My middle school teacher (god rest her soul) used to hand attack me with a ruler if I didn't write proper cursive. I carry on her legacy by playing these cards.
You missed the single biggest reason hand disruption is so powerful in Yugioh, and that is simply that it provides complete hand knowledge. This is uniquely important to the game for three reasons: 1. Yugioh is the closest to being a "sandbox mode" card game in that decks have a ton of flexibility to build whatever board they like within a certain range during their turn, and knowing what cards your opponent is currently holding gives you vastly increased efficacy in tailor-crafting a board of disruptions that specifically counters the exact tools at your opponent's disposal. 2. Yugioh also places a ton of its counterplay in handtraps, which are like Force of Wills from MtG except they only trigger under certain conditions. Knowing which handtraps your opponent has available means you can perfectly play around their specific triggers and sequence your cards in the optimal fashion for your opponent's handtraps to get little to no mileage. 3. Easily the most important reason, _Yugioh games only last 1-2 turn cycles on average._ This means your opponent's hand barely has time to cycle at all before the game is over. Typically, the outcome of the game is more or less decided after the first turn of each player. Everything after that is, more often than not, prolonging the inevitable. What this means is that if you can get a complete snapshot of your opponent's hand during that first turn specifically - it has a MASSIVELY magnified impact on the outcome of the game compared to games like Magic or Hearthstone that are expected to go on for 7, 10, 15 turns quite regularly. In MtG, getting a snapshot of your opponent's hand on turn 1 isn't that gamebreaking because by turn 4 half or more of that information will be out of date, and by turn 6 you're pretty much completely in the dark about what your opponent is holding. That hand information only influenced the opening stage of the game, but wasn't determinative of the outcome on its own. In Yugioh, getting a single snapshot of your opponent's hand is determinative of the ENTIRE game, because the first and second turns are the beginning, middle, _and_ end of a typical game of Yugioh. Your information only goes 20% out of date by the time the game ends instead of, say, 300% out of date at the end of a typical round of Magic or Hearthstone.
@@bugcatchertimothy7380 People say this but it is just completely untrue, some decks (Primarily Tenpai because it is a blind second try to open 4 boardbreakers/handtraps, and Snake Eye mirror matches) can be like this but sequencing and ability to actually play your deck correctly matter far more than what you open by such an insane degree compared to other cards games (You start with a guaranteed 15 other cards in "hand" through the extra deck), otherwise Top Players wouldnt consistently win worlds or regionals if it was just a game of comparing hands, most yugioh decks have much lower bars for error to perform optimally than even formats like Vintage or Legacy in Magic. There is a reason new players cannot even deal with extremely weak decks if they play meta decks, because Yugioh is a game almost entirely centered around someone's ability to play the game/their deck correctly and properly sequence around and predict interaction. Tldr; Saying Yugioh is a game of comparing hands, is like saying pokemon is a game of whoever has the highest concentration V/VMax/VStars in their deck. Because both of those fundamentally at a glance are true if you ignore any nuance or player expression or circumstances within and outside of the game, but both are bad faith disingenous arguments.
Wrong. Knowledge means fuck all. This is some crap people larp as. Yugioh is all about little girls and I wouldn't be surprised if it was designed by Isis The reason hand disruption is so much worse in Yugioh is everything, literally everything is about ramp, facilitating, and interaction to basically not run cards at all. The way the deck moved from zomes be it field, grave, banish, the extra monster deck, they even say this with the slang "engine" Yugioh isn't a card game, it's a series of scripts that run themselves and some scripts are more consistent than others, some scripts execute a better end board, some scripts counter other scripts pretty well, and I guarantee if it has a little girl on the card it'll do all three
@@gabrielmarcos6923 Yugioh doesn't *really* have multiple formats the way mtg does. There's current advanced which is what every one thinks of, traditional where all cards that are banned are instead at 1, and then "Time Wizard" which is every prior ban list and card pool. So technically yugioh now has as many formats as it does ban lists. Good luck with that beyond the few popular ones you'll find online because most people will just build for current advanced since that's the one most locals use. Good fun to be had in those old lists though, shame it's a massive pain to check the legality of each card
I don't know about Pokemon, but out of the other three, assuming we're talking about standard competitive play, I would say this is the order: Hearthstone is the cheapest since you can obtain a large portion of each expansion by playing the game. MTG is next, from what I've gathered the standard format doesn't have too many expensive cards (if we're talking about the other formats like Commander and Legacy, then MTG is the most expansive by far though). Rotations decrease the value of your collection but the other formats keep the powerful (and expensive) cards worth something And Yugioh is the most expensive, not only are there frequently 100+ dollar cards in meta decks, but Konami bans cards instead of rotating which can make parts of your collection worthless overnight
One thing with yugioh's hand attack is hand knowledge, knowing what your opponent's hand looks like is game warping in yugioh. After discarding/returning the best card your opponent have. You could play around cards like hand traps, you know how to disrupt your opponent at the right time since you know how many starters & extenders they have. Conclusion, designers should not print more hand attack cards.
The very same applies to Magic as well, honestly. Once you've peeked at an opponent's hand, you know their curve and have valuable insight into their gameplan. Because deck construction is quite a bit less linear in Magic compared to YGO, getting to look at a hand on game 1 to see what the opponent considered a keepable hand can let you ascertain a great deal about what you need to interact with and what you ought to look out for. It allows you to play around open mana much better, because if you saw no interaction in their hand when you seized them for example, you can much better calculate your odds and play accordingly based on that information. Hell, just getting to seize turn 1 against a new matchup can even give you something as small, but valuable as knowing what colours you're up against right off the bat, because knowing whether a Polluted Delta is gonna fetch for a clutch Island to Spell Pierce with or a Swamp to Fatal Push with is invaluable knowledge immediately.
@@IC-23 While other more midrange versions Reanimator are currently dominating Legacy, for the longest time they were set up as "discard your interaction and beat you on turn 1-2" decks. Which meant the most powerful thing wasn't the hand knowledge, but beating a hand that you wouldn't have before. Yes, you "know" the coast is clear, but much of the power there was actually clearing that interaction rather than just knowing about it. To that end, free discard effects that force you to exile another card from your hand (like Grief and Unmask) were played, because just that 1 mana on Thoughtseize is a real cost that might end up giving your opponent an extra draw step. Only by existing in a system where (almost) all the cards in your hand are already free could you undersell how powerful picking the card of your choice and ripping it out of your opponent's hand for zero cost is. Magic players will 2-for-1 themselves for the privilege, and Yugioh players would too, even if WotC and Konami somehow figured out a way to delete the memory of their hand after the fact.
Interesting in both ways. Mill can be made on both players/decks. Either - for enemy or + for Themselves. I think in yugioh is Runic for Enemy and Burning abyss for themselves. In LOR there is also terrify for enemy(POC exclusive) and Toss which is the self milling option. Thats at least the only CGs I know more about. But I started Pokemon because of you. @SodaTCG If it come maybe you could tackle both options or make them separate in a two parter.
MTG probably has the most staple mill strategies. I know MTG Arena recently had a very popular mill deck, so mill is doing well and good. In Hearthstone, mill has pretty much always been bad and intentionally so. The developers don't like mill because it feels bad to play against, so while they have intrduced a handful of mill-synergistic cards they haven't made any powerful cards that force-mill your opponent I don't know YGO that well, but what I know there have been some steong mill decks in history but overall it's pretty rare. It is possible to build a mill deck but they aren't meta by any means
@@exantiuse497 Afaik. For Mill. It's usually either a dedicated combo deck like Empty Jar. Which wants to abuse flip effects like Morphing Jar. Or a control engine such as Runik + something else. Where the Runik half gives recyclable spells, mill effects, and other utility stuff. But a dedicated Runik Deck is usually a full on control/stun mill deck. Where opponents can't do anything with the Stun half of the deck when you just mill them with the Runik half.
I’d definitely be interested in a video on this topic - I think it’s interesting how each game still kept the idea of mill - I especially like how Hearthstone changed it up, because they have a much more limited deck
@@exantiuse497 I haven't played in quite a long time, but if I recall correctly hearthstone did have a couple of good mill decks in the past. I don't really remember most card names but stalling warrior had a couple. I remember these being controlling decks that milled other controlling decks. As well as, using armor/hand disruption to survive combo decks. There are a couple cards I remember being important (very vaguely), like "Dead Man's Hand" or "that one legendary that made you discover other legendary cards and add them to the deck" (maybe it discounted them idk). One I played personally was "Coldlight Oracle" Rouge. When I played the deck it was one of the best, if not the best anti-combo decks in wild (when I played combo decks were very, very strong in wild). It was bad against faster decks but not bad enough that it invalidated the deck completely. The general strategy was to used cards like "Shadow Step" to bounce Coldlight Oracle back to hand for cheap. Also using "Lab Recruiter" to add 3 copies of Coldlight into the deck. There have been a bunch of combo decks that used milling to kill in one turn. I know "Naturalize" druid was one of the better combo decks in wild. Also there was a priest otk deck that was know for being really hard to play that also killed with card draw, I think. I know Warlock's whole thing for a set was a bunch of cards that milled but those were more for disruption, again I think lol.
Interestingly, in Pokémon, abilities that tutor are much more powerful than attacks that tutor because of how common hand disruption is. Arceus VStar has an ability that lets you search your deck for up to 2 cards and put them into your hand. This is obviously amazing. However, Whimsicott GX has an attack that lets you search your deck for up to 5 cards and put them into your hand, and it is terrible. This is because once you attack, ending your turn, your opponent can simply play a hand disruption card, making you shuffle away all the cards you just got.
Another important thing about the Pikemon TCG is that there is no maximum hand size so you can easily have like 15 cards in hand and there are strategies centered around that, so cards like Hand Trimmer (your opponent discard until they have 5 cards) do see some play as a result.
The only reason Aqua Dolphin saw any play as a "hand rip" card was because a monster called Neo Space Connector came out that, when summoned, brings out any Neo-Spacian for free, and Aqua Dolphin was the only Warrior-type among them, so its typing made Neo Space Connector, a Warrior monster, a one-card way to access one of the best and now banned Link Monsters of its time, Isolde, Two Tales of the Noble Knights, which would then add any Warrior monster from your Deck to your hand for use on a future turn, and you could mill a bunch of Equip Spells from your deck to summon another free one whose Level equals the number of Equips milled. The completely incidental side effect of this was that Aqua Dolphin's absurdly conditional effect from 2006 got better with time as most forms of interruption played in the Main Deck are through very low-ATK monsters, most of which straight-up have 0 ATK, making it so you could rip an interruption out of your opponent's hand before your combo fully starts with little-to-no cost, or even with a benefit with the fact that you have to discard.
