Every comment on this video: “Where’s the (insert either rare one off or wrong year span engine here)?” My question is: Where’s the Pontiac 301 dude? This test is bogus unsubscribed worst entertainment video ever
Where’s the Buick nailhead or Pontiac super duty or ford flathead or big block Packard! I’m so angry at you for not putting these totally weird engines that nobody builds on the dyno!
Lucore Auto and LucoreRacing admittedly the nailhead is a great engine. Have a 401 in my 66 Electra and that thing gives me perspective on these big blocks in that all of them were made for different purposes. The nailhead and the big block Buick being built for low, effortless torque for a quiet, luxurious ride and not much else. I mean 6000 rpm with stock bottom end and you have a grenade waiting to go off, whereas the big block Chevrolet was designed for nascar to an extent lol. Makes me wonder why people wanna say which is best when these engines all come from car companies having different needs for an engine.
Lucore Auto and LucoreRacing plus all of the people that shout about these niche engines miss the point. A nailhead is a wrong generation engine compared to all the big blocks you have in this video. It’s older 1950’s technology whereas all the big blocks in your video were all contemporaries. Plus I’ve seen requests for ultra rare engines like side oilers and other strange one off things like they’re part of the argument at all lol. You’re not picking up a super cobra jet in a junkyard.
@@LucoreAuto lol, ok. Good vid though. As you know, it doesn't matter how hard you try at parity, somebody's going to complain that well, you should've done this with the Mopar, or its not fair you did this with the poncho ect, ect. I'm admittedly a big block Chevrolet guy but have respect for all of them as they all have their good points and bad ones if you are honest with yourself. The trick is to know your chosen engine family very well and know what parts combinations work well together, even if factory and it can be quite amazing how much power any if them will make for not a huge $ outlay. I put together a 0.030 over 440 for a good friend of mine for his wheelin rig, 10.68 to 1 trw pistons, Edelbrock performer heads and intake, crane gold roller rockers, comp solid flat tappet cam, factory rods with arp bolts and balanced with a factory steel crank. It will wind 6500 against his rev limiter all day long and even doesn't mind an occasional 300 hit of gas. Makes incredible power even na on pump gas and is a reliable great engine.
@@johnasbach577 You are VERY correct Sir, unless we just had a spare $40,000 sitting around to build 4-5 identical big blocks across the brands you'll never get true Apples to Apples... to Apples and Apples ;) But, we tried! One of the things that made us want to put this video together for folks was to really put it all out there across a few of the major brands. We all have our loyalties but let's have an honest conversation about what they do what they can do and what they cost! The 451 Mopar I'll be honest will be a good motor for now in her '73 Charger but I think down the line with a head swap and a few more additions will become quite a monster. And with the prices Mopar folks can get GOOD aluminum heads?! Not fair! *cries the Pontiac guy*
@@LucoreAuto lol, yep. Very true that yes, anything can make gobs of power if you have unlimited amounts of $ to throw at it but most of us are not in that category and have to make due with what we can afford. But that's part of the fun in gaining knowledge of the parts readily available that work well together and those that will compromise your build. And really in this day and age none of us have any excuses in putting together something that is a poor build, or combination, because of so many before us who did all the hard work and research that is now at our fingertips with the click of a mouse. I think another thing that gets people in this game is the trap of unrealistic expectations of the combination that they have/can afford. As you know, every engine combination is a compromise, unfortunately lol!
Unfortunately we didn't have any customers currently building a 455 Buick BUT, we DO have a 455 Stage 1 we will be running on a chassis dyno in the next few days that should give us some numbers to compare with!
Removed a 455 Olds from a 1969 Delta and installed it in my 1972 Cutlass. Engine was all stock. Car would fry the tires for a half a block. Mega torque monster.
We pulled one from a 71 delta 88 and freshened it and put in a 79 trans am. The motor was in the junkyard compleatly fresh from someone else's with a cam lobe beat down. We cleaned and put new gaskets and a crane powermax cam and it would completely shred tires even with the single plain holley street dominator intake that was all wrong for the engine lol
These motors weren't GREAT at making gobs of power into the higher revs, OR getting very good or even kind of good fuel economy... BUT they were GREAT at making lots of low end low RPM piles of tire melting torque. All of these motors are making north of 350+ torque at 2,000 RPM which is more than enough to break traction on anything but some serious sticky tires.
Alright we'll forgive you the putting an Olds in a TransAm but you're on shaky ground there Andy! ;) The old days of being able to find these things by the dozens sitting around in junk yards just waiting to be reborn are gone unfortunately but there are LOT of tales like this! Go get motor from yard, spend a couple hundred bucks fixing things, drop into smaller/lighter chassis, and run 11s! ;)
It really REALLY is. Especially if you go the aluminum head route you're there in no time. But, when I pop the hood of an old classic Pontiac I want to see a light blue Poncho motor staring back at me!
I'm 60 now, love these video's full of information to questions we had when we were younger. I am am a Pontiac fan since about 11 years old. This video is full of information for young guys wanting to build a motor. An awesome comparison and know you can pretty much build any motor. So just have fun.
I bet that Olds would’ve topped 500ftlbs with a dual plane. Cool video. I’m an Olds guy but those Mopars are growing on me! They sound incredible and have just a ton of potential.
We talked about that quite a bit afterwards, a lot of "what if" scenarios. The Olds definitely had some power left in the tank with a few small things changed, obviously so did the Mopar. It can be a little maddening :) At the end of the day though in a cruising fun car do any of them REALLY need 500+ torque? Street tires already hate how they get treated ;)
@Dave Micolichek your Sir, have a VERY serious case of Big Block Addiction! Sounds like you certainly have some fun with your toys too, much better way to enjoy them than just sitting in the garage
We are actually actively searching for a 460 to build since so many people have asked for it. While they have tons of potential we honestly don't have many BBF powered hot rods that run around the Central Ohio area. Over the entire 3+ years we did these 4 motors we had not 1 BBF customer needing a rebuild. But since so many people are asking for it... we're hunting for one ;)
As a Pontiac guy myself, I was VERY pleased with the sounds that thing makes and the numbers it made. Unfortunately, that Pontiac tax is REAL! Really looking forward to having it in the car and seeing how it actually performs.
I have an ex-brother-in-law whom him and his father ran a salvage yard. They hauling in a four door Pontiac with what looked like a plain Jane 400 small block. It had a two barrel on it. Somebody had to been building a sleeper and either their old lady or some idiot decided it was time it got towed. But it would rip them loose only at half throttle. 🔥
I love the oldsmobile, I have a 70 455, nobody i know has had any luck with the tourqer intake on BB olds, seams to like a performer duel plane, or offenhauser portosonic single plane, Victor's have also had some success with solid numbers, thankyou for the review.
It would honestly have been nice to have a Performer on the Olds compared to the Torker, it doesn't seem to have really done any favors for it. With the power levels and RPM levels we are running on these motors, it's hard to beat the performance and driveability of a good duel plane. Thanks for the view and comment, hope you enjoyed!
This was a GREAT shootout, thank you! I had my Olds 455 gone through and balanced about 30 years ago, cost was about $1500 including a core b/c my block and heads were toast, unfortunately. Probably have over 200 Pulls on it now and maybe 50 hours, runs like a top with a Thermoquad on top. I'm gonna go out and hug it now, lol.
Prices have gone up a bit on these things over the past 30 years for sure! ;) Thanks for the view and comment, we are glad to finally have gotten this video together and tried to be as honest and up front as we could be about the strengths and details of each build. We know we won't probably be making people change teams, but at least maybe they'll learn a little bit more about "The Other Guys"!
My Olds moto was toast I had work done on it lot of work cross drilling for oil aline honed & bore decking I did the port and polish before the motor went out for work same with block work.. de-burr all the casting flashing in center Gally oil restrictors valve rotators installed ran like a bat out of hell...over 500 h.p. but when I built my Olds the machine work and assembly cost me $3,600. Back in 1990
@@peterrivney552 I go pretty easy on mine actually, WOT pulls are maybe 10 sec. and I keep it under 4500 most of the time. Probably why it's been trouble free. I'm not sure if the machinist cleaned up drainbacks, no doubt flow restrictors weren't done. It's a pulling HOSS though, I don't consider or treat it like a race engine.
@@harleytrott2335 I hope it's in good shape, I keep the revs to around 4500 to make sure there's enough oil in my 7qt pan. If you rebuild it, try to open up the drainback holes in the heads. I didn't know about this when I had mine rebuilt and there's a couple times when I think oil pressure began to fade. My solution has been to keep the oil level to top of dipstick mark and keep the revs reasonable. Does yours have a th400 or is it a manual trans?
Pontiac was an in between a small block & big block Chevy. The great thing about Pontiac that a 326 cu & a 455 the block has the same dimensions on the outside. That's the beauty of Pontiac. You can't do that with Buick or Olds. But there also great motors just like Mopar & Ford.
@@fireballrobbie1744 definitely one of the more interesting parts of Pontiac design. Though also makes it hard ti tell exactly what you have unless you crawl under and look at the block stamp. Ask me if I've ever been screwed by THAT! ;)
Technically, Pontiac wasn't really a small block either. They designed the engine very well from the start, to go from 262 ci all the way to 455 ci, with small displacement having a lower deck height and larger displacement having higher deck height, the Pontiac V8 qualifies as both. Really, the only drawback is the head design, but most engines were using wedge heads at the time, and they are one of the better wedge heads of the period.
It's hard to witness the dramatic emotions of some people here. My goodness. You cannot even compare 4 big block engines without some people pining over their preferences being left out and practically crying on their monitors about it. We're on a big block musclecar guy video where some can't hide their inner child. I felt that Lucore Auto and LucoreRacing did an exceptional job here to detail these intricacies and specifics. Highly educational. It was worth the three years in the making. Thank you.
Pontiac didnt make a big block or a small block. They're all the same size. Should of called it big cubes showdown. Great video! Thanks for the content
Yes yes we Pontiac folks always bring this up ;) Unfortunately if we want to play in a class with others, we have to sign up for the Big Block Class so that's just the rules we went with! :) Glad you enjoyed the video and we very much appreciate the view! We'll have the 455 Buick Stage 1 on a dyno here soon as well so we can let the OTHER member of the BOP family shine!
@@marioncobaretti2280 as Poncho folks we ALWAYS have to bring it up on conversation, it's like our secret club handshake. If you don't know, then you aren't REALLY a Pontiac person ;)
@@LucoreAuto The 455 Pontiac has more similarity to the 400 Chevy small block than to a big block Chevy. Canted valves and worked heads on a blueprinted crate motor is not fair on a dyno, but is much more fair comparing them going down the street 1/4 mile. I would rather you had taken a 400 RA IV or II if it was going to be a dyno evaluation.
I have a 455 in a jet boat. It’s freshly mildly built. The old one made great power despite having a oil pan full of metal chips and lots of other problems. Whole cost for rebuilding to about 400 hp was 3,000. Pretty cheap.
@@martywennihan5572 I have a 70 sidewinder jetboat....455 ...I run it at 5500 all day long..after I setup the crankcase scavenging system..does not use oil..does not smoke..msd ignition is set to redline at 5500... Berkeley 12jg pump.. AA impeller..place diverter..Holley 850 DP. Torquer intake...I've run this engine for 5 years..no problems...
You DO rapidly get into a conversation of how much power can you actually use, and especially with a street tire 😉 There's most certainly a value to "smiles per gallon"!
The 425 Olds is a way better engine than the 455. The 455 like the 68-69 400 is under square and a wheezy up on top. The 65-67 400-425 ( over square) were awesome runners and steel cranks.
I absolutely am a Pontiac guy tried and true also! My 64 GTO 389 with 421 tri-power heads on it is almost unbeatable in a quarter mile all bone stock motor with 390 rear limited slip and a m22 Rock crusher putting it to the back it basically pulls the tires off the ground when you hit second gear.. I am starting to like your sessions more and more as I watch them, I also messed with AMC AMX's of the 1970 Donahue Special type with 390 ci. 4 spd, & up to 3 second gen Javelins 2 being AMX's, one with a 360 a 72 model with a Pierre cardan rainbow interior and a 74 AMX 401 ci. with the same interiors. All of these AMC's would pull your face plum off out of the hole. But still I,,, being a poncho guy, had more fun and raced more Kawasaki's and won with my pure poncho 72 Formula 400/400 THM/3:08 posi. running 12:1 #16 head's milled 0.060 thsds... Had to run 101 octane,of course.. it was one bad black bird. Can't wait to see your LeMans when you can actually get both tires to hook up, at the track!!! Love you guys you crack me up!! You remind me of the good old days. Stay Greasy, I'll be watching!
Unfortunately we literally don't have a SINGLE customer in the past 4 years that's built or worked on a 460 Ford or we absolutely would have included that! We'll keep an eye out though for one to show off in the future :)
@@droppedf100 oddly we really don't. We do a TON of classic work but can count the number of BBF powered vehicles on one hand. Just not a very popular power plant for Central Ohio hotrods I guess :(
Lucore Auto and LucoreRacing too bad. I just put together a std. 2 bolt block, 521 cubes, 290 TFS heads, 600 lift flat tappet cam. An easy 550 crank hp for $5k.
