451 Mopar Stroker headed to Street Racing Channel's Engine Builder! From Lucore Automotive
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- Опубліковано 15 вер 2024
- Hey, if those crazy Street Racing Channel people trust Mr Bob McVey with their crazy engine builds, then we should too! As 73ChargerChic Katrina Bell is sitting around waiting for her car to go back together we made one final decision to get this 451 Stroker RIGHT before it goes into the car, better to fix things now than to fix it between the fenders.
First off, what the heck is a 451 Mopar? Well the short version of that answer is it's a 400 cubic inch Mopar, think the classic 383 big block but the last generation of it stuffed full of 440 Mopar goodies. We sourced a 440 forged crank shaft and rods, then put a set of ICON forged pistons on top. With that rotating assembly all together and shoved into the smaller tighter 400 block it SHOULD make for one heck of a screaming RPMing big block. Unfortunately, it's not.
During the original build and dyno sessions there were a lot of question marks as to what would work and what wouldn't. When we finished with the break in and let it run on the dyno we could quickly tell something just wasn't right. This big block mopar should happily spin to 5500RPM or higher but we were hitting a sort of "wall" at 4200-4300 and it almost refused to rev past that. After that, the questions really started flying. Was it floating valves? Was the timing not correct? Is it over cammed? Are the rockers too aggressive? Will the heads just physically not flow any more? Is there something breaking up in the ignition?
Unfortunately we really never got the chance to answer these issues so the motor was brought back to the shop where it has remained for the better part of a year waiting to go in her 1973 Dodge Charger SE. However, knowing we had something just not quite right, it was always digging into our minds about putting this motor in the car then having to diagnose it and fix it once it was already installed.
In stepped the influence of SRC Garage and Street Racing Channel, the SRC guys introduced us to Bob McVey who it seemed was the perfect man to help us in our situation. He had an engine dyno. He had a flow bench to test the heads. He was willing to communicate with us and take on the challenge. So the decision was made, load it up and let's get this thing figured out!
Lucore Automotive is a small independent American small business located just outside Columbus Ohio. While we are a full service shop that maintains and repairs countless daily drivers we are also well known for our work on classics, race cars, and collector cars.
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"Road Trip" - Nicolai Heidlas
Kind of a bitter sweet video here... really REALLY wanted to just take this motor set it down in her Charger and let her go have fun but.. It's just not right and that's just not our way. So time to figure this Mopar Monster out!
My guess is prw rocker arms! Let me know if this is your problem also? This will be the 3rd set i know of thats not right! Have you tried a good set of rockers?
@@anthonyking4387 Mmmm you're KIND of correct. Wasn't so much of badly machined rocker arms as an issue with the ratio ... make sure to watch the follow up episodes!
Stoked !! Waiting to get to the bottom of this. My guess would be valve float.. although to float at 4200 rpm ?? Something really has to be off... like.. 1.6 ratio rockers with old stock springs "off".
Hopefully you followed through to the conclusion of this little challenge. It was ... a few things. The 1.6 rockers were certainly part of it, not so much the springs ... well sort of. If you haven't watched the follow up videos it answers all the questions.
I don't remember you ever talking about having a problem with the motor but I do remember being disappointed with the results. It would be great to see that motor make around 500 hp. I hope at least 450 & around 6000 rpm. Make Momma happy.
It was a bit of a sensitive situation to be honest when the motor was originally "done". If it had made the numbers it made but still carried the full rev range we would have honestly been ok with things. With what this motor is likely going to go through it CAN'T be left running poorly or having issues like this.
To be honest if it had carried the extra 1000rpm that it should have we probably would have seen 430-440 horse. With the aluminum heads I think we're going to see north of 450 rather easily. I could be wrong though, this Mopar likes making us look dumb and frustrated 😤
Ok. I looked back at dyno videos & remember now. Good luck.
Sounds like floating the valves
That's what most of us thought as well at the very beginning, but WHY is it floating valves?
Hope you figure it out
It's getting figured out ONE WAY OR ANOTHER!!!
Ok... you starting the video and getting air hammered out was amazing!!
Lol! Further proof that NO ONE cares if I'm trying to make a video during shop hours ;)
Nick's Garage had a motor on the dyno and it kinda ran flat. I think later he found the valve springs had harmonic vibration going on. I think he shimmed them up a little.?