While it wasn't as abused as it was in infernoble, kashtira sometimes ran aqua dolphin as a tech choice over pathfinder, since it could reveal a nibiru in your opponent's hand, though usually it ended up in the sideboard. Similarly, speedroid also ran aqua dolphin as a hand disruption that could be half of a rank 3, since their best starter also doesn't require a normal summon.
there are plenty of other normal summons that can make a link-2, there's even link-2s without the normal summon, without the card information it provides neo-space connector would be nothing
I find it odd that we mention Aqua Dolphin but not Triple Tactical Talents, a card that only hand rips your opponent after you get handtrapped and that still sees consistent side deck and main deck play just because the hand knowledge and the ability to cut out your opponent from disrupting your extenders is extremely valuable in modern yugioh.
@@Bob12649Not true at all, all 3 effects are very good and see use consistently. The only time you would use the draw 2 effect after getting handtrapped over the hand rip effect, is if you desperately needed extension to put up a threatening board, otherwise the rip and hand knowledge are much much better.
discard is one of the few things in magic that hasn't actually power crept particularly, they've never printed anything as devastating as hymn to tourach was
I think a big part of why Yu-Gi-Oh hand rips are so broken is because a lot of them give you hand knowledge , it lets you plan your disruption specifically against cards that would break your board or starters. Take one of those away and stop the other, it's basically over.
@@haxalicious Hand knowledge is broken in any sufficiently fast card game. It is extremely good in legacy and vintage mtg, less relevant in slower formats.
@@haxaliciousnah i would argue most players vomit their entire hands regardless its stronger in yugioh because unlike mtg cards dont have a cost in mtg if you discard something they couldn’t player it anyways if you do it earlier game and pokemon has insane draw 7 cards to refill your hands
in the early to mid 2000s i used to play a TCG based on A Game of Thrones called "A game of Thrones: TCG" (which actually came out almost 10 years before the TV show) which has had disruption as a core mechanic. Oneof 3 ways you would choose to battle your opponent directly removed cards from your opponents hand.
There's so many Yugioh handrip examples you didn't get too as well, that are generic and even legal (or were at some point) that show just how insane it is as a mechanic or even a whole strategy. You've got: Darkworld Sillva double handrip Hieratic Gishki from back in the day that would handloop your opponent The new Grepha Fusion in Dark World with its replacement effect hand rip Stellarknight Triverr was hated because it would reset the field and handrip your opponent for 1 When Star Seraphs were played they played Evilswarm Ouroboros to handrip your opponent There's the Rank 9 XYZ in Enterblathnir that handrips your opponent with a banish Gumblar turbo as a deck from years ago Generaider handrips Dark Law's handrip with a Macro Cosmos on legs Cards like Triple Tactics Talent which is an insane utility card Arguably you could include cards like Dark Matter Dragon and Lithosagym in this context too since they rip cards out of an otherwise uninteractible "extra hand" so to speak.
It might be worth noting, that with "Soft Hand Attack" In YGO it can be extremely hit or miss and very match-up dependant. Sometimes making your opp discard a random card is amazing. othertimes, you just gave them access to a combo piece or play starter.
Remember a story from r/masterduel. A Unchained player bricked, then their Labyrinth opponent pop a card in their hand and hit Sharvara kick out an entire Unchained combo and opponent scoop out of shame.
I just discovered this channel yesterday, and there's already a new video, and about a mechanic that I'm using! (The Ju 87 in Kards which discards a random card in the opponent's hand when it attacks the enemy face)
There are various other hand attack effects in Kards, both random and targeted. Also, there are cards that can make hand attacks backfire: when they are discarded, they instead put themselves in play or give the owner other useful effects.
In LoR hand attack was pretty much useless throughout of it's existence. The general explanation for it is that hands shuffle pretty fast and you can include up to 3 copies of a card in your deck, like, you've lost an important card? Don't worry, you have 2 more copies. Here are some examples of hand attacking cards. Early bird - 2 mana slow from Bandle city - oppponent discards their highest cost card. Despite it being added alongside with Elder Dragon it never seen a maindeck play, which just shows how bad a hand attack is in this game. Prank - 1 mana focus token spells that show you 2 cards from enemy hand and allow you to "prank" them (give +2 cost, -1 power and vulnerable, etc). Pranks are never used as a win strategy, but are a cheap generatable spells in regions that love it. Skip, king of the riff - 2 mana 1|2 elusive from Bandle city - play: look at 2 random cards from the enemy hand and capture one of them. When everyone first saw Skip they thought it would be a superstrong card. Back in the day Teemo-Zoe was a popular deck, that was winning games with lots of cheap elusive units opponent could hardly interact with. Skip had a fair statline and his hand attack could be really usefull, allowing him to steal cards opponent could interact with elusives. However, rotation happened and the deck in general was nerfed, so, despite being the closest to making hand attack work in LoR, Skip haven't seen much play.
I feel like hand disruption was always present in small ways in lor. The biggest contender is aloof travelers (both players draw and the opponent discards the highest cost card). For example it is lowkey a winning strategy atm with mordekaiser to trigger the effect multiple times a round, which is just a general disruption. Also Skip joined the foes in pretty much any elusive deck since his release and sometimes in papercraft dragon decks aiming to otk. I d say hunt the weak and tricksy tentacles were the worst interaction cards, bc discarding cheap cards is just not that important. Add somewhere here the SI card that shuffles into the enemy deck. Closely followed by early bird which really was only maindecked to discard mordekaiser and destroy their strongest engine card and sometimes against Elder Drag. Pranks were very good when shellfolk had a better statline, but without it their value is much lower. In other cases it was just included in seraphine decks as a 1 off, which just shows the medicore value. I would like to know if other cardgames have smth similiar to curses? Aka you force the opponent once to play 2 mana to be able to play spells again. This can stack btw and was toxic in a meta
@@boxtopus3689 Kinda disagree. It would be silly to deny that Aloof is played, but it mostly because Mordekaiser is one of the most powerfull cards in LoR history and not because Aloof is irreplacable. You basically can pair Mordekaiser with any concept and get a playable deck, yet I admit that Aloof mill existed before Mordekaiser, despite never been competitive. Same goes with pranks. You don't put prank cards in your deck because you aim to win by pranking your opponent, you put them because of Nami/admiral shelly/shellfolk. It's not hand attack specifically is good but rather something that synergises with cheap spell is good, or shellfolk giving you a tonn of value.
One interesting aspect of this topic related to Yugioh is that hand attack effects in general in the Rush Duel format are notoriously bad because of how the card draw system in that game works. Players draw up to a full hand of five cards at the beginning of each of their turns, so by "forcing" an opponent to discard a card you are often actually benefiting them by allowing them to dump cards in their hand they don't want while getting an extra draw for a card they potentially do. Spells and Traps which maintain an advantageous board state by stopping an opponent's attack or removing a key boss monster are much more disruptive forms of interaction in Rush so generally gimmicky hand attack cards don't see much play.
Nubatama: a hand attack strategy so strong that the designers didn't even give you enough cards for a full deck until the Break Ride era, and even then the effects were changed to "temporary exile with a chance at maybe discarding one or two of those cards."
Fwiw in Yugioh a major part of what makes hand attack strong besides the generally high tempo of the game is that most meaningful handrips let you look at the opponent's hand and pick, thus granting perfect hand knowledge that you can immediately act on by playing around any interruptions they have/ the absence thereof. With Appointer and Dustshoot they're so strong despite only being reliable on turn 1 because you fire them off at the start of the opponent's turn after their draw for turn and they look at their entire hand, so you start their turn knowing everything they have allowing you to manage your own interruptions better and avoid getting baited. Of the handrips that don't look at the hand, they can be very hit or miss depending on what they hit & what you're left with; losing the one starter in hand is a devastating hit but if you opened two of it then suddenly it hardly matters. In addition to that a lot of decks in Yugioh use the grave pretty heavily, so handrips that force discards have an almost 50:50 chance to actually give your opponent a boost letting them set up turn 0; Handrips that shuffle back into deck are typically safer but also have the hazard of accidentally shuffling back "garnets" your opponent drew that they'd rather remain in the deck for an interaction with another card. Afaik modern day CCV actually has a negligible play rate because it got it's effect changed, where it's original version was definitely broken the modern one no longer lingers and gives your opponent damage protection for the turn and the choice to pop up to 3 monsters in their deck, which if awful because if they don't want to pop their own in deck monsters they don't have to, and if they do you're letting them search & mill up to 3 monsters. It does have successors in other Virus traps that are functionally similar though, Eradicator Epidemic Virus being the major one these days whose differences are that it requires a high ATK sacrifice instead of a low ATK one, and it destroys your choice of either Spells or Traps instead of mid to high ATK monsters.
The funny thing about Illucia is that it wasn’t even nerfed because of the hand disruption aspect, it was nerfed because it was just Time Warp in Aggro priest
I only know about mtg and hearthstone, but I think an important difference is that in MTG you can run 4 copies of all of your cards and sometimes get them back from the graveyard, whereas in hearthstone you may have 1 copy of an essential card in your deck that you can never get back if your opponent plays hand disruption.
I think that's why discard and hand disruption is so rare in hearthstone, the developers are very keyed into the feel of the game and don't want the play pattern to skew in a way that feels bad for one player
Then in Cardfight it was so strong in set 1 they didn’t print the deck that did it for 12 more main sets, and even then only made it temporary after it came back
In Star Wars Destiny hand attacks are basic abilities of dice (most cards) most of the disvard one or two cards, you can also resolve multiple card attack dice all at once stopping your oponent from palying the entire round
The most important part of hand disruption is the knowledge of the players hand. This allows you to perfectly play around what should otherwise be hidden knowledge.
Final Fantasy TCG has three of its eight colors/elements employ hand attack, Wind, Ice and Darkness: - Wind has very few but very prominent Cards, most being some iteration of Zidane, that give various flavors of dicard on an evasive body. Some are just plain discard 1, some are targeted discard 1 but draw one, but the targeted version has high prevalence. Despite or rather because of that, he has been a staple in the color to curate your opponents hand content and pull their removal or pressure pieces to go with Winds Tempo or Ramp Gameplans. -Ice is a color built around ressource denial, be it by tapping down and freezing (preventing untap) your opponents cards or attacking their hand size since cards in hand are also a source of Mana. Ice has barely any targeted discard and only recently got random discard to put opponents under more pressure of losing key pieces, but has a much higher density of discard effects and cards that punish opponents for being too low on hand cards. Or in some cases even for keeping to many and not playing their hand out. This, when currently strong, makes it a very oppressive lockdown color across the whole aggro, midrage and control spectrum, depending on the current meta and colors ices gets paired with. On the other hand, draw and tutoring are very prevalent across all colors in FF (by now) so for discard to really do anything it has to combat quite some opposing recovery options, though there was a time in early sets, where a turn 1 double discard opener could lock people out of winning the game. -Darkness, like light, is not a proper element but a generic options able to be slotted into most decks in low amounts. Where light cards tend to be about buffing your stuff and drawing you cards, dark cards tend to mess with your opponent, though both colors are generic grab bags of effects as they are mutually exclusive and mostly exist for flavor and generic options. Thus, while more dark cards with discard exist than even in wind, they don't really do it as a full on gameplan and most often only do single card, untargeted discard an thus are very easy to recover from.
