4
#Prophet10
#VCM
#VoiceComponentModeling
#Synthesizer
#BehringerArp2600
#NovationAFXStation
#NovationBassStationII
#LTS
#LetsTalkSynths
#AudioNowcast
Follow me on SoundCloud: / marshalarnold
If you want to find out more about me, please visit my website at: www.marshalarnold.com
I just wanted to chime in a bit more on the prophet rev2 vcm.
I showcased an extreme example to illustrate what is happening. The actual use incorporates (in the rev2) the use of modulation slots to refine the granularity of pitching offsets from the gate sequencer resulting in much much more pleasing, less broken synth sounding chords. In my scenario I had 50 cents of tune per step (extreme), where with proper settings you can get around .5 cents for very subtle almost inaudible fluctuations. -> see the links to Creative Spirals hard work in the show comments to see how its done or better yet, purchase his vcm patch set for the rev 2 :)
Time to listen to the proper stream and see if the Rev 2 still sounds like a Casio...
@@impurfekt lol!
Thanks for the shoutout :) This video shows off a good example of VCM techniques on Rev2. ua-cam.com/video/jB9HG3k3vvQ/v-deo.html I've been meaning to record some more content on my VCM research and techniques... will try to get a more comprehensive video presentation online soon.
I‘ve been using VCM on the Rev2 for some months, and it‘s fantastic! The only drawback: it occupies many of the few (8) mod slots.
Don‘t know why the P5/10 should use VCM, though. It has vintage VCO clones which should be slightly out of tune by nature, as opposed to the DCOs of the Rev2.
@@RayyMusik Modern voice boards (VCOs, VCFs, VCAs, ENVs) developed with 21st century manufacturing have tighter electrical tolerances than those developed 30-40 years ago, so a modern VCO poly synth will still have some tuning imperfections, but not nearly as much as a MemoryMoog, Jupiter or Prophet that was developed with manufacturing technologies 40 years ago. In addition, electrical components degrade over time. Capacitors, resistors and other components can have significantly different performance 5, 10, 20, 0r 40 years after initially manufactured. The Vintage knob uses voice modeling to virtually age the components to emulate 70s/80s electrical tolerances, and the aging of components from voice-to-voice. In addition, many modern VCO synths use digital envelopes (P5r4 included), and this method can be used to give small ADR timing offsets like you would find when comparing voice boards from Poly Synths in the Golden Age of synthesis (70s/80s) So this allows modern VCO, DCO or Digital Synths to have per-voice performance like a synth built back then. There is another topic of VCO frequency jitter / phase jitter which I also studied, however that is a separate topic, and a modern VCO synth doesn't necessarily need any modeling to emulate that... though it can be useful for DCO/Digital.
53:00 - Regarding using the slow LFO random - I have investigated this method in depth and done comparisons with this method. (ua-cam.com/video/8YxHCPU0T54/v-deo.html) The downsides of the Poly LFO Random are: 1. It's using Random SH procedure, so you will get random note triggers when voices/oscillators get LFO values at their extremes, causing extreme dissonance, so you can only use it at small values. You're essentially playing russian roulette with LFO phase, and you may get beautiful, natural phasing, but on other chords, you might get weird dissonance. With VCM, you can control everything with curated offsets per-voice, per osc. Also, another downside with the LFO method is that it's not repeatable between sessions. You might play during a recording session and everything lines up nicely, but take that same synth/patch on the road and it will sound significantly different. With VCM its repeatable from session to session. In the big picture, previous method of using Slop / Osc Drift or LFO methods to virtually age instruments is too reliant on randomness and artificial motion, whereas VCM is much more focused on curated, stable offsets. It's Randomness vs Order, in the approach to making things sound more vintage... and if you take measurements from the classic 70s/80s synths, you'll see that there is this type of order to their per-voice performance, based on small electrical threshold differences and aging of voice boards.
GREAT SHOW Marshal, GREAT GUESTS!!!😎
Yo DuKEY DuQ! Thank you sir!
Enjoyed the show, Marshal!
Hey Tim! Many thanks 😁👍
On the rev 4 Prophet, keyboard aftertouch can be routed to only 2 things: filter cutoff or LFO. There is a button called "Aftertouch" on the upper-right-most position of the synth. 4 modes: Filter, LFO, both, or neither. Congrats on your new synth. SO cool.
Awesome, thanks Station 2Station! Don't know how I missed that, but was on the spot and hadn't noticed 😁.