Hmmmm that's interesting... happen to have a link to that video? Nick is a wizard especially when it comes to Mopar stuff. Our spring pressure IS pretty serious already so not sure how much we could get away with on shimming
This will be interesting. Adjustable rockers? How were they adjusted. What was the compression? Can't wait to see what it is. Love Big Block Mopars.
Hopefully it's interesting, educational, and not TOO painful! Yes it has a set of brand new PRW rockers, we'll see what the setup is once we are under the valve covers. Compression should be somewhere in the 9.2-.9.3 range. Dyno time SHOULD be here in the next 2 or 3 days so you won't have to wait long!
bobs the best!100%
Good to hear. I'd like to see this motor scream.
The Fastest 69Tuner Supercar Shootout Legendary Motor . Royal Bobcat.
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@@LucoreAuto go over to Legendary Motor fastest 69 Supercar Shootout Tuner. Yanko/ Motion performance/ Royal bobcat/ AMC / 440.
Are there any good machine shops left in Columbus?!?!
There are a few of us, unfortunately this was more of an engine builder issue than a mechanic issue.
Didn't know y'all are doing machining now
@@my4cars528 typically speaking we don't, we partner with a few local machine shops for our work. Specifically M&M Head Service and McVay Automotive which you see here. Both Mike and Bob are great guys we can trust.
I'm thinking it's the heads and cam. The best these cast heads can do is a little above 200cfm on the intake, with .550 lift. I'm building a 400 B with the cast iron 452 heads since it's all I can work with (for now), so I stuck with a smaller cam to try and get the most out of them. But I sure would like to know the answer on this 451. Unfortunate as it is, it is cool to see and learn how these issues get fixed.
Thanks for the comment, this is EXACTLY why we are taking it back to the dyno to get this all sorted and documented for people who may be interested. There are quite a few important questions to answer here and we'll do our very best to check them all off.
There's a GOOD chance it's an issue of airflow through the heads and we're just hitting the maximum flow of the casting. We tried to do as little as possible to increase their flow over stock to make it more useful for the "Big Block Wars" video we did.... didn't wanna cheat to find some extra power.
So we have new Edelbrock heads. We have a new RPM intake. We have 1.5 PRW rockers in case we want to try those versus the 1.6 rockers that are in there... we can flow test the old heads AND the new ones... lots of data coming soon!
I had much better results with less exotic 440 tall deck motors using factory style 1.5 ratio ductile iron adjustable rocker arms mounted on minimally modified 906 cast iron heads so I think 475+ hp is an easily obtainable number especially now that I see that you have upgraded to Edelbrock heads. Maybe coulda used some more compression for new heads(?)but it should run great on pump regular. My advice when motor is installed in car is to adjust/modify distributor for a generous amount of initial timing (probably almost as much as starter motor can take) at idle speed and advance as quickly as possible to full advance after 1000 rpm or so to about 38°. Good luck & make us proud.
@@mickangio16 We actually DO also have a set of 1.5 rockers as well that we can test with should we want to step away from the 1.6s. As far as compression that SHOULD be somewhere in the. 9.2-9.3 range so right in the sweet spot of iron heads on pump gas. Unfortunately I don't have a definitive answer on the actual compression ratio but we'll hopefully know that soon.
If we don't HAVE to use the Aluminum heads at this point we'll save them for a later date. Realistically if this thing revs how it should and makes 440hp+ on iron heads that's MORE than enough. Keep in mind this isn't a our race car it's a street car that occasionally goes to the track 😉
IF we end up going Aluminum heads... this thing is going to be on the top end of what we really want out of a classic street car without some serious safety upgrades.
I'm with ya on all counts.
@@mickangio16 Hopefully we'll have some answers SOON!
omg! lol the opening for this! it least it's still really pretty :)
Hopefully we don't hurt the pretty pretty paint job!
What a nightmare. Thank goodness I know exactly what it is. I've Kenworths for years. When I first started my business.. I had to do all the repairs. The truck has to be going by tomorrow. So that night I changed a head I was having problems with. After adjusting valves.. the engine had an intermittent miss. It was together at 3pm...finally...12 hours later I wanted to cry.. I couldn't solve the misfire....4 am I climb into the cab and noticed the Jake brake ( exhaust brake) switch was on ...something I never left on. Flip the switch ran fine. Over the years sometimes the little stupid things can trip you up. I'm anxiously waiting to see what the problem is.. hang in there guys. So the joke was check the Jake switch. Lol
Lol well we can certainly feel your pain and frustration, can also verify the Jake Brake switch was NOT on when this thing begins misbehaving! Fingers crossed in the next couple days we know the true cause of our issues!