As a hearthstone player this video kind of made me think about the presence of other forms of disruption effects in other games and how good they would be. Things such as dirty rat, gnomeferatu, unseen sabotuer or disruptive spellbreaker which straight up remove a resource from your opponent but also certain other cards meant to disrupt their turn such as lotheb, rebuke or cold feet. Hey maybe that could be an idea for a future video. Great content by the way it's always interesting for me to learn things outside the scope of my usual games
@The360MlgNoscoper who in their right mind rats on two. Absolute madlads. But yeah too true I have won my fair share of games off a bad turn two rat from my opponent
Gwent as always differs greatly from other card games. Because there is no card draw hand attack can not exist in the game, or if it does exist, it should be weak on purpose. There are only a couple hand attack mechanics in game. 1. Kambi is a 4 power 10 provision Skellige card that says "deploy: discard your rightmost card, then opponent discards their rightmost card". The card is horrific for 10 provision, and, despite Skellige has powerfull discard synergies, it was far from playability. First and foremost, you needed to have a card you want to discard as a rightmost card in you hand, secondly, you can't guarantee that your opponent has an important card as their rightmost card. The only way Kambi has seen play was win secure. You are slightly ahead - you play Kambi to remove your opponent's last card - you win the game. The most important is that Kambi could be generated through Magic Compass, and Magic Compass was a super playable card, so one should have always been aware of loosing to a Kambi. 2. One of Nilfgaards leader abilities allows you to manifest (pick 1 of 3 options) a card from your opponent's hand. This is the strongest form of hand attack in gwent, because it gives you a knowledge of your opponent's hand, which, in my experience, is the most important in gwent among all other card games. +it could be combined with rune mage, who allows to choose from 5 options. However, Nilfgaard is the single strongest region in the game, so it had much better things to do.
Also in Yu-Gi-Oh there are decks (like the Dark World deck) that can rip all the cards of the opponents' hand on turn one. And then you have maybe the one card that you draw for turn and you have to play through their board, or else you are dead next turn.
hi!! A couple of videos ago i commented saying that one of your videos helped magic click for me when I'd previously been a pretty bad player. Well, update, turns out I was right! I've been consistently winning more, or bringing games to closer losses than before! And I've become much more confident with a bigger variety of colour combinations :) thanks for the help!
@@sasir2013 It's hard to qualify exactly. The pacing of fights and the value of different responses, kinda? Like his 'how good is x thing in y game' videos helped me figure out how to even weigh the effectiveness of a strategy in the first place. I had so little context for what I should be doing that it was easy to bogged down in questions. In a game with a deck of 100 cards, when do I decide if redirecting a spell, discarding a hand or summoning a creature is worth the cost? I was making the wrong call a lot. The different colours in magic were throwing me off too. I was AWFUL at burn decks because I kept waffling and going 'I shouldn't attack this turn, I'll draw too much attention to myself' in commander games when I had way more affordance to be aggressive than I knew I did. The caution served me better playing blue and white, but when faced with the power-at-a-cost of black or the more brazen strategies of green and red I completely floundered.
The fairest YGO hand loop card is lovely labrynth, and that’s a boss monster of a slow control deck that only does it randomly, you have to jump through hoops to do it, and people STILL complain about it being too strong. It’s insane how good hand destruction is in ygo
Another great disruption card in Pokémon was a persian that let you chose cards to discard from opponent's hand until 4 cards remain, core card for a variety of control decks
Kind of disappointed Lovely Labrynth wasn't mentioned at all in the Yugioh section, because that's a really fair instance of hand attack in my experience. It helps that Lovely isn't the easiest card in the world to both get out and proc, Big Welcome notwithstanding, and she's very importantly just small enough for most big bosses to run over before it can become an issue.
The absence of a resource system like mana in Yu-Gi-Oh makes the hand attack problem even worse for both players. The person who uses the hand attacks generally do so with essentially no lost opportunity cost and can just proceed to do other plays after removing a point of interaction from the opponent's hand (because the commonly played hand attacks let you choose which cards to remove). The person who receives the hand attacks lose a card that they would've used on the current turn or the turn immediately after since they cost no resources, and generally don't get it back in time due to the fast pace of the game. This problem has gotten so severe at one point that there were combo decks whose goal was to use so many hand attacks in one turn that the opponent would start the duel with 0-1 cards in hand (the standard is 6 btw), and they would accomplish this almost every match due to the nature of the game (unban Gumblar though he's cool).
A few of these cards are both hand attack and hand knowledge. Hand knowledge is just straight up Op as you know everything your opponent can play and can just play around everything in their hand.
The real question... how good is hand attack for the quality of TCGs? The answer: It's terrible, anything that isn't N / Iono can just burn out of existence.
Everyone keeps saying that hand rip is strong in YGO because of hand knowledge, and this is true. But I think it's also really important to remember that the difference between random discard in YGO and targeted discard also allows you to hit the best starter, and that's what's truly crazy. Appointer is occasionally a literal turn skip because decks are often incentivized to open 1 good starter and then lots of support, Appointer says "Yeah you don't get to play this turn actually" even though it hits just 1 card. It's a bit similar to turn 1 Thoughtseize in MtG ruining your development, if that development was exactly one turn and then op could kill you instantly after.
Shadowfist is played with 3-4 players and you fill your hand to 6 every turn. Hard to imagine a worse environment for hand disruption. The only time you really see it is in "Paper Trail" decks, which is an enchantment that generates a mana whenever a player discards. Because players often discard from their own hand in order to draw more cards, playing against Paper Trail feels like cedh with Rhystic/Mystic in play.
The one problem with your point on YGO Hand Attacks is that there's an entire deck called "Lair of Darkness" built around the Crush Card Virus trap cards. My buddy has a deck built around them and it's a horrible blast lol
Lorcana discard is similar in strength to how it is in magic, there is a ton of discard options and one of the colors has huge payoff for making your opponents discard
Because the power level of singular cards is so strong in yugioh, and they dont have a mana cost that gates them from being able to be played all in 1 turn, looking at your opponents hand and removing even just 1 card can win you the game
Heya theres one more kind of hand attack in mtg that is much more niche and it is forcing your opponent to discard random cards. The two examples that come to mind are burning inquiry and hymn to torach. These are often some of the least fun cards to play against because depending on the cards discarded you sometimes just lose and they were meta for a long time and still have niche decks in modern and legacy respectively
In HS hand attack is only good against specific decks. If im playing aggro and you spend 4 mana to get rid of my max 3 mana card then you might as well press ff right then and there
yugioh is funny about this cuz like. i mean i like TTT or psyframe omega or even like appointer / old mind crush but you cant trust anyone with these effects because then they go crazy and start handlooping the entire hand (war flashbacks to gumblar format and wind ups)
They banned Mind Crush from TCG, not because it was super overpowered as an often 1-for-1 targeted removal on a normal trap (usually responding to a searcher) but because the rules around game knowledge were changed where it was practically unenforceable
I think it would be wise to explore other TCGs when bringing up examples, since there are more TCGs than just those 4 and extrapolating them to be all there is can feel reductive to the other games. The current popular bandai TCGs (One Piece and Digimon) are a good place to start. Great video though!
Yeah I would like to try some other ones for videos but sorta been busy this month. Maybe when I get some more free time I'll look into trying some others for videos (flesh and blood, lorcana, one piece there are alot I wanna try lol)
I recommend checking out Sorcery if you like weird card interactions. There's a lot of completely wild stuff you can do there that would never fly in other card games and it's really fun (but not suited for balanced competitive play). From the few times I've played, I've seen cards that let you steal your opponent's cards and put them in your hand, cards that summon minions that then draw *their own* hand that only they can play, cards that let you warp the playing field by inserting themselves between other cards, pushing them aside. There's a card that lets you loop the playing field so that instead of operating on a map with edges, you can exit the westernmost square to appear at the easternmost square like it's an old JRPG map. The whole time during this video I was just thinking back at how a guy I played with stole my spell card and then used it to destroy me. It's not just hand attack; It's hand terrorism. Though I guess Sorcery is so different from other TCGs, it's not really a great comparison candidate.
In Pokémon your opponent's Iono will cripple you, but your Iono will get your opponent exactly what they need, idk why it's just the way it is Nah but fr when I play and I'm ahead by a couple prizes then I usually have to account for a surprise Iono because buying even one turn is very strong in Pokémon
Wouldn't Wheel of Fortune or Windfall (in agressive decks) also function as simultaneous hand attack and consistency tools by the definition offered in this video?
Yes but due to mana costs the cards drawn off of wheel effects don't add to play right away the way they do in Pokémon. This makes them much weaker outside of combo strategies in magic where using those 7 cards is the point of the strategy. Might do a video on wheel effects later.
I would love to know whats your opinion on Master Duel, since you made a video about not playing marvel snaps because of the p2w and LoR because of the hard to understand what to do while master duel is super f2p but imo its harder to understand what to do more than LoR, but do you enjoy playing it (if you play it) ? if so why ?
Yeah I don't play master duel but I have previous knowledge from playing paper yu-gi-oh so my understanding is better. I think that master duel is good if you already play yu-gi-oh and horrible if you treat it as free to play/for new players. Pokémon TCG live does it way better imo.
As others have said, hand attack *with card knowledge* is broken in yugioh. There are still very good cards like eradicator epidemic virus that have been on the banned and limited list but aren’t nearly as game breaking as trap dust shoot, etc
Now isnt mind rot good because it allows you to target yourself? It would be good in graveyard decks where you wanna actively put creatures in the graveyard which you would then play from the graveyard. In case you drew a creature instead of self milling
I saw your video on drawing two cards, I thought that’s nice, I’ll save it for later. But this one on hand attack?!? My three favorite words are turn one thoughtsieze. The scam deck? Well it’s a scam I can only play 4 grief per deck. Mind rot? Card’s rotting in my hand cause I haven’t cast it yet.