What about the ford 460? I think it it easily the best. I have one sitting in my garage....I don't know how to get it to your dyno, but I would let you run it .Dove heads with port work anyone can do, and stock valves reground, .040 over bored block so something like 472cid, comp cams extreme 262 kit . stock rods with arp bolts , but it is zero decked(For quench) and 10.0 compression. You can run a bit more compression on 91 when you have quench right, and of course that is just static compression, but the cam timing events keep it on the higher side for the dynamic compression also.I had a 12.5 compression 427 bbc with more cam and I think I would take the ford over it. That said the ford was a better thought out build. Stall converter stall speed, gearing in the rear to tire size and you're around 50 cid more.I guess part of what I'm trying to preach is set up costs as well. Big dyno numbers are just that...The 427 was in a fairly heavy car, but had 3:00 gears , and despite the claimed stall converter rating it wasn't enough.The 460 based was in a heavier car 3:90 gears, and based off cam no need to think about the stall converter. Both cars had enough tire not to spin( slicks and drag radials) and yet both ran near identical times. Despite the gearing the advantage the chevy was turbo 350 and 10 bolt rear end, while the ford was c6 and 9 bolt rear end, wait what ...That's right the Ford was heavier and had more frictional drive train loss and was in a heavier car, and should have been making 50 to 100 less horsepower than the 427, but near the same outcome, and the ford didn't need some race gas
We are hunting down a early gen 460 to build since so many people have mentioned it and asked for it. Unfortunately they just aren't all that easy to scavenge up around Central Ohio for some reason. They definitely were built as low end torque machines from the factory and can for sure be built into a monster able to contented with ANY of these 4 so we agree, it needs to be built tested and talked about! No idea what we'll actually put the 460 in once it's built... but build it first then we'll figure that out ;)
Glad you liked it. We DID test a Buick 455 right after this however it was alresdy in a Buick GS. Should be able to find it in our stuff on here. It did... well 😀
The 451 and 511 B versions I have been building since I was 15 for my father . Idles nice but listening to it ramp up I can hear the tension it has then the fatal decrease of rpm. Those heads weren’t the issue , the springs certainly are. Stage V heads would be phenomenal but unnecessary, needing a little massaging , but yes could have suffered some . There a lot of options, knowing especially having built F.A.S.T racing engines in the past , if you slapped on a set of closed chamber heads (properly with matching springs and of which the quench area of those Icon pistons were developed for ) would bring you over 500 hp and even greater than 500lbs of torque. I would love to have that engine in my hands . I have something similar, with a TM6 manifold, closed chamber and it’s pissing all over the numbers of that 454. Not bragging , just touching base for anyone wanting to build one and display greater what that engine is capable of . My 511 version is over 700 hp.
Definitely appreciate the comment and Mopar knowledge, hopefully you've watched the more recent videos on the 451 Mopar as some of these issues were sorted out. Unfortunately it was definitely hobbled in the Big Blow Wars contest!
And the Mopar is much easier to work on and more durable than the GM stuff. Shaft rockers, dry intake, external oil pump, 2 piece water pump/housing, factory windage tray, distributor up front...
That olds made decent power considering the junk speed pro pistons with high tension rings. Those speedmaster heads actually cc out at 84. With those slugs and a felpro head gasket, you would be lucky to hit 9:1. Left an easy (and cheap) 100hp in the olds. Needs a set of srp or cp bulltet pistons (not $$). They're are many stock olds heads that flow better than the speedmaster so don't consider that an advantage lol.
You are definitely understanding what I was trying to get across in the video that the speedmaster heads weren't doing this thing any major favors. Aside from weighing less and handling heat better, they really are no better than a GOOD cast iron Olds head. But we would have had more money on buying a good set of Olds heads having them rebuilt and ready to run than what we had in the Speedmasters so... it is what it is. There's definitely some power left in that Olds for sure, as honestly there is across the board. None of these were really built for big power numbers more of a "what does stock stuff in stock form make". A little bit of port work on those heads, bumping the compression up, better pistons, a better intake, and that Olds would have certainly seen a serious bump in power BUT... that would be a different episode ;) Plus, when you start making considerably more power up front, you've got to upgrade everything in the middle and out back or things go BOOM! :) Hopefully you enjoyed the video, we'll do our best to keep more of this kind of content coming!
I have wanted to Make many comments on the video. As having built all of these engines and many more. I would agree with the power and part used on the Olds. But as this video is set up, horsepower on a budget build. I would say it was pretty good. I would agree that there are much beer parts that would build more power, but would cost a lot more. The guy got a great find on this engine and is a decent build for the street.
Built 505 Pontiac pump gas motor, made 860 hp, but could’ve built BBC 1050 hp pump gas motor for 1/2 then Pontiac. You have to be a diehard Pontiac guy to spend almost twice as much and make 200 less hp. Its in Pro Street 70 GTO.
Yeahhhh that's just the price you pay to be a part of the Cool Kids Pontiac world ;) BUT, it's great to see something that's not a BBC/SBC when you pop the hood of a hotrod.
I built my 400 Pontiac out of my 1967 Pontic 400 with a ram air 5 cam put three deuce with a three two barrel carbs and drill all jet to one quarter inch my 67 heads were milled so far I was told that’s it for these heads so I port matched intakes and exhaust by using machinery blueing and it would break a set of 50s loose at 130 mph
Found the channel by accident - I was quite impressed by the even-handed evaluation. I'm a Mopar fan (due to an incident with a 90 000 mile "badly out of tune" 69 Charger 440 Magnum 40 years ago) but frankly I would be delighted with any of those engines.
Well welcome, glad you enjoyed the video! We tried to be as fair and honest as we could be, any time you have 4 big brands battling it out there's always plenty of mud slinging! As a Mopar guy, is the 451 you had heard much of anything about? Seems like it was more of an oldschool setup than what people see these days. If you are interested btw, we have the entire build up of that motor here on our channel in the Momma's Mopar playlist. Welcome aboard!
There's some stroker kits for the mopar 400 that makes it a 512, you don't have to grind down a 440 crank, they bolt right in and run great, them 400s got that huge bore so fitting cubes in them are pretty easy nowdays
There are for sure a TON of options for stroker kits on both the B and RB series Mopar motors. In this case we were aiming to keep it as close to the other motors as possible for the purposes of this video. The NEXT one we build will likely be with an aftermarket rotating assembly somewhere in the 500 cubic inches or so. That and get rid of these crappy cast iron heads!
@@LucoreAuto I bought this car actually completed and I just went through the binder that came with it. The block was bored 30 over. These are the orginal heads from the 69 455 ported and polished. Previous owner did a lot to this car. Th350 trans with kick down delete. I hate the rear gearing though since no overdrive he placed the rears at 2.78. I also just completed a 87 grandnational. stock rotating assembly. Te 60 turbo, rebuilt 200r4 trans with extra gears in 3 and 4th gears. alcohol injection, 60lb injectors, new valve springs, 3inch down pipe, cat replaced with test pipe, 2.5 pypes exhaust, hotwire fuel pump, fuel pressure regulator. Low 12s to high eleven with bost at 20psi. A mild build. Next up 1992 gmc typhoon. Already built but having problems with the atr pitbull chip. Its either the chip or an electric issue as the 4.3 turbo charged are known yo have electric systems issues. i replacement the ignition control module ran great for 1 month and then hard starting, then no starting. I spend an ungodly amount of money on the GN. I hope the typhoon is more forgivening.
Thank you we tried hard to make this as honest and upfront as we could! Really love how the Mopar looks in its current paint scheme and it's going to looks AWESOME under the hood of her Charger for sure! There are a lot of things ahead for this 451 not too far down the road so we'll try to do right by you Mopar guys!
@@jez_stephensanotherapex5921 we're actually trying to hunt down a project to do a 460 Ford in, oddly they just aren't very popular for hot rod people around here.
Props to that big Indian. Didn't take much to wake those things right up. I had a 1974 Formula 455. 250 net hp. Did a full rebuild of that thing and it really carried the mail afterward. Mild cam with a set of cleaned up #13 heads to bring up the compression ratio and increase valve size. 13.02 on street tires while spinning them through 60ft. Daily driver with some serious giddy-up.
I'm rooting for the Pontiac....im a Chevy guy now but my first hot rod had a Pontiac 400....so I have have a soft spot for good running Pontiac Motors.
We'll actually be starting a 400 Pontiac build here at the end of the year, need a new heart for a '68 LeMans project. The 400 is THE motor of choice to build from these days for Poncho people.
Thank you so much for this HONEST video that wasn't slanted to one side. I'm a diehard MOPAR man so I was happy to see the 451 build. I have an all stock, never restored 1974 Charger SE with a 400 4bbl in it. You gave me some pretty good ideas to think about...🤔🤔😎💯
Well thank you for the comment Sir, very glad you enjoyed the video and hopefully learned a thing or two! We tried to be as honest and up front as we could be about each of the builds, we all have our favorites of course so it's hard to be completely impartial. That 451 Mopar setup is a really good package and with a decent set of aluminum heads on it...yeah we'll see not too far down the road I'm sure ;)
Here we go again, big block Pontiac, come-on now. External block dimensions the same. The 301 had 3/4" shorter deck height than the 326,350,389,400.421,428 and455.. Their is no small block/ big block, there is a small journal/large journal blocks. The heads will all bolt on, there's oiling issues on early poncho, where the top end gets oiling through block and heads,oil ports instead of the lifters and push rods. But as far as big/small blocks, I don't see it, just FYI...🤔👍
Thank you! We tried our best to make them semi comparable and to be as above board as possible with what wasn't. Unfortunately we don't make enough money off UA-cam to just build 5 identical big blocks for no reason 😉
The 400 into a 461 is a GREAT setup and honestly, even better than a 455 into the same displacement. There will be one of those in our very near future as well. Easily able to make this level of power or more.
Hey nothing wrong with being an Olds guy! The Mopar was definitely hobbled in this test, it had by far the worst heads and the machinist didn't really understand what the issues were. Had it been able to RPM properly and not hit valve float at 4900 RPM, it should have spun easily past 5500 and would have made a good deal more HP. Unfortunately, we'll have to fix that when it's IN the car
This was a great concept and I'd love to see someone do a proper 45X engine comparison test BOPC would be great to see. But frankly as soon as you put the roller cam in the chevy and the aluminum heads on the olds the validity of your test went out the window, All 4 engines should have been running the same spec cam and they should have all been running iron heads. The pontiac version of Those speedmaster heads have been shown to flow every bit as good as the edelbrocks out of the box so I assume the olds are they same.
I recently did a 400 block with a 4.25 stroke which made it a 512 cuin engine I use the 270 trick flow heads and a roller cam by Bullet that was around 265 duration at .050 lift, it was Dynoed at West Tech and it made 700 horsepower The stroker kit came from 440 source and it yielded 10.3 to 1 compression ratio, the dyno pull was done with 91 octane fuel
That's a VERY good and powerful setup and likely only cost a tiny bit more than the 451 Mopar in this video. The 400 is a VERY impressive platform for power without getting into anything super crazy or complicated. Did you record or detail your build anywhere? Who's stroker kit did you use?
Gotta say of all of these things that Mopar is the one we were impressed most with, and especially afterwards once we realized it was hobbled during the resting. Great setup for a motor
What I am building is a 470 RB MoPar 10.5:1 compression with Trick Flow heads, roller cam and a tunnel ram with 2 750 Mighty Demons. I have a JW 727reverse manual valve body trans, 8" 4000 stall JW converter and a 4.10 Dana 60. Just a street car :)
Lol yup sounds like just a mild mannered street car right there! Tach goes one way, fuel gauge goes the other, and a smile grows on your face rapidly! ;) The RB stuff topped with some good flowing heads is ALWAYS a great formula for major power. God be with those rear tires.
Big thumbs up. I really liked this BUT I hate the fact that you compared a 454 with High Performance heads to a Pontiac with poor flowing smog heads. Some BBC fanboys already have huge heads that don't need to get puffed up more by lopsided comparisons. The last BBC guy I raced talked all kinds of smack about my 400 Pontiac until I showed up to race him. He had more modifications than I had and better heads and he still refused to race me heads up without using his Nitrous. He still lost even with a 150 shot against my NA.
Well thanks for the view, the comment, and the thumbs up! Unfortunately this was a situation of "run what ya brung" as we had this 454 already going through a mild rebuild and figured it would be useful data. With that in mind, we still think the Poncho out punched the Chevy when you see what it did. Given the heads on the Chevy were considerably superior AND it had a roller setup... imagine what the Pontiac would do with those heads worked a little, and a full roller setup. Very likely would have not only out torqued the Chevy but out HP'd it as well. At least, that's our opinion :)
@@LucoreAuto, I totally understand. Let the BBC fanboys keep their superiority complex. I love to see them pay up every time they underestimate a Pontiac.
We built a 400 Mopar motor, early industrial casting, kept the stock crank and rods, put the Truck Flow top end and roller cam in it and made 425hp and 450lbft torque on an engine dyno. I'm building the same 455 that you did with the 4x heads and a comp hydraulic cam, good to see that pontiac torque doesn't disappoint. I've also got a 502 Chevy with 1998 L29 Vortec heads and sequential injection efi I'm building with L21 coil near plug(LS) coils, should be a torque monster for my airstream motorhome. The last is my blown 540 with AFR 357 heads and Holley dominator efi with coil neat plug ignition also, I'm glad to see this test because not everything needs to be a high end build like my 540 to be a great engine, and not everyone wants a late hemi or LS motor in their classic car, with that kind of torque out of any of these motors they are going to be a blast with the correct gearing, good job, keep them coming, let's see what that power equates to quarter mile times.