Is that what you get with the 383 crank in a 400?
Good question, the 383 and 400 are essentially the same motor just the 400 when slightly bigger bore but lower compression. The 451 is built from using the Crank and Rods from a 440 shoved into a 400 block.
A 383 crank in a 400 will give you...400 cu. in.! You CAN benefit from a 383 crank by using a forged steel example in a 400 block. The 400 was equipped with cast iron externally balanced cranks.
@@mickangio16 indeed Sir! The 440 crank that's now resting in our stroker motor is forged as well so should be ready and willing for the abuse it will be getting!
are you one of santas helpers..???
ok you did your homework. but you can do it. you have the equipment/ you have the tech. You can make it right and . oh wait sounds like Bionics. When you do find out what it is your going to kick yourselves because its going to be a simple concern. (it all ways is). Good luck and not griping just trying to help. didn't realize you put some time in to diag.
Oh believe me when I say many of the grey hairs you see in my beard now are from this Mopar and its madness. Even so far as pulling the engine off the dyno, tearing it down, and building it all the way back up just to make sure there wasn't something serious going on. We have thrown just about every dart we could at it but.. none of it really seemed to change things. Which is why we're willing to spend the time/money to get it back on the dyno to get this sorted once and for all. AND, it will certainly be educational for ourselves and hopefully our viewers.
No worries just explaining a bit of the back story. We certainly aren't taking it lightly with having to get this thing on the dyno AGAIN versus getting her car put back together and drive-able! Really REALLY wish we weren't doing this!
What kind of h.p. were u expecting from this motor?
Honestly we weren't expecting MUCH more than it made, somewhere in the 440-450 range is what we were looking for. The issue isn't so much that it's massively down on power it's the RPM issue. Generally speaking this motor shouldn't have any problem revving to 5500+ and that's more where our concerns are. Sorting out that issue will realistically gain us some power just in the extra 1000 RPM.
Now.. with the head swap, that's a little different. We should see a pretty decent improvement in power going from the old junky cast irons to some good quality aluminum ones. Just how much exactly... we'll see soon enough ;)
@@LucoreAuto I'll be watching to see what they find...
@@garyjones2582 we'll share it all! The good the bad and the ugly!
I don't think the problem was air flow related. Maybe something to do with valvetrain harmonics or control(?) My son swapped heads on a warmed up motor home 440 that ran very strong for a set of lightly modified 906s that I had used many yrs earlier without a world of difference. I think maybe something to do with rocker, valvespring, pushrod issue(?) Anxious to find out.
@@mickangio16 this us exactly why we are just biting the bullet and putting it back in the dyno 😀. There are so many opinions all over the board about what it is/could be we just want to put it all together rest and verify what it IS. To me, when we initially saw/heard the run it was a valve issue, either not adjusted correctly or floating due to weight or something else. But with adjustments to the rockers that still didn't seem to make much difference. We're certainly going to triple check that though to make sure it's not something simple and easy.
We also have to acknowledge these "Motorhome Heads" aren't designed for high RPM air flow so.... we'll all see soon!
That guy used up a whole weeks worth of ugga duggas in one go.
Lol!
Personally I blame squirrels
It COULD be squirrels!
Stock 400 heads are good for stock 400 's . 30 years ago you would have looked for 440 heads & switched them out . Adjustable rockers should not be an issue at all it should help if anything . If over cam it should messed up at lower rpm , but I could be wrong . Glad you can figure it out now . Don't want mamma Mopar sad !
Technically these are "440 Motorhome Heads" so designed for the higher displacement but also not designed for big flow numbers at the higher levels. Admittedly there WERE better cast BB Mopar heads we could have used but these were ones we had and seemed like they would work for our mission.
We've got another year of homework since this thing was built and a whole lot more people paying attention and giving their info so HOPEFULLY a solution is found without having to do any major major surgery. We'll know soon, should have it roaring back to life in the next couple days!