Is it just me or is every one of these: In magic it's pretty much balanced, because of how mana costs have to work, except a couple random early cards In yugioh it's overpowered, because yugioh cards don't have costs, and there really aren't modern cards that just do this generically, because of how archetypes work in yugioh Pokemon is weird
Again with the outdated Yu-Gi-Oh examples. Literally all of them but Crush Card Virus and the monsters, the latter of which see no play by the way (made me giggle hearing him actually make that claim in 2024 for aqua dolphin or Wind-Up Hunter), are currently banned and have been for a long time now (some since 2005, almost 20 years) due to the fact the designers know that the unrestricted hand attack they offered was an issue. An actual example of a commonly used hand attack card in the modern game would be Triple Tactics Talent, a generic spell card that relies on your opponent activating a monster effect to even be used, allowing you to either: take control of an opponent's monster for the turn, look at the opponent's hand and shuffle a card into their deck, or draw two cards. But this too is susceptible to the negation that is all too common nowadays. In fact, outside of the previous example, "Hand Attack" in modern Yu-Gi-Oh is quite a rare thing. Not that it is something that wouldn't be powerful, just that Konami (the company that makes Yu-Gi-Oh) have done a decent job at killing off the cards that allowed that to be easily accomplished. So the entire point he makes in the Yu-Gi-Oh section of this video is moot since while the points he states are true, someone playing the game today is not likely going to face any significant hand attack. I feel like there was potential to examine how Yu-Gi-Oh dealt with the issue of Hand Attack as this was at one point a big problem in the game. Sadly that just never got addressed and instead SodaTCG decided to instead present it as if it is still a significant issue in the game, when it really has not been for a long time now. And if you are curious, the reason Aqua Dolphin is not played (and has not been really played, even in the specific deck it was made for, Heroes) is because it's just too slow and effect/summon negations or monster removal are a dime-a-dozen and can be found in nearly every deck released since 2013. Just not worth sacrificing a core card in any competent deck for a singleton hand rip, especially when other more flexible cards are around that can do the same thing or different, more useful effect. Wind-up hunter is more so a victim of the latter + power creeping as the decks it was apart of are now way to slow in the modern game (it's extremely easy for competent decks to stop it before it gets into a position to begin attacking your hand).
I feel that you sorta answered your own question here. Yu-gi-oh removing these effects or making them too weak to see play is more side stepping the issue rather than making cards that can play with it in interesting ways. This is part of why I like the design of TTT or pot retrains so much ( desires is a favorite of mine). Just wish we could see the effect in a way that was more balanced so that rather than me not having many good examples of hand attack for the video I could talk about its level of impact on the game like I did with pokemon or magic.
@@SodaTCG I wasn't trying to ask a question with this comment, I'm just fact checking that section of the video as without any understanding of the game people will take what you posted at face value when it simply is not an accurate representation of this mechanic in modern Yu-Gi-Oh. Unlike the other games you covered, that entire section of the video is pretty irrelevant to the modern player since next to none of the cards you discuss will ever be encountered in normal play today (let alone competitive play). In fact, that could have been the focus of that section of the video or it could have been very simply caveated with the statement that due to the sheer power of the mechanic, Konami chose to cull this from the game early on in its history. In which case you could've used the examples you gave as examples of why this was done and even discussed how their potential legality today could warp the meta around them. Yet you chose to instead present those banned/rarely used cards as if they are a modern concern, which comes off as spreading misinformation and detracts from what was otherwise quite a useful and accurate video. That being the case hopefully for future topics you can avoid this type of pitfall as I would like to see more content of this type in the future, there is definitely a lot to be discussed.
Yeah for new players I could be confusing but my videos are more about the effects over time rather than in the current standard metagame, it's just that yu-gi-oh lacks effects to use as such an example for standard in this case. I plan to create interest and overlap for players of not only these card games but others looking into them as well. If a new player would see my videos and expect the things I said would apply to their standard metagame it would be untrue for all the games I talked about not just yu-gi-oh. I even forgot to mention that grief was banned in modern which would confuse players in mtg for sure.
@@SodaTCG If the intention for this video was to "show the effects over time" of this mechanic (hand attack) in each TCG, then you did not at all communicate that. The video is presented as if you are communicating what this mechanic currently looks like in each game. And that in itself causes problems when you present such fundamentally flawed information (as I have pointed out in my past replies for the Yu-Gi-Oh section, you present a situation that simply has not been true for Yu-Gi-Oh in many years). I also disagree regarding the lack of effects to discuss regarding hand attack. As I said in my last reply, you could have used all the examples you already used, and more if you simply pointed out that this was a historical problem that was eventually cracked down on due to the issues it caused (and you could go even further into that if you wished, especially with the modern hand attack cards that have actually seen play within the last decade lol). And if you simply don't have recent knowledge of Yu-Gi-Oh, there are plenty of creators in the space who you could consult with who would be happy to share their insight. Hell, you could probably do that for all the different TCGs, reach out to well known influencers in the space to see if they want to chime in on this topic in your video. Get that sweet sweet crossover exposure into all the different communities. But as I said in my last reply, I hope you are able to learn from this and avoid such errors in future content since this is quite enjoyable and useful content when done right!
@@SodaTCGThen why is the title in present tense? It should be "was" or "has been" By saying "is" you're claiming this is how it looks now. Is a reason why I'm not enjoying your videos as much as I could, everytime I go to the comments I find that the information is, for the most part, outdated. And therefore, mostly useless.
Handrip in Yugioh is one of the most unfun things you can experience. It's basicly never fair, even when "legal" cards do it like Triple Tactics Talents or Chaos Dragon Levianeer. Some really unfair cards are not banned simply because the decktypes they're included in are not that good (Dark Law, Im looking at you) which can lead to a lot of non games where you lose basicly on turn 1. Cards like Psyframelord Omega are generic and can basjcly enable a handrip in any deck that has tuner access. Sadly in Yugioh cards rarely get banned unless it sees major play in big tournaments, even though it would be much healthier if certain cards would just generally be banned if they lead to unfair gamestates.
Targeted hand attack in magic isnt format defining, those cards are staples for sure but is not so much on what they do as much as the rate or support. Grief is format defining because it can be cast for free from hand, thoughtseize is crazy rate, cabal is awesome because of rate, recursion and how it interacts with the stack (you name the card after it resolves, so you have to counter it before you know the target or let it go through), and bat sees play in one type of deck in a pretty evenly spead format dominated by 5-6 decks (good card but far from meta defining). I think "metadefining" a weird thing to say here, just like "countering spell effects" are format defining, or ramp, or burn. The effect is awesome when printed on a strong card of course, just like any effect. But yes, they are really strong effects, have to be seen as targeted removal.
One thing that's really well designed about hand attacks in pokemon is that all of them are on supporters, which means you can't play them turn 1 going first and can't chain them together. (cough cough, yugioh should take notes lol)
Hand broken on yugioh is not only about hand knowledge like the below ppl claim. The most important aspect is still reducing or taking the important card to stop their combo. Because 1 card in yugioh can turn into a searh engine and start from 0 board into fullboard. It is that broken. Not only you need cards to stop their combo, you also need cards to deal with established board. So yes and card that minus, and disrupt opp hand= devastating. Hand knowledge is good but not the end, Even if you know they have Max C. Not much you can do about it unless stop the combo, but stop the combo meaning you gonna lose next turn anyway. So hand knowledge is totally useless
The second YuGiOh read is quite wrong. Truly the going first is strong, but a lot of the cards listed are unbanned and not played at all at high level (and maybe i'm on personal experience, I haven't seen them neither in casual or lower competitive stuff). Soft hand removal is costly, and things focused on it are bad. Problem is how infamous has it been through dumb combos like droll lock or yata lock, which historically ruined the game. I'm the only player i've seen in a while attempting to craft a deck of hand destruction, but it's quite a gamble nowdays with the amount of GY tools you get. MTG has too much hand usually to even mind random card discards, the draw power of a card game based on cost which are alse cards themselves is an obvious target for developing a flow of drawing that needs to be more consistent, so losing hands at random is less trouble even on turn one. On YuGiOh you lose quite a lot more options by just discarding 1 card, and yet the lack of costs can make the effect hard backfire on you through almost a higher number of cards that are useful to discard for free than cards that can actually discard cards, both to youself or your rival. I feel this comment was worded like shit and didn't accomplish anything, but whatever.
Ah my first proper MTG deck. Mono black discard. Where its running 8 rack effects. And aa many handrip effects and the classic Hypbotic Spectre and a couple of Grey merchants to finish off opponents with lifedrain.
Discussing black discard strategies in MTG, and no mention of Mind Twist, Hypnotic Spectre, Abyssal Spectre, Ravenous Rats, Megrim, or the mighty Hymn to Tourach? Wow, you're really trying to make me feel old, aren't you? Lol.
Please add Flesh and Blood to these analysis videos. Itself so unique compared to the other games shown, and is a lot of fun to compare to other games.
My middle school teacher (god rest her soul) used to hand attack me with a ruler if I didn't write proper cursive. I carry on her legacy by playing these cards.
Classic coperal punishment
I'm 😂
Umm that's a ruler attack
You missed the single biggest reason hand disruption is so powerful in Yugioh, and that is simply that it provides complete hand knowledge. This is uniquely important to the game for three reasons:
1. Yugioh is the closest to being a "sandbox mode" card game in that decks have a ton of flexibility to build whatever board they like within a certain range during their turn, and knowing what cards your opponent is currently holding gives you vastly increased efficacy in tailor-crafting a board of disruptions that specifically counters the exact tools at your opponent's disposal.
2. Yugioh also places a ton of its counterplay in handtraps, which are like Force of Wills from MtG except they only trigger under certain conditions. Knowing which handtraps your opponent has available means you can perfectly play around their specific triggers and sequence your cards in the optimal fashion for your opponent's handtraps to get little to no mileage.
3. Easily the most important reason, _Yugioh games only last 1-2 turn cycles on average._ This means your opponent's hand barely has time to cycle at all before the game is over. Typically, the outcome of the game is more or less decided after the first turn of each player. Everything after that is, more often than not, prolonging the inevitable. What this means is that if you can get a complete snapshot of your opponent's hand during that first turn specifically - it has a MASSIVELY magnified impact on the outcome of the game compared to games like Magic or Hearthstone that are expected to go on for 7, 10, 15 turns quite regularly. In MtG, getting a snapshot of your opponent's hand on turn 1 isn't that gamebreaking because by turn 4 half or more of that information will be out of date, and by turn 6 you're pretty much completely in the dark about what your opponent is holding. That hand information only influenced the opening stage of the game, but wasn't determinative of the outcome on its own. In Yugioh, getting a single snapshot of your opponent's hand is determinative of the ENTIRE game, because the first and second turns are the beginning, middle, _and_ end of a typical game of Yugioh. Your information only goes 20% out of date by the time the game ends instead of, say, 300% out of date at the end of a typical round of Magic or Hearthstone.
Just compare hands at start of the game 3 times. Game over.
Great comment. This was definetly missed in the video.