Thanks for the view and response, we are definitely happy with the results we got on these things and they'll be QUITE fun once we get the rides but together! One thing that often gets lost in the hotrodding motor is how much DO you need versus can you make? Could we have built each of these to make more than 500hp? Sure, there's plenty of options and examples out there. But at what cost? And what ELSE needs upgraded to support that level of power? Before you know it the build has gone from a simple motor rebuild to an entire new car! ALL the power isn't ALWAYS the answer!
You mentioned the LS' - my brother has an '09 Pontiac G8 - 6l all aluminum LS in a mid-sized 4 door sedan. 365 hp stock, he has put on exhaust, cold air intake and a chip. He now figures he's pushing 400 hp. The car has 340 000 km on it (!) That's 210 000 miles. The other day he had it at 250 km/hour (155 mph) and it will throw you back in the seat easily. So, yeah, "everyone" is running an LS, but they are FUN.
Oh they are DEFINITELY capable motors for sure, and there's a reason they are pretty much the kings of builds these days. They take a ton of abuse and keep right on roaring. What's interesting is if you look at the dyno graph on that LS, typically it's MUCH different than old school muscle. They make similar numbers but usually a considerably different curve.
I have been into Pontiacs since the early 90's and built a few of them. But I also have Chevys and Mopars and now a stroker 351W. The older I get the more I love them all. You can never beat a Chevy for cheap power but the Mopar B and RB can make Big power relatively inexpensively. I seems you and I have arrived at similar conclusions. Great video. Thanks.
Thanks for the watch and comment, glad you enjoyed it! You are correct, there's a reason the BBC and SBC have ruled hotrodding for so long. Cheap easy available simple to make power. The Mopar stuff.. I see us dabbling a bit more into that down the line. This was a learning experience for us for sure, the NEXT motor for this thing will definitely be bigger AND better ;)
The 74 400 block is a better choice for a stroker the earlier block has stronger mains supports and you would make more power with the 400 heads with some minor port work 500 lb plus is easily achieved a set of trick flow or indy heads would put it in orbit stroker b engines have nearly insane power capability
There's definitely power left on the table in that Mopar once it swaps over to a good set of aluminum heads it'll be a whole new monster. For now though, it will be a HUGE change over the tired old 400 in there now! But, that old tired one will likely live again some day as a 499 ;)
Finally have a spare set of cast iron water-jacketed marine exhaust manifolds on their way for the Olds, have been searching for a pair for well over a decade now.
Hi! First of all,thank you for making a very fair and subjective comparison video between all these engines. Real world,real wallet costs and results are appreciated. Secondly, I'm building a '76 Trans Am with basically the same Poncho engine. Craigslist '76 Y4 code 455 bored .030 over,stock crank,forged pistons and rods,etc.,etc. I have installed the engine,did a proper break-in with plenty of zinc additive for the flat tappet RV cam and it's pretty stout. However,I'm running the big 124cc smog heads temporarily to make sure the bottom end was good to go. I'm about to change the heads out for a set of 1974 5C/4 93cc units(same valve sizes as 124cc) fresh from the machine shop with 3 angle valve job and light porting. I expect these heads to put my compression up to between about 9.2-9.5:1. Just curious as to the size (cc's) of the 6X heads you used so I can get an idea of what to expect after the head swap. Thanks!
@@jeffhartgers7284 Thank you--I appreciate it. I did the head swap since posting this comment,and I'm happy to say that the 93cc heads really woke that engine up. I also went with new pushrods and Comp Cams Roller tips with Polylocks. I wanted to go with a Jet Stage2 Quadrajet for carburation,but couldn't find what I wanted,so I stepped up to an Edelbrock 800 cfm carb with electric choke. All that,along with an Edelbrock Performer intake and Summit 2 1/2" exhaust is a strong combination for old school horsepower. I haven't dyno'd it yet,but seat-of-the-pants guesstimate is 420-440 HP at the crank.Love my big Poncho! Thanks again for the great video and info!
@Dave Micolichek I checked our Edelbrock Big Block heads and they were great. We port matched the intake to the heads and were done. Still never a good idea to install anything without a good inspection.
Unfortunately we didn't have one for building and testing purposes BUT, we will be testing a Buick 455 Stage 1 here shortly and will post it once we do!
A lot of people are running the 451 mopar setup at the local track. They are running aluminum heads and a lot of compression. They run really well. I run a 440 that we built in 98 when I just got out of high school. I ran out of money on the build, so I didn't get to do all the tricks I wanted too. As it is, it has 906 cast heads with 2.19 intake valves, not sure of the size of exhaust valves. The compression is around 10.1 with a small flat tappet lunati cam,stock duel plain intake and vacuum secondary 750 Holley and headers. I wanted to port a little on the heads and do a aluminum head, but the money ran out. With 4.56 gears and stock stall converter,she still kept up with my buddies small block Chevy strokers,that they spent a ton of more money than me.
It seems like there are quite a few 451s still running at tracks but they all seem to have been built YEARS ago like 80s and 90s, doesn't seem to be too popular for the modern hot rodder. Which, honestly makes sense, given how easily and cheaply you can pick up the 499 stroker kits. Your 440 even as it sits should be a serious bruiser and able to make gobs of power without spinning it up into the revs like your Chevy buddies likely are. Ideally we would have used a set of 906 heads but for the couple hundred dollars we would have spent on buying them, then rebuilding them, it just didn't make sense. This lil 451 will definitely see some additional upgrades in the not so distant future...the story isn't over yet!
Definitely keep an eye on the 451 Mopar build, there are some recent vidoes of it as we sort out more and more with that build and it's REALLY waking up now! Already starting to pencil in the next version of that build ;)
515 lbs of torque for the Pontiac! Awesome! And as the guy said, you can get a lot more HP and torque from the Pontiac with Edelbrock, roller lifters, rockers, RPM intake, and be prepared for tire ripping time. Believe me I know. But Pontiacs are expensive to build, believe me I know that too.
Thanks for the watch and cheering for team Poncho! We were definitely happy with the torque numbers it made, and making it so low in the rev range is going to be a BLAST! Well, the tires are going to hate it but we're going to love it :) As for upgrades beyond what it is... we'll see. Honestly this 455 will probably stay as is... there's a '68 LeMans 400 project coming up that will likely get a MUCH meaner motor! But that's for a future episode :)
You can almost never go wrong with a big block Chevy up front and a Ford 9 inch out back. Doesn't matter the platform it's almost always a great combo.
Interesting comparison, Thanks for doing it. Having said that I take issue with one of your conclusions, As a "Pontiac guy" myself I have to say there is no way that Olds parts are cheaper and or more readily available than Pontiac parts. There were literally millions of firebirds alone built with Pontiac engines, Never mind all the Lemans/GTO's Grand prix's Ventura's etc. Because there are so many of those F body's still out there the demand for Pontiac parts is still quite high and so WAY more stuff is available than for an Oldsmobile. Off the top of my head I can name 7 different companies just making cylinder heads for the Pontiac engine, and some have multiple variants. Butler even lists 5 different models of aftermarket block's! The same absolutely cannot be said of Oldsmobile, not by a longshot. In order of popularity and parts availability it would have to go Chevy, Mopar, Pontiac, and then Olds.
Here’s something most of y’all probably won’t believe. My mustang 2 has a high compression 2.8 lima 4 banger. Pumps out 280-300hp. Motor was originally a 2.5 for my families 150mph 2.5mod hydroplane. But once said class basically went away some years ago. Now. Motor sat in my barn until I came home from florida and found it was still there and the parents had gotten a 78 mustang 2 with a 2.3 lima. Took her out and replaced it with the all aluminum high compression motor!
I have to admit a lot of the info went over my head but what I did understand was quite useful. Kinda figured the Chevy would be the hands down winner but I wont lie, I was rooting for the Mopar. =) Speaking of, I had *zero* clue you could make a 499 out of a 400, Hell I had never even heard of one. Hope y'all do one someday because I would love to see what kind of power that makes and what kind of reliability it would have.
Yeah being totally honest we had no idea there was so much potential in those "Junk smog" motors either. The old motor coming out of her car now will very likely come back to life with a 499 stroker kit in it... for... something. That 451 isn't done impressing yet there's a decent chance it goes back on an engine dyno for some improvements to the valve train which SHOULD allow it to RPM better
@@LucoreAuto I caught the valve float issue you were having there, heard it's a fairly common problem with some Mopar engines but I don't know the fix for it, wish I did. I do seem to recall a 360 that had the same problem and a Hi rise intake was at least part of the solution but that was 20 some years back... Let me see if I got this right... she has a 2nd 400 that yer going to (eventually) do the 499 kit on? Or when she outgrows the 451 do the kit? As I have mentioned I'm a hack mechanic at best (give me a proper manual and im good otherwise its the Braveheart scene with the crazed Irishman: 'The good Lord says yer fooked laddie!' and tools go airborne) but if she is already planning better aluminum heads wont she have to upgrade the valve train as well? And would that not likely solve the float issue? Asking because im curious if going that route might not save a bit of cash over tiring to fix the valve float problem in the long term.
Thanks Mike! We for sure had some surprises testing all these things. The Olds and Pontiac coming in with VERY similar peak HP numbers was quite interesting, especially considered the Torker vs Performer
For a mild big block, I'd go Buick - dat thin wall casting is light, light, light. AL heads, AL intake, roller cam and you have a mild big block that can't be beat in terms of size+weight+power.
The way this water pump is indexed it actually CAN'T be on the bottom, but typically speaking yes you are absolutely correct. There's a little shelf on the pump to move the fluid away from the belts instead of it falling straight down.
The LS6 is a factory high performance motor with a steel crank, rods, higher flow heads and bigger cam. They came in Corvettes and SS Chevelles and SS Camaros. The three other engines are really not comparable. A fairer comparison for Pontiac would be a Ram Air IV, a 455 HO or 455 SD motor. For Buick a 1970 455 Stage 1. For Oldsmobile, a rocket 455 would be a good candidate and for Mopar, a stroked 440. Just some thoughts.
So basically what this proves is that if you use the right parts for what you need for your build parameters you will make a lot of usable power no matter what engine you choose. The better it breathes the more power you make, it's all about where you need the power, what RPM range. I think a good Mopar 440 will be better than an Olds or Pontiac and cheaper to build per HP.
There are definitely some interesting lessons to learn here, at least we think so. A 440 is definitely a capable platform, and a lot of the same pieces we used on this motor would be similar to what that would be using. Two of the big benefits for us doing this with a 400 versus a 440 are the lack of many people actually SHOWING this kind of build, and the reduced rotating mass SHOULD let it rev further and faster than a similar displacement 440.
Whats better I think depends on what it's going in to. Any of these engines can be built enough to fry the tires on the street. If you have a 2 door muscle car and you can't afford to adequately build the stock engine, sell it to someone who can. For 40 years I've been watching people putting Chevy 350's or other blocks into Pontiacs because it's cheaper, and it takes a little knowledge to build a stock Pontiac correctly. But now we have Butlers and others and many aftermarket parts so there is no excuse now :)
yeah good luck finding them. I had a 1972 years ago It had some good get up and go for the tank it was in. I wanted to swap it into my Monte Carlo, but didn't have the skills at the time.
What do you recommend for a 427 11-1 pistons and a muther thumper hydrollic roller cam big block for aftermarket heads for street/ strip auto shows should I go with rectangular port or oval port
It certainly sounds good, and I can't WAIT to get it back in the '70 LeMans to hear it rumbling through some pipes! Non-Car people just don't get it, sound is IMPORTANT!
We Mopar guys use to put a 440 crank in the larger bore 400 block netting a 451 , Netting over 500ft lbs of torque " and pulled a 3800 lb car into the 12's 💥
I would have liked to see a Ford 460 in this comparison. I assume the opportunity to do this comparison just happened to come up with those particular engines being built and ready for dyno at the same time. Great video.
You are pretty much spot on with this, we just happened to have multiple parallel projects moving forward at the same time with very similar builds. Unfortunate the Big Block Ford scene just isn't a popular option for hot rodding these days, at least not around us. We may still be able to eventually get our hands on one and move a build forward but... we'll see. Actually DO need to make another followup with this though to address things with the Mopar.
We tested one on a chassis dyno right after this, just didn't have one out of a car to include in a head to head engine dyno contest. Definitely give that a watch!
I was a machinist @ Total Automotive Engineering in Detroit Mi. from 1994 until 2002 and we had an employee racing a 500+ in 440 running iron heads and he dyno'd over 600 hp. And a 400 Pontiac we did for a fellow employee, we got 560 lbs/ft off torque and 400 hp. (at only 2800 rpm it made 463 lbs ft of torque!)