@@MarshalArnold You have "new synth eyes". Overjoyed by the lust and beauty. Not to mention live on camera like you mentioned.
Totally, new synth eyes can blind you and mis obvious things lol. At least I remembered where the vintage knob was hahaha
subscribed! love it
Hey Tom, awesome thank you! 😁
This is primo content !
Many thanks, Justin!
Another way to do VCM with a multitimbral synth is to set up 8 identical patches, then tweak each to have subtle differences. On some synths you can cycle through the voices as you play, but if not, you can put ‘em all on separate channels and edit the notes in your DAW (or use alternate means) to cycle through them.
Yup... this would work... unfortunately, not many true multitimbral synths on the market... would love to see some more high voice count multitimbrals. Also, any synth that offers "Voice Number" as a mod source, can achieve at least a rudimentary type of voice modeling. The Deepmind and upcoming PolyBrute are two examples... If you route Voice Number > Osc Frequency 1/2 independently with different values, you will get a basic VCM effect. For more authentic control route Voice Number > Note Number > Osc Freq in order to capture per voice osc scaling / intonation - which is the behavior that I measured most in my studies. Also, routing Voice Num > ADR timings and other characteristics can further capture the per-voice behavior of classic golden age poly synths and acoustic ensembles (strings, brass, wind, etc)
To clarify on the "AFX" Station:
"This limited edition version of the Bass Station II is equal parts collector's item and fully functional instrument for performers, restylized to focus on the incredible functionality of the 4.14 firmware, including the titular AFX Mode."
It's a BSII with a new paint job released alongside a firmware update. Similar to what Elektron did with the black A4. If it ain't broke, capitalize it I guess.
I believe they are trying to make synthesis titillating again.. images.app.goo.gl/jmG2xcbp5sjtUKr18
Sorry but a crash course in afx/apex twin/aphex twin/rdj/polygon window/and a shit ton of other pseudonyms is needed...
@@MrCowfood Someone at Novation really likes Aphex Twin. Maybe Marshal can get that person on for an interview to explain what this is all about.
@@impurfekt Well, there was a time in my life where all I listened to was aphex twin.. They are targeting me!
Hey! Cool to see you on video (only really follow your other channel though so maybe you’re on this one more?)
Is there even any confirmation from DSI/Sequential that this component modeling was even used on the Prophet 5 Rev4? Or are you just guessing he might be?
(In a recent interview he was talking about it and explaining the Vintage knob was explicitly stated to be "giving away trade secrets". It doesn't seem like it would be a 'trade secret' if he was just using a standard modeling technology that is known about.)
Is totally speculation on my part, and I even say in the show that I'm speculating. I however found it interesting that the concept of VCM could possibly achieve what has been implemented in the new Prophet 5/10 and demonstrated by a Rev 2 owner months ago. Pretty interesting 😁
@@MarshalArnold I'd definitely love to know how he did it.
My theory would be much more low-level - that since Dave designed and built the originals, he can assess his past circuit design choices and maybe he just figured out how to re-create those non-linearities on a modern Prophet.
He admitted that the original Prophets' components all had slightly different resistance values (and other inconsistencies) that colored the overall sound with their imperfections. He's a very hands-on designer, he even does the circuit design and programs the software, it's not beyond him to actually pull off encapsulating all his previous revisions into one keyboard.
That's at least what I'm hoping, that it's a real authentic endeavor. Either way, props to him for putting his neck out for this project.
I'm getting the P5 Rev4 mid-November, I'm looking forward to seeing how it compares with my Prophet 6.
Agreed! The fact that Dave gave this to the world is amazing and I love that Dave himself was involved in its development. Dave is one of the most talented people on the planet when it comes to Synth design, however he accomplished this I don't know, but I love it!
It was discussed a bunch on the Gearslutz thread... The Vintage Knob is using Voice Modeling. I had discussions with Pym/Chris about a year and half ago on the Sequential forum as well... (forum.sequential.com/index.php/topic,3449.0.html) and he basically previewed that he would be working on this and implementing it just like they did on the P5r4.... with a single knob macro controlling a bunch of voice offsets to tunings, ADR timings, and other characteristics. They don't want to divulge the exact recipe and parameters being controlled, as they want to keep it a bit of a trade secret.... which I totally understand. But yeah, it's Voice Component Modeling via a single macro knob, giving offsets to a bunch of per-voice parameters.