@@bugcatchertimothy7380 People say this but it is just completely untrue, some decks (Primarily Tenpai because it is a blind second try to open 4 boardbreakers/handtraps, and Snake Eye mirror matches) can be like this but sequencing and ability to actually play your deck correctly matter far more than what you open by such an insane degree compared to other cards games (You start with a guaranteed 15 other cards in "hand" through the extra deck), otherwise Top Players wouldnt consistently win worlds or regionals if it was just a game of comparing hands, most yugioh decks have much lower bars for error to perform optimally than even formats like Vintage or Legacy in Magic. There is a reason new players cannot even deal with extremely weak decks if they play meta decks, because Yugioh is a game almost entirely centered around someone's ability to play the game/their deck correctly and properly sequence around and predict interaction.
Tldr; Saying Yugioh is a game of comparing hands, is like saying pokemon is a game of whoever has the highest concentration V/VMax/VStars in their deck. Because both of those fundamentally at a glance are true if you ignore any nuance or player expression or circumstances within and outside of the game, but both are bad faith disingenous arguments.
Wrong. Knowledge means fuck all. This is some crap people larp as. Yugioh is all about little girls and I wouldn't be surprised if it was designed by Isis
The reason hand disruption is so much worse in Yugioh is everything, literally everything is about ramp, facilitating, and interaction to basically not run cards at all. The way the deck moved from zomes be it field, grave, banish, the extra monster deck, they even say this with the slang "engine" Yugioh isn't a card game, it's a series of scripts that run themselves and some scripts are more consistent than others, some scripts execute a better end board, some scripts counter other scripts pretty well, and I guarantee if it has a little girl on the card it'll do all three
^ Me after one person ash blossoms me
how much of a financial burden is each card game?
Pokemon is the cheapest, that's for sure.
MtG and YGO have lots of different formats, so prices vary. But they're generally much pricier than Pokemon.
@@vel0xraperio Yugioh does not have a single format and that is the bad thing about the game?
That’d be a great vid
@@gabrielmarcos6923 Yugioh doesn't *really* have multiple formats the way mtg does. There's current advanced which is what every one thinks of, traditional where all cards that are banned are instead at 1, and then "Time Wizard" which is every prior ban list and card pool. So technically yugioh now has as many formats as it does ban lists. Good luck with that beyond the few popular ones you'll find online because most people will just build for current advanced since that's the one most locals use. Good fun to be had in those old lists though, shame it's a massive pain to check the legality of each card
I don't know about Pokemon, but out of the other three, assuming we're talking about standard competitive play, I would say this is the order:
Hearthstone is the cheapest since you can obtain a large portion of each expansion by playing the game.
MTG is next, from what I've gathered the standard format doesn't have too many expensive cards (if we're talking about the other formats like Commander and Legacy, then MTG is the most expansive by far though). Rotations decrease the value of your collection but the other formats keep the powerful (and expensive) cards worth something
And Yugioh is the most expensive, not only are there frequently 100+ dollar cards in meta decks, but Konami bans cards instead of rotating which can make parts of your collection worthless overnight
One thing with yugioh's hand attack is hand knowledge, knowing what your opponent's hand looks like is game warping in yugioh.
After discarding/returning the best card your opponent have. You could play around cards like hand traps, you know how to disrupt your opponent at the right time since you know how many starters & extenders they have.
Conclusion, designers should not print more hand attack cards.
The very same applies to Magic as well, honestly. Once you've peeked at an opponent's hand, you know their curve and have valuable insight into their gameplan. Because deck construction is quite a bit less linear in Magic compared to YGO, getting to look at a hand on game 1 to see what the opponent considered a keepable hand can let you ascertain a great deal about what you need to interact with and what you ought to look out for. It allows you to play around open mana much better, because if you saw no interaction in their hand when you seized them for example, you can much better calculate your odds and play accordingly based on that information. Hell, just getting to seize turn 1 against a new matchup can even give you something as small, but valuable as knowing what colours you're up against right off the bat, because knowing whether a Polluted Delta is gonna fetch for a clutch Island to Spell Pierce with or a Swamp to Fatal Push with is invaluable knowledge immediately.
@AlluMan96 at least in magic you get 2-3 draw steps before the game gets ridiculous so it's not entirely perfect hand knowledge.
vs appointer T2
@@IC-23 While other more midrange versions Reanimator are currently dominating Legacy, for the longest time they were set up as "discard your interaction and beat you on turn 1-2" decks. Which meant the most powerful thing wasn't the hand knowledge, but beating a hand that you wouldn't have before. Yes, you "know" the coast is clear, but much of the power there was actually clearing that interaction rather than just knowing about it. To that end, free discard effects that force you to exile another card from your hand (like Grief and Unmask) were played, because just that 1 mana on Thoughtseize is a real cost that might end up giving your opponent an extra draw step. Only by existing in a system where (almost) all the cards in your hand are already free could you undersell how powerful picking the card of your choice and ripping it out of your opponent's hand for zero cost is. Magic players will 2-for-1 themselves for the privilege, and Yugioh players would too, even if WotC and Konami somehow figured out a way to delete the memory of their hand after the fact.
An idea for a future video: how good are mill decks in various CCGs?
Interesting in both ways. Mill can be made on both players/decks. Either - for enemy or + for Themselves. I think in yugioh is Runic for Enemy and Burning abyss for themselves. In LOR there is also terrify for enemy(POC exclusive) and Toss which is the self milling option. Thats at least the only CGs I know more about. But I started Pokemon because of you. @SodaTCG If it come maybe you could tackle both options or make them separate in a two parter.
MTG probably has the most staple mill strategies. I know MTG Arena recently had a very popular mill deck, so mill is doing well and good.
In Hearthstone, mill has pretty much always been bad and intentionally so. The developers don't like mill because it feels bad to play against, so while they have intrduced a handful of mill-synergistic cards they haven't made any powerful cards that force-mill your opponent
I don't know YGO that well, but what I know there have been some steong mill decks in history but overall it's pretty rare. It is possible to build a mill deck but they aren't meta by any means
@@exantiuse497
Afaik. For Mill. It's usually either a dedicated combo deck like Empty Jar. Which wants to abuse flip effects like Morphing Jar.
Or a control engine such as Runik + something else. Where the Runik half gives recyclable spells, mill effects, and other utility stuff.
But a dedicated Runik Deck is usually a full on control/stun mill deck. Where opponents can't do anything with the Stun half of the deck when you just mill them with the Runik half.
I’d definitely be interested in a video on this topic - I think it’s interesting how each game still kept the idea of mill - I especially like how Hearthstone changed it up, because they have a much more limited deck
@@exantiuse497 I haven't played in quite a long time, but if I recall correctly hearthstone did have a couple of good mill decks in the past. I don't really remember most card names but stalling warrior had a couple.
I remember these being controlling decks that milled other controlling decks. As well as, using armor/hand disruption to survive combo decks. There are a couple cards I remember being important (very vaguely), like "Dead Man's Hand" or "that one legendary that made you discover other legendary cards and add them to the deck" (maybe it discounted them idk).
One I played personally was "Coldlight Oracle" Rouge. When I played the deck it was one of the best, if not the best anti-combo decks in wild (when I played combo decks were very, very strong in wild). It was bad against faster decks but not bad enough that it invalidated the deck completely. The general strategy was to used cards like "Shadow Step" to bounce Coldlight Oracle back to hand for cheap. Also using "Lab Recruiter" to add 3 copies of Coldlight into the deck.
There have been a bunch of combo decks that used milling to kill in one turn. I know "Naturalize" druid was one of the better combo decks in wild. Also there was a priest otk deck that was know for being really hard to play that also killed with card draw, I think.
I know Warlock's whole thing for a set was a bunch of cards that milled but those were more for disruption, again I think lol.
I promise that Grief is not currently seeing play in modern due to being banned.
Interestingly, in Pokémon, abilities that tutor are much more powerful than attacks that tutor because of how common hand disruption is.
Arceus VStar has an ability that lets you search your deck for up to 2 cards and put them into your hand. This is obviously amazing. However, Whimsicott GX has an attack that lets you search your deck for up to 5 cards and put them into your hand, and it is terrible. This is because once you attack, ending your turn, your opponent can simply play a hand disruption card, making you shuffle away all the cards you just got.
With you saying that im guessing the pokemon turns are like draw, main, battle, end?
If so then what you said makes sense.
@@deathvai364 Yes, that's correct.
Another important thing about the Pikemon TCG is that there is no maximum hand size so you can easily have like 15 cards in hand and there are strategies centered around that, so cards like Hand Trimmer (your opponent discard until they have 5 cards) do see some play as a result.
The only reason Aqua Dolphin saw any play as a "hand rip" card was because a monster called Neo Space Connector came out that, when summoned, brings out any Neo-Spacian for free, and Aqua Dolphin was the only Warrior-type among them, so its typing made Neo Space Connector, a Warrior monster, a one-card way to access one of the best and now banned Link Monsters of its time, Isolde, Two Tales of the Noble Knights, which would then add any Warrior monster from your Deck to your hand for use on a future turn, and you could mill a bunch of Equip Spells from your deck to summon another free one whose Level equals the number of Equips milled. The completely incidental side effect of this was that Aqua Dolphin's absurdly conditional effect from 2006 got better with time as most forms of interruption played in the Main Deck are through very low-ATK monsters, most of which straight-up have 0 ATK, making it so you could rip an interruption out of your opponent's hand before your combo fully starts with little-to-no cost, or even with a benefit with the fact that you have to discard.
While it wasn't as abused as it was in infernoble, kashtira sometimes ran aqua dolphin as a tech choice over pathfinder, since it could reveal a nibiru in your opponent's hand, though usually it ended up in the sideboard.
Similarly, speedroid also ran aqua dolphin as a hand disruption that could be half of a rank 3, since their best starter also doesn't require a normal summon.
there are plenty of other normal summons that can make a link-2, there's even link-2s without the normal summon, without the card information it provides neo-space connector would be nothing
Oh dark warrior how I miss you
Iirc gouki actually ran dolphin a bit before connector came out, that effect is just that strongm
@@Void-rj3sq you completely missed the fact that it was used to summon isolde, which requires warrior monsters.
I find it odd that we mention Aqua Dolphin but not Triple Tactical Talents, a card that only hand rips your opponent after you get handtrapped and that still sees consistent side deck and main deck play just because the hand knowledge and the ability to cut out your opponent from disrupting your extenders is extremely valuable in modern yugioh.
People usually use the draw effect of talents
@@Bob12649Not true at all, all 3 effects are very good and see use consistently. The only time you would use the draw 2 effect after getting handtrapped over the hand rip effect, is if you desperately needed extension to put up a threatening board, otherwise the rip and hand knowledge are much much better.
discard is one of the few things in magic that hasn't actually power crept particularly, they've never printed anything as devastating as hymn to tourach was
I think a big part of why Yu-Gi-Oh hand rips are so broken is because a lot of them give you hand knowledge , it lets you plan your disruption specifically against cards that would break your board or starters. Take one of those away and stop the other, it's basically over.
Also hand knowledge is broken in yugioh, unlike other card games.