Eventually this 455 MAY wear a set of heads from Butler or Kaufman.. it doesn't really NEED them but would certainly improve performance even more. Full disclosure there's a '68 LeMans waiting in the wings for a 400-461 stroker setup that will be much more a race car... you'll see in upcoming videos :)
Really miss my 2 455 Pontiac motors. I think about em all the time. I sold my trans am and all my Pontiac stuff around 2009 and it seems like right after that the prices skyrocketed on them. Now I have a factory yellow 78 Z28 California car with a 327 someone swapped in. It run really reliable but will not shred tires from a roll like the Pontiacs.😐 live and learn I guess
@@midsouth2strokes185 they definitely have gone up in value over the past few years as it becomes harder and harder to find an early generation buildable 455! Although the lack of good 455 cores has lead to some really great builds out of the 400s that are as strong if not stronger. Smaller main journal size and you can get similar displacement for not a lot of work, and off the shelf parts! Hopefully you are still enjoying your Z28, definitely a great car BUT... totally different kind of tire melter compared to the Big Ole Pontiac torque factory!
Three displacements were available during production: 401 cu in (6.6 L), 477 cu in (7.8 L) and 534 cu in (8.8 L); but however large, the 534 was very much smaller than the 1,100-cubic-inch (18.0 L) Ford GAA all aluminum 32 valve DOHC V8 (introduced during WW2), which was the largest displacement gasoline engine ever ...
Good video. I appreciate your attempt at a true apples to apples comparison. The horsepower, and torque numbers come in pretty much where I expected. I was certain the Pontiac would edge out the competition in Torque. No surprise the Chevy had peak horsepower. The flow capabilities of the big block Chevy heads are in another world, in comparison to the other engines. The Pontiac induction system was very well suited to the engine. I feel the Oldsmobile would have benefited from a dual plane intake. To be honest a factory cast iron intake ( non EGR ) is hard to beat on a Oldsmobile. I was disappointed in the Mopar. First I would like to have seen you test a stock stroke 440. You did the Mopar no favors with those cylinder heads. Better ( 915. or 906 ) heads would have yielded slightly better results. The real issue was the valve float. I was expecting 440 H P , and 495 torque from the Mopar. Again good video, reminds people that on the street Torque is king
Thank you for the view and well thought out comment! Your thinking is definitely in line with ours, and quite honestly WE would love to see the Olds run on a different intake as well to see what difference it would make. Unfortunately, engine building and dyno time costs money! With the Mopar unfortunately it was a case of work with what we've got. There's NO doubt if we had a slightly better set of iron heads and got rid of the valve float ... with the extra breath and RPM it very likely would have been in at least 2nd place for horsepower. The question asked in the video is a serious one though. Would you? Would you spend $300 on a set of 906 heads, $1000-1200 having them built, and run them? Or spend essentially the same money for a GOOD set of aluminum heads that are in every way superior?
@@LucoreAuto Thank you for your response. I completely understand, the constraints of time, and money. I also agree, on the big block Mopar. Unless you are doing a real " low budget " build, or a " correct " restoration. There is really no reason to not spring for aftermarket aluminum heads. They are superior in every way. The Oldsmobile, and Pontiac aluminum heads are a improvement over stock, but not a huge difference in flow, big difference in weight.There is soooo much that can be done with the Pontiac heads. Your test just scratched the surface. The main benefit of aluminum heads on the big block Chevrolet over factory big valve, rectangular port cylinder heads IS WEIGHT ! Bust a gut lifting those stock hunks of iron. Got a little long winded. Thanks
@@johnringel9892 i bowl ported my big block mopar motorhome heads, put new valves in, and had a valve job done for far less than 1k. i cant justify aluminum head prices, especially assembled ones that come with crap springs and full of metal.
@@frigglebiscuit7484 I recall, I did say something about using iron heads on a budget build. I am well acquainted with the fact that there are no " use them right out of the box " aluminum heads. My experience is they all need to be disassembled, and cleaned. Check the cave guides, maybe clean up the valve seating. Most you will want to invest in quality valve spring, locks, and retainers. Items you were going to replace anyway on the stock heads. With all of that said. When you look at all that you gain. I still maintain it makes sense to invest in aftermarket aluminum heads. That's my 2 cents. Thanks for your response
@@johnringel9892 there's a CHANCE we may pull the Poncho heads at some point and have them ported then run it again, just to see the TRUE difference in power compared to all the urban legends. We'll see. The Mopar... we'll never spend another dime on those things! For the $1300 we spent in fully rebuilding them, you can basically buy a set of good aluminums have them checked and replace the junk parts ... and only be a st a LITTLE more money for a FAR better head!
Thank you for the watch and comment! We hear them as well and wish we could have included them in this test/video unfortunately there just aren't many people building BBF projects these days. Most people building hot rods or muscle cars with for power are doing 351 or 302 power, or if they're looking for speed and modern go Coyote. We're certainly open to building one for a customer though, there's definitely power and data to be found!
you need to look at a olds 403. had one in a Buick regal when I wan in high school. about the time the mustang 5.0 came out was blowing there doors off .
We actually DO have a Buick 455 Stage 1 that's sitting in our '65 Buick GS, unfortunately that's a running and driving car it didn't make sense to pull the heart out of it just to test :( HOWEVER we WILL have that car on the chassis dyno here in a couple weeks which will absolutely film. Should be able to give us some strong numbers to compare with these 4.
@@AlexRamirez-lf1wj you're into Rivs huh!? Well definitely stay tuned, we actually have a couple of those sitting here waiting for their chance to show off ;) They are 63-64s and will be making appearances sometime in the very near future!
All take my Oldsmobile 1970 455 , if I remember right it had fr factory 510 ft lbs torque from factory I installed it in a 1966 cutlass S.....man I wish I still had it I drive a 1973 C10 truck now day's
Unfortunately the springs are being overpowered, definitely not an ideal situation. There's also an issue that the cheap SBI valves that were used in the rebuild are HEAVY compared to what would ideally be in there. Knowing the cast iron heads will only be on this motor for a reasonably short time as she gets used to the new setup and power levels, it just wasn't worth the money and frustration to keep fighting it.
The Chevy is certainly well known as being able knock on that 500 CI mark, and rather commonly in the hotrod world. Taking these B series Mopars up that far is something that's much less well known, just something we felt needed brought to peoples attention. But, hard to argue with the 50+ years of success the BBC has shown powering... well pretty much anything and everything!
@@frigglebiscuit7484 Indeed you can, the 440s have a CRAZY potential for strokers. Even these 400s are able to get to that 500ci mark which... you MAY see in a build in the not toooooo distant future ;)
Exactly the reason I love Mopars. Everyone had a Chevy. It’s like another Chevy nice. It’s kinda like rooting for the underdog? Nothing wrong with any of them. I actually have built them with my friends. I just don’t want the same thing as everyone else. To each his own.
Can we get a 472 or 500 caddy? The unsung/underdog of all big blocks. Stuffed afew into some camaros and firechickens over the years,made awesome drag cars. Haha
We are actually hunting for a buildable 500 Cadi since so many people have been asking for them, not quite as available as they used to be! Unfortunately lots of people were stuffing them into drag cars! ;) We may be setting up a 500 Cubic Inch battle for the somewhat near future sooooo we'll see what we can find!
Awesome..I can't wait. In the mid 70s to early 80s, people never thought about the big ol Cadillacs,mind you Cadillac never advertised their engine nunbers so it was always turned away... we used to go to wrecking yards and look for old caddy Limos or hearsts and rip out out the engines. Cheap horsepower and combined into lightweight car, toss on some headers and throw some timing at it, and off ya go. Fast, cheap horsepower back then, and the look on peoples faces when a crappy old Oldsmobile omega with a 472 caddy in it smokes their brand new Buick GN.. hahah
@@mikehunt9894 It's definitely the ultimate in large motor in a small package stuffing the powerplant out of a land barge into something.. well anything that wasn't barely able to fit in a garage. Unfortunately the days of easily finding those monsters are over so we are going to be a bit more out of pocket to pick one up. THEN we have to figure out what they heck to put it in!
Every comment on this video:
“Where’s the (insert either rare one off or wrong year span engine here)?”
My question is:
Where’s the Pontiac 301 dude? This test is bogus unsubscribed worst entertainment video ever
Where’s the Buick nailhead or Pontiac super duty or ford flathead or big block Packard! I’m so angry at you for not putting these totally weird engines that nobody builds on the dyno!
Hahaha, YOU win the comments section so far! Thank you for that :)
In all honesty... I hate to say this but there IS a 425 Nailhead in the works ;)
Lucore Auto and LucoreRacing admittedly the nailhead is a great engine. Have a 401 in my 66 Electra and that thing gives me perspective on these big blocks in that all of them were made for different purposes. The nailhead and the big block Buick being built for low, effortless torque for a quiet, luxurious ride and not much else. I mean 6000 rpm with stock bottom end and you have a grenade waiting to go off, whereas the big block Chevrolet was designed for nascar to an extent lol. Makes me wonder why people wanna say which is best when these engines all come from car companies having different needs for an engine.
Lucore Auto and LucoreRacing plus all of the people that shout about these niche engines miss the point. A nailhead is a wrong generation engine compared to all the big blocks you have in this video. It’s older 1950’s technology whereas all the big blocks in your video were all contemporaries. Plus I’ve seen requests for ultra rare engines like side oilers and other strange one off things like they’re part of the argument at all lol. You’re not picking up a super cobra jet in a junkyard.
I'm Rooting for the Pontiac!!!
All iron head shootout as the Oldsmobile sits there with a set of aluminum heads on it lol.
Hey there's close to Iron Headed! ;)
@@LucoreAuto lol, ok. Good vid though. As you know, it doesn't matter how hard you try at parity, somebody's going to complain that well, you should've done this with the Mopar, or its not fair you did this with the poncho ect, ect. I'm admittedly a big block Chevrolet guy but have respect for all of them as they all have their good points and bad ones if you are honest with yourself. The trick is to know your chosen engine family very well and know what parts combinations work well together, even if factory and it can be quite amazing how much power any if them will make for not a huge $ outlay. I put together a 0.030 over 440 for a good friend of mine for his wheelin rig, 10.68 to 1 trw pistons, Edelbrock performer heads and intake, crane gold roller rockers, comp solid flat tappet cam, factory rods with arp bolts and balanced with a factory steel crank. It will wind 6500 against his rev limiter all day long and even doesn't mind an occasional 300 hit of gas. Makes incredible power even na on pump gas and is a reliable great engine.
@@johnasbach577 You are VERY correct Sir, unless we just had a spare $40,000 sitting around to build 4-5 identical big blocks across the brands you'll never get true Apples to Apples... to Apples and Apples ;) But, we tried!
One of the things that made us want to put this video together for folks was to really put it all out there across a few of the major brands. We all have our loyalties but let's have an honest conversation about what they do what they can do and what they cost!
The 451 Mopar I'll be honest will be a good motor for now in her '73 Charger but I think down the line with a head swap and a few more additions will become quite a monster. And with the prices Mopar folks can get GOOD aluminum heads?! Not fair! *cries the Pontiac guy*
@@LucoreAuto lol, yep. Very true that yes, anything can make gobs of power if you have unlimited amounts of $ to throw at it but most of us are not in that category and have to make due with what we can afford. But that's part of the fun in gaining knowledge of the parts readily available that work well together and those that will compromise your build. And really in this day and age none of us have any excuses in putting together something that is a poor build, or combination, because of so many before us who did all the hard work and research that is now at our fingertips with the click of a mouse. I think another thing that gets people in this game is the trap of unrealistic expectations of the combination that they have/can afford. As you know, every engine combination is a compromise, unfortunately lol!
Well, keep at it, is nice to see info from honest fair minded people with no axe to grind and as a bonus we all learn a little something 👍👍!
What about the 455 Buick
Unfortunately we didn't have any customers currently building a 455 Buick BUT, we DO have a 455 Stage 1 we will be running on a chassis dyno in the next few days that should give us some numbers to compare with!
Was quickest from the factory
Jim Clarke yes it was I had 1970 Buick stage 1 with the 455 I really miss that car it was stolen back in 1995 I never seen it again 😫
How about a 421Pontiac Super Duty with dual 850 cfm Rochesters. And a mid rise intake with long tube headers ? Bootleggers deluxe baby!!!
@@walliehart5975 There is a YT video comparing a 405 HP 421 Pontiac to a 409HP 409 Chevy. Pontiac completely murders the Chevy on the dyno.
Removed a 455 Olds from a 1969 Delta and installed it in my 1972 Cutlass.
Engine was all stock.
Car would fry the tires for a half a block.
Mega torque monster.
We pulled one from a 71 delta 88 and freshened it and put in a 79 trans am. The motor was in the junkyard compleatly fresh from someone else's with a cam lobe beat down. We cleaned and put new gaskets and a crane powermax cam and it would completely shred tires even with the single plain holley street dominator intake that was all wrong for the engine lol
These motors weren't GREAT at making gobs of power into the higher revs, OR getting very good or even kind of good fuel economy... BUT they were GREAT at making lots of low end low RPM piles of tire melting torque. All of these motors are making north of 350+ torque at 2,000 RPM which is more than enough to break traction on anything but some serious sticky tires.
Alright we'll forgive you the putting an Olds in a TransAm but you're on shaky ground there Andy! ;) The old days of being able to find these things by the dozens sitting around in junk yards just waiting to be reborn are gone unfortunately but there are LOT of tales like this! Go get motor from yard, spend a couple hundred bucks fixing things, drop into smaller/lighter chassis, and run 11s! ;)
@@LucoreAuto well it's kinda forgivable if it came with an olds engine when new. Right? Lol
@@midsouth2strokes185 KINDA forgivable but still feels awkward!