HOWdy LUCORE / Momma's MOPAR,
BARNEY the Purple MOPAR Stroker
Might I mention that that OIL-PAN SUMP has a terrible LOCATION 😞
isn't there a better option ? ( NOT a MOPAR man )
Diagnosis of the Dead - SPOT at 4,200 RPM ...
Thanks
COOP
the WiSeNhEiMeR from Richmond, INDIANA
...
Dude Dude. Go back to the basics. Sounds like either timing isn't advancing or not getting enough fuel or slow response. since RPM's do increase and its not popping/missing valve float should not be an issue. I'm guessing your using a 780 double pumper or 800. swapping out the carb should have been the first attempt and also checking timing advance. Engine itself sounds solid and since RPM's do eventually raise its not a restriction or valve concern. Do a Sherlock on it. rule out the possibilities and what ever you have left. yadda yadda yadda. that's the fix . Hey is that your Dyno???. Dang got to go and diag a 429 that wiped out the cam and bearings. wonder if cust put in the oil pump drive. My guess NO.
Unfortunately we TRIED all the basics a year ago when the motor was originally on the engine dyno and didn't really get anywhere. We actually ended up running 2 different carbs on the motor both of which are more than enough for a 451 (very capable of 800+hpon 600+ci) So we KNOW it's not a carb issue.
Timing? Nope not the issue. We have timing curve set and verified, also played around with timing extensively when it was originally on the dyno. All driven through an MSD box which we verified is working properly, even swapped out the brand new MSD Pro Billet for another one... exact same issue.
The back story behind this motor and what all we have gone through to get it running right is... long. SOME of that you can see in the older videos of her playlist. Let's just say all the simple stuff has been checked/changed/verified, so unfortunately the next phase is get it BACK on the dyno to figure out what in the heck is wrong.
The way the engine sounds it seems like the internals are ok to me. Thinking it's a perefrial like ignition or fueling issue. As far as heads, valves, cam and intake type stuff, I have thrown all kinds of different junk together on BBM and they all ran rpm just fine.
We tend to agree with you, especially with the amount of pulls we made on the dyno when it was first put together. If something WAS wrong it would have come apart in catastrophic fashion already.
On the ignition and fueling side of things, it was run on a Digital 7 MSD box (which we verified is good) and 2 different Pro Billet distributors. No matter the change it always did basically exactly the same thing. On the fueling side, the carb you see in the dyno runs is a 1050 that's more than capable of big power/RPM on 600+ci motors so... that's likely not it.
THIS is exactly why we're putting it back on the dyno to sort out, too many "could be this" things. We'll HOPEFULLY have an answer to these problems in the next couple days!
@@LucoreAutoThanks for the reply. Sounds like you may have already worked past the stuff I mentioned then. One time I switched a big block in place of a small block and just extended the wires to the distributor. That one caused me problems by retarding the timing instead of advancing it as the speed came up. Just switched the 2 wires around and it was fine. It acted up at lower RPM and of course that was a stock electronic distributor and orange Mopar box on factory wiring. Very strange problem you are fighting there for sure. Will be interesting to see what turns up. We might all learn something. 👍
Oh used to oversee 20 + techs in a service department. FORD but all ways was a Hotrodder by heart. Techs used to say I didn't have any confidence in there work. Id say.. NO NO I have all the confidence in the world on your work, and I quote (If there was a way to *&% things up you guys would find the way) they new I was joking. but no I really wasn't.
Why are you sending the engine off to another engine builder if you don't know what's wrong?
It could be something minor,unless you know it's not.
Did Performance Research build the engine?
We're sending it off to Bob because we trust him to shoot straight with us on what is going on and he's willing to tackle the challenges of this motor. We spent tons of time money and energy with Performance Research trying to get this thing right and it just never was.
If it's something minor, that's great and it should be a quick and easy fix. Realistically it's probably not just going to be a a valve adjustment and go but we can pray. Either way, this thing WILL be running right by the time it leaves Bob's.
@@LucoreAuto i warned you about performance research a while back
@@johndillinger8482 unfortunately it just didn't go well for us with that engine and that engine builder specifically. Learning experience for sure, unfortunately lessons cost time and money.
Good videos but you need to edit them down for time
We try to cut down as much as we can while still including all the important little bits. We DO fully acknowledge though that sometimes we get a tad long winded.