@@haxalicious Hand knowledge is broken in any sufficiently fast card game. It is extremely good in legacy and vintage mtg, less relevant in slower formats.
@@haxaliciousnah i would argue most players vomit their entire hands regardless its stronger in yugioh because unlike mtg cards dont have a cost in mtg if you discard something they couldn’t player it anyways if you do it earlier game and pokemon has insane draw 7 cards to refill your hands
Video... I don't even know anymore of aaking for "How Good Is Deck Searching In Every Card Game?"
It's on the pile keep it up!
Man only has a dozen videos, calm down I'm sure he'll get to it my guy
in the early to mid 2000s i used to play a TCG based on A Game of Thrones called "A game of Thrones: TCG" (which actually came out almost 10 years before the TV show) which has had disruption as a core mechanic. Oneof 3 ways you would choose to battle your opponent directly removed cards from your opponents hand.
I love this idea of looking at all of the different card games, its so much better to enjoy them all. Enjoy the differences within the genre.
There's so many Yugioh handrip examples you didn't get too as well, that are generic and even legal (or were at some point) that show just how insane it is as a mechanic or even a whole strategy.
You've got:
Darkworld Sillva double handrip
Hieratic Gishki from back in the day that would handloop your opponent
The new Grepha Fusion in Dark World with its replacement effect hand rip
Stellarknight Triverr was hated because it would reset the field and handrip your opponent for 1
When Star Seraphs were played they played Evilswarm Ouroboros to handrip your opponent
There's the Rank 9 XYZ in Enterblathnir that handrips your opponent with a banish
Gumblar turbo as a deck from years ago
Generaider handrips
Dark Law's handrip with a Macro Cosmos on legs
Cards like Triple Tactics Talent which is an insane utility card
Arguably you could include cards like Dark Matter Dragon and Lithosagym in this context too since they rip cards out of an otherwise uninteractible "extra hand" so to speak.
The Grepha Fusion causes the player who activated grapha's effect to discard
It might be worth noting, that with "Soft Hand Attack" In YGO it can be extremely hit or miss and very match-up dependant.
Sometimes making your opp discard a random card is amazing. othertimes, you just gave them access to a combo piece or play starter.
Remember a story from r/masterduel. A Unchained player bricked, then their Labyrinth opponent pop a card in their hand and hit Sharvara kick out an entire Unchained combo and opponent scoop out of shame.
I just discovered this channel yesterday, and there's already a new video, and about a mechanic that I'm using! (The Ju 87 in Kards which discards a random card in the opponent's hand when it attacks the enemy face)
There are various other hand attack effects in Kards, both random and targeted. Also, there are cards that can make hand attacks backfire: when they are discarded, they instead put themselves in play or give the owner other useful effects.
In LoR hand attack was pretty much useless throughout of it's existence. The general explanation for it is that hands shuffle pretty fast and you can include up to 3 copies of a card in your deck, like, you've lost an important card? Don't worry, you have 2 more copies. Here are some examples of hand attacking cards.
Early bird - 2 mana slow from Bandle city - oppponent discards their highest cost card. Despite it being added alongside with Elder Dragon it never seen a maindeck play, which just shows how bad a hand attack is in this game.
Prank - 1 mana focus token spells that show you 2 cards from enemy hand and allow you to "prank" them (give +2 cost, -1 power and vulnerable, etc). Pranks are never used as a win strategy, but are a cheap generatable spells in regions that love it.
Skip, king of the riff - 2 mana 1|2 elusive from Bandle city - play: look at 2 random cards from the enemy hand and capture one of them. When everyone first saw Skip they thought it would be a superstrong card. Back in the day Teemo-Zoe was a popular deck, that was winning games with lots of cheap elusive units opponent could hardly interact with. Skip had a fair statline and his hand attack could be really usefull, allowing him to steal cards opponent could interact with elusives. However, rotation happened and the deck in general was nerfed, so, despite being the closest to making hand attack work in LoR, Skip haven't seen much play.
I feel like hand disruption was always present in small ways in lor. The biggest contender is aloof travelers (both players draw and the opponent discards the highest cost card). For example it is lowkey a winning strategy atm with mordekaiser to trigger the effect multiple times a round, which is just a general disruption. Also Skip joined the foes in pretty much any elusive deck since his release and sometimes in papercraft dragon decks aiming to otk. I d say hunt the weak and tricksy tentacles were the worst interaction cards, bc discarding cheap cards is just not that important. Add somewhere here the SI card that shuffles into the enemy deck. Closely followed by early bird which really was only maindecked to discard mordekaiser and destroy their strongest engine card and sometimes against Elder Drag. Pranks were very good when shellfolk had a better statline, but without it their value is much lower. In other cases it was just included in seraphine decks as a 1 off, which just shows the medicore value. I would like to know if other cardgames have smth similiar to curses? Aka you force the opponent once to play 2 mana to be able to play spells again. This can stack btw and was toxic in a meta
Aloof travelers is rather good as far as i remember.
@@boxtopus3689 Kinda disagree. It would be silly to deny that Aloof is played, but it mostly because Mordekaiser is one of the most powerfull cards in LoR history and not because Aloof is irreplacable. You basically can pair Mordekaiser with any concept and get a playable deck, yet I admit that Aloof mill existed before Mordekaiser, despite never been competitive. Same goes with pranks. You don't put prank cards in your deck because you aim to win by pranking your opponent, you put them because of Nami/admiral shelly/shellfolk. It's not hand attack specifically is good but rather something that synergises with cheap spell is good, or shellfolk giving you a tonn of value.
One interesting aspect of this topic related to Yugioh is that hand attack effects in general in the Rush Duel format are notoriously bad because of how the card draw system in that game works. Players draw up to a full hand of five cards at the beginning of each of their turns, so by "forcing" an opponent to discard a card you are often actually benefiting them by allowing them to dump cards in their hand they don't want while getting an extra draw for a card they potentially do. Spells and Traps which maintain an advantageous board state by stopping an opponent's attack or removing a key boss monster are much more disruptive forms of interaction in Rush so generally gimmicky hand attack cards don't see much play.
I'm surprised Glide didn't show up in the Hearthstone section
Exactly what I thought, love this card btw
Nubatama: a hand attack strategy so strong that the designers didn't even give you enough cards for a full deck until the Break Ride era, and even then the effects were changed to "temporary exile with a chance at maybe discarding one or two of those cards."
Fwiw in Yugioh a major part of what makes hand attack strong besides the generally high tempo of the game is that most meaningful handrips let you look at the opponent's hand and pick, thus granting perfect hand knowledge that you can immediately act on by playing around any interruptions they have/ the absence thereof. With Appointer and Dustshoot they're so strong despite only being reliable on turn 1 because you fire them off at the start of the opponent's turn after their draw for turn and they look at their entire hand, so you start their turn knowing everything they have allowing you to manage your own interruptions better and avoid getting baited.
Of the handrips that don't look at the hand, they can be very hit or miss depending on what they hit & what you're left with; losing the one starter in hand is a devastating hit but if you opened two of it then suddenly it hardly matters. In addition to that a lot of decks in Yugioh use the grave pretty heavily, so handrips that force discards have an almost 50:50 chance to actually give your opponent a boost letting them set up turn 0; Handrips that shuffle back into deck are typically safer but also have the hazard of accidentally shuffling back "garnets" your opponent drew that they'd rather remain in the deck for an interaction with another card.
Afaik modern day CCV actually has a negligible play rate because it got it's effect changed, where it's original version was definitely broken the modern one no longer lingers and gives your opponent damage protection for the turn and the choice to pop up to 3 monsters in their deck, which if awful because if they don't want to pop their own in deck monsters they don't have to, and if they do you're letting them search & mill up to 3 monsters. It does have successors in other Virus traps that are functionally similar though, Eradicator Epidemic Virus being the major one these days whose differences are that it requires a high ATK sacrifice instead of a low ATK one, and it destroys your choice of either Spells or Traps instead of mid to high ATK monsters.
Its because cards cost nothing, in mtg you wont beable to play all the stuff discarded regardless etc while in yugioh you can play everything
The funny thing about Illucia is that it wasn’t even nerfed because of the hand disruption aspect, it was nerfed because it was just Time Warp in Aggro priest
Unseen saboteur has got some use in some combo decks as well
I only know about mtg and hearthstone, but I think an important difference is that in MTG you can run 4 copies of all of your cards and sometimes get them back from the graveyard, whereas in hearthstone you may have 1 copy of an essential card in your deck that you can never get back if your opponent plays hand disruption.
I think that's why discard and hand disruption is so rare in hearthstone, the developers are very keyed into the feel of the game and don't want the play pattern to skew in a way that feels bad for one player
Then in Cardfight it was so strong in set 1 they didn’t print the deck that did it for 12 more main sets, and even then only made it temporary after it came back
Should have looked at cards like hymn to tourach and mind twist in mtg. Discard spells go way beyond TS and Cabal ritual
In Star Wars Destiny hand attacks are basic abilities of dice (most cards) most of the disvard one or two cards, you can also resolve multiple card attack dice all at once stopping your oponent from palying the entire round
Crazy games when I get to resolve Palpatine 2 times in a row. Terrible hero but I had to play him
Grief is not currently legal in modern
The most important part of hand disruption is the knowledge of the players hand. This allows you to perfectly play around what should otherwise be hidden knowledge.
Final Fantasy TCG has three of its eight colors/elements employ hand attack, Wind, Ice and Darkness:
- Wind has very few but very prominent Cards, most being some iteration of Zidane, that give various flavors of dicard on an evasive body. Some are just plain discard 1, some are targeted discard 1 but draw one, but the targeted version has high prevalence.
Despite or rather because of that, he has been a staple in the color to curate your opponents hand content and pull their removal or pressure pieces to go with Winds Tempo or Ramp Gameplans.
-Ice is a color built around ressource denial, be it by tapping down and freezing (preventing untap) your opponents cards or attacking their hand size since cards in hand are also a source of Mana.
Ice has barely any targeted discard and only recently got random discard to put opponents under more pressure of losing key pieces, but has a much higher density of discard effects and cards that punish opponents for being too low on hand cards. Or in some cases even for keeping to many and not playing their hand out.
This, when currently strong, makes it a very oppressive lockdown color across the whole aggro, midrage and control spectrum, depending on the current meta and colors ices gets paired with.
On the other hand, draw and tutoring are very prevalent across all colors in FF (by now) so for discard to really do anything it has to combat quite some opposing recovery options, though there was a time in early sets, where a turn 1 double discard opener could lock people out of winning the game.
-Darkness, like light, is not a proper element but a generic options able to be slotted into most decks in low amounts. Where light cards tend to be about buffing your stuff and drawing you cards, dark cards tend to mess with your opponent, though both colors are generic grab bags of effects as they are mutually exclusive and mostly exist for flavor and generic options.