I have a built Pontiac 455 in my Firebird and you're right, it's easy to be 10 to 15 k into it before you know it, but I wouldn't swap it for nothing.
It really REALLY is. Especially if you go the aluminum head route you're there in no time. But, when I pop the hood of an old classic Pontiac I want to see a light blue Poncho motor staring back at me!
I got over 10K in my 455 in my 73’ formula 455
I'm 60 now, love these video's full of information to questions we had when we were younger. I am am a Pontiac fan since about 11 years old. This video is full of information for young guys wanting to build a motor. An awesome comparison and know you can pretty much build any motor. So just have fun.
I bet that Olds would’ve topped 500ftlbs with a dual plane. Cool video. I’m an Olds guy but those Mopars are growing on me! They sound incredible and have just a ton of potential.
We talked about that quite a bit afterwards, a lot of "what if" scenarios. The Olds definitely had some power left in the tank with a few small things changed, obviously so did the Mopar.
It can be a little maddening :) At the end of the day though in a cruising fun car do any of them REALLY need 500+ torque? Street tires already hate how they get treated ;)
@Dave Micolichek oh we complete agree it's fun on the street :) Well, the tires don't really enjoy it and do a lot of complaining, but it's fun! ;)
@Dave Micolichek your Sir, have a VERY serious case of Big Block Addiction! Sounds like you certainly have some fun with your toys too, much better way to enjoy them than just sitting in the garage
@Dave Micolichek literally all you have to do is type "dyno explosion or failure" in the yt search bar to see plenty of proof.
Dave Micolichek can’t avoid the fact that he said 510 foot pounds with a 2 barrel like a Rochester 2g can even put out 300 lol
A big Block Ford would have been a nice addition. The 429/460 engines are pretty stout and have as much potential on a tight budget
We are actually actively searching for a 460 to build since so many people have asked for it. While they have tons of potential we honestly don't have many BBF powered hot rods that run around the Central Ohio area. Over the entire 3+ years we did these 4 motors we had not 1 BBF customer needing a rebuild. But since so many people are asking for it... we're hunting for one ;)
Boat anchors
@@stewpidasso8810 - didn’t the bbf dominate in NHRA and IHRA pro stock ? Wonder what that says about the other big blocks then. You clown
@@LucoreAuto if you're offering I can get you a 460 in a 19 foot jet boat. That's kind of a screwy hybrid application though.
BBF can easily hit 450 hp and 500 ft of torque….probably why the ford wasn’t used …would have spanked them all..lol
pontiac always growls different than other engines !!!
As a Pontiac guy myself, I was VERY pleased with the sounds that thing makes and the numbers it made. Unfortunately, that Pontiac tax is REAL!
Really looking forward to having it in the car and seeing how it actually performs.
Yessss sirrrr Pontiac all the way I think it’s obv that I’m a Pontiac guy😂😂
I have an ex-brother-in-law whom him and his father ran a salvage yard. They hauling in a four door Pontiac with what looked like a plain Jane 400 small block. It had a two barrel on it. Somebody had to been building a sleeper and either their old lady or some idiot decided it was time it got towed. But it would rip them loose only at half throttle. 🔥
As an oldsmobile guy, Olds always sound different then the rest.. that big bore, short stroke ftw.. lol
@@mikehunt9894 It's not about the size of the motor, but the power of the stroke! ;)
I love the oldsmobile, I have a 70 455, nobody i know has had any luck with the tourqer intake on BB olds, seams to like a performer duel plane, or offenhauser portosonic single plane, Victor's have also had some success with solid numbers, thankyou for the review.
It would honestly have been nice to have a Performer on the Olds compared to the Torker, it doesn't seem to have really done any favors for it. With the power levels and RPM levels we are running on these motors, it's hard to beat the performance and driveability of a good duel plane.
Thanks for the view and comment, hope you enjoyed!
This was a GREAT shootout, thank you!
I had my Olds 455 gone through and balanced about 30 years ago, cost was about $1500 including a core b/c my block and heads were toast, unfortunately. Probably have over 200 Pulls on it now and maybe 50 hours, runs like a top with a Thermoquad on top.
I'm gonna go out and hug it now, lol.
Prices have gone up a bit on these things over the past 30 years for sure! ;) Thanks for the view and comment, we are glad to finally have gotten this video together and tried to be as honest and up front as we could be about the strengths and details of each build. We know we won't probably be making people change teams, but at least maybe they'll learn a little bit more about "The Other Guys"!
My Olds moto was toast I had work done on it lot of work cross drilling for oil aline honed & bore decking I did the port and polish before the motor went out for work same with block work.. de-burr all the casting flashing in center Gally oil restrictors valve rotators installed ran like a bat out of hell...over 500 h.p. but when I built my Olds the machine work and assembly cost me $3,600. Back in 1990
@@peterrivney552 I go pretty easy on mine actually, WOT pulls are maybe 10 sec. and I keep it under 4500 most of the time. Probably why it's been trouble free.
I'm not sure if the machinist cleaned up drainbacks, no doubt flow restrictors weren't done. It's a pulling HOSS though, I don't consider or treat it like a race engine.
Picking up a 455 Oldsmobile engine in a 66 stepside chevy C10 this morning. Paid $1000 for it and the engine starts😊
@@harleytrott2335 I hope it's in good shape, I keep the revs to around 4500 to make sure there's enough oil in my 7qt pan. If you rebuild it, try to open up the drainback holes in the heads. I didn't know about this when I had mine rebuilt and there's a couple times when I think oil pressure began to fade. My solution has been to keep the oil level to top of dipstick mark and keep the revs reasonable.
Does yours have a th400 or is it a manual trans?
Technically, Pontiac wasn't really a big block.... They just have large same displacement..
Pontiac was an in between a small block & big block Chevy. The great thing about Pontiac that a 326 cu & a 455 the block has the same dimensions on the outside. That's the beauty of Pontiac. You can't do that with Buick or Olds. But there also great motors just like Mopar & Ford.
You are correct Mike, I didn't go into that on the video but figured it was still something fair to compare.
@@fireballrobbie1744 definitely one of the more interesting parts of Pontiac design. Though also makes it hard ti tell exactly what you have unless you crawl under and look at the block stamp. Ask me if I've ever been screwed by THAT! ;)
All Pontiac are big block, technically.
Technically, Pontiac wasn't really a small block either. They designed the engine very well from the start, to go from 262 ci all the way to 455 ci, with small displacement having a lower deck height and larger displacement having higher deck height, the Pontiac V8 qualifies as both. Really, the only drawback is the head design, but most engines were using wedge heads at the time, and they are one of the better wedge heads of the period.
It's hard to witness the dramatic emotions of some people here. My goodness. You cannot even compare 4 big block engines without some people pining over their preferences being left out and practically crying on their monitors about it. We're on a big block musclecar guy video where some can't hide their inner child.
I felt that Lucore Auto and LucoreRacing did an exceptional job here to detail these intricacies and specifics. Highly educational. It was worth the three years in the making. Thank you.
Pontiac didnt make a big block or a small block. They're all the same size. Should of called it big cubes showdown. Great video! Thanks for the content
Yes yes we Pontiac folks always bring this up ;) Unfortunately if we want to play in a class with others, we have to sign up for the Big Block Class so that's just the rules we went with! :)
Glad you enjoyed the video and we very much appreciate the view! We'll have the 455 Buick Stage 1 on a dyno here soon as well so we can let the OTHER member of the BOP family shine!
They sort of did, they used two different deck heights, but that's the only difference, so it doesn't really count.
dont need to be technical over crumbs
@@marioncobaretti2280 as Poncho folks we ALWAYS have to bring it up on conversation, it's like our secret club handshake. If you don't know, then you aren't REALLY a Pontiac person ;)
@@LucoreAuto The 455 Pontiac has more similarity to the 400 Chevy small block than to a big block Chevy. Canted valves and worked heads on a blueprinted crate motor is not fair on a dyno, but is much more fair comparing them going down the street 1/4 mile. I would rather you had taken a 400 RA IV or II if it was going to be a dyno evaluation.
I have a 455 in a jet boat. It’s freshly mildly built. The old one made great power despite having a oil pan full of metal chips and lots of other problems. Whole cost for rebuilding to about 400 hp was 3,000. Pretty cheap.
455 what? The advantage of this many cubes on making the quest for 400hp, just make it spin and breathe and it will get there :)
It’s a 455 olds
@@LucoreAuto 5500 to many rpms for a 455
Got it in boat keeps braking rods
@@martywennihan5572 I have a 70 sidewinder jetboat....455 ...I run it at 5500 all day long..after I setup the crankcase scavenging system..does not use oil..does not smoke..msd ignition is set to redline at 5500... Berkeley 12jg pump..
AA impeller..place diverter..Holley 850 DP.
Torquer intake...I've run this engine for 5 years..no problems...
I put a olds 455 into a 1966 cutlass 510 ft pounds torque from factory , couldn't keep back tires on her..... smile for days
You DO rapidly get into a conversation of how much power can you actually use, and especially with a street tire 😉
There's most certainly a value to "smiles per gallon"!
The 425 Olds is a way better engine than the 455. The 455 like the 68-69 400 is under square and a wheezy up on top. The 65-67 400-425 ( over square) were awesome runners and steel cranks.
Valid point! Especially with modern builds wanting to twist higher into the rev range versus low end torque monsters.
the 400 pontiacs are over square. 4.12''x3.75''
The bore on a stock Olds 455 is 4.125 with a 4.25 stroke. How is that not square???????
I absolutely am a Pontiac guy tried and true also! My 64 GTO 389 with 421 tri-power heads on it is almost unbeatable in a quarter mile all bone stock motor with 390 rear limited slip and a m22 Rock crusher putting it to the back it basically pulls the tires off the ground when you hit second gear.. I am starting to like your sessions more and more as I watch them,
I also messed with AMC AMX's
of the 1970 Donahue Special
type with 390 ci. 4 spd, & up to 3 second gen Javelins 2 being AMX's, one with a 360 a 72 model with a Pierre cardan rainbow interior and a 74 AMX 401 ci. with the same interiors. All of these AMC's would pull your face plum off out of the hole. But still I,,, being a poncho guy, had more fun and raced more Kawasaki's and won with my pure poncho 72 Formula 400/400 THM/3:08 posi. running 12:1 #16 head's milled 0.060 thsds... Had to run 101 octane,of course.. it was one bad black bird. Can't wait to see your LeMans when you can actually get both tires to hook up, at the track!!! Love you guys you crack me up!! You remind me of the good old days. Stay Greasy, I'll be watching!
What's about the 460 Ford engine?
Unfortunately we literally don't have a SINGLE customer in the past 4 years that's built or worked on a 460 Ford or we absolutely would have included that! We'll keep an eye out though for one to show off in the future :)
I was going to ask the same thing. I guess he doesn’t have many ford customers
@@droppedf100 oddly we really don't. We do a TON of classic work but can count the number of BBF powered vehicles on one hand. Just not a very popular power plant for Central Ohio hotrods I guess :(
Lucore Auto and LucoreRacing too bad. I just put together a std. 2 bolt block, 521 cubes, 290 TFS heads, 600 lift flat tappet cam. An easy 550 crank hp for $5k.
@@LucoreAuto Ofcourse U Guys Don't Have Any Ford Blocks There... Seems Like U Guys Just Work On Chevys.. No Ford Guy Would Want To Take It There lol
What about the ford 460? I think it it easily the best. I have one sitting in my garage....I don't know how to get it to your dyno, but I would let you run it .Dove heads with port work anyone can do, and stock valves reground, .040 over bored block so something like 472cid, comp cams extreme 262 kit . stock rods with arp bolts , but it is zero decked(For quench) and 10.0 compression. You can run a bit more compression on 91 when you have quench right, and of course that is just static compression, but the cam timing events keep it on the higher side for the dynamic compression also.I had a 12.5 compression 427 bbc with more cam and I think I would take the ford over it. That said the ford was a better thought out build. Stall converter stall speed, gearing in the rear to tire size and you're around 50 cid more.I guess part of what I'm trying to preach is set up costs as well. Big dyno numbers are just that...The 427 was in a fairly heavy car, but had 3:00 gears , and despite the claimed stall converter rating it wasn't enough.The 460 based was in a heavier car 3:90 gears, and based off cam no need to think about the stall converter. Both cars had enough tire not to spin( slicks and drag radials) and yet both ran near identical times. Despite the gearing the advantage the chevy was turbo 350 and 10 bolt rear end, while the ford was c6 and 9 bolt rear end, wait what ...That's right the Ford was heavier and had more frictional drive train loss and was in a heavier car, and should have been making 50 to 100 less horsepower than the 427, but near the same outcome, and the ford didn't need some race gas
We are hunting down a early gen 460 to build since so many people have mentioned it and asked for it. Unfortunately they just aren't all that easy to scavenge up around Central Ohio for some reason. They definitely were built as low end torque machines from the factory and can for sure be built into a monster able to contented with ANY of these 4 so we agree, it needs to be built tested and talked about! No idea what we'll actually put the 460 in once it's built... but build it first then we'll figure that out ;)
I'm late to the party, but really good shoot out! I was really hoping for a Buick 455, but I definitely appreciate what you have done.