Here is where that discussion was ua-cam.com/video/FGL3JQDJjYo/v-deo.htmlm40s
AFAIK the modulators (LFO, Envs et al) on all modern analogue synths (since about 1984) are actually digital (even though the original P5 had analogue modulators) so that brings the possibility of purposely randomising/variations on filter/envelopes/tuning/LFO per voice. Would be wonderful to have this implemented on other synths like the OB6 as that would probably take it closer to the original OBXa/SEM sound.
btw nice view of the Prophet (wood looks beautiful). Mine is coming end of Nov. I also have the Korg ARP 2600. Not interested in the original models anymore... would love Roland to reissue the Juno 60 and JP6/8. Also OBXa.
Yes, per-voice offsets to ADR timings and other components contributes to classic poly synth character. The ADR timing variance per-voice is especially prominent with stacked/unison patches, and when doing high resonant sweeps (like Tom Sawyer sweeps). Here's an article I wrote up on ADR timing variation per voice: www.presetpatch.com/articles/Voice-Modeling-of-Synth-Envelopes
@@CreativeSpiral good stuff!
I wish one of you guys lived in Hermosa Beach
Pretty far from me, totally other side of the country 😁
where did you get that flashing graphic backdrop
Hey Dean! That is an LED video curtain. I picked it up on Alibaba years ago. If you search online you'll find these, but you want to get the smallest spacing between LEDs that you can afford. Also want to make sure if you want to pass video into it to make sure the processor it comes with has that functionality. Most are DMX control and don't do real-time video. Hope that helps!
@@MarshalArnold is this usb connected or could you share me a link of the basic dmx kit id need, got hue lights in my studio so all good there !
The one I have connects to the PC via ethernet. The screen then connects via 2 DMX xlr cables. The software on the PC then connects up via IP. It's probably super old school compared to what's available now. If all you need is a processor you'll need to look around for a DMX controler that's compatible with your screen. Am pretty sure they make them with HDMI in and all that jazz, but I'm not sure what there is out there now days..
@@MarshalArnold Thanks, but 2 sentences in was lost, especially having adhd ! Hence audio links work for me, thanks though ! gonna give up on that idea ! ill just paint something in fluorescent paint ! Cheers mate appreciate your time
Ah, sorry didn't mean to confuse ya. I'll see if I can find a link to my setup, might help ya.
I am also Marshall Arnold
Doppelganger! Lol, but I'm minus one l 😁
I watched this but feel pretty unenlightened about how/if VCM is implemented in the Prophet.
The vintage knob acts like a macro control for a large table full of offsets, per voice. The offsets target each oscillator independantly, ADR envelope timings, and perhaps other parameters like filter cutoff VCA amount, or other behaviors. Imagine a table of all these parameters, with small offsets on a per-voice basis. As you turn the knob "back in time" toward the Rev 3, 2, 1 - the table interpolates through the table of values to give offsets to each parameter, per voice. These small offsets to osc tuning per voice creates natural phasing that you would find if you measure classic synths or analog ensembles. Offsets to ADR timings and other parameters further emulate the per-voice variance that all classic synths have... especially after 30-40 years of aging to electrical components. When I was researching this, I recorded hundreds of samples from multiple MemoryMoogs, OBX, OBXa, Prophet 5/10, PolySix, CS-80, MiniMoog, Jupiter 4, Jupiter 8, and others... these per voice offsets were what I measured, and that lead me to writing up the article/paper on VCM, and experimenting with modeling it on Rev2, Deepmind and other synths.
Is VCM the future?
Marshal Arnold yes it is.
I suppose so. It's also the past. The system 8 works that way. It uses FPGA's to recreate the vintage circuitry, and in that way it reproduces the 'sound' of some vintage roland synths pretty authentically.
The new prophet reissues may use something similar for some parts of the circuitry as well. However, the do use actual SSI and Curtiss chips to generate it's basic sound. You can switch between Curtiss and SSI filter chips, so that part isn't modelled, but the actual components (or modern equivalents) are used to generate the basic sound.
I'm skeptical that VCM itself will see wide implementation. But the idea is here to stay and already exists in various forms ("vintage", "slop", "age", etc.). What I like is that a person can implement a similar concept on any synth with a good modulation matrix. It's inspired me to try new things with my synths.
Well, I totally think its the future for vintagizing synthesis. It mimics minute fluctuations across each voice osc each vca each filter each envelope. This is the 'alive' or 3dness of aging components in analog synths. Expanding this to include random values within a range for each gate step and you have something even more alive so yes obviously the future.