Thus, while more dark cards with discard exist than even in wind, they don't really do it as a full on gameplan and most often only do single card, untargeted discard an thus are very easy to recover from.
Honorable yugioh mentions: Topological gumblar dragon (now banned), dark world decks, trickstar reincarnation chain droll
Ah yes, Grief in Modern
As a hearthstone player this video kind of made me think about the presence of other forms of disruption effects in other games and how good they would be. Things such as dirty rat, gnomeferatu, unseen sabotuer or disruptive spellbreaker which straight up remove a resource from your opponent but also certain other cards meant to disrupt their turn such as lotheb, rebuke or cold feet. Hey maybe that could be an idea for a future video. Great content by the way it's always interesting for me to learn things outside the scope of my usual games
Well, Dirty rat can also backfire by sommoning a free Deathwing for your opponent on turn 2.
@The360MlgNoscoper who in their right mind rats on two. Absolute madlads. But yeah too true I have won my fair share of games off a bad turn two rat from my opponent
Gwent as always differs greatly from other card games. Because there is no card draw hand attack can not exist in the game, or if it does exist, it should be weak on purpose. There are only a couple hand attack mechanics in game.
1. Kambi is a 4 power 10 provision Skellige card that says "deploy: discard your rightmost card, then opponent discards their rightmost card". The card is horrific for 10 provision, and, despite Skellige has powerfull discard synergies, it was far from playability. First and foremost, you needed to have a card you want to discard as a rightmost card in you hand, secondly, you can't guarantee that your opponent has an important card as their rightmost card. The only way Kambi has seen play was win secure. You are slightly ahead - you play Kambi to remove your opponent's last card - you win the game. The most important is that Kambi could be generated through Magic Compass, and Magic Compass was a super playable card, so one should have always been aware of loosing to a Kambi.
2. One of Nilfgaards leader abilities allows you to manifest (pick 1 of 3 options) a card from your opponent's hand. This is the strongest form of hand attack in gwent, because it gives you a knowledge of your opponent's hand, which, in my experience, is the most important in gwent among all other card games. +it could be combined with rune mage, who allows to choose from 5 options. However, Nilfgaard is the single strongest region in the game, so it had much better things to do.
Its weird how this guy never used other card game examples
@@NeostormXLMAX So I'm doing it for him, I don't even watch the video to be honest.
Also in Yu-Gi-Oh there are decks (like the Dark World deck) that can rip all the cards of the opponents' hand on turn one. And then you have maybe the one card that you draw for turn and you have to play through their board, or else you are dead next turn.
hi!! A couple of videos ago i commented saying that one of your videos helped magic click for me when I'd previously been a pretty bad player.
Well, update, turns out I was right! I've been consistently winning more, or bringing games to closer losses than before! And I've become much more confident with a bigger variety of colour combinations :) thanks for the help!
What were you missing before?
@@sasir2013 It's hard to qualify exactly. The pacing of fights and the value of different responses, kinda? Like his 'how good is x thing in y game' videos helped me figure out how to even weigh the effectiveness of a strategy in the first place. I had so little context for what I should be doing that it was easy to bogged down in questions. In a game with a deck of 100 cards, when do I decide if redirecting a spell, discarding a hand or summoning a creature is worth the cost? I was making the wrong call a lot. The different colours in magic were throwing me off too. I was AWFUL at burn decks because I kept waffling and going 'I shouldn't attack this turn, I'll draw too much attention to myself' in commander games when I had way more affordance to be aggressive than I knew I did. The caution served me better playing blue and white, but when faced with the power-at-a-cost of black or the more brazen strategies of green and red I completely floundered.
This video must have been in the oven for a while since Grief has been banned in modern for like 2 months now.
The fairest YGO hand loop card is lovely labrynth, and that’s a boss monster of a slow control deck that only does it randomly, you have to jump through hoops to do it, and people STILL complain about it being too strong. It’s insane how good hand destruction is in ygo
Another great disruption card in Pokémon was a persian that let you chose cards to discard from opponent's hand until 4 cards remain, core card for a variety of control decks
Kind of disappointed Lovely Labrynth wasn't mentioned at all in the Yugioh section, because that's a really fair instance of hand attack in my experience. It helps that Lovely isn't the easiest card in the world to both get out and proc, Big Welcome notwithstanding, and she's very importantly just small enough for most big bosses to run over before it can become an issue.
I really like your videos and I think that lofi songs(or something like that) would fit very well
The absence of a resource system like mana in Yu-Gi-Oh makes the hand attack problem even worse for both players.
The person who uses the hand attacks generally do so with essentially no lost opportunity cost and can just proceed to do other plays after removing a point of interaction from the opponent's hand (because the commonly played hand attacks let you choose which cards to remove).
The person who receives the hand attacks lose a card that they would've used on the current turn or the turn immediately after since they cost no resources, and generally don't get it back in time due to the fast pace of the game.
This problem has gotten so severe at one point that there were combo decks whose goal was to use so many hand attacks in one turn that the opponent would start the duel with 0-1 cards in hand (the standard is 6 btw), and they would accomplish this almost every match due to the nature of the game (unban Gumblar though he's cool).
A few of these cards are both hand attack and hand knowledge. Hand knowledge is just straight up Op as you know everything your opponent can play and can just play around everything in their hand.
The real question... how good is hand attack for the quality of TCGs? The answer: It's terrible, anything that isn't N / Iono can just burn out of existence.
in YGO the term is hand ripping " that Dark world player hand ripped me for 4"
Everyone keeps saying that hand rip is strong in YGO because of hand knowledge, and this is true. But I think it's also really important to remember that the difference between random discard in YGO and targeted discard also allows you to hit the best starter, and that's what's truly crazy. Appointer is occasionally a literal turn skip because decks are often incentivized to open 1 good starter and then lots of support, Appointer says "Yeah you don't get to play this turn actually" even though it hits just 1 card. It's a bit similar to turn 1 Thoughtseize in MtG ruining your development, if that development was exactly one turn and then op could kill you instantly after.
Shadowfist is played with 3-4 players and you fill your hand to 6 every turn. Hard to imagine a worse environment for hand disruption. The only time you really see it is in "Paper Trail" decks, which is an enchantment that generates a mana whenever a player discards. Because players often discard from their own hand in order to draw more cards, playing against Paper Trail feels like cedh with Rhystic/Mystic in play.
The one problem with your point on YGO Hand Attacks is that there's an entire deck called "Lair of Darkness" built around the Crush Card Virus trap cards.
My buddy has a deck built around them and it's a horrible blast lol
it would be cool, if you add a small section covering how newer tcgs (one piece, digimon, lorcana etc…) do these things.
Lorcana discard is similar in strength to how it is in magic, there is a ton of discard options and one of the colors has huge payoff for making your opponents discard
You should make a video about stall strategies so you can rant about mystic mine lol
Because the power level of singular cards is so strong in yugioh, and they dont have a mana cost that gates them from being able to be played all in 1 turn, looking at your opponents hand and removing even just 1 card can win you the game
Heya theres one more kind of hand attack in mtg that is much more niche and it is forcing your opponent to discard random cards. The two examples that come to mind are burning inquiry and hymn to torach. These are often some of the least fun cards to play against because depending on the cards discarded you sometimes just lose and they were meta for a long time and still have niche decks in modern and legacy respectively
In HS hand attack is only good against specific decks. If im playing aggro and you spend 4 mana to get rid of my max 3 mana card then you might as well press ff right then and there
Now that you did discard... now you know you must do mill
yugioh is funny about this cuz like. i mean i like TTT or psyframe omega or even like appointer / old mind crush but you cant trust anyone with these effects because then they go crazy and start handlooping the entire hand (war flashbacks to gumblar format and wind ups)
The best form of hand-attack is random hand-attack.
Swamp. Dark Ritual. Toughtseize. Hymn to Tourac. This is how to have fun. ^^
They banned Mind Crush from TCG, not because it was super overpowered as an often 1-for-1 targeted removal on a normal trap (usually responding to a searcher) but because the rules around game knowledge were changed where it was practically unenforceable
I think it would be wise to explore other TCGs when bringing up examples, since there are more TCGs than just those 4 and extrapolating them to be all there is can feel reductive to the other games. The current popular bandai TCGs (One Piece and Digimon) are a good place to start. Great video though!
Yeah I would like to try some other ones for videos but sorta been busy this month. Maybe when I get some more free time I'll look into trying some others for videos (flesh and blood, lorcana, one piece there are alot I wanna try lol)
@ looking forward to that!
I recommend checking out Sorcery if you like weird card interactions. There's a lot of completely wild stuff you can do there that would never fly in other card games and it's really fun (but not suited for balanced competitive play). From the few times I've played, I've seen cards that let you steal your opponent's cards and put them in your hand, cards that summon minions that then draw *their own* hand that only they can play, cards that let you warp the playing field by inserting themselves between other cards, pushing them aside. There's a card that lets you loop the playing field so that instead of operating on a map with edges, you can exit the westernmost square to appear at the easternmost square like it's an old JRPG map.
The whole time during this video I was just thinking back at how a guy I played with stole my spell card and then used it to destroy me. It's not just hand attack; It's hand terrorism. Though I guess Sorcery is so different from other TCGs, it's not really a great comparison candidate.
Great video! Have you considered making a patreon?
In Pokémon your opponent's Iono will cripple you, but your Iono will get your opponent exactly what they need, idk why it's just the way it is
Nah but fr when I play and I'm ahead by a couple prizes then I usually have to account for a surprise Iono because buying even one turn is very strong in Pokémon
Hand ripping is fair and balanced.
I play Dark World, Generaiders, Gishki and Labrynth btw.
how good is milling your opponent to win in every card game?
Wouldn't Wheel of Fortune or Windfall (in agressive decks) also function as simultaneous hand attack and consistency tools by the definition offered in this video?
Yes but due to mana costs the cards drawn off of wheel effects don't add to play right away the way they do in Pokémon. This makes them much weaker outside of combo strategies in magic where using those 7 cards is the point of the strategy. Might do a video on wheel effects later.
I would love to know whats your opinion on Master Duel, since you made a video about not playing marvel snaps because of the p2w and LoR because of the hard to understand what to do
while master duel is super f2p but imo its harder to understand what to do more than LoR, but do you enjoy playing it (if you play it) ? if so why ?
Yeah I don't play master duel but I have previous knowledge from playing paper yu-gi-oh so my understanding is better. I think that master duel is good if you already play yu-gi-oh and horrible if you treat it as free to play/for new players. Pokémon TCG live does it way better imo.
As others have said, hand attack *with card knowledge* is broken in yugioh. There are still very good cards like eradicator epidemic virus that have been on the banned and limited list but aren’t nearly as game breaking as trap dust shoot, etc
I play GOAT format and can confirm hand engaging cards hurt bad.