Glad you liked it. We DID test a Buick 455 right after this however it was alresdy in a Buick GS. Should be able to find it in our stuff on here. It did... well 😀
The 451 and 511 B versions I have been building since I was 15 for my father .
Idles nice but listening to it ramp up I can hear the tension it has then the fatal decrease of rpm.
Those heads weren’t the issue , the springs certainly are.
Stage V heads would be phenomenal but unnecessary, needing a little massaging , but yes could have suffered some . There a lot of options, knowing especially having built F.A.S.T racing engines in the past , if you slapped on a set of closed chamber heads (properly with matching springs and of which the quench area of those Icon pistons were developed for ) would bring you over 500 hp and even greater than 500lbs of torque.
I would love to have that engine in my hands . I have something similar, with a TM6 manifold, closed chamber and it’s pissing all over the numbers of that 454.
Not bragging , just touching base for anyone wanting to build one and display greater what that engine is capable of . My 511 version is over 700 hp.
Definitely appreciate the comment and Mopar knowledge, hopefully you've watched the more recent videos on the 451 Mopar as some of these issues were sorted out. Unfortunately it was definitely hobbled in the Big Blow Wars contest!
And the Mopar is much easier to work on and more durable than the GM stuff. Shaft rockers, dry intake, external oil pump, 2 piece water pump/housing, factory windage tray, distributor up front...
That olds made decent power considering the junk speed pro pistons with high tension rings. Those speedmaster heads actually cc out at 84. With those slugs and a felpro head gasket, you would be lucky to hit 9:1. Left an easy (and cheap) 100hp in the olds. Needs a set of srp or cp bulltet pistons (not $$). They're are many stock olds heads that flow better than the speedmaster so don't consider that an advantage lol.
You are definitely understanding what I was trying to get across in the video that the speedmaster heads weren't doing this thing any major favors. Aside from weighing less and handling heat better, they really are no better than a GOOD cast iron Olds head. But we would have had more money on buying a good set of Olds heads having them rebuilt and ready to run than what we had in the Speedmasters so... it is what it is.
There's definitely some power left in that Olds for sure, as honestly there is across the board. None of these were really built for big power numbers more of a "what does stock stuff in stock form make". A little bit of port work on those heads, bumping the compression up, better pistons, a better intake, and that Olds would have certainly seen a serious bump in power BUT... that would be a different episode ;) Plus, when you start making considerably more power up front, you've got to upgrade everything in the middle and out back or things go BOOM! :)
Hopefully you enjoyed the video, we'll do our best to keep more of this kind of content coming!
The air flow of those heads may not have added 100 HP even with a compression ratio boost... but add some porting...
I have wanted to Make many comments on the video. As having built all of these engines and many more. I would agree with the power and part used on the Olds.
But as this video is set up, horsepower on a budget build. I would say it was pretty good.
I would agree that there are much beer parts that would build more power, but would cost a lot more.
The guy got a great find on this engine and is a decent build for the street.
a heads i'm having rebuilt right now
Pontiac is out of every comparison because its masterpiece :)
Rawr Poncho Power! :) Can't wait to get this thing back in the '70 and enjoy the difference! And then... start the '68 LeMans project! ;)
(Smile)
Built 505 Pontiac pump gas motor, made 860 hp, but could’ve built BBC 1050 hp pump gas motor for 1/2 then Pontiac. You have to be a diehard Pontiac guy to spend almost twice as much and make 200 less hp. Its in Pro Street 70 GTO.
Yeahhhh that's just the price you pay to be a part of the Cool Kids Pontiac world ;) BUT, it's great to see something that's not a BBC/SBC when you pop the hood of a hotrod.
I built my 400 Pontiac out of my 1967 Pontic 400 with a ram air 5 cam put three deuce with a three two barrel carbs and drill all jet to one quarter inch my 67 heads were milled so far I was told that’s it for these heads so I port matched intakes and exhaust by using machinery blueing and it would break a set of 50s loose at 130 mph
I had twin Olds 455s in my 32 foot Donzi, that puppy moved quite well
Big Block power did and still DOES power a TON of go fast boats. Low RPM torque is what boating is ALL about!
Thanks for the hard work like the shoot out and nice to see no losers! It all in what you prefer
Thanks for watching glad you enjoyed the video! There were no losers but some pretty interesting winners and results we think.
Excellent builds and comparison. Like Pontiac too but also really like the potential power/cost of the Mopar.
Found the channel by accident - I was quite impressed by the even-handed evaluation.
I'm a Mopar fan (due to an incident with a 90 000 mile "badly out of tune" 69 Charger 440 Magnum 40 years ago) but frankly I would be delighted with any of those engines.
Well welcome, glad you enjoyed the video! We tried to be as fair and honest as we could be, any time you have 4 big brands battling it out there's always plenty of mud slinging!
As a Mopar guy, is the 451 you had heard much of anything about? Seems like it was more of an oldschool setup than what people see these days. If you are interested btw, we have the entire build up of that motor here on our channel in the Momma's Mopar playlist. Welcome aboard!
You peaked my interest. Please tell me about this incident? lol
There's some stroker kits for the mopar 400 that makes it a 512, you don't have to grind down a 440 crank, they bolt right in and run great, them 400s got that huge bore so fitting cubes in them are pretty easy nowdays
There are for sure a TON of options for stroker kits on both the B and RB series Mopar motors. In this case we were aiming to keep it as close to the other motors as possible for the purposes of this video. The NEXT one we build will likely be with an aftermarket rotating assembly somewhere in the 500 cubic inches or so. That and get rid of these crappy cast iron heads!
Wow that Pontiac sounds like it would leave the ground ,I'm a Mopar and Pontiac man and that poncho sound was music!
I have a 442 tribute with a mondello roller rocker setup. Block is from a 1969 cutlass. 425hp and 518tq.
What did you do for heads? What did your displacement end up?
@@LucoreAuto I bought this car actually completed and I just went through the binder that came with it. The block was bored 30 over. These are the orginal heads from the 69 455 ported and polished. Previous owner did a lot to this car. Th350 trans with kick down delete. I hate the rear gearing though since no overdrive he placed the rears at 2.78. I also just completed a 87 grandnational. stock rotating assembly. Te 60 turbo, rebuilt 200r4 trans with extra gears in 3 and 4th gears. alcohol injection, 60lb injectors, new valve springs, 3inch down pipe, cat replaced with test pipe, 2.5 pypes exhaust, hotwire fuel pump, fuel pressure regulator. Low 12s to high eleven with bost at 20psi. A mild build. Next up 1992 gmc typhoon. Already built but having problems with the atr pitbull chip. Its either the chip or an electric issue as the 4.3 turbo charged are known yo have electric systems issues. i replacement the ignition control module ran great for 1 month and then hard starting, then no starting. I spend an ungodly amount of money on the GN. I hope the typhoon is more forgivening.
Most beautiful car in muscle car history
ty for an HONEST opinion and the mopar looks great in its plum suite
Thank you we tried hard to make this as honest and upfront as we could! Really love how the Mopar looks in its current paint scheme and it's going to looks AWESOME under the hood of her Charger for sure!
There are a lot of things ahead for this 451 not too far down the road so we'll try to do right by you Mopar guys!
Loved this, great work. Seemed as fair as y'all could practically make it. Thanks!
Oh, please add a 460 Ford.
Thank you we appreciate that! Couldn't make it perfectly apples to apples but this was about as close as we could get.
@@jez_stephensanotherapex5921 we're actually trying to hunt down a project to do a 460 Ford in, oddly they just aren't very popular for hot rod people around here.
Props to that big Indian. Didn't take much to wake those things right up. I had a 1974 Formula 455. 250 net hp. Did a full rebuild of that thing and it really carried the mail afterward. Mild cam with a set of cleaned up #13 heads to bring up the compression ratio and increase valve size. 13.02 on street tires while spinning them through 60ft. Daily driver with some serious giddy-up.
I'm rooting for the Pontiac....im a Chevy guy now but my first hot rod had a Pontiac 400....so I have have a soft spot for good running Pontiac Motors.
We'll actually be starting a 400 Pontiac build here at the end of the year, need a new heart for a '68 LeMans project. The 400 is THE motor of choice to build from these days for Poncho people.
Love your ideas and I like Pontiac and Mopars as well. Thanks for your information and testing on these engines
Thank you so much for this HONEST video that wasn't slanted to one side. I'm a diehard MOPAR man so I was happy to see the 451 build. I have an all stock, never restored 1974 Charger SE with a 400 4bbl in it. You gave me some pretty good ideas to think about...🤔🤔😎💯
Well thank you for the comment Sir, very glad you enjoyed the video and hopefully learned a thing or two! We tried to be as honest and up front as we could be about each of the builds, we all have our favorites of course so it's hard to be completely impartial. That 451 Mopar setup is a really good package and with a decent set of aluminum heads on it...yeah we'll see not too far down the road I'm sure ;)
Here we go again, big block Pontiac, come-on now. External block dimensions the same. The 301 had 3/4" shorter deck height than the 326,350,389,400.421,428 and455.. Their is no small block/ big block, there is a small journal/large journal blocks. The heads will all bolt on, there's oiling issues on early poncho, where the top end gets oiling through block and heads,oil ports instead of the lifters and push rods. But as far as big/small blocks, I don't see it, just FYI...🤔👍
Great video it's hard to have exactly the same parts nice to see close power between all the brands great video
Thank you! We tried our best to make them semi comparable and to be as above board as possible with what wasn't. Unfortunately we don't make enough money off UA-cam to just build 5 identical big blocks for no reason 😉
My 455 olds on my 69 442 none original motor with K heads ran like a dream. Had so much power and torq!
I built my 400 into a 461 stroker, very nice to see about what it may make. Very cool video !!
The 400 into a 461 is a GREAT setup and honestly, even better than a 455 into the same displacement. There will be one of those in our very near future as well. Easily able to make this level of power or more.
I am that 455 Olds guy.... but that Mopar had my attention... always loved the old Mopars
Hey nothing wrong with being an Olds guy! The Mopar was definitely hobbled in this test, it had by far the worst heads and the machinist didn't really understand what the issues were. Had it been able to RPM properly and not hit valve float at 4900 RPM, it should have spun easily past 5500 and would have made a good deal more HP. Unfortunately, we'll have to fix that when it's IN the car
This was a great concept and I'd love to see someone do a proper 45X engine comparison test BOPC would be great to see. But frankly as soon as you put the roller cam in the chevy and the aluminum heads on the olds the validity of your test went out the window, All 4 engines should have been running the same spec cam and they should have all been running iron heads. The pontiac version of Those speedmaster heads have been shown to flow every bit as good as the edelbrocks out of the box so I assume the olds are they same.
I recently did a 400 block with a 4.25 stroke which made it a 512 cuin engine I use the 270 trick flow heads and a roller cam by Bullet that was around 265 duration at .050 lift, it was Dynoed at West Tech and it made 700 horsepower
The stroker kit came from 440 source and it yielded 10.3 to 1 compression ratio, the dyno pull was done with 91 octane fuel
That's a VERY good and powerful setup and likely only cost a tiny bit more than the 451 Mopar in this video. The 400 is a VERY impressive platform for power without getting into anything super crazy or complicated. Did you record or detail your build anywhere? Who's stroker kit did you use?
455olds hail to the king
There are a few things in store for that Olds project not far down the line ;)
I really enjoyed your video, I’m not bias, I glad that you had time and effort to show us this, thanks.😀
I'm a Mopar guy. I'll take the 451 every time.
Gotta say of all of these things that Mopar is the one we were impressed most with, and especially afterwards once we realized it was hobbled during the resting. Great setup for a motor
What I am building is a 470 RB MoPar 10.5:1 compression with Trick Flow heads, roller cam and a tunnel ram with 2 750 Mighty Demons. I have a JW 727reverse manual valve body trans, 8" 4000 stall JW converter and a 4.10 Dana 60. Just a street car :)
Lol yup sounds like just a mild mannered street car right there! Tach goes one way, fuel gauge goes the other, and a smile grows on your face rapidly! ;)
The RB stuff topped with some good flowing heads is ALWAYS a great formula for major power. God be with those rear tires.
You did a great job of taking on what is usually a suicide mission of asking “Which is best?” lol!
You speak the truth! Tried to be as fair and impartial as possible :)
Big thumbs up. I really liked this BUT I hate the fact that you compared a 454 with High Performance heads to a Pontiac with poor flowing smog heads. Some BBC fanboys already have huge heads that don't need to get puffed up more by lopsided comparisons. The last BBC guy I raced talked all kinds of smack about my 400 Pontiac until I showed up to race him. He had more modifications than I had and better heads and he still refused to race me heads up without using his Nitrous. He still lost even with a 150 shot against my NA.
Well thanks for the view, the comment, and the thumbs up! Unfortunately this was a situation of "run what ya brung" as we had this 454 already going through a mild rebuild and figured it would be useful data. With that in mind, we still think the Poncho out punched the Chevy when you see what it did. Given the heads on the Chevy were considerably superior AND it had a roller setup... imagine what the Pontiac would do with those heads worked a little, and a full roller setup. Very likely would have not only out torqued the Chevy but out HP'd it as well. At least, that's our opinion :)
@@LucoreAuto, I totally understand. Let the BBC fanboys keep their superiority complex. I love to see them pay up every time they underestimate a Pontiac.