@@impurfekt It's a big improvement over Slop. Slop is reliant on constant artificial drifting for each osc tuning. You would not find this behavior in classic synths. Voice modeling relies on per-voice offsets that are relatively stable.. Natural phasing occurs when you have small stable offsets to osc tuning. In addition, VCM targets additional parameters beyond the osc tunings... notably ADR timing offsets, filter cutoff and other parameters. On the VCM website, I've got a bunch of additional info and analysis VCM vs slop/lfos and other methods.
How did you get a prophet 10 already?
Well, I ordered one and it showed up on Monday 😁
@@MarshalArnold lol!
"How did you get one?"
*I bought it*
@@auxorion Most places are still pre-order, that's why the question was asked...
@@neonether totally, especially overseas. I heard other countries may not see units till November sometime.
@@MarshalArnold I was on preorder and have not received anything from sweetwater. Will contact them and find out what happened
I am also Marshall arnold
It is NOT using Voice Component Modelling ... That is just stupid. I can take anything out of thin air and make up stuff. It has all the chips that create the voice on the board, you can see it yourself. Just search for the PCB of the prophet 5. And if you have one, just open it up. It has VCOs and Filters (actually two sets of it) and VCAs and all in hardware. And that is already the end of the voice stuff inside a P5. All modulation is done virtual ... but that is no voice modelling. It is just a software LFO, Envelope. The result of it is an CV output via a DAC (btw. as in the Prophet 5 originally). So there is no Voice Component Modelling happening and the Vintage Knob is nothing more, to represent the different voltage variations in CV to reflect the spread of the components from yesterday. Some people makeing videos with just guessing (as you admit yourself) and stating it as facts. Really nothing behind it - and pure click bait.
I know that the voices are built on the board. The conversation has to do with how the Vintage knob possibly works. I did not say it was fact, I don't work at Sequential. It was brought to my attention how similar results could potentially be had using the VCM techniques outlined in the article linked in the description. Because we don't have inside info on what Dave called "trade secrets" we have no way to verify, but was interesting IMO and thought it worth talking about.
@@MarshalArnold I do not really like to speculate around something we have absolutely no evidence for and then make it even a thread title ... sorry but that is really something so common nowadays. Even all this conspiracy has the exact same idea in mind. Set up an idea, finde some matching evidences and even ignore everything else. At best you go in with it and say "the fact no one wants you to know" ... and then it is perfect.
I understand, but this is hardly a conspiracy. Personally I don't find anything wrong with speculation. We speculate about everything, in fact I saw a post today with folks speculating on the next synth Sequential is working on.. No one knows but the folks at Sequential, still fun to think and talk about and is not a harmful practice in this rehlm IMO. Is cool to disagree also, you make good observations. We're all fans here.
@SerErris - The Vintage Knob is doing Voice Modeling. You can read up more on the VCM website. ( www.VoiceComponentModeling.com ) Voice modeling uses a table of offsets to various parameters - VCO, VCF, VCA, ENV etc - giving each voice small differences that you would find in classic poly synths of the 70s/80s. I did a bunch of research on the topic a couple years back, recording and measuring hundreds of samples from dozens of classic and modern polys (including CS80, Memorymoogs, P5, P10, Jupiter 4, Jupiter 8, OBX, OBXa, Polysix, etc). In 2019 I published my findings, and sparked up discussion of the topic on the Seq forum, and discussed it with Seq developers back then. You can read through the Seq forum discussion if you want more of a history of this development... Pym/Chris (the lead programmer at Seq) is in the conversation, and he specifically previewed that he would be working on an implementation with a single knob macro doing voice modeling in the future... and the Vintage Knob on P5r4 is exactly that. forum.sequential.com/index.php/topic,3449.msg46777.html#msg46777 This is the first synth they have released with Voice Modeling directly built in, and perhaps the first hardware synth ever to have voice modeling built in. (I haven't been able to figure out if Roland's ACB has used the same type of per-voice modeling on some models... though I analyzed their current ZenCore engine, and ZenCore's vintage modeling is more akin to Slop/OscDrift -- which is a more random/artificial way of achieving vintage modeling, and is mostly focused just on osc tuning, whereas voice modeling targets ADR env timings and other characteristics as well) Anyways, the vintage knob is definitely doing voice modeling. I'm guessing that virtually all future poly synths from Seq will have Voice Modeling implemented in some fashion or another, and probably other manufacturers will follow suit as well. It's a big improvement over Slop and Osc Drift circuits that have mostly been used over the past decade to approximate vintage voice character.