Thoughtsies :3
Now isnt mind rot good because it allows you to target yourself? It would be good in graveyard decks where you wanna actively put creatures in the graveyard which you would then play from the graveyard. In case you drew a creature instead of self milling
In most formats where that effect is good they have self discard effects with upside like thirst for knowledge or faithless looting.
My favorite deck format. I love to sabotage my opponent. It’s like blue counter decks from MTG, but less evil.
For hearthstone you missed cost raisers like loatheb or boom pistol bully
Okay but have you ever heard of deck attack? (Parasite Paracide in Yu-Gi-Oh)
I saw your video on drawing two cards, I thought that’s nice, I’ll save it for later. But this one on hand attack?!? My three favorite words are turn one thoughtsieze. The scam deck? Well it’s a scam I can only play 4 grief per deck. Mind rot? Card’s rotting in my hand cause I haven’t cast it yet.
Is it just me or is every one of these:
In magic it's pretty much balanced, because of how mana costs have to work, except a couple random early cards
In yugioh it's overpowered, because yugioh cards don't have costs, and there really aren't modern cards that just do this generically, because of how archetypes work in yugioh
Pokemon is weird
Again with the outdated Yu-Gi-Oh examples. Literally all of them but Crush Card Virus and the monsters, the latter of which see no play by the way (made me giggle hearing him actually make that claim in 2024 for aqua dolphin or Wind-Up Hunter), are currently banned and have been for a long time now (some since 2005, almost 20 years) due to the fact the designers know that the unrestricted hand attack they offered was an issue.
An actual example of a commonly used hand attack card in the modern game would be Triple Tactics Talent, a generic spell card that relies on your opponent activating a monster effect to even be used, allowing you to either: take control of an opponent's monster for the turn, look at the opponent's hand and shuffle a card into their deck, or draw two cards. But this too is susceptible to the negation that is all too common nowadays.
In fact, outside of the previous example, "Hand Attack" in modern Yu-Gi-Oh is quite a rare thing. Not that it is something that wouldn't be powerful, just that Konami (the company that makes Yu-Gi-Oh) have done a decent job at killing off the cards that allowed that to be easily accomplished. So the entire point he makes in the Yu-Gi-Oh section of this video is moot since while the points he states are true, someone playing the game today is not likely going to face any significant hand attack.
I feel like there was potential to examine how Yu-Gi-Oh dealt with the issue of Hand Attack as this was at one point a big problem in the game. Sadly that just never got addressed and instead SodaTCG decided to instead present it as if it is still a significant issue in the game, when it really has not been for a long time now.
And if you are curious, the reason Aqua Dolphin is not played (and has not been really played, even in the specific deck it was made for, Heroes) is because it's just too slow and effect/summon negations or monster removal are a dime-a-dozen and can be found in nearly every deck released since 2013. Just not worth sacrificing a core card in any competent deck for a singleton hand rip, especially when other more flexible cards are around that can do the same thing or different, more useful effect. Wind-up hunter is more so a victim of the latter + power creeping as the decks it was apart of are now way to slow in the modern game (it's extremely easy for competent decks to stop it before it gets into a position to begin attacking your hand).
I feel that you sorta answered your own question here. Yu-gi-oh removing these effects or making them too weak to see play is more side stepping the issue rather than making cards that can play with it in interesting ways. This is part of why I like the design of TTT or pot retrains so much ( desires is a favorite of mine). Just wish we could see the effect in a way that was more balanced so that rather than me not having many good examples of hand attack for the video I could talk about its level of impact on the game like I did with pokemon or magic.
@@SodaTCG I wasn't trying to ask a question with this comment, I'm just fact checking that section of the video as without any understanding of the game people will take what you posted at face value when it simply is not an accurate representation of this mechanic in modern Yu-Gi-Oh. Unlike the other games you covered, that entire section of the video is pretty irrelevant to the modern player since next to none of the cards you discuss will ever be encountered in normal play today (let alone competitive play).
In fact, that could have been the focus of that section of the video or it could have been very simply caveated with the statement that due to the sheer power of the mechanic, Konami chose to cull this from the game early on in its history. In which case you could've used the examples you gave as examples of why this was done and even discussed how their potential legality today could warp the meta around them. Yet you chose to instead present those banned/rarely used cards as if they are a modern concern, which comes off as spreading misinformation and detracts from what was otherwise quite a useful and accurate video.
That being the case hopefully for future topics you can avoid this type of pitfall as I would like to see more content of this type in the future, there is definitely a lot to be discussed.
Yeah for new players I could be confusing but my videos are more about the effects over time rather than in the current standard metagame, it's just that yu-gi-oh lacks effects to use as such an example for standard in this case. I plan to create interest and overlap for players of not only these card games but others looking into them as well. If a new player would see my videos and expect the things I said would apply to their standard metagame it would be untrue for all the games I talked about not just yu-gi-oh. I even forgot to mention that grief was banned in modern which would confuse players in mtg for sure.
@@SodaTCG If the intention for this video was to "show the effects over time" of this mechanic (hand attack) in each TCG, then you did not at all communicate that. The video is presented as if you are communicating what this mechanic currently looks like in each game. And that in itself causes problems when you present such fundamentally flawed information (as I have pointed out in my past replies for the Yu-Gi-Oh section, you present a situation that simply has not been true for Yu-Gi-Oh in many years).
I also disagree regarding the lack of effects to discuss regarding hand attack. As I said in my last reply, you could have used all the examples you already used, and more if you simply pointed out that this was a historical problem that was eventually cracked down on due to the issues it caused (and you could go even further into that if you wished, especially with the modern hand attack cards that have actually seen play within the last decade lol).
And if you simply don't have recent knowledge of Yu-Gi-Oh, there are plenty of creators in the space who you could consult with who would be happy to share their insight. Hell, you could probably do that for all the different TCGs, reach out to well known influencers in the space to see if they want to chime in on this topic in your video. Get that sweet sweet crossover exposure into all the different communities.
But as I said in my last reply, I hope you are able to learn from this and avoid such errors in future content since this is quite enjoyable and useful content when done right!
@@SodaTCGThen why is the title in present tense? It should be "was" or "has been"
By saying "is" you're claiming this is how it looks now. Is a reason why I'm not enjoying your videos as much as I could, everytime I go to the comments I find that the information is, for the most part, outdated. And therefore, mostly useless.
Handrip in Yugioh is one of the most unfun things you can experience. It's basicly never fair, even when "legal" cards do it like Triple Tactics Talents or Chaos Dragon Levianeer. Some really unfair cards are not banned simply because the decktypes they're included in are not that good (Dark Law, Im looking at you) which can lead to a lot of non games where you lose basicly on turn 1. Cards like Psyframelord Omega are generic and can basjcly enable a handrip in any deck that has tuner access. Sadly in Yugioh cards rarely get banned unless it sees major play in big tournaments, even though it would be much healthier if certain cards would just generally be banned if they lead to unfair gamestates.
Fun fact you can summon dark law in any deck with mask change 2
Targeted hand attack in magic isnt format defining, those cards are staples for sure but is not so much on what they do as much as the rate or support.
Grief is format defining because it can be cast for free from hand, thoughtseize is crazy rate, cabal is awesome because of rate, recursion and how it interacts with the stack (you name the card after it resolves, so you have to counter it before you know the target or let it go through), and bat sees play in one type of deck in a pretty evenly spead format dominated by 5-6 decks (good card but far from meta defining).
I think "metadefining" a weird thing to say here, just like "countering spell effects" are format defining, or ramp, or burn. The effect is awesome when printed on a strong card of course, just like any effect. But yes, they are really strong effects, have to be seen as targeted removal.
Bro didnt mention Mind Twister which is banned in legacy and Hymn to Tourach.
New video! Lets go!
One thing that's really well designed about hand attacks in pokemon is that all of them are on supporters, which means you can't play them turn 1 going first and can't chain them together. (cough cough, yugioh should take notes lol)
honestly yugioh making cards that cant be played turn 1 is really sick idea for that game.
@@connortodd4538Well, that's what trap cards are
@@sasir2013 Yes, but the idea can be expanded
this video is already outdated: grief has been banned in modern for a while now
How good is being invincible in every card game er something?
Glide aka playing Pokemon
No Uno!?
Hand broken on yugioh is not only about hand knowledge like the below ppl claim. The most important aspect is still reducing or taking the important card to stop their combo. Because 1 card in yugioh can turn into a searh engine and start from 0 board into fullboard. It is that broken.
Not only you need cards to stop their combo, you also need cards to deal with established board. So yes and card that minus, and disrupt opp hand= devastating.
Hand knowledge is good but not the end, Even if you know they have Max C. Not much you can do about it unless stop the combo, but stop the combo meaning you gonna lose next turn anyway. So hand knowledge is totally useless
dark world momento
Would be awesome if you could also incorporate smaller TCGs like Flesh and Blood and Star Wars Unlimited in these vids :D
Wrote this script before the Grief ban, eh? 😅
opps I forgor
The second YuGiOh read is quite wrong.
Truly the going first is strong, but a lot of the cards listed are unbanned and not played at all at high level (and maybe i'm on personal experience, I haven't seen them neither in casual or lower competitive stuff).
Soft hand removal is costly, and things focused on it are bad.
Problem is how infamous has it been through dumb combos like droll lock or yata lock, which historically ruined the game.
I'm the only player i've seen in a while attempting to craft a deck of hand destruction, but it's quite a gamble nowdays with the amount of GY tools you get.
MTG has too much hand usually to even mind random card discards, the draw power of a card game based on cost which are alse cards themselves is an obvious target for developing a flow of drawing that needs to be more consistent, so losing hands at random is less trouble even on turn one. On YuGiOh you lose quite a lot more options by just discarding 1 card, and yet the lack of costs can make the effect hard backfire on you through almost a higher number of cards that are useful to discard for free than cards that can actually discard cards, both to youself or your rival.
I feel this comment was worded like shit and didn't accomplish anything, but whatever.
Ah my first proper MTG deck. Mono black discard. Where its running 8 rack effects. And aa many handrip effects and the classic Hypbotic Spectre and a couple of Grey merchants to finish off opponents with lifedrain.
as a yugioh player seeing broken things in yugioh on almost every video, makes me laugh because its true (it's a broken game)
Discussing black discard strategies in MTG, and no mention of Mind Twist, Hypnotic Spectre, Abyssal Spectre, Ravenous Rats, Megrim, or the mighty Hymn to Tourach? Wow, you're really trying to make me feel old, aren't you? Lol.
It’s not called “hand attack”, it’s either just discard/ing or hand disruption.
ummm.... Grief is banned in modern 😂
Grief is banned
Cabal Therapy is NOT staple in legacy it's not even playable outside breakfast
Please add Flesh and Blood to these analysis videos. Itself so unique compared to the other games shown, and is a lot of fun to compare to other games.
It's pretty dog in Yugioh, I get disqualified every time I try to use it