Love my 454 in my 1984 1/2 ton square body!!! LOTS OF FUN BURNOUTS 😎 Chevy power 👍
Hard to hate on the easy to build easy to use power of the 454 Chevy. Doesn't take a rocket surgeon or rich man to make them real tire killers!
The square bodies seem to look better & better as the years go by. I always love it when I see a well-kept one on the road. The Fords too!
We built a 400 Mopar motor, early industrial casting, kept the stock crank and rods, put the Truck Flow top end and roller cam in it and made 425hp and 450lbft torque on an engine dyno. I'm building the same 455 that you did with the 4x heads and a comp hydraulic cam, good to see that pontiac torque doesn't disappoint. I've also got a 502 Chevy with 1998 L29 Vortec heads and sequential injection efi I'm building with L21 coil near plug(LS) coils, should be a torque monster for my airstream motorhome. The last is my blown 540 with AFR 357 heads and Holley dominator efi with coil neat plug ignition also, I'm glad to see this test because not everything needs to be a high end build like my 540 to be a great engine, and not everyone wants a late hemi or LS motor in their classic car, with that kind of torque out of any of these motors they are going to be a blast with the correct gearing, good job, keep them coming, let's see what that power equates to quarter mile times.
Thanks for the view and response, we are definitely happy with the results we got on these things and they'll be QUITE fun once we get the rides but together! One thing that often gets lost in the hotrodding motor is how much DO you need versus can you make? Could we have built each of these to make more than 500hp? Sure, there's plenty of options and examples out there. But at what cost? And what ELSE needs upgraded to support that level of power? Before you know it the build has gone from a simple motor rebuild to an entire new car!
ALL the power isn't ALWAYS the answer!
you only made 425hp from all that? wtf...
You mentioned the LS' - my brother has an '09 Pontiac G8 - 6l all aluminum LS in a mid-sized 4 door sedan.
365 hp stock, he has put on exhaust, cold air intake and a chip. He now figures he's pushing 400 hp.
The car has 340 000 km on it (!) That's 210 000 miles. The other day he had it at 250 km/hour (155 mph) and it will throw you back in the seat easily.
So, yeah, "everyone" is running an LS, but they are FUN.
Oh they are DEFINITELY capable motors for sure, and there's a reason they are pretty much the kings of builds these days. They take a ton of abuse and keep right on roaring.
What's interesting is if you look at the dyno graph on that LS, typically it's MUCH different than old school muscle. They make similar numbers but usually a considerably different curve.
I have been into Pontiacs since the early 90's and built a few of them. But I also have Chevys and Mopars and now a stroker 351W. The older I get the more I love them all. You can never beat a Chevy for cheap power but the Mopar B and RB can make Big power relatively inexpensively. I seems you and I have arrived at similar conclusions. Great video. Thanks.
Thanks for the watch and comment, glad you enjoyed it! You are correct, there's a reason the BBC and SBC have ruled hotrodding for so long. Cheap easy available simple to make power. The Mopar stuff.. I see us dabbling a bit more into that down the line. This was a learning experience for us for sure, the NEXT motor for this thing will definitely be bigger AND better ;)
The 74 400 block is a better choice for a stroker the earlier block has stronger mains supports and you would make more power with the 400 heads with some minor port work 500 lb plus is easily achieved a set of trick flow or indy heads would put it in orbit stroker b engines have nearly insane power capability
There's definitely power left on the table in that Mopar once it swaps over to a good set of aluminum heads it'll be a whole new monster. For now though, it will be a HUGE change over the tired old 400 in there now!
But, that old tired one will likely live again some day as a 499 ;)
Finally have a spare set of cast iron water-jacketed marine exhaust manifolds on their way for the Olds, have been searching for a pair for well over a decade now.
Hi! First of all,thank you for making a very fair and subjective comparison video between all these engines. Real world,real wallet costs and results are appreciated. Secondly, I'm building a '76 Trans Am with basically the same Poncho engine. Craigslist '76 Y4 code 455 bored .030 over,stock crank,forged pistons and rods,etc.,etc. I have installed the engine,did a proper break-in with plenty of zinc additive for the flat tappet RV cam and it's pretty stout. However,I'm running the big 124cc smog heads temporarily to make sure the bottom end was good to go. I'm about to change the heads out for a set of 1974 5C/4 93cc units(same valve sizes as 124cc) fresh from the machine shop with 3 angle valve job and light porting. I expect these heads to put my compression up to between about 9.2-9.5:1. Just curious as to the size (cc's) of the 6X heads you used so I can get an idea of what to expect after the head swap. Thanks!
Philip cross, I believe they are 116 CC's, but I don't have my books handy right now, but I believe the 6x's are in the 90cc range.
@@jeffhartgers7284 Thank you--I appreciate it. I did the head swap since posting this comment,and I'm happy to say that the 93cc heads really woke that engine up. I also went with new pushrods and Comp Cams Roller tips with Polylocks. I wanted to go with a Jet Stage2 Quadrajet for carburation,but couldn't find what I wanted,so I stepped up to an Edelbrock 800 cfm carb with electric choke. All that,along with an Edelbrock Performer intake and Summit 2 1/2" exhaust is a strong combination for old school horsepower. I haven't dyno'd it yet,but seat-of-the-pants guesstimate is 420-440 HP at the crank.Love my big Poncho! Thanks again for the great video and info!
Even among gear heads there seems to be some "question " on is it a big block or small block.
Great video, though. Thanks for sharing.
Thanks for watching, glad you enjoyed! And as gear heads, isn't our favorite thing to do argue? ;)
Very nice 455 I have a 400 pontiac motor with number 62 heads runs great
you dont run aluminum heads "out of the box",especially pro comps
Oh you can be certain MANY people do, though it's certainly not advised.
@Austin Carlson yeah you build engines.
thanks for the warning
@Dave Micolichek I checked our Edelbrock Big Block heads and they were great. We port matched the intake to the heads and were done. Still never a good idea to install anything without a good inspection.
whats the damn oint of buying them assembled then? full of metal, shitty valve springs, etc....and people pay more?
I had 1971 Pontiac Bonneville, with the 455. Awesome engine with amazing performance even at high mileage. Only downside was gas mileage.
Well when fuel was only a few dimes per gallon it wasn't such a big deal, now... we try to measure in smiles per gallon instead ;)
Great video, keep up the great work!
Thank you, we'll do our best! You'll see all sorts of projects and things we work on hope you enjoy some of it!
Like your comments!! You are truly non biased!! And I am a pontiac guy!!
Dude! You missed the 455 Buick!!!
Unfortunately we didn't have one for building and testing purposes BUT, we will be testing a Buick 455 Stage 1 here shortly and will post it once we do!
Alright Buick guy! Video made just for you guys, goes live at 11:30am today!
A lot of people are running the 451 mopar setup at the local track. They are running aluminum heads and a lot of compression. They run really well. I run a 440 that we built in 98 when I just got out of high school. I ran out of money on the build, so I didn't get to do all the tricks I wanted too. As it is, it has 906 cast heads with 2.19 intake valves, not sure of the size of exhaust valves. The compression is around 10.1 with a small flat tappet lunati cam,stock duel plain intake and vacuum secondary 750 Holley and headers. I wanted to port a little on the heads and do a aluminum head, but the money ran out. With 4.56 gears and stock stall converter,she still kept up with my buddies small block Chevy strokers,that they spent a ton of more money than me.
It seems like there are quite a few 451s still running at tracks but they all seem to have been built YEARS ago like 80s and 90s, doesn't seem to be too popular for the modern hot rodder. Which, honestly makes sense, given how easily and cheaply you can pick up the 499 stroker kits. Your 440 even as it sits should be a serious bruiser and able to make gobs of power without spinning it up into the revs like your Chevy buddies likely are. Ideally we would have used a set of 906 heads but for the couple hundred dollars we would have spent on buying them, then rebuilding them, it just didn't make sense. This lil 451 will definitely see some additional upgrades in the not so distant future...the story isn't over yet!
Definitely keep an eye on the 451 Mopar build, there are some recent vidoes of it as we sort out more and more with that build and it's REALLY waking up now! Already starting to pencil in the next version of that build ;)
515 lbs of torque for the Pontiac! Awesome! And as the guy said, you can get a lot more HP and torque from the Pontiac with Edelbrock, roller lifters, rockers, RPM intake, and be prepared for tire ripping time. Believe me I know. But Pontiacs are expensive to build, believe me I know that too.
Thanks for the watch and cheering for team Poncho! We were definitely happy with the torque numbers it made, and making it so low in the rev range is going to be a BLAST! Well, the tires are going to hate it but we're going to love it :) As for upgrades beyond what it is... we'll see. Honestly this 455 will probably stay as is... there's a '68 LeMans 400 project coming up that will likely get a MUCH meaner motor! But that's for a future episode :)
i think id upgrade the rods first....
@@frigglebiscuit7484 Yep factory 455 crank, forged rods and forged pistions.
@@drcornelius8275 yessir!
Especially expensive these days compared to back in the '80s LOL.
Yep in that's what I'm doing building a 60 over 454 it will be a 468 roller going in a g body wit a 9 inch ford rearend
You can almost never go wrong with a big block Chevy up front and a Ford 9 inch out back. Doesn't matter the platform it's almost always a great combo.
Interesting comparison, Thanks for doing it. Having said that I take issue with one of your conclusions, As a "Pontiac guy" myself I have to say there is no way that Olds parts are cheaper and or more readily available than Pontiac parts. There were literally millions of firebirds alone built with Pontiac engines, Never mind all the Lemans/GTO's Grand prix's Ventura's etc. Because there are so many of those F body's still out there the demand for Pontiac parts is still quite high and so WAY more stuff is available than for an Oldsmobile. Off the top of my head I can name 7 different companies just making cylinder heads for the Pontiac engine, and some have multiple variants. Butler even lists 5 different models of aftermarket block's! The same absolutely cannot be said of Oldsmobile, not by a longshot. In order of popularity and parts availability it would have to go Chevy, Mopar, Pontiac, and then Olds.
Yes, within seconds you know this guy isn't a Pontiac guy.... "big block"
Here’s something most of y’all probably won’t believe. My mustang 2 has a high compression 2.8 lima 4 banger. Pumps out 280-300hp. Motor was originally a 2.5 for my families 150mph 2.5mod hydroplane. But once said class basically went away some years ago. Now. Motor sat in my barn until I came home from florida and found it was still there and the parents had gotten a 78 mustang 2 with a 2.3 lima.
Took her out and replaced it with the all aluminum high compression motor!
I have to admit a lot of the info went over my head but what I did understand was quite useful.
Kinda figured the Chevy would be the hands down winner but I wont lie, I was rooting for the Mopar. =)
Speaking of, I had *zero* clue you could make a 499 out of a 400, Hell I had never even heard of one. Hope y'all do one someday because I would love to see what kind of power that makes and what kind of reliability it would have.
Yeah being totally honest we had no idea there was so much potential in those "Junk smog" motors either. The old motor coming out of her car now will very likely come back to life with a 499 stroker kit in it... for... something. That 451 isn't done impressing yet there's a decent chance it goes back on an engine dyno for some improvements to the valve train which SHOULD allow it to RPM better
@@LucoreAuto I caught the valve float issue you were having there, heard it's a fairly common problem with some Mopar engines but I don't know the fix for it, wish I did. I do seem to recall a 360 that had the same problem and a Hi rise intake was at least part of the solution but that was 20 some years back...
Let me see if I got this right... she has a 2nd 400 that yer going to (eventually) do the 499 kit on? Or when she outgrows the 451 do the kit?
As I have mentioned I'm a hack mechanic at best (give me a proper manual and im good otherwise its the Braveheart scene with the crazed Irishman: 'The good Lord says yer fooked laddie!' and tools go airborne) but if she is already planning better aluminum heads wont she have to upgrade the valve train as well? And would that not likely solve the float issue?
Asking because im curious if going that route might not save a bit of cash over tiring to fix the valve float problem in the long term.
What kind of distributer is in the mopar engine?
All of them are running MSD Billet Distributors
@@LucoreAuto thanks for the info
@@brandonfults4827 very welcome thanks for the view and comment!
good test I enjoyed it . the olds surprised me a little on the top end there .
Thanks Mike! We for sure had some surprises testing all these things. The Olds and Pontiac coming in with VERY similar peak HP numbers was quite interesting, especially considered the Torker vs Performer
For a mild big block, I'd go Buick - dat thin wall casting is light, light, light. AL heads, AL intake, roller cam and you have a mild big block that can't be beat in terms of size+weight+power.
Hi, The weep hole on the Mopar water pump should be pointing to the ground. Oh well... time for ice cream!
The way this water pump is indexed it actually CAN'T be on the bottom, but typically speaking yes you are absolutely correct. There's a little shelf on the pump to move the fluid away from the belts instead of it falling straight down.
The LS6 is a factory high performance motor with a steel crank, rods, higher flow heads and bigger cam. They came in Corvettes and SS Chevelles and SS Camaros. The three other engines are really not comparable. A fairer comparison for Pontiac would be a Ram Air IV, a 455 HO or 455 SD motor. For Buick a 1970 455 Stage 1. For Oldsmobile, a rocket 455 would be a good candidate and for Mopar, a stroked 440. Just some thoughts.
Right on, brother...:)
So basically what this proves is that if you use the right parts for what you need for your build parameters you will make a lot of usable power no matter what engine you choose. The better it breathes the more power you make, it's all about where you need the power, what RPM range. I think a good Mopar 440 will be better than an Olds or Pontiac and cheaper to build per HP.
There are definitely some interesting lessons to learn here, at least we think so. A 440 is definitely a capable platform, and a lot of the same pieces we used on this motor would be similar to what that would be using. Two of the big benefits for us doing this with a 400 versus a 440 are the lack of many people actually SHOWING this kind of build, and the reduced rotating mass SHOULD let it rev further and faster than a similar displacement 440.
Whats better I think depends on what it's going in to. Any of these engines can be built enough to fry the tires on the street. If you have a 2 door muscle car and you can't afford to adequately build the stock engine, sell it to someone who can. For 40 years I've been watching people putting Chevy 350's or other blocks into Pontiacs because it's cheaper, and it takes a little knowledge to build a stock Pontiac correctly. But now we have Butlers and others and many aftermarket parts so there is no excuse now :)
Why does the Oldsmobile have oil running out of the valve cover during dyno run? Missing the oil fill cap?
The oil had been a little over filled and the breather cap was off during the run. Nothing to be worried about :)
a Cadillac 472 should be included
Would love to show one of those off unfortunately don't have access to one!
It would decimate them all
@Dave Micolichek we are hunting for a 500 to build as we speak actually! :)
@@JRRowen-ht6du we're working on it!
yeah good luck finding them. I had a 1972 years ago It had some good get up and go for the tank it was in. I wanted to swap it into my Monte Carlo, but didn't have the skills at the time.
What do you recommend for a 427 11-1 pistons and a muther thumper hydrollic roller cam big block for aftermarket heads for street/ strip auto shows should I go with rectangular port or oval port
Love that pontiac sound!!!!!!!
It certainly sounds good, and I can't WAIT to get it back in the '70 LeMans to hear it rumbling through some pipes! Non-Car people just don't get it, sound is IMPORTANT!
@@LucoreAuto I have a 72 Catalina convertible and I love it.
@@brucenaylor2043 Ohhhh that's a WHOLE lot of Sexy Pontiac! With some good rumble what a great summer cruising car!
We Mopar guys use to put a 440 crank in the larger bore 400 block netting a 451 , Netting over 500ft lbs of torque " and pulled a 3800 lb car into the 12's 💥
That's exactly what this was, a cut for 440 crank and rods with some custom pistons
I would have liked to see a Ford 460 in this comparison. I assume the opportunity to do this comparison just happened to come up with those particular engines being built and ready for dyno at the same time. Great video.
You are pretty much spot on with this, we just happened to have multiple parallel projects moving forward at the same time with very similar builds. Unfortunate the Big Block Ford scene just isn't a popular option for hot rodding these days, at least not around us. We may still be able to eventually get our hands on one and move a build forward but... we'll see. Actually DO need to make another followup with this though to address things with the Mopar.
I think the Ford 429 would be a better candidate
Ok, so what do you suggest I do with the '72 Olds 455 & its original Turbo Hydramatic 400 Transmission? Should I sell it or worth rebuilding it?
Just needed a decent 455 buick to complete the contest!
We tested one on a chassis dyno right after this, just didn't have one out of a car to include in a head to head engine dyno contest. Definitely give that a watch!
I was a machinist @ Total Automotive Engineering in Detroit Mi. from 1994 until 2002 and we had an employee racing a 500+ in 440 running iron heads and he dyno'd over 600 hp. And a 400 Pontiac we did for a fellow employee, we got 560 lbs/ft off torque and 400 hp. (at only 2800 rpm it made 463 lbs ft of torque!)
That’s Eldelbrock heads. Butler Performance is a great resource for Pontiac motors, and so is Kaufman. Love my Pontiac.
Eventually this 455 MAY wear a set of heads from Butler or Kaufman.. it doesn't really NEED them but would certainly improve performance even more. Full disclosure there's a '68 LeMans waiting in the wings for a 400-461 stroker setup that will be much more a race car... you'll see in upcoming videos :)
Really miss my 2 455 Pontiac motors. I think about em all the time. I sold my trans am and all my Pontiac stuff around 2009 and it seems like right after that the prices skyrocketed on them. Now I have a factory yellow 78 Z28 California car with a 327 someone swapped in. It run really reliable but will not shred tires from a roll like the Pontiacs.😐 live and learn I guess
@@midsouth2strokes185 they definitely have gone up in value over the past few years as it becomes harder and harder to find an early generation buildable 455! Although the lack of good 455 cores has lead to some really great builds out of the 400s that are as strong if not stronger. Smaller main journal size and you can get similar displacement for not a lot of work, and off the shelf parts!
Hopefully you are still enjoying your Z28, definitely a great car BUT... totally different kind of tire melter compared to the Big Ole Pontiac torque factory!
Don't forget the awesome CV1 heads for a Pontiac !!!
the cv-1 by rolland racing as well as the ra5 heads by dci motorsports and ra5.com are badass choices as well
Three displacements were available during production: 401 cu in (6.6 L), 477 cu in (7.8 L) and 534 cu in (8.8 L); but however large, the 534 was very much smaller than the 1,100-cubic-inch (18.0 L) Ford GAA all aluminum 32 valve DOHC V8 (introduced during WW2), which was the largest displacement gasoline engine ever ...
Good video. I appreciate your attempt at a true apples to apples comparison. The horsepower, and torque numbers come in pretty much where I expected. I was certain the Pontiac would edge out the competition in Torque. No surprise the Chevy had peak horsepower. The flow capabilities of the big block Chevy heads are in another world, in comparison to the other engines. The Pontiac induction system was very well suited to the engine. I feel the Oldsmobile would have benefited from a dual plane intake. To be honest a factory cast iron intake ( non EGR ) is hard to beat on a Oldsmobile. I was disappointed in the Mopar. First I would like to have seen you test a stock stroke 440. You did the Mopar no favors with those cylinder heads. Better ( 915. or 906 ) heads would have yielded slightly better results. The real issue was the valve float. I was expecting 440 H P , and 495 torque from the Mopar. Again good video, reminds people that on the street Torque is king
Thank you for the view and well thought out comment! Your thinking is definitely in line with ours, and quite honestly WE would love to see the Olds run on a different intake as well to see what difference it would make. Unfortunately, engine building and dyno time costs money!
With the Mopar unfortunately it was a case of work with what we've got. There's NO doubt if we had a slightly better set of iron heads and got rid of the valve float ... with the extra breath and RPM it very likely would have been in at least 2nd place for horsepower. The question asked in the video is a serious one though. Would you? Would you spend $300 on a set of 906 heads, $1000-1200 having them built, and run them? Or spend essentially the same money for a GOOD set of aluminum heads that are in every way superior?
@@LucoreAuto Thank you for your response. I completely understand, the constraints of time, and money. I also agree, on the big block Mopar. Unless you are doing a real " low budget " build, or a " correct " restoration. There is really no reason to not spring for aftermarket aluminum heads. They are superior in every way. The Oldsmobile, and Pontiac aluminum heads are a improvement over stock, but not a huge difference in flow, big difference in weight.There is soooo much that can be done with the Pontiac heads. Your test just scratched the surface. The main benefit of aluminum heads on the big block Chevrolet over factory big valve, rectangular port cylinder heads IS WEIGHT ! Bust a gut lifting those stock hunks of iron. Got a little long winded. Thanks
@@johnringel9892 i bowl ported my big block mopar motorhome heads, put new valves in, and had a valve job done for far less than 1k. i cant justify aluminum head prices, especially assembled ones that come with crap springs and full of metal.
@@frigglebiscuit7484 I recall, I did say something about using iron heads on a budget build. I am well acquainted with the fact that there are no " use them right out of the box " aluminum heads. My experience is they all need to be disassembled, and cleaned. Check the cave guides, maybe clean up the valve seating. Most you will want to invest in quality valve spring, locks, and retainers. Items you were going to replace anyway on the stock heads. With all of that said. When you look at all that you gain. I still maintain it makes sense to invest in aftermarket aluminum heads. That's my 2 cents. Thanks for your response
@@johnringel9892 there's a CHANCE we may pull the Poncho heads at some point and have them ported then run it again, just to see the TRUE difference in power compared to all the urban legends. We'll see. The Mopar... we'll never spend another dime on those things! For the $1300 we spent in fully rebuilding them, you can basically buy a set of good aluminums have them checked and replace the junk parts ... and only be a st a LITTLE more money for a FAR better head!
Great test. Ty. I hear the Ford guys. Run a 1970 -71 Lincoln 460 with the dove-c heads. One very powerful engine that is overlooked.
Thank you for the watch and comment! We hear them as well and wish we could have included them in this test/video unfortunately there just aren't many people building BBF projects these days. Most people building hot rods or muscle cars with for power are doing 351 or 302 power, or if they're looking for speed and modern go Coyote. We're certainly open to building one for a customer though, there's definitely power and data to be found!
A well kept secret 😉
Oldsmobile. Yeah.
It definitely held its own!
you need to look at a olds 403. had one in a Buick regal when I wan in high school. about the time the mustang 5.0 came out was blowing there doors off .
What about buick 455 stage 1
We actually DO have a Buick 455 Stage 1 that's sitting in our '65 Buick GS, unfortunately that's a running and driving car it didn't make sense to pull the heart out of it just to test :(
HOWEVER we WILL have that car on the chassis dyno here in a couple weeks which will absolutely film. Should be able to give us some strong numbers to compare with these 4.
@@LucoreAuto thank you ill be watching ur videos i got 2 68 rivieras one is a gs the 430 where tired so i installed a 455 in both cars
@@AlexRamirez-lf1wj you're into Rivs huh!? Well definitely stay tuned, we actually have a couple of those sitting here waiting for their chance to show off ;) They are 63-64s and will be making appearances sometime in the very near future!
Buick video goes live in about 10 minutes!
All take my Oldsmobile 1970 455 , if I remember right it had fr factory 510 ft lbs torque from factory I installed it in a 1966 cutlass S.....man I wish I still had it I drive a 1973 C10 truck now day's
if you have valve float at 5k you got somthing really wrong with your spring setup.
Unfortunately the springs are being overpowered, definitely not an ideal situation. There's also an issue that the cheap SBI valves that were used in the rebuild are HEAVY compared to what would ideally be in there.
Knowing the cast iron heads will only be on this motor for a reasonably short time as she gets used to the new setup and power levels, it just wasn't worth the money and frustration to keep fighting it.
Why have the radiator hoses hooked up if ur not going to spin the water pump, either belt of electric drive??
You can get 496-502 cubes out of a standard deck big block chevy pretty easily
The Chevy is certainly well known as being able knock on that 500 CI mark, and rather commonly in the hotrod world. Taking these B series Mopars up that far is something that's much less well known, just something we felt needed brought to peoples attention. But, hard to argue with the 50+ years of success the BBC has shown powering... well pretty much anything and everything!
@@LucoreAuto oh ok, you said it has to be done with a tall deck motor so i didn't realize what you were saying i guess.👍 we're on the same page now.
@@andy347495 if I wasn't clear I apologize, there was so much data to discuss in this video my brain was a bit mush by the end!
you can get 512 ci out of a big block mopar easy too.
@@frigglebiscuit7484 Indeed you can, the 440s have a CRAZY potential for strokers. Even these 400s are able to get to that 500ci mark which... you MAY see in a build in the not toooooo distant future ;)
Exactly the reason I love Mopars. Everyone had a Chevy. It’s like another Chevy nice. It’s kinda like rooting for the underdog? Nothing wrong with any of them. I actually have built them with my friends. I just don’t want the same thing as everyone else. To each his own.
Can we get a 472 or 500 caddy?
The unsung/underdog of all big blocks.
Stuffed afew into some camaros and firechickens over the years,made awesome drag cars. Haha
We are actually hunting for a buildable 500 Cadi since so many people have been asking for them, not quite as available as they used to be! Unfortunately lots of people were stuffing them into drag cars! ;)
We may be setting up a 500 Cubic Inch battle for the somewhat near future sooooo we'll see what we can find!
Awesome..I can't wait.
In the mid 70s to early 80s, people never thought about the big ol Cadillacs,mind you Cadillac never advertised their engine nunbers so it was always turned away... we used to go to wrecking yards and look for old caddy Limos or hearsts and rip out out the engines. Cheap horsepower and combined into lightweight car, toss on some headers and throw some timing at it, and off ya go. Fast, cheap horsepower back then, and the look on peoples faces when a crappy old Oldsmobile omega with a 472 caddy in it smokes their brand new Buick GN.. hahah
@@mikehunt9894 It's definitely the ultimate in large motor in a small package stuffing the powerplant out of a land barge into something.. well anything that wasn't barely able to fit in a garage. Unfortunately the days of easily finding those monsters are over so we are going to be a bit more out of pocket to pick one up. THEN we have to figure out what they heck to put it in!
@@LucoreAuto I've always wanted to put one in a Lincoln. Make some fanboys cry a little. Hahaha but, it does make sense in many ways. Lol.😉
@@mikehunt9894 A landboat landspeed car might be kinda fun? ;)